Repost of discussion thread for 7X10 (S7 Spoilers)
David Chapman
the title of this episode may constitute a spoiler, so please
do not mention it elsewhere.
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THINGS TO LIKE
"I'm afraid we have a slight ... apocalypse."
The Return of Giles.
THINGS TO DISLIKE
Marti Noxon, who SFAICR hasn't written anything to justify
her pay cheque since The Wish and who in each of the last five
seasons has contributed one of what were generally considered to
be the worst two episodes - not to mention the worst ever
episodes of both Buffy and Angel [1]. Thank God Doug Petrie
co-wrote this episode, is all I can say.
Annabelle running away from a safe bastion to certain death,
despite having previously been the most level-headed of the
potentials *and* the one telling everyone to sit tight. Molly
mght have run because she was scared; Kennedy might have
gone out from overconfidence, but for Annabelle to run was
completely unbelievable. No, this was blatantly done for no
reason other than to set up Buffy's fight with the ubervamp in
the iron works. Which brings me neatly to...
Buffy's fight with the ubervamp in the iron works. Now let me
think, where else have we seen a limping woman pursued by a
deadly killer through a factory? I'll give you a clue - in the same
James Cameron movie from which this fight not only directly
lifted two sequences (the shouldering aside of crushing metal
and the beating sequence) but even had the *fucking* temerity
to lift the *score* as well at one crucial point. Oh, and can
someone give me a convincing explanation as to why the
ubervamp doesn't run after Buffy when she's limping to get a
weapon but is perfectly capable of running and jumping later
in the fight? Don't bother trying, BTW - that question was
rhetorical. It's to match the pace of the scene to the original.
Buffy's "stirring speech", which SFAICT boils down to "We
can't fight this thing, we can't beat it, so we're going to fight it
and beat it." Ridiculous bombastic gibberish.
Despite telling Buffy everything else that happens, we don't
get a resolution on the axe attack thing. I know there are
reasons for this, but it's offpissing all the same.
Drusilla. As if Molly's accent wasn't irritating enough...
THINGS TO SPECULATE ON
Is that the First infiltrating Buffy's dreams as Joyce, or is it
something else? Could there be a First Good to balance the
First Evil?
Where is Wood going with that shovel - to uncover the
Seal of Danzathar again? And exactly what is his stake in
this? He's acting very shiftily in this ep, with his "I like
mysteries <smirks behind Buffy's back>" and seeming
acceptance of Buffy and Dawn's lame excuses. I find it
impossible to believe that he's just a hypnotised bystander;
I just don't know which side he's really on.
SFAICT, Giles doesn't interact physically with anything or
anybody in the course of this episode. Could he actually be
the First?
Note that if Faith and the remaining potentials die in the
course of this series, we'll be perfectly set up for Fray.
MISCELLANEOUS TRIVIA
Buffy needs a better search engine; she only got 900,517
hits for "evil" on hers, whereas Google gives 10,600,000.
RATING FOR NIALL: 1.5
[1] Bad Eggs and She, respectively.
--
At the tone, please leave your name, telephone number, warranty
information, and the reason you should never have bought a computer
in the first place, you friggin' moron!
John L
"David Chapman" <nos...@nospam.gro> wrote in message news:3e7a5544$0$29598$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...
> think, where else have we seen a limping woman pursued by a
> deadly killer through a factory? I'll give you a clue - in the same
> James Cameron movie from which this fight not only directly
> lifted two sequences (the shouldering aside of crushing metal
> and the beating sequence) but even had the *fucking* temerity
> to lift the *score* as well at one crucial point. Oh, and can
> someone give me a convincing explanation as to why the
> ubervamp doesn't run after Buffy when she's limping to get a
> weapon but is perfectly capable of running and jumping later
> in the fight? Don't bother trying, BTW - that question was
> rhetorical. It's to match the pace of the scene to the original.
Which fight? Which film?
Some of us don't get out much, you see.
Also, why does Buffy give up when the stake does not work?
