The Execution of Gary Glitter
MC
Not bad at all... Quite thought provoking.
I was all for the death penalty being introduced to this country until
I watched this but now I find myself on the fence. Not sure what what
the agenda of the makers of this program was but it certainly got me
thinking. I even I had a little sympathy for the Paul Gadd (aka Gary
Glitter) character towards the end. In fact the execution scene was
quite chilling.
Good acting by Hilton McRae as Gadd.
MC
the_niner_nation
"MC" <a...@any.any> wrote in message
news:xn0ghgkt...@bignews.usenetmonster.com...
+1 to that...I have to agree.
in black and white, the idea of executing paedophiles and child rapists etc
is quiet sound, but add in the emotive angle and it also made me think,
too...even a scumbag can add value to the greater good of humanity.
Capital punishment could be replaced by giving these scumbags to drug
companies, bio tech labs etc to test drugs and new molecues...almost forced
to give something back to humanity for greater good.
giving to drug companies/bio tech companies etc could also be served well by
afro carribean teenagers who have a compulsion to stab anyone they see, drug
dealers, chavs, violent piss heads on the streets of town centres etc. be a
great deterrent.
the drug companies could ' pay ' for these guinea pigs and the monies can be
given or distributed evenly to victims.
this would also negate the embarassment the british legal system faces when
it jails rapists for 3 months, , murderers for 6 months etc, burglaries
rewarded with trips to kenya etc.
Basil Jet
>
> this would also negate the embarassment the british legal system
> faces when it jails rapists for 3 months, , murderers for 6 months
> etc, burglaries rewarded with trips to kenya etc.
More than 100 rapists have been let off with a police caution, it was
revealed yesterday. The 111 cases included 66 incidents of child rape.
Read more:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1226530/100-rapists-let-caution-The-offences-come-court.html#ixzz0WPtN8AKN
--
We are the Strasbourg. Referendum is futile.
Mike Plowman
>Mmm...
>
>Not bad at all... Quite thought provoking.
The main thought it provoked in me that it was a cheap stunt and that
using someone who is still alive, has served their sentence for their
crime and is complying with the restrictions placed upon them was
distasteful.
I have no sympathy for Gadd at all but I think it was just cheap
sensationlaism to get some headlines, which largely failed. The drama
itself was predicatbly directed and ruined by one aspect of casting.
Who didn't, when the Home Secratary did her breast beating speech of
'We will catch you, we will try you and if you are found guilty, we
will put you to death!' answer 'Yes Mrs Patterson, thank you Mrs
Patterson'? :-)
>
>I was all for the death penalty being introduced to this country until
>I watched this but now I find myself on the fence.
I don't think it modified my thinking much. For sure, to actually
witness an execution is something most uf us, anti dp or pro, would
shy away from. Like producing our meat, we'd rather someone else did
it for us behind closed doors.
>Not sure what what
>the agenda of the makers of this program was but it certainly got me
>thinking. I even I had a little sympathy for the Paul Gadd (aka Gary
>Glitter) character towards the end. In fact the execution scene was
>quite chilling.
>
>Good acting by Hilton McRae as Gadd.
It was a great piece of acting, especially the final scenes
Commander Gideon
"MC" <a...@any.any> wrote in message
news:xn0ghgkt...@bignews.usenetmonster.com...
Missed it,what was the method of execution?
Frank Incense
I wonder if he ever gets mistaken for Gadd in real life.
Mike Plowman
He was forced to walk around in a pair of his old silver platform
boots till his feet killed him.
>
AC
"Commander Gideon" <i.d...@like.spam> wrote in message
news:hdbf0j$k7$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Forced viewing of the show.
AC
AC
"Basil Jet" <jo...@journeyflow.spamspam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:xx3Km.64047$MG6....@newsfe13.ams2...
No evidence, no case. Often they are lucky to put a caution on them, which
they have to accept. If they say no, and there is no evidence then they get
off scot free. This way there is at least a record. Also, with false
allegations being rife, or at least seen as rife, on one really know how
accurate these figures are.
But, well, Daily Mail.............
AC
Hugo Nebula
<a...@any.any>, randomly hit the keyboard and wrote:
>Not bad at all... Quite thought provoking.
>
>I was all for the death penalty being introduced to this country until
>I watched this but now I find myself on the fence. Not sure what what
>the agenda of the makers of this program was but it certainly got me
>thinking. I even I had a little sympathy for the Paul Gadd (aka Gary
>Glitter) character towards the end. In fact the execution scene was
>quite chilling.
Aww! I've recorded this, and now you've gone and told me the result!
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have I strayed"?
Basil Jet
> "Basil Jet" <jo...@journeyflow.spamspam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:xx3Km.64047$MG6....@newsfe13.ams2...
>>
>> revealed yesterday. The 111 cases included 66 incidents of child
>> rape. Read more:
>> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1226530/100-rapists-let-caution-The-offences->come-court.html#ixzz0WPtN8AKN
>
> No evidence, no case. Often they are lucky to put a caution on them,
> which they have to accept. If they say no, and there is no evidence
> then they get off scot free. This way there is at least a record.
> Also, with false allegations being rife, or at least seen as rife, on
> one really know how accurate these figures are.
>
> But, well, Daily Mail.............
No-one has to accept a caution.
Halmyre
I can't help wondering, what are the legal ramifications of a drama
like this? You're taking a real person and constructing a work of
fiction (yes, yes, I know...) around him. Can you imagine the outcry
if someone wrote a drama in which Tony Blair and is arrested and put
on trial for war crimes? In fact, I'd rather C4 had done that as a
drama than this shoddy effort.
--
Halmyre
Mike Plowman
<flashgord...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>I can't help wondering, what are the legal ramifications of a drama
>like this? You're taking a real person and constructing a work of
>fiction (yes, yes, I know...) around him.
C4 said he was informed of the film. You can't defend in any way what
he has done but as the law stands, surely he has served his sentence,
is complying with whatever restrictions are on him etc. The whole
premise made me very uncomfortable just by them using a real life
person to try and create some controversy.
Perhaps I'll knock up a screenplay where 'in an alternate universe'
Kate and Jerry Mcann are found to have killed Madeliene and are set
upon by an agry mob who hangs one of them and sets fire to the other
and see if C4 will comission that.
