history stuff (was What is a Goth?)
David Gerard
:I seem to recall the Batcave painted as quite a BD place. Well, I get that
:from the Mercer book (Number 2), and that was the early 80s - but from
:watching a video I have of Top Of The Pop/ Old Grey WhistleTest stuff,
:punk/jeans/t-shirts seems to have been fairly prominent.
:And the Sioux/proto-Pat Morrison look. And The Hussey look.
:You never know, this thread might help the Scathe History page.
Indeed!
One thing that should be mentioned [1] is the raincoats. Not the band
the Raincoats, but the anoraks who were fans of that dark stuff before
it was called Goth.
There's a deep dark secret of goth that no-one ever mentions but that
you should know, kids: your subcultural ancestors dressed *utterly
crap*.
Ever seen pics of Joy Division? Dull-looking lot, weren't they? Their
fans dressed like this too.
Go back that far and what became goth did *not* look good. At all.
What else could the early history do with a mention of ... the
Birthday Party. The Melbourne post-punk scene was an utterly
derivative thing (mostly of the UK, slightly of New York punk), but
one thing they did *damn* well - being from Melbourne - was to be arty
wankers. And the Birthday Party carried that particular superpower
with them on the journey to the UK. And got a lot of people dressing
up, IMO.
YMMV of course.
[crossposted to u.p.g for your derision]
[1] I realise that the correct answer to 'you should put this on your
page' is 'write a page on it yourself'. I'm slightly tempted ...
--
http://thingy.apana.org.au/~fun/ http://xenu.netizen.com.au/
ALERT! Australian government attempts to censor Australian internet out of
existence! - See http://www.efa.org.au/ for the gory details ...
Alexander
>Ever seen pics of Joy Division? Dull-looking lot, weren't they?
Nope, seen[1] the Live video[2] though...
More casual than casual... bland t-shirt and blue jeans in most
cases[3]... pretty short naff haircuts... about as Goth as Maggie Thatcher
really.
[1] Read: Borrowed[4] from Uncle Ben
[2] "Here Are The Young Men" - Fact 37
[3] The video is a bit dire and it's very difficult to make things out
clearly.
[4] Had to say it... if I didn't, then he would :>
NP: Orff - Carmina Burana (Cleveland Orchestra)
--
~Alexander : Wall of male Gothness {Cat}
Next DJing at Malice Underground - 11th May 1999
And Club Tenebrae - 21st May 1999
URL: http://www.alexander.darkwave.org.uk/ ICQ: 6165829
Michael Johnson
>Greylock? <Hyd...@hotmail.gov> wrote:
>:I seem to recall the Batcave painted as quite a BD place. Well, I get that
>:from the Mercer book (Number 2), and that was the early 80s - but from
>:watching a video I have of Top Of The Pop/ Old Grey WhistleTest stuff,
>:punk/jeans/t-shirts seems to have been fairly prominent.
>:And the Sioux/proto-Pat Morrison look. And The Hussey look.
>:You never know, this thread might help the Scathe History page.
There were masses of Siouxsie lookalikes in London at one time. This
was, I suppose, around the time of 'JuJu' when Siouxsie (arguably) was
at her 'most-goth'. I knew several of 'em. I once suggested they
should form a band and call it 'Siouxsie and the Siouxsies'. They gave
me long, cold stares....
I'm told (by someone who'd actually asked Siouxsie about this) that
the main reason Siouxsie has a bit of a downer on goths is that she
genuinely feels the goffscene ripped off her image! Which probably
isn't *quite* the way it was, but I see her point.....
>One thing that should be mentioned [1] is the raincoats. Not the band
>the Raincoats, but the anoraks who were fans of that dark stuff before
>it was called Goth.
True! I rememer the UK music press was always taking the piss out of
fans of such bands as Joy Div & Echo & the Bunnymen (and even Cabaret
Voltaire) as 'the long mac brigade'....
>There's a deep dark secret of goth that no-one ever mentions but that
>you should know, kids: your subcultural ancestors dressed *utterly
>crap*.
Some of us still do! But, yep, this is true. Gig audiences in ye olden
days were definitely *not* the dressed-up crowd which is usual to see
today. I suppose this may have something to do with the fact that
early-goff was much more a part of the 'general' alterno-scene than it
is now, so the bands got a 'general' alterno-audience. These days,
goth is pretty much out on a limb by itself (or, stuck in a
frustrating little ghetto, if you want to be cynical about it...) so
it's evolved much more of its own style. Like those tortoises on the
Galapagos Islands. Or something....
Similar thing happened with punk. Although the bands might have been
quite stylish (although many were not...I mean, the Lurkers, anybody?)
a glance at photos of early punk gigs will typically show hordes of
long-hair-and-flares types in the crowd. I recall John Lydon, in
classic put-down mode, critcising the accuracy of the Pistols'
boat-trip scene in the film 'Sid & Nancy'. The audience in the film
was made up of an 80s-punk rentacrowd hired off the streets of London,
and was therefore quite 'punk-looking'. Which, apparently, wasn't how
it really was. Lydon said, 'There were *two* people with spiky hair on
that boat - one of them was me, and one of them was Sid!'
The moral of all this is, I s'pose....evolution happens. Then history
gets re-written....
>What else could the early history do with a mention of ... the
>Birthday Party. The Melbourne post-punk scene was an utterly
>derivative thing (mostly of the UK, slightly of New York punk), but
>one thing they did *damn* well - being from Melbourne - was to be arty
>wankers. And the Birthday Party carried that particular superpower
>with them on the journey to the UK. And got a lot of people dressing
>up, IMO.
Given half a chance (and a captive audience) I have been known to
vehemently assert that goth, in a nutshell, evolved out of the 'arty'
end of punk. In the 80s, when Brit-punk basically degenerated into
bands of well'ard skin'eads, shouting (I blame Garry Bushell...) those
of us who were, by and large, punks but didn't like the Oi! stuff,
kind of gravitated to the arty-farties and the weirdos such as Bauhaus
and Alien Sex Fiend......and, although it might seem like there's an
element of 'strange bedfellows' here, the Birthday Party were
definitely seen as being in with this crowd. I had a blond Nick Cave
hairstyle once. Evidence is (hidden) on http://www.nemesis.to .....
I'm 35. <sigh> And it shows.....
--
Uncle Nemesis > Michael Johnson > un...@globalnet.co.uk
Nemesis Promotions - 20 years of stupid hairstyles, and counting...
http://www.nemesis.to
Pete Scathe
>
>One thing that should be mentioned [1] is the raincoats. Not the band
>the Raincoats, but the anoraks who were fans of that dark stuff before
>it was called Goth.
>
Not that I ever owned one, of course...
<hastily deletes picture of long coat from Haircuts Page>
>There's a deep dark secret of goth that no-one ever mentions but that
>you should know, kids: your subcultural ancestors dressed *utterly
>crap*.
>
Well, most of them... and we're talking pre-82 here... after then it got
distinctly glammier...
>Ever seen pics of Joy Division? Dull-looking lot, weren't they?
Though they did have a tendency to dress in black... not that this made
them any less dull...
> Their
>fans dressed like this too.
>
<cough>
Er, yes.
>Go back that far and what became goth did *not* look good. At all.
>
Well... back in Those Days it's debatable whether there was a goth
movement at all. The bands were there, but the subculture had yet to de
defined.
>What else could the early history do with a mention of ... the
>Birthday Party.
I do mention them! Lots! Because they were great!
> The Melbourne post-punk scene was an utterly
>derivative thing (mostly of the UK, slightly of New York punk), but
>one thing they did *damn* well - being from Melbourne - was to be arty
>wankers. And the Birthday Party carried that particular superpower
>with them on the journey to the UK. And got a lot of people dressing
>up, IMO.
>
Hmmm... I'm not sure about that at all. OK, so I can be seen on my
Haircuts Page sporting a very bad Nick Cave hairstyle, but if I had to
point out major influences on early goth fashion, Siouxsie, Bauhaus and
the Batcave would rank far higher than the Birthday Party...
>
>[1] I realise that the correct answer to 'you should put this on your
>page' is 'write a page on it yourself'. I'm slightly tempted ...
>
Go on! Then I can nick it! :)
--
Pete Scathe (Next Resurgence: 6th June)
club info & daft haircuts: www.scathe.demon.co.uk/
Pete Scathe
>In article <373577aa...@alpha.news.global.net.uk>,
> un...@globalnet.co.uk (Michael Johnson) wrote:
>> Some of us still do! But, yep, this is true. Gig audiences in ye olden
>> days were definitely *not* the dressed-up crowd which is usual to see
>> today.
>
In one of those rare episodes where I actually made sense... :)
> As far
>back as I can remember in the early 80s hair was big, make-up was b&w
>and clothes were not as elaborate as today.
Yup- that's pretty much it.
There were people who had very elaborate clothes, but they were the
exception rather than the rule.
> I had a cousin who was into
>goth (at the time the term was 'dark' in Greece) and I remember it was
>taking her ages to backcomb her hair! And we talk about BIG hair :)
Very true- back then much of the effort people nowadays put into clothes
went on hairstyles.
Much cheaper :) [1]
>Today most people can get away with extensions or any kind of coloured
>hair.
I'm still not sure when the MLP/extensions thing came in.
It goes back a long way- one of my friends had masses of black & white
extensions back in about 1983.
But I still can't figure out when it became Standard Slime Gothkit, and
later on part of the uniform of the Identikit Techno-Goth Hordes, along
with PVC & Smegg Boots...
> I am not against today's dress 'codes', it just seems to me that
>people nowadays pay more attention to the clothes/make-up than the
>music itself.
>
<furious nodding of agreement>
Yes.
Sadly, a band is also more likely to be noticed if they have an image
which "fits in", too...
>> Similar thing happened with punk. Although the bands might have been
>> quite stylish (although many were not...I mean, the Lurkers, anybody?)
>> a glance at photos of early punk gigs will typically show hordes of
>> long-hair-and-flares types in the crowd.
>
>I was not around at the time, but I have read an awful lot of books on
>punk, its roots, the bands etc...and I agree with you. Mohawks for
>example were not very common in the early days of punk
I think they started getting popular around 79/80...
>
>Olga/Nef- who is not ashamed to show her punk roots
Another one for the punk night! :)
--
Pete Scathe (Next Resurgence: 6th June)
[1] Depending, of course, on how high-maintenance your hairstyle was... I was
getting through more than one can a week at one stage... not to mention the
electricity bill from all that crimping :)
Pete Scathe
>On 8 May 1999 15:05:02 GMT, David Gerard wrote:
>
>
Good god.
I must get some pictures up on the Goth History Site.
I really must.
Now I have a new scanner, I have no excuse...
> seen[1] the Live video[2] though...
>
>More casual than casual... bland t-shirt and blue jeans in most
>cases[3]... pretty short naff haircuts... about as Goth as Maggie Thatcher
>really.
>
Although Joy Division had a tendency to wear black, and long coats, they
didn't look especially goth- but neither did several other early goth
bands, like Play Dead.
It should be remembered that Joy Division were not about image (in the
sense of what they looked like themselves), they were about music.
--
Pete Scathe (Next Resurgence: 6th June)
club info & daft haircuts: www.scathe.demon.co.uk/
Pete Scathe
>
>There were masses of Siouxsie lookalikes in London at one time. This
>was, I suppose, around the time of 'JuJu' when Siouxsie (arguably) was
>at her 'most-goth'.