We have seen this before with ancient vamps: Kissing Toast in
s3x03 Faith, Hope And Trick. Faith uses a small forest to kill
Kakistos.
>
> Buffy's "stirring speech", which SFAICT boils down to "We
> can't fight this thing, we can't beat it, so we're going to fight it
> and beat it." Ridiculous bombastic gibberish.
Out of character too. Buffy is not known for her oratory.
Recall "not exactly the St Crispin's Day speech"? Or am
I just remembering that line and in fact Buffy is known for
motivational speeches? No.
>
> Drusilla. As if Molly's accent wasn't irritating enough...
Gawd bless yer, Mary Poppins.
>
>
> THINGS TO SPECULATE ON
>
> Is that the First infiltrating Buffy's dreams as Joyce, or is it
> something else? Could there be a First Good to balance the
> First Evil?
Well, it seems to have made Buffy afraid to go to sleep so
she will be too tired to fight effectively. And since we are
told TFE cannot touch anything, what precisely was Dawn
fighting in CWDP?
You ask about the First Good. I have been wondering
on-and-off since s4x22 Restless whether, just as some
(not mainstream) christians believe the devil was a fallen
angel, perhaps the first slayer was a "fallen" demon. This
would fit in with Spike's ramblings about the slayer being
a creature of the night. Is ME echoing, perhaps unconsciously,
some simplistic theology? And Buffy's s5x18 Intervention
trip to ask questions of the first slayer has vague overtones
of various prophets' spending time in the desert.
Probably not, actually, which is why I've never mentioned it
before.
>
> Where is Wood going with that shovel - to uncover the
> Seal of Danzathar again? And exactly what is his stake in
> this? He's acting very shiftily in this ep, with his "I like
> mysteries <smirks behind Buffy's back>" and seeming
> acceptance of Buffy and Dawn's lame excuses. I find it
> impossible to believe that he's just a hypnotised bystander;
> I just don't know which side he's really on.
>
I think there may have been a clue from (fake) Drusilla:
"... needs a caning; never learned his headmaster's lessons",
where headmaster = principal, of course.
>
> Note that if Faith and the remaining potentials die in the
> course of this series, we'll be perfectly set up for Fray.
It was good to hear Faith mentioned. Particularly just as
I was wondering why, since they were gathering slayer
muscle for the fight, they didn't spring Faith from
the Angelverse penitentiary.
What is Fray, btw?
> MISCELLANEOUS TRIVIA
Andrew refers to Buffy's shiny hair (and there were
lots of hair references in s6). Does SMG advertise
shampoo in the USA?
John.
Speaker-to-Customers
> "David Chapman" wrote ...
"Terminator". You can't get out much at all, or watch much non-Buffy
television.
Paul Speaker-to-Customers
Nadia
The Terminator - final closing fight. And it's not in David's head
because I thought the exact same thing when I saw it.
Still The Terminator was far more menacing than little Uber-Vampy
thing.
> Some of us don't get out much, you see.
>
> Also, why does Buffy give up when the stake does not work?
> We have seen this before with ancient vamps: Kissing Toast in
> s3x03 Faith, Hope And Trick. Faith uses a small forest to kill
> Kakistos.
Because Buffy's a loser :) And she gets to moan and despair about it
afterwards like "It's like nothing I've ever faced. How do we defeat
it?!" and infuse the show with gravitas that isn't deserved.
>
> >
> > Buffy's "stirring speech", which SFAICT boils down to "We
> > can't fight this thing, we can't beat it, so we're going to fight it
> > and beat it." Ridiculous bombastic gibberish.
>
> Out of character too. Buffy is not known for her oratory.
> Recall "not exactly the St Crispin's Day speech"? Or am
> I just remembering that line and in fact Buffy is known for
> motivational speeches? No.
No, the speech jarred and made me want to vomit :)
>
> >
> > Drusilla. As if Molly's accent wasn't irritating enough...
>
> Gawd bless yer, Mary Poppins.
Come on let's get this little group of islands together in rage and
have Angel doing his Oirish accent. Who pays these dialog coaches
anyway?
