The unnc urcm survey
Mark Goodge
current issues with urcm. If you have a moment spare, you can take it
here:
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/QG7MY9Y
Mark
--
Blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk
Stuff: http://www.good-stuff.co.uk
Jim Crowther
>I've used SurveyMonkey to create a basic straw poll about some of the
>current issues with urcm. If you have a moment spare, you can take it
>here:
>
>http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/QG7MY9Y
Heh. Filled in. ;)
--
Jim Crowther
John Blundell
Crowther <Don't_bo...@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> writes
I'm really looking forward to seeing the results. When will they be
published?
--
John Blundell
d...@telent.net
I think my vote's been lost as I haven't had an acknowledgement. This
is obviously a conspiracy
-dan
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
When I've got a hundred responses (the maximum I'm allowed on a free
account) or I get bored with waiting, whichever comes first.
.m
On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 21:16:27 +0000, John Blundell <m...@privacy.invalid>
said:
> I'm really looking forward to seeing the results. When will they be
published?
I wonder how many IP addresses the Chibal have access to (mis)using?
--
--
Sent from my phone (yes I know that may be sad)
Therefore please excuse errors in formatting,
spelling, typos, simple logic or reasoning.
Matthew Vernon
> I've used SurveyMonkey to create a basic straw poll about some of the
> current issues with urcm. If you have a moment spare, you can take it
> here:
>
> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/QG7MY9Y
If you were interested in being fair, a question of the form "should
the moderators' preferred contact email address be the primary means
of contacting them?" should have been in there.
Matthew
--
Rapun.sel - outermost outpost of the Pick Empire
http://www.pick.ucam.org
Robin Stevens
> current issues with urcm. If you have a moment spare, you can take it
> here:
> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/QG7MY9Y
Despite enabling the site's pointless javascript, I'm afraid I'm unable
to complete it given that Q7 doesn't give any option that meets with my
opinion on the issue (as posted round here the other day).
And the last page seems like the sort of gratuitous personal abuse that
sadly I've come to expect from several of the committee members.
--
Robin Stevens <re...@cynic.org.uk>
---- http://www.cynic.org.uk/ ----
Pedt
21:04:43 on Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Jim Crowther
<Don't_bo...@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> wibbled
Something wrong with the poll though. It's been half an hour and I still
haven't received my acknowledgement :)
--
Pedt
I used to be Unique, now I'm just Antique
Mark Goodge
and typed:
>Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> writes:
>
>> I've used SurveyMonkey to create a basic straw poll about some of the
>> current issues with urcm. If you have a moment spare, you can take it
>> here:
>>
>> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/QG7MY9Y
>
>If you were interested in being fair, a question of the form "should
>the moderators' preferred contact email address be the primary means
>of contacting them?" should have been in there.
I think that's simply the converse of question 1. And there is a
write-in section where anyone could make that point if they wanted. So
far, no-one has.
.m
On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 21:30:55 +0000 (UTC), Robin Stevens
<re...@cynic.org.uk> said:
> And the last page seems like the sort of gratuitous personal abuse
that
> sadly I've come to expect from several of the committee members.
Why don't you just fuck off back into the cesspit from which you
crawled, you snivelling, whining little shit?
(Have I misinterpreted your fatuous statement as an invitation - oh,
silly me...)
Tom Crispin
Was your vote sent from a hotmail or live account?
jms
<use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>I've used SurveyMonkey to create a basic straw poll about some of the
>current issues with urcm. If you have a moment spare, you can take it
>here:
>
>http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/QG7MY9Y
>
>Mark
Very comprehensive and relevant questions.
Some you have to think about.
Nigel Cliffe
> I've used SurveyMonkey to create a basic straw poll about some of the
> current issues with urcm. If you have a moment spare, you can take it
> here:
>
> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/QG7MY9Y
If you were interested in solving problems you wouldn't engage in personal
abuse.
- Nigel
--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/
Jimmy Button
Hold on, weren't you the votetaker in the corrupt
uk.local.yorkshire.moderated vote?
Mark Goodge
and typed:
>Mark Goodge wrote:
>> I've used SurveyMonkey to create a basic straw poll about some of the
>> current issues with urcm. If you have a moment spare, you can take it
>> here:
>>
>> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/QG7MY9Y
>
>If you were interested in solving problems you wouldn't engage in personal
>abuse.
If I see any reason to withdraw the abuse, I will. I've repeatedly
challnged Ian Jackson to apologise for deliberately misrepresenting
me, and so far he has pointedly declined to do so. If you think that a
more friendly approach is more likely to be successful, then feel free
to try. If you succeed in getting Ian to apologise, I owe you a pint.
