How Can I Get My Money Back?
Rafael
On February the 25th, I placed an order online for a DVD and paid by
PayPal. I have never received my DVD. My order history on the web
site STILL says that my order is 'In Transit'. Of course, I have
followed up with a great many emails but the company has only ever
replied to 2 of them and completely ignored the rest. Once, they said
they would 'see if there have been any incidents with my parcel' but
then never followed up on that, and the second said that they were
'processing my refund' but rather unsuprisingly, my refund did not
materialise. I continue to try to contact them but to no avail. I
cannot trace an address or contact number for them. I had thought that
they MUST provide contact information on their web site but they
don't. The 'Contact Us' page only allows you to contact them by email.
I suspect that they are overseas. I tried to open a dispute case
through PayPal. First they said that I should allow more time for
delivery because it was a 'cross border' transaction, which I did.
Then, when I tried again to open the dispute case, too long a period
had elapsed since the original payment and they wouldn't help me.
Crazy!!
The amount of money is only small (in the region of £12) and I can
well manage without that but I am furious that they feel that they can
get away with treating customers like this. It is a matter of
principle and I intend to fight for my money (or rubbish their
reputation in some way ;-) !!) but frankly, I don't know what to do
next or how to go about it. All methods of claiming refunds that I
can find seem to be for much larger sums of money. In addition, I
don't want to have to spend a lot to do it. What can I do? Could
Trading Standards help?
I'm hoping soneone can give me some guidance as to where to go next
please.
Forgive me if I'm posting in the wrong place. Perhaps you could point
me in the right direction if this is the case.
Thanks in advance for your help.
mustapha...@aol.com
Now start again. What is the name of the company?
Robin T Cox
> What can I do? Could
> Trading Standards help?
Consumer Direct may be able to help. They have a telephone advice line:
08454 04 05 06
See, for example:
http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/before_you_buy/be_aware_of/buying-
overseas
http://tinyurl.com/4jsq56
http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/after_you_buy/know-your-rights/overseas/
http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/after_you_buy/online_shopping/overseas-
problems/
http://tinyurl.com/2xmmgl
--
Facts are sacred ... but comment is free
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
Not if the vendor is based outside the UK, which would appear to be
the case if Paypal consider it a "cross border" transaction.
What's the URL of their website?
Mark
--
Pointless waffle (again) at http://mark.x.tc
"I'm gonna be there tomorrow"
Joe Lee
"Rafael" <rafael_r...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8db2a4b0-21d4-4bac...@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Hi,
Post the URL someone will likely provide the details of the registrant.
Forgive me if I'm posting in the wrong place. Perhaps you could point
me in the right direction if this is the case.
nothing wrong with posting here. You could also post to uk.legal or
uk.legal.moderated but I think there's very little that you do practically
to recover your money if it is indeed an overseas outfit.
The moral here is *never* make payment by PayPal. If a Co. only takes PP
payments then ignore them & go somewhere else.
Thanks in advance for your help.
--
Joe Lee
Rafael
phone number, I shall be eternally grateful!!!
Blah
> The company is www.dvdcrave.co.uk. If anyone can find an address or
> phone number, I shall be eternally grateful!!!
Registrant:
Jenny Elfman
Registrant type:
Unknown
Registrant's address:
310 Longmore Road
West Midlands
B90 3ES
GB
Registrar:
TimB
> The company iswww.dvdcrave.co.uk. If anyone can find an address or
> phone number, I shall be eternally grateful!!!
They're using a free shopping cart system with all default settings,
they only registered in January, and appear to be run from a
residential address (http://whois.domaintools.com/dvdcrave.co.uk). The
good news is that they at least appear to be UK based:
Registrant:
Jenny Elfman
Registrant type:
Unknown
Registrant's address:
310 Longmore Road
West Midlands
B90 3ES
GB
As a first step, write to the registrant at the registered address.
