oops - hit a gas supply
Kevin Lyons
our securing pins hit a 3.5" gas main at less than 18" below surface. This
has been fixed by Transco but we've been told to expect a bill.
There is nothing in the field to indicate there is a gas supply underground.
There is no gas supply to the campsite, they use bottled gas. They had no
knowledge whatsover of the pipe.
I know we damaged the pipe etc but is there any comeback on Transco given
the pipe wasn't marked and now sounds like it shouldn't be there anyway?
TIA
Kevin
The Todal
"Kevin Lyons" <kevin...@mailkey.com> wrote in message
news:3edb6566$1...@news.greennet.net...
I should think your public liability insurers will pay the bill. They might
also stipulate in their policy that before driving pins into the ground you
should take the trouble to obtain diagrams of gas, electricity and water
mains and/or use cable detectors.
How can you blame Transco? Are they supposed to draw a line on the field to
show where their pipe is? Surely not. Are there manhole covers and valve
covers which would indicate the presence of pipes below the ground? You
suggest not, but have you looked properly?
Dr Zoidberg
> "Kevin Lyons" <kevin...@mailkey.com> wrote in message
> news:3edb6566$1...@news.greennet.net...
>> We erected a marquee on a campsite to be used for a charity event.
>> One of our securing pins hit a 3.5" gas main at less than 18" below
>> surface. This has been fixed by Transco but we've been told to
>> expect a bill.
>>
>> There is nothing in the field to indicate there is a gas supply
>> underground. There is no gas supply to the campsite, they use
>> bottled gas. They had no knowledge whatsover of the pipe.
>>
>> I know we damaged the pipe etc but is there any comeback on Transco
>> given the pipe wasn't marked and now sounds like it shouldn't be
>> there anyway?
>
> field to show where their pipe is? Surely not. Are there manhole
> covers and valve covers which would indicate the presence of pipes
> below the ground? You suggest not, but have you looked properly?
I expect there is a minimum depth that gas lines should be buried to prevent
just such an accident.
18" doesn't sound very deep at all to me.
--
Alex
SRX 400
"I laugh in the face of danger"
"Then I hide until it goes away"
The Todal
"Dr Zoidberg" <AlexNOOOOOOO!!!!!@drzoidberg.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bbfi8q$8v03v$1...@ID-46820.news.dfncis.de...
Assuming that the OP's insurers are going to deal with it, he could leave it
to them to raise these arguments and to look into these issues. It would
certainly be worthwhile asking Transco to explain why the pipe was at 18",
and why it was not protected in a concrete duct, and to disclose their codes
of practice. You could also blame the customer, if he knew there were pipes
at a shallow depth but failed to warn the marquee company when he asked them
to erect a marquee in his field.
The big contractors who dig up roads and who install bus lanes and
pedestrian walkways regularly hit cables accidentally and their insurers
regularly pay up. There is a general assumption that before you dig it is up
to you to check whether you are likely to hit anything.
nightjar
> our securing pins hit a 3.5" gas main at less than 18" below surface.
This
> has been fixed by Transco but we've been told to expect a bill.
>
> There is nothing in the field to indicate there is a gas supply
underground.
> There is no gas supply to the campsite, they use bottled gas. They had no
> knowledge whatsover of the pipe.
The landowner should be aware of its presence, as there ought to be a
wayleave agreement in force. However, experience suggests that landowners
are not very good at knowing exactly where underground services run. Even
some of the utilities' maps are not that reliable.
> I know we damaged the pipe etc but is there any comeback on Transco given
> the pipe wasn't marked and now sounds like it shouldn't be there anyway?
Unless it was a very old main, it would have been marked with a bright
yellow tape, buried about 150-200 mm down, where anyone digging would be
expected to find it before reaching the pipe. The tape is also usually metal
backed, so that it can be picked up with a metal detector. The onus was on
you to ensure that your actions did not endanger any underground supplies.
If it had been an 11kV electricity cable, the results would have been quite
spectacular, as well as probably fatal.
Colin Bignell
Kevin Lyons
> Unless it was a very old main, it would have been marked with a bright
> yellow tape, buried about 150-200 mm down, where anyone digging would be
> expected to find it before reaching the pipe. The tape is also usually
metal
> backed, so that it can be picked up with a metal detector. The onus was on
> you to ensure that your actions did not endanger any underground supplies.
> If it had been an 11kV electricity cable, the results would have been
quite
> spectacular, as well as probably fatal.
>
> Colin Bignell
>
Ok thanks for the advice - time to invest in cable detector i think.
Kevin
take away nojunk
so a mains should be below this, i think you have a case as when i've
accidentaly put out the lights of a village or small town, i've never had to
pay as they were only 2 ft underground. The 150-200mm suggestion is pretty
silly if you think about it, drains have to be deeper that that to stop
gardeners sticking shovels in them, and i suggest you speak to some management
at transco (get somebodies full name and just deal with them, you may have to
ring the suppliers up, which will probably be british gas) as they are very
good at passing you round the houses, good luck
Colin Wilson
You also have to bear in mind the possibility that ground levels were
altered after the pipework was laid.
