British Composers. WAS: Tony Blair defends Royal Family, etc.
Charlie Bond
Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov wrote:
> nob...@star-one.org.uk (Simon Gray) wrote:
> >That's 'cos elgar is totally overrated as a composer.
10p says the only thing by him you know well is the Pomp and
Circumstance marches. To call the Cello concerto overrated you must be a
bit skewed.
> >"The british have been completely incapable of fielding a decent
> >composer since purcell" - pierre boulez.
> As for decent British composers...Purcell was one.
Was he after Purcell?
Vaughan-Williams, Tippett, Britten, Ronnie Hazlehurst.
For crap composers, you could have Parry, Sullivan, Sterndale-Bennett.
(I'm not too keen on Boulez either, but I wouldn't call him crap).
Cheers,
Charlie
Simon Gray
Yo word up bro, massiv respeck. I wuz rappin wiv the uk.misc posse, & ma
main bro Charlie Bond dug us dis:
~ > nob...@star-one.org.uk (Simon Gray) wrote:
~ > >That's 'cos elgar is totally overrated as a composer.
~
~ 10p says the only thing by him you know well is the Pomp and
~ Circumstance marches.
ho ho.
--
Support the Campaign for the Respectablisation of Irrespectable .sigs
http://www.mahayana.demon.co.uk/ <--- now with Sights & Sounds !
Ian G Batten
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In article <342612...@biochem.usyd.edu.au>,
Charlie Bond <char...@biochem.usyd.edu.au> wrote:
> To call the Cello concerto overrated you must be a
> bit skewed.
It's good. It's very good. It's still over-rated.
Question: would it be anything like as well-regarded were it not for an
excellent recording made by someone who later died in sad circumstances?
Someone old enough to remember could perhaps comment on how well
regarded it was between Elgar's death and Du Pre's recording.
But more generally, time does give perspective. Note how most of
Britten's non-opera is fading from the repertoire with amazing speed.
ian
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Ian G Batten
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In article <9kraadp...@morticia.inmos.co.uk>,
Iain A F Fleming <ia...@galactic.co.uk> wrote:
> > made by someone who later died in sad circumstances?
>
> But it was highly regarded when she was still performing, was it not?
I don't know: although I played the cello in my teens, DuPre was already
very ill. From where I'm stood, it looks like the raising of DuPre to
tragic heroine status, with the works she recorded being carried along
with it. I'm _very_ cynical about the equation of dying young with
artistic supremacy, even though it's a popular one (were Hendrix still
trotting around the chicken-in-a-basket nostalgia circuit, on a bill
featuring The Drifters and Gerry and the Pacemakers, would he not have
become a figure of fun? Look how Presley is denied the status due to
him for those awesome, ground-breaking recordings in the fifties because
of the man he became. Imagine we still had Norma Jean Baker, fat, drunk
and old, rather that the youthful icon in our cultural memory.
> > Note how most of Britten's non-opera is fading from the repertoire
> > with amazing speed.
>
> Opera? Issa loadda crap, innit?
> 'Cept Monteverdi and Mozart, of course.
And Janacek. Whenever anyone disses opera, dig out ``From the House of
the Dead''.
I'm tempted to combine multiple young deaths and a distinct lack of
het-boy interest to re-see Jarman's film of Britten's War Requiem at the
locl art-house next month. But then, I could just re-read Edward Thomas
to see how a young death built Owen's reputation somewhat unjustly.
Imagine the cultural resonance of:
Diana Windsor, dead before she was 40
vs
Diana Windsor, bitter divorcee, living out her days
on a latterday Sunset Boulevard.
ian
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Illtud Daniel
Ian G Batten <I.G.B...@batten.eu.org> wrote:
>And Janacek. Whenever anyone disses opera, dig out ``From the House of
>the Dead''.
What's Dostoyevsky got to do with anything?
--
Illtud Daniel ida...@jesus.ox.ac.uk
-Read Mr Nice (now available in paperback!)- -Buy Radiator-
"What I don't understand is how Pavarotti got on a motorbike in
the first place." - friend's gran on the Diana affair.
Ian G Batten
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In article <60g74j$4b4$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>,
Illtud Daniel <ida...@jesus.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> Ian G Batten <I.G.B...@batten.eu.org> wrote:
>
> >And Janacek. Whenever anyone disses opera, dig out ``From the House of
> >the Dead''.
>
> What's Dostoyevsky got to do with anything?
Janacek used it as the basis for an opera. It's very good.
But you knew that anyway.
ian
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Ian G Batten
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In article <9kpvpwm...@morticia.inmos.co.uk>,
Iain A F Fleming <ia...@galactic.co.uk> wrote:
> Not all of them. Anyway, the '65 recording of 'cello concerto was, and
> is, a towering achievement. It is quite possible for a single
> performance of a good, but not brilliant work, to be of a quality well
> beyond the apparent potential of both the performer and the piece.
