interesting discussion
Foxy
Online right now, on one of the mucks, I got involved in a discussion
about anime, with a guy who had just finished watching a documentary
about anime on TV.
A few interesting points sprung up, the main ones being;
a. Anime is dangerous to the western world. Especially to those (like
me!) who draw it, as we don't understand what it's about. Apparently, we
can mimic manga artwork, but we can't put any feeling into it, because
there's centuries of culture in every manga picture we see.
As a consequence, the average anime publisher in Japan laughs at the
likes of us. (according to this tv show)
b. The Japanese don't understand *why* on earth we buy their comics, etc,
as we won't be able to understand them at all. Not that they mind, as
it's extra sales.
Just wondering what other folks reckon to this.. no, I have no clue what
tv show this was, nor even what country it was being shown in.
I guess we're all poor, deluded fools now.. :)
/------------------------------------------------------
---Foxy!--- / "We must infiltrate, integrate with humans, using our
kp...@coventry.ac.uk / superior talents to gain control of their politics,
fo...@tigerden.com / their media of communication, their legends, their
Artist, furry fan / beliefs, so that, when the times comes, they will have
and Vulpophile! / been seduced to the acceptance of the inevitable, the
-----------------/ era of foxes."
Thomas Edge
Foxy wrote in message ...
>
>
>Online right now, on one of the mucks, I got involved in a discussion
>about anime, with a guy who had just finished watching a documentary
>about anime on TV.
>
>A few interesting points sprung up, the main ones being;
>
>a. Anime is dangerous to the western world. Especially to those (like
>me!) who draw it, as we don't understand what it's about. Apparently, we
>can mimic manga artwork, but we can't put any feeling into it, because
>there's centuries of culture in every manga picture we see.
His point? this is no different to exporting western movies to asian
regions, the same applies in that there is often legacies to old
dramas/mythologies
It could be using his twisted logic that anime is Japan's revenge for
America's cultural imperialism (whew!!!)
I don't think though that this is true of EVERY manga anime in any case just
as it isn't true of every (or even many) Hollywood/western movies
>As a consequence, the average anime publisher in Japan laughs at the
>likes of us. (according to this tv show)
>
I'd like to see names behind that assertion, particularly as there have been
a few co productions in recent years and the phonomenom of Japanese
production houses (Pioneer, Bandai and KSS) starting American offices
>b. The Japanese don't understand *why* on earth we buy their comics, etc,
>as we won't be able to understand them at all. Not that they mind, as
For the same reason that they watch Disney, somethings are international,
lets face it, cultural references aside (which can't be always done, series
such as Tenchi or Urusei Yatsura are quite thick with such references) a
comedy is a comedy in any language (although tastes in humor do vairy
widely), a thriller or a romance are the same in any language (and the
motivations of most the main characters in such situations would normally be
understandable) and (particularly, as many anime are SF) a Science Fiction
work is generally pretty universal.
A fairer argument perhaps is the flipside of this guy's argument which is
that by understanding anime and manga you can undderstand everything about
Japan, which is no more true than to say you can understand the European
mind by experiencing our popular culture. In both cases however by judicious
choices it CAN give some insight.
regards
Tom
Fox
>a. Anime is dangerous to the western world. Especially to those (like
>me!) who draw it, as we don't understand what it's about. Apparently, we
>can mimic manga artwork, but we can't put any feeling into it, because
>there's centuries of culture in every manga picture we see.
>As a consequence, the average anime publisher in Japan laughs at the
>likes of us. (according to this tv show)
I don't see that this qualifies it as dangerous in any way, even if it
were true.
>b. The Japanese don't understand *why* on earth we buy their comics, etc,
>as we won't be able to understand them at all. Not that they mind, as
>it's extra sales.
If that were true then nobody would buy them. Okay, nobody understood
Riot, but as far as I'm aware, that was true in Japan too.
>
>Just wondering what other folks reckon to this.. no, I have no clue what
>tv show this was, nor even what country it was being shown in.
>I guess we're all poor, deluded fools now.. :)
I guess so.