Clive George
news:u36th59c7gejbtfi1...@news.markshouse.net...
> If I see any reason to withdraw the abuse, I will. I've repeatedly
> challnged Ian Jackson to apologise for deliberately misrepresenting
> me, and so far he has pointedly declined to do so. If you think that a
> more friendly approach is more likely to be successful, then feel free
> to try. If you succeed in getting Ian to apologise, I owe you a pint.
I see Ian making an arse of himself. However I see you responding by making
an arse of yourself as well.
Abuse may be satisfying in the short term, but if there are problems to be
solved, it won't help them.
This is all classic playground stuff.
Alan LeHun
Lee says...
> I mean, fancy Ian having the temerity to insist on the group
being
> created and operated in the way the CFV suggested, and was agreed on
> by the vote - disgraceful.
Not true. I certainly was under the impression that hotmail
users would not be blocked as default from contacting the
moderation team.
Now it appears that they are until they perform some hoop
jumping.
--
Alan LeHun
Pedt
Tue, 8 Dec 2009, . m <nos...@notnominet.name.invalid> wibbled
>On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 17:29:47 +0000, Phil W Lee
><phil(at)lee-family(dot)me(dot)uk> wrote:
>
>>But it isn't about being fair - it's part of an ongoing hate campaign
>>against Ian.
>
>Can you tell us why you point blank refuse to address the following:
>
>Message-ID: <8vddh5tco6pqr11sj...@4ax.com>
>
>Message-ID: <nTiI1kb0...@fishcake.eternal-september.org>
>
>and especially
>
>Message-ID: <ug1fh55fslo5hrad4...@4ax.com>
>
I'm not holding my breath.
Cris Galletly
And, while we're complaining about stuff, are all chiark users unable to post
to uk.religion.christian, or is it just me?
--
+ Cris Galletly <gall...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> +
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>In article <3bhted....@news.alt.net>, Jimmy Button <no...@none.none> wrote:
>>Mark Goodge wrote:
>>Hold on, weren't you the votetaker in the corrupt
>>uk.local.yorkshire.moderated vote?
>
>And, while we're complaining about stuff, are all chiark users unable to post
>to uk.religion.christian, or is it just me?
Matthew seems to be posting from the same host as you, and he's having
no problems as far as I can see. If you can give me an approximate
time for your most recent attempt to post, I'll see if I can find
anything in the logs.
Cris Galletly
Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>Matthew seems to be posting from the same host as you, and he's having
>no problems as far as I can see. If you can give me an approximate
>time for your most recent attempt to post, I'll see if I can find
>anything in the logs.
Well, I've sent three messages tonight. I think the "completely
disappeared into a back hole" messages were back in February or March.
I did less about it at the time than I should have done because I was
seriously depressed, and also thought that not accepting my messages
might have been an attempt to protect me from some of the more trenchant
members of the newsgroup about my name/gender change.
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>In article <iakai5tb7jvubtg71...@news.markshouse.net>,
I can't see anything in my logs. Can you give me a sample subject
line? That will let me search through the forwarding logs at
gradwell.com.
Mark Goodge
and typed:
>On 13 Dec 2009 21:18:49 +0000 (GMT), Cris Galletly put finger to
>keyboard and typed:
>
>>In article <iakai5tb7jvubtg71...@news.markshouse.net>,
>>Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>Matthew seems to be posting from the same host as you, and he's having
>>>no problems as far as I can see. If you can give me an approximate
>>>time for your most recent attempt to post, I'll see if I can find
>>>anything in the logs.
>>
>>Well, I've sent three messages tonight. I think the "completely
>>disappeared into a back hole" messages were back in February or March.
>>I did less about it at the time than I should have done because I was
>>seriously depressed, and also thought that not accepting my messages
>>might have been an attempt to protect me from some of the more trenchant
>>members of the newsgroup about my name/gender change.
>
>I can't see anything in my logs. Can you give me a sample subject
>line? That will let me search through the forwarding logs at
>gradwell.com.
Forget that, I've found them. They've been intercepted by the upstream
filtering as they've got an invalid To: line. I have no idea what can
have caused that, but I'll see if I can override it and let them
through. Hang on a mo...
<fx: tappity tap>
...OK, try it now.
Mark Goodge
and typed:
>On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 21:35:00 +0000, Mark Goodge put finger to keyboard
>and typed:
>
>Forget that, I've found them. They've been intercepted by the upstream
>filtering as they've got an invalid To: line. I have no idea what can
>have caused that, but I'll see if I can override it and let them
>through. Hang on a mo...
>
><fx: tappity tap>
>
>...OK, try it now.