(To be fair, the fcat that it was a paralell universe was shown to be
true, In that one they still had a shop that sold blank casettes
somewhere!)
>Can you imagine the outcry
>if someone wrote a drama in which Tony Blair and is arrested and put
>on trial for war crimes? In fact, I'd rather C4 had done that as a
>drama than this shoddy effort.
Ditto.
michael adams
"Halmyre" <flashgord...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:67ab52aa-7ef4-4916...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> Can you imagine the outcry
> if someone wrote a drama in which Tony Blair and is arrested and put
> on trial for war crimes?
Zero. In 2007.
The run-up to his trail anyway. With Robert Lindsay playing TB
and Phoebe Snotty-Bossyboots Nicolls (sigh) totally miscast as
Cherie Chav-Booth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial_of_Tony_Blair
In that he fakes another heart problem to try and get out of it
but ends up being flown off to the Hague for his trial.
No execution scenes unfortunately.
michael adams
--
Halmyre
Dry Gulch Pete
Must cop a look, but would have enjoyed it more if it was The
Execution of Tony Blair!
Nick
michael adams
"Mike Plowman" <mike.p...@mydomain.net> wrote in message
news:mcjif5lrjbudhjqp5...@4ax.com...
> (To be fair, the fcat that it was a paralell universe was shown to be
> true, In that one they still had a shop that sold blank casettes
Assuming you mean VHS blanks.
Maybe depending on locality, but some Wilkinsons branches still stock
branded 180's in multipacks, which work out at �1 each.
Unlike the branded 240's you could get in poundshops for �1 each
until a while ago. Now - nowhere.
Avoid Costcutter as the reels are totally black unlike every other
blank I've ever seen. Which makes judging how much tape is left
when you're in too much of a hurry to rewind and reset the
counter totally impossible.
michael adams
...
michael adams
"MC" <a...@any.any> wrote in message news:xn0ghgkt...@bignews.usenetmonster.com...
> I was all for the death penalty being introduced to this country until
> I watched this but now I find myself on the fence.
That's interesting and shows the change in sensibilities in the last
say 200 years.
Public executions weren't ended in the UK because people were feeling
revulsion at the idea of executing people but precisely the opposite.
At many public executions - for many of which there was a black market
in tickets for the best vantage points, the public were showing themselves
to be far too enthsiastic and vengeful even. Shouting abuse at the prisoner
on the scaffold etc. So they were abandoned to spare the prisoners
feelings. The contrast with Saddam Hussein's execution, where one
person shouted some abuse and he was immediately shouted down -
"the man's about to die allow him some dignity" - something like
that - is striking.
Another reason was that a public execution could be used as last
public gesture or performance by the condemned. This was in the days
when death at the end of a rope was by strangulation and could take
sevearl minutes. By all accounts, rather than quaking with fear and begging
for mercy as the baying crowd hoped, some of the wickedest criminals
refused to co-operate, turning away the clerics, refusing to confess
their crimes, and meeting their end with the utmost calm.
michael adams
...
> MC
Jethro
> "MC" <a...@any.any> wrote in messagenews:xn0ghgkt...@bignews.usenetmonster.com...
ITYF they were abandoned because the public-order issues became
increasingly sensitive ... as towns became more populous the number of
people attending a high-profile execution could easily run into tens
of thousands. "Policing" such events (no police, just a local militia)
became more and more problematic, and there are several cases where
riots started, leading to deaths and general disorder. This presented
a dilemma for the authorities, who, on the whole, felt that seeing a
transgressor dangling on a rope was a real deterrent. There was no
concern for the convicts feelings ...
Mike Plowman
<mjad...@onetel.net.uk> wrote:
>
>"Mike Plowman" <mike.p...@mydomain.net> wrote in message
>news:mcjif5lrjbudhjqp5...@4ax.com...
>> (To be fair, the fcat that it was a paralell universe was shown to be
>> true, In that one they still had a shop that sold blank casettes
>
>Assuming you mean VHS blanks.
Nope, audio cassettes. The priest used one to record the fictional
Gadd's last statement before execution.
>
>
>Avoid Costcutter as the reels are totally black unlike every other
>blank I've ever seen. Which makes judging how much tape is left
>when you're in too much of a hurry to rewind and reset the
>counter totally impossible.
I haven't had a VHS player for about 6 years.
MC
I once visited a gaol in Australia which had a drop similar to that
dipicted in the program. The guard (ex guard as the prison was now
closed) told me that the condemned prisoner was given an old wooden
chair to sit on when positioned on the drop doors because the fear was
so intense that their legs would turn to jelly. When the leaver was
pulled the prisoner would drop along with the chair.
MC
Fred X
Or until the goldfish died.
Fred X
michael adams
"MC" <a...@any.any> wrote in message news:xn0ghhml...@bignews.usenetmonster.com...
Amateurs
Albert Peirrepoint always prided himself on the fact that the prisoner
would only be on the drop for a couple of seconds at most - his arms were
being pinioned as soon as Pierrepoint shook his hand in the condemened cell.
It was the the sight of the noose that unnerved most prisoners but then
Pierrepont and his assistant were so busy, the assistant pinioning his
legs, Pierrpoint fitting the hood and the noose - all new experiences to the
prisoner - that the prisoner hardly had time to comprehend his situation.
Pierrepoints biggest problem was always making sure he didn't go down
as well as he worked the lever backhand.
In the UK for the really hysterical prisoners there was provison for
planks to be placed across the drop and the condemned to be supported
by a screw on either side. In that case they'd already have been
fully pinioned in the condemned cell. Sometimes after having been
dragged out of the corner of the cell in a foetal position and
temporarily straightened out.
michael adams
...
>
michael adams
> On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:44:46 -0000, "michael adams"
> <mjad...@onetel.net.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Mike Plowman" <mike.p...@mydomain.net> wrote in message
> >news:mcjif5lrjbudhjqp5...@4ax.com...
> >> (To be fair, the fcat that it was a paralell universe was shown to be
> >> true, In that one they still had a shop that sold blank casettes
> >
> >Assuming you mean VHS blanks.
>
> Nope, audio cassettes. The priest used one to record the fictional
> Gadd's last statement before execution.
Ah right. Of course it would help if I actually watched the programmes
being discussed.
michael adams
...
