I would like to ask a question if I may - hopefully someone might
be able to give some advice.
Yesterday, I resigned from my job giving a month's notice after a bitter row
with the newly appointed
manager, who launched into a particularly vicious tirade, implying all
manner of bad deeds.
This row stemmed from the manager mistakingly thinking the apparent
vanishing of our works website that I had made for our company, was done
'intentionally' by me.
In detail;
I designed, built, uploaded and consistently maintained our works website.
No contract for the work was entered into, save for an agreement between
myself, and the then manager and owner.
The owner of the company was so pleased, he bought another laptop for the
company, and said it was there for me to take home and use as my own, as a
thank you, and to use for any further ammendments to the site.
This machine died some 10 months ago, and though an insurance claim was
made, and monies paid out to the company, I have never had a replacement.
Some time ago, I made very heavy modifications to the website, and was paid
£150 as a goodwill gesture. Again, no contract was entered into. All this
with the then manager in charge, and agreed between ourselves and very
amicable.
I did not request any payment.
This payment was given for the modifications and my time spent, not for the
original building of the site, or it's maintenance.
This payment came with no invoice or paperwork of any kind.
(In my naivety, I didn't pay any tax on the payment - something that I will
rectify in the coming days.)
I took the website down overnight one night, to make further modifications,
and
unfortunately fell ill the next day and was unable to re-upload it's
contents.
The website is a non-revenue website.
There are no facilities for online purchasing, it is simply a display of our
products.
The site is by no stretch of the imagination, a 'must have' for our
production.
It gets very, very little traffic, we are just a small engineering firm.
I didn't think it so important. I have always been encouraged to work on the
site in whatever way I see fit, and been pretty much left to it.
I still hadn't uploaded the site when I returned to work 2 days later.
Hence the afore mentioned row, when I got back to work and him coming to the
conclusion I had done
this deliberately.
(I had in fact tried to reinstate it, but he had changed the passwords.)
I explained this was not the case, but was told I was not telling the truth
in his opinion, and he ordered me in no uncertain terms to reinstate the
website or there would be serious reprecussions.
I told to the new manager he was very wrong, but while we're addressing the
subject, that I created the website in my own spare
time, and continue to maintain it in my own time, and would he consider
paying me for my continued work, or at least consider replacing the laptop.
He declined with great zeal.
I felt that I was being hauled over the coals for not doing something that I
don't get paid for, and do in my own time.
There are logs to show that I made repeated attempts to re-upload the
website, but the access passwords have been changed by my manager -
apparently to prevent me from doing any further 'damage'.
I simply _could not_ rectify the situation.
In a nutshell, he has had a knee-jerk reaction and has seen my taking down
the site to work on as a malicious
move and forced me to give him the contents on a CD under the threat of
legal action.
This I have done, and promptly gave in my resignation after 18 unbroken
years of service.
My question is, do I have any legal ownership of the website contents and
design?
May I force him not to use my work?
I have been half told of 'intellectual copyright' , presumably that
being anything that has been created, immediately has it's creator's
copyright, but with no definate legal binding. I have taken it upon myself
to burn the contents onto CD, and post them by registered post to myself,
with date stamps all over the seal.
Again, I know not if this is helpful to me, but was worth the effort if it
may be of help in the future.
If the manager decides to use my work, would I have any legal rights?
As I have voluntarily resigned, have I any grounds for a constructive
dismissal case?
My employer made it viciously clear he would be making sure I never got the
chance to behave in a subordinate way again, as 'he was running the ship
now' ..
I believe I was unnecessarily, and really quite severely reprimanded for
something I haven't done, and have been made to look malicious in my intent.
My explanation was simply not accepted.
I strongly feel I have been forced to resign after being threatened in such
a way, but I do fully understand it was my move to resign, and don't really
expect anything can be made from this.
The manager told me he had found 'my little note' ( my resignation letter
left on his desk ), and 'accepts my decision. I don't want you here for a
month though, you can go tonight.'
This he told me on the workshop floor in front of all my workmates.
I felt so humiliated.
Many, many thanks for any advice anyone might give.
{Addendum - I have had brief correspondence with a solicitor who thinks I
may have a valid case for Constructive/Unfair dismissal. I'm still rather in
the mud over the copyright issues}
Mick.
IANAL
If you`d taken down the website, and they have no cache of the "original"
version, there would appear to be no way he *could* use your work.
