Pagan paintings [Pan and Ganesh]
Peter H.M. Brooks
are most welcome. In particular, you will see paintings of both the
great god Pan, and Ganesh.
I will be updating this site in the next few weeks with drawings, pastels,
some more paintings and some digital art, I will post another update
then if any of this is of interest to these groups.
The URL is:
--
Peter H.M. Brooks
Orfeo
>
> Here are some paintings that may interest/amuse you. Any comments
> are most welcome. In particular, you will see paintings of both the
> great god Pan, and Ganesh.
I thought Ganesh was Hindoo?
-orfeo (just asking for it now)
--
"Let them see what is on the end of that long newspaper fork."
"Wouldn't you?"
-William Burroughs, 'Naked Lunch'
Remove the Fairie Arrows to reply
Peter H.M. Brooks
orf...@ELF-SHOTvirgin.net "Orfeo" writes:
> Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
> >
> > Here are some paintings that may interest/amuse you. Any comments
> > are most welcome. In particular, you will see paintings of both the
> > great god Pan, and Ganesh.
>
> I thought Ganesh was Hindoo?
>
Yes, Ganesh is a Hindu god, but Hinduism is, officially, a pagan
relgion.
--
Peter H.M. Brooks
Valkyrie
:>
: Yes, Ganesh is a Hindu god, but Hinduism is, officially, a pagan
: relgion.
Depends on your definition of pagan. One dictionary definition is 'a
member of a group professing any religion other than Christianity, Judaism
or Islam'. However, that's a slightly archaic use of the term - if someone
describes themselves as a pagan, they usually mean that they are wiccan or
gaeist (sp?) or a member of one of the earth/nature worshipping religions
- you'd never hear a hidu call themselves a pagan, so to refer to them as
such can be construed as somewhat perjorative.
Valkyrie.
Peter H.M. Brooks
ka...@disintegration.org "Valkyrie" writes:
I don't think so. After all, the main objection that Islam, Judaism and
Christianity have to pagan religions is that they are pantheistic, when
they make a big thing about being monotheistic. Hindus are quite happy
about being pantheistic.
If one called the idolaters, that might well be seen as insulting.
As with most pantheistic religions, many Hindu gods are representatives
of earth or nature. You don't get much more natural than Kali, the
destroyer! Ganesh is one of the nicer gentler gods.
--
Peter H.M. Brooks
Bridie Przibram
<pe...@psyche.demon.co.uk> writes
I realise you may be being brief for the sake of clarity, but according
to my readings, Shiva is the Destroyer, and Kali dances on his prone
body!
>
--
Bridie Przibram
Peter H.M. Brooks
Bri...@ty-gath.demon.co.ukfnordfnord "Bridie Przibram" writes:
> >of earth or nature. You don't get much more natural than Kali, the
> >destroyer!
>
> I realise you may be being brief for the sake of clarity, but according
> to my readings, Shiva is the Destroyer, and Kali dances on his prone
> body!
>
You are right!
I am thinking of producing a series of paintings of hindu gods. Any
takers?
My web site is:
St Loop
>>
Shiva is the Destroyer, and Kali dances on his prone body!
<<
Well, to be strictly fair, while Kali is a pretty straightforward
Dark Goddess, Shiva is more complicated. Hinduism itself is
complicated -- not a unified religion but a family of religions with
intertwined roots. It's as though we were applying a single word to
Judaism/Christianty/Mithraism/Islam/Zoroastrianism/Sufism/Kabbalism.
Shiva is an extremely ancient deity who was already "in place"
when the Indo-Europeans arrived in what is now India. In the original
Vedic religion -- which we regard as the foundation of Hinduism --
Shiva was excluded or held at a distance, since he belonged to an
older and wilder aboriginal tradition. In one famous image, is
appears as a Lord of the Beasts, seated in yogic posture surrounded by
wild creatures of the forest. (The image is strikingly similar to the
Gundestrup Cernunnos, except that it's nearly two millennia older.)
Carvings from the same era suggest that this early, little-understood
culture -- called the Indus Valley civilization for lack of any better
name -- also practiced Goddess-worship and human sacrifice.
Over time, an entire religion -- Shaivism -- grew up in which
Shiva is the Supreme Deity. This religion still exists, as part of
the large Hindu family. But in other traditions, Shiva is one of a
trinity of all-powerful gods, along with Brahman and Vishnu. In still
other traditions, he is simply one of the populous Hindu pantheon, and
it is in this latter, diminished capacity that we see him with Kali
prancing about on his slain (or sleeping) body. This is interpreted
as being a sort of death-and-rebirth symbol.
Some people -- including me -- regard Shiva as a primary
embodiment of divinity within nature, including human nature. We
don't really know what his name is; "Shiva" is an honorific term ("the
blessed") applied by Aryan priests who discovered him in the ancient
land their warriors had invaded. He is not really Hindu; the Hindus
found and adopted him *at least* a couple of thousand years after his
image was first carved in soft stone by the earlier Indus Valley
civilization. For all we know, he was known and worshipped in the
jungles of South Asia for millennia prior to that, without leaving an
archaeological footprint.
I personally think that the similarity between the earliest
images of Shiva and of Cernunnos (about whom we also know virtually
nothing) is an extremely meaningful "coincidence." They exist at
opposite extremes of the Indo-European continuum, and they both seem
to represent native deities who were discovered by the newly arriving
Aryans (in the southeast) and Celts (in the northwest). In a sense
they seem to represent a more fundamental stratum of human
consciousness, underlying and predating the later, heroic myths
involving warrior gods and goddesses. Cernunnos does not DO anything
in Celtic mythology. Neither does Shiva in the earliest Hindu and
Vedic tradition. They simply ARE.
Anyhow, that's my take on it.
Peter H.M. Brooks
>
> Some people -- including me -- regard Shiva as a primary
> embodiment of divinity within nature, including human nature. We
> don't really know what his name is; "Shiva" is an honorific term ("the
> blessed") applied by Aryan priests who discovered him in the ancient
> land their warriors had invaded. He is not really Hindu; the Hindus
> found and adopted him *at least* a couple of thousand years after his
> image was first carved in soft stone by the earlier Indus Valley
> civilization. For all we know, he was known and worshipped in the
> jungles of South Asia for millennia prior to that, without leaving an
> archaeological footprint.
>
So Shiva and Pan may be the same god?
--
Peter H.M. Brooks
St Loop
> So Shiva and Pan may be the same god?
I don't know much about the Greek dieties. But there's a French
scholar, Alain Danielou, who makes an argument that Shiva (in his
oldest, undomesticated form) is roughly identical to DIONYSUS, in his
oldest form. I'm not educated enough to evaluate this line of
analysis, but it makes for interesting reading. One of Danielou's
many books is called GODS OF LOVE AND ECSTASY: The Traditions of Shiva
and Dionysus (Inner Traditions, 1984).
--
Sagt es niemand, nur den Weisen,
Weil die Menge gleich verhoenet,
Das Lebendge will ich preisen
Das nach Flammentod sich sehnet.
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Orfeo
>
> In article <36F175...@ELF-SHOTvirgin.net>
> orf...@ELF-SHOTvirgin.net "Orfeo" writes:
>
> > Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
> > >
> > > Here are some paintings that may interest/amuse you. Any comments
> > > are most welcome. In particular, you will see paintings of both the
> > > great god Pan, and Ganesh.
> >
> > I thought Ganesh was Hindoo?
> >
> relgion.
coo. look what i started. and i was only being picky... i might as well
as said that pan wasn't pagan, he (it?) was classical greek.
-orf
Dan Bollinger
LOL, Â You did start something didn't you Orf! Â Â Â Actually, Pan is both Classical Greek and pagan. Â Â Pagan is not a religion, but a Christian descriptor of other religions. Â Â Pagan means "of the woods" Â so, any pre-christian religion which worshipped the spirits of trees, springs, rocks, sun and moon is pagan. Â Â This includes the Classical Greek and Roman polytheisms or pantheisms. Â Â Â Â By the way, pan is from the same word we get "panther". Â Â His attributes also show up in the Green Man and Dionysus.
--
Dan Bollinger
Wabash Men's Council
http://www.themenscenter.com/wabashmen
Orfeo <orf...@ELF-SHOTvirgin.net> wrote in article <36F538...@ELF-SHOTvirgin.net>...
Peggy J
other paths is that
in ancient times pre-xian and among current pantheists animists etc when
you moved from culture to culture you could and can say I am from ...
and i worship the rain god BOB and they would say Oh yes here we call
hin ED but his female aspect JANE does most of the work because the name
of the God was just a symbol to denote a Specific power that infused all
reality My Tara might be your Kannon or Laxmi but we would recognize
them as the same even though we had different stories names and differing
effects of them
peggy Sunsparrow ( back after a year without computer access)
St Loop wrote:
--
It's the folks who don't hear Angels or see faeries that I worry about.