Col
> On 09 Nov 2009 23:51:13 GMT, "MC" <a...@any.any> wrote:
>
>>Mmm...
>>
>>Not bad at all... Quite thought provoking.
>
> The main thought it provoked in me that it was a cheap stunt and that
> using someone who is still alive, has served their sentence for their
> crime and is complying with the restrictions placed upon them was
> distasteful.
>
Exactly the same sentiments I expressed when this first
came up a few weeks ago.
Whatever Glitter has done, he should be punished for his
crimes under the law and that should be that.
For this some idiot practically accused me of being a
paedo-lover.......
Col
Halmyre
reddw...@btinternet.com says...
A paedophilephile, in other words?
--
Halmyre
This is the most powerful sigfile in the world and will probably blow your
head clean off.
Halmyre
mike.p...@mydomain.net says...
> On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 03:15:58 -0800 (PST), Halmyre
> <flashgord...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >I can't help wondering, what are the legal ramifications of a drama
> >like this? You're taking a real person and constructing a work of
> >fiction (yes, yes, I know...) around him.
>
> C4 said he was informed of the film. You can't defend in any way what
> he has done but as the law stands, surely he has served his sentence,
> is complying with whatever restrictions are on him etc. The whole
> premise made me very uncomfortable just by them using a real life
> person to try and create some controversy.
>
I imagine that Glitter probably thought it would be best to keep his head
down. If he'd protested about the film the redtops would have had a field
day.
Col
"Halmyre" <no....@this.address> wrote in message
news:MPG.2563bdefb...@news.tesco.net...
> In article <OPudnUC6lZh_NmTX...@bt.com>,
> reddw...@btinternet.com says...
>>
>> "Mike Plowman" <mike.p...@mydomain.net> wrote in message
>> news:ti7if5lgi0hsknpt0...@4ax.com...
>> > On 09 Nov 2009 23:51:13 GMT, "MC" <a...@any.any> wrote:
>> >
>> >>Mmm...
>> >>
>> >>Not bad at all... Quite thought provoking.
>> >
>> > The main thought it provoked in me that it was a cheap stunt and that
>> > using someone who is still alive, has served their sentence for their
>> > crime and is complying with the restrictions placed upon them was
>> > distasteful.
>> >
>>
>> Exactly the same sentiments I expressed when this first
>> came up a few weeks ago.
>> Whatever Glitter has done, he should be punished for his
>> crimes under the law and that should be that.
>> For this some idiot practically accused me of being a
>> paedo-lover.......
>>
>
> A paedophilephile, in other words?
I guess so.
And he would have considered himself a paedophilephilephobe.
Col
Col
"Halmyre" <no....@this.address> wrote in message
> In article <mcjif5lrjbudhjqp5...@4ax.com>,
> mike.p...@mydomain.net says...
>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 03:15:58 -0800 (PST), Halmyre
>> <flashgord...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >I can't help wondering, what are the legal ramifications of a drama
>> >like this? You're taking a real person and constructing a work of
>> >fiction (yes, yes, I know...) around him.
>>
>> C4 said he was informed of the film. You can't defend in any way what
>> he has done but as the law stands, surely he has served his sentence,
>> is complying with whatever restrictions are on him etc. The whole
>> premise made me very uncomfortable just by them using a real life
>> person to try and create some controversy.
>>
>
> I imagine that Glitter probably thought it would be best to keep his head
> down. If he'd protested about the film the redtops would have had a field
> day.
But of course.
Glitter is a soft target, we know he won't kick up a fuss.
And C4 knew that too, so they knew they could get
away with it.
Col
allanbonnetracy
Whilst in many respects it was somewhat far fetched especially in the
inexplicable choice of Gary Glitter (who has only ever been found
guilty of sex offences at the milder end of the scale) as a likely
first victim.
However, it was not difficult to imagine a future BNP government going
down the road of paedo hysteria in this way.
Major difficulties in restoration of the death penalty, well here
goes: -
i) Declared opposition by the prisoner officers’’ union and Prison
Governors association both already having stated that they would never
cooperate.
ii) Similar refusal to cooperate by the BMA any doctor doing so would,
in fact, be struck off.
iii The obvious EU difficulties that would, in particular, almost
certainly mean an end to virtually any future extradition of UK
offenders from abroad, the complete collapse of the system.
iv) Finding a decent experienced hangman.
Personally, I find the thought of restoration of the death penalty to
be appalling and, for me at least, last night’s drama successfully
conveyed why it would be so.
Mind you, in many respects life imprisonment (when it means life) is a
pretty horrifying thought also.
In the US they have the rather quaint concept of a natural life
sentence spent entirely in isolation.
A small cell, no window, no nothing except maybe a book or a telly and
that’s it for the rest of their entire life.
Somehow, I find that to be far more barbaric than any death penalty.
Col
"allanbonnetracy" <allanbo...@ireland.com> wrote in message
news:361003cd-a93c-449a...@w19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>iii The obvious EU difficulties that would, in particular, almost
>certainly mean an end to virtually any future extradition of UK
>offenders from abroad, the complete collapse of the system.
Not so much that, I thought it was a stpulation of EU membership
that you couldn't have the Death Penalty.
If we re-introduced it, we'd have to leave.
Col
Col
"michael adams" <mjad...@onetel.net.uk> wrote in message
news:7lto6jF...@mid.individual.net...
I've just watched it on 4oD.
First time I've seen anything on Channel Four's equivalent to
iPlayer and it was laughable. The video was often blocky and
practically unwatchable at times. The whole thing had an very
'amateurish' feel about it, some of the graphics looked like they
had been produced on a ZX Spectrum.
iPlayer in comparison is streets ahead in looking slick & professional.
And at the practical end of what the feed looks like, immeasurably
better than the crap I've just seen.
Channel Four, you should be *deeply* ashamed by this.
Col
Skeats
"Col" <reddw...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:vKudnabt3Jl_RmTX...@bt.com...
Audio cassettes are still used for interviews by the police because it is
easier to check whether the tape has been tampered with than other forms of
recording.
Sky had a report on sales of the format rising in May 2009.
"Another sector still relying on blank tapes are the police. Lawyers don't
trust digital technology for interviews - so cassettes are still the
industry standard, all adding to sales."
