Railway W10 gauge - double-deckers?
N_Cook
containers, in the Southampton area now. Would there be any economic reason
for a specialised stock of double-decker passenger carriages , restricted to
W10 routes only ?
--
General electronic repairs, mainly music equipment these days ,
but anything considered other than TVs and PCs
http://www.divdev.fsnet.co.uk/repairs.htm
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
Andy Champ
> Tunnel deepening / bridge re-building etc in full swing, for 9.5 ft shipping
> containers, in the Southampton area now. Would there be any economic reason
> for a specialised stock of double-decker passenger carriages , restricted to
> W10 routes only ?
>
double deckers have been tried and failed on commuter lines. The extra
time to get the passengers up and down stairs slows the loading time too
much.
Andy
John B
> Tunnel deepening / bridge re-building etc in full swing, for 9.5 ft shipping
> containers, in the Southampton area now. Would there be any economic reason
> for a specialised stock of double-decker passenger carriages , restricted to
> W10 routes only ?
In theory: yes, given that 12x23m cars is a sensible maximum length
for commuter and inter-urban trains, double-decker W10 trains could
provide extra capacity once those limits are reached without having to
build new lines.
In practice: no, given that W10 upgrades have been driven by
railfreight requirements, the chances that a special build of trains
that's restricted to those routes will come anywhere close to meeting
passenger rail needs is very limited.
--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org
John B
Irrelevant: that's double deckers on normal UK loading gauge.
French RER stock (wide doors & large vestibules) would work fine, if
we had the gauge clearance to run it - unfortunately, the W10 freight
routes don't go anywhere near where double-decker commuter trains
would be useful.
Paul Scott
"N_Cook" <div...@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hha13g$l0t$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Tunnel deepening / bridge re-building etc in full swing, for 9.5 ft
> shipping
> containers, in the Southampton area now. Would there be any economic
> reason
> for a specialised stock of double-decker passenger carriages , restricted
> to
> W10 routes only ?
The DfT's double deck train report of 2007 does suggest that W10 clearance
provides the height required for UIC GB double decker trains, but not for
UIC GC; however they point out that the SWML freight enhancement is only as
far as Basingstoke, then diverts to the Midlands, so the huge cost of the
many structure alterations in the nearer London part of the route would have
to have a totally separate [passenger] business case.
There seems little indication in the report that they are seriously thinking
of hanging double deck trains on the back of the W10 project.
Paul
DW downunder
"Paul Scott" <notvali...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:W8udnTJHVpf9BaXW...@bt.com...
It is possible to build well-type multi-level cars (~DD) within the
structural clearances on some British routes. The freight based business
case for W9 - W12 projects has a benefit of reducing the number of
structural constrictions along the whole route. As it seems route and area
specific rollingstock are more the norm that the exception, these days, we
may yet see one of the freight routes becoming the progenitor of viable DD
operation in Britain.
UIC GB+ or GC/+ is NOT a prerequisite for DD, but is a convenient shorthand
for generously suitable clearances.
DW downunder
Graeme
"N_Cook" <div...@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
> Tunnel deepening / bridge re-building etc in full swing, for 9.5 ft
> shipping containers, in the Southampton area now. Would there be any
> economic reason for a specialised stock of double-decker passenger
> carriages , restricted to W10 routes only ?
>
The W10 route from Southampton doesn't go to London.
--
Graeme Wall
This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at <www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>
Photo galleries at <http://graeme-wall.fotopic.net/>
Paul Scott
"DW downunder" <noname> wrote in message
news:4b389d44$0$13769$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>> The DfT's double deck train report of 2007 does suggest that W10
>> clearance provides the height required for UIC GB double decker trains,
>> but not for UIC GC; however they point out that the SWML freight
>> enhancement is only as far as Basingstoke, then diverts to the Midlands,
>> so the huge cost of the many structure alterations in the nearer London
>> part of the route would have to have a totally separate [passenger]
>> business case.
>>
>> There seems little indication in the report that they are seriously
>> thinking of hanging double deck trains on the back of the W10 project.