Soulstar Adventures: Eclectic Spiritual Stuff
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1368
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Experience and/or learn Reiki,KaHuna, Crystal and Energy Healing
in Los Angeles County
Valkyrie
: Pagan means "of the woods" so, any
: pre-christian religion which worshipped the spirits of trees, springs,
: rocks, sun and moon is pagan.
My dictionary has it as coming from 14thC Ecclesiastical Latin 'paganus',
meaning a civilian (by inference from 'not a soldier of christ',
ultimately from 'pagus', a village. it's cognate with words such as
peasant.
I'm not sure how much store to set by that etymology though. But I also
can't see any obvious derivation from woods or trees either.
Valkyrie,
Ian Sturrock
writes
>Hmmm...take it from a Greek: pan comes from the ancient word παν which means
>whole/everything/everyone and gan from the word γαια which means earth. So I
>guess the two words combined mean everything about earth or all about earth or
>something...
Pagan is derived from the Latin paganus, meaning "country-dweller". The
connotations were probably derisory - peasant, hick, that kinda thing.
Pagan religions, to the Romans, were the old agriculture & nature gods,
only worshipped by ignorant rustic types, less sophisticated than
Jupiter & Mars & that lot.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Latin was derived from the Greek though.
--
"I am a free prince, and I have as much authority to make war on the whole world
as he who has a hundred sail of ships at sea, and an army of 100,000 men in the
field, and thus my conscience tells me." (Captain Bellamy. A Pirate)
Cliff Stabbert
>
> LOL, You did start something didn't you Orf! Actually, Pan is both
> Classical Greek and pagan. Pagan is not a religion, but a Christian
> pre-christian religion which worshipped the spirits of trees, springs, rocks,
> polytheisms or pantheisms. By the way, pan is from the same word we get
> "panther". His attributes also show up in the Green Man and Dionysus.
And, uhm, Satan.
Pete Scathe
>: pre-christian religion which worshipped the spirits of trees, springs,
>: rocks, sun and moon is pagan.
>
>meaning a civilian (by inference from 'not a soldier of christ',
>ultimately from 'pagus', a village. it's cognate with words such as
>peasant.
>
beliefs because the countryside took so much longer to convert to
Christianity than the more urban regions, hence the pre-Christian
survivals in small villages etc.
At one point (in the centuries directly following the Constantine
conversion) the term "rusticus" may also have had such connotations of
"uncultured country dwellers slow to get the point".
--
Pete Scathe (Next Resurgence: 11th April)
club info & daft haircuts: www.scathe.demon.co.uk/
NightStalker
<Bri...@ty-gath.demon.co.ukfnordfnord> wrote:
>In article <921797...@psyche.demon.co.uk>, Peter H.M. Brooks
><pe...@psyche.demon.co.uk> writes
>>In article <921796666.10173.0...@news.demon.co.uk>
>> ka...@disintegration.org "Valkyrie" writes:
>>
>>
>>As with most pantheistic religions, many Hindu gods are representatives
>>of earth or nature. You don't get much more natural than Kali, the
>>destroyer!
>
>I realise you may be being brief for the sake of clarity, but according
>to my readings, Shiva is the Destroyer, and Kali dances on his prone
>body!
Kali is a dark mother. She is a creator and destroyer in her own
right. Generally, she is depicted as dancing on Shiva's body in the
funeral grounds or as eating his intestines, I believe.
Shiva and Shakti (Also a face of Kali, I think) form the essence of
the balance of male and female, creation and destruction. Kali as the
Black Kali creates and destroys at the same time. Chaos.
Hawke
List Owner and Moderator - Alternate Lifestyles List and Mutiplicity List
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And I will sail my vessel, til the river runs dry.
Like a bird upon the wing, these waters are my sky.
I'll never reach my destination, if I never try.
So I will sail my vessel, until the river runs dry.
SSB Diplomatic Corps, Kansas City, MO
skyd...@kc.net or bloo...@the-lair.com
Dan Bollinger
Cliff, Â Â If you were a Christian around 50 A.D. and were wanting to promote your new religion wouldn't you make up stories about how the gods such as Pan, and Dionysus were "bad"? Â Â Â Pan also played the flute and danced, some Christian sects don't dance... Â Â The early christians were great spin doctors. Â Â The pagan festival Saturnalia became Christmas, Â Osiris being reborn is very much like Easter, etc., etc. Â Â Â Â
--
Dan Bollinger
Wabash Men's Council
http://www.themenscenter.com/wabashmen
Cliff Stabbert <c...@interport.net> wrote in article <36F5B244...@interport.net>...
> Dan Bollinger wrote:
> >
> > LOL, Â You did start something didn't you Orf! Â Â Â Actually, Pan is both
> > Classical Greek and pagan. Â Â Pagan is not a religion, but a Christian
> > descriptor of other religions. Â Â Pagan means "of the woods" Â so, any
> > pre-christian religion which worshipped the spirits of trees, springs, rocks,
Orfeo
> > "panther". His attributes also show up in the Green Man and Dionysus.
>
> And, uhm, Satan.
LOL! don't start it!!
satan is what happened when early xians wanted to decredit and belittle
various anti-xian gods... as did baal, beelzebub, lucifer, lillith, etc,
etc...
pro-xian ones became angels and saints...
-orfeo
Orfeo
>
> LOL, You did start something didn't you Orf! Actually, Pan is both
> Classical Greek and pagan.
yes, yes, i know, i know (and i know the various ideas as to the
dirivation...) i was just being silly again.
i suppose, pagan is a group term. it applies to each of the pantheons
that are running around, and to anyone who worships them or a
'cross-section' of 'em.
like me.
>His attributes also show up in the Green Man
> and Dionysus.
don't want to start an anthropological debate, as well...
Orfeo
> The Greek Pantheon or Dodecatheon 12 Gods:
> Zeus the god of all gods,
> Hera the goddess of home,
> Hefestus the god of fire,
> Dimitra the goddess of agriculture,
> Hermes the god of communications and trade,
> Afrodite(Venus) the goddess of beauty,
> Aris(Mars) the god of war,
> Apollon the god of music and light,
> Poseidon the god of water,
> Artemis the goddess of hunting,
> Athena the goddess of wisdom and...
> Pluto the god of Hades.
>
Eris! what about Eris?!?
you also missed out pan, persephone, heracles, and of course hecate. and
quite a few others- my classics are a little rusty.
and i think- i THINK- pluto is roman for hades... hades is the name of
the god of the underworld and the underworld itself.
-0rfeo
Valkyrie
:>
: ISTR that the term "paganus" was applied to people of pre-Christian
: beliefs because the countryside took so much longer to convert to
: Christianity than the more urban regions, hence the pre-Christian
: survivals in small villages etc.
Point taken. That's quite plausible - it may not have been until later
that the allegorically inclined church definied is as 'not a soldier of
christ'. My early medieval Latin isn't up to scratch enough to argue the
point, and I just lent out my latin Historia Ecclesiastica.
Bugger.
Valkyrie,
Nicholas Turner
Nef wrote in message <7d6cbb$a7r$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Orfeo wrote in message <36F69B...@ELF-SHOTvirgin.net>...
>>Eris! what about Eris?!?
>>you also missed out pan, persephone, heracles, and of course hecate. and
>>quite a few others- my classics are a little rusty.
>>and i think- i THINK- pluto is roman for hades... hades is the name of
>>the god of the underworld and the underworld itself.
>
>believed in. Apart from them there were all sorts of demi-Gods like
Heracles
>(son of a god and a human) for example.
>
>Never heard of Eris before (maybe you have mispelt it...) Persephone was
the
>daughter of Zeus and Demeter (which makes her a goddess but not one of the
>dodecatheon) who was carried off to the underworld by Pluto. I'm not sure
>about Hekate. I'm gonna have to look it up and tell you.
Hecate was a divinty often associated with Diana and sometimes Proserpine.
With Hecate representing the darkness of night in opposition to Diana's
light. She was the goddess of sourcery and could only be seen by dogs.
>Hmm...Pan was not a 'proper' God. Merely a wacko who hung out with
Dionysus,
>drinking loads of wine and getting off with many women ;)
Surely he was the god of flocks and shepards, worshiped by the rural and
hill folk, associated with the Satyrs???
Says Nick/Yaruar leafing through Bullfinch...
Ian Sturrock
writes
>Never heard of Eris before (maybe you have mispelt it...)
That's the spelling I've seen most often, though no doubt it looks
different in Greek...
She was the Goddess of Discord & Confusion, the unruly wench who started
the Trojan War by lobbing the oringinal Apple of Discord. Has quite a
large modern following, the revival being largely Robert Anton Wilson's
fault...
Her Roman name is Ate.
>I'm not sure
>about Hekate.
Queen of the Dead, moon goddess, mother of monsters, triple-faced.
Crossroads & triple paths are sacred to her.
>Hmm...Pan was not a 'proper' God. Merely a wacko who hung out with Dionysus,
>drinking loads of wine and getting off with many women ;)
>
I've heard that said a lot, but it's not entirely true. It's quite
likely that he was a very important figure in pre-historic Greece,
although obviously that period is pretty lacking in concrete evidence of
anything very much at all.