About 1981...
> I knew several of 'em. I once suggested they
>should form a band and call it 'Siouxsie and the Siouxsies'. They gave
>me long, cold stares....
>
...in a patented "long practice in the mirror" Siouxsie-Ice-Queen kinda
way, no doubt :)
>I'm told (by someone who'd actually asked Siouxsie about this) that
>the main reason Siouxsie has a bit of a downer on goths is that she
>genuinely feels the goffscene ripped off her image! Which probably
>isn't *quite* the way it was, but I see her point.....
>
Definitely.
Before the Batcave, Siouxsie was probably the biggest single influence
on the goth look, with Bauhaus a fair way behind. Even the Cure were
influenced by Siouxsie...
>f...@thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) wrote
>>One thing that should be mentioned [1] is the raincoats. Not the band
>>the Raincoats, but the anoraks who were fans of that dark stuff before
>>it was called Goth.
>
>True! I rememer the UK music press was always taking the piss out of
>fans of such bands as Joy Div & Echo & the Bunnymen (and even Cabaret
>Voltaire) as 'the long mac brigade'....
>
Usually castigating them for being dour & depressing- sound familiar?
Though the modern musical parallel for the "long mac brigade" would
probably be more the New Wave of New Grave, such as Marion, Strangelove,
Radiohead... and, er, the Bunnymen...
>Gig audiences in ye olden
>days were definitely *not* the dressed-up crowd which is usual to see
>today. I suppose this may have something to do with the fact that
>early-goff was much more a part of the 'general' alterno-scene than it
>is now, so the bands got a 'general' alterno-audience.
Yup. Also, in the early scene there was no defined goth style- that
didn't really come till after the Batcave.
Unless you count Siouxsie...
>
>The moral of all this is, I s'pose....evolution happens. Then history
>gets re-written....
>
And we eldergoffs have to try & unwrite it again... hence the History
page... which I should really be doing more of...
>
>Given half a chance (and a captive audience) I have been known to
>vehemently assert that goth, in a nutshell, evolved out of the 'arty'
>end of punk.
Yup!
> In the 80s, when Brit-punk basically degenerated into
>bands of well'ard skin'eads, shouting (I blame Garry Bushell...)
It wasn't only the Oi! lot, though, there were the anarcho-Crass brigade
too, who were essentially forerunners of todays crusties/envirionmental
protesters.
Unfortunately I was never smelly enough to fit in properly with them :)
(I have entertaining memories of the punk squats in Bath... there was no
running water... "So how do you go to the loo?", I asked. "We piss out
the window" they replied[1]. "So what if you need a dump?" "Don't
ask...")
> those
>of us who were, by and large, punks but didn't like the Oi! stuff,
>kind of gravitated to the arty-farties and the weirdos such as Bauhaus
>and Alien Sex Fiend......and, although it might seem like there's an
>element of 'strange bedfellows' here, the Birthday Party were
>definitely seen as being in with this crowd.
Well, back then it didn't seem strange at all, though it might do now...
(certainly the Birthday Party sound nothing like any modern goth group I
can think of... which is a shame...)
--
Pete Scathe (Next Resurgence: 6th June)
[1] And this was a *girl* talking...
Greylock?
dance the two-step and proclaim:
>These days, goth is pretty much out on a limb by itself (or, stuck in a
>frustrating little ghetto, if you want to be cynical about it...)
You are Mick Mercer AICM$5
(That is a Mercer quote, isn't it?)
>Given half a chance (and a captive audience) I have been known to
>vehemently assert that goth, in a nutshell, evolved out of the 'arty'
>end of punk.
Can't say I'd argue with that assessment, although I wasn't there at the time.
I do have an interesting article on the early Melbourne goth scene which I
typed in, and will post to nsg once I get a connection to that group. It's
very interesting.
-----
H*ydn
breaking apart like I'm made of glass again
Cat
<snip>
> I actually had this discussion with Pete Scathe the other day. As far
> back as I can remember in the early 80s hair was big, make-up was b&w
> and clothes were not as elaborate as today.
<snip>
80's street fashion books also show 1980's Goth to have a lot more color,
especially featured colour. This is, of course somewhat subjective. Were
Goths photographed, or simply the media ideal of Goth? I'm too young to
remember the olden days! *G*.
<snip>
> I was not around at the time, but I have read an awful lot of books on
> punk, its roots, the bands etc...and I agree with you. Mohawks for
> example were not very common in the early days of punk (whereas now
> mohawk=punk and every proper punk must have one), neither was spiky
> hair.
<snip>
What I do know is that in the early days of Punk gel hadn't been invented
*horror*. I'm told they used to use concocted mixtured of egg
white/suger/fruit juice and smelt like walking ki ora cartons....Is this
true or is the innocence of youth being abused??
The changes I have observed on the scene over the last 3 years mostly
concern attitude. Many clubs have lost the 'can't smile or my face might
crack' atmosphere. Sometimes it seems there is less elegance and plain
courtesy now...perhaps the advent of Industrial has made us move into the
postmodern age, with color and new thought, and yesterday not being soon
enough. 'Open your eyes and see, these are the 90's 90's', I'd rather be a
throw back to the 80's than a throw up from the 90's!
Cat >^..^<
Make sure that the thing you're living for is worth dying for -Myers-
Michael Voase
Michael Johnson wrote:
[bits snipped]
> I'm told (by someone who'd actually asked Siouxsie about this) that
> the main reason Siouxsie has a bit of a downer on goths is that she
> genuinely feels the goffscene ripped off her image! Which probably
> isn't *quite* the way it was, but I see her point.....
>
But Siouxsie wasn't the only one to dress like that before the 'look' became
adopted more widely - just the most well known. Pauline Murray (Penatration)
wore similar outfits. And who used to play in a band with her ? Yes one Mr W
Hussey.
[snip]
>Greylock? <Hyd...@hotmail.gov> wrote:
> >There's a deep dark secret of goth that no-one ever mentions but that
> >you should know, kids: your subcultural ancestors dressed *utterly
> >crap*.
>
I never did !
[back to MJ]
>
> Some of us still do! But, yep, this is true. Gig audiences in ye olden
> days were definitely *not* the dressed-up crowd which is usual to see
> today. I suppose this may have something to do with the fact that
> early-goff was much more a part of the 'general' alterno-scene than it
> is now, so the bands got a 'general' alterno-audience.
That is distintly what I remember from the very earily 80's - until (for some
strange reason) the JMC came along - not that Iam alluding that JMC were the
first goth band or anything - but they were the first band I saw (84 or 85?)
that had a predominatly 'goth' dressed audiance.
> Similar thing happened with punk. Although the bands might have been
> quite stylish (although many were not...I mean, the Lurkers, anybody?)
I'll see your Lurkers and raise with Jonney Moped :)
>
> a glance at photos of early punk gigs will typically show hordes of
> long-hair-and-flares types in the crowd.
The Buzzcocks - lots of naff brown clothes in thier videos.
Actually something that I don't think anybody has mentioned yet and that is
there was (is) a group who *always* wore black clothes from the mid-late 70's
onwards - Stranglers fans. The greneral trend towards black was commented upon a
number of times in the band mag 'Strangled'. Talk about Siouxsie being miffed !
Michael.
Michael Voase
Pete Scathe wrote:
[bits snipped]
>
> Before the Batcave, Siouxsie was probably the biggest single influence
> on the goth look, with Bauhaus a fair way behind. Even the Cure were
> influenced by Siouxsie...
>
Only 'cos Bob was scared of her ! 'The Wicked Witch' or something he calls
her ?
>
> >
> >The moral of all this is, I s'pose....evolution happens. Then history
> >gets re-written....
> >
> And we eldergoffs have to try & unwrite it again... hence the History
> page... which I should really be doing more of...
>
Yep - get on with it ;)
Michael
RikF
Pete Scathe <pe...@scathe.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
> >There's a deep dark secret of goth that no-one ever mentions but that
> >you should know, kids: your subcultural ancestors dressed *utterly
> >crap*.
> >
> Well, most of them... and we're talking pre-82 here... after then it got
> distinctly glammier...
^^^^^^^^
Ahhh, you mock us, but you *need* us! ;o)
RikF
--------------------
Get your lipstick fix at http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/glammetal
Chrissy
> There's a deep dark secret of goth that no-one ever mentions but that
> you should know, kids: your subcultural ancestors dressed *utterly
> crap*.
>
> Ever seen pics of Joy Division? Dull-looking lot, weren't they? Their
> fans dressed like this too.
Hey, speak for yourself. I've always looked good. There's never been a
generic goth look, you know. Isn't that the point?
Miffed,
--Chrissy
URL: http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/4010
Mail to: zana...@innocent.com
"Exuberance is Beauty" - William Blake.
Chrissy
[punks]
> What I do know is that in the early days of Punk gel hadn't been invented
> *horror*. I'm told they used to use concocted mixtured of egg
> white/suger/fruit juice and smelt like walking ki ora cartons....Is this
> true or is the innocence of youth being abused??
Nah, we used toothpaste. Minty fresh.
Are goths just recycled punks? Hmm, interesting, that. I suppose I am,
if I agree to a label. The difference, to my eye, is the refreshing lack
of aggression - quite possibly a product of the evolution.
--Chrissy
"No bird soars too high,
if he soars with his own wings." - William Blake.
Michael Johnson
>Nef <Nef...@hotmail.com> wrote
>> I had a cousin who was into
>>goth (at the time the term was 'dark' in Greece) and I remember it was
>>taking her ages to backcomb her hair! And we talk about BIG hair :)
>Very true- back then much of the effort people nowadays put into clothes
>went on hairstyles.
One of my main memories of the 80s is of travelling by the District
Line to Embankment station on a Sunday for the regular alterno-gigs
which happened at the Lyceum. The District Line trains were quite new
at the time, and had glossy varnished wooden floors (they *still* have
wooden floors, but the glossy varnish is now a distant memory...)
I can still recall the mingled aromas of varnish and..... Boots
own-brand hairsprayon all those 'big' hairstyles! Don't believe the
hype about Aquanet and all that - Boots own-brand was the early-goff's
hairspray of choice!
(Except, being poor, I used, er, soap....)
There was a time when I had unfeasibly big hair, akin to the style
sported by Wayne 'man of fashion' Hussey in his First & Last & Always
sleeve photo. There are no pix of this style at its maximum size on
the secret 'hairstyles' page on the Nemesis website, because.....
well, I looked like a tosser, frankly. But at the time I fondly
believed I was pretty darn cool....
>>I was not around at the time, but I have read an awful lot of books on
>>punk, its roots, the bands etc...and I agree with you. Mohawks for
>>example were not very common in the early days of punk
>I think they started getting popular around 79/80...
I blame Wattie out of The Exploited!
--
Uncle Nemesis > Michael Johnson > un...@globalnet.co.uk
Nemesis Promotions - now with *small* hair
http://www.nemesis.to
Michael Johnson
>>These days, goth is pretty much out on a limb by itself (or, stuck in a
>>frustrating little ghetto, if you want to be cynical about it...)
>You are Mick Mercer AICM$5
>(That is a Mercer quote, isn't it?)