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Technology/Sales-Of-Cassette-Tapes-On-The-Rise-TDK-The-Market-Leader-Says-Sales-Are-Holding-Up-Very-Well/Article/200905315282755
I didn't watch the programme though. I hate alternate realities.
Skeats
JNugent
> On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:44:46 -0000, "michael adams"
> <mjad...@onetel.net.uk> wrote:
>
>> "Mike Plowman" <mike.p...@mydomain.net> wrote in message
>> news:mcjif5lrjbudhjqp5...@4ax.com...
>>> (To be fair, the fcat that it was a paralell universe was shown to be
>>> true, In that one they still had a shop that sold blank casettes
>> Assuming you mean VHS blanks.
>
> Nope, audio cassettes. The priest used one to record the fictional
> Gadd's last statement before execution.
Dramatic effect. Many viwers would not recognise a digital dictation machine
had it been used. Making the point with a cassette spells it out better.
JNugent
> Whilst in many respects it was somewhat far fetched especially in the
> inexplicable choice of Gary Glitter (who has only ever been found
> guilty of sex offences at the milder end of the scale) as a likely
> first victim.
> However, it was not difficult to imagine a future BNP government going
> down the road of paedo hysteria in this way.
> Major difficulties in restoration of the death penalty, well here
> goes: -
> i) Declared opposition by the prisoner officers�� union and Prison
> Governors association both already having stated that they would never
> cooperate.
I remember when people used to reckon that unions would never co-operate with
all sorts of things, including efficiency drives and privatisations. Things
change. They did (and continue to) co-operate... most of them.
> ii) Similar refusal to cooperate by the BMA any doctor doing so would,
> in fact, be struck off.
For what?
> iii The obvious EU difficulties that would, in particular, almost
> certainly mean an end to virtually any future extradition of UK
> offenders from abroad, the complete collapse of the system.
Not necessarily a bad thing (for the UK).
> iv) Finding a decent experienced hangman.
That shouldn't be as bad as it sounds. In any case, a different method of
execution could be used in really necessary (the firing squad wouldn't need
any unobtainable skills).
> Personally, I find the thought of restoration of the death penalty to
> be appalling and, for me at least, last night�s drama successfully
> conveyed why it would be so.
Well, no-one sensible says it should be restored for pornography offences, or
even for rape.
> Mind you, in many respects life imprisonment (when it means life) is a
> pretty horrifying thought also.
It shouldn't be. Only a few lifers ever serve it.
> In the US they have the rather quaint concept of a natural life
> sentence spent entirely in isolation.
> A small cell, no window, no nothing except maybe a book or a telly and
> that�s it for the rest of their entire life.
> Somehow, I find that to be far more barbaric than any death penalty.
Actually, it's more or less what UK condemned prisoners used to get - for a
few weeks.
But it's not as bad as you make it sound, especially when you consider the
alternative...
JNugent
> "allanbonnetracy" <allanbo...@ireland.com> wrote in message
> news:361003cd-a93c-449a...@w19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>> iii The obvious EU difficulties that would, in particular, almost
>> certainly mean an end to virtually any future extradition of UK
>> offenders from abroad, the complete collapse of the system.
>
> Not so much that, I thought it was a stpulation of EU membership
> that you couldn't have the Death Penalty.
I don't think so. It's a treaty obligatiopn under the ECHR (which is nothing
to do with the EU - that was an inaccuracy th film resported to).
> If we re-introduced it, we'd have to leave.
You're making it sound more attractive by the moment for its most vociferous
supporters.
JNugent
Hear hear.
I was interrupted every few minutes in the timeslot 20:00 - 21:00. I went
away to watch "Collision" and came back to it around 23:00. It flowed better
then. But why not let the viewer download a temp copy in non-real time (as
with iPlayer)?
Col
"JNugent" <J...@noparticularplacetogo.com> wrote in message
news:guOdndowUN_mkGfX...@pipex.net...
> Col wrote:
>> "allanbonnetracy" <allanbo...@ireland.com> wrote in message
>> news:361003cd-a93c-449a...@w19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>> iii The obvious EU difficulties that would, in particular, almost
>>> certainly mean an end to virtually any future extradition of UK
>>> offenders from abroad, the complete collapse of the system.
>>
>> Not so much that, I thought it was a stpulation of EU membership
>> that you couldn't have the Death Penalty.
>
> I don't think so. It's a treaty obligatiopn under the ECHR (which is
> nothing to do with the EU - that was an inaccuracy th film resported to).
http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/news/information_dossiers/conference_death_penalty/page_2_en.htm
"Abolition of the death penalty is a requirement for countries seeking EU
membership."
Col
Mike Plowman
<mjad...@onetel.net.uk> wrote:
>
>"Mike Plowman" <mike.p...@mydomain.net> wrote in message
>news:u81jf55kntlh9v32l...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:44:46 -0000, "michael adams"
>> <mjad...@onetel.net.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Mike Plowman" <mike.p...@mydomain.net> wrote in message
>> >news:mcjif5lrjbudhjqp5...@4ax.com...
>> >> (To be fair, the fcat that it was a paralell universe was shown to be
>> >> true, In that one they still had a shop that sold blank casettes
>> >
>> >Assuming you mean VHS blanks.
>>
>> Nope, audio cassettes. The priest used one to record the fictional
>> Gadd's last statement before execution.
>
>
>Ah right. Of course it would help if I actually watched the programmes
>being discussed.
>
Nah, I've never found that necessary for spouting off in here. :-)
Mike Plowman
<J...@noparticularplacetogo.com> wrote:
>
>Hear hear.
>
>I was interrupted every few minutes in the timeslot 20:00 - 21:00. I went
>away to watch "Collision" and came back to it around 23:00. It flowed better
>then. But why not let the viewer download a temp copy in non-real time (as
>with iPlayer)?
I think that may have had something to do with the fact that seeimgly
everyone in the world was playing Modern Warfare 2 online last night.
God knows how many played online last nigt but I was ranked somewhere
around 840,000 at 9pm last nigt. Amazingly, one of my mates is already
in the 27,000s after playing non stop all day. Mental.
Mike Plowman
<allanbo...@ireland.com> wrote:
>
>Whilst in many respects it was somewhat far fetched especially in the
>inexplicable choice of Gary Glitter (who has only ever been found
>guilty of sex offences at the milder end of the scale) as a likely
>first victim.