The bottom line is that we enjoy the stuff, and some of us even like
the cultural differences, and anime gives us a starting point to
explore those differences and maybe find out a little more about
another country. It seems to me that the documentary mentioned, or
possibly just the person talking about it feel that we should all hold
to some narrow cultural view that excludes any references from outside
its local culture. The general word for a person with that kind of
opinion is 'bigot'.
Or to put it simply: the guy was talking crap.
Fox
(Oops. Foxy and Fox in the same thread. This could get confusing.)
Fox
wrote:
>It could be using his twisted logic that anime is Japan's revenge for
>America's cultural imperialism (whew!!!)
Yay! Go Japan! Get them Yankees!
>>b. The Japanese don't understand *why* on earth we buy their comics, etc,
>>as we won't be able to understand them at all. Not that they mind, as
>
>For the same reason that they watch Disney, somethings are international,
>lets face it, cultural references aside (which can't be always done, series
>such as Tenchi or Urusei Yatsura are quite thick with such references) a
>comedy is a comedy in any language (although tastes in humor do vairy
>widely), a thriller or a romance are the same in any language (and the
>motivations of most the main characters in such situations would normally be
>understandable) and (particularly, as many anime are SF) a Science Fiction
>work is generally pretty universal.
I think you're stretching there. Sure, the motivations may be
analogous, but the culture will often impact on how those motivations
are implemented. Personally I wouldn't want to see a movie so bland
that it had no cultural background influences.
But to put a slightly different spin on it, consider historical
movies. The cultural background is somewhat unfamiliar, but it will
often have important effects on the characters. The best SF movies
introduce us to invented cultural backgrounds. When properly thought
through they can be very effective. Look at the Alien Nation TV show
- Its big strength was all about the impact of an alien culture on a
familiar one.
>A fairer argument perhaps is the flipside of this guy's argument which is
>that by understanding anime and manga you can undderstand everything about
>Japan, which is no more true than to say you can understand the European
>mind by experiencing our popular culture. In both cases however by judicious
>choices it CAN give some insight.
Hardly a representative insight, though. Look at british drama and
compare it to the reality it is based on. Even 'true life' dramas are
filled with incidents that rarely occur. Drama requires conflict;
reality is mostly quite dull. This is not so much 'don't mistake the
map for the territory', as 'don't mistake a brightly coloured crayon
drawing for the map'.
Fox
P.S. In case you didn't spot it, Mulan was full of cultural
references, and some of them were even chinese.
Chika
Foxy <kp...@coventry.ac.uk> wrote:
> Online right now, on one of the mucks, I got involved in a discussion
> about anime, with a guy who had just finished watching a documentary
> about anime on TV.
> A few interesting points sprung up, the main ones being;
> a. Anime is dangerous to the western world. Especially to those (like
> me!) who draw it, as we don't understand what it's about. Apparently, we
> can mimic manga artwork, but we can't put any feeling into it, because
> there's centuries of culture in every manga picture we see.
> As a consequence, the average anime publisher in Japan laughs at the
> likes of us. (according to this tv show)
Don't believe for a second that there is no appreciation of the history of
manga out there. Yes, the majority get involved for the story, the content
and so forth and never mind the history, but could you truly say that
every Japanese reader/viewer gives a toss either? As for actually drawing
manga, that is to be expected, but it is a blanket condemnation based on
mainstream attempts at mimicry. Not surprising when you bear in mind what
the mainstream is made up of...
> b. The Japanese don't understand *why* on earth we buy their comics, etc,
> as we won't be able to understand them at all. Not that they mind, as
> it's extra sales.
Again, that assumes a lot, but then you would need to go into depth about
exactly which parts of manga we aren't supposed to understand, language
aside that is. Certainly when you get involved with deep seated cultural
differences, then you could be running into problems (I would cite here
the copious notes that accompany UY releases, most of which tend to be
devoted to just this subject).
> Just wondering what other folks reckon to this.. no, I have no clue what
> tv show this was, nor even what country it was being shown in.
> I guess we're all poor, deluded fools now.. :)
Sounds like the US to me. There was something similar to this in one of
the major newspapers last year which caused a large stink on raam. It
appeared that there is a certain sector of the movie and television
industry over there that, while they like the audiences that get hooked on
series such as Sailor Moon and so forth, they totally object to the source
for various reasons, not all of them to do with artistic or cultural
references. I could be wrong, though...