Oh dear.. I do hope not..... ;-)
--
Uncle Nemesis > Michael Johnson > un...@globalnet.co.uk
Nemesis Promotions - insert default slogan here
http://www.nemesis.to
Whisky Dave
Pete Scathe <pe...@scathe.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:HLBbI7AT...@scathe.demon.co.uk...
> Nef <Nef...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
> > As far
> >back as I can remember in the early 80s hair was big, make-up was b&w
> >and clothes were not as elaborate as today.
>
> Yup- that's pretty much it.
>
> There were people who had very elaborate clothes, but they were the
> exception rather than the rule.
I've got a sort of interview on vidoe tape recorded in gossips around
1983/84
lasting just under 4 minutes, I copied it to disc 1.6Gb then run a thingy
program,
so no it's only a 65Mb file. (QT3, I think)
>
> > I had a cousin who was into
> >goth (at the time the term was 'dark' in Greece) and I remember it was
> >taking her ages to backcomb her hair! And we talk about BIG hair :)
I've seen a few picies of greek goths they like thier black hair and
souxsie make-up.
> >Today most people can get away with extensions or any kind of coloured
> >hair.
>
> I'm still not sure when the MLP/extensions thing came in.
I remember them about 1985/6, DOA SSS.
>
> But I still can't figure out when it became Standard Slime Gothkit,
Slime didn't realltystart until the lateish 80s
T'was Kit-Cat and another XS....
> >> a glance at photos of early punk gigs will typically show hordes of
> >> long-hair-and-flares types in the crowd.
To me it alsways seemed a mix of JD & punks that mixed
and formed the early goths, then further mixed with new romantics.
Brain strain proves Monday isn't over yet. :-{}
Michael Johnson
>Actually something that I don't think anybody has mentioned yet and that is
>there was (is) a group who *always* wore black clothes from the mid-late 70's
>onwards - Stranglers fans. The greneral trend towards black was commented upon a
>number of times in the band mag 'Strangled'. Talk about Siouxsie being miffed !
On the strength of this very idea, Iactually turned up to the
Stranglers' last London gig with some flyers, thinking that I might
catch a few near-goths, or quasi-goths, or some sort of vaguely
goth-related crowd.
Oh dear. More like a convention of double-glazing salesmen!
Dunno what's happened to the Stranglers' audience, but it has *not*
aged well!
Tetsab
> 80's street fashion books also show 1980's Goth to have a lot more color,
> especially featured colour.
Well I'm too young to remember the 'olden days' too. But I do submit as
evidence stuff nicked off DNA Dvorkin's page (some of you may remember
him):
Nicked from here specifically:
http://www.sff.net/people/Daniel.Dvorkin/makegoth.htm
***
A memory, probably from November 1990: sitting on the steps of a
fountain not too far from King's Cross, a good-sized mixed crowd of
punks, Goths, and ravers, passing around bottles of wine. I was
(drunkenly) expounding on the differences between being a punk in
America and a punk in England. I gestured to the guy next to me, with
his two foot-high fire-engine-red Mohawk, his ripped yellow denim
jacket, his scuffed Docs and tattered Royal Army camouflage pants
showing fishnets underneath. "Like you, f'rinstance --"
He cut me off. "I'm not a bleedin' punk, mate, I'm a bleedin' Gothic.
Can't you see the bleedin' t-shirt?"
(I swear he did.)
Yeah, okay, so he had a Siouxsie and the Banshees t-shirt on underneath.
Um ... okay, excuse me. Sorry. Is it really all that important?
***
And there you have it. At least 1 colourful goth. Siouxsie was also very
colourful. And goth was also at one time called 'postive punk'.
So take that you damn Victorian dress'n mopes!
Tetsab.
>^..^< (who ironically enough is a Victorian dressing mope. Hyuk! ;)
--
Sig-na-a-ture is dead. http://members.home.net/tetsab/
The bytes have left the bell-tower.
Jodi
>Although Joy Division had a tendency to wear black, and long coats, they
>didn't look especially goth- but neither did several other early goth
>bands, like Play Dead.
I've always considered Jarvis Cocker the heir to Ian Curtis' dress
sense.
>It should be remembered that Joy Division were not about image (in the
>sense of what they looked like themselves), they were about music.
I suspect that Bauhaus are the only early goth band with what would now
be considered the "look".[1]
Anybody know what the Chameleons dressed like? When I saw Mark Burgess
a few years back he was wearing blue jeans/t-shirt. It was still a
bloody good show though.
Jodi
[1] Cue Pete and Nem to prove me wrong on this...
--
as a matter of fact, I do own the dance floor
Jodi
>So take that you damn Victorian dress'n mopes!
Funny you should mention that. I freely admit to being one of the
people who started the Victorian fashion thing[1], but I've never been
even remotely stuck up and mopey! Personally, I don't see the
connection between liking elaborate clothes and having a gother than
thou/ head up your arse attitude.
Jodi
[1] My friend and I used to argue over which of us was the first to wear
white frilly shirts in Leeds.
John Gothwin
Pete Scathe wrote in message ...
>>Today most people can get away with extensions or any kind of coloured
>>hair.
>
>I'm still not sure when the MLP/extensions thing came in.
>
>extensions back in about 1983.
>
>But I still can't figure out when it became Standard Slime Gothkit, and
>later on part of the uniform of the Identikit Techno-Goth Hordes, along
>with PVC & Smegg Boots...
>
John
John Gothwin
Jodi wrote in message <37371ca0...@news.demon.co.uk>...
>Anybody know what the Chameleons dressed like? When I saw Mark Burgess
>a few years back he was wearing blue jeans/t-shirt. It was still a
>bloody good show though.
>
jumpers. But then even FotN used to wear blue jeans...
John
Bob
>Pete Scathe wrote in message ...
>>later on part of the uniform of the Identikit Techno-Goth Hordes, along
>>with PVC & Smegg Boots...
>...and what about goggles!? Can anyone explain that to me, please :)
That was obviously a post-Tank Girl thing.
Bob
Lee Irvine
> Don't believe the
> hype about Aquanet and all that - Boots own-brand was the early-goff's
> hairspray of choice!
What about Insette? When I smell it even now it takes me back to The
Backroom/Immigrants, Edinburgh cica '89/'90
> (Except, being poor, I used, er, soap....)
Nothing wrong with a bit soap. Works a treat and you saved money on
shampoo too!
(It was a bugger when it rained though)
Lee
Saiira
> But I still can't figure out when it became Standard Slime Gothkit, and
> later on part of the uniform of the Identikit Techno-Goth Hordes, along
> with PVC & Smegg Boots...
You've missed out the New Rocks and glittery corsets!
Saiira
Tetsab
> Personally, I don't see the connection between liking elaborate
> clothes and having a gother than thou/ head up your arse attitude.
Agreed. You can't judge a goth by its plumage. And just to confirm, the
original comment was a joke - as illustrated by my admission at the end.
But I do see the connection on a couple of levels AKA I've got better
clothes and therefore I'm better than you (this extends to clothing of
*any* fashion vein) and I'm dressed like a stuffy git with my high lace
collar so I'm going to be a stuffy git.
To follow the tangent I'm running with, clothing will very often effect
the personality and/or mood of a person dependant on how easily they are
influenced by such things. Your mileage may vary, but there are folks
that experience such things.
And there is my half-baked connection that still won't relate to you
personally. :)
Tetsab.
>^..^<
hatty
Jodi wrote in message <37381e6a...@news.demon.co.uk>...
>On Mon, 10 May 1999 16:32:52 GMT, Tetsab wrote:
>
>
>>So take that you damn Victorian dress'n mopes!
>
>Funny you should mention that. I freely admit to being one of the
>people who started the Victorian fashion thing[1],
I admit it now - but went for many years burning photo`s and destroying
the evidence. I used to buy frocks from antique shops, always long and
black, very lacey and spend hours doing them up.
but I've never been
>even remotely stuck up and mopey!
In my late teens/early twenties - I admit (now) I was designer mopey.
Spent hours putting on my make-up, preparing clothes, crimping without
crimpers (going to bed with hundreds of tiny plaits in) and then looking
like a sourpuss all night. <snigger>
hatty
hatty
Jodi wrote in message <37371ca0...@news.demon.co.uk>...
>On Mon, 10 May 1999 05:42:12 +0100, Pete Scathe wrote:
>
>
>>Although Joy Division had a tendency to wear black, and long coats,
they
>>didn't look especially goth- but neither did several other early goth
>>bands, like Play Dead.
>
>I've always considered Jarvis Cocker the heir to Ian Curtis' dress
>sense.
Hmmm - wear your top half clothes a couple of sizes smaller than is
comfortable, badly fitting baggy trousers and look like you slept in
them. I saw Joy Division twice and thought they were crap - but I was
very young at the time.
>>It should be remembered that Joy Division were not about image (in the
>>sense of what they looked like themselves), they were about music.
And I seem to recall they made a lot of mistakes live. Boyfriend of the
time who liked them even commented that they were very bad live.
>I suspect that Bauhaus are the only early goth band with what would now
>be considered the "look".[1]
>
>Anybody know what the Chameleons dressed like? When I saw Mark Burgess
>a few years back he was wearing blue jeans/t-shirt. It was still a
>bloody good show though.
Blue jeans and shirt (pale blue with white buttons) if memory serves me
well
hatty
Pete Scathe
>David Gerard wrote:
>
>> There's a deep dark secret of goth that no-one ever mentions but that
>> you should know, kids: your subcultural ancestors dressed *utterly
>> crap*.
>>
>> Ever seen pics of Joy Division? Dull-looking lot, weren't they? Their
>> fans dressed like this too.
>
>Hey, speak for yourself. I've always looked good.
That's what I always thought.
In hindsight, of course, I may have been wrong... ;)
> There's never been a
>generic goth look, you know. Isn't that the point?
>
I'd say it's more that there have been a number of generic goth looks
over the years...
--
Pete Scathe (NP: These Crimson Dreams: Transitory Surfaces)
early history of goth: www.scathe.demon.co.uk/histgoth.htm
zog...@home.com
> > Nah, we used toothpaste. Minty fresh.
>
> mohawk up (and soap sometimes). Every so often he was too wasted so I
> had to do it. Yuk, that icky toothpaste :)
>
Rubber cement for the really big hawks.
Angel.
HiRez
John Gothwin <jo...@gothwin.telinco.co.uk.no.spam> wrote:
>...and what about goggles!? Can anyone explain that to me, please :)
Bizarre Dumpy's Rusty Nuts fixation?
(Ha! Gigs down The Greyhound are the New Goth. Or not.)
--
J "Flying helmets == Hawkwind" H-R
Phildo
HiRez <hi...@dougal.orchestream.com> wrote in message
news:slrn7jg0g...@dougal.orchestream.com...
> On Mon, 10 May 1999 19:53:02 +0100,
> John Gothwin <jo...@gothwin.telinco.co.uk.no.spam> wrote:
>
> >...and what about goggles!? Can anyone explain that to me, please :)
>
> Bizarre Dumpy's Rusty Nuts fixation?
>
Dumpy is god
--
Phildo
ICQ 15290022
Shaun Denney
<Mi...@deletethis.pacbell.net> wrote:
>HiRez <hi...@dougal.orchestream.com> wrote in message
>news:slrn7jg0g...@dougal.orchestream.com...