By which I mean, of course, try resending them. I can't retrive the
lost articles from the bit bucket, unfortunately.
Cris Galletly
Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>I can't see anything in my logs. Can you give me a sample subject
>line? That will let me search through the forwarding logs at
>gradwell.com.
"Anglican 'Santa' barred from giving gifts to children at detainee centre"
was the one that I tried to post at least two messages to tonight.
The third I can't (easily) remember, unfortunately.
jms
>In article <3bhted....@news.alt.net>, Jimmy Button <no...@none.none> wrote:
>>Mark Goodge wrote:
>>Hold on, weren't you the votetaker in the corrupt
>>uk.local.yorkshire.moderated vote?
>
>And, while we're complaining about stuff, are all chiark users unable to post
>to uk.religion.christian, or is it just me?
Why not take it up with your system administrator in the first
instance.
Do you know who it is?
Matthew Vernon
> On 13 Dec 2009 20:30:56 +0000 (GMT), Cris Galletly put finger to
> keyboard and typed:
> >And, while we're complaining about stuff, are all chiark users unable to post
> >to uk.religion.christian, or is it just me?
>
> Matthew seems to be posting from the same host as you, and he's having
> no problems as far as I can see. If you can give me an approximate
My posting pathway will be somewhat different to Cris'.
Cris Galletly
jms <moderat...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>Why not take it up with your system administrator in the first
>instance.
>
>Do you know who it is?
Of course I know who it is. I didn't wish to take it up with him, as I
expected the answer "trn is bugggy, use gnus instead" and possibly the
removal of trn as a posting mechanism. And trn works just fine for me
for most groups, and I've been using it for 15 years and would rather not
have to switch.
Cris Galletly
Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>By which I mean, of course, try resending them. I can't retrive the
>lost articles from the bit bucket, unfortunately.
Will try later/tomorrow. Articles not saved here either, so I'll have
to create new responses.
This business of an invalid To: line is interesting (in the bug-fixing
sense of interesting) as it's only happened since the name change. On the
other hand, there is at least one moderated uk.* group I haven't been able
to post to for far longer than that.
... Ummm, perhaps I shouldn't just accept this as part of "shit happens",
should I?
jms
<gall...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>In article <ekrai51lbjkqoparu...@4ax.com>,
>jms <moderat...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>>Why not take it up with your system administrator in the first
>>instance.
>>
>>Do you know who it is?
>
>Of course I know who it is. I didn't wish to take it up with him, as I
>expected the answer "trn is bugggy, use gnus instead" and possibly the
>removal of trn as a posting mechanism. And trn works just fine for me
>for most groups, and I've been using it for 15 years and would rather not
>have to switch.
Have you considered graduating to a professionally provided service
which actually works?
Ian Jackson
Cris Galletly <gall...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>Well, I've sent three messages tonight. I think the "completely
>disappeared into a back hole" messages were back in February or March.
You might want to check in chiark. system.pre-moderation-lossage.
That gets a copy of all messages posted to chiark's news server and
emailed by the news server to moderators. (It doesn't get copies of
messages your newsreader decides by itself to email, but I don't think
your newsreader does that.)
Furthermore I see that there is a configuration bug which means mean
that it hasn't been expiring messages from that group at all. I'll
fix this eventually - but in the light of your message I'll put off
fixing it for a bit. So if you want to fish your messages out of the
.pre-moderation-lossage group, do it in the next day or two.
--
Ian Jackson personal email: <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
These opinions are my own. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
PGP2 key 1024R/0x23f5addb, fingerprint 5906F687 BD03ACAD 0D8E602E FCF37657
Ian Jackson
Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>Forget that, I've found them. They've been intercepted by the upstream
>filtering as they've got an invalid To: line. I have no idea what can
>have caused that, but I'll see if I can override it and let them
>through. Hang on a mo...
In what sense was the To: line invalid ?
Ian Jackson
Cris Galletly <gall...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>Of course I know who it is. I didn't wish to take it up with him, as I
>expected the answer "trn is bugggy, use gnus instead" and possibly the
What a pile of passive-aggressive nonsense.
Anyway, perhaps I should remind you of section 5 of the chiark rules,
which says that reporting bugs is mandatory. You agreed to those
rules, of course.
No doubt I can expect histrionics now claiming that I'm threatening to
cancel your account, or something. I'm not, I'm just try to fix any
things that are broken.
Alan LeHun
ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk says...
> No doubt I can expect histrionics now claiming that I'm threatening to
> cancel your account, or something. I'm not, I'm just try to fix any
> things that are broken.
>
In an as subtlety insulting a way as possible.