However, he was important to the Classical Greeks too - there was a
sanctuary to him in Athens, as a recognition of his assistance with the
victory at Marathon, & he was worshipped throughout Greece. Pan
Aristaeus was even worshipped as a kind of early form of Zeus.
He was even more important to the Romans, as Faunus/Lupercus - the
Lupercalia was a major festival in the Roman calendar, concerned with
honouring the she-wolf which raised Romulus & Remus.
>Hades is the name of the Underworld, yes but not the name of the god of the
>underworld.
Hades & Pluto are essentially the same God. You're right though, Pluto
was more commonly worshipped in Ancient Greece - being concerned more
with the "buried treasure/riches of the Earth" type of Underworld. The
Hades aspect was the Lord of the Dead type bloke, a bit more scary than
suitable for worship.
Dan Bollinger
St Loop, Â Â Â Thanks for that clarity on Shiva and the reference to Danielou. Â Â Â If Shiva is indeed similar to Dionysus and Cernunnos, then I'd edit your statement to read: Â Some people -- including me -- regard Shiva as a primary, masculine embodiment of divinity within nature, including human nature. Â Â
--
Dan Bollinger
Wabash Men's Council
http://www.themenscenter.com/wabashmen
St Loop <stl...@celticweb.com> wrote in article <36F35F...@celticweb.com>...
> Bridie wrote:
> >>
> Â Shiva is the Destroyer, and Kali dances on his prone body!
> <<
>
> Â Â Â Â Â Well, to be strictly fair, while Kali is a pretty straightforward
> Dark Goddess, Shiva is more complicated. Â Hinduism itself is
> complicated -- not a unified religion but a family of religions with
> intertwined roots. Â It's as though we were applying a single word to
> Judaism/Christianty/Mithraism/Islam/Zoroastrianism/Sufism/Kabbalism.
>
> Â Â Â Â Â Shiva is an extremely ancient deity who was already "in place"
> when the Indo-Europeans arrived in what is now India. Â In the original
> Vedic religion -- which we regard as the foundation of Hinduism --
> Shiva was excluded or held at a distance, since he belonged to an
> older and wilder aboriginal tradition. Â In one famous image, is
> appears as a Lord of the Beasts, seated in yogic posture surrounded by
> wild creatures of the forest. Â (The image is strikingly similar to the
> Gundestrup Cernunnos, except that it's nearly two millennia older.) Â
> Carvings from the same era suggest that this early, little-understood
> culture -- called the Indus Valley civilization for lack of any better
> name -- also practiced Goddess-worship and human sacrifice.
>
> Â Â Â Â Â Over time, an entire religion -- Shaivism -- grew up in which
> Shiva is the Supreme Deity. Â This religion still exists, as part of
> the large Hindu family. Â But in other traditions, Shiva is one of a
> trinity of all-powerful gods, along with Brahman and Vishnu. Â In still
> other traditions, he is simply one of the populous Hindu pantheon, and
> it is in this latter, diminished capacity that we see him with Kali
> prancing about on his slain (or sleeping) body. Â This is interpreted
> as being a sort of death-and-rebirth symbol.
>
> Â Â Â Â Â Some people -- including me -- regard Shiva as a primary
> embodiment of divinity within nature, including human nature. Â We
> don't really know what his name is; "Shiva" is an honorific term ("the
> blessed") applied by Aryan priests who discovered him in the ancient
> land their warriors had invaded. Â He is not really Hindu; the Hindus
> found and adopted him *at least* a couple of thousand years after his
> image was first carved in soft stone by the earlier Indus Valley
> civilization. Â For all we know, he was known and worshipped in the
> jungles of South Asia for millennia prior to that, without leaving an
> archaeological footprint. Â
>
Orfeo
> The Dodecatheon that I mentioned was the 12 Gods that the Ancient Greeks
> believed in. Apart from them there were all sorts of demi-Gods like Heracles
> (son of a god and a human) for example.
ahh, but they had far more than jsut those twelve. maybe they we're
classed as gods/immortals, but they were definatly god-like. the titans-
altas, cronos, rhea, helios, etc...
> Never heard of Eris before (maybe you have mispelt it...)
she was the goddess of strife and chaos. think female Loki.
> Persephone was the
> daughter of Zeus and Demeter (which makes her a goddess but not one of the
> dodecatheon) who was carried off to the underworld by Pluto.
'smy point... there were more than those 12. ;)
i'm not rtrying to be annoying about this, just being good-humouredly
picky. ;)
> I'm not sure
> about Hekate. I'm gonna have to look it up and tell you.
witch-goddess... another of the 3-faced goddess that crop up.
crone-aspect, i think. nasty, nasty woman. crossroads and suicides.
> Hmm...Pan was not a 'proper' God. Merely a wacko who hung out with Dionysus,
> drinking loads of wine and getting off with many women ;)
and that's a bad thing?!?
i think pan was the god of the saytrs, or the head of...
> Hades is the name of the Underworld, yes but not the name of the god of the
> underworld.
i'm sure it was... but anyway, we could go on for hours... ;)
-orfeo
Orfeo
> > she was the goddess of strife and chaos. think female Loki.
> Oh yes, because eris is the ancient word for erida which strictly speaking
> means dispute...
as my mate says 'god of strife... you just KNOW she was a woman.
perfect, innit?'
> Yes, we could. I did about 6 years of ancient greek mythology and history and
lucky you. greek myths used to be an obsession. that was before i
aquired the faerie-fixation.
> believe me we did have an awful lot of gods/demi-gods/muses and other
> mythological personas ;)
creative little buggers, weren't they?
-orf
Valkyrie
:>
:> i'm sure it was... but anyway, we could go on for hours... ;)
: Yes, we could. I did about 6 years of ancient greek mythology and history and
I did 3 years of norse mythology (among other germania), so ;-P
Valkyrie.
Tom Sulston
> > > she was the goddess of strife and chaos. think female Loki.
> > Oh yes, because eris is the ancient word for erida which strictly speaking
> > means dispute...
>
> as my mate says 'god of strife... you just KNOW she was a woman.
> perfect, innit?'
*FNORD* But everything you know is false. *FNORD*
--
+--Tom Sulston--------------------------------+
|ICQ# - 31612067 bs...@csv.warwick.ac.uk |
+---------------------------------------------+
Orfeo
coo. i'm jealous of you, too.
i wonder if i can do arthurian/celtic/faerie stuff at university...
-orfeo
Ian Sturrock
SHOTvirgin.net> writes
>i wonder if i can do arthurian/celtic/faerie stuff at university...
Almost certainly - I did English lit at Manchester uni ten years ago.
Even then it was considered to be one of the most conservative English
courses in the country, but I still got to do a whole course on
Arthurian Romance, & another one just on Blake which was pretty funky.
Though I was jealous of my mate Andy who went to do English at East
Anglia Uni at the same time & got to do a lot more mythological gubbins.
Valkyrie
: i wonder if i can do arthurian/celtic/faerie stuff at university...
Cambridge offers a course called Anglo-Saxon, Norse and Celtic. this is
what I did, though I focused more heavily on the germanic aspects. One of
the options is to borrow papers from the English tripos, which covers the
anglo-french arthurian material.
HTH
Valkyrie.
Bridie Przibram
SHOTvirgin.net> writes
>
>> I'm not sure
>> about Hekate. I'm gonna have to look it up and tell you.
>
>witch-goddess... another of the 3-faced goddess that crop up.
>crone-aspect, i think. nasty, nasty woman. crossroads and suicides.
In your opinion, m'dear. Depends what side of the fence yer on. Read
Demetra George's 'Mysteries of the Dark Moon' for a more 'enlightened'
perspective on Hecate and various other dark goddesses.
--
Bridie
Miriam McDonald
> i wonder if i can do arthurian/celtic/faerie stuff at university...
Well, as well as everything everyone else has suggested, Mediaeval Studies courses
probably cover some of those, and Welsh Studies courses certainly cover Celtic and
Arthurian. You'd have to learn Welsh, then too, mind (not a difficult language).
Miriam
analogTAO
heresy upon heresies. William Burroughs certainly came to a
more exact conclusion than Jung. Suppose that's because he was perhaps more
of a chemical as opposed to an (al)chemical Guru. Also unlike the rest of
the 'Beats' he never showed the slightest interest in all thing 'Oriental'
and never became a waffler like Ginsberg/Corso/Kerouac, etc. Mind I'd share
my 'stash' with Neil Cassidy- anyday!
"BRING IT ALL DOWN"
(shouldn't we?)
- William Burroughs.
the analogTAO.
Orfeo
heresy upon heresies. William Burroughs certainly came to
a
> more exact conclusion than Jung. Suppose that's because he was
huh?!? wot'd i do?!? i think burroughs is great... naked lunch made my
friend physically sick when i read out a passage to 'im. that's gotta be
great.
but jung is cool too. oh i dunno. they're saying similiar things.
they're both bloody sharmans, ok?!?