Simply knowing she's not untracable may shock her into action. Remind
her that, should she choose not to refund you, the costs of claiming
will be added to the amount she owes, and as a business, she will also
have to travel to your local court, not the other way round. Give her
a few weeks, then if you are so inclined, file a claim through
moneyclaim online.
Blah
There is of course a very small chance that the registrant is not the
owner/runner of the DVD business - it may be an agency that
operates/registers websites on behalf of others. In fact there is a tiny
chance that they might actually be a solicitor.
So the first letter might be better written - "Do you own or control the
website named, if not please advise contact details for court case"
Mark Goodge
and typed:
>On 29 May, 12:28, Rafael <rafael_romano...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> The company iswww.dvdcrave.co.uk. If anyone can find an address or
>> phone number, I shall be eternally grateful!!!
>
>They're using a free shopping cart system with all default settings,
>they only registered in January, and appear to be run from a
>residential address (http://whois.domaintools.com/dvdcrave.co.uk). The
>good news is that they at least appear to be UK based:
>
>Registrant:
> Jenny Elfman
>
> Registrant type:
> Unknown
>
> Registrant's address:
> 310 Longmore Road
> West Midlands
> B90 3ES
> GB
>
>As a first step, write to the registrant at the registered address.
That's also the address that's worth reporting to Trading Standards,
as well. If the site is being operated from within the UK, then it's
breaking the law by not having full contact information on it.
The other thing that's worth a look at is the full headers of any
email they've sent you. That will give a clue as to where they're
located, especially if the originating IP address is one that can be
checked via a geoIP system or clearly belongs to a UK organisation.
Mark
--
Stuff, some of it good, at http://www.good-stuff.co.uk
"The sky was made for us tonight"
Rafael
there.Thank you so much!
Just for future reference, are you able to tell me how you got hold of
this information please? I spent ages trying to find such details on
the Internet to no avail.
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>Wow!!! That's really helpful! There's is some valuable information
There are several places you can find the ownership details of most
domains, together with other useful information. Some of these are
worth a look:
http://www.domaintools.com
http://www.aboutus.com
http://www.who.is
Mark
--
Pointless waffle (again) at http://mark.x.tc
"You gotta live with your dreams, don't make them so hard"
Rafael
provide you with an update if you are interested.
I wrote to Jenny Elfman at the address above and incorporated TimB's
suggestions in to my letter . I sent it 'recorded / to sign for'. The
letter has just been returned to me as there is 'no such address on
Longmore Road'. How infuriating!!!!
In addition, I note that Jenny Elfman is also the name of a famous
person so has it just been used as an alias???? If so, how on earth
can they get away with this???
Looks like I'm going to have to write this off. I can't contact my
credit card company to help as the money came straight from my
account. Ggggrrrrrr!!!!!! I am SO cross about this but I'm thanking my
lucky stars that it was only £11-ish. I guess it could have been much
much worse.
Blah
- he'll happily drive by and confirm/deny existance of address.
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>I am so grateful for all of your help here. I thought that I would
>provide you with an update if you are interested.
>
>I wrote to Jenny Elfman at the address above and incorporated TimB's
>suggestions in to my letter . I sent it 'recorded / to sign for'. The
>letter has just been returned to me as there is 'no such address on
>Longmore Road'. How infuriating!!!!
>
>In addition, I note that Jenny Elfman is also the name of a famous
>person so has it just been used as an alias???? If so, how on earth
>can they get away with this???
It's quite easy, at least as far as registering a domain is concerned
- there aren't any checks made.
>Looks like I'm going to have to write this off. I can't contact my
>credit card company to help as the money came straight from my
>account. Ggggrrrrrr!!!!!! I am SO cross about this but I'm thanking my
>lucky stars that it was only £11-ish. I guess it could have been much
>much worse.
You may have to write it off your own loss, but if the website is
registered to a false address then you may find Trading Standards are
more interested in taking a look now. It's beginning to look less like
incompetance and more like deliberate fraud.