--
______
| /\ | Chika (irc #anime) - mad...@argonet.co.uk Phoebe Reg.No. 128
| //\\ | The Lurkers' Retreat / Madoka's Crash Pages aICQ UIN 15258170
|_/__\_| http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/ (ZFC A / CAPOW)
... It's not so much how we stand as the direction we're moving.
Ben D.
>
> A fairer argument perhaps is the flipside of this guy's argument which is
> that by understanding anime and manga you can undderstand everything about
> Japan, which is no more true than to say you can understand the European
> mind by experiencing our popular culture. In both cases however by judicious
> choices it CAN give some insight.
I reckon most gaijin anime fans were Japanese in a past life ^_^
Seriously though, what makes a person on one side of the world so very
different from someone on the other side? Granted, Japanese culture is
very alien and remained largely isolated until shortly after the turn of
this century, but the instincts and driving force behind human nature
remain the same no matter how isolated the society.
In other words - the products of a person's imagination and creativity
can be appreciated by anyone, even though the details may require some
explanation.
Just thought I'd throw in my contribution...
> regards
>
> Tom
Ben.
Foxy
> The bottom line is that we enjoy the stuff, and some of us even like
> the cultural differences, and anime gives us a starting point to
> explore those differences and maybe find out a little more about
> another country. It seems to me that the documentary mentioned, or
> possibly just the person talking about it feel that we should all hold
> to some narrow cultural view that excludes any references from outside
> its local culture. The general word for a person with that kind of
> opinion is 'bigot'.
I tried to get this point across, that by having an interest in anime,
(certainly in my case) leads to an interest in the country and culture
producing what you're watching.
I also found it ironic, as there are some nice US manga-esque comic
series, such as Gold Digger, Reality Check!, Gremlin Trouble...
> Or to put it simply: the guy was talking crap.
I actually phrased it as "that's utter bull, isn't it" :)
Chika
Foxy <kp...@coventry.ac.uk> wrote:
> I tried to get this point across, that by having an interest in anime,
> (certainly in my case) leads to an interest in the country and culture
> producing what you're watching.
> I also found it ironic, as there are some nice US manga-esque comic
> series, such as Gold Digger, Reality Check!, Gremlin Trouble...
Yay! Someone else who has heard of Gremlin Trouble!!! ^_^
> > Or to put it simply: the guy was talking crap.
> I actually phrased it as "that's utter bull, isn't it" :)
I rate it very close to that guy who keeps raising the question of
anime/manga "big eyes" and so forth over on raam. (Mind you, that guy is a
racist bigot who deserves all the flames he gets and more!)
--
______
| /\ | Chika (irc #anime) - mad...@argonet.co.uk Phoebe Reg.No. 128
| //\\ | The Lurkers' Retreat / Madoka's Crash Pages aICQ UIN 15258170
|_/__\_| http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/ (ZFC A / CAPOW)
... Our necessities are few but our wants are endless...
Emill Szynsky
>
>
>Online right now, on one of the mucks, I got involved in a discussion
>about anime, with a guy who had just finished watching a documentary
>about anime on TV.
>
>A few interesting points sprung up, the main ones being;
>
>a. Anime is dangerous to the western world. Especially to those (like
>me!) who draw it, as we don't understand what it's about.
Maybe at the limit "incompatible" with the Western world, but by no
means any more dangerous than a Hardsuited Nene!
>Apparently, we
>can mimic manga artwork, but we can't put any feeling into it, because
>there's centuries of culture in every manga picture we see.
It's quite possible that it's misunderstood, like the puns in Nadesico.
As for the culture, I've read very little about Japanese art, but enough
to realise that it has very different roots to our thinking. I think
manga is closer to film, though, than art in its execution. Thinks like
Zen Bhuddist awe of nature, high horizon lines and minimalism may
influence Japanese comic art, but not on the superficial level where I
enjoy manga!!! ^_^
>As a consequence, the average anime publisher in Japan laughs at the
>likes of us. (according to this tv show)
It's possible. I think it's far-fetched, but a culture that rakes
gravel and talks about harmony with nature (at an extreme that I don't
understand) may well produce comics with a deeper meaning locked in the
aesthetic... Or maybe not...
