Are we reading too much into Woolwich attack on soldier?

[Andy Wainwright]

As someone whose lived most of their lives in a garrison town, soldiers
are routinely beaten up and occasionally killed by members of the
general public.

It seems to get worse when local unemployment is high, and angry young
men go out spoling for trouble. Whether it's politics, women or just
plain jealousy of a successful young person smartly dressed and living a
dream, it doesn't really make a lot of difference.

I ask, are the politicians, security forces and media reading too much
into this- it looks increasingly more akin to traditional Squaddie
Bashing than organised Islamic terrorism. Sure , they used Islam as
their excuse, but were they not just angry young men annoyed with the
problems in their own lives and taking it out on the first person they
could find a reason to beat up or kill?

[Hotblack Desiato]

"Andy Wainwright" wrote in message news:knlmti$49h$1...@dont-email.me...

Seems reasonable. My take on it was, this guy was in the military. So he got
fucked over in a brutal manner.. that's is part of what they sign up for
isn't it? - they deal that brutality, and they get it back, that is all part
of the greater dynamic and they're well aware of it

[Mentalguy2k8]

"Andy Wainwright" <andrewricha...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:knlmti$49h$1...@dont-email.me...

> I ask, are the politicians, security forces and media reading too much
> into this- it looks increasingly more akin to traditional Squaddie Bashing
> than organised Islamic terrorism.

What, swerving off the road to run him over, then dragging him into the
middle of the road, hacking him to pieces and chopping his head off?

What "garrison town" do you live in, Mogadishu?

>Sure , they used Islam as their excuse, but were they not just angry young
>men annoyed with the problems in their own lives and taking it out on the
>first person they could find a reason to beat up or kill?

No, it's just you predictably trying to make ridiculous excuses, for
political reasons.

[walt tonne]

Islands need ethnic cleansing. Stupid shits whine while facing
genocide by
third world cockroaches. Fight or die.

[James P]

They are certainly seeing off your Brit made crap mercenaries.

[Zapp Brannigan]

"walt tonne" <tonnew...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0157a49e-b857-4fe5...@g3g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...

> Islands need ethnic cleansing. Stupid shits whine while facing
> genocide by third world cockroaches. Fight or die.
>

Yes, that's what they did. They will be grateful to hear your support.

[Bill]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 11:58:58 -0700 (PDT), walt tonne
<tonnew...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Islands need ethnic cleansing.

Well I'm not that keen on Scousers myself, but that sounds a bit
extreme, even for them...

[Mel Rowing]

On 23 May, 19:46, "Hotblack Desiato" <trash855-killf...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
> "Andy Wainwright"  wrote in messagenews:knlmti$49h$1...@dont-email.me...

> >I ask, are the politicians, security forces and media reading too much into
> >this- it looks increasingly more akin to traditional Squaddie Bashing than
> >organised Islamic terrorism. Sure , they used Islam as their excuse, but
> >were they not just angry young men annoyed with the problems in their own
> >lives and taking it out on the first person they could find a reason to
> >beat up or kill?
>
> Seems reasonable. My take on it was, this guy was in the military. So he got
> fucked over in a brutal manner.. that's is part of what they sign up for
> isn't it? - they deal that brutality, and they get it back, that is all part
> of the greater dynamic and they're well aware of it

So he deserved then!

The pity is they didn't get you or Wainright!

Soldiers accept the risks associated with their duties. On UK streets
going about their own non military business they are as entitled to be
as safe as anyone else.

Any squaddies reading these remarks must wonder why they bother. There
are some members of society who are not worth protecting.


My reaction is one of impotent anger. It annoys me that the
perpetrators of this outrage will be at this moment in time enjoying
the best treatment the NHS can offer.

Think hard on how such people treat our prisoners.

[Ron]

"James P" <jimmy...@ornage.net> wrote in message
news:knlpei$jpl$1...@dont-email.me...

Make your mind up. Isn't the usual whing that they seeing off so many of the
peace loving.

You will be pleased to hear "James" that Help for Heroes has been swamped
with donations today. Just another effect of the action of yesterdays
psychopathic clowns.

[Mel Rowing]

On 23 May, 20:40, "Ron" <R...@tediumnet.com> wrote:
> "James P" <jimmyrid...@ornage.net> wrote in message

What an excellent way to sooth one's anger!

Thank you!

[Hotblack Desiato]

"Mel Rowing" wrote in message
news:6a5d87f3-fb24-4a30...@o2g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...