>> On Mon, 10 May 1999 19:53:02 +0100,
>> John Gothwin <jo...@gothwin.telinco.co.uk.no.spam> wrote:
>> >...and what about goggles!? Can anyone explain that to me, please :)
>> Bizarre Dumpy's Rusty Nuts fixation?
What's bizarre about a a fat, bearded dwarf in a tutu and flying
goggles?
>Wow, someone else who likes DNR !!! :>)
>Dumpy is god
Really? I expected God to be taller. I 'spose he's got the beard for
it though...
Did anyone else see "Dumpy's BlueZZ IntoZZicated" recently? Dumpy
decided to see what it's like to do a tour in a three-piece, whilst
sober, playing 60s/70s blues standards. He's normally a pretty good
guitarist, but when he's not pissed he's *awesome*. DRN are more fun
though.
Shaun
Greg Anderson
> On the strength of this very idea, Iactually turned up to the
> Stranglers' last London gig with some flyers, thinking that I might
> catch a few near-goths, or quasi-goths, or some sort of vaguely
> goth-related crowd.
>
> Oh dear. More like a convention of double-glazing salesmen!
> Dunno what's happened to the Stranglers' audience, but it has *not*
> aged well!
I agree, they played the Warwick Arts Centre (strange choice of venue)
last year and as it's on my doorstep I went along, clad in black and
even fought with my hair to put the mohawk up...and there I was down the
fron with a bunch of casually dressed middle aged men who did little more
than sway. Still the music was top and JJ got well into things even if
the crowd didn't.
Banshee
-----Greg Anderson-...@csv.warwick.ac.uk-----
"You still don't know what you're dealing with,
do you? A perfect organism. It's structural
perfection is matched only by it's hostility."
---------http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~lssan/----------
Greg Anderson
> Cat wrote:
>
>
> [punks]
> > What I do know is that in the early days of Punk gel hadn't been invented
> > *horror*. I'm told they used to use concocted mixtured of egg
> > white/suger/fruit juice and smelt like walking ki ora cartons....Is this
> > true or is the innocence of youth being abused??
>
> Nah, we used toothpaste. Minty fresh.
I a lot of the early punks I knew would use margarine to spike their
hair. Yeuch!
Greg Anderson
> >but I've never been
> >even remotely stuck up and mopey!
>
> In my late teens/early twenties - I admit (now) I was designer mopey.
> Spent hours putting on my make-up, preparing clothes, crimping without
> crimpers (going to bed with hundreds of tiny plaits in) and then looking
> like a sourpuss all night. <snigger>
And this from the woman who nags me for taking too long to get ready!
I think I'll bite my tongue now before I say any more and get a slap :-p
Grannyflash
>
> On Mon, 10 May 1999, Chrissy wrote:
> > Cat wrote:
[punks]
> > > What I do know is that in the early days of Punk gel hadn't been invented *horror*. I'm told they used to use concocted > > >mixtured of egg white/suger/fruit juice and smelt like walking ki ora cartons....Is this
> > > true or is the innocence of youth being abused??
I don't know about over there...but Dippity Do Gel has been around for
ages...a spackle for big bee hive 60's hair do's in two colors for the
strength of hold.We would mix Kool-aid and this gel then iron it in to
set it, or to make it dry faster, with a regular clothes iron...duh! if
you hair was long. This would cook it in the hair and it would last. It
worked pretty well maybe a little scaley, but you had to be careful with
the ears...Hee hee some of the fashion included burnt spots on ears and
neck...yup thems the good ol' days........:p
Anna
Jodi
>
>In my late teens/early twenties - I admit (now) I was designer mopey.
>Spent hours putting on my make-up, preparing clothes, crimping without
>crimpers (going to bed with hundreds of tiny plaits in) and then looking
>like a sourpuss all night. <snigger>
It's funny - although I've always been a complete clothes horse I've
never been terribly bothered about hair and makeup. I was always
disastrously bad at both but never particularly bothered. I don't think
I've ever taken more than 15 minutes to do my makeup - pretty much a
case of I don't care how bad it is, that's it, I'm finished, can we go
out now????
When I had really long hair it would take about an hour and a half to
crimp and more than once I got bored halfway through and went out with
half my hair crimped.
Jodi
David Gerard
:f...@thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) wrote:
:>What else could the early history do with a mention of ... the
:>Birthday Party. The Melbourne post-punk scene was an utterly
:>derivative thing (mostly of the UK, slightly of New York punk), but
:>one thing they did *damn* well - being from Melbourne - was to be arty
:>wankers. And the Birthday Party carried that particular superpower
:>with them on the journey to the UK. And got a lot of people dressing
:>up, IMO.
:Given half a chance (and a captive audience) I have been known to
:vehemently assert that goth, in a nutshell, evolved out of the 'arty'
:end of punk.
I think that's a given. The arty end of post-punk (when punk became an
artistic free-for-all), to be precise.
That's why I assert that Bauhaus and Sisters of Mercy actually ruined
goth music. The former for being a shallow pop band, the latter for
mediocre Joy Div ripoffs and using that g*dd*mned drum machine that
everyone else adopted.
: In the 80s, when Brit-punk basically degenerated into
:bands of well'ard skin'eads, shouting (I blame Garry Bushell...) those
:of us who were, by and large, punks but didn't like the Oi! stuff,
:kind of gravitated to the arty-farties and the weirdos such as Bauhaus
:and Alien Sex Fiend......and, although it might seem like there's an
:element of 'strange bedfellows' here, the Birthday Party were
:definitely seen as being in with this crowd. I had a blond Nick Cave
:hairstyle once. Evidence is (hidden) on http://www.nemesis.to .....
I also hereby assert that goth as we know it came from an influence
crossbreeding of the raincoat stuff (the Factory bands and their
copyists) and the Birthday Party (a rock'n'roll band who were *well
dressed*).
The B.Party are certainly the prime influence on such early examples
as the Sex Gang Children and the Inca Babies. Listen to 'Junkyard'
then listen to anything by the Inca Babies ... jeezus.
Nick Cave caught onto this crap early - see his piece "A bit more
violence and so on" from the Christmas 1982 NME, reprinted in 'King
Ink'.
:I'm 35. <sigh> And it shows.....
You need more wirgin blut, matey. Then you can be nineteen like the
rest of us.
--
http://thingy.apana.org.au/~fun/ http://xenu.netizen.com.au/
ALERT! Australian government attempts to censor Australian internet out of
existence! - See http://www.efa.org.au/ for the gory details ...
Chrissy
> Even the Cure were influenced by Siouxsie...
Even? Robert Smith was a 'Banshee', after all. And so goddamned cute
then, too.
Nostalgically sighing,
--Chrissy
URL: http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/4010
Mail to: zana...@innocent.com
""It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either
charming or tedious."
Chrissy
> >Hey, speak for yourself. I've always looked good.
> That's what I always thought.
> In hindsight, of course, I may have been wrong... ;)
[makes mental note to dig out photgraphic evidence]
> > There's never been a
> >generic goth look, you know. Isn't that the point?
> >
> I'd say it's more that there have been a number of generic goth looks
> over the years...
The moral dilemma of a sub-culture - how to be differently different?
Possibly number of generic goth cultures at any one time?
And finally, in questioning mood, how would you identify a fellow goth
in a neutral environment? On the Tube, for example.
Poking maliciously and pondering a different hairstyle.
--Chrissy
"No bird soars too high,
if he soars with his own wings." - William Blake.
hatty
David Gerard wrote in message <7hbefn$erl$4...@youknow.apana.org.au>...
>On Sun, 09 May 1999 11:56:13 GMT, Michael Johnson
<un...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>:f...@thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) wrote:
>
>:>What else could the early history do with a mention of ... the
>:>Birthday Party. The Melbourne post-punk scene was an utterly
>:>derivative thing (mostly of the UK, slightly of New York punk), but
>:>one thing they did *damn* well - being from Melbourne - was to be
arty
>:>wankers. And the Birthday Party carried that particular superpower
>:>with them on the journey to the UK. And got a lot of people dressing
>:>up, IMO.
I saw the Birthday Party at the Warehouse in Liverpool 1982 - and apart
from the bar staff I was the only female in the place. I don`t recall
ever hearing the Birthday Party in the clubs that I went to - except
maybe Nick the Stripper.
>That's why I assert that Bauhaus and Sisters of Mercy actually ruined
>goth music.
No that was the fields of the nephilim who just took that cliche one
step too far. (And killed goth IMO) I think what Bauhaus and Sisters of
Mercy did was clarify what was goth and what was not. I think the scene
was very fragmented for a couple of years, I think New Romantic was a
strange interuption (though fun) between Bauhaus and Sisters time like
we were waiting for something.
The former for being a shallow pop band, the latter for
>mediocre Joy Div ripoffs and using that g*dd*mned drum machine that
>everyone else adopted.
There was not a great choice of drum machines around at that time
though.
>I also hereby assert that goth as we know it came from an influence
>crossbreeding of the raincoat stuff (the Factory bands and their
>copyists) and the Birthday Party (a rock'n'roll band who were *well
>dressed*).
I have to disagree - unless what you mean by raincoat stuff is different
to my interpretation. The Factory bands were dull and grey. I agree with
someone on this thread that goth came from punk - and those who did not
like the OI sort of direction.
>The B.Party are certainly the prime influence on such early examples
>as the Sex Gang Children and the Inca Babies. Listen to 'Junkyard'
>then listen to anything by the Inca Babies ... jeezus.
I liked the Inca Babies - and I agree they were very influenced by
Birthday Party - Bone Orchard were another UK band around the same time
with a very brave female singer - and now I have to go into my big
trunk of tapes and dig out stuff.
>:I'm 35. <sigh> And it shows.....
>
>You need more wirgin blut, matey. Then you can be nineteen like the
>rest of us.
Yeah, I,m nineteen too, I,ve just done a lot of drugs ;-)
hatty
whose getting all nostalgic now and has to go seek out Bone Orchard,
Inca Babies, Drug Free America, Blood and Roses and stuff
hatty
Greg Anderson wrote in message ...
>On Tue, 11 May 1999, hatty wrote:
>
>> >but I've never been
>> >even remotely stuck up and mopey!
>>
>> Spent hours putting on my make-up, preparing clothes, crimping
without
>> crimpers (going to bed with hundreds of tiny plaits in) and then
looking
>> like a sourpuss all night. <snigger>
>
In my yoof - getting ready was a week long affair - planning and maybe
making outfit - day off to do hair and mekk-up - none of your ready made
white mekk-up in my day - we had to make our own from crushed bones and
virgins spit - even planning the route to avoid passing certain pubs and
getting our heads kicked in. I staggered up Broad Street with a sprayed
black lampshade on my head, I held my head high and did my well
practised mince in 7 inch stillettos past sniggering bus queues, I
forced myself to smoke ciggarettes that came in a black box, with my
black fag holder and were way too strong for me. I got accused of
soliciting whilst waiting for a bus. I was there fighting the goth wars
and NOW everyone loves Duran Duran and Flock of Seagulls - ick
OK rant over
>I think I'll bite my tongue now before I say any more and get a slap
:-p
One slap incoming.
hatty ;-)
Johnny Moda
>
Last time I saw him (about '93, in Leeds) he was wearing a floor length
night-shirt, Scrooge-style.
Johnny Moda
hatty wrote in message <7hcu0p$2em$2...@gxsn.com>...