> of a chemical as opposed to an (al)chemical Guru. Also unlike the rest
(shrug) same fookin' thing, i reckon!
> the 'Beats' he never showed the slightest interest in all thing 'Oriental'
> and never became a waffler like Ginsberg/Corso/Kerouac, etc. Mind I'd share
aahh i much prefer him to those lads.
-orf, not really getting this atall, poor faeriegoff.
Orfeo
> Cambridge offers a course called Anglo-Saxon, Norse and Celtic. this is
> what I did, though I focused more heavily on the germanic aspects. One of
> the options is to borrow papers from the English tripos, which covers the
> anglo-french arthurian material.
ahhh cool. i'm being pressured into oxbridge anyway (wot an INTRESTING
mental picture orf!)
i'll prob'ly end up doin' english lit... ta to whoever suggested that
one!
-or-fey-oh... nearly at the end!
Penguin Boy
>
> Valkyrie wrote:
>
> > Cambridge offers a course called Anglo-Saxon, Norse and Celtic. this is
> > what I did, though I focused more heavily on the germanic aspects. One of
> > the options is to borrow papers from the English tripos, which covers the
> > anglo-french arthurian material.
>
> ahhh cool. i'm being pressured into oxbridge anyway (wot an INTRESTING
> mental picture orf!)
> i'll prob'ly end up doin' english lit... ta to whoever suggested that
> one!
At Oxford, the English course includes *compulsory* Anglo-Saxon and
Middle English, with the opportunity to do Old Norse and so forth as
well. I also avoided the dreaded Literary Theory by doing Latin poetry
instead.
You will enjoy yourself, especially if you get taught Anglo-Saxon and
Middle English by the charming Dr. Malcolm Parkes (at Keble), who will
probably serve your sherry at tutorials as well as being one of the
world's foremost authorities on said subjects and excellent and
infecting others with his enthusiasm.
Also, Oxford has a far bigger and better Goth scene. And Passion Play.
And part of Killing Miranda. :-)
AP
Miriam McDonald
> At Oxford, the English course includes *compulsory* Anglo-Saxon and Middle
> English, with the opportunity to do Old Norse and so forth as well. I also
> avoided the dreaded Literary Theory by doing Latin poetry instead.
Yes, but we do Anglo-Saxon at Lampeter, so it's not an unusual thing to study.
Or at least, they definitely did four years ago. I also did Welsh in my first
year, 'cause I've got a bit of German and French and wanted to see how they
compared, all being from different language groups.*
Literary theory is great fun, you just shouldn't take it too seriously. Theories
are like tools; use them all where they work and you'll end up with something
worthwhile at the end. OTOH, if you insist that a saw (modernism, structuralism
or whatever) is The Only Tool, you'll end up with a pile of bobbins.
Miriam
*Unsurprisingly, words nicked off the Romans were similar.
Orfeo
> worthwhile at the end. OTOH, if you insist that a saw (modernism, structuralism
i only ever use orfeoism and i end up fine... kinda.
> or whatever) is The Only Tool, you'll end up with a pile of bobbins.
just wot i always wanted!
--
"The play was about a man who lost his wife and had to go sing for the
gray king and queen who found her."
-Tad Williams, 'The Writer's Child'
Remove the Faerie Arrows to reply
Orfeo
> You will enjoy yourself, especially if you get taught Anglo-Saxon and
> Middle English by the charming Dr. Malcolm Parkes (at Keble), who will
> probably serve your sherry at tutorials as well as being one of the
> world's foremost authorities on said subjects and excellent and
> infecting others with his enthusiasm.
>
> Also, Oxford has a far bigger and better Goth scene. And Passion Play.
> And part of Killing Miranda. :-)
coo. sherry and killing miranda. i'm seduced already.
-orfeo
Valkyrie
Organization:
Penguin Boy <alu...@axcess.penguin.co.uk> wrote:
: At Oxford, the English course includes *compulsory* Anglo-Saxon and
: Middle English, with the opportunity to do Old Norse and so forth as
Yes, but afaik it's done from a linguistic, not a literary perspective, as
part of the History of the English Language option
which probably wouldn't suit Orfeo very well if he wants to learn about
pagan survivals etc. It's in there, sure, but you need a good teacher to
help you look in the right places! Anyway, it still doesn't include the
celtic option.
Valkyrie.
Valkyrie
Organization:
:>
:> Also, Oxford has a far bigger and better Goth scene. And Passion Play.
:> And part of Killing Miranda. :-)
We have Pimms and Rome Burns, and Lady Cadaver.
Valkyrie.
Sophia
Valkyrie <ka...@disintegration.org> writes
course which does mention some celtic stuff) then Manchester University (the
proper one) is a very good choice, but be careful you don't encounter the
horrific Scraggs. Manchester is also a very goth city.
re: Anglo Saxon paganism virtually nothing survives in the literature aside
from allusions in Beowulf - the monks did a good job of wiping it out.
Mind you, The Wanderer and The Ruin are pretty good and even Beowulf
has its moments...
Sophia:
Faith in fabulousness
Ian Sturrock
<Sop...@arxana.demon.co.uk> writes
>If you want Old English from a literary perspective (and a great A S art
>course which does mention some celtic stuff) then Manchester University (the
>proper one) is a very good choice,
Yep, I did that course. Do you know if Grevel Lindop's still there? He
used to run a "Specialist Author/Poet: Blake" course, which I think
Orfeo would get a lot out of.
Grevel is the only lit tutor I ever met who was quite prepared to admit
"we don't really have a clue what Blake was on about half the time,"
which I found most refreshing...
>but be careful you don't encounter the
>horrific Scraggs.
Indeed, any course they run is well worth avoiding (which I did), as is
anything involving "Mr Communist Literary Critic" Pirie. I had a
lengthy argument with him in which I couldn't get him to see that no,
Coleridge wasn't a part of the Wombyin-Repressing Phallocracy and that
the line "woman wailing for her demon lover" was a poetic metaphor
rather than the poet's attempt to demonstrate the essentially weak
nature of women.
>Manchester is also a very goth city.
Yeah, more so now that I'm no longer living there. :/
Carrie & Alex have between them managed to revitalize the netgoth scene
there at least, through a mixture of organization & extreme partying.
>re: Anglo Saxon paganism virtually nothing survives in the literature aside
>from allusions in Beowulf - the monks did a good job of wiping it out.
And some of the tutors try to wipe out even those allusions... :(
A lot of the English Language stuff you have to study in Manc is really
dull & pointless too, but it's more than made up for by that acid-crazed
hippy tutor & her course in Old Icelandic.
Sophia
gath.demon.co.ukfnordfnord> writes
>
>>If you want Old English from a literary perspective (and a great A S art
>>course which does mention some celtic stuff) then Manchester University (the
>>proper one) is a very good choice,
>
>Yep, I did that course. Do you know if Grevel Lindop's still there? He
>used to run a "Specialist Author/Poet: Blake" course, which I think
>Orfeo would get a lot out of.
Afraid I don't know about Lindop as I left in 1993 and have only rarely
been back.
>
>Grevel is the only lit tutor I ever met who was quite prepared to admit
>"we don't really have a clue what Blake was on about half the time,"
>which I found most refreshing...
Yes, indeed
>
>>but be careful you don't encounter the
>>horrific Scraggs.
>
>Indeed, any course they run is well worth avoiding (which I did),
I tried, oh how I tried, but I still ended up with a Scragg a year. They
succeeded in massacring Renaissance drama and especially OE that I
was nearly put off literature for life. They should have retired by now so
the world may be safe.
>as is
>anything involving "Mr Communist Literary Critic" Pirie. I had a
>lengthy argument with him in which I couldn't get him to see that no,
>Coleridge wasn't a part of the Wombyin-Repressing Phallocracy and that
>the line "woman wailing for her demon lover" was a poetic metaphor
>rather than the poet's attempt to demonstrate the essentially weak
>nature of women.
That sounds like Pirie all right.
>
>>Manchester is also a very goth city.
>
>Yeah, more so now that I'm no longer living there. :/
>
>Carrie & Alex have between them managed to revitalize the netgoth scene
>there at least, through a mixture of organization &
>extreme partying.
Good to see that the old standards are being maintained
>
>>re: Anglo Saxon paganism virtually nothing survives in the literature aside
>>from allusions in Beowulf - the monks did a good job of wiping it out.
>
>And some of the tutors try to wipe out even those allusions... :(
Tried bloody hard too.
>
>A lot of the English Language stuff you have to study in Manc is really
>dull & pointless too, but it's more than made up for by that acid-crazed
>hippy tutor & her course in Old Icelandic.
Dr Gale Owen-Crocker. She was fabulous and also the one who taught
the Anglo-Saxon art course, the only course I enjoyed because rather
than in spite of the tutor.
All this aside, I'd wholeheartedly recommend Manchester as a great
place spend three years, there is so much to do there.