Was he? See, this so called piece of fiction left me confused. I
doin't recall reading that Grade 5 images and videos were found at
his house in Vietnam but in the show it was said it was.
>However, it was not difficult to imagine a future BNP government going
>down the road of paedo hysteria in this way.
>
>Major difficulties in restoration of the death penalty, well here
>goes: -
>
>i) Declared opposition by the prisoner officers�� union and Prison
>Governors association both already having stated that they would never
>cooperate.
Wouldn't matter. A 3rd party company would step in and fill the gap,
as they have done in the prison service.
>
>A small cell, no window, no nothing except maybe a book or a telly and
>that�s it for the rest of their entire life.
>
>Somehow, I find that to be far more barbaric than any death penalty.
And for really bad crimes, they only channel they can get is ITV2! :-)
Ian F.
> I think that may have had something to do with the fact that seeimgly
> everyone in the world was playing Modern Warfare 2 online last night.
Everyone in the world? Just the kiddies, surely? ;-)
Ian
Mike Plowman
I think you'll find that the average age of people playing video games
is a lot older than school age
From USA Today
"Contrary to a popular stereotype, the average video game player is
not a teenage skateboarder but a more mature fun-seeker old enough to
be his dad, according to a survey released Wednesday.
In fact, the average age of game players was 29 and the average age of
buyers was 36, with men making up 59% of the playing audience."
The handful of guys I chatted to yesterday when getting a copy were
all buying for themselves, not their kids.
Come on, get with the beat Ian. Get yourself an Xbox and we'll see if
we can arrange a young person to show you how it works. :-)
Jethro
> allanbonnetracy wrote:
> > Whilst in many respects it was somewhat far fetched especially in the
> > inexplicable choice of Gary Glitter (who has only ever been found
> > guilty of sex offences at the milder end of the scale) as a likely
> > first victim.
> > However, it was not difficult to imagine a future BNP government going
> > down the road of paedo hysteria in this way.
> > Major difficulties in restoration of the death penalty, well here
> > goes: -
> > Governors association both already having stated that they would never
> > cooperate.
>
> I remember when people used to reckon that unions would never co-operate with
> all sorts of things, including efficiency drives and privatisations. Things
> change. They did (and continue to) co-operate... most of them.
>
> > ii) Similar refusal to cooperate by the BMA any doctor doing so would,
> > in fact, be struck off.
>
> For what?
For a hanging to be as efficient as possible, the hangman needs to
know the state of the prisoners neck. Which entails an expert medical
assesment. (Read Pierrepoints memoirs for more details). Get it wrong
and you'll either decapitate the prisoner, or worse, have him
strangling to death over 20,25 minutes, which would be horrific for
the witnesses. Any Doctor that provided such medical assesment would
be struck off.
>
> > iii The obvious EU difficulties that would, in particular, almost
> > certainly mean an end to virtually any future extradition of UK
> > offenders from abroad, the complete collapse of the system.
>
> Not necessarily a bad thing (for the UK).
>
> > iv) Finding a decent experienced hangman.
>
> That shouldn't be as bad as it sounds. In any case, a different method of
> execution could be used in really necessary (the firing squad wouldn't need
> any unobtainable skills).
AFAIAA the Royal commission of the 1950s recommendations will still
stand as the definitive authority of all things to do with capital
punishment in the UK. They unequivocally stated that the only humane
and acceptable way of executing a man was hanging. And they looked at
*all* the methods, including the US ones, available round the world.
>
> > Personally, I find the thought of restoration of the death penalty to
> > be appalling and, for me at least, last night’s drama successfully
> > conveyed why it would be so.
>
> Well, no-one sensible says it should be restored for pornography offences, or
> even for rape.
no one sensible says RIPA should be used to catch bin-crims ...
>
> > Mind you, in many respects life imprisonment (when it means life) is a
> > pretty horrifying thought also.
>
> It shouldn't be. Only a few lifers ever serve it.
>
> > In the US they have the rather quaint concept of a natural life
> > sentence spent entirely in isolation.
> > A small cell, no window, no nothing except maybe a book or a telly and
> > that’s it for the rest of their entire life.
JNugent
> http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/news/information_dossiers/conference_death_penalty/page_2_en.htm
More precisely:
"Abolition of the death penalty is a requirement for countries seeking EU
membership. All EU Member States have acceded to Protocol 6 to the European
Convention on Human Rights, which prohibits recourse to the death penalty at
peacetime".
We are arguably at war. On several fronts.
JNugent
> JNugent <J...@noparticularplacetogo.com> wrote:
>> allanbonnetracy wrote:
>>> Whilst in many respects it was somewhat far fetched especially in the
>>> inexplicable choice of Gary Glitter (who has only ever been found
>>> guilty of sex offences at the milder end of the scale) as a likely
>>> first victim.
>>> However, it was not difficult to imagine a future BNP government going
>>> down the road of paedo hysteria in this way.
>>> Major difficulties in restoration of the death penalty, well here
>>> goes: -
>>> i) Declared opposition by the prisoner officers�� union and Prison
>>> Governors association both already having stated that they would never
>>> cooperate.
>> I remember when people used to reckon that unions would never co-operate with
>> all sorts of things, including efficiency drives and privatisations. Things
>> change. They did (and continue to) co-operate... most of them.
>>> ii) Similar refusal to cooperate by the BMA any doctor doing so would,
>>> in fact, be struck off.
>> For what?
> For a hanging to be as efficient as possible, the hangman needs to
> know the state of the prisoners neck. Which entails an expert medical
> assesment. (Read Pierrepoints memoirs for more details). Get it wrong
> and you'll either decapitate the prisoner, or worse, have him
> strangling to death over 20,25 minutes, which would be horrific for
> the witnesses. Any Doctor that provided such medical assesment would
> be struck off.
You've simply repeated your assertion with more detail.
What I was curious about - and still haven't heard about - was how and why
you say this would happen. It certainly never used to happen before 1966.
What has changed?
Or is this one of those things everybody just knows (or ought to know)?
>>> iii The obvious EU difficulties that would, in particular, almost
>>> certainly mean an end to virtually any future extradition of UK
>>> offenders from abroad, the complete collapse of the system.
>> Not necessarily a bad thing (for the UK).
>>> iv) Finding a decent experienced hangman.