>
> >
> > Note that if Faith and the remaining potentials die in the
> > course of this series, we'll be perfectly set up for Fray.
>
> It was good to hear Faith mentioned. Particularly just as
> I was wondering why, since they were gathering slayer
> muscle for the fight, they didn't spring Faith from
> the Angelverse penitentiary.
>
And don't get me started on the fact noone has pointed to Buffy that
she's not really the Slayer. Pfffft.
> What is Fray, btw?
Some comic thing, set in the future, with a new slayer. I think.
Nadia
John L
"Speaker-to-Customers" <gre...@manx.net> wrote in message news:b5el73$27rvov$1...@ID-138064.news.dfncis.de...
No, I don't. I'll try new series but my standards are high.
BtVS *is* one of the best television series ever.
But I'm not campaigning for a loyalty pledge to be added
to the umtb charter. Yet.
John.
Paul Hyett
Chapman <nos...@nospam.gro> wrote :
>
>Marti Noxon, who SFAICR hasn't written anything to justify
>her pay cheque since The Wish and who in each of the last five
>seasons has contributed one of what were generally considered to
>be the worst two episodes - not to mention the worst ever
>episodes of both Buffy and Angel [1].
Curiously, I like a greater proportion of her episodes than I do of
Joss's.
>
>Annabelle running away from a safe bastion to certain death,
>despite having previously been the most level-headed of the
>potentials *and* the one telling everyone to sit tight.
Odd.
>
>Buffy's fight with the ubervamp in the iron works. Now let me
>think, where else have we seen a limping woman pursued by a
>deadly killer through a factory? I'll give you a clue - in the same
>James Cameron movie from which this fight not only directly
>lifted two sequences (the shouldering aside of crushing metal
>and the beating sequence) but even had the *fucking* temerity
>to lift the *score* as well at one crucial point.
I thought it looked familiar.
> Oh, and can
>someone give me a convincing explanation as to why the
>ubervamp doesn't run after Buffy when she's limping to get a
>weapon but is perfectly capable of running and jumping later
>in the fight? Don't bother trying, BTW - that question was
>rhetorical. It's to match the pace of the scene to the original.
All I'm wondering is why he didn't finish her off?
>
>Drusilla. As if Molly's accent wasn't irritating enough...
>
But it wasn't really Drusilla... :)
>
>THINGS TO SPECULATE ON
>
>Is that the First infiltrating Buffy's dreams as Joyce, or is it
>something else? Could there be a First Good to balance the
>First Evil?
>
>Where is Wood going with that shovel - to uncover the
>Seal of Danzathar again?
How? He doesn't know it'd been covered up.
>
>SFAICT, Giles doesn't interact physically with anything or
>anybody in the course of this episode. Could he actually be
>the First?
I didn't notice this.
>
>Note that if Faith and the remaining potentials die in the
>course of this series, we'll be perfectly set up for Fray.
Huh?
--
Paul 'US Sitcom Fan' Hyett - The Wild Frame Grabber of the Net!
Website at http://www.activist.demon.co.uk/USsitcoms/
David Chapman
>> Where is Wood going with that shovel - to uncover the
>> Seal of Danzathar again?
>
> How? He doesn't know it'd been covered up.
Do we know that? We don't know what information he has at his disposal.
>>
>> SFAICT, Giles doesn't interact physically with anything or
>> anybody in the course of this episode. Could he actually be
>> the First?
>
> I didn't notice this.
Check it again.
>>
>> Note that if Faith and the remaining potentials die in the
>> course of this series, we'll be perfectly set up for Fray.
>
> Huh?
Why does no bugger round here ever seem to have heard of the much-touted
Whedon-written future Slayer story?
David Chapman
>>> Which fight? Which film?
>>>
>>> Some of us don't get out much, you see.
>>
>> "Terminator". You can't get out much at all, or watch much non-Buffy
>> television.
> No, I don't. I'll try new series but my standards are high.
Try Boomtown, then. Non-genre, but one of the best shows I've ever seen.
(Tuesdays on C5, after CSI.)