>
>
>hatty
>whose getting all nostalgic now and has to go seek out Bone Orchard,
>Inca Babies, Drug Free America, Blood and Roses and stuff
>
>
>
>
Blood and Roses...Now there was a band that should have been huge, if a Goth
band could ever be huge. I haven't listened to my album since 1987, when
after a drunken escapade at a party it got split into two perfect halves.
hatty
Johnny Moda wrote in message <7hcvuk$1jd$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Album? I only ever had a 12 inch single and some taped stuff. I would be
interested to hear the album. I did see them live a couple fo times but
they seemed to have far too many people in the band. Wonder what became
of them - wheres that Oracle Scathe when you need him :-)
hatty
who ought to get a sig file
hatty
The Girl who wanted to be God wrote in message
<37710f71...@news.demon.co.uk>...
>hatty wrote:
>
>>
>>whose getting all nostalgic now and has to go seek out Bone Orchard,
>>Inca Babies, Drug Free America, Blood and Roses and stuff
>
>
>:P
Margelette?! I,m gonna kick your ass!!
And talking of goth points, I bet the entire population of upg are going
to wait with baited breath for our Ibiza review. Marge and hatty on the
Med.
hatty
who really should stop posting now
hatty
The Girl who wanted to be God wrote in message
>hatty wrote:
>
>>In my yoof - getting ready was a week long affair - planning and maybe
>>making outfit - day off to do hair and mekk-up - none of your ready
made
>>white mekk-up in my day - we had to make our own from crushed bones
and
>>virgins spit - even planning the route to avoid passing certain pubs
and
>
>does this mean in a few years time i have to cut all my hair off and
>wear t-shirts advertising french lager?
>
>*wibble*
>
You have to get married before you can cut all your hair off young
Margelette. <She said being cryptic> I didn`t know Kronenberg was
french, and the most recent wearer of said t-shirt was you - oblivious
to the hair dye stains on the neck <snigger>
Anyway, my latest T-shirt purchase got me sent to the naughty corner in
hattys hostel. Some people wear shirts and ties to work - I wear
t-shirts that say R*eb*K.
hatty
whose posting way beyond her one a quarter quota
Pete Scathe
>On Sun, 09 May 1999 11:56:13 GMT, Michael Johnson <un...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>:f...@thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) wrote:
>:Given half a chance (and a captive audience) I have been known to
>:vehemently assert that goth, in a nutshell, evolved out of the 'arty'
>:end of punk.
>
>I think that's a given. The arty end of post-punk (when punk became an
>artistic free-for-all), to be precise.
>
>That's why I assert that Bauhaus and Sisters of Mercy actually ruined
>goth music. The former for being a shallow pop band, the latter for
>mediocre Joy Div ripoffs and using that g*dd*mned drum machine that
>everyone else adopted.
>
I agree with you about the Sisters (sort of), but Bauhaus?!
They were amongst the main innovators of the original goth movement!
They could be too arty, pretentious and dramatic for their own good at
times, but.. pop?
Granted, they appeared on TOTP, but I don't think that automatically
makes them a pop band and the Bane Of Goth.
>
>I also hereby assert that goth as we know it came from an influence
>crossbreeding of the raincoat stuff (the Factory bands and their
>copyists) and the Birthday Party (a rock'n'roll band who were *well
>dressed*).
>
Interesting hypothesis, but I don't agree with it.
The Birthday Party were influential, but not *that* influential!
Bauhaus and Siouxsie were far, far more important as regards effect on
the goth scene.
And they were running at the same time as Joy Division...
(and the rest of the Factory bands weren't really involved in it- I
can't think of another Factory band who were particularly goth-
inclined...)
>The B.Party are certainly the prime influence on such early examples
>as the Sex Gang Children
<raises eyebrow>
I thought that was more Adam & the Ants than Birthday Party!
> and the Inca Babies. Listen to 'Junkyard'
>then listen to anything by the Inca Babies ... jeezus.
>
Oh yeah, the Inca Babies were definite BP rip-offs, but I don't remember
them as being particularly early in the scheme of things, nor were they
of any importance to the goth movement... I'd throw in Ausgang as BP-
influenced, too, but the same applies to them..
--
Pete Scathe (Next Resurgence: 6th June)
club info & daft haircuts: www.scathe.demon.co.uk/
Pete Scathe
><un...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>:f...@thingy.apana.org.au (David Gerard) wrote:
>>
>>:>Birthday Party. The Melbourne post-punk scene was an utterly
>>:>derivative thing (mostly of the UK, slightly of New York punk), but
>>:>one thing they did *damn* well - being from Melbourne - was to be
>arty
>>:>wankers. And the Birthday Party carried that particular superpower
>>:>with them on the journey to the UK. And got a lot of people dressing
>>:>up, IMO.
>
>
>I saw the Birthday Party at the Warehouse in Liverpool 1982 - and apart
>from the bar staff I was the only female in the place.
Sounds about right.
Was it, perchance, a rather violent affair? :)
> I don`t recall
>ever hearing the Birthday Party in the clubs that I went to - except
>maybe Nick the Stripper.
>
Release The Bats got played down here, but not much else...
>>That's why I assert that Bauhaus and Sisters of Mercy actually ruined
>>goth music.
>
>No that was the fields of the nephilim who just took that cliche one
>step too far. (And killed goth IMO)
I tend to refer to "the Sisters/Mish/Neff" axis in that respect.
There was nothing inherently wrong in the Sisters as part of the goth
scene, it was just unfortunate when they became *the* goth band after
Bauhaus died.
> I think what Bauhaus and Sisters of
>Mercy did was clarify what was goth and what was not.
They certainly supplied templates.
> I think the scene
>was very fragmented for a couple of years, I think New Romantic was a
>strange interuption (though fun) between Bauhaus and Sisters time like
>we were waiting for something.
>
Eh? Bauhaus split in 83, the New Romantic thing had pretty much come &
gone by then...
> The former for being a shallow pop band, the latter for
>>mediocre Joy Div ripoffs and using that g*dd*mned drum machine that
>>everyone else adopted.
>
>There was not a great choice of drum machines around at that time
>though.
>
Which is a shame, as some of the early Sisters and Violets songs could
have sounded a lot better...
>>I also hereby assert that goth as we know it came from an influence
>>crossbreeding of the raincoat stuff (the Factory bands and their
>>copyists) and the Birthday Party (a rock'n'roll band who were *well
>>dressed*).
>
>I have to disagree - unless what you mean by raincoat stuff is different
>to my interpretation. The Factory bands were dull and grey. I agree with
>someone on this thread that goth came from punk - and those who did not
>like the OI sort of direction.
>
The Factory bands were part of the same post-punk drift... but it was
only really Joy Division who had any influence on goth.
Pete Scathe
>>
>Blood and Roses...Now there was a band that should have been huge, if a Goth
>band could ever be huge.
They were pretty good, but they were a bit too "We're so occult it
hurts" for my liking at first... I think they grew out of that though...
> I haven't listened to my album since 1987, when
>after a drunken escapade at a party it got split into two perfect halves.
>
Bummer :(
Pete Scathe
>Goth
>when
>>after a drunken escapade at a party it got split into two perfect
>halves.
>
"Enough Is Never Enough"...
I remember there being quite a long time between the first material and
the album, but my perception of time back then was different...
> I only ever had a 12 inch single and some taped stuff. I would be
>interested to hear the album.
I remember it as being quite good, but not consistent.
God knows what I'd think of it now...
<digs it out>
Well, the title track is still as ace as I remember it - they don't
write em like that any more!
(and it even got good reviews from the music press at the time IIRC!)
"Some like it hot", however, bears a perilous resemblance to Ghost
Dance... "Your Sin" is also a bit iffy... "Roles" is good though...
and... <skips through rest of album>
Hmm.
You know, the odd thing about that album is that they were poppy (too
poppy at times...) *and* avant-garde at the same time. Odd mixture.
I'm not too sure if they thought "We're getting too poppy, let's throw
in some odd noises" or if it was the other way round...
In a way, it's typical "early 2nd division goth"- some very good stuff
and some very iffy stuff.
> I did see them live a couple fo times but
>they seemed to have far too many people in the band. Wonder what became
>of them - wheres that Oracle Scathe when you need him :-)
>
You called? :)
They split up ages ago... and apparently their singer wound up in an
alt/indie band...
Rev. Carroll D. Kraston
<pe...@scathe.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> I think the scene
>>was very fragmented for a couple of years, I think New Romantic was a
>>strange interuption (though fun) between Bauhaus and Sisters time like
>>we were waiting for something.
>>
>Eh? Bauhaus split in 83, the New Romantic thing had pretty much come &
>gone by then...
And really, other than having similar influences (punk, glam, disco),
the New Romantic thing wasn't much to do with Goth. the New Romantics
tended more towards the disco and fairly happy songs, while Goth was
more oriented to punk and glam and dark stuff....though there's
exceptions on both sides..
>>
>>There was not a great choice of drum machines around at that time
>>though.
I still wonder sometimes what ever became of Echo, did the Bunnymen
just sell him off when they got a live drummer? Or is he sitting in
someone's garage collecting dust?
Rev. Carroll D. Kraston
<pe...@scathe.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>That's why I assert that Bauhaus and Sisters of Mercy actually ruined
>>goth music. The former for being a shallow pop band, the latter for
>>mediocre Joy Div ripoffs and using that g*dd*mned drum machine that
>>everyone else adopted.
>>
>I agree with you about the Sisters (sort of), but Bauhaus?!
>
>They were amongst the main innovators of the original goth movement!
>
>They could be too arty, pretentious and dramatic for their own good at
>times, but.. pop?
>
Actually, most of these bands use pop song structure, even if they're
not particularly "poppy" sounding...
And I agree with the assertion towards Sisters, personally, I've
always found Eldritch's vocals to be rather forced, sort of a
Murphy/Curtis caricature, and the music tends to be overdone as well,
which caused alot of todays goth bands who have SOM as an influence to
sound quite cheesy, even by SOM standards..
David Gerard
:David Gerard <f...@thingy.apana.org.au> wrote
:>Go back that far and what became goth did *not* look good. At all.
:Well... back in Those Days it's debatable whether there was a goth
:movement at all. The bands were there, but the subculture had yet to de
:defined.
I think it was a discernible thread. ur-goth.
:>What else could the early history do with a mention of ... the
:>Birthday Party.
:I do mention them! Lots! Because they were great!
I mention them here because I recently checked out histgoth.htm and
noticed the absence of the B. Party from the bands list.
So, tell me: how large did they really loom in early UK goth? Here
they loomed huge, and *not* for being Australian - more for lotsa
features in NME.
:> The Melbourne post-punk scene was an utterly
:>derivative thing (mostly of the UK, slightly of New York punk), but
:>one thing they did *damn* well - being from Melbourne - was to be arty
:>wankers. And the Birthday Party carried that particular superpower
:>with them on the journey to the UK. And got a lot of people dressing
:>up, IMO.
:Hmmm... I'm not sure about that at all. OK, so I can be seen on my
:Haircuts Page sporting a very bad Nick Cave hairstyle, but if I had to
:point out major influences on early goth fashion, Siouxsie, Bauhaus and
:the Batcave would rank far higher than the Birthday Party...
Hrm, I guess so.