Stop getting sand in your vadge.. we're currently involved in multiple
theatres of conflict, and have dealt out no end of death in various Islamic
nations over the past decade or so. The concept that some of that brutality
could occasionally actually spill in to our streets is not that difficult to
contemplate as a potential. People join the military because that's what
they want to do with their lives; they must know they're just as likely to
end up at the sharp end as the next man. At war is at war; how can there be
any security?.. there simply isn't

[Zapp Brannigan]

"Mel Rowing" <mel.r...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:6a5d87f3-fb24-4a30...@o2g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...

> Soldiers accept the risks associated with their duties. On UK streets
> going about their own non military business they are as entitled to be
> as safe as anyone else.

What about Iraqi and Afghani civilians going about their business? Are they
entitled to be safe from invasion by a foreign Crusader army?

"Iraq Body Count project (IBC) is a web-based effort to record civilian
deaths resulting from the US-led 2003 invasion of Iraq. Included are deaths
attributable to coalition and insurgent military action, sectarian violence
and criminal violence, which refers to excess civilian deaths caused by
criminal action resulting from the breakdown in law and order which followed
the coalition invasion. As of December 2012, the IBC has recorded
110,937-121,227 civilian deaths."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Body_Count_project


110,937-121,227 civilian deaths, Mel. There's going to be payback.

[Ophelia]

"Ron" <R...@tediumnet.com> wrote in message
news:519e70b1$0$1094$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk...

Yep, the website was overwhelmed with people wanting to donate:))
Amazing:)))
--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

[abelard]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 20:58:57 +0100, "Zapp Brannigan" <ZBr...@DOOP.com>
wrote:

>
>"Mel Rowing" <mel.r...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>news:6a5d87f3-fb24-4a30...@o2g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Soldiers accept the risks associated with their duties. On UK streets
>> going about their own non military business they are as entitled to be
>> as safe as anyone else.
>
>What about Iraqi and Afghani civilians going about their business? Are they
>entitled to be safe from invasion by a foreign Crusader army?

this had zero to do with irak or afghan

[abelard]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 20:57:17 +0100, "Hotblack Desiato"
<trash855...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:


>Stop getting sand in your vadge.. we're currently involved in multiple
>theatres of conflict, and have dealt out no end of death in various Islamic
>nations over the past decade or so. The concept that some of that brutality
>could occasionally actually spill in to our streets is not that difficult to
>contemplate as a potential. People join the military because that's what
>they want to do with their lives; they must know they're just as likely to
>end up at the sharp end as the next man. At war is at war; how can there be
>any security?.. there simply isn't

what? from a couple of thicks of nigerian background,
raised in britain...

you do strain so hard to post nonsense...

you sound uneducated........if you're going to post nonsense,
at least try to make it coherent

[Zapp Brannigan]

"Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote in message
news:b07b2t...@mid.individual.net...

> "Ron" <R...@tediumnet.com> wrote in message
> news:519e70b1$0$1094$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk...

>> You will be pleased to hear "James" that Help for Heroes has been swamped
>> with donations today. Just another effect of the action of yesterdays
>> psychopathic clowns.
>
> Yep, the website was overwhelmed with people wanting to donate:))
> Amazing:)))

This is very good news. Perhaps the people who wanted to send our soldiers
into a stupid, cruel and unwinnable war are starting to pay something
towards the human costs of that.

Since stepping down in 2007, Tony Blair reportedly earns �20m pa (through
dodgy offshore shell companies obviously, so that none of it is wasted on UK
schools, police or NHS). I wonder how much of his approx �100m fortune he
has contributed to Help for Heroes ?

[abelard]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 21:35:43 +0100, "Zapp Brannigan" <ZBr...@DOOP.com>
wrote:

>

>"Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote in message
>news:b07b2t...@mid.individual.net...
>> "Ron" <R...@tediumnet.com> wrote in message
>> news:519e70b1$0$1094$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk...
>
>>> You will be pleased to hear "James" that Help for Heroes has been swamped
>>> with donations today. Just another effect of the action of yesterdays
>>> psychopathic clowns.
>>
>> Yep, the website was overwhelmed with people wanting to donate:))
>> Amazing:)))
>
>This is very good news. Perhaps the people who wanted to send our soldiers
>into a stupid, cruel and unwinnable war

socialist saddam is ded...the taliban have been squished...
socialist gadafi is ded...socialist assad is in a shrinking box...
as usual, you are blathering like a frit child

> are starting to pay something
>towards the human costs of that.
>
>Since stepping down in 2007, Tony Blair reportedly earns �20m pa (through
>dodgy offshore shell companies obviously, so that none of it is wasted on UK
>schools, police or NHS). I wonder how much of his approx �100m fortune he
>has contributed to Help for Heroes ?

bliar is history...he has always been grit in the machine...

who cares...do you know anything?