>> That shouldn't be as bad as it sounds. In any case, a different method of
>> execution could be used in really necessary (the firing squad wouldn't need
>> any unobtainable skills).
> AFAIAA the Royal commission of the 1950s recommendations will still
> stand as the definitive authority of all things to do with capital
> punishment in the UK. They unequivocally stated that the only humane
> and acceptable way of executing a man was hanging. And they looked at
> *all* the methods, including the US ones, available round the world.
That was then. This is now.
Col
Right.
So you would agree that abolition of the Death Penallty is a condition
of membership, and it's reintroduction would nessecitate our leaving?
> We are arguably at war. On several fronts.
Do you think that the Death Penalty would help in these 'wars'?
Col
Col
> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 01:05:38 +0000, JNugent
> <J...@noparticularplacetogo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Hear hear.
>>
>>I was interrupted every few minutes in the timeslot 20:00 - 21:00. I went
>>away to watch "Collision" and came back to it around 23:00. It flowed
>>better
>>then. But why not let the viewer download a temp copy in non-real time (as
>>with iPlayer)?
>
> I think that may have had something to do with the fact that seeimgly
> everyone in the world was playing Modern Warfare 2 online last night.
So the whole internet slows down just because of some stupid
computer game? FFS.
If so I may have done 4oD something of a dis-service, assuming
the quality of the video stream isn't normally as poor as that.
The site still looks crap though.
Col
pete
> Jethro wrote:
>
>> JNugent <J...@noparticularplacetogo.com> wrote:
>>> allanbonnetracy wrote:
>
>>>> Whilst in many respects it was somewhat far fetched especially in the
>>>> inexplicable choice of Gary Glitter (who has only ever been found
>>>> guilty of sex offences at the milder end of the scale) as a likely
>>>> first victim.
>>>> However, it was not difficult to imagine a future BNP government going
>>>> down the road of paedo hysteria in this way.
>>>> Major difficulties in restoration of the death penalty, well here
>>>> goes: -
>>>> Governors association both already having stated that they would never
>>>> cooperate.
>
>>> I remember when people used to reckon that unions would never co-operate with
>>> all sorts of things, including efficiency drives and privatisations. Things
>>> change. They did (and continue to) co-operate... most of them.
>
>>>> ii) Similar refusal to cooperate by the BMA any doctor doing so would,
>>>> in fact, be struck off.
>
>>> For what?
>
>> For a hanging to be as efficient as possible, the hangman needs to
>> know the state of the prisoners neck. Which entails an expert medical
>> assesment. (Read Pierrepoints memoirs for more details). Get it wrong
>> and you'll either decapitate the prisoner, or worse, have him
>> strangling to death over 20,25 minutes, which would be horrific for
>> the witnesses. Any Doctor that provided such medical assesment would
>> be struck off.
>
> You've simply repeated your assertion with more detail.
>
> What I was curious about - and still haven't heard about - was how and why
> you say this would happen. It certainly never used to happen before 1966.
> What has changed?
>
> Or is this one of those things everybody just knows (or ought to know)?
There was a programme on BBCn last year - or the year before with a title
something like: "How to kill a human being", which was about the various
forms of execution that are/had-been employed in different places. On the
subject of hanging, they asserted that there were tables used which related
the weight of the customer to the height of the drop. Too small a drop and
the result was slow strangulation. Too high and the head came off. For some
reason this was considered undesirable - though I doubt if the prisoner
objected.
Apparently different countries had different weight/drop tables, some of
which were more prone to decapitating the prisoner than others.
Mike Plowman
wrote:
I was joking Col. There's no huge bandwidth used by XBoxes pinging
each other. It uses less thatn 70k even when using voice chat.
Col
"pete" <no-...@unknown.com> wrote in message
news:slrnhfm2j3...@corv.local...
>
> There was a programme on BBCn last year - or the year before with a title
> something like: "How to kill a human being", which was about the various
> forms of execution that are/had-been employed in different places. On the
> subject of hanging, they asserted that there were tables used which
> related
> the weight of the customer to the height of the drop. Too small a drop and
> the result was slow strangulation. Too high and the head came off. For
> some
> reason this was considered undesirable - though I doubt if the prisoner
> objected.
> Apparently different countries had different weight/drop tables, some of
> which were more prone to decapitating the prisoner than others.
Was this the programme with Michael Portillo?
It was a fascinating though of course somewhat grisly watch.
I think the objective of the programme was to find the 'best'
way to kill somebody, with the intention that if you are going
to have the Death Penalty it should be as quick, efficient,
painless and not prone to cock-ups as it reasonably can be.
I always thought, what's wrong with a good old fashioned
firing squad, I mean you can hardly miss...
But even here I think there were issues meaning it wasn't
as straightforward as you might think, but I don't recall the details.
Col
Col
>>
> I was joking Col. There's no huge bandwidth used by XBoxes pinging
> each other. It uses less thatn 70k even when using voice chat.
Ah, OK.
I have no idea how these things work, it's a world that is
completely alien to me.....
Looks like 4oD is totally shite after all :)
Col
michael adams
Traditional firing squads can be messy hence the need sometimes for
the traditional coup de-grace administered by the stiff-upper
lip officer.
The best firing squad IMO would be pre-aimed rifles on tripods
positioned behind an opaque sheet of paper positioned about
four feet in front of the prisoner. The paper could have
a picture of relatives, a pin-up, scenery, fluffy animals or
any other picture of the prisoners choice printed on it.
Or if the surprise element is preferred, get the prisoner to
turn around on some pretext "Over here" and shoot him in the
base of the skull with a pistol at point blank range. Just
make sure you're wearing suitable clothes.
For sheer grisliness though you can't really beat
the garotte. Still used in Spain until 1974
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrote
michael adams
Calum
> Avoid Costcutter as the reels are totally black unlike every other
> blank I've ever seen. Which makes judging how much tape is left
> when you're in too much of a hurry to rewind and reset the
> counter totally impossible.
Every VHS player I've had in the past ten years has been able to tell
you how much tape is left...
Calum
> "Contrary to a popular stereotype, the average video game player is
> not a teenage skateboarder but a more mature fun-seeker old enough to
> be his dad, according to a survey released Wednesday.
>
> In fact, the average age of game players was 29 and the average age of
> buyers was 36, with men making up 59% of the playing audience."