Who is the domain registered to ? (I assume it`s them, as the new "boss"
managed to restrict access)
--
Please add "[newsgroup]" in the subject of any personal replies via email
or you are likely to be spam filtered :-}
Hi Colin, thanks for the reply.
From my original post:
---
"In a nutshell, he has had a knee-jerk reaction and has seen my taking down
the site to work on as a malicious move and forced me to give him the
contents on a CD under the threat of legal action.
This I have done, and promptly gave in my resignation after 18 unbroken
years of service."
---
So, the manager now has a copy of the CD.
If I'm honest, I was a little afraid after his threat of legal action.
I complied with his request for the CD.
I have a medical history concerning stress, I really didn't want to have to
worry about upsetting someone who, for all I know, could commence
proceedings against me.
> Who is the domain registered to ? (I assume it`s them, as the new "boss"
> managed to restrict access)
>
Yes, the domain name is registered to the company.
If I may add to my post now you mention him having access, I recall I had
said to him, I will provide him with the disc, but I will not be forced to
do any further work on it, and that included using an FTP client to upload
the site.
His reply was that he wasn't concerend with any of that. He just wanted the
contents off me, and he will modify anything he wants, and he will take care
of the re-uploading of the site, and any future ammendments.
Mick.
Sorry, I missed that earlier...
I`d be more concerned right now about the jumped up little sh!t getting
shut of you by way of workplace bullying (unless you already have
somewhere else to work, in which case, sod them), but as I say, IANAL and
can`t really advise further :-/
Thanks for the effort though Colin!
No, against my better decision, I resigned before finding alternative work,
and yes, as I said earlier, I have a solicitor looking into my case of
dismissal at the moment.
Copyright seems to be a somewhat grey area, I understand this to be due to
there being so many different ways of it being needed or implemented, and
there being no official process for copyrighting.
Ideally, if someone could advise, I'd like to know what anyone would think
my next step should be.
I'm thinking along the lines of a letter to the manager explaining my views
on the subject, what I think is the legal position, and then waiting to see
if he goes ahead and uses it.
Or of course, if he'd like to make a reasonable offer for my work.
;)
Thanks again,
Mick.
>This I have done, and promptly gave in my resignation after 18 unbroken
>years of service."
It seems to have been a heat-of-the-moment decision with far reaching
consequences unmerited (in my view) by the incident.
Isn't there a higher authority within the firm that can mediate
between the parties and hopefully arrive at a mutually agreeable
solution without you having to lose your job over such a trivial
matter?
Under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, the presumption is that:
9.-(1) In this Part "author", in relation to a work, means the person who
creates it.
(3) In the case of a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work which is
computer-generated, the author shall be taken to be the person by whom the
arrangements necessary for the creation of the work are undertaken.
Your work is classed as a literary work (as are computer programs, internet
sites, instruction manuals, etc.) and so you would be presumed to be the
owner as you created it, IMO. The problem will be with s. 11:
11.-(1) The author of a work is the first owner of any copyright in it,
subject to the following provisions.
(2) Where a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work is made by an
employee in the course of his employment, his employer is the first owner of
any copyright in the work subject to any agreement to the contrary.
The question is whether you were acting in the 'course of [your]
employment'. I would personally argue that you were, because you acted
under an arrangement with your manager which would not have been made but
for your employment, it was done for the benefit of the employer, and it
became one of your duties as an employee.
You could try offering to assign the copyright in the website to him for a
fee (noting that such an assignment would have to be done in writing), but
it would be costly and - in my opinion - probably fruitless to attempt to
sue him for breach of copyright if you failed.
On the other hand, an action for constructive dismissal might be a better
avenue, as it seems clear that your employer has taken actions 'calculated
or intended to break down the relationship of mutual respect and trust' in
his treatment of you after your illness. I am, however, far from an expert
in this area, and I would advise you to seek legal advice.
Finally, IANAL and the copyright advice is simply my understanding as
somebody who has needed to protect their copyright in the past.
-- jcw
Hi Anon.
> >This I have done, and promptly gave in my resignation after 18 unbroken
> >years of service."
>
> It seems to have been a heat-of-the-moment decision with far reaching
> consequences unmerited (in my view) by the incident.
>
Yes, indeed.
Admittedly, I have been rash.
Might be worth pointing out, the 'Big Boss, the owner, urged me not to hand
in my resignation.
I handed in the letter with this explanation, and asked would the manager
speak with the owner ( who is in the South by the way. We are in the North.
Not always the best situation. ), to which he replied no. I've accepted your
decision. You leave tonight.
I can't argue with that. I handed in the letter after all.
