Dunfermerline - city status?
fox1
after Government officials told campaigners they must produce a Royal
Charter proving it has a right to claim city status!
But the Scotland Office says Dunfermerline can refer to itself as
a city - unofficially!
Wasn't Dunfermerline the 'old' Scottish Capital before Edinburgh?
I wonder if that Industrial place on the Clyde can produce a Royal
Charter?
Dunfermerline is not alone in asking for official 'city' status,
would-be contenders include Inverness and Paisley.
Paisley in particular has a valid claim, it was a parish long before
Glasgow was a green.:-)
--
Visit the Edinburgh International Airport unofficial page on
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/jcurry
Ask your ISP for access to alt.airports.uk.edinburgh
Or post/read through www.deja.com.
rod
port.zetnet.co.uk> writes
>Wasn't Dunfermerline the 'old' Scottish Capital before Edinburgh?
The royal court was in Dunfermline in the days of Queen Margaret.
What practical advantage would city status confer?
--
rod
Colin D. Munro
news:199907261...@irport.zetnet.co.uk...
> Dunfermerline's bid to be officially declared a city has hit a hitch
> after Government officials told campaigners they must produce a Royal
> Charter proving it has a right to claim city status!
>
> But the Scotland Office says Dunfermerline can refer to itself as
> a city - unofficially!
>
>
> Charter?
>
> Dunfermerline is not alone in asking for official 'city' status,
> would-be contenders include Inverness and Paisley.
>
> Paisley in particular has a valid claim, it was a parish long before
> Glasgow was a green.:-)
Dunfermline city status : Boring :)
Colin
Adrian Tupper
wrote:
>In article <199907261...@irport.zetnet.co.uk>, fox1 <edinburgh@ir
>port.zetnet.co.uk> writes
>
>>Wasn't Dunfermerline the 'old' Scottish Capital before Edinburgh?
>
>The royal court was in Dunfermline in the days of Queen Margaret.
>What practical advantage would city status confer?
>--
>rod
Change of football team's name?
Adrian Tupper
McClassify's Munro Bagging on the Web
http://users.zetnet.co.uk/adriantupper/mindex.htm
fox1
from rod <bea...@beavers0.demon.co.uk> contains these words:
> The royal court was in Dunfermline in the days of Queen Margaret.
> What practical advantage would city status confer?
Its about civic pride - everyone seems to have caught the Glasgow
desease.
fox1
>Dunfermerline's bid to be officially declared a city has hit a hitch
>after Government officials told campaigners they must produce a Royal
>Charter proving it has a right to claim city status!
All you folk in Fife reading this; Look out for your own newsgroup
coming soon! ........... free.uk.talk.fife
rod
<mccla...@the-pinnacle.co.uk> writes
>>The royal court was in Dunfermline in the days of Queen Margaret.
>>What practical advantage would city status confer?
>>--
>>rod
>Change of football team's name?
Dumfermin Afletik to Dumfermin City?
One disadvantage of city status would be the prospect of having a Lord
Provost. A cursory glance across the Forth at Eric Milligan should be
enough to put the kybosh on any notions of city status. :>
--
rod
rod
port.zetnet.co.uk> writes
>> The royal court was in Dunfermline in the days of Queen Margaret.
>> What practical advantage would city status confer?
>
>Its about civic pride
Then good luck to them. Fife has taken many recent blows (mining and
Rosyth) but have bounced back. Their economy looks to be reasonably
healthy and improving and their local councils seem quite dynamic. There
are rumours that the moth-balled Hyundai plant may open soon whilst
Marconi (or whatever they are called nowadays) is at the cutting edge of
technology. If EDI chases away light aircraft, there would be
opportunities for Glenrothes to develop a thriving business. I always
feel, however, that they could push a lot harder on tourism. They will
perhaps learn lessons from Embra's recent developments.
--
rod
fox1
from char...@london.ac.uk (Charles Thompson) contains these words:
> City status that can wait...read this first.
F*ck-Off!
Colin D. Munro
news:pwcn3.4746$V21.1...@nnrp3.clara.net...
I shall not see that one :)
Colin
fox1
from lor...@free4all.co.uk (Big Jim) contains these words:
> Great.
Now P*ss Off!
Ken McCulloch
> In article <379cdf88...@news.free4all.co.uk>, Adrian Tupper
> <mccla...@the-pinnacle.co.uk> writes
>
> >>The royal court was in Dunfermline in the days of Queen Margaret.
> >>What practical advantage would city status confer?
> >>--
> >>rod
> >Change of football team's name?
>
> Dumfermin Afletik to Dumfermin City?
> One disadvantage of city status would be the prospect of having a Lord
> Provost. A cursory glance across the Forth at Eric Milligan should be
> enough to put the kybosh on any notions of city status. :>
Ay well you could really leave poor Eric looking like a small town boy
if you restored the true ancient role of Dunfermline
"The King sits in Dunfermline toun
Drinking the blood - red wine"
Any takers? :-)
--
Ken McCulloch
Edinburgh
fox1
from kena...@mhie0027.u-net.com (Ken McCulloch) contains these words:
> Ay well you could really leave poor Eric looking like a small town boy
> if you restored the true ancient role of Dunfermline
> "The King sits in Dunfermline toun
> Drinking the blood - red wine"
> Any takers? :-)
Eric is more into Red Biddy! You are correct in linking Dunfermerline
with ancient Royalty and I'm sure at least one would have bestowed
'city' status on the ancient capital.
rod
McCulloch <kena...@mhie0027.u-net.com> writes
>"The King sits in Dunfermline toun
>Drinking the blood - red wine"
Sir Patrick Spens?
--
rod
fox1
>> coming soon! ........... free.uk.talk.fife
>I shall not see that one :)
>Colin
Freeserve are not all they are cracked up to be then. :-(
Ken McCulloch
Give that man a free passage to Noroway, to Noroway,
to Noroway oe'r the faem.
He will need a skeely skipper,but.
--
Ken McCulloch
Edinburgh
James Kerr
<edin...@irport.zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>Dunfermerline's bid to be officially declared a city has hit a hitch
>after Government officials told campaigners they must produce a Royal
>Charter proving it has a right to claim city status!
>
Edinburgh isn't a city either.
>Wasn't Dunfermerline the 'old' Scottish Capital before Edinburgh?
>
Yes.
--
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
James Kerr (DJ X-Plicit) Fife, Scotland
"It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice"
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Craig Cockburn
fox1 <fo...@freeuk.com>
>
>>Dunfermerline's bid to be officially declared a city has hit a hitch
>>after Government officials told campaigners they must produce a Royal
>>Charter proving it has a right to claim city status!
>
>
>coming soon! ........... free.uk.talk.fife
>
>
See scot.newsgroups.discuss
If you have problems getting this newly created group, please send an e-
mail to
comm...@scot.news-admin.org
see also
http://www.scot.news-admin.org/
--
Craig Cockburn ("coburn"), soc.culture.scottish FAQ author.
Find it at http://www.scot.demon.co.uk or http://scotland.home-page.org
Port na Banrighinn, Alba. (Queensferry, Scotland) PGP key available.
Sgri\obh thugam 'sa Gha\idhlig ma 'se do thoil e.
fox1
from james...@scotland-2000.freeserve.co.uk (James Kerr)
contains these words:
> Edinburgh isn't a city either.
Neither is Glasgow! The only City that can produce its Royal Charter
credentials is Dundee.;-)
Both Dunfermerline and Edinburgh have Royal Connections and their Royal
Charters are probably locked away in some dusty vault somewhere.
Glasgow is/was an industrial city with no Royal Connections other than
their own 'royal' family - The Old Firm.>};-)
Craig Cockburn
fox1 <edin...@irport.zetnet.co.uk>
>The message <37a3308c...@news.freeserve.net>
> from james...@scotland-2000.freeserve.co.uk (James Kerr)
>contains these words:
>
>
>> Edinburgh isn't a city either.
>
>Neither is Glasgow! The only City that can produce its Royal Charter
>credentials is Dundee.;-)
>
>Both Dunfermerline and Edinburgh have Royal Connections and their Royal
>Charters are probably locked away in some dusty vault somewhere.
>
Dunblane also claims to be one
fox1
from Craig Cockburn <cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> contains these words:
> Does anyone have a definitive list of Scottish cities?