[Ophelia]

"Zapp Brannigan" <ZBr...@DOOP.com> wrote in message
news:knluba$j2j$1...@dont-email.me...

>
> "Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote in message
> news:b07b2t...@mid.individual.net...
>> "Ron" <R...@tediumnet.com> wrote in message
>> news:519e70b1$0$1094$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk...
>
>>> You will be pleased to hear "James" that Help for Heroes has been
>>> swamped
>>> with donations today. Just another effect of the action of yesterdays
>>> psychopathic clowns.
>>
>> Yep, the website was overwhelmed with people wanting to donate:))
>> Amazing:)))
>
> This is very good news. Perhaps the people who wanted to send our
> soldiers into a stupid, cruel and unwinnable war are starting to pay
> something towards the human costs of that.

I doubt there is much chance of that!

> Since stepping down in 2007, Tony Blair reportedly earns �20m pa (through
> dodgy offshore shell companies obviously, so that none of it is wasted on
> UK schools, police or NHS). I wonder how much of his approx �100m fortune
> he has contributed to Help for Heroes ?

He is good a strutting the world, but he will never put his safety or a
single penny of his own at risk.

--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

[Osric]

>
> You will be pleased to hear "James" that Help for Heroes has been
> swamped with donations today.

I'm sure the MOD will be delighted to see more of its property portfolio
lavishly restored. Shame he wasn't wearing a Royal British Legion T-shirt.


--


Osric



THE BORDERS OF MY COUNTRY
RUN AROUND THE SOLES OF MY FEET

[Bill]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 21:35:43 +0100, "Zapp Brannigan" <ZBr...@DOOP.com>
wrote:

>Since stepping down in 2007, Tony Blair reportedly earns �20m pa (through
>dodgy offshore shell companies obviously, so that none of it is wasted on UK
>schools, police or NHS).

Cite please.

[True Blue]

On May 23, 8:57 pm, "Hotblack Desiato" <trash855-killf...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

> any security?.. there simply isn't- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm wondering if you'd be sailing on the same tack if the drummer had
gouged the first guy and shot the second with the first's weapon.
Something tells me you would now be squealing "no fair".

[Bill]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 14:36:46 -0700 (PDT), True Blue
<garyb...@googlemail.com> wrote:


>I'm wondering if you'd be sailing on the same tack if the drummer had
>gouged the first guy and shot the second with the first's weapon.
>Something tells me you would now be squealing "no fair".

Possibly.

The gun exploded and injured the operator when he tried to fire it.

The poor kid never had a chance anyway, they hit him with the car
first...

[Zapp Brannigan]

"Bill" <black...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:j22tp8pu15m95gqse...@4ax.com...

"Tony Blair earned more than �20?million last year from advising business
chiefs and foreign governments.... "
<www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167038>

"income channelled through a complex network of firms and partnerships
controlled by Blair rose more than 40% last year to more than �12m"
<www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jan/07/blair-inc-rise-earnings>

"Former Labour Prime Minister Tony Blair could have earned as much as
�80million since leaving office five years ago."
<www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/celebritymoney/article-2167655>

"Windrush Ventures is one of at least 12 companies and partnerships
controlled by Mr Blair, who is thought to have channelled tens of millions
of pounds through his various firms since leaving Downing Street in June
2007."
<www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/blairs-company-paid-just-315000-tax-on-income-of-more-than-12m-6287001.html>

"His earnings this year alone could hit �15million, on top of the estimated
�15million he has raked in since standing aside as PM in 2007. A �further
�15million next year through Mr Blair's jobs, � speeches and expanding
property empire would take his estimated family fortune to �45million"
<www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tony-blairs-fortune-to-treble-to-45million-198253>

"Mr Blair has established a complex web of companies, designed, according to
accountants, to hide just how much money he makes and from where his money
comes. He has denied being "super rich", but having built up a property
portfolio of several homes and two multimillion-pound businesses, it is
expected that he will enter the rich-lists for the first time this year with
a fortune of somewhere between �35?million and �60?million."
<www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/9797837/Tony-Blair-widens-his-web-via-the-stock-markets.html>

[geopelia]

"Mel Rowing" <mel.r...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:6a5d87f3-fb24-4a30...@o2g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...