>
> It is possible to build well-type multi-level cars (~DD) within the
> structural clearances on some British routes. The freight based business
> case for W9 - W12 projects has a benefit of reducing the number of
> structural constrictions along the whole route.
> As it seems route and area specific rollingstock are more the norm that
> the exception, these days, we may yet see one of the freight routes
> becoming the progenitor of viable DD operation in Britain.
Sure. But read the DfT report [John B has linked to it earlier] and ask
yourself if that is likely, rather than possible.
Paul
Chris Tolley
> UIC GB+ or GC/+ is NOT a prerequisite for DD, but is a convenient shorthand
What does NOT stand for in this convenient shorthand?
<g, d & r>
--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9683714.html
(55020 (Class 121) at Reading, 1 Jun 1985)
DW downunder
The focus at present is on NR's capacity plans involving longer trains and
better signalling. They want to focus on INFRASTRUCTURE. DD ideas could
derail that. DD comes into focus after the funding is LOCKED IN for CP5 and
beyond - then NR and DfT will look at DD issues to overcome "gaps" already
identified as remaining AFTER all the other capacity enhancement works are
completed.
DW downunder
DW downunder
"Chris Tolley" <cj.t...@bogus.co.uk (ukonline really)> wrote in message
news:1x93unf10jk3b.1104lptaiu65b$.dlg@40tude.net...
A very loud "not".
:)
DW downunder
<no use ducking, the audible frequency personnel immobiliser as used by the
Japs on the anti-whaling guys will get you from all angles>
<G>
Peter Masson
"DW downunder" <noname> wrote
> As it seems route and area specific rollingstock are more the norm that
> the exception, these days, we may yet see one of the freight routes
> becoming the progenitor of viable DD operation in Britain.
>
Is it the norm? While 390 and 295 have been specified for a specific route,
they will run on any 25 kV electrified line (and 395 on any DC 3rd rail line
as well). Chiltern's 168s are built as 'go anywhere' trains, and didn't take
advantage of the wider loading gauge available on the Chiltern route and
used by the 165s. ROSCOs will insist on 'go anywhere, as far as possible'
trains to maximise residual value, if the original TOC does not want to
renew the lease.
180 - the true go anywhere train, specified for FGW and now on Hull Trains,
Grand Central, and Hazel Grove.
Peter
Bruce
>The focus at present is on NR's capacity plans involving longer trains and
>better signalling. They want to focus on INFRASTRUCTURE. DD ideas could
>derail that. DD comes into focus after the funding is LOCKED IN for CP5 and
>beyond
There is no such thing as future funding being "LOCKED IN". That is a
statutory impossibility.
Whichever party (or parties) form the next government, there will have
to be massive cuts in public spending. The currently planned spending
on rail will be very high on the list of targets for deep spending
cuts, because it is already way beyond an affordable level.
Of course many people will be fooled by Labour into thinking that
there is no need for very painful cuts in public spending, when
massive cuts are an absolute certainty.
DW downunder
"Bruce" <docne...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hebij555f7jv9pnr0...@4ax.com...
Which basically would mean that *until* NR were satisfied that their
preferred infrastructure strategy for capacity increase has been locked in
(as far as it can be), they will give short shrift to any DD plans. The
reason is obvious, DD could allow a "soft option" to defer the
infrastructure investment. NR and DfT want the best of both.
My 2p, 5c etc
DW downunder
Willms
<docne...@gmail.com> auf uk.railway :
> Of course many people will be fooled by Labour into thinking that
> there is no need for very painful cuts in public spending, when
> massive cuts are an absolute certainty.
Sure, the money thrown into the private banks has to be taken from
somewhere. The pockets of poor people are the most likely source.
Cheers,
L.W.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce
wrote:
>Am Mon, 28 Dec 2009 22:27:04 UTC, schrieb Bruce
><docne...@gmail.com> auf uk.railway :
>
>> Of course many people will be fooled by Labour into thinking that
>> there is no need for very painful cuts in public spending, when
>> massive cuts are an absolute certainty.
>
> Sure, the money thrown into the private banks has to be taken from
>somewhere. The pockets of poor people are the most likely source.