> Dunblane also claims to be one
The recent contenders are Dunfermerline, Paisley and Inverness.
fox1
to explore the possibilities of joining Aberdeen, Dundee and Edinburgh as
East Coast cities. Glasgow it seems is the only
'city' on the West coast with Paisley as a possible candidate.
Paisley wish to rename Glasgow Airport to Paisley William Wallace
International Airport and Glasgow will try to thwart Paisley's
ambitions on this issue alone - even though the airport is in Paisley!
Nemesis 2000
fox1 wrote in message ...
Niall Tracey
: Does anyone have a definitive list of Scottish cities?
: Dunblane also claims to be one
Under the definition of 'cathedral cities', so me mammy tells me.
--
NT As long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any
\ \/ /conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for
\ / glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for
/ \ freedom -- for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with
/ /\ \life itself. -- Arbroath, 1320
Craig Cockburn
Tracey <nia...@dai.ed.ac.uk>
>Craig Cockburn (cr...@scot.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>
>: Does anyone have a definitive list of Scottish cities?
>: Dunblane also claims to be one
>
>Under the definition of 'cathedral cities', so me mammy tells me.
>
with having a cathedral (or a university, the other oft-cited
definition)
Connor Macleod
City. This is Because Cities were originally
formed at the hearts of the Catholic See's (sp?)
In every Catholic See there had to be a city
marked as a city by the Cathedral.
When hendry the eighth broke away from the catholic
church to the anglican. They kept this manner of
forming cities at the heart of each of the see's
and cathedrals in the same place so dunblane stayed
a city because it had the cathedral whilst Stirling
(The captital of the time) did not, had Royal charter
been involved at that time then stirling would have
most certainly become a city. Eventualy it was decided
that the church should not have rule over this sort of
thing and it passed to government to do so. ormore
specificly Royal Charter.
How ever in most other countries a cathedral is all that is
required to guarantee City status. And this is unlikely to
be changed in this country as no cathedral can be built out
of the heart of the see and all of the sees in britain
already have cathedrals.
regards,
Connor
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
fox1
from nia...@dai.ed.ac.uk (Niall Tracey) contains these words:
> Under the definition of 'cathedral cities', so me mammy tells me.
An English defination?
R.H.W.Moncreiff
http://www.tulbol.demon.co.uk/dunfermline/annals1.htm
contains over 12 refs to Dunfermline City and 39 refs to Charters, of
which 5 refer to the burgh.
--
R.H.W.Moncreiff
Allan-John Marsh
>
> Ann an sgriobhainn, <7o4m7k$kja$1...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>, sgriobh Niall
> Tracey <nia...@dai.ed.ac.uk>
> >Craig Cockburn (cr...@scot.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> >
> >: Does anyone have a definitive list of Scottish cities?
> >: Dunblane also claims to be one
> >
> >
> with having a cathedral (or a university, the other oft-cited
> definition)
I think you're very much mistaken there sorry.
fox1
from "R.H.W.Moncreiff" <monc...@tulbol.demon.co.uk> contains these words:
> The web site
> http://www.tulbol.demon.co.uk/dunfermline/annals1.htm
> contains over 12 refs to Dunfermline City and 39 refs to Charters, of
> which 5 refer to the burgh.
Very interesting! I hope Dunfermline stick to their guns and go for
it. Neighbouring Kirkcaldy should pitch a claim as well.:-)
*free.uk.talk.fife and free.uk.scotland.local-radio newsgroups will be
available soon. Ask your ISP's for access*
Is Kingdom FM the only independent local radio station in Scotland.?
Craig Cockburn
Macleod <the_ga...@bigfoot.com>
>Any Place with a cathedral is Technically a
>City. This is Because Cities were originally
>formed at the hearts of the Catholic See's (sp?)
>In every Catholic See there had to be a city
>marked as a city by the Cathedral.
>When hendry the eighth broke away from the catholic
>church to the anglican. They kept this manner of
>forming cities at the heart of each of the see's
>and cathedrals in the same place so dunblane stayed
>a city because it had the cathedral whilst Stirling
>(The captital of the time) did not,
Since when was Henry the VIII King of Stirling, Dunblane or Scotland?
Craig Cockburn
Malcolm Ogilvie
<day....@xtra.co.nz> writes
>Craig Cockburn wrote:
>>
>> Ann an sgriobhainn, <7o4m7k$kja$1...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>, sgriobh Niall
>> Tracey <nia...@dai.ed.ac.uk>
>> >Craig Cockburn (cr...@scot.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>> >
>> >: Does anyone have a definitive list of Scottish cities?
>> >: Dunblane also claims to be one
>> >
>> >Under the definition of 'cathedral cities', so me mammy tells me.
>> >
>> A city is a city because it has a Royal Charter and is nothing to do
>> with having a cathedral (or a university, the other oft-cited
>> definition)
>
>I think you're very much mistaken there sorry.
We've had this discussion before, last year sometime. It is a confusing
subject with different definitions applying in different countries.
However, as far as the UK in concerned, a city is a town which has had
the title 'city' conferred on it by the crown. Although this has
traditionally been towns with cathedrals and more especially those that
are the seat of a bishop, that is not a sine qua non, nor is the
existence of a university. There are plenty of towns with cathedrals and
with universities.
So, Craig is right, and you're very much mistaken there, sorry.
--
Malcolm
Malcolm Ogilvie
<the_ga...@bigfoot.com> writes
>Any Place with a cathedral is Technically a
>City.
Wrong.
>This is Because Cities were originally
>formed at the hearts of the Catholic See's (sp?)
>In every Catholic See there had to be a city
>marked as a city by the Cathedral.
>When hendry the eighth broke away from the catholic
>church to the anglican. They kept this manner of
>forming cities at the heart of each of the see's
>and cathedrals in the same place so dunblane stayed
>a city because it had the cathedral whilst Stirling
>(The captital of the time) did not, had Royal charter
>been involved at that time then stirling would have
>most certainly become a city.
If you would explain what powers Henry 8th had over Scotland I might be
more inclined to believe you.
> Eventualy it was decided
>that the church should not have rule over this sort of
>thing and it passed to government to do so. ormore
>specificly Royal Charter.
>How ever in most other countries a cathedral is all that is
>required to guarantee City status. And this is unlikely to
>be changed in this country as no cathedral can be built out
>of the heart of the see and all of the sees in britain
>already have cathedrals.
>
So where's the cathedral *city* for the bishopric of Argyll and the
Isles? The RC cathedral is in Oban, but Oban is not a city.
--
Malcolm
Craig Cockburn
fox1 <edin...@irport.zetnet.co.uk>
>
>Is Kingdom FM the only independent local radio station in Scotland.?
>
Allan-John Marsh
>
> --
> Malcolm
Interesting to see how you've gone and turned a bit nasty in that last
line. Well, I wasn't a part of that discussion last year, and a
cathedral makes a town a city - so raspberries.
Allan-John Marsh
>
> --
> Malcolm
And I wasn't taking the discussion outside of the UK either.
Wellington
<day....@xtra.co.nz> writes
>> So, Craig is right, and you're very much mistaken there, sorry.
>>
>> --
>> Malcolm
>
>line. Well, I wasn't a part of that discussion last year, and a
>cathedral makes a town a city - so raspberries.
Blackburn in Lancashire has a cathedral (with a bricked up east end) but
is not a city. Hence the local football team is called 'Rovers' and not
'City'. From this I deduce Blackburn is a rover.
--
Wellington
Malcolm Ogilvie
<day....@xtra.co.nz> writes
>> So, Craig is right, and you're very much mistaken there, sorry.
>>
>> --
>> Malcolm
>
>Interesting to see how you've gone and turned a bit nasty in that last
>line. Well, I wasn't a part of that discussion last year, and a
>cathedral makes a town a city - so raspberries.
Far from turning "a bit nasty", I used the *exact* words which you used
in your response to Craig and, because you have snipped them, I quote
them below just to remind you.
*********************************************************
In article <37A67B...@xtra.co.nz>, Allan-John Marsh
<day....@xtra.co.nz> writes
>Craig Cockburn wrote:
>> A city is a city because it has a Royal Charter and is nothing to do
>> with having a cathedral (or a university, the other oft-cited
>> definition)
>
>I think you're very much mistaken there sorry.
*********************************************************
And whether or not you were part of the discussion last year, a
cathedral does NOT make a town a city - so raspberries to you too!
Both Inverness and Oban have cathedrals, yet neither are cities.