--
Alan LeHun
Ian Jackson
On the contrary, I didn't intend (or, I think, achieve) any subtlety,
in contrast to the subtextual insults in the posting I was replying
to.
Alan LeHun
ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk says...
> >In an as subtlety insulting a way as possible.
>
> On the contrary, I didn't intend (or, I think, achieve) any subtlety,
> in contrast to the subtextual insults in the posting I was replying
> to.
>
To be honest, I can't argue with that. I could change angles
and witter on about customer client relationships and best
business practices but I don't think that would be that
relevant either.
I'll get me coat.
--
Alan LeHun
Cris Galletly
Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>In article <5ow*s1...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
>Cris Galletly <gall...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>Of course I know who it is. I didn't wish to take it up with him, as I
>>expected the answer "trn is bugggy, use gnus instead" and possibly the
>>removal of trn as a posting mechanism. [...]
>
>What a pile of passive-aggressive nonsense.
Software withdrawn because it was supposedly buggy: pine.
Software no longer the default because it was supposedly buggy: nvi.
I haven't found a decent replacement for pine yet; I don't like mutt, but it's
better than any of the alternatives, and I dislike GUI interfaces.
I don't much like vim either, but there we are.
And as to your contention that one has to report bugs: how is one to tell that
something is a bug and not one's own fault/incompetence? For all I knew, it
could have been the moderator of urc not wanting to pass my messages. In fact,
that was what I thought it was.
Cris Galletly
Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>You might want to check in chiark. system.pre-moderation-lossage.
>That gets a copy of all messages posted to chiark's news server and
>emailed by the news server to moderators. (It doesn't get copies of
>messages your newsreader decides by itself to email, but I don't think
>your newsreader does that.)
Thanks, I've collected last night's messages now.
I *think* that the To: address in those messages was the same as that in
those that I remember having been accepted (anything prior to 2009, basically)
so I'm now even more confused as to what is going on.
Ian Jackson
Cris Galletly <gall...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>In article <URf*IR...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
>Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>What a pile of passive-aggressive nonsense.
>
>Software withdrawn because it was supposedly buggy: pine.
Pine was no longer supported by anyone - whether upstream or in Debian
- and hadn't been for some time when I withdrew it in late 2005.
I think you might have to pick a better example to garner sympathy.
The security situation with it was particularly worrying.
>Software no longer the default because it was supposedly buggy: nvi.
After the 2nd report from someone that nvi ate their work (due to a
character set conversion bug), I changed the default. You can still
have nvi if you want it. You think I should have kept the default the
way it was and just let the other users suffer ?
>I haven't found a decent replacement for pine yet; I don't like mutt, but it's
>better than any of the alternatives, and I dislike GUI interfaces.
You could try "alpine". (The original copyright holders for Pine
relented and a bunch of Free Software types picked up the carcass and
revived it.)
>And as to your contention that one has to report bugs: how is one to
>tell that something is a bug and not one's own fault/incompetence?
I took you at your word when you said that the reason you hadn't
reported it was that you feared I would do something nasty. So your
explanation now is that actually you didn't know it was a bug ? How
curious that your view of events should depend so much on the
counterarguments you happen to need today.
Cris Galletly
Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>Pine was no longer supported by anyone - whether upstream or in Debian
>- and hadn't been for some time when I withdrew it in late 2005.
>I think you might have to pick a better example to garner sympathy.
>The security situation with it was particularly worrying.
Is mutt that much better though? (Was the security issue about inappropiate
locking/failing to lock files? That's what I vaguely remember.)
Since you've reminded me that I have a duty to report bugs, I will mention
that sometimes when I have been reading mail using mutt on chiark, and my
BlackBerry had decided to sync itself at the same time, mutt has crashed
and dumped core. This hasn't happened for some time, so it is possible that
the bug has been fixed.
>>Software no longer the default because it was supposedly buggy: nvi.
>
>After the 2nd report from someone that nvi ate their work (due to a
>character set conversion bug), I changed the default. You can still
>have nvi if you want it. You think I should have kept the default the
>way it was and just let the other users suffer ?
No, I just think that perhaps I'm slightly more fatalistic about the
likelihood of their being bugs in software and just working round them if
the likelihood of fixing them is zero.
>You could try "alpine". (The original copyright holders for Pine
>relented and a bunch of Free Software types picked up the carcass and
>revived it.)
I probably shall. Has the security bug you mention above been fixed in
that?
>I took you at your word when you said that the reason you hadn't
>reported it was that you feared I would do something nasty. So your
>explanation now is that actually you didn't know it was a bug ? How
>curious that your view of events should depend so much on the
>counterarguments you happen to need today.