No, the poor will be insulated from reality by the Welfare State.
If money has to be raised, it always has to come from middle income
earners. That is because there are so many of them and they have
income that can easily be taxed. The rich escape, as usual.
Willms
<docne...@gmail.com> auf uk.railway :
> > Sure, the money thrown into the private banks has to be taken from
> >somewhere. The pockets of poor people are the most likely source.
> No, the poor will be insulated from reality by the Welfare State.
In Germany, the "welfare state" has been more and more dismantled in
the past years, with the purpose, among others, to drive down wages. I
can't imagine that this has been different in any other imperialist
country.
> If money has to be raised, it always has to come from middle income
> earners. That is because there are so many of them and they have
> income that can easily be taxed. The rich escape, as usual.
A friend and comrade of mine from the USA postulated lately, in the
context of the health insurance debate:
----- cut -----------------------
One lesson from this is the reminder that whenever the rulers denounce
people
who supposedly have "Cadillacs," their target is always the poor,
officially
defined today as the "middle class." Just in case you are not up to
date,
the "middle class" is everybody who is not homeless or in maximum
security
prisons. Medium and minimum security, which may soon be redefined to
include
every jail program that doesn't include daily water-boarding, are
"middle
class."
-------------- off ---------------
Cheers,
L.W.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce
wrote:
>Am Sat, 2 Jan 2010 11:21:03 UTC, schrieb Bruce
><docne...@gmail.com> auf uk.railway :
>
>> > Sure, the money thrown into the private banks has to be taken from
>> >somewhere. The pockets of poor people are the most likely source.
>
>> No, the poor will be insulated from reality by the Welfare State.
>
> In Germany, the "welfare state" has been more and more dismantled in
>the past years, with the purpose, among others, to drive down wages. I
>can't imagine that this has been different in any other imperialist
>country.
Is Germany still an imperialist country? I thought that ended in
1945, and that Germany was now a member of the European Union.
>> If money has to be raised, it always has to come from middle income
>> earners. That is because there are so many of them and they have
>> income that can easily be taxed. The rich escape, as usual.
>
> A friend and comrade of mine from the USA postulated lately, in the
>context of the health insurance debate:
>
>----- cut -----------------------
>One lesson from this is the reminder that whenever the rulers denounce
>people
>who supposedly have "Cadillacs," their target is always the poor,
>officially
>defined today as the "middle class." Just in case you are not up to
>date,
>the "middle class" is everybody who is not homeless or in maximum
>security
>prisons. Medium and minimum security, which may soon be redefined to
>include
>every jail program that doesn't include daily water-boarding, are
>"middle
>class."
>-------------- off ---------------
Crikey! He's just as daft as you!
Willms
<docne...@gmail.com> auf uk.railway :
> Is Germany still an imperialist country?
of course, one of the strongest (even if not militarily, thanks to
experience).
> I thought that ended in 1945,
revise your thoughts, and try to bring them in tune with reality.
It's useful.
> and that Germany was now a member of the European Union.
So what?
And what has that to do with the price of fish?
Cheers,
L.W:
---------------------------------------------------------------
Graeme
"Willms" <l.wi...@domain.invalid> wrote:
> Am Sat, 2 Jan 2010 14:21:08 UTC, schrieb Bruce
> <docne...@gmail.com> auf uk.railway :
>
> > Is Germany still an imperialist country?
>
> of course, one of the strongest (even if not militarily, thanks to
> experience).
>
Name the current German colonies.
>
> > I thought that ended in 1945,
>
> revise your thoughts, and try to bring them in tune with reality.
> It's useful.
A self-confessed marxist lecturing others on reality, how droll!
>
> > and that Germany was now a member of the European Union.
>
> So what?
>
> And what has that to do with the price of fish?
>
You've not heard of the Common Fisheries Policy?
Willms
<ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> auf uk.railway :
> > > Is Germany still an imperialist country?
> >
> > of course, one of the strongest (even if not militarily, thanks to
> > experience).
> Name the current German colonies.
Germany has been liberated of colonies already eight decades ago.