I'd go along with that: the recording is a towering work. I just don't
think the underlying piece is of the same stature. Van Morrison can do
awesome things with with most unlikely material: that says more about
Van than it does the material. In Du Pre's case, she was clearly
towering talent. The recording is fantastic. If the work were
fantastic, we'd be able to point to another recording of great worth
(for example, the Goldberg Variations are not reliant on one recording).
We can't.
> tossers). As a counter-example, look at Bob Dylan - he may be old and
> boring these days, but he ain't on the "chicken-in-a-basket nostalgia
> circuit".
Quite how you can say that when this very weekend he played to the
anarchic, rock and roll Pope, I don't quite know. I've seen Dylan play
live a few times, and I was about the youngest person there (most
recently when he toured with Tom Petty, so I'd have been in my mid- or
late- twenties): the coversation around me was about how his performance
compared to [while ago]. The obsessive Dylan-ites I know are both well
over forty. He hasn't made a record worth shit since `Street Legal',
and even that's pushing it --- `Blood on the Tracks' is the last of
undenied status, and that's more than twenty years old. Aging audience,
new work of lesser quality, seen as respectible: looks like nostalgia to
me.
There are very, very few rock performers of major status whose careers
wouldn't have been further enhanced by an early death to avoid all that
later waffle. Imagine how we'd view Bowie if he'd just taken one snort
too many somewhere between Low and Lodger.
> > Look how Presley is denied the status due to him for those awesome,
> > ground-breaking recordings in the fifties because of the man he
> > became.
> Anyway, he has a church of his own, and has had a US stamp, as well as a
> rather large number of fanatical devotees. I don't rweally think you can
> claim that Presley is "denied status".
Wrong sort of status. He has an obsessive, black-velvet painting,
following. He's denied status by ``serious'' people. Never mind the
shit: get out the original Sun recording.
ian
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Illtud Daniel
>
>In article <60g74j$4b4$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>,
>Illtud Daniel <ida...@jesus.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Ian G Batten <I.G.B...@batten.eu.org> wrote:
>>
>> >And Janacek. Whenever anyone disses opera, dig out ``From the House of
>> >the Dead''.
>>
>> What's Dostoyevsky got to do with anything?
>
>Janacek used it as the basis for an opera. It's very good.
You're kidding me. (I know about as much about classical music as can
be written on a Glass lyric sheet). Laff a minute, is it?
>But you knew that anyway.
Nay guv.
liv...@jnx.com
In article <60nlgq$3h2$1...@ftel.ftel.co.uk>,
>Iain A F Fleming <ia...@galactic.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Not all of them. Anyway, the '65 recording of 'cello concerto
>> was, and is, a towering achievement. It is quite possible
>> for a single performance of a good, but not brilliant work,
>> to be of a quality well beyond the apparent potential of both
>> the performer and the piece.
>
> I'd go along with that: the recording is a towering work. I
> just don't think the underlying piece is of the same stature.
> Van Morrison can do awesome things with with most unlikely
> material: that says more about Van than it does the material.
> In Du Pre's case, she was clearly towering talent. The recording
> is fantastic. If the work were fantastic, we'd be able to
> point to another recording of great worth (for example, the
> Goldberg Variations are not reliant on one recording). We
> can't.
I think it needs to be pointed out what lousy logic that is.
There can be several reasons why IYHO there is not another
"fantastic" recording. Other performers may be intimidated
by this one. Recording companies may not believe the market
can support more than one and so may not be willing to pay
enough to retain an outstandingperformer. Other performers
may be as snobbish about the composer as you appear to be.
None of these factors apply to the Goldberg. Rather, every
bit of snobbery works on its favour, both in the market and
also in obtaining outstanding performers.
You *might* be right about this work, but the argument you
presented above doesn't work. What's becoming noticeable
here is that you are using more and more strained "logical"
and and hominem arguments against bits of music when can't
convincingly explain your objections to these works on aesthetic
grounds.
jon.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Stephen Walker
ia...@galactic.co.uk (Iain A F Fleming) wrote:
>But the interesting thing about Dylan performances is the variation he
>effects on the songs - altered words, different verses, new
>arrangements. Never just "greatest hits like they were on the album".
>Compare and contrast with, say, Pink Floyd - the "live" `Pulse' versions
>of `Wish You Were Here' and `Dark Side of the Moon' are performed to be
>as close to the LP as possible. Same with Dire "digital" Straits. That's
>the really sterile kind of artist: no developmental imagination once a
>song has been finalised.
In the former case, I'm quite pleased that the Dave Gilmour road show
haven't been tempted to fiddle with the lyrics in Waters' absence.
I'd no objection in principle to Waters making changes to The Wall for
the Berlin concert, although I wasn't too keen on the execution of it,
or some of the artists he used. I don't mind Gilmour changing whatever
he feels like off the Division Bell or AMLOR, but I'd rather his other
half didn't bugger about with the lyrics of old PF stuff.
Steve
--
Steve Walker (email; swalker at nerc dot ac dot uk)
Email address spelt out and return field sabotaged
to deter spam.