Also, for the more daring student there is always the University's
selection of weird halls, including Allen Hall (where you say grace and
eat dinner wearing a black cloak with a great big crucifix on the wall
looking at you), Saint Gabriel's (combined hall and convent) or Owen's
Park, a massive complex where the windows don't open properly in a
bid - not always successful - to prevent the inhabitants from throwing
themselves out.
--
Sophia
Faith in fabulousness
Orfeo
> >If you want Old English from a literary perspective (and a great A S art
> >course which does mention some celtic stuff) then Manchester University (the
> >proper one) is a very good choice,
really? i thought it was all science...
d to run a "Specialist Author/Poet: Blake" course, which I think
> Orfeo would get a lot out of.
i love blake! not as much as eliot, but i love blake.
> anything involving "Mr Communist Literary Critic" Pirie. I had a
> lengthy argument with him in which I couldn't get him to see that no,
> Coleridge wasn't a part of the Wombyin-Repressing Phallocracy and that
> the line "woman wailing for her demon lover" was a poetic metaphor
> rather than the poet's attempt to demonstrate the essentially weak
> nature of women.
huh? i think it's just a cute line. ;)
ganconer!
> >Manchester is also a very goth city.
it's all a bit sciency, thou, innit?
> Carrie & Alex have between them managed to revitalize the netgoth scene
> there at least, through a mixture of organization & extreme partying.
such a suprise. alexander told me to go to oxford last night. his
arguement: easy for london- if i didn't go to slimes every fortnight i'd
whine about being stuck in bath/nottingham.
> >re: Anglo Saxon paganism virtually nothing survives in the literature aside
> >from allusions in Beowulf - the monks did a good job of wiping it out.
>
> And some of the tutors try to wipe out even those allusions... :(
same with celtic... you have ANY idea how much they fucked up the
mabinogion?
-orf
Alex Page
>Carrie & Alex have between them managed to revitalize the netgoth scene
>there at least, through a mixture of organization & extreme partying.
<bows> Gosh! Praise!
Although now we're all totally sk(i)nt and having to get jobs to
support our wanton partying lifestyle, at the great expense of our
degrees / PhDs / whatever...
Still, anyone brave enough to head Mancwards, for University or
otherwise, can pretty much garantee (sp?) a good time here! I'm able
to offer lots of crash space too.
And we have ducks!
Alex
--
"You win some. You lose more." - Alexander
MancGoff: Ruining bank balances since 1998!
http://members.xoom.com/grimoire
Alex Page
>All this aside, I'd wholeheartedly recommend Manchester as a great
>place spend three years, there is so much to do there.
Yep, biggest student population in Western Europe or somesuch, so the
place is always full of people, pubs, clubs and stuff. Admittedly,
most of 'em aren't goths, but you can't have everything!
> including Allen Hall (where you say grace and
>eat dinner wearing a black cloak with a great big crucifix on the wall
>looking at you),
Mwach! I haven't heard of that one! I would have applied!!!! Being the
Christian, charitable monastic fellow I am...
>Owen's Park, a massive complex where the windows don't open
>properly in a bid - not always successful - to prevent the inhabitants
>from throwing themselves out.
The room opposite mine in Wright Robinson last year was (IIRC) the
13th room on the 13th floor, and the site of (a year before) a rather
messy suicide of the vertical variety. Freaked the hell out of the
townie bloke living there... as did living opposite me and next to a
dodgy French satanist...
Orfeo
> Still, anyone brave enough to head Mancwards, for University or
> otherwise, can pretty much garantee (sp?) a good time here! I'm able
> to offer lots of crash space too.
>
> And we have ducks!
so... manchester's definatly out of the question for me then. ;)
Fleetie
Orfeo wrote in message <371230...@ELF-SHOTvirgin.net>...
>Alex Page wrote:
>
>> Still, anyone brave enough to head Mancwards, for University or
>> otherwise, can pretty much garantee (sp?) a good time here! I'm able
>> to offer lots of crash space too.
>>
>> And we have ducks!
>
>so... manchester's definatly out of the question for me then. ;)
S'all right; you pretty much have to be able to spell to come
here anyway :P :P :P
Fleetie.
Sophia
ee.umist.ac.uk> writes
>
>> including Allen Hall (where you say grace and
>>eat dinner wearing a black cloak with a great big crucifix on the wall
>>looking at you),
>
>Mwach! I haven't heard of that one! I would have applied!!!! Being the
>Christian, charitable monastic fellow I am...
It had a nice chapel but wasn't at all monastic. As far as I remember
the population consisted of public school rugger buggers. Think 'Animal
House' populated by people who had been to Eton and you will get the
picture. Avoid. (It's by the Toast Rack, if that means anything to
anyone.)
>
>>Owen's Park, a massive complex where the windows don't open
>>properly in a bid - not always successful - to prevent the inhabitants
>>from throwing themselves out.
>
>The room opposite mine in Wright Robinson
Never heard of that one. New, i.e. post-1993?
>last year was (IIRC) the
>13th room on the 13th floor, and the site of (a year before) a rather
>messy suicide of the vertical variety. Freaked the hell out of the
>townie bloke living there... as did living opposite me and next to a
>dodgy French satanist...
Serves him right.
>
>Alex
Carrie
>otherwise, can pretty much garantee (sp?) a good time here! I'm able
>to offer lots of crash space too.
But look what happened to the last net.goth tht came to Manchester and stayed
at yours - she went back a *completely* different person...;)
>And we have ducks!
And we mutate memes [1]!
Carrie
[1] Current works are: 1. The "hello" meme, wild-type to date.
2. The "trolley" meme, severely mutated.
Orfeo
> >coo. sherry and killing miranda. i'm seduced already.
>
> I thought I was easy. That's around £12, isn't it?
>
> :o)
I THOUGHT I WAS BEING STRONG!!! oh, the angst...
-orf
Carrie
Yup - we now have a total of 72 subscribers to mancgoff...:)
Carrie
"In the name of 'improving' our 'quality of life', we submit to
the prospect of totally engineered lives, and a new level of
dependence on and integration into the techno-industrial system."
- Gyorgy Scrinis, University of Melbourne, Australia
Alex Page
> I wrote:
>>Still, anyone brave enough to head Mancwards, for University or
>>otherwise, can pretty much garantee (sp?) a good time here! I'm able
>>to offer lots of crash space too.
>But look what happened to the last net.goth tht came to Manchester and stayed
>at yours - she went back a *completely* different person...;)
Wouldn't say "completely"... tho' I might have to do a one-off "I went
to Manchester and all I got was... trollied!" T-shirt!
Jodi
>Ian Sturrock wrote:
>
>> >If you want Old English from a literary perspective (and a great A S art
>> >course which does mention some celtic stuff) then Manchester University (the
>> >proper one) is a very good choice,
>
>really? i thought it was all science...
No that's UMIST.
>
>d to run a "Specialist Author/Poet: Blake" course, which I think
>> Orfeo would get a lot out of.
>
>i love blake! not as much as eliot, but i love blake.
I'd recommend against doing English at Manchester at present[1] - they
have taken all the content out of the Lit. courses and inserted lots of
cultural studies modules. When I interviewed to teach medieval lit, I
found out they only do Malory and Chancer, and then with reference only
to the language imagery etc. but with no reference to the history or
wider world view behind it.[2] There's a third-year arthurian romance
course but it's taught by the woman who most assiduously teaches
literature in a vaccuum.
Also, Grevel Lindop is retiring this year :( so there goes the Blake
course (seeing as I'm not there to teach it).
And the stupid new semester system doesn't work[3]
From what I remember about looking through prospecti, many years ago, if
Celtic stuff is your thing you're better off at a Welsh university. Oh,
and University of Toronto has an excellent Celtic Studies department!
Jodi
[1] Yes, I would, wouldn't I?
[2] Which is fundamentally opposed to my teaching ethos, so no surprise
I didn't get a job.
[3] At least from a teaching point of view - in February you end up with
300 exam scripts to mark and have tutorials to prepare for at the same
time!
Liz Stubbings
>Carrie & Alex have between them managed to revitalize the netgoth scene
>
Despite the fact that Alex is, let's face it, just a dodgy metal kid
:PPPPPPP
Fare thee well,
Liz (who is lovely really.....)
---
"I have yet to see a problem, however complicated, that when looked at in
the right way, did not become still more complicated." - Paul Anderson
Moomintroll
says...
>
>>Carrie & Alex have between them managed to revitalize the netgoth scene
>
>
>Carrie
>
Or do we - you and Mr X. were both subscribed three tines last time I
checked....
M.
Orfeo
> >i love blake! not as much as eliot, but i love blake.
>
> I'd recommend against doing English at Manchester at present[1] - they
> have taken all the content out of the Lit. courses and inserted lots
i really should sort out all this advise properly...
scary, eh? i DO value the UPG's opinions!
> to the language imagery etc. but with no reference to the history or
> wider world view behind it.[2] There's a third-year arthurian romance
> course but it's taught by the woman who most assiduously teaches
> literature in a vaccuum.
don't like arthurian romance really... prefer the originals. (more
faeries, more sex, less xian prop.)