If you paid by PayPal, what was the recipient email address?
Mark
--
Pointless waffle (again) at http://mark.x.tc
"We were meant to live for so much more"
Mark Goodge
typed:
>Rafael wrote:
Domain name:
dvdcrave.co.uk
Registrant:
Jenny Elfman
Registrant type:
Unknown
Registrant's address:
310 Longmore Road
West Midlands
B90 3ES
GB
According to the address finder at royalmail.co.uk, Longmore Road only
goes up to 279. B90 3ES covers fifteen addresses, being the even
numbers from 226 to 252a on Longmore Road.
Mark
--
Pointless waffle (again) at http://mark.x.tc
"Take me or leave me, don't have to believe me"
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>I am so grateful for all of your help here. I thought that I would
Oh, and do you still have the emails they sent you?
Mark
--
Pointless waffle (again) at http://mark.x.tc
"Goodbye... And it's emotional"
Rafael
business name is 'TheMedia Ent' - written exactly as shown here with
no space between 'The' and 'Media'. Payment was sent to
'sa...@dvdcrave.co.uk' and the Customer Service (HA!!!) Email is
'thedv...@yahoo.com'.
Yes, I still have copies of the mails they sent me (all TWO of them -
both of which were lies!).
Blah
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>Right....according to my transaction details as shown in PayPal, the
Good. Can you extract the full headers from those emails, and post
them here? If you don't know how to do that using your email software,
tell us what it is and someone will probably be able to help.
Mark
--
Pointless waffle (again) at http://mark.x.tc
"Don't hold on to your past"
Joe Lee
"Mark Goodge" <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in message
news:22ui54lrf133ut6kt...@news.markshouse.net...
> On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:48:06 -0700 (PDT), Rafael put finger to
> keyboard and typed:
>
>>Right....according to my transaction details as shown in PayPal, the
>>business name is 'TheMedia Ent' - written exactly as shown here with
>>no space between 'The' and 'Media'. Payment was sent to
>>'sa...@dvdcrave.co.uk' and the Customer Service (HA!!!) Email is
>>'thedv...@yahoo.com'.
>>
>>Yes, I still have copies of the mails they sent me (all TWO of them -
>>both of which were lies!).
>
> Good. Can you extract the full headers from those emails, and post
> them here? If you don't know how to do that using your email software,
> tell us what it is and someone will probably be able to help.
Good work fella, keep it up.
I know there's not much money involved but it's satisfying just to trace the
cheats.
BTW is there no offence in publishing incorrect/false contact details either
on a site or as a registrant ?
Anything in Company registration laws that would apply to an outfit
describing itself as <whatever>.co.uk ?
--
Joe Lee
steve robinson
No
--
Blah
> On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:48:06 -0700 (PDT), Rafael put finger to
> keyboard and typed:
>
>> Right....according to my transaction details as shown in PayPal, the
>> business name is 'TheMedia Ent' - written exactly as shown here with
>> no space between 'The' and 'Media'. Payment was sent to
>> 'sa...@dvdcrave.co.uk' and the Customer Service (HA!!!) Email is
>> 'thedv...@yahoo.com'.
>>
>> Yes, I still have copies of the mails they sent me (all TWO of them -
>> both of which were lies!).
>
> Good. Can you extract the full headers from those emails, and post
> them here? If you don't know how to do that using your email software,
> tell us what it is and someone will probably be able to help.
>
> Mark
I don't hold out hope on that score - the website was registered by a
german company http://www.key-systems.net/index_en.php
and appears to be hosted in Denver
Registrant:
WeHostWebSites.com
1801 California Street
Suite 240
Denver CO 80202
US
I think the Birmingham connection is a red herring, perhaps the culprit
lived near there years ago and remembered the address.
What about the paypal connection, won't they repay?