I assumed there could be a bug, but it certainly didn't seem clear it
was necessarily at chiark's end. In fact, I assumed it was at Mark's end,
tried to email him, couldn't find a working email address for him (and had
forgotten the URL where I should look to see the results of moderation on
the newsgroup) and gave up. The messages weren't particularly useful
contributions to the discussions in question, so why bother.
It didn't even cross my mind to contact you about it at the time; it was
only yesterday when jms suggested I contact you that I considered it, and
was worried that trn might suffer the same fate as pine (it's also rather
unsupported, isn't it?) I'd rather not be able to post to a few newsgroups
and be able to continue posting to most others using trn than have to put
up with something that's been as counter-intuitive as mutt has.
And maybe not being able to post to that particular newsgroup has saved me
a pile of flames anyway.
Robin Stevens
> >Cris Galletly <gall...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> >>Of course I know who it is. I didn't wish to take it up with him, as I
> >>expected the answer "trn is bugggy, use gnus instead" and possibly the
> >>removal of trn as a posting mechanism. [...]
> >
> >What a pile of passive-aggressive nonsense.
> Software withdrawn because it was supposedly buggy: pine.
Buggy, unsupported by pretty much anyone, and exposed to arbitrary data
from the internet is not a recipe for security. Besides which, alpine
exists[1].
[1] though appears to be being superseded by re-alpine.
--
Robin Stevens <re...@cynic.org.uk>
---- http://www.cynic.org.uk/ ----
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>In article <o8oai5515erbcub65...@news.markshouse.net>,
>Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>Forget that, I've found them. They've been intercepted by the upstream
>>filtering as they've got an invalid To: line. I have no idea what can
>>have caused that, but I'll see if I can override it and let them
>>through. Hang on a mo...
>
>In what sense was the To: line invalid ?
I don't know yet, in detail, I'll be able to say exactly what the
problem was when Cris has another go at posting.
However, whatever it was, it caused it not to match either of the
submission addresses. To give a bit of background, there are only
three email addresses that will reach the moderation system:
uk-religio...@moderators.isc.org,
uk-religio...@usenet.org.uk and the final destination address
(which isn't published anywhere). The two standard addresses both pass
through my account at gradwell.com, and at that point I do some basic
sanity checking to ensure that I am receiving a news article generated
by a news server (or moderation-aware news client, such as Turnpike)
rather than email spam. Since those are the only two addresses which
will cause mail to pass through that system (the direct address
bypasses it), and they are automatically generated by news software
rather than manually typed by humans, the filters check that the To:
address is one, and one only, of these, and nothing else (since no
correctly configured news server could ever generate anything else).
That cuts out all the spam that is sent to multiple email addresses,
or with the actual recipient in the Bcc: line and some other address
in the To:.
What I suspect may have happened here is that something like an
encoding mismatch may have occurred and the filtering has
misinterpreted something like a space or a line ending as part of the
address, and hence generated a fail when testing against the expected
To: address. If so, that ought to be fairly easy to fix; I just need
to see an example of what's triggering it so that I can account for it
in the filters.
jms
<ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>In article <5ow*s1...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
>Cris Galletly <gall...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>Of course I know who it is. I didn't wish to take it up with him, as I
>>expected the answer "trn is bugggy, use gnus instead" and possibly the
>>removal of trn as a posting mechanism. [...]
>
>What a pile of passive-aggressive nonsense.
>
>Anyway, perhaps I should remind you of section 5 of the chiark rules,
>which says that reporting bugs is mandatory. You agreed to those
>rules, of course.
I have found a problem with chiark not dealing correctly with emails
from Live and Hotmail.
Do you have a formal process for me to use to report it?
jms
<gall...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>In article <RID*fK...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
>Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>Pine was no longer supported by anyone - whether upstream or in Debian
>>- and hadn't been for some time when I withdrew it in late 2005.
>>I think you might have to pick a better example to garner sympathy.
>>The security situation with it was particularly worrying.
>
>Is mutt that much better though? (Was the security issue about inappropiate
>locking/failing to lock files? That's what I vaguely remember.)
ffs - this must be about as of topic as possible; and to any uk group
you can think of.
Please can you fuck off to chiark's own private forum.
Cris Galletly
Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>I don't know yet, in detail, I'll be able to say exactly what the
>problem was when Cris has another go at posting.
I've re-sent the three failed articles from last night.
Robin Stevens
Cris Galletly
Cris Galletly <gall...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>In article <mdvci5d68t1erbhba...@news.markshouse.net>,
>Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>I don't know yet, in detail, I'll be able to say exactly what the
>>problem was when Cris has another go at posting.
>
>I've re-sent the three failed articles from last night.