I think you're again very much mistaken there, sorry.
--
Malcolm
fox1
from Craig Cockburn <cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> contains these words:
> fox1 <edin...@irport.zetnet.co.uk>
> >
> >Is Kingdom FM the only independent local radio station in Scotland.?
> >
> What about Heartland FM?
Where is that based Craig?
Allan McVie
village.
Allan McVie
fox1
from Allan McVie <am...@udcf.gla.ac.uk> contains these words:
> I believe Milport also has a cathedral an it is little more than a
> village.
And its up for sale! Millport not the cathedral. Nearby Largs is bigger
and you have Saltcoats and Ardrossan. Even Ayr?
Craig Cockburn
fox1 <edin...@irport.zetnet.co.uk>
long after it set up. They may have expanded, thanks to their BBC2 fame!
David Thorpe
Surely a city is a town with a cathedral and a football team?
David.
Connor Macleod
>If you would explain what powers Henry 8th had over
>Scotland I might be more inclined to believe you.
none whatsoever, but it was his breaking away from
the catholic church, yet keeping the Seats of the
bishops and thusly the cities in the same place.
that influenced the same to happen in scotland.
>> How ever in most other countries a cathedral is all
>>that is required to guarantee City status. And this is
>>unlikely to be changed in this country as no cathedral can
>>be built out of the heart of the see and all of the sees
>>in britain
>>already have cathedrals.
>So where's the cathedral *city* for the bishopric of Argyll
>and the Isles? The RC cathedral is in Oban, but Oban is
>not a city.
Ok, I now accept that there are some exceptions. However the
reason is that the seats may have been changed but since the
Royal Charter now extended to Presbyterian Cathedrals not RC
ones the city status stayed with the original city.
With the specific case of Argyll and the Isles AFIK the
original seat was at Iona however as an abbey and not a
cahtedral and with no town either there never was a city.
regards,
Connor
-- Malcolm
Alan Smaill
> >If you would explain what powers Henry 8th had over
> >Scotland I might be more inclined to believe you.
>
> none whatsoever, but it was his breaking away from
> the catholic church, yet keeping the Seats of the
> bishops and thusly the cities in the same place.
> that influenced the same to happen in scotland.
It was under the Stuarts that Edinburgh first had a cathedral.
So seats of bishops did not stay the same in Scotland.
> >> How ever in most other countries a cathedral is all
> >>that is required to guarantee City status. And this is
> >>unlikely to be changed in this country as no cathedral can
> >>be built out of the heart of the see and all of the sees
> >>in britain
> >>already have cathedrals.
So, let's have a new one -- I presume that's what happened
in Edinburgh.
> >So where's the cathedral *city* for the bishopric of Argyll
> >and the Isles? The RC cathedral is in Oban, but Oban is
> >not a city.
>
> Ok, I now accept that there are some exceptions. However the
> reason is that the seats may have been changed but since the
> Royal Charter now extended to Presbyterian Cathedrals not RC
> ones the city status stayed with the original city.
"Presbyterian Cathedrals" is something of a misnomer ...
> With the specific case of Argyll and the Isles AFIK the
> original seat was at Iona however as an abbey and not a
> cahtedral and with no town either there never was a city.
>
> regards,
>
> Connor
> -- Malcolm
>
>
>
> * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
> The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
--
Alan Smaill, email: A.Sm...@ed.ac.uk
Division of Informatics tel: 44-131-650-2710
Edinburgh University.
Alan Smaill
to clarify my post ...
Alan Smaill <sma...@dai.ed.ac.uk> writes:
> It was under the Stuarts that Edinburgh first had a cathedral.
> So seats of bishops did not stay the same in Scotland.
This was in 17th century, post Reformation.
R.H.W.Moncreiff
A history of Dunfermline can be found at
http://www.tulbol.demon.co.uk/dunfermline/annals1.htm
it includes transcripts of all the major Dunfermline charters.
R.H.W.Moncreiff
Charles Ellson
day....@xtra.co.nz "Allan-John Marsh" writes:
> Craig Cockburn wrote:
> >
> > Ann an sgriobhainn, <7o4m7k$kja$1...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>, sgriobh Niall
> > Tracey <nia...@dai.ed.ac.uk>
> > >Craig Cockburn (cr...@scot.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> > >
> > >: Does anyone have a definitive list of Scottish cities?
> > >: Dunblane also claims to be one
> > >
> > >Under the definition of 'cathedral cities', so me mammy tells me.
> > >
> > A city is a city because it has a Royal Charter and is nothing to do
> > with having a cathedral (or a university, the other oft-cited
> > definition)
>
> I think you're very much mistaken there sorry.
>
The subject has been done to death elsewhere. In the UK a town becomes a
city when it receives a Royal Charter making it one; there are a number of
towns with cathedrals which are not cities.
--
_______
+---------------------------------------------------+ |\\ //|
| Charles Ellson:E-mail charlesATellson.demon.co.uk | | \\ // |
+---------------------------------------------------+ | > < |
| // \\ |
Alba gu brath |//___\\|
Allan-John Marsh
> >I think you're very much mistaken there sorry.
>
> reference?
A cathedral does make a town a city.
Allan-John Marsh
>
> In article <37A6C1...@xtra.co.nz>, Allan-John Marsh
> <day....@xtra.co.nz> writes
> >> So, Craig is right, and you're very much mistaken there, sorry.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Malcolm
> >
> >Interesting to see how you've gone and turned a bit nasty in that last
> >line. Well, I wasn't a part of that discussion last year, and a
> >cathedral makes a town a city - so raspberries.
>
> is not a city. Hence the local football team is called 'Rovers' and not
> 'City'. From this I deduce Blackburn is a rover.
>
> --
> Wellington
well well well
Allan-John Marsh
>
> In article <37A6C1...@xtra.co.nz>, Allan-John Marsh
> <day....@xtra.co.nz> writes
> >> So, Craig is right, and you're very much mistaken there, sorry.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Malcolm
> >
> >Interesting to see how you've gone and turned a bit nasty in that last
> >line. Well, I wasn't a part of that discussion last year, and a
> >cathedral makes a town a city - so raspberries.
>
> in your response to Craig and, because you have snipped them, I quote
> them below just to remind you.
I know what I wrote you tit. However, when I say something in plain
comment that you repeat using "the *exact* words" against me, it's not
clever, but is rude and is nasty. To quote is for proof, but to throw a
reply back in ones face is just something people do to feel big in the
effort of belittling somebody else. I won't bother thus to ask why you
did it as i've just got my answer.
Craig Cockburn
Marsh <day....@xtra.co.nz>
No reference then, you just made it up.
fox1
from Craig Cockburn <cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> contains these words:
In reply to this:
> >> What about Heartland FM?
> >
> >Where is that based Craig?
> >
> Pitlochry, in the ice rink building I believe. I visited the station not
> long after it set up. They may have expanded, thanks to their BBC2 fame!
I wonder if we can get the 'signal' here? What are the freq's?
Malcolm Ogilvie
<the_ga...@bigfoot.com> writes
>
>>So where's the cathedral *city* for the bishopric of Argyll
>>and the Isles? The RC cathedral is in Oban, but Oban is
>>not a city.
>
>Ok, I now accept that there are some exceptions. However the
>reason is that the seats may have been changed but since the
>Royal Charter now extended to Presbyterian Cathedrals not RC
>ones the city status stayed with the original city.
I don't think I've ever heard of a "Presbyterian Cathedral". Perhaps
you could point me at one.
>With the specific case of Argyll and the Isles AFIK the
>original seat was at Iona however as an abbey and not a
>cahtedral and with no town either there never was a city.
>
Well that's interesting and plausible.
So what's your excuse for Inverness? :-)
--
Malcolm
Malcolm Ogilvie
<day....@xtra.co.nz> writes
>Craig Cockburn wrote:
>
>> >I think you're very much mistaken there sorry.
>>
>> reference?
>
>A cathedral does make a town a city.
Just repeating an error does not make it right.
Please don't lower the tone of the discussion to "Yes it is" "No it
isn't" levels unless this is all you can manage.
--
Malcolm
Malcolm Ogilvie
<day....@xtra.co.nz> writes
>Malcolm Ogilvie wrote:
>>
>> In article <37A6C1...@xtra.co.nz>, Allan-John Marsh
>> <day....@xtra.co.nz> writes
>> >> So, Craig is right, and you're very much mistaken there, sorry.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Malcolm
>> >
>> >Interesting to see how you've gone and turned a bit nasty in that last
>> >line. Well, I wasn't a part of that discussion last year, and a
>> >cathedral makes a town a city - so raspberries.