It`s a campsite - has it ever been levelled etc.
I am assuming it was a low pressure gas pipe (rather than the much rarer
high pressure type, which should be at a far more substantial depth to
prevent accidental damage) - any indications who the pipe supplies ?
If they have no wayleave in force, and it`s not the supply to the site
itself, you`d have a very strong argument i`d guess as it shouldn`t have
been there !
Let us know how you get on ;-)
nightjar
"take away nojunk" <tel...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20030602161100...@mb-m27.aol.com...
> I'm a builder and transco state our pipes have to be 800mm below ground
level
> so a mains should be below this,
When I was with an Electricty Board, new installations had to be 3 feet
deep. However, we still sometimes came across distribution bus bars (the
forerunner of cables) that had been laid in the 1880s and they were often
only just below ground level. What is standard for new systems cannot be
taken as a guide to what to expect from heritage installations.
> The 150-200mm suggestion is pretty
> silly if you think about it, drains have to be deeper that that to stop
> gardeners sticking shovels in them,
Which is, of course, why the marker tape is usually quite shallow. You get
to it long before the service it protects.
Colin Bignell
Ian Henden
quite so useful if someone is driving a ruddy great stake into the ground to
hold a marquee up. Or down.
Kevin Lyons
> How can you blame Transco? Are they supposed to draw a line on the field
to
> show where their pipe is? Surely not. Are there manhole covers and valve
> covers which would indicate the presence of pipes below the ground? You
> suggest not, but have you looked properly?
>
I appreciate what you are saying but yes we (ie 10 of us) looked everywhere
on field and adjacent roads for markings and have seen none. We asked the
land owners whether they were aware of the pipe, and they are not, and have
been there for many years. I just wondered if there was a statutory
depth/obligation to mark a pipe etc.
Kevin
e_svoboda
> When I was with an Electricty Board, new installations had to be 3 feet
> deep.
and protected with bricks!, not tape.....
Colin Wilson
> > deep.
> and protected with bricks!, not tape.....
Depends on the voltage...
It`s now recommended that LV should be marked up with tape, HV should
have a foil backed tape IIRC, and it`s only when you get to EHV (33Kv)
you use slabs.
Bill
nightjar@?.?.invalid writes
>If it had been an 11kV electricity cable, the results would have been quite
>spectacular, as well as probably fatal.
>
>Colin Bignell
>
>
A tentage contractor on a golf course in Cornwall hit on a a job I was
on some years ago and there was apparently an almighty bang and a puff
of smoke. His stake was only about three feet down at the time, the
problem was that as it was a golf course there had been some landscaping
after the cable was laid and its depth had been reduced.
--
-- Bill
Cynic
<the_tod...@msn.com> wrote:
>How can you blame Transco? Are they supposed to draw a line on the field to
>show where their pipe is? Surely not. Are there manhole covers and valve
>covers which would indicate the presence of pipes below the ground? You
>suggest not, but have you looked properly?
I do know that gas companies consider damage to their pipes to be a
serious risk. They hire helicopters at considerable expense to make
weekly flights over the whole network of buried gas pipes in order to
check that there is no activity that may present a risk - digging,
fencing, building etc. It is a much sought-after job for many
helicopter pilots who wish to build their flying hours.
If there had been any indication in the previous few days that the
field was going to be used for an event, I would have expected the
helicopter crew to have alerted the gas company.
I would also have expected gas pipes to be buried far deeper than even
a large tent peg would penetrate. Certainly the depth of trenches I
have seen being dug for new gas pipes would indicate this.
I also wonder whether the owner of the field has any duty of care to
inform people that he gives permission to use the field that it
contains buried gas pipes?
--
Cynic
tarquinlinbin
Transco has a constant ongoing inspection program for high and
intermediate pressure mains. They fly them by helicopter and any
activity seen in the region of such mains is reported back and a
ground crew visits to inspect/advise/warn. Any damage to a pipe
running at these pressures could have catastophic results.
These pipes will all be steel.
Other pipes running at medium and low pressure can be other than steel
eg plastic. There are specifications for the buried depths of such
pipes etc but the depth of cover can be reuced over time by removal of
topsoil/construction/interference by other parties.
In common with all other utilities these days ,Transco has a policy of
charging for damage caused to its network.
Utilities used to be more lenient in days gone by the the amount of
damage done to utilities has rocketed since the rise of careless
cowboy contractors who lay cable or whatever and are paid by piece
rate and so tend to plough ahead ,untrained,unskilled just laying
ducts for cables or whatever. They are a menace to themselves and the
public.
If anyone propses to excavate anywhere they are well advised to
contact utlities for guidance. This includes in your own back garden
becuase you as a householder will also be charged!.
didnt get all the story on this one as i missed the earlier parts of
the thread
bnd777
"Cynic" <cy...@none.none> wrote in message
news:ab9f2a1e029e29847cbcb84c79619dc1@TeraNews...