If the hangman can't deal with them these days, just let the hospital put
them on the Liverpool Care program.

[Bill]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 23:46:11 +0100, "Zapp Brannigan" <ZBr...@DOOP.com>

Thanks, that really is scandalous.

[Vidcapper]

On 23/05/2013 20:39, Mel Rowing wrote:

>
> Any squaddies reading these remarks must wonder why they bother. There
> are some members of society who are not worth protecting.
>
> My reaction is one of impotent anger. It annoys me that the
> perpetrators of this outrage will be at this moment in time enjoying
> the best treatment the NHS can offer.
>
> Think hard on how such people treat our prisoners.
>

They should say to the attackers 'Tell us *everything* you know ASAP, or
we will dump you defenceless in Woolwich barracks, and let the soldiers
deal with you however they see fit!'

--
Regards,

Paul Hyett

[Mel Rowing]

On 23 May, 21:04, "Ophelia" <Ophe...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote:
> "Ron" <R...@tediumnet.com> wrote in message
>
> news:519e70b1$0$1094$5b6a...@news.zen.co.uk...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> > "James P" <jimmyrid...@ornage.net> wrote in message

> >news:knlpei$jpl$1...@dont-email.me...
> >> On 23/05/2013 19:58, walt tonne wrote:
> >>> Islands need ethnic cleansing. Stupid shits whine while facing
> >>> genocide by
> >>> third world cockroaches. Fight or die.
>
> >> They are certainly seeing off your Brit made crap mercenaries.
>
> > Make your mind up. Isn't the usual whing that they seeing off so many of
> > the peace loving.
>
> > You will be pleased to hear "James" that Help for Heroes has been swamped
> > with donations today. Just another effect of the action of yesterdays
> > psychopathic clowns.
>
> Yep, the website was overwhelmed with people wanting to donate:))
> Amazing:)))
> --
> --http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

So much better and so much more constructive than a spray of flowers
that will be dead and gone within days.

[Mel Rowing]

On 23 May, 20:57, "Hotblack Desiato" <trash855-killf...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

What they know, what they don't know, they do a worthwhile job.

There is a difference between them and the Taliban or Iraquis.

They are ours!

[True Blue]

On May 24, 12:16 am, Bill <blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 May 2013 23:46:11 +0100, "Zapp Brannigan" <ZBr...@DOOP.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> >"Bill" <blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote in message

> >news:j22tp8pu15m95gqse...@4ax.com...
> >> On Thu, 23 May 2013 21:35:43 +0100, "Zapp Brannigan" <ZBr...@DOOP.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>>Since stepping down in 2007, Tony Blair reportedly earns £20m pa (through
> >>>dodgy offshore shell companies obviously, so that none of it is wasted on
> >>>UK
> >>>schools, police or NHS).
>
> >> Cite please.
>
> >"Tony Blair earned more than £20?million last year from advising business
> >chiefs and foreign governments.... "
> ><www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167038>
>
> >"income channelled through a complex network of firms and partnerships
> >controlled by Blair rose more than 40% last year to more than £12m"
> ><www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jan/07/blair-inc-rise-earnings>
>
> >"Former Labour Prime Minister Tony Blair could have earned as much as
> >£80million since leaving office five years ago."
> ><www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/celebritymoney/article-2167655>
>
> >"Windrush Ventures is one of at least 12 companies and partnerships
> >controlled by Mr Blair, who is thought to have channelled tens of millions
> >of pounds through his various firms since leaving Downing Street in June
> >2007."

> ><www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/blairs-company-paid-just-31500...>

>
> >"His earnings this year alone could hit £15million, on top of the estimated
> >£15million he has raked in since standing aside as PM in 2007.  A ­further
> >£15million next year through Mr Blair's jobs, ­ speeches and expanding
> >property empire would take his estimated family fortune to £45million"

> ><www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tony-blairs-fortune-to-treble-to-45mill...>

>
> >"Mr Blair has established a complex web of companies, designed, according to
> >accountants, to hide just how much money he makes and from where his money
> >comes.  He has denied being "super rich", but having built up a property
> >portfolio of several homes and two multimillion-pound businesses, it is
> >expected that he will enter the rich-lists for the first time this year with
> >a fortune of somewhere between £35?million and £60?million."