It's far-fetched, and I don't even think it matters, however, knowing a
little bit about Chinese and Japanese are, I wouldn't put it past the
manga artists...
>b. The Japanese don't understand *why* on earth we buy their comics, etc,
>as we won't be able to understand them at all. Not that they mind, as
>it's extra sales.
Well, maybe *we* should be able to judge how much *we* understand? I
think part of the attraction of anime and manga is that there's a hell
of a lot more there to *try* to understand, than in Western
entertainment. Maybe Golgo 13 is evidence that some Japanese studio is
grossly underestimating us?
>Just wondering what other folks reckon to this.. no, I have no clue what
>tv show this was, nor even what country it was being shown in.
>I guess we're all poor, deluded fools now.. :)
This wealth is relative, methinks...
Emill
/***\ /***\
(******v******) Fire Emblem Final Fantasy
\***EMILL***/
\*SZYNSKY*/ <R-chan's_co...@metrassoc.demon.co.uk>
\*******/
\***/ ICQ#: 11647258
V
Nick Roberts
Foxy <kp...@coventry.ac.uk> wrote:
> a. Anime is dangerous to the western world. Especially to those (like
> me!) who draw it, as we don't understand what it's about. Apparently, we
> can mimic manga artwork, but we can't put any feeling into it, because
> there's centuries of culture in every manga picture we see.
> As a consequence, the average anime publisher in Japan laughs at the
> likes of us. (according to this tv show)
Why pick on anime?
Exactly the same logic could be applied to (say) The Seven Samurai, and it
was not only a superb film in its own right, it has spawned at least two
western remakes.
And on the other side of the coin, if the cultural differences are so great,
why did Kurosawa make Ran? It would be hard to imagine a less oriental
playright than Shakespeare, but what he had to say in Lear obviously spoke
strongly enough to Kurosawa to make him want to make it more easily
accessible to the Japanese public.
There are cultural differences, obviously, or the remakes would not
necessary (just a good dub!); but the underlying story and the motivations
behind the characters are little different.
Or do the Japanese keep all their cultural references for anime and manga?
> As a consequence, the average anime publisher in Japan laughs at the
> likes of us. (according to this tv show)
> b. The Japanese don't understand *why* on earth we buy their comics, etc,
> as we won't be able to understand them at all. Not that they mind, as
> it's extra sales.
Presumably we buy their comics for the same reason that they listen to and
perform western classical music? Because we enjoy it, and because those
cultural barriers aren't as totally opaque as he would have us believe?
--
Nick Roberts
tigger @ argonet.co.uk ZFC Ru http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/tigger/
GS/M d++@ H s:+ g+(?) p?+ au>+ a+(?) w+@ v-* C++++ U--- P--- L- 3- N+++ E?
K- W--- M+ V++ -po+ Y+ t+ 5 R+ G' tv b+++ D+ !B e++(*) u-* h+ f r* n---- y?
Fox
>I tried to get this point across, that by having an interest in anime,
>(certainly in my case) leads to an interest in the country and culture
>producing what you're watching.
Or sometimes just an interest in tentacles? =^_^=
Depends what you're watching I guess.
>I also found it ironic, as there are some nice US manga-esque comic
>series, such as Gold Digger, Reality Check!, Gremlin Trouble...
Yet another mention of Reality Check! Why can I not find this
anywhere? <sob> I'd also recommend Geisha, which doesn't look
japanese but has a very manga feel to it somehow (despite the Adam
Warren cover on issue 2), which lead me to pick up vol. 1 of the
collected Skeleton Key by the same guy. This has some heavy japanese
influences, but makes no claim to be 'manga-style', unlike some other
american products which have a lot of superficial manga influences but
actually don't read like manga at all.
>> Or to put it simply: the guy was talking crap.
>
>I actually phrased it as "that's utter bull, isn't it" :)
No argument there.
>
> /------------------------------------------------------
> ---Foxy!--- / "We must infiltrate, integrate with humans, using our
>kp...@coventry.ac.uk / superior talents to gain control of their politics,
> fo...@tigerden.com / their media of communication, their legends, their
> Artist, furry fan / beliefs, so that, when the times comes, they will have
> and Vulpophile! / been seduced to the acceptance of the inevitable, the
>-----------------/ era of foxes."