Sorry, make that two of them. The third I decided was probably best left
in the bit-bucket.
Robin Stevens
> Is mutt that much better though? (Was the security issue about
> inappropiate locking/failing to lock files? That's what I vaguely
> remember.)
Mutt is supported by upstream and by the Debian security team; while
bugs are occasionally identified (as with most software), they get
fixed.
> Since you've reminded me that I have a duty to report bugs, I will
> mention that...
Surely this could trivially have been sent through the correct channels
(the trn problem you didn't believe to be a bug so perhaps should be
excused).
> >After the 2nd report from someone that nvi ate their work (due to a
> >character set conversion bug), I changed the default.
> No, I just think that perhaps I'm slightly more fatalistic about the
> likelihood of their being bugs in software and just working round them
> if the likelihood of fixing them is zero.
Yes, bugs happen. Known bugs that eat data, however, should either be
fixed, or if this is not possible (as in something ' Nvi is intended as
a "bug-for-bug compatible" clone of the original BSD vi editor'),
avoided. Changing the default seems the eminently sensible method of
achieving this, particularly when nvi is no longer the default on new
installations. Those who prefer to play Russian Roulette with their
data can still use nvi if they really want.
In the hope of bringing things vaguely back on topic, I'll mention that
the nvi bug in question ate one of my newsreader config files :-)
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>In article <fIh*6n...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
>Cris Galletly <gall...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>In article <mdvci5d68t1erbhba...@news.markshouse.net>,
>>Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>I don't know yet, in detail, I'll be able to say exactly what the
>>>problem was when Cris has another go at posting.
>>
>>I've re-sent the three failed articles from last night.
>
>Sorry, make that two of them. The third I decided was probably best left
>in the bit-bucket.
They've been received, and approved.
However, the reason they failed before is because they've got this in
the headers:
To:
uk-religio...@usenet.org.uk,newsgate-moder...@chiark.greenend.org.uk
(that wraps here, obviously it's one line in the original)
That failed the sanity checking I explained in my previous post,
because it contains more than just a valid submission address. I don't
know why it's doing that; either it's some form of bizarre cock-up in
the configuration (does it think that ukrc is a local group?), or it's
trying to keep a copy of any posts to ukrc (or any moderated group)
but doing it by an extremely daft method (that's what Bcc is for, if
you want to archive things behind the scenes without breaking anything
which relies on the standard headers). Now that I know what's causing
it, I'll leave that particular filter off for now. But, even so, you
really ought to get that fixed (or use a more conventionally
configured news server), as it's quite possibly causing problems with
other moderated groups as well as ukrc.
Cris Galletly
Robin Stevens <re...@cynic.org.uk> wrote:
>Surely this could trivially have been sent through the correct channels
>(the trn problem you didn't believe to be a bug so perhaps should be
>excused).
I'm not convinced as yet that it's a bug in mutt. It could just as easily
be a bug with BlackBerry/Vodafone, and I don't expect them to look into
fixing any problems any time soon. Or it could be the interface between
the two.
I am sufficiently used to various bugs being unique to me that most of the
time I think it's my responsibility to work round them. I apologise that I
had forgotten that chiark users are supposed to report bugs; I'll try to
find out whether there are any more I've noticed (but mutt, vi and trn are
the only applications I use with any frequency these days).
I'm sorry if this is boring and off-topic to most of the denizens of unnc,
but there may be other people using these packages who aren't yet aware of
potential problems. This doesn't just apply to chiark, I am sure.
Denis McMahon
> ffs - this must be about as of topic as possible
No it's not.
You still don't understand this forum. If a discussion starts here, it's
on topic here.
Rgds
Denis McMahon
The Happy Hippy
> jms wrote:
>
>> ffs - this must be about as of topic as possible
>
> No it's not.
>
> You still don't understand this forum. If a discussion starts here, it's
> on topic here.
Though the charter for this group (u.n.n.c) does say -
For discussions concerning the creation, renaming or deletion of newsgroups
within the UK Hierarchy, especially those arising from RFDs published in
uk.net.news.announce in accordance with the Guidelines For Group Creation
within the UK Hierarchy. Discussions relating to connectivity, propagation,
and other non-configuration issues should take place in uk.net. Discussions
relating to the management of the uk.* newsgroup hierarchy, the committee,
officers and guidelines should take place in uk.net.news.management.
Cris Galletly
Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>However, the reason they failed before is because they've got this in
>the headers:
>
>To:
>uk-religio...@usenet.org.uk,newsgate-moder...@chiark.greenend.org.uk
>
>(that wraps here, obviously it's one line in the original)
The interesting thing is that (having checked in the local to chiark newsgroup
Ian mentioned earlier) this was also the case for messages accepted in 2007
and 2008 without any trouble. So something has changed, but I really don't
know what.