Ian G Batten
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In article <9kk9g0m...@morticia.inmos.co.uk>,
Iain A F Fleming <ia...@galactic.co.uk> wrote:
> But the interesting thing about Dylan performances is the variation he
> effects on the songs - altered words, different verses, new
> arrangements. Never just "greatest hits like they were on the album".
I'll grant you that. The same applies, with equal or greater radical
changes (acoustic Born in the USA ahoy!) to Springsteen, Morrison et al.
> [ Dire Straits and Pink Floyd are ]
> the really sterile kind of artist: no developmental imagination once a
> song has been finalised.
Yeah, I think we can all go along with that. What's ironic is that I
saw the Roger Waters `Pros and Cons' tour (which was the first time my
now-wife and I went out together: hardly the most cheerful start!) which
managed to re-invent more than a few Pink Floyd songs, so at least one
of them could do it (Eric Clapton does `Wish you were here' --- awesome.
Awesome).
> > There are very, very few rock performers of major status whose careers
> > wouldn't have been further enhanced by an early death to avoid all that
> > later waffle.
>
> That's a bit harsh and suggests that the later waffle can't just be
> ignored and the earlier works looked at in isolation as period pieces.
But we can't, can we? At risk of descending into cheap post-modernism
and deconstruction, you can't take texts in isolation like that. You
can't look at early Stones records without knowing about Jones' death,
Altamount, and so on.
> > Imagine how we'd view Bowie if he'd just taken one snort too many somewhere
> > between Low and Lodger.
>
> For me, about as little as I do anyway....
It took me a while to realise what the fuss was all about. You know
that crack about ``Almost no-one bought it, but every one that did
formed a band'' about the first Velvets album? Well, if you listen to
`Heroes' you'll hear the following fifteen white years laid out...
> > Never mind the shit: get out the original Sun recording.
>
> Which are the dog's bollocks, I would agree.
Indeed.
>
> PS: I prefer `Jenufa' to `From the House of the Dead'. Cos it's cheerier.
As opposed to Katya Kabonova (sp?) which is even bleaker.
ian
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Ian G Batten
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In article <60o13t$m4b$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>,
Illtud Daniel <ida...@jesus.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> You're kidding me. (I know about as much about classical music as can
> be written on a Glass lyric sheet).
Some Glass has a lot of lyric, you know...
> Laff a minute, is it?
Er, no. The ending is transcendent, though. See it. Hear it. It's
best performed straight through, no interval (it's only about 90 minutes
long), mostly because it's so bleak that you'd drink yourself to death
in the interval.
ian
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Ian G Batten
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In article <9kpvpru...@morticia.inmos.co.uk>,
Iain A F Fleming <ia...@galactic.co.uk> wrote:
> predudice: "oh, you might like Radiohead now, but they'll do a country album
> in 2002".
There's a great country album inside every great artist. It's just a
matter of spotting which one it is.
> Also, post-modernism is bullshit.
Thanks for that. Later we will discuss the later works of Wittgenstein
(``tosh!'') and Popper's work on method of science (``bollocks'').
> Do you perchance listen to Lenoard Cohen for jollys?
No. A friend of mine and I did attend a Laughin' Len gig as our first
night out together after not seeing each other for six months, mind
you. And I have been listening to Portishead this morning.
ian
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Kathryn Quinn
Simon Gray <nob...@star-one.org.uk> writes
>Any opera that has the line "They fight because they fight, & because
>they fight, they fight" in it needs throwing straight in the bin...
Not a million miles away from the Itchy and Scratchy music, that..
--
"So here we are. It's the day of the Grand National,
and we're talking to Bob Cancer...err...Champion"
-Sir Desmond of Lynam
Kathryn at quinnster.demon.co.uk
Ian G Batten
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In article <9kn2ktv...@morticia.inmos.co.uk>,
Iain A F Fleming <ia...@galactic.co.uk> wrote:
> > There's a great country album inside every great artist. It's just a
> > matter of spotting which one it is.
>
> Offhand I can only think of 2: Costello's ``Roses'' and Grateful Dead
> ``Workingman's''.
Springsteen's `Ghost of Tom Joad'. Fleetwood Mac's `Tusk' (which makes
a hell of a lot more sense when you realise that Buckingham was
producing John Stewart's `Bombs Away Dream Babies', with Nicks doing the
vocals).
ian
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Simon Gray
Yo word up bro, massiv respeck. I wuz rappin wiv the uk.misc posse, & ma
~ > You're kidding me. (I know about as much about classical music as can
~ > be written on a Glass lyric sheet).
~
~ Some Glass has a lot of lyric, you know...
Though, as I was vaguely thinking when we were having this conversation
the other day, it seems the more lyrics the crapper the music.
Any opera that has the line "They fight because they fight, & because
they fight, they fight" in it needs throwing straight in the bin...
--
Chris Hedley
In article <9kn2ktv...@morticia.inmos.co.uk>,
ia...@galactic.co.uk (Iain A F Fleming) writes:
> Coming soon: ``the epistemological view of Lard''.
Cool, I can't wait! Not that I have any idea what epistemological means,
but hey, who cares?
Chris.