> From what I remember about looking through prospecti, many years ago, if
> Celtic stuff is your thing you're better off at a Welsh university.
i'm not that desperate! ;)
ro...@elis.demon.co.uk
><3711c892...@news.mcc.ac.uk>, Alex Page <mchu7ap2@fs2.
>ee.umist.ac.uk> writes
>>
>>> including Allen Hall (where you say grace and
>>>eat dinner wearing a black cloak with a great big crucifix on the wall
>>>looking at you),
>>
>>Mwach! I haven't heard of that one! I would have applied!!!! Being the
>>Christian, charitable monastic fellow I am...
>
>It had a nice chapel but wasn't at all monastic. As far as I remember
>the population consisted of public school rugger buggers. Think 'Animal
>House' populated by people who had been to Eton and you will get the
>picture. Avoid. (It's by the Toast Rack, if that means anything to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>anyone.)
^^^^^^^^^
I'm afraid it does. Hulme hall made you wear gowns as well. Yes,
by all accounts, Allen was horrible. I had to contend with Needham, which
also did the grace thing and made one wear a shirt and tie on weekends. It
was mixed, so one had to deal with sloaney couples in matching rugby shirts.
I still managed to aquire a stalker, get my door smeared with blood, have
a drunken oaf repeatedly force his way into my room and confess to the same
murder etc. etc.
(Repeat "Anyone remember the old Banshee[1] ?" thread to fade,)
"Augeas"
[1] *Not* the beardy scottish one...
--
* ____________________________ *
* / \ aug...@elis.demon.co.uk \ "I'm only ever punk in drublic, and *
* \/_\ ________________________\__ I'd rather be a gunk than a poth." *
* \/__________________________/ *
Ian Sturrock
SHOTvirgin.net> writes
>don't like arthurian romance really... prefer the originals. (more
>faeries, more sex, less xian prop.)
When I did Arthurian Romance at Manchester we did cover the originals
too - I did a presentation on one of the Mabinogion stories.
Orfeo
>
> In article <371620...@ELF-SHOTvirgin.net>, Orfeo <orfeo.7@ELF-
> SHOTvirgin.net> writes
> >don't like arthurian romance really... prefer the originals. (more
> >faeries, more sex, less xian prop.)
>
> When I did Arthurian Romance at Manchester we did cover the originals
> too - I did a presentation on one of the Mabinogion stories.
cool. can you tell me where to find a copy of 'em? the best i've found
is the penguin classics version, but it's still icky.
Miriam McDonald
> cool. can you tell me where to find a copy of 'em? the best i've found
> is the penguin classics version, but it's still icky.
Can't tell you for sure, but I'd be willing to bet money (not much money
;-)) that the Uni of Wales Press does a version in Welsh... They might do
a bilingual version too for the benefit of students. It'd also be worth
you checking for other books such as the Black book of Carmarthen*.
(Tries summoning a creature that would know) Guy, Guy from Bangor: any
idea if they sell these things in your uni bookshop?
Miriam
*Doesn't contain any phone numbers, mind you.
Blackbird
>
> Orfeo wrote:
>
> > cool. can you tell me where to find a copy of 'em? the best i've found
> > is the penguin classics version, but it's still icky.
>
> Can't tell you for sure, but I'd be willing to bet money (not much money
> ;-)) that the Uni of Wales Press does a version in Welsh... They might do
> a bilingual version too for the benefit of students. It'd also be worth
> you checking for other books such as the Black book of Carmarthen*.
>
> (Tries summoning a creature that would know) Guy,
ugh?
Guy from Bangor:
Aaaaaahhhhggg.. !!
(guy is dragged, kicking and screaming, into the thread... )
> any
> idea if they sell these things in your uni bookshop?
Sorry, I've not actually been keeping up with this thread.. erm.. the
Mabinogion thingy? Well it's generally available in English
translation.. my GFs dad used to read them to her as bed-time stories..
wich probably goes a long way to explain certain aspects of her
character.. so I'd consider it highly likely that our library does
indeed contain the original Welsh. (If not.. it would be highly
embaressing for the council and they would be forced to pay large
amounts of money to have them installed). As for the Black Book of
Carmarthen.. I've no Idea.. sounds like art student territory to me..
the only books I read these days contain mucho maths, no plot, and are
written almost entirely in geek-speak.
Considering the furious degree of pride to which welsh heritage is being
preserved, I should say that many,many interesting texts are probably
available for the welsh reader.. although the rarest may be located in
the welsh national library in the Capitol, Cardiff.
--
Guy c/o:
Alex Page
>>Carrie & Alex have between them managed to revitalize the netgoth scene
>>there at least, through a mixture of organization & extreme partying.
>Despite the fact that Alex is, let's face it, just a dodgy metal kid
Yes, but I'm cunningly infiltrating the goth scene to destroy it from
my position of power and influence... this also explains me owning an
Ultraviolence album...
Alex
--
"My place is here, corrupting the young" - Lord Rochester, "Plunkett & Macleane"
MancGoff: http://members.xoom.com/grimoire
Orfeo
> Aaaaaahhhhggg.. !!
> (guy is dragged, kicking and screaming, into the thread... )
>
> > any
> > idea if they sell these things in your uni bookshop?
>
> Sorry, I've not actually been keeping up with this thread.. erm.. the
> Mabinogion thingy? Well it's generally available in English
> translation.. my GFs dad used to read them to her as bed-time stories..
to put it simply: i'm looking for an unbutchered, pre-xianised version
of the mab. ie the type where they quote arawn as being king of faerie
(annwn?) rather than a mortal.
i like arawn. it's a NICE name.
anglo-saxon'd be nice, too...
Miriam McDonald
> As for the Black Book of Carmarthen.. I've no Idea.. sounds like art
> student territory to me.. the only books I read these days contain mucho
> maths, no plot, and are
> written almost entirely in geek-speak.
Llyfr Du Caerffyrddin (think I've spelled that right) is another book of Welsh
folklore. It was written in the 12th-13th centuries and contains, among other
stuff, some of the Merlin tales.
> Considering the furious degree of pride to which welsh heritage is being
> preserved, I should say that many,many interesting texts are probably
> available for the welsh reader.. although the rarest may be located in the
> welsh national library in the Capitol, Cardiff.
I thought the National Library was in Aberystwyth - that's certainly where the
Welsh copyright library is. Wherever it is, that's where the Black Book is.
It's a shame there weren't more Saxon stories written down - England has one
of the oldest written vernaculars in Europe, but loads of it got lost. The
Welsh, on the other hand kept their stories, perhaps *because* they had an
oral rather than a written tradition for so long, and they got written down
when the Arthurian stuff started to become popular in the middle ages. With
major linguistic and political changes in England, a lot of the Saxon stuff
was forgotten (unless you count Robin Hood, which was really early Norman).
The Exeter Book only survived because it had a nice thick cover and was used
as a chopping board!
Miriam
Blackbird
>
> Blackbird wrote:
> > Considering the furious degree of pride to which welsh heritage is being
> > preserved, I should say that many,many interesting texts are probably
> > available for the welsh reader.. although the rarest may be located in the
> > welsh national library in the Capitol, Cardiff.
>
> I thought the National Library was in Aberystwyth - that's certainly where the
> Welsh copyright library is. Wherever it is, that's where the Black Book is.
Mmm I thought all them sorts of things had been relocated to Cardiff.
I'm probably wrong in this case though. You seem to know a good deal
more about this than I do, so I'd assume you're right. My knowledge of
literature falls off pretty soon after Steven King I'm sorry to say..
I've just started 'Wizard and Glass' at long last, but it's the first
non-work related thing I've read for years...
Orfeo
> I thought the National Library was in Aberystwyth - that's certainly where the
> Welsh copyright library is. Wherever it is, that's where the Black Book is.
cool. i have a cousin there.
> It's a shame there weren't more Saxon stories written down - England a lot of the Saxon stuff
> was forgotten
i blame the normans, meseelf. unlike the romans/greeks they weren't
academical enough to save folktales/myths/history (which were all pretty
much the same thing back then, i reckon...)
wales, like ireland and scotland, escaped the norman/xian invasions more
intact than england...
bugger.
-orf
Bridie Przibram
SHOTvirgin.net> writes
>
>to put it simply: i'm looking for an unbutchered, pre-xianised version
>of the mab. ie the type where they quote arawn as being king of faerie
>(annwn?) rather than a mortal.
I have a sneeky suspicion you'll be out of luck there - as with all
texts of this kind, the stories in the Mabinogion weren't actually
written down until well late, by which time any references to any pre-
christian ideas about the king of the fairies had been totally
subverted.
--
Bridie
Simon Kind
> > It's a shame there weren't more Saxon stories written down - England
a lot of the Saxon stuff
> > was forgotten
>
> i blame the normans, meseelf. unlike the romans/greeks they weren't
> academical enough to save folktales/myths/history (which were all pretty
> much the same thing back then, i reckon...)