> BtVS *is* one of the best television series ever.
And Terminator is one of the best movies ever.
Kevin O'Neill
"David Chapman" <nos...@nospam.gro> wrote in message
> And Terminator is one of the best movies ever.
>
JD snicker.
Kevin O'Neill
"David Chapman" <nos...@nospam.gro> wrote in message
> >> course of this series, we'll be perfectly set up for Fray.
> >
> > Huh?
>
> Why does no bugger round here ever seem to have heard of the much-touted
> Whedon-written future Slayer story?
Heard of, never read. Was it not quite a bit in the future, as in so that
Fray would therefore be a distant twinkle in someones eye just now? I think
Buffy/Faith/etc were long dead, and since slayers seem to only be between
15/24 say, it's unlikely Fray will show up on TV
QrizB
>Come on let's get this little group of islands together in rage and
>have Angel doing his Oirish accent. Who pays these dialog coaches
>anyway?
They *pay* them? I thought it was some form of work experience scheme
for backwoodsmen :-P
--
QrizB
I sound like I know what I'm talking about, but don't
be fooled.
QrizB
Since you've already had a satisfactory answer, this is me mocking
your lack-of-fanboyness.
<mock>
:oP
</mock>
QrizB
Yep, a killer line and no mistake.
>THINGS TO DISLIKE
>Annabelle running away from a safe bastion to certain death,
>despite having previously been the most level-headed of the
>potentials *and* the one telling everyone to sit tight. Molly
>mght have run because she was scared; Kennedy might have
>gone out from overconfidence, but for Annabelle to run was
>completely unbelievable. No, this was blatantly done for no
>reason other than to set up Buffy's fight with the ubervamp in
>the iron works.
Yep. I watched this and thought "ooh, look, Annabelle is a turncoat of
some sort, she's off to grass up the rest of them." Then she was offed
in, like, no time flat without so much as opening her mouth. So that
was that plot twist, er, untwisted.
Paul Hyett
Chapman <nos...@nospam.gro> wrote :
>>> course of this series, we'll be perfectly set up for Fray.
>>
>> Huh?
>
>Why does no bugger round here ever seem to have heard of the much-touted
>Whedon-written future Slayer story?
>
David Chapman
No, but *Faith and the potentials* is.
pikelet
"David Chapman" <nos...@nospam.gro> is twanging, all Hoob-like, at me.
I calmly say:
What, it spoilers the fact that Faith's a Slayer too?
Oooh, boogedy-boogedy.
Tim.
phobos
> think, where else have we seen a limping woman pursued by a
> deadly killer through a factory?
In another Terminator angle, I couldn't help thinking...
'You have an incredibly hard vampire who is trapped in a hole in the
ground until sunset. Go, hijack a fuel tanker, pour, light, enjoy.'
And then the iron works scene began. Maybe filling the cave with
liquid nitrogen would have worked just as well...
> Drusilla. As if Molly's accent wasn't irritating enough...
Accent hell, like nails on a blackboard.
> MISCELLANEOUS TRIVIA
>
> Buffy needs a better search engine; she only got 900,517
> hits for "evil" on hers, whereas Google gives 10,600,000.
Of course when I saw that scene I immediately switched to a windowed
view and fired up Google, and ran a search for 'manifestations of
evil'. The #1 result is marvellously recursive.
John L
"phobos" <pho...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:af26c87a.03032...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > Buffy needs a better search engine; she only got 900,517
> > hits for "evil" on hers, whereas Google gives 10,600,000.
>
> Of course when I saw that scene I immediately switched to a windowed
> view and fired up Google, and ran a search for 'manifestations of
> evil'. The #1 result is marvellously recursive.
That scene showed that Principal Wood has excellent eyesight,
perhaps superhuman?
And presumably Buffy's coffee was strategically placed to
hide SMG's inability to type.
John.
Reg Flobert
>
> Accent hell, like nails on a blackboard.
>
People who've lived in different parts of the world for long periods of time
do tend to have strange accents. Armed forces children are a good example.