>>
>> Far from turning "a bit nasty", I used the *exact* words which you used
>> in your response to Craig and, because you have snipped them, I quote
>> them below just to remind you.
>
>I know what I wrote you tit. However, when I say something in plain
>comment that you repeat using "the *exact* words" against me, it's not
>clever, but is rude and is nasty. To quote is for proof, but to throw a
>reply back in ones face is just something people do to feel big in the
>effort of belittling somebody else. I won't bother thus to ask why you
>did it as i've just got my answer.
So when you said it for the first time it was polite and pleasant, but
when I said it back to you it was rude and nasty? What strange logic you
employ.
And no, I didn't throw it back in your face in an effort to belittle you
but in order to point out that what you said was wrong. It remains wrong
and I note that you are completely failing here, and elsewhere in the
thread, to come up with a shred of proof for your repeated statement
that a town with a cathedral is a city. Instead, you are resorting to
personal abuse and petty name calling, a sure sign of a lost argument -
you can see and hear the same sort of intellectual certainty in any
playground.
--
Malcolm
Wellington
<day....@xtra.co.nz> writes
>Wellington wrote:
>>
>>
>> Blackburn in Lancashire has a cathedral (with a bricked up east end) but
>> is not a city. Hence the local football team is called 'Rovers' and not
>> 'City'. From this I deduce Blackburn is a rover.
>>
>> --
>> Wellington
>
>well well well
You're thinking of Motherwell, which has neither cathedral nor charter,
so must be something else entirely.
--
Wellington
Allan-John Marsh
>
> Ann an sgriobhainn, <37A75D...@xtra.co.nz>, sgriobh Allan-John
> Marsh <day....@xtra.co.nz>
> >
> >> >I think you're very much mistaken there sorry.
> >>
> >> reference?
> >
> >A cathedral does make a town a city.
>
If that gets you off. I can't reference where I learnt my name either
but I know it's Allan-John.
Allan-John Marsh
>
> In article <37A75E...@xtra.co.nz>, Allan-John Marsh
> <day....@xtra.co.nz> writes
> >Malcolm Ogilvie wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <37A6C1...@xtra.co.nz>, Allan-John Marsh
> >> <day....@xtra.co.nz> writes
Whatever.
fox1
from Wellington <cel...@mwade.demon.co.uk> contains these words:
> You're thinking of Motherwell, which has neither cathedral nor charter,
> so must be something else entirely.
Must be Buffoons! John Reid perhaps?>};-)
Simon Brooke
> In article <9337164...@www.remarq.com>, Connor Macleod
> <the_ga...@bigfoot.com> writes
> >
> >>So where's the cathedral *city* for the bishopric of Argyll
> >>and the Isles? The RC cathedral is in Oban, but Oban is
> >>not a city.
> >
> >Ok, I now accept that there are some exceptions. However the
> >reason is that the seats may have been changed but since the
> >Royal Charter now extended to Presbyterian Cathedrals not RC
> >ones the city status stayed with the original city.
>
> I don't think I've ever heard of a "Presbyterian Cathedral". Perhaps
> you could point me at one.
St Giles, in the High Street in Edinburgh, is often referred to as a
cathedral; and is undoubtedly presbyterian.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GP/CS s++: a+ C+++ ULBVCS*++++$ L+++ P--- E+>++ W+++ N++ K w--(---)
M- !d- PS++ PE-- Y+ PGP !t 5? X+ !R b++ !DI D G- e++ h*(-) r++ y+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Simon Brooke
> Surely a city is a town with a cathedral and a football team?
No, no, a city is a town with *two* football teams, one of them called
.. United :-)
Niall Tracey
: In article <9337164...@www.remarq.com>, Connor Macleod
: <the_ga...@bigfoot.com> writes
: >
: >>So where's the cathedral *city* for the bishopric of Argyll
: >>and the Isles? The RC cathedral is in Oban, but Oban is
: >>not a city.
: >
: >Ok, I now accept that there are some exceptions. However the
: >reason is that the seats may have been changed but since the
: >Royal Charter now extended to Presbyterian Cathedrals not RC
: >ones the city status stayed with the original city.
: I don't think I've ever heard of a "Presbyterian Cathedral". Perhaps
: you could point me at one.
St Giles cathedral, High St, Edinburgh.
Not a cathedral _per_se_, but it was taken by the protestants
during the reformation and they just kept the name "St. Giles'
Cathedral" - probably as one in the eye for the Catholics...
AFAIK it's the only Kirk property called a 'catheral'.
--
NT As long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any
\ \/ /conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for
\ / glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for
/ \ freedom -- for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with
/ /\ \life itself. -- Arbroath, 1320
Craig Cockburn
fox1 <edin...@irport.zetnet.co.uk>
Freq Des Station Pol RDS PI Power Service Area
Transmitter Location NG Ref Comments
97.5 SL Heartland FM V no rds 0.115 Pitlochry & Aberfeldy
Faire Mhor NN993583 Mono
Try a search for
"BRITISH DX CLUB Broadcast Stations in the British Isles" for more info
Malcolm Ogilvie
<nia...@dai.ed.ac.uk> writes
>Malcolm Ogilvie (mal...@ogilvie.org) wrote:
>: In article <9337164...@www.remarq.com>, Connor Macleod
>: <the_ga...@bigfoot.com> writes
>: >
>: >>So where's the cathedral *city* for the bishopric of Argyll
>: >>and the Isles? The RC cathedral is in Oban, but Oban is
>: >>not a city.
>: >
>: >Ok, I now accept that there are some exceptions. However the
>: >reason is that the seats may have been changed but since the
>: >Royal Charter now extended to Presbyterian Cathedrals not RC
>: >ones the city status stayed with the original city.
>
>: I don't think I've ever heard of a "Presbyterian Cathedral". Perhaps
>: you could point me at one.
>
>St Giles cathedral, High St, Edinburgh.
>
>Not a cathedral _per_se_, but it was taken by the protestants
>during the reformation and they just kept the name "St. Giles'
>Cathedral" - probably as one in the eye for the Catholics...
>
>AFAIK it's the only Kirk property called a 'catheral'.
>
--
Malcolm
Alan Hardie
wrote:
>"David Thorpe" <m...@mearnscraft.force9.co.uk> writes:
>
>> Surely a city is a town with a cathedral and a football team?
>
>No, no, a city is a town with *two* football teams, one of them called
>.. United :-)
The other called "City".
==========================================
Alan Hardie
<<remove *x* from email address to reply>>
==========================================
Connor Macleod
And it Actually is a cathedral.
Although I believe it may have
originally been R.C and changed
hands at some point.
regards,
Connor
Sharon L. Krossa
> Ann an sgriobhainn, <7o4m7k$kja$1...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>, sgriobh Niall
> Tracey <nia...@dai.ed.ac.uk>
> >Craig Cockburn (cr...@scot.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> >
> >: Does anyone have a definitive list of Scottish cities?
> >: Dunblane also claims to be one
> >
> >Under the definition of 'cathedral cities', so me mammy tells me.
> >
> A city is a city because it has a Royal Charter and is nothing to do
> with having a cathedral (or a university, the other oft-cited
> definition)
Okay, what exactly do you mean by being "a city because it has a Royal
Charter" -- what kind of royal charter? Is/was there a special charter
that turns/turned places into cities? (I am assuming you do not mean a
charter that made a place a burgh, because such charters don't make
cities, they make burghs, and a royal one makes a Royal burgh, which, as
I am sure you know but I am pretty sure not all our readers know, is not
the same thing as a city at all.) Anyway, if so, when did this custom
start and/or when did it start in Scotland. Is it still practiced? Any
idea as to why it was/is done?
Sharon Krossa, who has long been curious about British and Scottish
definitions of "city"
Sharon L. Krossa
> Malcolm Ogilvie (mal...@ogilvie.org) wrote:
> : In article <9337164...@www.remarq.com>, Connor Macleod
> : <the_ga...@bigfoot.com> writes
> : >
> : >>So where's the cathedral *city* for the bishopric of Argyll
> : >>and the Isles? The RC cathedral is in Oban, but Oban is
> : >>not a city.