Heh heh heh =^_^=
Fox
Nyk Tarr
Foxy wrote:
> Online right now, on one of the mucks, I got involved in a discussion
> about anime, with a guy who had just finished watching a documentary
> about anime on TV.
> A few interesting points sprung up, the main ones being;
> a. Anime is dangerous to the western world. Especially to those (like
> me!) who draw it, as we don't understand what it's about. Apparently, we
> can mimic manga artwork, but we can't put any feeling into it, because
> there's centuries of culture in every manga picture we see.
> As a consequence, the average anime publisher in Japan laughs at the
> likes of us. (according to this tv show)
> b. The Japanese don't understand *why* on earth we buy their comics, etc,
> as we won't be able to understand them at all. Not that they mind, as
> it's extra sales.
AIUI both of these are essentially true. However, the Japanese people
who say this are wrong.
Conspiracy theory? Nah, just people who don't know their arse from
their elbow.
Tanaka
--
____ _
/__ _]| http://www.tomobiki.demon.co.uk
/ \/ |_ | Team AMIGA
/ /\ _)| Seen Otaku no Video?
+++ Error At Address: 14 Treacle Mine Road, Ankh-Morpork +++
Fox
wrote:
>>I think you're stretching there. Sure, the motivations may be
>>analogous, but the culture will often impact on how those motivations
>>are implemented. Personally I wouldn't want to see a movie so bland
>>that it had no cultural background influences.
>>
>Agreed I'm not saying that cultural references aren't there merely that they
>are rearely so thickly sewn into the fabric as to make the films as a whole
>opaque
True. But I *like* that stuff.
>agreed again but as I've already noted it's not the fact that cultural
>references are an integral part of a film making process, they clearly
>are.I'm arguing against this idea that it makes a film unapproachable to
>anyone without an intimate background in the country origin's culture (in
>anime's case Japan) as this is clearly a bogus claim
Agreed.
It's a shame the people who put anime on american TV can't see the
value of allowing a little cultural diversity to slip through, but
it's the first thing that tends to cut or rewritten. Well, that and
panty shots.
>It depends on what you watch and what you filter out as dramatic liscense,
>Ghost in the Shell won't give you any insight to contemporary Japan but
>Maison Ikkoku certainly will but neither will make you an expert, using your
>analogy it wouldn't be street directory but it may be the start (and only
>the start) of a crude mud map in some cases
I'm sure GITS says something about contemporary Japan, but I couldn't
tell you what.
>(a quote on war at this point seems appropriate: War is 95% boredom
>interspersed with 5% sheer terror" when was tthe last time you saw a war
>movie like that eh?)
Exactly my point. Better analogy than I could come up with off the
top of my head.
>
>>P.S. In case you didn't spot it, Mulan was full of cultural
>>references, and some of them were even chinese.
>
>I think I picked that up (letting the sarcasm slide)
Gomen. The sarcasm wasn't really directed at you so much as at the
Mouse People.
>but it is also fair to
>say that Chinese references were in there AFTER they had been through the
>American cultural filter (ie things that were similar enough to what the
>target audience knows and/or can get a clue about easily to stay in the
>film)
That's what I said.
Looks like we're in agreement then.
Fox
Martin D. Pay
wrote:
<Snip>
>a. Anime is dangerous to the western world. Especially to those (like
>me!) who draw it, as we don't understand what it's about. Apparently, we
>can mimic manga artwork, but we can't put any feeling into it, because
>there's centuries of culture in every manga picture we see.
Absolute BS, of course. What an artist (a true artist, not just a
talented copyist) produces comes from inside. Manga may be drawn
in a particular way, but there are several US artists who produce
very appealing 'manga-esque' work (Adam Warren, Fred Perry and
Ben Dunn immediately spring to mind).
>As a consequence, the average anime publisher in Japan laughs at the
>likes of us. (according to this tv show)
They don't laugh - they're too busy counting the extra cash from
the overseas licensing... ^_^
>b. The Japanese don't understand *why* on earth we buy their comics, etc,
>as we won't be able to understand them at all. Not that they mind, as
>it's extra sales.