> wales, like ireland and scotland, escaped the norman/xian invasions more
> intact than england...
'Byrhtnod spoke out, raised his shield,
brandished his slender spear, uttered words,
angry and resolute, gave them an answer'......
(The Battle of Maldon.)
Much as I hate to defend the Normans (as a Saxon re-enactor type), it was
their minstrels that popularised the Arthurian legends, and possibly
ensured their survival.
I think the Xtian Catholic church has to cop much of the blame. The Scots,
Welsh, and Irish had the Celtic Church, which was a lot more laid back and
tended to weave the 'old tales' into their own world view, whereas the
more militant Roman Church that converted the Saxon peoples just binned
all the old sagas as superstitious nonsense.
A company calles Anglo-Saxon books have done sterling work in making what
has survived of Old English literature available outside of academic
circles.
Catalogues from 10063...@compuserve.com
I think they have a website somewhere.
NP Maddy Prior, Raven Child.
--
The edges of sword are life and death.
No-one knows which is which.
Ikkyo.
Pwl
Black Book of Caermyrddin (dubious but about the closest i can get to
true-spell, heh) was in glass case there, last time i beheld. If you asks
_very_ polite, museum peeps might let you careful talon-turn the pages.
Ahh, but oh so careful with ancient tome! Such fragile beauty. [sigh]
I *think* there was a facsimile print available. Dunno who published or
ISBN. Aberystwyth would know, maybe sell copies.
Ech, i gave an original Lady Charlotte Guest translation of Mabinogion
to friend, only have the paperback Everyman edition myself. Still love
it.
Have a 12th-century poem (1905 copy) about a Raven, somewhere in mine
nest, if anyone wants an OCR copy sent. Even then, a bit wretched
xian-arrogant in contempt of my now-rare cousins.
CAW! Had a delightful-dark time at Slimelight, first visit on a Goffy-
Saturday. Been in venue on a dodgy-hired Friday. [insert wicked grin to
slimy-webmaster] My thanks to all there for courtesy to stranger. [bows]
Thanks too, that a crow-black song played by HTML-DJ. (;>) Ye are such a
wicked lot! It felt like home.
Bleak regards from Pwl the Sad Little Hroec
[tucks head back under wing]
Reply/CC by email fine to awaken (:>)
===========================================
Orfeo wrote:
>
> Miriam McDonald wrote:
>
> > I thought the National Library was in Aberystwyth - that's certainly where the
> > Welsh copyright library is. Wherever it is, that's where the Black Book is.
>
> cool. i have a cousin there.
>
> > It's a shame there weren't more Saxon stories written down - England a lot of the Saxon stuff
> > was forgotten
>
> i blame the normans, meseelf. unlike the romans/greeks they weren't
> academical enough to save folktales/myths/history (which were all pretty
> much the same thing back then, i reckon...)
> wales, like ireland and scotland, escaped the norman/xian invasions more
> intact than england...
>
Miriam McDonald
> Mmm I thought all them sorts of things had been relocated to Cardiff. I'm
> probably wrong in this case though.
It would probably be too large, and the public transport system and road network in
Wales is so dreadful I don't think they should move it - relocating everything to
the South would be a bad idea.
> You seem to know a good deal more about this than I do, so I'd assume you're
> right. My knowledge of literature falls off pretty soon after Steven King I'm
> sorry to say.. I've just started 'Wizard and Glass' at long last, but it's the
> first non-work related thing I've read for years...
I don't know that I know more about it than anyone else, but stuff I do/have done
means I've got a fairly good grounding in books. I've got a degree in lit., large
collection of books and review books for magazines occasionally.
Nothing wrong with Stephen King, though - the Dark Tower books are inexplicably
less famous than they deserve to be. My favourite one of his is "It", which is
brilliant and just about unfilmable (people have tried, and they have failed
miserably). People seem to assume King will be a bad writer because he's a horror
writer, and they assume his books will be as unremarkable as most of the films,
which is a shame.
Miriam
Currently reading: Philip K. Dick, "Through A Scanner Darkly"
Miriam McDonald
> orf...@ELF-SHOTvirgin.net wrote:
>
> > i blame the normans, meseelf. unlike the romans/greeks they weren't
> > academical enough to save folktales/myths/history (which were all pretty
> > much the same thing back then, i reckon...)
> > wales, like ireland and scotland, escaped the norman/xian invasions more
> > intact than england...
Hmm, I'll respond to Orf's comments here 'cause they haven't appeared on my
newsreader (most odd). The rate of Saxon literacy in Wessex wasn't equalled again
in England until the Victorians. When the Normans turned up, the English language
underwent significant changes, which made Saxon books somewhat unfashionable. That
said, Saxon culture was in a bit of a decline by then anyway. Welsh has changed
little as a language over the centuries. That and the fact that their early
culture was predominantly oral meant stories would be transmitted from person to
person, rather than in books. Their stories had more chance of surviving to be
written down.
> 'Byrhtnod spoke out, raised his shield,
> brandished his slender spear, uttered words,
> angry and resolute, gave them an answer'......
>
> (The Battle of Maldon.)
Yup, had to translate that at university, along with many other things. Great
poem, isn't it?
> Much as I hate to defend the Normans (as a Saxon re-enactor type), it was their
> minstrels that popularised the Arthurian legends, and possibly ensured their
> survival.
> I think the Xtian Catholic church has to cop much of the blame. The Scots,
> Welsh, and Irish had the Celtic Church, which was a lot more laid back and
> tended to weave the 'old tales' into their own world view, whereas the more
> militant Roman Church that converted the Saxon peoples just binned all the old
> sagas as superstitious nonsense.
The Saxons initially had strong ties with the Celtic Church - Oswald converted his
people (the Northumbrians) with the aid of a bishop from Dalriada. Hence the fact
that books like the Lindisfarne gospels exist. It's also possible that saga were
written down but destroyed due to the unfashionable nature of Saxon literature for
a long time. The Finnsburgh fragment, which appears to be from a longer poem about
an episode referred to briefly in Beowulf, was found when an old book was rebound.
It had been used for spine stiffenning. Who knows what could be binding old books?
(I say we seize the Bodleian and the British Library and RIP OFF ALL THE COVERS!)
Miriam
Steve Mortimore
<Bri...@ty-gath.demon.co.ukfnordfnord> writes
If you search through the secondhand book stores look out for the
novels of Evangeline Walton, she did the first four stories from the
Mabinogi, the first the Prince of Annwn covers the tale you mention
and is very good. - I think they were published by Pan Ballentine,
and are lon out print, but they do surface regularly in the shops.
Also Patrick Ford's translation of the Mabinogi itself is one of the
better one's. It's an American import though (PF is/was lecturer of
Celtic Studies at UCLA). - It's also got the story of Taliesin in there
also, which is often left out of collections.
Steve
Orfeo
(Snip: mimsy's socio-historical lit lecture)
> culture was predominantly oral meant stories would be transmitted from person to
> person, rather than in books. Their stories had more chance of surviving to be
> written down.
yep. that was my point. only you put it much better than me. ;)
that's
> (I say we seize the Bodleian and the British Library and RIP OFF ALL THE COVERS!)
i would, but i can't fucking get in.
Orfeo
>
> > much the same thing back then, i reckon...)
> > wales, like ireland and scotland, escaped the norman/xian invasions more
> > intact than england...
>
> 'Byrhtnod spoke out, raised his shield,
> brandished his slender spear, uttered words,
> angry and resolute, gave them an answer'......
>
> (The Battle of Maldon.)
lovely. ;)
i really should sort out which uni courses i should do if i want to do
stuff like that.
but it's wednesday, i can't concentrate.
> Much as I hate to defend the Normans (as a Saxon re-enactor type), it was
> their minstrels that popularised the Arthurian legends, and possibly
> ensured their survival.
ahhh but the minstrels are different.
i meant the norman government... who, i feel, along with the romans, did
an excellent job of producing 'the system' that oppresses us to this
day.
> I think the Xtian Catholic church has to cop much of the blame. The Scots,
> Welsh, and Irish had the Celtic Church, which was a lot more laid back and
> tended to weave the 'old tales' into their own world view, whereas the
> more militant Roman Church that converted the Saxon peoples just binned
> all the old sagas as superstitious nonsense.
both approachs annoy me... the 'xianisation' by the celtic church, the
the 'binning' but the romans. either way, the orginal truths are lost.
> A company calles Anglo-Saxon books have done sterling work in making what
> has survived of Old English literature available outside of academic
> circles.
> Catalogues from 10063...@compuserve.com
> I think they have a website somewhere.
cool. if it wasn't wednesday, i'd try and find out more.
-orf
Orfeo
>
> Hraek? [butting in uninvited, but can't resist]
since i asked the question, i feel quite safe in saying i don't mind
anyone contributing, as long as it gets me closer to being able to read
the mab in it's orginally pagan, faerie-filled glory.