> : >
> : >Ok, I now accept that there are some exceptions. However the
> : >reason is that the seats may have been changed but since the
> : >Royal Charter now extended to Presbyterian Cathedrals not RC
> : >ones the city status stayed with the original city.
>
> : I don't think I've ever heard of a "Presbyterian Cathedral". Perhaps
> : you could point me at one.
>
> St Giles cathedral, High St, Edinburgh.
>
> Not a cathedral _per_se_, but it was taken by the protestants
> during the reformation and they just kept the name "St. Giles'
> Cathedral" - probably as one in the eye for the Catholics...
>
> AFAIK it's the only Kirk property called a 'catheral'.
Saint Machar's in Old Aberdeen is, I believe, called cathedral and it is
also (currently) Church of Scotland. My impression is that once a
cathedral, always a cathedral, so any R.C. cathedral that got taken over
by the Protestants stayed a cathedral (at least in name), even if that
flavour of Protestant didn't go in for bishops and whatnot.
Sharon Krossa
fox1
from Craig Cockburn <cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> contains these words:
In reply to this:
> >I wonder if we can get the 'signal' here? What are the freq's?
> >
> this may help
> Freq Des Station Pol RDS PI Power Service Area
> Transmitter Location NG Ref Comments
> 97.5 SL Heartland FM V no rds 0.115 Pitlochry & Aberfeldy
> Faire Mhor NN993583 Mono
No joy on 97.5 at North Berwick and I have line of sight across the
Forth to Ben Loyal. :-(
Craig Cockburn
2.stanford.edu>, sgriobh Sharon L. Krossa <skr...@stanford.edu>
>Okay, what exactly do you mean by being "a city because it has a Royal
>Charter" -- what kind of royal charter? Is/was there a special charter
>that turns/turned places into cities? (I am assuming you do not mean a
>charter that made a place a burgh, because such charters don't make
>cities, they make burghs, and a royal one makes a Royal burgh, which, as
>I am sure you know but I am pretty sure not all our readers know, is not
>the same thing as a city at all.)
Yes exactly, the sign which until a few years ago which welcomed people
to Dunblane stated it was a city and burgh (ie not a royal burgh).
I don't have the reference to hand at the moment, but the following may
be of use if anyone wants to chase this up
http://www.techtrac.demon.co.uk/ (Dunblane info)
http://www.ebig.com/
Encyclopedia Britannica
The Encyclopaedia of Scotland
ISBN 0002550822
Wellington
<a*x*har...@clara.co.uk> writes
>On 04 Aug 1999 11:34:20 +0100, Simon Brooke <si...@jasmine.org.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>"David Thorpe" <m...@mearnscraft.force9.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>> Surely a city is a town with a cathedral and a football team?
>>
>>No, no, a city is a town with *two* football teams, one of them called
>>.. United :-)
>
>The other called "City".
>
--
Wellington
Niall Tracey
: Great.
: Feel Free to Contact the Group.
Thank you. I will.
free4all, that is...
Thomson McFarlane
Craig Cockburn <cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> A city is a city because it has a Royal Charter and is
nothing to do
> with having a cathedral (or a university, the other
oft-cited
> definition)
I was told recently, by a professional geographer, that the
EU definition of a city, has to do with population size and
density.
The two cities she and I live in have quite a rivalry, and
the one I live in was defined as a town, while hers was
defined a city. My city has a larger population, but not the
necessary concentration. (Both have cathedrals.)
This is of course the EU definition, and bears, probably, no
relation on how each country defines its' cities.
Thomson
--
------------------------------------------------------------
----------
"Oh wad some power the giftie gie us
To see oursel's as others see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
And foolish notion." Rabbie Burns
Thomson McFarlane
thomson....@valmet.com
tm...@sci.fi
All my opinions are my own, wholly my own and nothing but my
own.
------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Simon Brooke
> > St Giles cathedral, High St, Edinburgh.
> >
> > AFAIK it's the only Kirk property called a 'catheral'.
>
> Saint Machar's in Old Aberdeen is, I believe, called cathedral and it is
> also (currently) Church of Scotland. My impression is that once a
> cathedral, always a cathedral, so any R.C. cathedral that got taken over
> by the Protestants stayed a cathedral (at least in name), even if that
> flavour of Protestant didn't go in for bishops and whatnot.
Come to think of it I'm fairly sure St Magnus' in Kirkwall is also
known as a cathedral.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon
Anagram: I'm soon broke.
Alan Smaill
> Malcolm Ogilvie <mal...@ogilvie.org> writes:
>
> > In article <9337164...@www.remarq.com>, Connor Macleod
> > <the_ga...@bigfoot.com> writes
> > >
> > >>So where's the cathedral *city* for the bishopric of Argyll
> > >>and the Isles? The RC cathedral is in Oban, but Oban is
> > >>not a city.
> > >
> > >Ok, I now accept that there are some exceptions. However the
> > >reason is that the seats may have been changed but since the
> > >Royal Charter now extended to Presbyterian Cathedrals not RC
> > >ones the city status stayed with the original city.
> >
> > I don't think I've ever heard of a "Presbyterian Cathedral". Perhaps
> > you could point me at one.
>
> St Giles, in the High Street in Edinburgh, is often referred to as a
> cathedral;
incorrectly ....
> and is undoubtedly presbyterian.
>
> --
> si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon
Alan Smaill, email: A.Sm...@ed.ac.uk
Division of Informatics tel: 44-131-650-2710
Edinburgh University.
Alan Smaill
> Malcolm Ogilvie (mal...@ogilvie.org) wrote:
> : In article <9337164...@www.remarq.com>, Connor Macleod
> : <the_ga...@bigfoot.com> writes
> : >
> : >>So where's the cathedral *city* for the bishopric of Argyll
> : >>and the Isles? The RC cathedral is in Oban, but Oban is
> : >>not a city.
> : >
> : >Ok, I now accept that there are some exceptions. However the
> : >reason is that the seats may have been changed but since the
> : >Royal Charter now extended to Presbyterian Cathedrals not RC
> : >ones the city status stayed with the original city.
>
> : I don't think I've ever heard of a "Presbyterian Cathedral". Perhaps
> : you could point me at one.
>
> St Giles cathedral, High St, Edinburgh.
>
> Not a cathedral _per_se_, but it was taken by the protestants
> during the reformation and they just kept the name "St. Giles'
> Cathedral" - probably as one in the eye for the Catholics...
No, it wasn't a cathedral before the reformation, there being
no bishop in Edinburgh.
> AFAIK it's the only Kirk property called a 'catheral'.
>
Jackie Gribbon
or more commonly just "Glasgow Cathedral". It is presbyterian, but like the
others was originally the seat of a catholic bishop.
Perhaps someone with more knowledge of the workings of the Church of
Scotland can explain the details, but my understanding is that 'a kirk is a
kirk' and there is no hierarchy. A cathedral is just a big kirk. The
management position which a bishop holds in other churches is held by the
presbytery, which is a committee of elders and ministers from all the local
kirks in the area. Whether or not every presbytery has an associated
cathedral, I don't know.
As for St Giles, it's most commonly known as "The High Kirk of Edinburgh".
Perhaps supporting the 'big kirk' idea.
I think in the UK that city status is usually conferred by royal charter,
whatever the historical relevance of having a cathedral may have been. I
know there was a discussion a couple of years ago about Paisley receiving
such a charter, though to my knowledge this hasn't yet happened.
It's obviously very complicated, as in England they even have a couple of
examples where the same conurbation has two cities - i.e. London and
Westminster, Manchester and Salford.
Jackie
David Thorpe
Malcolm Ogilvie wrote in message ...
>So where's the cathedral *city* for the bishopric of Argyll and the
>Isles? The RC cathedral is in Oban, but Oban is not a city.
>
Oban's probably too new - it seems that most of the burghs that claim to be
cathedral cities had established bishoprics well before the reformation.
Oban, on the other hand, was little more than a hamlet at the end of the
18th century and certainly didn't have a cathedral then. Incidentally, it's
now got two as there's also an episcopal cathedral, quite possibly the only
end-of-terrace cathedral in the country.
So far as Scotland is concerned, I don't think cities were created by royal
charter as for centuries the burghs were far and away the most important
element of local government in Scotland. If they attracted royal favour
they were given charters as royal burghs, not cities. The Royal Burghs had
extremely advantageous trading privileges, and formed both the burgess
estate in Parliament and the very influential Convention of Royal Burghs.