But apart from that, I have a friend from South-East London who actually
does speak like Dru. Unfortunately, when I say "speak like", I don't mean
just her accent... :)
Reg
Claire
That wasn't the point being made. I'll explain, but as it's potentially
spoilery because Fray is set in a post-Buffy world and sets up the 'ending'
(however vaguely) I'll put some more space in so you can decide if you want
to read:
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The premise of Fray is that there have been no vampires and no slayers for
some 200 years because of something that happened in the 21st Century that
caused both lines to end. Obviously, in Fray both vampires and slayers are
back again (what goes around, comes around). But for Buffy to finish in a
way that sets up the timeline for Fray (which it doesn't necessarily have to
do, mind, as it could be another slayer at some point in the next 100 years
or so that sorts that out), then all the potential slayers would need to be
wiped out/unpotentialled and she and Faith would need to be either dead or no
longer slayers. So where this story is currently heading does seem to
suggest that it _could_ be setting this up.
Claire
--
Still prettiest by far.
phobos
No, that wasn't a spoiler. On the other hand, THAT was. Bringing up Faith
isn't a spoiler; Buffy and Giles right now are gathering every possible
slayer on the planet to fight the First, so it's reasonable to assume that
at some point they're going to call on Faith for backup. However, coming
along and posting that discussion of Faith is a spoiler is a spoiler in
itself, because it gives away that Faith IS going to be brought back. And I
didn't know that for sure until now, you spoiling git.
--
1 February 2003: There we were, now here we are; all this confusion,
nothing's the same to me...
John L
"phobos" <pho...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:b5q9o6$tiv$2...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> No, that wasn't a spoiler. On the other hand, THAT was.
There is always going to be this problem: a spoiler warning
can be a meta-spoiler. It is a trap I've walked into, and
maybe it is inescapable.
If some loser posts an unprotected spoiler, then I'll often
post a warning to that effect. This, istm, is a good thing for
those who, having seen the warning, steer clear of the spoiler.
For people who have already been spoiled, it is too late,
of course.
But there is a third group: those who have read the spoiler
but have not realised it was a spoiler. The warning then tips
them off and triggers the spoiler.
Now, probably the benefits of the warning outweigh
the costs but this is not fair because the costs and benefits
accrue to different people. Perhaps we should keep
warnings as vague as possible, and say where a spoiler
is but not identify what it is.
Having said that, I am not convinced the damage to
this meta-spoiled group would not occur anyway.
It will just take a bit longer.
<daft example>
Suppose I post that Spike looks a right idiot in
that multicoloured jacket he found in the Sunnydale
Oxfam shop in s8x21. That is a major spoiler.
But none of you non-downloaders stuck on s7 will
realise that until someone flames me for posting it.
Until you see s8x11 where Giles tells Willow
about the ancient prophecy of the s8 Big Bad that
can only be killed by smothering it with a magical
multicoloured jacket believed to have been destroyed
in the Great Fire of London. And at that point you
remember my post of three months ago and all
the suspense in the second half of s8 is gone.
</daft example>
John.
David Chapman
Firstly, you're wrong; the appearance of potential slayers in the show *is*
a spoiler.
Secondly, the plot to kill off the potentials is already known by anyone who
should be reading this thread, as is the aim of doing so - to end the Slayer
line. Faith has to die to achieve that aim WHETHER OR NOT SHE APPEARS IN
THE SHOW. However, the plot to kill them *is* a spoiler to anyone who has
not seen up to 7X10, and thus must remain behind spoiler space. Since the
only people who should be reading it have seen to 7X10, clarifying what the
spoiler is shouldn't be spoiling anybody.
Thirdly, at no point in this thread have I even suggested that Faith will
reappear - only that she is an important plot element. If she doesn't,
you've just made an ass of yourself. If she does, then you must already
know that to read between the lines; again, self-inflicted assdom.
Lastly, I wrote this post when no episode past 7X10 had been transmitted.
The people who read it then - many of whom possess at least half a brain -
saw nothing spoilerific about it then. Since I haven't altered a single
word of it, it cannot be spoilerific now.