:>[1] I realise that the correct answer to 'you should put this on your
:>page' is 'write a page on it yourself'. I'm slightly tempted ...
:Go on! Then I can nick it! :)
Feel free to cut'n'paste from this thread then! We're doing your work
for you!
David Gerard
:David Gerard wrote:
:> There's a deep dark secret of goth that no-one ever mentions but that
:> you should know, kids: your subcultural ancestors dressed *utterly
:> crap*.
:> Ever seen pics of Joy Division? Dull-looking lot, weren't they? Their
:> fans dressed like this too.
:Hey, speak for yourself. I've always looked good.
I'm speaking generally, you're replying with an exception; the two
aren't incompatible at all.
: There's never been a
:generic goth look, you know.
I would disagree completely. There have been several.
: Isn't that the point?
Yes, but you try telling the young folk today that ...
David Gerard
:more importantly, whos the eeeeedjit who thought wearing wedding
:dresses/veils looked hip and happening?! ive always thought it was a
:reserve of the terminally sad ;) [1]
I think it can actually work okay. Needs a bit of work to pull off
though.
But imagine wearing all white to a goth club non-ironically.
:[5] esp if said veil is actually a kitchen curtain contraption thingy
:ala that chick in sheff i saw who apparently wrote for blurred
:victorian child [6]
Yes, well.
:[6] nuff said. :)
Please, do tell.
David Gerard
:Hmmm - wear your top half clothes a couple of sizes smaller than is
:comfortable, badly fitting baggy trousers and look like you slept in
:them. I saw Joy Division twice and thought they were crap - but I was
:very young at the time.
:And I seem to recall they made a lot of mistakes live. Boyfriend of the
:time who liked them even commented that they were very bad live.
Keep in mind that Joy Division basically couldn't play. There's a very
good reason New Order use so many machines.
Chrissy
> :> Ever seen pics of Joy Division? Dull-looking lot, weren't they? Their
> :> fans dressed like this too.
>
> :Hey, speak for yourself. I've always looked good.
>
> I'm speaking generally, you're replying with an exception; the two
> aren't incompatible at all.
No, you weren't being general, you made a statement. However, I forgive
you if what you said was not what you meant. [grin]
> : There's never been a
> :generic goth look, you know.
>
> I would disagree completely. There have been several.
generic: [def] adj : "relating to or characteristic of a whole group or
class"
I stand my ground. We are saying the same, methinks.
> : Isn't that the point?
>
> Yes, but you try telling the young folk today that ...
Oh, indeed. I put a great distance between myself and the purely visual
and conformist 'goth' 'culture' [sic].
--Chrissy
"The first rule is - there are no rules"
Whisky Dave
Jodi <jo...@gene13.demonspam.co.uk> wrote in message
news:37399686...@news.demon.co.uk...
> On Tue, 11 May 1999 01:13:28 +0100, hatty wrote:
> >
> It's funny - although I've always been a complete clothes horse I've
> never been terribly bothered about hair and makeup
> I've ever taken more than 15 minutes to do my makeup - pretty much a
> case of I don't care how bad it is, that's it, I'm finished, can we go
> out now????
>
> When I had really long hair it would take about an hour and a half to
> crimp and more than once I got bored halfway through and went out with
> half my hair crimped.
>
> Jodi
> --
Your obviously not a *rael* Goth then ;-)
Whisky Dave
David Gerard <f...@thingy.apana.org.au> wrote in message
news:7he6d0$kj2$8...@thingy.apana.org.au...
> On Mon, 10 May 1999 22:55:10 GMT, The Girl who wanted to be God
<god...@twisted.org.uk> wrote:
>
> :more importantly, whos the eeeeedjit who thought wearing wedding
> :dresses/veils looked hip and happening?! ive always thought it was a
> :reserve of the terminally sad ;) [1]
>
>
> I think it can actually work okay. Needs a bit of work to pull off
> though.
>
> But imagine wearing all white to a goth club non-ironically.
>
You should seem them down the slime.....
Theier dresses pick up more gunge and slime from the floor than a
utensil specifically made for picking up gunge and slime form floors.
April
"Whisky Dave" <d.wil...@elec.qmw.ac.uk> wrote:
<snip>
> You should seem them down the slime.....
> Theier dresses pick up more gunge and slime from the floor than a
> utensil specifically made for picking up gunge and slime form floors.
I see an employment opportunity arising...
April
next time i notice the floor needs cleaning i shall simply wear longer
dresses for a week
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
Alex Page
>Dr. Gothwin wrote:
>>...and what about goggles!? Can anyone explain that to me, please :)
>That was obviously a post-Tank Girl thing.
Nah, most goths are too crap to read Tank Girl... except you of
course, Bob (groovy and fab site BTW)
Alex (annoyed because he discovered TG after the Demise of Deadline)
NP: Radiohead - "Anyone Can Play Guitar"
--
"My place is here, corrupting the young" - Lord Rochester, "Plunkett & Macleane"
Bah. It is Techno. It goes Beep.
MancGoff: http://www.gothicdreams.net/grimoire
Merlina
<un...@globalnet.co.uk> writes
>I can still recall the mingled aromas of varnish and..... Boots
>own-brand hairsprayon all those 'big' hairstyles! Don't believe the
>hype about Aquanet and all that - Boots own-brand was the early-goff's
>hairspray of choice!
Not among those with black hair - unless they felt that the appearance
of rampant dandruff added to the overall look. (it left a *substantial*
white residue) IIRC Silvikrin (in the blue can) was ubiquitous in the
Batcave loos
--
Merlina
I have a firm grip of reality - now I can strangle it....
Merlina
<C.Whit...@rhbnc.ac.uk> writes
>80's street fashion books also show 1980's Goth to have a lot more color,
>especially featured colour. This is, of course somewhat subjective. Were
>Goths photographed, or simply the media ideal of Goth? I'm too young to
>remember the olden days! *G*.
There was not the distinction between 'goth' & 'NR' that we have in
hindsight - and there was a huge crossover anyway of 'miscellaneous
weirdos'. The NR influence meant that colour was certainly more
prevailant that later on.
One long-established goth tradition could be seen very early on though -
everyone denied they were goth!
>What I do know is that in the early days of Punk gel hadn't been invented
>*horror*. I'm told they used to use concocted mixtured of egg
>white/suger/fruit juice and smelt like walking ki ora cartons....Is this
>true or is the innocence of youth being abused??
These substances were indeed used. My spikes were kept in place by 2
bottles of that gooey paper gum - Gloy IIRC
Tetsab
> I can't crosspost this to ukpg as I'm on AOL, so I suppose I'm more or less
> talking to myself here, but I tried...
I'm probably breaking some nasty little rule but I've quoted the whole
post below just to get it to ukpg basically due to the fact that this is
my favourite thread and I'll do basically anything to keep shoving it
along. I'll shut-up and leave you with the content now.
XloreleiX wrote:
Pete Scathe wrote:
>(and the rest of the Factory bands weren't really involved in it- I
>can't think of another Factory band who were particularly goth-
>inclined...)
Well, I s'pose the Durutti Column didn't have a bloody thing to do with
goth, but Vini Reilly can certainly write tunes that will make you reach
for the razor blades...he did pen a song called "Noose Around My Neck,"
and some of his other stuff written for/about Ian Curtis ("Sleep Will
Come," "The Missing Boy" etc) would make a stoic (or the baby Jesus ;) )
cry.
~Lorelei~
* * * * * * *
"Wow! They have Nick Cave dolls now? I want one!"~Bongwater
"The Betty Ford Clinic--why, it must be the most glamourous
place on earth!"~John Waters~http://members.aol.com/XloreleiX
Pete Scathe
>In article <373704ca...@alpha.news.global.net.uk>, Michael Johnson
><un...@globalnet.co.uk> writes
>
>>I can still recall the mingled aromas of varnish and..... Boots
>>own-brand hairsprayon all those 'big' hairstyles! Don't believe the
>>hype about Aquanet and all that - Boots own-brand was the early-goff's
>>hairspray of choice!
>
>Not among those with black hair - unless they felt that the appearance
>of rampant dandruff added to the overall look.
Ah yes, the perils of Boots hairspray... it's all coming back to me
now...
> (it left a *substantial*
>white residue)
Not only on your hair, but on your clothes, on your crimpers, on your
records...
Trouble was with the Boots hairspray, it was cheap but it wasn't
particularly strong, so you had to use loads of it.
I very quickly switched to something more expensive but stronger...
> IIRC Silvikrin (in the blue can) was ubiquitous in the
>Batcave loos
>
I was using Silvikrin at one stage, they did a little bottle I could
fit in my jacket...
Pete Scathe
>
>But imagine wearing all white to a goth club non-ironically.
>
was in about 1985/6...
Pete Scathe
>Pete Scathe wrote:
>
>> But I still can't figure out when it became Standard Slime Gothkit, and
>> later on part of the uniform of the Identikit Techno-Goth Hordes, along
>> with PVC & Smegg Boots...
>
>You've missed out the New Rocks and glittery corsets!
>
And the rest...
But I think we've had the "conformity within subcultures" debate
already... ("need to belong to the tribe... fit in with the rest...
individuality?... blah... blah... etc")
Pete Scathe
>On Mon, 10 May 1999 01:25:53 +0100, Pete Scathe <pe...@scathe.demon.co.uk>
>wrote:
>:David Gerard <f...@thingy.apana.org.au> wrote
>
>:>Go back that far and what became goth did *not* look good. At all.
>
>:Well... back in Those Days it's debatable whether there was a goth
>:movement at all. The bands were there, but the subculture had yet to de
>:defined.
>
>I think it was a discernible thread. ur-goth.
>
But as a definable subculture it was still coming together.
>
>:>What else could the early history do with a mention of ... the
>:>Birthday Party.
>
>:I do mention them! Lots! Because they were great!
>
>I mention them here because I recently checked out histgoth.htm and
>noticed the absence of the B. Party from the bands list.
>
I'll remedy that... eventually!
The reason they don't get a separate mention ATM is that they weren't
really major players in the early scene...
>So, tell me: how large did they really loom in early UK goth?
Not that much, TBH. They were there, but they weren't prime movers. They
were always a bit out on a limb really- their situation was probably
analagous to that of Killing Joke, ie not part of the movement as such
but still related and an influence.
> Here
>they loomed huge, and *not* for being Australian - more for lotsa
>features in NME.
>
I think they were very much a "journalist" band in that sense- they
loomed large in the NME, but didn't have so much impact on the kids.
Except me, of course :)
>
>:>[1] I realise that the correct answer to 'you should put this on your
>:>page' is 'write a page on it yourself'. I'm slightly tempted ...
>
>:Go on! Then I can nick it! :)
>
>Feel free to cut'n'paste from this thread then! We're doing your work
>for you!
>
Of course! Why do you think I like these threads so much? :)
Pete Scathe
>On Mon, 10 May 1999 05:42:12 +0100, Pete Scathe wrote:
>
>I suspect that Bauhaus are the only early goth band with what would now
>be considered the "look".[1]
>
Them and Siouxsie, who pretty much invented the early female goth look.
The Cure later looked goth, but they started out pretty ordinary-
looking...
>Anybody know what the Chameleons dressed like?
Very ordinary... "bloke on the street", essentially...
> When I saw Mark Burgess
>a few years back he was wearing blue jeans/t-shirt.