Mark Goodge
typed:
>
>"Mark Goodge" <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:22ui54lrf133ut6kt...@news.markshouse.net...
>> On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:48:06 -0700 (PDT), Rafael put finger to
>> keyboard and typed:
>>
>>>Right....according to my transaction details as shown in PayPal, the
>>>business name is 'TheMedia Ent' - written exactly as shown here with
>>>no space between 'The' and 'Media'. Payment was sent to
>>>'sa...@dvdcrave.co.uk' and the Customer Service (HA!!!) Email is
>>>'thedv...@yahoo.com'.
>>>
>>>Yes, I still have copies of the mails they sent me (all TWO of them -
>>>both of which were lies!).
>>
>> Good. Can you extract the full headers from those emails, and post
>> them here? If you don't know how to do that using your email software,
>> tell us what it is and someone will probably be able to help.
>
>
>Good work fella, keep it up.
>
>I know there's not much money involved but it's satisfying just to trace the
>cheats.
>
>BTW is there no offence in publishing incorrect/false contact details either
>on a site or as a registrant ?
If the service is being operated from within the UK or the EU, then it
is a legal requirement for contact and ownership details to be
displayed on the site. This is something that Trading Standards would
take an interest in if it can be shown that the service is within
their geographical remit.
>Anything in Company registration laws that would apply to an outfit
>describing itself as <whatever>.co.uk ?
No. Anyone can use co.uk, it's plc.uk and ltd.uk that are restricted
to registered companies.
Mark
--
Stuff, some of it good, at http://www.good-stuff.co.uk
"Life is both a major and a minor key"
Mark Goodge
typed:
That's irrelevent; I'm hoping that the headers of the email will
reveal an originating IP address that can be traced to a particular
country. If that country is the UK, then that ought to be sufficient
evidence to show that the site is being operated from within the UK in
breach of various trade descriptions legislation. The aim here is to
get enough information to persuade Trading Standards to take action.
>What about the paypal connection, won't they repay?
According to the OP, no.
Mark
--
Pointless waffle (again) at http://mark.x.tc
"I've got too much life running through my veins going to waste"
Joe Lee
> On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 05:52:59 +0100, Joe Lee put finger to keyboard and
> typed:
>>
>>
>>I know there's not much money involved but it's satisfying just to trace
>>the
>>cheats.
>>
>>BTW is there no offence in publishing incorrect/false contact details
>>either
>>on a site or as a registrant ?
>
> If the service is being operated from within the UK or the EU, then it
> is a legal requirement for contact and ownership details to be
> displayed on the site. This is something that Trading Standards would
> take an interest in if it can be shown that the service is within
> their geographical remit.
>
>>Anything in Company registration laws that would apply to an outfit
>>describing itself as <whatever>.co.uk ?
>
> No. Anyone can use co.uk, it's plc.uk and ltd.uk that are restricted
> to registered companies.
Thanks Mark. Clearly some scammers have recognised this loop-hole & are
exploiting it.. Tempting to think the legislation needs tightening but that
would be pointless when the UK &/or EU would be powerless to enforce it
without bilateral agreements, which I can't see as being a priority at the
moment.
--
Joe Lee
Blah
One of the email addresses was @dvdcrave.com, the other @yahoo so I
would take the first as being hosted by the same as the website the
second obv could be anywhere. At best its going to reveal a uk ip
address which won't take us much further. After all trading Standards
are going to be up against the same wall of no address.
Mark Goodge
typed:
>
>"Mark Goodge" <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:08jl541v38ckkcf9p...@news.markshouse.net...
>> On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 05:52:59 +0100, Joe Lee put finger to keyboard and
>> typed:
>>>
>>>Good work fella, keep it up.
>>>
>>>I know there's not much money involved but it's satisfying just to trace
>>>the
>>>cheats.
>>>
>>>BTW is there no offence in publishing incorrect/false contact details
>>>either
>>>on a site or as a registrant ?