Which begs the question, who are all these 36-year-old men buying games
for 29-year-old men? :)
michael adams
From memory the official UK drop table was compiled by the Home Office around
1890 and was used in the UK and throughout the Empire as was. And maybe still is
in Commonwealth Countries in the Carribean which still retain the death penalty.
All of which have been judged unconstitutional by the UK Privy Council who will
no longer hear appeals as they did up until fairly recently.
The USA always had their own ideas about hanging. Even as late as the Nuremberg
executions where US Army Hangmen were used ( in addition to Pierrepoint and others)
there were claims that prisoners were dying of slow strangulation which is why
Goering committed suicide.
In China they had form of hanging by slow strangulation inside a box where
the prisoners toes were only inches from the ground.
Pierrepoint always insisted on seeing the prisoner on the evening before the
execution through the spyhole in the cell door so he could adjust the drop to take
account of the prisoners general physique and the shape of his neck. The drop
tables only covered the prisoners weight and height.
michael adams
...
CP
> "Col" <reddwar...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
The most merciless way of all would be to bore them to death with a
pile of your posts.
;-)
michael adams
"Calum" <com....@scottishwildcat.nospam> wrote in message
news:hdf564$f6o$1...@reader01.news.esat.net...
Both my Tesco Bush VCR's one a 6 head machine automatically reset the
counter to zero immediately you change a tape. Regardless of how much
is left. Which is annoying for all sorts of reasons. Unless there's
something in the set-up menus that I missed, but usually its the bells
and whistles features that are the default setting.
My much older Sharp machine has the feature that you mention but I mainly
use it for playing rather than for recording.
michael adams
...
michael adams
"CP" <colinpa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9acfe653-39e4-464a...@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
- The most merciless way of all would be to bore them to death with a
- pile of your posts.
- ;-)
...
They'd have a long wait then.
Of late I've only posted on two main topics, Stephen Fry and various
methods of execution.
You never know, one day I might get lucky, and hit the jackpot.
michael adams
...
michael adams
news:hdf564$f6o$1...@reader01.news.esat.net...
> michael adams wrote:
>
> > Avoid Costcutter as the reels are totally black unlike every other
> > blank I've ever seen. Which makes judging how much tape is left
> > when you're in too much of a hurry to rewind and reset the
> > counter totally impossible.
>
> Every VHS player I've had in the past ten years has been able to tell
> you how much tape is left...
Both my Tesco Bush VCR's one a 6 head machine automatically reset the
counter to zero immediately you change a tape. Regardless of how much
is left. Which is annoying for all sorts of reasons. Unless there's
something in the set-up menus that I missed, but usually its the bells
and whistles features that are the default setting.
Having just looked at the manual - in order to display the amount
of time left on a freshly inserted cassette
Choose Menu
Choose Tape Control
Choose Tape Remain
Choose Length of Tape
Which is a lot more fiddling about than simply reading the number off
of the cassette reel with the remaining tape outlined against a white
background for an approximate figure whenever you're in a hurry.
pete
>
> From memory the official UK drop table was compiled by the Home Office around
> 1890
Bloody hell. How old are you?
michael adams
"pete" <no-...@unknown.com> wrote in message news:slrnhfme6s...@corv.local...
What I meant was I remember reading about it rather than checking
immediately before posting. In case I'd got it wrong.
As it happens -
"A proper table of drops for hangmen to use was issued by the Home
Office in 1892 "
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/hanging2.html
This sort of stuff seems to stick in my memory for some reason.
michael adams
...
Jeff Lawrence
news:7m0qd2F...@mid.individual.net...
> Of late I've only posted on two main topics, Stephen Fry and various
> methods of execution.
>
> You never know, one day I might get lucky, and hit the jackpot.
Why not combine the two topics?
Cheers
Jeff
Jeff Lawrence
The 29 year-olds don't have enough time to buy the games. They're too busy
playing them.
Cheers
Jeff
Jeff Lawrence
news:bifmf5p74o827bu82...@4ax.com...
> Yes. It was an episode of "Horizon" called "How to Kill a Human Being",
> Jan 2008.
A very useful programme actually. Finally I was able to get rid of my
mother-in-law!
Cheers
Jeff
Mike Plowman
Halmyre
> "Mike Henry" <{$mrtickl...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:bifmf5p74o827bu82...@4ax.com...
>
> > Yes. It was an episode of "Horizon" called "How to Kill a Human Being",
> > Jan 2008.
>
> A very useful programme actually. Finally I was able to get rid of my
> mother-in-law!
Whoa! Wheeltappers and Shunters flashback! Flat caps! Whippets! Pints
of bitter! Order! T'committee! Raffle!
--
Halmyre
Ian F.
news:e127aaeb-62c1-4e75...@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
> Whoa! Wheeltappers and Shunters flashback! Flat caps! Whippets! Pints
> of bitter! Order! T'committee! Raffle!
We 'ad a meeting of the committee...and we passed a resolooooshun...
Ian
(getting ready to go to Harrogate this weekend!)
Jeff Lawrence
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:10:27 +0100, "Jeff Lawrence"
>
> >"Mike Henry" <{$mrtickl...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:bifmf5p74o827bu82...@4ax.com...
>
> >> Yes. It was an episode of "Horizon" called "How to Kill a Human Being",
> >> Jan 2008.
>
> >A very useful programme actually. Finally I was able to get rid of my
> >mother-in-law!
> >Cheers
> >Jeff
>
The 1st mother-in-law I should add. The current one lives 10000 miles
away so I can put up with her no problem.
Cheers
Jeff
Jeff Lawrence
> (getting ready to go to Harrogate this weekend!)
A very nice place. Betty's Tearoom is a must!
Cheers
Jeff
Mike Plowman
LOL, tha'll find non o' that in 'Arrogate lad. Reet gentile it is up
there now. A've heard that some folk even 'have indoor kludgies.
Tha'll find tha'sen reet at 'ome.
Jeff Lawrence
> >A very nice place. Betty's Tearoom is a must!
>
> If you like Swiss owned tea rooms :o)
Well Switzerland does produce the best tea in the world of course.
Cheers
Jeff
Francis Burton
michael adams <mjad...@onetel.net.uk> wrote:
>For sheer grisliness though you can't really beat
>the garotte. Still used in Spain until 1974
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrote
I believe La Garrocha is still being practiced in some parts of
Spain even today - more elegant, but a very slow painful death
unless the pole is positioned just so.