> ><www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/9797837/Tony-Blair-widen...>
>
> Thanks,  that really is scandalous.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

He hasn't done anything illegal, though. Yes, what he's doing is
hypocritical in an epic sense, given what he purported to "stand for"
for all his political life, but this is Tony Blair ffs - why would
anyone still be under any illusions about this shyster's behaviour?

His most egracious stunt imo, was to pay-off his £40k mortgage in
Trimdon (and thus lose his 2nd home allowance) and promptly remortgage
it for twice its then value (£150k) and started claiming 2nd HA once
again. So, we effectively started paying off the instalments on a
£300k loan which the Blairs used to kick off their Chelsea property
portfolio. Again, nothing illegal at all.

It is worth noting that he alone amongst all parliamentarians of that
era, did not have The Telegraph examine his expenses. They were
shredded.

[Ophelia]

"True Blue" <garyb...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:2f44d887-c3dd-4c74...@w5g2000vbd.googlegroups.com...

Aye I noticed!

--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

[abelard]

brilliant observation

[geopelia]

"Mentalguy2k8" <Mental...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:knloi9$efl$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> "Andy Wainwright" <andrewricha...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message

> news:knlmti$49h$1...@dont-email.me...
>
>> I ask, are the politicians, security forces and media reading too much
>> into this- it looks increasingly more akin to traditional Squaddie
>> Bashing than organised Islamic terrorism.
>

> What, swerving off the road to run him over, then dragging him into the
> middle of the road, hacking him to pieces and chopping his head off?
>
> What "garrison town" do you live in, Mogadishu?

>
>>Sure , they used Islam as their excuse, but were they not just angry young
>>men annoyed with the problems in their own lives and taking it out on the
>>first person they could find a reason to beat up or kill?
>

> No, it's just you predictably trying to make ridiculous excuses, for
> political reasons.
>

They weren't even Afghans or Arabs, just some clueless Nigerians.

[Bill]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 00:35:52 +1200, "geopelia" <geop...@nowhere.com>
wrote:

They weren't that Nigerian.

One was born here and the other one had lived here for years and had
been educated here.

It's the deeply worrying part of this whole business.

What makes a man so alienated from society that he does something like
this when someone with a very similar background wouldn't even
consider it, no matter what his religion...

[Osric]

Indeed so, in fact the facillitiea will last long after the flow of
injured slows to a trickle, which will likely be about the same time as
the last lovingly restored chandelier is put in place. Still I'm sure
they'll make excellent Defence Academies.

What will last even longer, however, will be the inadequate funding for
dealing with ex-servicemen's long term needs. But then caring for 45
year old mentally unstable winos from yesterday's wars lacks the
requisite glamour, and anyway that's what prisons are for.

[Ophelia]

"abelard" <abel...@abelard.org> wrote in message
news:hvkup8h4dlbmcf5r2...@4ax.com...

Awwwwww is Norman Wells your hero LOLOL. His fans are crawling out of the
woodwork <g> Tell you what, I will stick you in with Norman, you will be
happy there:)))
--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

[pull...@yahoo.com]

Go ask Polly Toynbee I'm sure she'll fill you in.

[Cynic]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 12:39:17 -0700 (PDT), Mel Rowing
<mel.r...@btinternet.com> wrote:

>Any squaddies reading these remarks must wonder why they bother.

And so they should. What harm would it do to anyone in this country
if they *didn't* bother with their activities in Afghanistan or Iraq?

I can however think of harm that their "bothering" is causing.

--
Cynic

[Cynic]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 22:10:00 +0200, abelard <abel...@abelard.org>
wrote:

>>What about Iraqi and Afghani civilians going about their business? Are they
>>entitled to be safe from invasion by a foreign Crusader army?
>
>this had zero to do with irak or afghan

On the contrary. It was the sole reason given for carrying out the
attack.

--
Cynic

[abelard]

i knew i could prove you a liar if i provoked you enough...

[abelard]

indeed...the collective should pay...

individual actions undermine the collective

[abelard]

you can be seriously ridiculous...

you can't read minds...
neither can anyone sane take seriously the babblings of a couple
of alienated uk chavs...

[Osric]

You don't half talk bollocks abelard.

This has got nothing to do with a preference for the collective over the
individual, quite the reverse, its about the generosity of the
individual being sequestered by the collective, due to the charity in
question having an unhealthily close relationship with the collective.