> Black Book of Caermyrddin (dubious but about the closest i can get to
> true-spell, heh) was in glass case there, last time i beheld. If you asks
> _very_ polite, museum peeps might let you careful talon-turn the pages.
> Ahh, but oh so careful with ancient tome! Such fragile beauty. [sigh]
hmm. bad gothic poetry about a book?
i love old books, me. i really do.
> I *think* there was a facsimile print available. Dunno who published or
> ISBN. Aberystwyth would know, maybe sell copies.
i'll hassle my cousin about it... if i remember. i hate wednesdays...
nothing ever really lodges in my head. hang on. i'll make a note, then
stop rambling.
> Ech, i gave an original Lady Charlotte Guest translation of Mabinogion
> to friend, only have the paperback Everyman edition myself. Still love
> it.
tell me: did this LCG trans. have pagan or xian bias?
-orfeo
Orfeo
> >I have a sneeky suspicion you'll be out of luck there - as with all
> >texts of this kind, the stories in the Mabinogion weren't actually
> >written down until well late, by which time any references to any pre-
> >christian ideas about the king of the fairies had been totally
> >subverted.
bastards. and i know i'm probably out of luck- the wonderful yeats and
lady gregory kept the irish parts properly pagan, but i don't think the
welsh or saxon survived intact... (see above debate)
how about any decent re-tellings?
hmm? no?
>I think they were published by Pan Ballentine,
> and are lon out print, but they do surface regularly in the shops.
>
> Also Patrick Ford's translation of the Mabinogi itself is one of the
> better one's. It's an American import though (PF is/was lecturer of
> Celtic Studies at UCLA). - It's also got the story of Taliesin in there
> also, which is often left out of collections.
ta. i'll try... or rather, keep trying.
-orf
Jodi
>Nothing wrong with Stephen King, though - the Dark Tower books are inexplicably
>less famous than they deserve to be. My favourite one of his is "It", which is
>brilliant and just about unfilmable (people have tried, and they have failed
>miserably).
I thought "it" was wonderful - I plowed through it in about 3 days. The
other King book that is more "literary" than it first appears is The
Tommyknockers - lots of strange references to things like Dickens. Too
bad I didn't like the story much.
> People seem to assume King will be a bad writer because he's a horror
>writer, and they assume his books will be as unremarkable as most of the films,
>which is a shame.
Having said that, some of his books _are_ pretty miserable.
Firestarter, Carrie, Christine, . . .
Clive Barker is pretty uneven too but overall I like him a lot more.
And, have I plugged Joe Donnelly this week?
Jodi
Bridie Przibram
SHOTvirgin.net> writes
>Steve Mortimore wrote:
>
>> >I have a sneeky suspicion you'll be out of luck there - as with all
>> >texts of this kind, the stories in the Mabinogion weren't actually
>> >written down until well late, by which time any references to any pre-
>> >christian ideas about the king of the fairies had been totally
>> >subverted.
>
>bastards. and i know i'm probably out of luck- the wonderful yeats and
>lady gregory kept the irish parts properly pagan, but i don't think the
>welsh or saxon survived intact... (see above debate)
I would also take issue with the notion of Yeats and Lady Gregory
keeping things 'properly pagan' - it's a contraversial notion, I know,
but I feel it's a moot point as to whether the pagan elements are
original, or added in afterwards, bearing in mind the philosophies of
the Pre-Raphs and especially the Golden Dawn, who Yeats in particular
was rather heavily involved with.
--
Bridie
Jodi
>In article <371B65...@ELF-SHOTvirgin.net>, Orfeo <orfeo.7@ELF-
>SHOTvirgin.net> writes
>>
>>to put it simply: i'm looking for an unbutchered, pre-xianised version
>>of the mab. ie the type where they quote arawn as being king of faerie
>>(annwn?) rather than a mortal.
>
>I have a sneeky suspicion you'll be out of luck there - as with all
>texts of this kind, the stories in the Mabinogion weren't actually
>written down until well late, by which time any references to any pre-
>christian ideas about the king of the fairies had been totally
>subverted.
I've lost the post I meant to reply to, but anyway, the Mabinogion
wasn't written down until relatively late. The reason the Irish tales
are more "authentic" is not only because the Irish church was more
tolerant, but also because they were written down at a very early age.
The only other European culture where you get the mythology written down
shortly after Christianization is Norse/Icelandic, because they got
converted relatively late. So the mythology is pretty intact, and the
sagas show such a thin veneer of Christianity that we get a pretty good
insight into what Icelandic life was like before the conversion.
Jodi
Orfeo
>welsh or saxon survived intact... (see above debate)
>
> I would also take issue with the notion of Yeats and Lady Gregory
> keeping things 'properly pagan' - it's a contraversial notion, I know,
> but I feel it's a moot point as to whether the pagan elements are
> original, or added in afterwards, bearing in mind the philosophies of
> the Pre-Raphs and especially the Golden Dawn, who Yeats in particular
> was rather heavily involved with.
and i think that's in danger of being overly-purist... doesn't matter
wheather the ideas are new or old, but that they're in keeping with the
orginal pagan spirit.
ok so the golden dawn was messy, but those times were sooo much less
unrepressed than now. i think they did pretty well, all things
considered.
Pwl
Nearly missed your previous scribing. Hraek! It's gone all busy in here!
[shiver of feathers]
<<hmm. bad gothic poetry about a book?>>
Because I'm a _bad_ poet. Hraek! [pokes black tongue] Gothic? Eh, well
I'm getting caw-closer then. [bow]
[of Lady Charlotte Guest translation of Mabinogion]
<<tell me: did this LCG trans. have pagan or xian bias?>>
Hehe, I've just borrowed the book. Ech, apparently I was wrong: not via
me, but came from antiquarian booksellers at Hay-on-Wye (A whole town of
such! Wonderful place!) 2nd edition 1877, frontispiece dedication 1836.
Ummh, "about 40 quid." Bias? Hmm, I would say poetical. (:>) The cross
references take nigh half the text; explain many sources without much
regard to religious meddling. Heh. I'm not claiming it as scholarly-
accurate by modern definitions, but the dear old girl made a worthy
attempt.
Eh, I think there is a serious website somewhere about the author/book.
I'll billdig and post URL if I can find it again. (:>)
Oh, noted another thread in parallel to this (before swamped).... the
book also includes Taliesin, tho' oddly, seems late-xian mangled text.
[sidling away after sneaky-snatching your kerchief] Please do ask yon
Aberystwyth cousin. [tearing sound] Even on a wet Wodensday. Umhh, this
is best half for a nice nestlining. [weaves complex celtic knot in other
part, leaves on low branch] Caw? For reminder! Tell us all if original
still there?
Stirring the cauldron with a wicked beaky-grin.
Regards, Pwl the Sad little Rook.
"Over and standing down." Too much murdrous noise on ng at moment. (:>)
Email replies or CC to email. Thanks everyone. CAW! I flyaway, back some
quiet night.
Simon Kind
> It had been used for spine stiffenning. Who knows what could be binding
old books?
> (I say we seize the Bodleian and the British Library and RIP OFF ALL THE
COVERS!)
>
> Miriam
Best we pop over to the Vatican and annexe that too. I recall the Normans
flogged off much of our heritage abroad, where it was recycled, ending up
in big collections in Rome etc, and what survived the first attack got it
all over again when 'Enery VIII dissolved the monasteries (I never
realised monasteries were water-soluble).
Simon Kind
>
> lovely. ;)
> i really should sort out which uni courses i should do if i want to do
> stuff like that.
>
> but it's wednesday, i can't concentrate.
>
AS Books do a correspondence course in Old English, run in conjunction
with The English Companions, a society devoted to keeping the English
language and history alive (they seem to have more than the normal
allocation of Pagans too).
I keep meaning to try it, I'd love to be able to rattle off a few cryptic
verses of OE when the feeling takes me.
Alex Page
>It had a nice chapel but wasn't at all monastic. As far as I remember
>the population consisted of public school rugger buggers.
<koffkoffkoff> What's wrong with being a public school rugger bugger?
Actually, I never played rugby at public school, 'cause we were a
footie school, but...
> Think 'Animal House' populated by people who had been to Eton
> and you will get the picture. Avoid.
'Animal House' populated by Etonians? Hmm... target practice...
>>The room opposite mine in Wright Robinson
>Never heard of that one. New, i.e. post-1993?
I think it's kinda 60's, but it's a UMIST hall as opposed to a
Manchester Uni one.
Alex
--
"My place is here, corrupting the young" - Lord Rochester, "Plunkett & Macleane"
MancGoff: http://www.gothicdreams.net/grimoire
Blue Eddy
> less famous than they deserve to be. My favourite one of his is "It", which is
> brilliant and just about unfilmable (people have tried, and they have failed
> writer, and they assume his books will be as unremarkable as most of the films,
> which is a shame.
King's books can make good films just go and see The Shawshank
Redemption. It ain't horror but it is an out standing piece of work and
is based on one of his books.
B E