Francis
JNugent
> "JNugent" <J...@noparticularplacetogo.com> wrote in message
> news:Q9CdnczjS_QwdGfX...@pipex.net...
>> Col wrote:
>>> "JNugent" <J...@noparticularplacetogo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:guOdndowUN_mkGfX...@pipex.net...
>>>> Col wrote:
>>>>> "allanbonnetracy" <allanbo...@ireland.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:361003cd-a93c-449a...@w19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> iii The obvious EU difficulties that would, in particular, almost
>>>>>> certainly mean an end to virtually any future extradition of UK
>>>>>> offenders from abroad, the complete collapse of the system.
>>>>> Not so much that, I thought it was a stpulation of EU membership
>>>>> that you couldn't have the Death Penalty.
>>>> I don't think so. It's a treaty obligatiopn under the ECHR (which is
>>>> nothing to do with the EU - that was an inaccuracy th film resported
>>>> to).
>>> http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/news/information_dossiers/conference_death_penalty/page_2_en.htm
>>> "Abolition of the death penalty is a requirement for countries seeking EU
>>> membership."
>> More precisely:
>>
>> "Abolition of the death penalty is a requirement for countries seeking EU
>> membership. All EU Member States have acceded to Protocol 6 to the
>> European Convention on Human Rights, which prohibits recourse to the death
>> penalty at peacetime".
> Right.
Read it again: "Abolition of the death penalty is a requirement for countries
*seeking EU membership*...".
Abolition of the death penalty might be a condition which the EU now places
as a condition for aspiring new entrants, but it wasn't in the past and did
not prevent the UK's joining in 1973 (when we still had the penalty for
certin esoteric offences including treasoin and arson in Her Majesty's
dockyards). The UK's early 1960s application for Common Market membership was
not vetoed by the guillotine-wielding French because of the then-recent
execution of James Hanratty, for instance.
The reason why the UK got rid of the death penalty was that Parliament
abolished it during the 1960s. That's it. Nothing else. There was no treaty
obligation, though the UK's far more setting of the ECHR in stone (by way of
the Human Rights Act) does present an obstacle, though not an insurmountable
one, to the restotration of adequate punishment for the ultimate unacceptable
crime.
> So you would agree that abolition of the Death Penallty is a condition
> of membership, and it's reintroduction would nessecitate our leaving?
(a) No. We joined when we still had the death penalty as an available
punishment. That's a fact.
(b) No. Not unless there is some specific rule to that effect. Do you know of
one?
>> We are arguably at war. On several fronts.
> Do you think that the Death Penalty would help in these 'wars'?
That's a separate issue. The issue here is that the ECHR does not demand that
the death penalty is not used in time of war. So it is not absolute in any case.
JNugent
> something like: "How to kill a human being", which was about the various
> forms of execution that are/had-been employed in different places. On the
> subject of hanging, they asserted that there were tables used which related
> the weight of the customer to the height of the drop. Too small a drop and
> the result was slow strangulation. Too high and the head came off. For some
> reason this was considered undesirable - though I doubt if the prisoner
> objected.
> Apparently different countries had different weight/drop tables, some of
> which were more prone to decapitating the prisoner than others.
I didn't see the programme, but I was aware of those issues.
JNugent
> JNugent <J...@noparticularplacetogo.com> wrote:
>> Col wrote:
>>> "JNugent" <J...@noparticularplacetogo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:Q9CdnczjS_QwdGfX...@pipex.net...
>>>> Col wrote:
>>>>> "JNugent" <J...@noparticularplacetogo.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:guOdndowUN_mkGfX...@pipex.net...
>>>>>> Col wrote:
>>>>>>> "allanbonnetracy" <allanbo...@ireland.com> wrote:
>>> Right.
> certain esoteric offences including treasoin and arson in Her Majesty's
> dockyards).
> Did you mean "partly abolished" or did you get the dates wrong?
You're right: "partly abolished" or "abolished for murder" would have been
more accurate.
It was only the more vulnerable victims of homicide who were abandoned by
Parliament during the 1960s. Homicide (or attempted homicide) of the monarch
was still a hanging offence, as was atempted destruction of some defence
establishments.
Col
> Col wrote:
>> Right.
>
> Read it again: "Abolition of the death penalty is a requirement for
> countries *seeking EU membership*...".
Yup, I know what it says.
> Abolition of the death penalty might be a condition which the EU now
> places as a condition for aspiring new entrants, but it wasn't in the past
> and did not prevent the UK's joining in 1973 (when we still had the
> penalty for certin esoteric offences including treasoin and arson in Her
> Majesty's dockyards). The UK's early 1960s application for Common Market
> membership was not vetoed by the guillotine-wielding French because of the
> then-recent execution of James Hanratty, for instance.
The fact that we got in with the Death Penalty is completely irrelevant.
So what, what happened way back then has no bearing on what happens
today. So are you really saying that a country could abolish the Death
Penalty to get in, then re-introduce it as soon as they gained full
membership? That would be insane, but that is what you seem to be implying.
> The reason why the UK got rid of the death penalty was that Parliament
> abolished it during the 1960s. That's it. Nothing else. There was no
> treaty obligation, though the UK's far more setting of the ECHR in stone
> (by way of the Human Rights Act) does present an obstacle, though not an
> insurmountable one, to the restotration of adequate punishment for the
> ultimate unacceptable crime.
>
> > So you would agree that abolition of the Death Penallty is a condition
> > of membership, and it's reintroduction would nessecitate our leaving?
>
> (a) No. We joined when we still had the death penalty as an available
> punishment. That's a fact.
It is, but it's an irrelevant fact as I have already discussed.
> (b) No. Not unless there is some specific rule to that effect. Do you know
> of one?
Perhaps not a specific 'rule' as such but as all EU states have signed
the ECHR which prohibits the Death Penalty, any such move to
renege on that committement would make their position as a member
of the EU untenable.
>>> We are arguably at war. On several fronts.
>
>> Do you think that the Death Penalty would help in these 'wars'?
>
> That's a separate issue. The issue here is that the ECHR does not demand
> that the death penalty is not used in time of war. So it is not absolute
> in any case.
Indeed not.
Never claimed that it did.
Col