This is partly true. Takahashi has stated several times that she
wonders how much we westerners understand in her work -
especially the more 'ethnocentric' pieces like Maison Ikkoku...
Of course, this is partly overcome by a good translator, who can
cast the more opaque material into a local equivalent (or near
equivalent, anyway).
The show in question sounds like one of the more narrow-minded US
ones, I fear... ^_^
Martin D. Pay
Thinking, this sounds like a right wind-up... probably by someone
who ought to know better!
Thomas Edge
>>For the same reason that they watch Disney, somethings are international,
>>lets face it, cultural references aside (which can't be always done,
series
>>such as Tenchi or Urusei Yatsura are quite thick with such references) a
>>comedy is a comedy in any language (although tastes in humor do vairy
>>widely), a thriller or a romance are the same in any language (and the
>>motivations of most the main characters in such situations would normally
be
>>understandable) and (particularly, as many anime are SF) a Science
Fiction
>>work is generally pretty universal.
>
>I think you're stretching there. Sure, the motivations may be
>analogous, but the culture will often impact on how those motivations
>are implemented. Personally I wouldn't want to see a movie so bland
>that it had no cultural background influences.
>
Agreed I'm not saying that cultural references aren't there merely that they
are rearely so thickly sewn into the fabric as to make the films as a whole
opaque
>But to put a slightly different spin on it, consider historical
>movies. The cultural background is somewhat unfamiliar, but it will
>often have important effects on the characters. The best SF movies
>introduce us to invented cultural backgrounds. When properly thought
>through they can be very effective. Look at the Alien Nation TV show
>- Its big strength was all about the impact of an alien culture on a
>familiar one.
>
agreed again but as I've already noted it's not the fact that cultural
references are an integral part of a film making process, they clearly
are.I'm arguing against this idea that it makes a film unapproachable to
anyone without an intimate background in the country origin's culture (in
anime's case Japan) as this is clearly a bogus claim
>>A fairer argument perhaps is the flipside of this guy's argument which is
>>that by understanding anime and manga you can undderstand everything about
>>Japan, which is no more true than to say you can understand the European
>>mind by experiencing our popular culture. In both cases however by
judicious
>>choices it CAN give some insight.
>
>Hardly a representative insight, though. Look at british drama and
>compare it to the reality it is based on. Even 'true life' dramas are
>filled with incidents that rarely occur. Drama requires conflict;
>reality is mostly quite dull. This is not so much 'don't mistake the
>map for the territory', as 'don't mistake a brightly coloured crayon
>drawing for the map'.
>
It depends on what you watch and what you filter out as dramatic liscense,
Ghost in the Shell won't give you any insight to contemporary Japan but
Maison Ikkoku certainly will but neither will make you an expert, using your
analogy it wouldn't be street directory but it may be the start (and only
the start) of a crude mud map in some cases
(a quote on war at this point seems appropriate: War is 95% boredom
interspersed with 5% sheer terror" when was tthe last time you saw a war
movie like that eh?)
>P.S. In case you didn't spot it, Mulan was full of cultural
>references, and some of them were even chinese.
I think I picked that up (letting the sarcasm slide) but it is also fair to
say that Chinese references were in there AFTER they had been through the
American cultural filter (ie things that were similar enough to what the
target audience knows and/or can get a clue about easily to stay in the
film)
regards
Tom
Emill Szynsky
<sak...@globalnet.co.uk> writes
>On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 02:13:04 +0000, Foxy <kp...@coventry.ac.uk>
>wrote:
>
><Snip>
>
>>a. Anime is dangerous to the western world. Especially to those (like
>>me!) who draw it, as we don't understand what it's about. Apparently, we
>>can mimic manga artwork, but we can't put any feeling into it, because
>>there's centuries of culture in every manga picture we see.
>
>Absolute BS, of course. What an artist (a true artist, not just a
>talented copyist) produces comes from inside. Manga may be drawn
>in a particular way, but there are several US artists who produce
>very appealing 'manga-esque' work (Adam Warren, Fred Perry and
>Ben Dunn immediately spring to mind).