No royal burghs were created post 1707, but as a result of the 19th century
Reform Acts a new category of Parliamentary Burgh was created and they were
then admitted into the Convention of Royal Burghs, as were the subsequent
and less important Police Burghs. By 1972 the Convention of Royal Burghs
included 68 Royal Burghs, 14 Parliamentary Burghs, and 119 Police Burghs.
Nine of the royal burghs had populations less than 1000.
In straightforward local government terms, the 1929 Local government Act
created three different categories of burgh - cities (of which there were
four), large burghs (19) and small burghs (178). By 1972, according to the
Municipal Year Book of that date, there were six Scottish cities, Edinburgh,
Glasgow, Aberdeen, Dundee, Perth and Elgin. Perth was never an episcopal
see, though it did lay claim to being one of Scotland's former capitals, but
Elgin was of course the cathedral town of the old diocese of Moray. Neither
Perth nor Elgin had the local authority powers given to the other four by
the 1929 Act. Three other burghs, Dunfermline, Brechin and Kirkwall, were
officially using the term city; like Perth, the former has claims to having
been an ancient capital of Scotland and the latter two were pre-Reformation
episcopal sees. Whether any of the other old cathedral towns - St Andrews,
Dunblane, Dornoch, Fortrose and Whithorn - still make any claim to city
status I don't know.
David.
ian.s...@dial.pipex.com
Gribbon" <jackie....@bt.com> :
>St Mungo's in Glasgow is known as a cathedral, either "St Mungo's Cathedral"
>or more commonly just "Glasgow Cathedral". It is presbyterian, but like the
>others was originally the seat of a catholic bishop.
There is also, in Glasgow, a Roman Catholic Cathedral, Saint Andrews,
on the Clydeside.
(as we have two, what does that make us, more than a city ???)
>
<snip>
>
>I think in the UK that city status is usually conferred by royal charter,
>whatever the historical relevance of having a cathedral may have been. I
>know there was a discussion a couple of years ago about Paisley receiving
>such a charter, though to my knowledge this hasn't yet happened.
Paisley has an "Abbey", not a Cathedral.
(Just to complicate the discussion <g>)
AFAIR. Paisley *applied* to be recognised as a city on the basis that it
was bigger than some of the existing ones in Scotland (Perth ?)
A search on Dejanews should find a long thread on this subject
(about 18 months ago ?)
-- IRS
-- http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/ian_stewart
Malcolm Ogilvie
ian.s...@dial.pipex.com writes
>On Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:37:27 +0100, I read these words from "Jackie
>Gribbon" <jackie....@bt.com> :
>
>>St Mungo's in Glasgow is known as a cathedral, either "St Mungo's Cathedral"
>>or more commonly just "Glasgow Cathedral". It is presbyterian, but like the
>>others was originally the seat of a catholic bishop.
>
>There is also, in Glasgow, a Roman Catholic Cathedral, Saint Andrews,
>on the Clydeside.
>(as we have two, what does that make us, more than a city ???)
>>
><snip>
>>
>>I think in the UK that city status is usually conferred by royal charter,
>>whatever the historical relevance of having a cathedral may have been. I
>>know there was a discussion a couple of years ago about Paisley receiving
>>such a charter, though to my knowledge this hasn't yet happened.
>Paisley has an "Abbey", not a Cathedral.
>(Just to complicate the discussion <g>)
>
>AFAIR. Paisley *applied* to be recognised as a city on the basis that it
>was bigger than some of the existing ones in Scotland (Perth ?)
>
Millennium. At least 20 British towns have applied including Inverness,
Ipswich and Milton Keynes, but only one will be selected.
ref: Today programme on R4 this morning. The journalist had it exactly
right by saying that it was nothing to do with having a cathedral and
that the new city will be created by receiving a Royal Charter from the
Queen.
--
Malcolm
David Thorpe
Malcolm Ogilvie wrote in message ...
>ref: Today programme on R4 this morning. The journalist had it exactly
>right by saying that it was nothing to do with having a cathedral and
>that the new city will be created by receiving a Royal Charter from the
>Queen.
>
In modern terms he no doubt had it right. It doesn't however explain why
Perth and Elgin were officially considered to be cities - neither had had a
royal charter, although the latter was the seat of an old episcopal see.
Nor did Brechin have a charter, though it did have a bishop and a cathedral.
(Brechin and Elgin also, of course, have "City" football teams) :-)
Connor Macleod
>>>Cathedral". Perhaps you could point me at one.
>>
>>referred to as a cathedral;
>
>incorrectly ....
>>
>> and is undoubtedly presbyterian.
Why Incorrectly?
In the catholic church, a cathedral is such because
it is the seat of a bishop and thus has a bishop in charge.
In the presbyterian church a cathedral, is usually the
largest church in the area and is the one used (In general)
for any state or General Assembly ceremonies.
Just as the catholic church uses a Bishop in charge, AFAIK
the Presbyterian church has a special position for those in
charge of a cathedral, the name of which escapes me at the
moment. Similarly as the bishop has two or three preists to
service the cathderal as has the presbyterian.
The only real difference is that the leader of the cathedral
does not lead the presbytary as is the case in catholisism.
Sharon L. Krossa
> In article <37ab24c0...@news.dial.pipex.com>,
> ian.s...@dial.pipex.com writes
> >On Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:37:27 +0100, I read these words from "Jackie
> >Gribbon" <jackie....@bt.com> :
> >
> >>St Mungo's in Glasgow is known as a cathedral, either "St Mungo's Cathedral"
> >>or more commonly just "Glasgow Cathedral". It is presbyterian, but like the
> >>others was originally the seat of a catholic bishop.
> >
> >There is also, in Glasgow, a Roman Catholic Cathedral, Saint Andrews,
> >on the Clydeside.
> >(as we have two, what does that make us, more than a city ???)
> >>
> ><snip>
> >>
> >>I think in the UK that city status is usually conferred by royal charter,
> >>whatever the historical relevance of having a cathedral may have been. I
> >>know there was a discussion a couple of years ago about Paisley receiving
> >>such a charter, though to my knowledge this hasn't yet happened.
> >Paisley has an "Abbey", not a Cathedral.
> >(Just to complicate the discussion <g>)
> >
> >AFAIR. Paisley *applied* to be recognised as a city on the basis that it
> >was bigger than some of the existing ones in Scotland (Perth ?)
> >
> Apparently, there's going to be a new city at the start of the new
> Millennium. At least 20 British towns have applied including Inverness,
> Ipswich and Milton Keynes, but only one will be selected.
>
> ref: Today programme on R4 this morning. The journalist had it exactly
> right by saying that it was nothing to do with having a cathedral and
> that the new city will be created by receiving a Royal Charter from the
> Queen.
More accurately, *modernly* becoming a city in Scotland has nothing to
do with having a cathredral. *Historically* having a bishop's seat had
everything to do with being considered a city in Scotland (at least up
until about the time of the Scottish Reformation, give or take, when
size also came into play).
The question is, if already considered a city prior to Union with
England, did these cities lose their city status just because England
had different ideas about what a city was? Can a place be "de-citied"?
If one takes the approach that once a city always a city, then a key
determiner in Scotland of city status is not just having a cathedral,
but having a pre-reformation cathedral (or otherwise being a bishop's
seat). Thus, a modern Roman Catholic or Episcopal cathedral doesn't
count, but a ruined medieval one does.
If one takes the approach that only a royal British (post-union)
city-making charter makes a city, then only those places with such a
charter in Scotland are cities. So far I've only found reference to
Dundee being created a city by charter in 1889. (Source, OED: "In this
sense, the royal burgh of Dundee was also created a 'city' by Royal
Charter in 1889."). So, what are the other Scottish cities by this
interpretation and what are the dates of their city making charters?
(Sources that just claim they are a city won't do -- we need the dates
and statement they were made city by royal charter. And it's got to be a
reasonably reliable source ;-)
If, as I suspect, Dundee was the first Scottish place to be created a
city by this method, does that make Dundee the first Scottish city? (And
if so, don't you agree this rather kills the only by modern royal
charter theory of Scottish city making?)
Sharon Krossa, reminding readers this is not a multiple choice test and
there are undoubtedly other factors to consider (especially in the case
of Edinburgh).