I would have liked for him to discuss it with the owner, but it appears he
has been given the job as Manager, and he's doing it as he sees fit.
> Isn't there a higher authority within the firm that can mediate
> between the parties and hopefully arrive at a mutually agreeable
> solution without you having to lose your job over such a trivial
> matter?
>
Well, the afore mentioned owner I guess.
But I really don't hold a lot of hope for that.
Would it be fair for me to say, that after this reprimand I truthfully could
not foresee a healthy workable relationship with the manager?
I doubt we could work together after so much was said.
As I explained, I was REALLY hauled over the coals.
His biggest beef was that I hadn't asked his permission to take the site
down for modification.
I had always done it off my own steam.
I find the reprimand for that, very unfair.
Thanks,
Mick.
There will probably still be a minimum notice period for leaving, but
since he`s already told you "you leave tonight" it might be difficult for
them to enforce any attempt to reclaim money to cover costs while you`re
not there, but you should still be entitled to the one month notice (or
whatever it is)
Do you have any way of contacting higher management to explain the
situation to them ?
You may feel that way now. But people do fall out, make up and rebuild
good working relationships in due course. It's human nature.
It appears that there is no question concerning your general work
standard and you've obviously been happy there over the past 18 years.
For it all to end over a misunderstanding about a website that you
were maintaining almost as a favour seems very unfortunate.
It also sounds as if the new manager is inexperienced in management to
have allowed such a situation to escalate to such a pitch. His
behaviour may be a sign of insecurity or immaturity.
>I doubt we could work together after so much was said.
>As I explained, I was REALLY hauled over the coals.
>His biggest beef was that I hadn't asked his permission to take the site
>down for modification.
>I had always done it off my own steam.
>I find the reprimand for that, very unfair.
Life is unfair - but a job is a job, and they don't grow on trees
these days.
I'd write to the Big Boss if I were you. Put your case to him and ask
for his decision in the matter.
Something like this happened to me many years ago. The boss ended up
sacking the manager and promoting me to his position.
Good luck.
Oh yes.
I'm sorry, I should have mentioned that.
AFAIK, there is no problem with my being paid for the month I won't be
working there.
It's always been their poicy for workshop staff to leave right away, and be
paid their notice in full.
the whole ' they might become an unruly employee' thing I imagine.
> Do you have any way of contacting higher management to explain the
> situation to them ?
>
I have, yes.
And I have left a message on the owner's machine.
Unfortunately, I am of the thinking the owner may now at this stage ( I
mentioned 'history', and this is a new manager, the last one just gave up..)
may just give full power to the new manager, and respect his decision.
To over-ride him at this early stage may have an adverse effect in his
opinion I think.
M
I will sum up your long append:
You were employed by a firm "X" in some capacity or other.
During your employment with that employer you designed and implemented a web
site.
This you have done on your initiative, in your spare time with no financial
compensation from your employer.
This activity was not in your job descrition, you were not asked to do it by
your employer.
The site you designed was to provide information about your company and you
continued to work on it now with the knowledge of the management who
appreciated your efforts with ex gratia payment of £150.00.
Subsequently, a row with the newly appointed manager resulted in you
resigning.
a)
From what you say the web site is yours.
To use it the company should buy it from you, if they intend to continue to
use it.
b)
For resolution of this you need to look at your "contract of employment"
which should address "disciplinary matters" and procedure to resolve these.
You could argue that the "trust" between you and the company was irevocably
affected by the action of the new manager, and that his action/s were
responsible for you resigning - therefore constructive dismissal. Speak with
your solicitor again. Time to take action is limited.
Of course. I appreciate that, and if I'm pushed, I could agree with you.
Maybe at this point, I wouldn't, but it is very soon.
> It appears that there is no question concerning your general work
> standard and you've obviously been happy there over the past 18 years.
> For it all to end over a misunderstanding about a website that you
> were maintaining almost as a favour seems very unfortunate.
>
> It also sounds as if the new manager is inexperienced in management to
> have allowed such a situation to escalate to such a pitch. His
> behaviour may be a sign of insecurity or immaturity.
>
Yes. I really didn't want to go into the history of the company, I have read
a couple of hundred messages here before posting. I really wanted to outline
the situation for anyone without being long and involving!
Briefly, the last manager came in after the two partners sold.
He almost ruined us, and there was very little respect between the workforce
and him.
The lack of respect inevitably led to a lack of discipline. As a result, our
production dropped significantly.