No change there then!
> It was still a
>bloody good show though.
>
I'd liked to have seen that...
Johnny Moda
David Gerard wrote in message <7he6ck$kj2$4...@thingy.apana.org.au>...
>
>
>I would disagree completely. There have been several.
>
>
>: Isn't that the point?
>
>
>Yes, but you try telling the young folk today that ...
>
>
Yes, today it's all about who has got the best Dracula outfit.
Johnny
NP John Foxx "Underpannnnnnnnnnnnnnts"
Rev. Carroll D. Kraston
wrote:
>
>But imagine wearing all white to a goth club non-ironically.
>
I've seen it...white lace wedding dresses, seen them lots, actually..
Rev. Carroll D. Kraston
wrote:
>
>Keep in mind that Joy Division basically couldn't play. There's a very
>good reason New Order use so many machines.
>
Oh right, that's why Hooky is the most influential bass player in
goth...and even out of goth..
they could play, and they still can. They just don't play like most
bands.
And as far as the sequencers and stuff, someone has to program them,
which is "playing"...
Michael Johnson
way from someone who I can't identify]:
>There was nothing inherently wrong in the Sisters as part of the goth
>scene, it was just unfortunate when they became *the* goth band after
>Bauhaus died.
I think it was Mick Mercer who postulated that the Sisters became big
*because* Bauhaus had split: the erstwhile Bauhaus audience were
looking for a 'replacement' band, the Sisters had just released 'First
& Last...' and were generally ready to step on the gas,
career-wise.... and it all fitted together rather neatly.
Don't know if that's *really* how it was, but it's certainly true that
the Sisters seemed to 'come up' immediately after Bauhaus had gone
kaput. They definitely started playing regular big gigs at this time.
I saw them at the Lyceum in '84 (I still have the ticket, which is NOT
FOR SALE, before Bruno Bossier jumps in...;-) ) and frankly it was
utterly dull compared to the Bauhaus live experience. Just a cloud of
smoke on stage through which you could occasionally glimpse a hat or
two....but the place was packed....
>> I think the scene
>>was very fragmented for a couple of years, I think New Romantic was a
>>strange interuption (though fun) between Bauhaus and Sisters time like
>>we were waiting for something.
>Eh? Bauhaus split in 83, the New Romantic thing had pretty much come &
>gone by then...
Bauhaus split '83, Sisters became big '84. Not much waiting time
there!
But now, ladies and gents, in our fragmented write-it-yourself
history, we've more or less reached the second wave of goth - the
'Gothic Rock' period, when the myriad punky-weird-whatever influences
were eclipsed by.... well, rock bands in gothic clothing, basically.
The Sisters stopped doing all those weird little singles, all staccato
drum-machine beats and clangourous guitar, and started doing Proper
Rock Songs. Hussey formed the Mish, which always was a Proper Rock
Band first and foremost. Along came the Nephelim, who were a Proper
Rock Band with distinct hippy/metal tendencies....oh, and there was
All About Eve, who *wanted* to be a Proper Rock Band, but were always
too hippyish to carry it off. And there were more....
And, probably because all this music sounded reassuringly 'normal'
compared to the stuff that had gone before, these bands picked up a
wide audience, got into the charts, videos on telly, the works. Goth,
or at least, the Gothic Rock tendency, was, for a time, almost big. It
was certainly more visible to the casual observer; and, because the
bands were all linked by their 'Proper Rock' approach, it was easy
for people to get a handle on it. None of this bewildering diversity
stuff: no art-punks, no weirdos. Just Proper Rock Bands playing Proper
Rock. In black. With hats.
And thus a generation grew up thinking that Goth *was* Gothic Rock...
OK, then: pick *that* lot apart!
--
Uncle Nemesis > Michael Johnson > un...@globalnet.co.uk
Nemesis Promotions - insert default slogan here
http://www.nemesis.to
Johnny Moda
Pete Scathe wrote in message ...
>hatty <ha...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote
>>
>
>God knows what I'd think of it now...
>
><digs it out>
>
>Well, the title track is still as ace as I remember it - they don't
>write em like that any more!
>
>(and it even got good reviews from the music press at the time IIRC!)
>
>"Some like it hot", however, bears a perilous resemblance to Ghost
>Dance... "Your Sin" is also a bit iffy... "Roles" is good though...
>and... <skips through rest of album>
>
"Roles" was the best track on the album for me, (along with "Breakdown"). I
heard it played once or twice in clubs.
>Hmm.
>
>You know, the odd thing about that album is that they were poppy (too
>poppy at times...) *and* avant-garde at the same time. Odd mixture.
I think it's more down to the production. It's got a bit of that 80's
"brassy" production quality, though thankfully not in the March Violets
"Turn to the Sky" league. The live tapes I have got have a much harder
sound.
If there is any doubt about their music's goth credentials, then there
certainly couldn't have been in other respects ! Vocalist Lisa took things
to extremes, being an enthusiastic practising black witch as I recall.
A friend of mine claimed that they once appeared on The Tube, though if they
did then I must have missed it :(
hatty
Michael Johnson wrote in message
<373b4697...@alpha.news.global.net.uk>...
>Pete Scathe <pe...@scathe.demon.co.uk> wrote [with a quote along the
>way from someone who I can't identify]:
(me - the unidentified quote)
>Don't know if that's *really* how it was, but it's certainly true that
>the Sisters seemed to 'come up' immediately after Bauhaus had gone
>kaput. They definitely started playing regular big gigs at this time.
>I saw them at the Lyceum in '84 (I still have the ticket, which is NOT
>FOR SALE, before Bruno Bossier jumps in...;-) ) and frankly it was
>utterly dull compared to the Bauhaus live experience.
I saw the Sisters firstly by accident. They were playing at the Tin Can
Club, we tended to go there every week but had actually turned up to see
Clock DVA and got our dates wrong. I really liked them though the people
I was with hated them. The last time I saw them was at the Powerhouse
(now Pulse) with a queue that stretched
round the corner. I know that when I bought First, Last, Always I was a
little sad - I thought here goes they are about to sell out.
>>> I think the scene
>>>was very fragmented for a couple of years, I think New Romantic was a
>>>strange interuption (though fun) between Bauhaus and Sisters time
like
>>>we were waiting for something.
>
>>Eh? Bauhaus split in 83, the New Romantic thing had pretty much come &
>>gone by then...
>
>Bauhaus split '83, Sisters became big '84. Not much waiting time
>there!
Your probably right and its so long ago its all a bit blurry. But I seem
to recall buying In the Flat Field LP when I was still at school and
parents having a fit at the cover. I was being a New Romantic <snigger>
when I was at sixth form college and I did not hear of the Sisters until
I moved to Bham in 82. I went off Bauhaus with Ziggy Stardust and that
appearance on TOTP. A band being "big" would instantly put me off them -
this says a lot about what an annoying pretentious brat I was in those
days - I had a total attitude about who I could allow to like *my*
music. If I met the eighteen year old me today, I would slap me ;-)
>The Sisters stopped doing all those weird little singles, all staccato
>drum-machine beats and clangourous guitar, and started doing Proper
>Rock Songs. Hussey formed the Mish, which always was a Proper Rock
>Band first and foremost. Along came the Nephelim, who were a Proper
>Rock Band
I only saw FoTN once (I think) supporting Gene Loves Jezebel. And that
for me was it, my precious little scene was being taken over by rawk
types (with hats and flour).
with distinct hippy/metal tendencies....oh, and there was
>All About Eve, who *wanted* to be a Proper Rock Band, but were always
>too hippyish to carry it off. And there were more....
I always thought All About Eve wanted to be a folk band.
Maybe we should re-name this thread - old dusty goths get nostalgic or
summat.
hatty
hatty
The Girl who wanted to be God wrote in message
<3756d864...@news.demon.co.uk>...
>hatty wrote:
>
>>
>>Margelette?! I,m gonna kick your ass!!
>
>*quivver*
>
>my booties are bigger than all of yours put together, so nyah!
precisely - your boots are soooo heavy you can not lift your feet high
enough off the floor to kick my ass without over balancing. Whereas my
boots are light.....anyway be nice or I,ll spike your drink, get you
unconcious and put you outside to TAN - popping out hourly to turn you
over and apply Factor Megga Tan Accelerator.
>>And talking of goth points, I bet the entire population of upg are
going
>>to wait with baited breath for our Ibiza review. Marge and hatty on
the
>>Med.
>
>yay!
>
>who's doing the ticket booking thing?
Colin.....<thinks>.....I will go with him to book, though I am a bit
worried that some of the clubs won`t be kicking off just yet, looking at
my Ministry of Sound Countdown to Ibiza poster.
>im workign at boots on saturday so now i can just about afford to buy
>a ticket!
Hurrah.
hatty
hatty
Rev. Carroll D. Kraston wrote in message
<373b3dd9...@news.pacifier.com>...
I saw Joy Division twice that I remember, and did know most of the songs
inside out due to the bloke of the time. They certainly made a lot of
errors - I think they just got better with time. Other people who saw
them at the time have tended to say the same thing. I am a big Joy
Division fan but there were buckets of mistakes live in those very early
days.
hatty
zog...@home.com
>
> Oh right, that's why Hooky is the most influential bass player in
> goth...and even out of goth..
The most influencial bassist in the modern music is Cliff Burton.
end of story.
Angel.
Tetsab
> And, probably because all this music sounded reassuringly 'normal'
> compared to the stuff that had gone before, these bands picked up a
> wide audience, got into the charts, videos on telly, the works.
The Bauhaus Top of the Pops bit has already been brought up.. but I'm
going to chuck this in too.
The first time I heard Bauhaus was on a compliations album released in
'83 called 'Hot Line 2'. Lagartija Nick can be found sitting happily
next to Phil Collins and Marvin Gaye.. so that was a wee bit reassuring.
> And thus a generation grew up thinking that Goth *was* Gothic Rock...
> OK, then: pick *that* lot apart!
Nah. I'll leave that to the experts.. Besides, I actually don't see too
much to pick.
Tetsab.
>^..^<
--
Sig-na-a-ture is dead. http://members.home.net/tetsab/
The bytes have left the bell-tower.
Michael Johnson
>I went off Bauhaus with Ziggy Stardust and that
>appearance on TOTP. A band being "big" would instantly put me off them -
>this says a lot about what an annoying pretentious brat I was in those
>days - I had a total attitude about who I could allow to like *my*
>music. If I met the eighteen year old me today, I would slap me ;-)
I'm ashamed to admit this, but I felt much the same. I remember at the
time all sorts of instant goths suddenly appeared who were 'really
into Bauhaus' - turned out they'd seen the band on TOTP, bought the
single, and experienced some sort of road-to-Damascus conversion.
Being a precious little brat, I took great umbrage at this. How dare
all these Johnny-come-lateleys get into 'my' band! How dare Bauhaus
have hits! My nice little alternative world was falling apart!
I was, of course, entirely wrong. And a Grade A snotty little twit to
boot. I hereby apologise to the world for the idiocy of my teenage
self! These days, I'd welcome an influx of instant goths with open
arms....especially if they came to Nemesis gigs.... ;-)
felidae
"hatty" <ha...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>Margelette?! I,m gonna kick your ass!!