--
Sharon L. Krossa, kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu
Medieval Scotland: http://www.stanford.edu/~skrossa/medievalscotland/
Other names sites: Academy of S. Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/
Medieval Naming Guides - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
Joseph Finlay
89.stanford.edu>, Sharon L. Krossa <kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu> writes
The Concise Oxford Dictionary classes a "city" as a large town created a
city by charter and containing a cathedral. That being said, there are
or were 14 cathedrals in Scotland, only three of which could/can now be
classed as being sited in a city.
The three are as follows :-
Glasgow - Begun in the 12th century and completed in the 15th century,
dedicated to St. Mungo.
Edinburgh - The church of St Giles, was a classed as a cathedral up to
1689
Aberdeen - Built in the 15th century, dedicated to St Mary.
The other eleven are :- Brechin, Dornoch, Dunblane, Elgin, Fortrose,
Iona, Kirkwall, Lismore, St Andrews, Whithorn.
My view is that if it's big enough, then it's a city. By big I mean over
a hundred thousand in population.
--
Joseph Finlay
Charles Ellson
the_ga...@bigfoot.com "Connor Macleod" writes:
<snip>
> Just as the catholic church uses a Bishop in charge, AFAIK
> the Presbyterian church has a special position for those in
> charge of a cathedral, the name of which escapes me at the
> moment.
It's a provost in the Episcopalian Church, but do the CoS and Free
Churches recognise cathedrals as such in anything other than name?
<snip>
--
_______
+---------------------------------------------------+ |\\ //|
| Charles Ellson:E-mail charlesATellson.demon.co.uk | | \\ // |
+---------------------------------------------------+ | > < |
| // \\ |
Alba gu brath |//___\\|
Malcolm Ogilvie
<jos...@jfinl.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <1dw686w.10rcf8a1268k0wN@sunet-s5as05-1-dynamic-
>89.stanford.edu>, Sharon L. Krossa <kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu> writes
Big snip.
>>
>>If, as I suspect, Dundee was the first Scottish place to be created a
>>city by this method, does that make Dundee the first Scottish city? (And
>>if so, don't you agree this rather kills the only by modern royal
>>charter theory of Scottish city making?)
>>
>>Sharon Krossa, reminding readers this is not a multiple choice test and
>>there are undoubtedly other factors to consider (especially in the case
>>of Edinburgh).
>
>The Concise Oxford Dictionary classes a "city" as a large town created a
>city by charter and containing a cathedral.
Well, your COD might say that, but mine (6th ed.1976) is subtly
different, because its definition is:
"Large town: (strictly) town created city by charter, especially as
containing a cathedral."
You might think I'm nit-picking, but the above quote is *not* the same
as your "and containing a cathedral".
The Shorter Oxford (2nd ed 1936) is vaguer:
"In Great Britain and Ireland: Associated with episcopal seats, and
ancient royal burghs, and in recent times conferred by royal authority
on important boroughs, as Birmingham."
> That being said, there are
>or were 14 cathedrals in Scotland, only three of which could/can now be
>classed as being sited in a city.
>
>The three are as follows :-
>
>Glasgow - Begun in the 12th century and completed in the 15th century,
>dedicated to St. Mungo.
>
>Edinburgh - The church of St Giles, was a classed as a cathedral up to
>1689
>
>Aberdeen - Built in the 15th century, dedicated to St Mary.
>
>The other eleven are :- Brechin, Dornoch, Dunblane, Elgin, Fortrose,
>Iona, Kirkwall, Lismore, St Andrews, Whithorn.
>
Umm. Did Lismore Island in Loch Linnhe ever have a cathedral or has
Lismore Cathedral, Co.Waterford, Ireland, crept in here somehow?
In view of the Shorter Oxford quote, it is of interest that Johnston's
Gazeteer of Scotland (1958) describes all the above, except Dunblane
and Iona (and Lismore), as royal burghs. There are many more, of course.
>
>My view is that if it's big enough, then it's a city. By big I mean over
>a hundred thousand in population.
>
Well, it might be your view but it has never been officially defined as
such.
--
Malcolm
Craig Cockburn
Finlay <jos...@jfinl.demon.co.uk>
>
>The Concise Oxford Dictionary classes a "city" as a large town created a
>or were 14 cathedrals in Scotland, only three of which could/can now be
>classed as being sited in a city.
Is this the recently published 10th edition?
Craig Cockburn
89.stanford.edu>, sgriobh Sharon L. Krossa
<kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu>
>
>If one takes the approach that once a city always a city, then a key
>determiner in Scotland of city status is not just having a cathedral,
>but having a pre-reformation cathedral (or otherwise being a bishop's
>seat). Thus, a modern Roman Catholic or Episcopal cathedral doesn't
>count, but a ruined medieval one does.
>
Joseph Finlay
<cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> writes
>Ann an sgriobhainn, <LcFXEDAq...@jfinl.demon.co.uk>, sgriobh Joseph
>Finlay <jos...@jfinl.demon.co.uk>
>>
>>The Concise Oxford Dictionary classes a "city" as a large town created a
>>city by charter and containing a cathedral. That being said, there are
>>or were 14 cathedrals in Scotland, only three of which could/can now be
>>classed as being sited in a city.
>
>Is this the recently published 10th edition?
No, the 9th edition.
By the way, for clarity, in the above paragraph, the last sentence is
mine and not the COD!!
--
Joseph Finlay
Joseph Finlay
<mal...@ogilvie.org> writes
>In article <LcFXEDAq...@jfinl.demon.co.uk>, Joseph Finlay
><jos...@jfinl.demon.co.uk> writes
>>In article <1dw686w.10rcf8a1268k0wN@sunet-s5as05-1-dynamic-
>>89.stanford.edu>, Sharon L. Krossa <kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu> writes
>
>Big snip.
>
>>>
>>>If, as I suspect, Dundee was the first Scottish place to be created a
>>>city by this method, does that make Dundee the first Scottish city? (And
>>>if so, don't you agree this rather kills the only by modern royal
>>>charter theory of Scottish city making?)
>>>
>>>Sharon Krossa, reminding readers this is not a multiple choice test and
>>>there are undoubtedly other factors to consider (especially in the case
>>>of Edinburgh).
>>
>>city by charter and containing a cathedral.
>
>different, because its definition is:
>
>"Large town: (strictly) town created city by charter, especially as
>containing a cathedral."
>
>You might think I'm nit-picking, but the above quote is *not* the same
>as your "and containing a cathedral".
>
>The Shorter Oxford (2nd ed 1936) is vaguer:
>
>"In Great Britain and Ireland: Associated with episcopal seats, and
>ancient royal burghs, and in recent times conferred by royal authority
>on important boroughs, as Birmingham."
>
>>or were 14 cathedrals in Scotland, only three of which could/can now be
>>classed as being sited in a city.
>>
>>
>>Glasgow - Begun in the 12th century and completed in the 15th century,
>>dedicated to St. Mungo.
>>
>>Edinburgh - The church of St Giles, was a classed as a cathedral up to
>>1689
>>
>>Aberdeen - Built in the 15th century, dedicated to St Mary.
>>
>>The other eleven are :- Brechin, Dornoch, Dunblane, Elgin, Fortrose,
>>Iona, Kirkwall, Lismore, St Andrews, Whithorn.
>>
>Umm. Did Lismore Island in Loch Linnhe ever have a cathedral or has
>Lismore Cathedral, Co.Waterford, Ireland, crept in here somehow?
No, Lismore Island it is. The cathedral was founded around 1200 and
dedicated to St Moluaig and was once the centre of the diocese of
Argyll. It measures about 60 feet by 20 feet. Damaged in the
Reformation, it was rebuilt in 1749 and is still in use today as a
parish Kirk.
>
>In view of the Shorter Oxford quote, it is of interest that Johnston's
>Gazeteer of Scotland (1958) describes all the above, except Dunblane
>and Iona (and Lismore), as royal burghs. There are many more, of course.
>>
>>My view is that if it's big enough, then it's a city. By big I mean over
>>a hundred thousand in population.
>>
>Well, it might be your view but it has never been officially defined as
>such.
Well, if there is no official definitive explanation, then mine is as
good as any! :)
--
Joseph Finlay
Simon Brooke
> The Concise Oxford Dictionary classes a "city" as a large town created a
> or were 14 cathedrals in Scotland, only three of which could/can now be
> classed as being sited in a city.
>
> The three are as follows :-
>
> Glasgow - Begun in the 12th century and completed in the 15th century,
> dedicated to St. Mungo.