>But, even so, you
>really ought to get that fixed (or use a more conventionally
>configured news server), as it's quite possibly causing problems with
>other moderated groups as well as ukrc.
ukrc is the only moderated group I've tried to post to in years, so not that
big an issue.
Not having to use thunderbird or, worse, Google Groups is much more of a plus.
At some point I need to grapple with the issues of leafnode and the like, I
guess. Now might be that point, while I'm unemployed and all.
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>In article <aq4di5lbgjshrdq8u...@news.markshouse.net>,
>Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>However, the reason they failed before is because they've got this in
>>the headers:
>>
>>To:
>>uk-religio...@usenet.org.uk,newsgate-moder...@chiark.greenend.org.uk
>>
>>(that wraps here, obviously it's one line in the original)
>
>The interesting thing is that (having checked in the local to chiark newsgroup
>Ian mentioned earlier) this was also the case for messages accepted in 2007
>and 2008 without any trouble. So something has changed, but I really don't
>know what.
Yes, I've rewritten the software since then.
jms
I am sorry - I thought it was polite to at least try and conform to
the requirements of the charter.
If anything goes - then anything goes; thanks for putting me right.
Did you see Coronation Street tonight?
Ian Jackson
Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> the filters check that the To: address is one, and one only, of
>these, and nothing else (since no correctly configured news server
>could ever generate anything else).
My system puts an additional address in the To: line - the address of
the gateway which files the messages in the local
"pre-moderation-lossage" newsgroup. How tiresome that this
arrangement, invented a couple of years ago to deal with lossage in
one uk.* newsgroup, should now be triggering lossage in another.
I can imagine other news software using a similar trick to allow the
poster to keep a copy of their posting (eg by putting the poster's
email address in the To:).
So I think this check, that there are no other addresses, is wrong.
Ian Jackson
Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>However, the reason they failed before is because they've got this in
>the headers:
> Now that I know what's causing it, I'll leave that particular filter
>off for now.
Thanks.
>[...] doing it by an extremely daft method (that's what Bcc is for, if
>you want to archive things behind the scenes without breaking anything
>which relies on the standard headers).
It's not possible to do that easily. Adding ",<something>" to
/etc/news/moderators is easy and works for every other moderated
newsgroup.
> But, even so, you really ought to get that fixed (or use a more
>conventionally configured news server), as it's quite possibly
>causing problems with other moderated groups as well as ukrc.
I have had no reports of problems and most (although sadly not
all) of my users are pretty good at reporting bugs.
>To:
>uk-religio...@usenet.org.uk,newsgate-moder...@chiark.greenend.org.uk
Thanks very much for publishing that address in your posting.
I really wanted to have to spend 5 minutes adding a secret to the
address of the gateway in all the relevant places to avoid the gateway
destination getting clogged up with spam.
kat
Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> said
>
> I can imagine other news software using a similar trick to allow the
> poster to keep a copy of their posting (eg by putting the poster's
> email address in the To:).
>
I use silly old Outlook Express, which has this neat option "save copy of
sent messages in "Sent Items" folder". Is this unusual?
--
not speaking for the committee kat
>.^^.<
Alex Potter
> My system puts an additional address in the To: line - the address of
> the gateway which files the messages in the local
> "pre-moderation-lossage" newsgroup. How tiresome that this arrangement,
> invented a couple of years ago to deal with lossage in one uk.*
> newsgroup, should now be triggering lossage in another.
Indeed.
>
> I can imagine other news software using a similar trick to allow the
> poster to keep a copy of their posting (eg by putting the poster's email
> address in the To.
Why in the "To" header? Was there some pressing reason why it could not
have been (IMHO more properly) in the "CC" or "BCC" headers?
>
> So I think this check, that there are no other addresses, is wrong.
I don't. It seems to me like a very good filter, and probably one I'd
implement myself if my email system had a similar use.
--
Regards
Alex
Ian Jackson
Alex Potter <al...@ap-consulting.co.uk> wrote:
>Why in the "To" header? Was there some pressing reason why it could not
>have been (IMHO more properly) in the "CC" or "BCC" headers?
They way I've done it is a bit of a kludge. The software doesn't
support adding headers or even intend to support emailing multiple
addresses. It's just the case that if I separate addresses with a
comman in the config file, it puts them all in.
jms
<ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>>To:
>>uk-religio...@usenet.org.uk,newsgate-moder...@chiark.greenend.org.uk
>
>Thanks very much for publishing that address in your posting.