I believe this new manager is under instruction to take no s**t, lay down
the law, and (supposedly) get the company back into the league, as it were.
> >I doubt we could work together after so much was said.
> >As I explained, I was REALLY hauled over the coals.
> >His biggest beef was that I hadn't asked his permission to take the site
> >down for modification.
> >I had always done it off my own steam.
> >I find the reprimand for that, very unfair.
>
> Life is unfair - but a job is a job, and they don't grow on trees
> these days.
>
> I'd write to the Big Boss if I were you. Put your case to him and ask
> for his decision in the matter.
>
> Something like this happened to me many years ago. The boss ended up
> sacking the manager and promoting me to his position.
>
> Good luck.
>
>
Thank you, and thank you for your good advice.
I will indeed speak with the owner on Monday, and though, as I said, right
now I don't feel as if I could work there in his company.
However, the prospect of taking a lower paid job, just so I can pay the
mortgae, fills me with dread!
Maybe I'll get that manager's job eh?
Thanks again,
Mick.
After speaking with a good friend of mine this evening - a one time lawyer,
I can tell you, you have echoed her words almost exactly. Though the
sentiments of the other posters here, namely possibilty of reconcilliation,
was also mentioned as a favourable possibilty.
I am copying text from the thread here, and I will do the same with this
one.
Thanks very much for your help.
If I may say, this group's contributors have kept me glued to the threads.
So much selfless good wishes and good advice are posted.
It's good to hear views from people that are essentially trying to help
someone, rather than criticise them for their actions, whilst taking an
unbiased view and putting forward more than just the one side of a coin.
At a particularly sensitive time for me, I take some comfort from this kind
of support.
Thanks again,
Mick.
Withdraw your resignation....
Go and see a doctor and tell him you are suffering with stress and
depression, worke related stress that is.. You cannot cope, etc etc etc...
Doc will give you 28 days.
Go back again next month and tell him you still feel same...
Oh god, how they hate this...!!!! End up paying large sum to clear
liability....
:-)
Ah yes, I am familiar with this.
We had a couple who did just this some years ago, then set up on their own
in direct competition, in the same town.
I had to sign a new contract after that with a clause in it saying I cannot
work for another company within 20 miles doing the same thing, for 12 months
after leaving.
( I'm told that this will 'more than likely' be waived in my case, which is
a big relief.)
Whilst the idea of a payout appeals to me in my still angry state, I very,
very much doubt I could do something like this.
The people that *still* work there ( out of 10 people working there, office
and shop floor, there have been 5 resignations in 5 months. Three of them in
the past month. There have been replacements of course, but the shop floor
now has only 5 people) are my friends - I've worked side by side with them
for almost 20 years.
And the owner has tried his best to be helpful. I certainly don't want to
burn any bridges, or make things uncomfortable between myself and my
ex-workmates - the aforementioned couple took the company for such a ride,
their names are never spoken now, just 'spat out' !
Who knows, I may have to work with these people again one day. I have only
ever had this one job ( save for YTS training college ), and hopefully I'll
be able to get into the same industry again soon.
It's quite a specialised job, and many of the companies work together, in
the way of supplying each other with products/accessories etc. Word quickly
gets around ( hence the 'loyalty' clause ), and it definately will.
I'd hate to think I would have a reputation that could proceed me!
I'd stand a better chance of getting a job in the same industry, known as
'Mick who resigned because he felt he got a raw deal' rather than 'Mick who
resigned, retracted, then went on the sick with citing stress for two
months, then got a liability pay out' .
I'd think that any company might look at me as a possible liabilty, rather
than a prospective employee.
Thanks,
Mick.
>I handed in the letter with this explanation, and asked would the manager
>speak with the owner ( who is in the South by the way. We are in the North.
>Not always the best situation. ), to which he replied no. I've accepted your
>decision. You leave tonight.
>I can't argue with that. I handed in the letter after all.
You certainly may argue with that!
An employee has a *right* to withdraw his/her resignation at any time
during the notice period. Even on the last day.
The employer is *not permitted* to rely on a letter of resignation as
being grounds to force the employee to leave. To do so would be
unfair dismissal.
You certainly have very good grounds to win a case for constructive
dismissal.
--
Cynic
That is a very dubious proposition of law, with respect, and I think it is
incorrect. Unless there is some recent employment legislation that I'm not
aware of.
>
> The employer is *not permitted* to rely on a letter of resignation as
> being grounds to force the employee to leave. To do so would be
> unfair dismissal.