>
> Edinburgh - The church of St Giles, was a classed as a cathedral up to
> 1689
>
> Aberdeen - Built in the 15th century, dedicated to St Mary.
>
>
> The other eleven are :- Brechin, Dornoch, Dunblane, Elgin, Fortrose,
> Iona, Kirkwall, Lismore, St Andrews, Whithorn.
Whithorn was never a Catherdral, it was an Abbey; the same is I
believe true of Iona, and possibly some of the others. To the medieval
mind an Abbey did not make a City, because an Abbey was considered to
be to some extent withdrawn from the world.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon
Just as defying the law of gravity through building aircraft requires
careful design and a lot of effort, so too does defying laws of
economics. It seems to be a deeply ingrained aspect of humanity to
forever strive to improve things, so unquestioning acceptance of a
free market system seems to me to be unnatural. ;; Charles Bryant
Malcolm Ogilvie
<jos...@jfinl.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <Iem+kfAU...@ogilvie.org>, Malcolm Ogilvie
><mal...@ogilvie.org> writes
>><jos...@jfinl.demon.co.uk> writes
>>>
>>>The other eleven are :- Brechin, Dornoch, Dunblane, Elgin, Fortrose,
>>>Iona, Kirkwall, Lismore, St Andrews, Whithorn.
>>>
>>Lismore Cathedral, Co.Waterford, Ireland, crept in here somehow?
>
>No, Lismore Island it is. The cathedral was founded around 1200 and
>dedicated to St Moluaig and was once the centre of the diocese of
>Argyll. It measures about 60 feet by 20 feet. Damaged in the
>Reformation, it was rebuilt in 1749 and is still in use today as a
>parish Kirk.
>
>>>
>>>My view is that if it's big enough, then it's a city. By big I mean over
>>>a hundred thousand in population.
>>>
>>Well, it might be your view but it has never been officially defined as
>>such.
>
>Well, if there is no official definitive explanation, then mine is as
>good as any! :)
>
Or as bad :-)
--
Malcolm
Joseph Finlay
<si...@jasmine.org.uk> writes
>Joseph Finlay <jos...@jfinl.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>> The Concise Oxford Dictionary classes a "city" as a large town created a
>> city by charter and containing a cathedral. That being said, there are
>> or were 14 cathedrals in Scotland, only three of which could/can now be
>> classed as being sited in a city.
>>
>> The three are as follows :-
>>
>> Glasgow - Begun in the 12th century and completed in the 15th century,
>> dedicated to St. Mungo.
>>
>> Edinburgh - The church of St Giles, was a classed as a cathedral up to
>> 1689
>>
>> Aberdeen - Built in the 15th century, dedicated to St Mary.
>>
>>
>> Iona, Kirkwall, Lismore, St Andrews, Whithorn.
>
>believe true of Iona, and possibly some of the others. To the medieval
>mind an Abbey did not make a City, because an Abbey was considered to
>be to some extent withdrawn from the world.
>
Whithorn is one of the oldest Christian centres in Britain and a place
of pilgrimage until the Reformation. The Priory was built between the
12th and 15th centuries and the church attached to the Priory became the
cathedral of the Bishops of Galloway in 1605.
The Abbey of Iona was consecrated a cathedral during the reign of Abbot
Mackinnon, the last Abbot of Iona in 1500.
--
Joseph Finlay
fox1
from Joseph Finlay <jos...@jfinl.demon.co.uk> contains these words:
> >> Glasgow - Begun in the 12th century and completed in the 15th century,
> >> dedicated to St. Mungo.
Just how 'old' is Glasgow? I always thought it a city born out of the
Industrial Age?
What was the population pre-1800?
David Thorpe
Joseph Finlay wrote in message ...
(snip)
>>Whithorn was never a Catherdral, it was an Abbey; the same is I
>>believe true of Iona, and possibly some of the others. To the medieval
>>mind an Abbey did not make a City, because an Abbey was considered to
>>be to some extent withdrawn from the world.
>>
>
>Whithorn is one of the oldest Christian centres in Britain and a place
>of pilgrimage until the Reformation. The Priory was built between the
>12th and 15th centuries and the church attached to the Priory became the
>cathedral of the Bishops of Galloway in 1605.
>
I think you'll find that the bishopric was either created or restored by
Fergus Lord of Galloway in 1186 and that he founded the priory and then
built a Romanesque cathedral which during the following century was
incorporated in a priory church serving the diocese of Galloway. In 1610
Bishop Gavin Hamilton rebuilt the nave of the cathedral which then served as
the parish church until replaced by the present parish church in 1822.
>The Abbey of Iona was consecrated a cathedral during the reign of Abbot
>Mackinnon, the last Abbot of Iona in 1500.
And served as the cathedral for the for the bishopric of the isles from then
until the Reformation. Thanks for pointing this out - I wasn't previously
aware that Iona had been anything but an Abbey and your posting spurred me
into a little research.
David Thorpe
David Thorpe
Malcolm Ogilvie wrote in message ...(snip)
>>The Concise Oxford Dictionary classes a "city" as a large town created a
>>city by charter and containing a cathedral.
>
>different, because its definition is:
>
>"Large town: (strictly) town created city by charter, especially as
>containing a cathedral."
>
>You might think I'm nit-picking, but the above quote is *not* the same
>as your "and containing a cathedral".
>
>The Shorter Oxford (2nd ed 1936) is vaguer:
>
>"In Great Britain and Ireland: Associated with episcopal seats, and
>ancient royal burghs, and in recent times conferred by royal authority
>on important boroughs, as Birmingham."
>
This seems a pretty good definition although so far as Scotland is concerned
I think you could narrow the episcopal definition further to pre-Reformation
sees. Brechin, Elgin and Dunblane would thus be covered, while the "ancient
royal burgh" definition would presumably take in Perth and even Edinburgh -
but see below......
>> That being said, there are
>>or were 14 cathedrals in Scotland, only three of which could/can now be
>>classed as being sited in a city.
>>
>>The three are as follows :-
>>
>>Glasgow - Begun in the 12th century and completed in the 15th century,
>>dedicated to St. Mungo.
>>
>>Edinburgh - The church of St Giles, was a classed as a cathedral up to
>>1689
Not so. St Giles was made a collegiate church by James III in 1466. The
last Mass was sung there in 1560 and subsequently presbyterianism held sway
until 1633 when Charles I declared the kirk to be a cathedral and Edinburgh
a bishopric and city. It is not clear whether its city status was achieved,
therefore, by royal charter (and I don't think that there is any record of
an actual charter) or by the fact that it was given a bishopric and
cathedral. In any event it was an unwise move as when Charles and his
bishops went a little further in 1637 and attempted to introduce the English
prayer book, Jenny Geddes famously flung her folding stool at the Dean with
the cry of "Deil colic the wame o' ye!" A year later the National Covenant
was signed in Greyfriars Kirk and episcopacy abolished so that any cathedral
status that St Giles enjoyed was presumably lost.
David Thorpe
Ian O. Morrison
<mal...@ogilvie.org> writes
<re Lismore>
>I didn't realise it was ever called a cathedral. It certainly isn't now.
Confused? You certainly will be after reading this thread.....
I was in Millport (on the Bicycle Island) last Monday, and it has a
cathedral.
There are numerous cathedrals in Edinburgh. I don't think there are any
official standards for what can be called a cathedral, just as there
aren't for museums (cathedrals for the muses, one might say). So any
Tom, Dick or Harriet can call themselves a saint and erect a cathedral
in their honour.
--------------------------------------------------------
Ian O. Morrison: http://www2.scran.ac.uk/staff/ianm/
....lapsed saint.....
Sharon L. Krossa
> Ann an sgriobhainn, <1dw686w.10rcf8a1268k0wN@sunet-s5as05-1-dynamic-
> 89.stanford.edu>, sgriobh Sharon L. Krossa
> <kro...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu>
> >
> >If one takes the approach that once a city always a city, then a key
> >determiner in Scotland of city status is not just having a cathedral,
> >but having a pre-reformation cathedral (or otherwise being a bishop's
> >seat). Thus, a modern Roman Catholic or Episcopal cathedral doesn't
> >count, but a ruined medieval one does.
> >
> Dunblane's cathedral isn't a ruin!
I wasn't saying it was -- notice the change in subject line? The ruined
(but, according to some, still city status giving) cathedral I
particularly had in mind was Elgin's. (And quite a lovely ruin it is,
too.)
Sharon