But, as Fox observes, it often doesn't "read like manga", there are
differences in narrative style and the way the face and figure are used,
to the point where drawing manga art is considerably different to
drawing Western comic art. I'm confident any artsit can put feeling
into their work whatever they're producing, but from the Japanese PoV,
it's not the same.
Besides, how many US pseudomanga have been translated back into Japanese
to allow the Japanese manga artists to judge them fairly? hmmm...?!
^_^
Fox
<R-chan's_co...@metrassoc.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>Absolute BS, of course. What an artist (a true artist, not just a
>>talented copyist) produces comes from inside. Manga may be drawn
>>in a particular way, but there are several US artists who produce
>>very appealing 'manga-esque' work (Adam Warren, Fred Perry and
>>Ben Dunn immediately spring to mind).
>
>But, as Fox observes, it often doesn't "read like manga", there are
>differences in narrative style and the way the face and figure are used,
>to the point where drawing manga art is considerably different to
>drawing Western comic art. I'm confident any artsit can put feeling
>into their work whatever they're producing, but from the Japanese PoV,
>it's not the same.
My point exactly. Adam Warren's stuff has a superficial manga look
but the pacing and storytelling is solidly american. It's paced much
faster than true manga. And although I love Fred Perry's work, I'd
personally label it 'manga-influenced' than anything else. Of course
the reason for this is largely the way it's packaged. The american
comics industry is a cut-throat business, and there's a motivation to
cram a lot more story into a monthly 20-30 pages, where japanese work
is presented in a weekly format where you can afford to take it slow
sometimes because the story is packaged along with 10 others which
will absorb the slack in any one strip, and the sales are so high
(comparatively) that there's a lot more room to manoeuver. American
comics sell in the thousands, japanese comics sell in the millions.
Most Antarctic comics sell between one and five thousand. At that
level the creators are barely breaking even. Even the top Marvel
titles are lucky to go over 50,000. The average manga sells two
million and then goes into permanent reprint in collected format. So
western comics creators simply can't work in the same way.
>Besides, how many US pseudomanga have been translated back into Japanese
>to allow the Japanese manga artists to judge them fairly? hmmm...?!
I know there are some western produced comics appearing in japanese,
but I don't know of any that started out as pseudomanga.
Fox
Ian Worrall
Fox <f...@archea.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Yet another mention of Reality Check! Why can I not find this
> anywhere? <sob>
<snip>
United Publications were listing it in their catalogue at Ayacon,
maybe you should see if they have any? I think they had issues 1-6 as
a GN.
--
Ian Worrall mailto: i...@BIGGUN.keinyuri.u-net.com
I'm not a fan, I just watch the stuff ^_^
Please disarm the Lovely Angels before replying
Cosplay website at http://www.keinyuri.u-net.com/home.htm
Stuart Dawson
>It depends on what you watch and what you filter out as dramatic liscense,
>Ghost in the Shell won't give you any insight to contemporary Japan
Not true (IMO). Just take a look at the "dolls" who are acting as
support/secretarial work for the teams. All of them are designed as
cute young women. If that doesn't say something I don't know what
does. There are other bits in there too if you go looking.
The places you tend to find real insights in a culture are those
aspects the people don't think about and take for granted IMO.
>(a quote on war at this point seems appropriate: War is 95% boredom
>interspersed with 5% sheer terror" when was tthe last time you saw a war
>movie like that eh?)
Saving Private Ryawn.
--
***AKEMI TAKADA*******KOR******TWILIGHT X*****
Goldfish - Very colourful but no memory
Me = Goldfish
**********GOLD DIGGER******GRITSTONE**********
Stuart Dawson
>a. Anime is dangerous to the western world.
I'd rate crossing the road as being more dangerous myself.
>As a consequence, the average anime publisher in Japan laughs at the
>likes of us. (according to this tv show)
<and>
>b. The Japanese don't understand *why* on earth we buy their comics, etc,
>as we won't be able to understand them at all. Not that they mind, as
>it's extra sales.
Probably not far that off the truth actually.
Stuart Dawson
>> b. The Japanese don't understand *why* on earth we buy their comics, etc,
>> as we won't be able to understand them at all. Not that they mind, as
>> it's extra sales.