>>
>> If the service is being operated from within the UK or the EU, then it
>> is a legal requirement for contact and ownership details to be
>> displayed on the site. This is something that Trading Standards would
>> take an interest in if it can be shown that the service is within
>> their geographical remit.
>>
>>>Anything in Company registration laws that would apply to an outfit
>>>describing itself as <whatever>.co.uk ?
>>
>> No. Anyone can use co.uk, it's plc.uk and ltd.uk that are restricted
>> to registered companies.
>
>Thanks Mark. Clearly some scammers have recognised this loop-hole & are
>exploiting it..
It's not a scam. .co.uk is an open TLD[1]; anyone can register a
domain in it. That's by intent, not by accident. There are
deliberately no restrictions on its use, any more than there are for,
say, .com or .info. There are some TLDs that do have restrictions on
who may register them (including.ac.uk, .gov.uk, .edu, .mod.uk and the
aforementioned plc.uk and ltd.uk), but co.uk never has been one of
them.
[1] Actually, it's a subdomain, but it's treated as a TLD for
registration purposes.
Mark
--
Miscellaneous remarks at http://Mark.Goodge.co.uk
"A sky isn't always blue, a sun doesn't always shine. It's alright to fall apart sometimes"
Mark Goodge
typed:
The email addresses don't matter. There is absolutely no reason at all
why the emails should have been sent via the server that hosts the
website - in fact it's more likely that they weren't. It's the headers
of the emails that are relevent, as they may help identify the user of
the email address. For example, I can tell from your post to this
group that you're a customer of news.individual.net, and your unique
account ID is there so I can see if any other posts are by you even if
you use a different email address. I also know which news software you
were using (Thunderbird) and your operating system (Windows).
Email headers are, as a general rule, even more informative - it's not
unusual to be able to pin down an exact location that the email was
sent from. Which, in this context, would be very useful indeed.
Mark
--
Stuff, some of it good, at http://www.good-stuff.co.uk
"Yes, I know the truth, how 'bout you?"
Joe Lee
Oh I think you misunderstand me Mark, I am not suggesting that use of a
.co.uk domain name is a scam in itself, not at all.
What I am saying is that it's wide open to being used unscrupulously by
fraudsters who use it in order to give a potential customer the impression
that they are trading as a Company within the UK in order that such
customers will be deceived into believing they have the protection afforded
by UK & EU consumer protection law.
--
Joe Lee
Mark Goodge
typed:
>>>>
>>>> No. Anyone can use co.uk, it's plc.uk and ltd.uk that are restricted
>>>> to registered companies.
>>>
>>>Thanks Mark. Clearly some scammers have recognised this loop-hole & are
>>>exploiting it..
>>
>> It's not a scam. .co.uk is an open TLD[1]; anyone can register a
>> domain in it. That's by intent, not by accident. There are
>> deliberately no restrictions on its use, any more than there are for,
>> say, .com or .info. There are some TLDs that do have restrictions on
>> who may register them (including.ac.uk, .gov.uk, .edu, .mod.uk and the
>> aforementioned plc.uk and ltd.uk), but co.uk never has been one of
>> them.
>>
>> [1] Actually, it's a subdomain, but it's treated as a TLD for
>> registration purposes.
>
>Oh I think you misunderstand me Mark, I am not suggesting that use of a
>.co.uk domain name is a scam in itself, not at all.
>
>What I am saying is that it's wide open to being used unscrupulously by
>fraudsters who use it in order to give a potential customer the impression
>that they are trading as a Company within the UK in order that such
>customers will be deceived into believing they have the protection afforded
>by UK & EU consumer protection law.
It's only a scam if people think that co.uk indicates a Company
trading within the UK. But there's no reason why anyone should, since
it has never been promoted or publicised as such.
Mark
--
Pointless waffle (again) at http://mark.x.tc
"You surround me like a winter fog, you've come and burned me with a kiss"