But that did not change the nature of the beast. The German government
takes part in the occupation of various countries like parts of
Jugoslavia and of Afghanistan, also takes part in what has to be
judged as piracy operations in the Gulf of Aden and off the Lebanese
coast, also in the Gibraltar strait.
The German bourgeoisie formulates its military goals as securing
sources of raw material, markets of their products, international
trading routes, and of pools of cheap labor (labelled as "investment
opportunities").
> A self-confessed marxist lecturing others on reality, how droll!
Whom are you talking about?
> > > and that Germany was now a member of the European Union.
> >
> > So what?
> >
> > And what has that to do with the price of fish?
> You've not heard of the Common Fisheries Policy?
Good reply! Congratulations for the joke!
Cheers,
L.W.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Graeme
"Willms" <l.wi...@domain.invalid> wrote:
> Am Sat, 2 Jan 2010 17:01:21 UTC, schrieb Graeme
> <ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> auf uk.railway :
>
> > > > Is Germany still an imperialist country?
> > >
> > > of course, one of the strongest (even if not militarily, thanks to
> > > experience).
>
> > Name the current German colonies.
>
> Germany has been liberated of colonies already eight decades ago.
So it's not an imperial power, do make your mind up.
> But that did not change the nature of the beast. The German government
> takes part in the occupation of various countries like parts of
> Jugoslavia
No such country. I take it you approved of the genocidal tendencies of the
then Serb leadership.
> and of Afghanistan, also takes part in what has to be judged as piracy
> operations in the Gulf of Aden and off the Lebanese coast,
I've not seen any involvement in piracy by German nationals in the Indian
ocean, not since 1945 anyway.
> also in the Gibraltar strait.
Or there, Herr Donitz retired a long time ago.
> > A self-confessed marxist lecturing others on reality, how droll!
>
> Whom are you talking about?
One L�ko Willms who posts the most ludicrous theories on this group, you must
have come across him.
Like all good (sic) marxists he comes over all Judas-like when cornered.
Willms
<ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> auf uk.railway :
> > > A self-confessed marxist lecturing others on reality, how droll!
> >
> > Whom are you talking about?
>
> One L ko Willms who posts the most ludicrous theories on this group, you must
> have come across him.
When and where has this person you are talking about declared
him-/herself "a self-confessed marxist" (and please explain: what is a
"marxist"?).
L.W.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce
wrote:
>Am Sat, 2 Jan 2010 20:57:39 UTC, schrieb Graeme
><ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> auf uk.railway :
>
>> > > A self-confessed marxist lecturing others on reality, how droll!
>> >
>> > Whom are you talking about?
>>
>> One L ko Willms who posts the most ludicrous theories on this group, you must
>> have come across him.
>
> When and where has this person you are talking about declared
>him-/herself "a self-confessed marxist" (and please explain: what is a
>"marxist"?).
You sound like a member of the Judea People's Front expressing his
outrage at being labelled a member of the People's Front of Judea.
;-)
Willms
<docne...@gmail.com> auf uk.railway :
> You sound like a member of the Judea People's Front expressing his
> outrage at being labelled a member of the People's Front of Judea.
The bright side of life is that I do not follow any
<name-that-person>-ism.
Science is my catchword (now don't you tell me about "Christian
Science"! -- science is about facts, and "check it yourself", not "you
have to believe me").
cheers,
L.W.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Willms
<ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> auf uk.railway :
> > and of Afghanistan, also takes part in what has to be judged as piracy
> > operations in the Gulf of Aden and off the Lebanese coast,
>
> I've not seen any involvement in piracy by German nationals in the Indian
> ocean, not since 1945 anyway.