As above. Ordinarily the employer is entitled to rely on a letter of
resignation as terminating the contract. There is however the Kwik-fit
case - see below. It would be rash to place too much reliance on it, though.
>
> You certainly have very good grounds to win a case for constructive
> dismissal.
That's another matter. If you resign because you are being harassed or
bullied or unreasonably demoted (or various other circumstances) you can
claim constructive dismissal.
Kwik-Fit (GB) Ltd v Lineham
Where an employee offered his resignation in the heat of the moment, and it
was unambiguous, the employer could accept it as such, but where special
circumstances existed, the employer should allow a reasonable time to elapse
and investigate the matter further before accepting it. L was a manager at
one of the employers' depots. He entered the premises at night to use the
lavatory, setting off the alarm system. He was questioned the next day and
gave the explanation, but was given a written warning. He was angry, walked
out, and then told the employers that he would take them to an industrial
tribunal for unfair dismissal. He did complain, and the tribunal held that
he had been unfairly dismissed, because when words of resignation were
spoken in the heat of the moment, the employers had a duty to check the true
intention of the employee, which, in this case, they had not done.
Held, dismissing the employers' appeal, that ordinarily an employer was
entitled to treat unambiguous words of resignation as such, but where
special circumstances existed, possibly due to the individual
characteristics of the employee, an employer should allow a reasonable time
to elapse during which facts might appear which cast doubt on the
prima-facie interpretation of the unambiguous words. If, in such cases, the
employer failed to investigate the facts, a tribunal might find him
disentitled to assume that the words amounted to a resignation. The
tribunal, on this basis of the law, had been entitled to come to their
decision.
Court: (EAT) Employment Appeal Tribunal
Reported: [1992] I.C.R. 183
see also
Greater Glasgow Health Board v MacKay
The respondent was employed by the appellants from 1972 until 1987. In
November and December 1986 she took an unauthorised holiday. A disciplinary
hearing took place on January 6, 1987. On January 7, 1987 she was involved
in an altercation with her immediate superior. Immediately after the
altercation the respondent stated that she was leaving and wrote out a
letter of resignation which was accepted. She then submitted medical
certificates to the respondents and later asked that her resignation be
withdrawn, which was refused. Subsequently, the respondent claimed that she
had been unfairly dismissed. She submitted an application to an industrial
tribunal. The question the industrial tribunal was invited to answer was:
"Was I unfairly dismissed, on the basis that I was constructively
dismissed?" The tribunal held that the respondent had not been
constructively dismissed but that the appellants ought to have been aware
that the respondent was suffering from stress and to have accepted her
withdrawal of resignation. The appellants appealed to the employment appeal
tribunal who concluded that the tribunal had not erred in law and dismissed
the appeal. The appellants appealed to the Court of Session and argued that
there was no evidence that they knew or ought to have known that the
respondent was suffering from stress or an anxiety state at the time. Her
letter of resignation was clear and unambiguous in its terms. The respondent
argued that the resignation should be treated as in the heat of the moment
and that the appellants were not entitled to accept it at face value.
Held, (1) that the tribunal failed to address the appropriate question,
namely whether the appellants knew or ought to have known that the
respondent's resignation was anything other than a conscious or rational
decision; (2) that there were no findings in fact by the tribunal to justify
the conclusion that the appellants knew or should have known that the
respondent was suffering from an anxiety state at the time of her
resignation or resigned in the heat of the moment; (3) that the employment
appeal tribunal similarly failed to address the correct question; and (4)
that there was no justification in the findings for concluding that special
circumstances existed which would constitute an exception to the general
rule that an employer was entitled to act on the employee's unambiguous
words of resignation; and appeal allowed.
Reported: 1989 S.L.T. 729
[Copyright Sweet & Maxwell]
>> An employee has a *right* to withdraw his/her resignation at any time
>> during the notice period. Even on the last day.
>That is a very dubious proposition of law, with respect, and I think it is
>incorrect. Unless there is some recent employment legislation that I'm not
>aware of.
It was advice I received from our company solicitor when the situation
arose with an employee three weeks ago. I did not think to question
the law he relied upon. In this case, the employee resigned due to
getting a better offer of employment, but the better offer was
withdrawn shortly after he had tendered his resignation and he wished
to withdraw his resignation.
Thanks for the case law - interesting. I'll probably discuss the
matter more deeply when I next speak with the solicitor.
--
Cynic
Indeed.
Thank you both ( Cynic and The Todal ) for your advice and thoughts on the
matter.
Mick.