>AIUI both of these are essentially true. However, the Japanese people
>who say this are wrong.
It's proabably got more to do with the fact that they think in a very
Japanese joe-public way. The average American/British joe-public
mindset is different due to massive cultural differences. I see myself
and many other anime fans as westerners who don't quite fit that
joe-public mould here.
If there's something about the main stream material that comes out of
Japan which just happens to co-incide with your personal sense of
humour/ethics/morality/whatever, it's very easy to get into it.
Foxy
> Or sometimes just an interest in tentacles? =^_^=
Puh-lease :) The tentacle stuff is just boring :)
> Yet another mention of Reality Check! Why can I not find this
> anywhere? <sob> I'd also recommend Geisha, which doesn't look
> japanese but has a very manga feel to it somehow (despite the Adam
> Warren cover on issue 2), which lead me to pick up vol. 1 of the
> collected Skeleton Key by the same guy. This has some heavy japanese
> influences, but makes no claim to be 'manga-style', unlike some other
> american products which have a lot of superficial manga influences but
> actually don't read like manga at all.
My copy of Reality Check! was the TPB which I found in my local Forbidden
Planet (note: FP in Coventry actually *rules*, since they started asking
me what to order :) )
United Publications do sell it too though..
Foxy
> Yay! Someone else who has heard of Gremlin Trouble!!! ^_^
Heh. I was sat next to the Gremlin Trouble staff at one convention, so.. :)
> I rate it very close to that guy who keeps raising the question of
> anime/manga "big eyes" and so forth over on raam. (Mind you, that guy is a
> racist bigot who deserves all the flames he gets and more!)
I'd put that alongside the guy who, when I mentioned anime, said "It's
not creative. It all looks the same". At a later point where he wanted to
see my art and I pointed him to some manga stuff I'd drawn, warning him
it was manga, he said "So what ? it's a very creative medium". :)
(And this guy is a professional comic artist. I won't say who though :) )
Stuart Dawson
>(note: FP in Coventry actually *rules*, since they started asking
>me what to order :) )
Been there, done that (except in the Leeds Odyssey 7 as was) ^_^
Fiona Clark
flawed hero (Hamlet is a classic example) doing his best with very
little hope of success, which from my experience is quite a common theme
in Japanese film and other media. I'm surprised that there hasn't been a
Japanese version of Titus Andronicus or Tamburlaine the King (if there
has can anyone who knows what the Japanese versions are let me know).
Just my 2 cents worth.
In article <3e80c79d48%tig...@argonet.co.uk>, Nick Roberts
<tig...@argonet.co.uk> writes
>In message <Pine.OSF.3.91.981031020839.23668A-100000@leofric>
> Foxy <kp...@coventry.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> a. Anime is dangerous to the western world. Especially to those (like
>> me!) who draw it, as we don't understand what it's about. Apparently, we
>> can mimic manga artwork, but we can't put any feeling into it, because
>> there's centuries of culture in every manga picture we see.
>> As a consequence, the average anime publisher in Japan laughs at the
>> likes of us. (according to this tv show)
>
>Why pick on anime?
>
>Exactly the same logic could be applied to (say) The Seven Samurai, and it
>was not only a superb film in its own right, it has spawned at least two
>western remakes.
>
>And on the other side of the coin, if the cultural differences are so great,
>why did Kurosawa make Ran? It would be hard to imagine a less oriental
>playright than Shakespeare, but what he had to say in Lear obviously spoke
>strongly enough to Kurosawa to make him want to make it more easily
>accessible to the Japanese public.
>
>There are cultural differences, obviously, or the remakes would not
>necessary (just a good dub!); but the underlying story and the motivations
>behind the characters are little different.
>
>Or do the Japanese keep all their cultural references for anime and manga?
>
>> As a consequence, the average anime publisher in Japan laughs at the
>> likes of us. (according to this tv show)
>
>> b. The Japanese don't understand *why* on earth we buy their comics, etc,
>> as we won't be able to understand them at all. Not that they mind, as
>> it's extra sales.
>
>Presumably we buy their comics for the same reason that they listen to and
>perform western classical music? Because we enjoy it, and because those
>cultural barriers aren't as totally opaque as he would have us believe?
>
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