You might want to fresh up your knowledby by checking this proud
information by the German war marine:
> <http://www.marine.de/portal/a/marine/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLNzKOD_QJAsmB2d7m5vqRUJYTQtQsBCoKUhuUkqrv65Gfm6rvrR-gX5AbGlHu6KgIAFfn-wk!/delta/base64xml/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS80SVVFLzZfMjNfUUxT?yw_contentURL=%2F01DB070000000001%2FW269DJ87995INFODE%2Fcontent.jsp>
and
> <http://www.marine.de/portal/a/marine/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLNzKOD_QJAsmB2d7m5vqRUJYTQtQsBCoKUhuUkqrv65Gfm6rvrR-gX5AbGlHu6KgIAFfn-wk!/delta/base64xml/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS80SVVFLzZfMjNfMjZLRw!!?yw_contentURL=%2F01DB070000000001%2FW27M8G47289INFODE%2Fcontent.jsp>
> > also in the Gibraltar strait.
>
> Or there, Herr Donitz retired a long time ago.
Well, again, facts are stubborn things, and can hurt quite a lot, if
your head bangs against them. Check out this from the same source:
> <http://www.marine.de/portal/a/marine/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLNzKO9zZ3AslB2eb6kZiiZiFIokEpqfre-r4e-bmp-gH6BbmhEeWOjooA8ewEMA!!/delta/base64xml/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS80SVVFLzZfMjNfUUxN?yw_contentURL=/01DB070000000001/W26AXA7T062INFODE/content.jsp>
Cheers,
L.W.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Graeme
"Willms" <l.wi...@domain.invalid> wrote:
> Am Sat, 2 Jan 2010 20:57:39 UTC, schrieb Graeme
> <ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> auf uk.railway :
>
> > > > A self-confessed marxist lecturing others on reality, how droll!
> > >
> > > Whom are you talking about?
> >
> > One L ko Willms who posts the most ludicrous theories on this group, you must
> > have come across him.
>
> When and where has this person you are talking about declared
> him-/herself "a self-confessed marxist" (and please explain: what is a
> "marxist"?).
>
Ah Judas, has the cock not crowed yet?
Willms
<ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> auf uk.railway :
> Ah Judas, has the cock not crowed yet?
Hey, Pontius Pilatus!
Always think of the bright side of life!
Yours,
Brian
---------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Tolley
> Ah Judas, has the cock not crowed yet?
FWIW, ITYM Peter.
--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9683630.html
(101 653 at Manchester Piccadilly, 18 Sep 1999)
Graeme
"Willms" <l.wi...@domain.invalid> wrote:
> Am Sun, 3 Jan 2010 09:10:28 UTC, schrieb Graeme
> <ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> auf uk.railway :
>
> > Ah Judas, has the cock not crowed yet?
>
> Hey, Pontius Pilatus!
> Always think of the bright side of life!
>
>
A pedant writes: Always look on the bright side of life!
Graeme
Chris Tolley <cj.t...@bogus.co.uk (ukonline really)> wrote:
> Graeme wrote:
>
> > Ah Judas, has the cock not crowed yet?
>
> FWIW, ITYM Peter.
I bow to your superior knowledge!
Willms
<ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> auf uk.railway :
> Ah Judas, has the cock not crowed yet?
Anyway, the one with the cock was somebody else, but hadn't you
chattered about modern day heresies, like your favorite "marxism"? So
what have the Christian legends to do with your previously uttered
fantasies about yours truly?
Cheers,
L.W.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Graeme
"Willms" <l.wi...@domain.invalid> wrote:
> Am Sun, 3 Jan 2010 09:10:28 UTC, schrieb Graeme
> <ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> auf uk.railway :
>
> > Ah Judas, has the cock not crowed yet?
>
> Anyway, the one with the cock was somebody else, but hadn't you
> chattered about modern day heresies, like your favorite "marxism"? So
> what have the Christian legends to do with your previously uttered
> fantasies about yours truly?
>
Still in denial I see.
Willms
<ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> auf uk.railway :
> Still in denial
denial of what?
> I see.
It seems to me that you are rather blind.
Cheers,
L.W.
-------------------------------------------------------------
E27002
> In message <kgvodc3yixw7.vijz7aa9nrnz$....@40tude.net>
> Chris Tolley <cj.tol...@bogus.co.uk (ukonline really)> wrote:
>
> > Graeme wrote:
>
> > > Ah Judas, has the cock not crowed yet?
>
> > FWIW, ITYM Peter.
>
> I bow to your superior knowledge!
>
> --
> Graeme Wall
>