Wooohoo. You're Cartman and ICM5Q. ;-)
felidae
Rev. Carroll D. Kraston
wrote:
>
>
>I saw Joy Division twice that I remember, and did know most of the songs
>inside out due to the bloke of the time. They certainly made a lot of
>errors - I think they just got better with time. Other people who saw
>them at the time have tended to say the same thing. I am a big Joy
>Division fan but there were buckets of mistakes live in those very early
>days.
>
Well, sure, they were only human....
I'm not saying they don't make mistakes, they're not perfectionist
players perhaps, but I certainly wouldn't put them on the level of an
infant banging on a piano...
Rev. Carroll D. Kraston
Cliff was GOOD, don't get me wrong, but he didn't really innovate much
aside from showing bassists in metal that they too could solo...
And I still kinda like Anasthesia/Pulling Teeth, but really, he didn't
write that, I think it was Bach or someone like that..
and I hardly see any metal bassists soloing as good as he did, most
these days just to the slap and pop thing when they do solo.
But Hooky's influenced the Cure, Jane's Addiction, Dinosaur Jr., some
Alice in Chains songs, the bassist in Modern English, Nirvana, David
J, Cocteau Twins, Siouxsie, and the Sisters to some degree, that's a
much wider range of people than just a few metal bassists...
But again, don't get me wrong, I'm not slagging Cliff.
Rev. Carroll D. Kraston
That goes double for me, I used to get annoyed at all the little girls
who were SO into the Cure after Kiss Me...
I hereby apologize to any that I insulted for only being able to name
the Kiss Me singles when I asked them to name a Cure song...
Greylock?
dance the two-step and proclaim:
>I agree with you about the Sisters (sort of), but Bauhaus?!
>They were amongst the main innovators of the original goth movement!
As we know from Colorado there is not gothic movement :)
>They could be too arty, pretentious and dramatic for their own good at
>times, but.. pop?
>Granted, they appeared on TOTP, but I don't think that automatically
>makes them a pop band and the Bane Of Goth.
There were some *very* pop moments in Bauhaus, and you only need to look at
what they turned into (and here I'm thinking of 'So Alive') to see they could
write the ideal pop song.
The single version of 'Spirits' and the Ziggy cover are two works which spring
to mind. Not hardcore pop music, but I think the Beatles would have been
proud.
We may of course be using different definitions of pop.
>>I also hereby assert that goth as we know it came from an influence
>>crossbreeding of the raincoat stuff (the Factory bands and their
>>copyists) and the Birthday Party (a rock'n'roll band who were *well
>>dressed*).
>>
>Interesting hypothesis, but I don't agree with it.
>
>The Birthday Party were influential, but not *that* influential!
That's true. They had to piss off to Europe to get big, but their influence at
the time seems to have been undeniable (witness the Inca Babies and others),
but perhaps not as obvious with regards to imagery or sound with the new
school.
There may be innovative bands working with the framework TPB left us, but they
could be submerged under countless SOM clones or playing in other circles
since they're no longer what's considered goth so the only people going out to
see them are crusties or something..
Although they still have a strong following. They were one of the first bands
I started listening too when I started this whole lark, even though I went
back to discover them via The Bad Seeds.
>
>Bauhaus and Siouxsie were far, far more important as regards effect on
>the goth scene.
>
>And they were running at the same time as Joy Division...
>
>(and the rest of the Factory bands weren't really involved in it- I
>can't think of another Factory band who were particularly goth-
>inclined...)
New Order :P
I should be able to come up with some cogent examples here of other Factory
groups that were big with my peers as we were crawling our way out of the
subcultural morass and into positive punkdom, but I can't.
I suspect the image of Factory as the Grey Raincoat Label might be based more
in myth than the dulcet tones of the Duritti Column.
>>The B.Party are certainly the prime influence on such early examples
>>as the Sex Gang Children
><raises eyebrow>
>I thought that was more Adam & the Ants than Birthday Party!
Adam Ant and Andi SexGang.... If Siouxsie and Morrissey can duet, anyone can.
>> and the Inca Babies. Listen to 'Junkyard'
>>then listen to anything by the Inca Babies ... jeezus.
What was the album title? "Splatter Ballistics Cop"? Fantastic.
>Oh yeah, the Inca Babies were definite BP rip-offs, but I don't remember
>them as being particularly early in the scheme of things, nor were they
>of any importance to the goth movement... I'd throw in Ausgang as BP-
>influenced, too, but the same applies to them..
Yes, but where Inca Babies were cut' n'paste rip-offs everything I've heard of
Ausgang (which isn't that much) leads me to believe they should have had a
greater legacy than a footnote between SGC and TBP.
-----
H*ydn
breaking apart like I'm made of glass again
Greylock?
dance the two-step and proclaim:
>
>"Enough Is Never Enough"...
>
>I remember there being quite a long time between the first material and
>the album, but my perception of time back then was different...
Well the sounds between "Love Under Will EP" and "Enough Is Never Enough" are
fairly diverse enough to bear out that. The only other B&R I have is a tape I
came across by somewhat dubious means called 'Life After Death' which doesn't
even bridge the gap.
>> I only ever had a 12 inch single and some taped stuff. I would be
>>interested to hear the album.
>I remember it as being quite good, but not consistent.
>God knows what I'd think of it now...
You can tell why they called it Positive Punk.
><digs it out>
>
>Well, the title track is still as ace as I remember it - they don't
>write em like that any more!
Don't you think Possession bears an uncanny resemblance to an Rosetta Stone
track, particularly in the vocal structure?
>(and it even got good reviews from the music press at the time IIRC!)
>
>"Some like it hot", however, bears a perilous resemblance to Ghost
>Dance... "Your Sin" is also a bit iffy... "Roles" is good though...
>and... <skips through rest of album>
So, what are you going to resurrect then? :P
>You know, the odd thing about that album is that they were poppy (too
>poppy at times...) *and* avant-garde at the same time. Odd mixture.
For the most part it works. I still maintain 'Necromantra' or their Whip
contribution were the highlights... unless in the later case I'm thinking of
Brigandage.
Greylock?
dance the two-step and proclaim:
>Johnny Moda <J...@nospam.moda.freeserve.co.uk> wrote
>>>
>>Blood and Roses...Now there was a band that should have been huge, if a Goth
>>band could ever be huge.
>
>They were pretty good, but they were a bit too "We're so occult it
>hurts" for my liking at first... I think they grew out of that though...
So there's hope for Inkky Suk?
>> I haven't listened to my album since 1987, when
>>after a drunken escapade at a party it got split into two perfect halves.
>>
>Bummer :(
I still intend to buy a fireproof room safe to store my records in.
Locked with a combination only I know.
Of course I still intend to put all my vinyl onto CD.
Once I resolved the technical and time-management problems.
Greylock?
dance the two-step and proclaim:
>But now, ladies and gents, in our fragmented write-it-yourself
>history, we've more or less reached the second wave of goth - the
>'Gothic Rock' period,
>
> .... snip .... Along came the Nephelim, who were a Proper
>Rock Band with distinct hippy/metal tendencies....oh, and there was
>All About Eve, who *wanted* to be a Proper Rock Band, but were always
>too hippyish to carry it off. And there were more....
Is it just my experience in Australia, or is the All About Eve experience more
like a footnote in the Great History of All Things Goth?
I'd never suggest for a moment they were over-rated (at least until the end),
but their legacy seems to have been greater than the band deserved. A whole
chapter in Mercer Vol 1 devoted to a band that seems to have had little
enduring influence.
I could be wrong, I must admit I've never really *seen* any AAE albums to but
(my entire back cat is fifth generation taped copies), and they never seen to
have taken off as they might have.
They aren't in every record collection as the Nephs or SOM or Bauhaus... they
aren't regularly played at clubs or on the radio... Were they just a fantastic
live act or what?
Greylock?
Kraston) did dance the two-step and proclaim:
>wrote:
>>Keep in mind that Joy Division basically couldn't play. There's a very
>>good reason New Order use so many machines.
>>
>goth...and even out of goth..
Well based on all the empirical evidence I have (not having been there) the
band sucked as musicians - live at least.
I hold up Electronic as proof of that.
Blackbird
>
> Yes, today it's all about who has got the best Dracula outfit.
>
and since when did dracula wear cowboy boots, lace up kegs and spurs?
Yee Haw..
You're forgetting the.. who can look most like eastwood from the
unforgiven crowd!!
'quick, it's some mansonites.. look grizzled!'
--
Guy c/o:
Blackbird
>
> Well, sure, they were only human....
> I'm not saying they don't make mistakes, they're not perfectionist
> players perhaps, but I certainly wouldn't put them on the level of an
> infant banging on a piano...
And what exactly was wrong with Debbie Gibson !!?
Blackbird
> Along came the Nephelim, who were a Proper
> Rock Band with distinct hippy/metal tendencies....
But, you've gotta admit.. beat the shit out of the others in terms of
originality, performance and achievement. They ended up being classed as
a goth band because just about everyone else thought they were too
strange.. mixing influences, wierd lyrics, clean guitar sounds, E-bows,
flour, drug abuse, experimental concept albums.. sounds good enough for
goth to me.
oh, and there was
> All About Eve, who *wanted* to be a Proper Rock Band, but were always
> too hippyish to carry it off. And there were more....
>
> And, probably because all this music sounded reassuringly 'normal'
> compared to the stuff that had gone before,
Which by then sounded 'normal'.. and to some samey.. lets face it
Bauhause sounds as much like Joy division as the mission sounds like the
sisters. The only real advance (apart from the 'vision thing' album..
wich was a deliberate AOR rip off) was in musical complexity (and
talent).. Bass lines requiring more than one string started to appear..
arpegios of more than one chord were being used.. and hey presto..
everyone says its rock all of a sudden.
> these bands picked up a
> wide audience, got into the charts,
So did Bauhause though.. and joy Div.. and the others you mentioned
before..
> videos on telly, the works. Goth,
> or at least, the Gothic Rock tendency, was, for a time, almost big. It
> was certainly more visible to the casual observer; and, because the
> bands were all linked by their 'Proper Rock' approach, it was easy
> for people to get a handle on it.
I think thats a little cynical.. everything after bauhause was a sell
out!? Many of us wouldn't be hear if it wasn't for those bands.
> None of this bewildering diversity
> stuff: no art-punks, no weirdos. Just Proper Rock Bands playing Proper
> Rock. In black. With hats.
The Cult and the Mish were pretty bad I admit.. but there was *SOME*
good stuff.. Even the Mish had their moments.
> And thus a generation grew up thinking that Goth *was* Gothic Rock...
I don;t thinks its that clean cut.. its just people did the same things
s those before but in a much more polished manner. If you play rock
really really badly.. (help if your drunk or something) and try to make
it spooky and don;t care if it only has 3 chords, it sounds a lot like
early goth. Personally I think certain bands kept the momentum of the
original creativity going as the music matured..
Alex Page
>But imagine wearing all white to a goth club non-ironically.
Worse, imagine wearing all-white bridal gear to a goth club to be
chatted up by some bloke with the classic line of "Do you wear black
often?"...
Alex
NP: Sneaky Bat Machine - "Kiss the Bats" (Chaos Engine mix)
--
"My place is here, corrupting the young" - Lord Rochester, "Plunkett & Macleane"
Bah. It is Techno. It goes Beep.
MancGoff: http://www.gothicdreams.net/grimoire