>I really wanted to have to spend 5 minutes adding a secret to the
>address of the gateway in all the relevant places to avoid the gateway
>destination getting clogged up with spam.
Are you saying that news postings are trawled to collect email
addresses? I thought that hardly happened these days.
I hope no-one publishes all of the chiark addresses in the public
domain in a news post as you could then become inundated by spam.
Still - I understand that you use aggressive spam filtering - so you
probably won't notice a problem.
(Have you ever noticed, that when you are reasonable to other people,
then they tend to reciprocate the action. On the other hand ......)
Geoff Berrow
wrote:
>> I can imagine other news software using a similar trick to allow the
>> poster to keep a copy of their posting (eg by putting the poster's
>> email address in the To:).
>>
>
>I use silly old Outlook Express, which has this neat option "save copy of
>sent messages in "Sent Items" folder". Is this unusual?
No, Agent does a similar thing.
--
Geoff Berrow (Put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker
Pedt
Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Geoff Berrow <blth...@ckdog.co.uk> wibbled
>On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 12:02:25 -0000, "kat" <little...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>> I can imagine other news software using a similar trick to allow the
>>> poster to keep a copy of their posting (eg by putting the poster's
>>> email address in the To:).
>>>
>>
>>I use silly old Outlook Express, which has this neat option "save copy of
>>sent messages in "Sent Items" folder". Is this unusual?
>
>No, Agent does a similar thing.
As does Turnpike, configurable on a per-personality basis or right down
to a per-newsgroup basis as to where to save the copy.
--
Pedt
+--+ World's 2nd Smallest Crossword
|1 | 1a. Pedantic with the eyes I hear. (1)
+--+ 1d. At the point I leave small Dutch coin. (1)
kat
Pedt" <"\"@ @\" <"\"@ @\""@some.oddities-etc.co.uk> said
> In message <vf7fi5dgfgck5qe94...@4ax.com>, at 14:33:15
> on Tue, 15 Dec 2009, Geoff Berrow <blth...@ckdog.co.uk> wibbled
>> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 12:02:25 -0000, "kat" <little...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> I can imagine other news software using a similar trick to allow
>>>> the poster to keep a copy of their posting (eg by putting the
>>>> poster's email address in the To:).
>>>>
>>>
>>> I use silly old Outlook Express, which has this neat option "save
>>> copy of sent messages in "Sent Items" folder". Is this unusual?
>>
>> No, Agent does a similar thing.
>
> As does Turnpike, configurable on a per-personality basis or right
> down to a per-newsgroup basis as to where to save the copy.
>
So if common software does this, why would this trick be so necessary?
Matthew Vernon
> So if common software does this, why would this trick be so necessary?
It's a system-wide thing, implemented as part of chiark's news-server
infrastructure.
Matthew
--
Rapun.sel - outermost outpost of the Pick Empire
http://www.pick.ucam.org
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>In article <mdvci5d68t1erbhba...@news.markshouse.net>,
>Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>> the filters check that the To: address is one, and one only, of
>>these, and nothing else (since no correctly configured news server
>>could ever generate anything else).
>
>My system puts an additional address in the To: line - the address of
>the gateway which files the messages in the local
>"pre-moderation-lossage" newsgroup. How tiresome that this
>arrangement, invented a couple of years ago to deal with lossage in
>one uk.* newsgroup, should now be triggering lossage in another.
I don't know how easy it is with exim, but with postfix it would be
trivial to do that at the MTA level rather than at the news server
level. Since the sender address is always that of the news server, all
it takes is a sender_bcc_maps entry for that address so that any mail
from it is (as the parameter name suggests) always Bcc'd to an address
of your choice.
But, anyway, I've taken the check out for now, so it doesn't really
matter.
jms
wrote:
>"kat" <little...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> So if common software does this, why would this trick be so necessary?
>
>It's a system-wide thing, implemented as part of chiark's news-server
>infrastructure.
>
>Matthew
Ah - that is now oh so clear.
Would you describe it as broken?
kat
Sara Merriman
Ian Jackson <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <5ow*s1...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
> Cris Galletly <gall...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> >Of course I know who it is. I didn't wish to take it up with him, as I
> >expected the answer "trn is bugggy, use gnus instead" and possibly the
> >removal of trn as a posting mechanism. [...]
>
> What a pile of passive-aggressive nonsense.
>
> Anyway, perhaps I should remind you of section 5 of the chiark rules,
> which says that reporting bugs is mandatory. You agreed to those
> rules, of course.
>
> No doubt I can expect histrionics now claiming that I'm threatening to
> cancel your account, or something. I'm not, I'm just try to fix any
> things that are broken.
*any* things?
--
Sara
Cuddler of rats, cats and husband