[abelard]

then instead of blathering you could instead analyse what help
for heroes actually does...and how they supervise expenditures

merely making vague assertions does not cut it...

>due to the charity in
>question having an unhealthily close relationship with the collective.

then instead of blathering you could instead analyse what help
for heroes actually does...and how they supervise expenditures...

merely making vague assertions does not cut it...

[Mel Rowing]

You do talk a load of tripe!

How do you know?

I'll bet you don't even know the names of the trustees who you choose
to libel.

[Steve O]

On 23/05/2013 19:46, Hotblack Desiato wrote:
>
>
> "Andy Wainwright" wrote in message news:knlmti$49h$1...@dont-email.me...
>
>> As someone whose lived most of their lives in a garrison town,
>> soldiers are routinely beaten up and occasionally killed by members of
>> the general public.
>>
>> It seems to get worse when local unemployment is high, and angry young
>> men go out spoling for trouble. Whether it's politics, women or just
>> plain jealousy of a successful young person smartly dressed and living
>> a dream, it doesn't really make a lot of difference.

>>
>> I ask, are the politicians, security forces and media reading too much
>> into this- it looks increasingly more akin to traditional Squaddie

>> Bashing than organised Islamic terrorism. Sure , they used Islam as

>> their excuse, but were they not just angry young men annoyed with the
>> problems in their own lives and taking it out on the first person they
>> could find a reason to beat up or kill?
>

> Seems reasonable. My take on it was, this guy was in the military. So he
> got fucked over in a brutal manner.. that's is part of what they sign up
> for isn't it? - they deal that brutality, and they get it back, that is
> all part of the greater dynamic and they're well aware of it

Fuckwit.

[pensive hamster]

On May 24, 1:48 pm, Bill <blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]

> One was born here and the other one had lived here for years and had
> been educated here.
>
> It's the deeply worrying part of this whole business.
>
> What makes a man so alienated from society that he does something like
> this when someone with a very similar background wouldn't even
> consider it,  no matter what his religion...

I think extreme, violent Islamism is a cult. They have the same kind
of certainty that their view of reality is the Truth, as
Scientologists etc. have. They are brainwashed.

They believe this world is a dream or an illusion, and that it is
totally corrupt, the realm of the devil. Also, this life is a kind of
test of their faith; only if they are prepared to die for the Truth,
will they be accepted into heaven.

Some links:

Former Mujaheddin member and now author and academic Dr. Masoud
Banisadr stated in a May 2005 speech in Spain :
http://www.banisadr.info/speechSpain.htm

' If you ask me: are all cults a terrorist organisation? My answer
is no as there are many peaceful cults at present around the world and
in the history of mankind. But if you ask me are all terrorist
organisations, some sort of cult? my answer is yes. Even if they start
as ordinary modern political party or organisation, to prepare and
force their members to act without asking any moral question and act
selflessly for the cause of the group and ignore all the ethical,
cultural, moral or religious code of the society and humanity, those
organisations have to change into a cult. Therefore to understand an
extremist or a terrorist organisation one has to learn about a Cult.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22640614
24 May 2013
'In the aftermath of the Woolwich attack in which a British soldier
was killed, apparently at the hands of Islamist fundamentalists,
Quilliam Foundation researcher Dr Usama Hasan argues that moderates
must do more to win over Muslim youth.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult#Destructive_cults_and_terrorism
'... In an article on Al Qaida published in The Times, Mary Ann
Sieghart wrote that al-Qaida resembles a "classic cult", commenting:
"Al-Qaida fits all the official definitions of a cult. It
indoctrinates its members; it forms a closed, totalitarian society; it
has a self-appointed, messianic and charismatic leader; and it
believes that the ends justify the means."[88] A similar comparison
was made by former UK Home Secretary Charles Clarke, as well as UK
Home Secretary John Reid, who stated that "..fanatics are looking to
groom and brainwash children, including your children, for suicide
bombings, grooming them to kill themselves in order to murder
others."[89][90] ...'

[Hotblack Desiato]

"True Blue" wrote in message
news:fae10531-5bb7-4a66...@d6g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...

On May 23, 8:57 pm, "Hotblack Desiato" <trash855-killf...@yahoo.co.uk>

wrote:
>> "Mel Rowing" wrote in message
>>
>> news:6a5d87f3-fb24-4a30...@o2g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> On 23 May, 19:46, "Hotblack Desiato" <trash855-killf...@yahoo.co.uk>

>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > "Andy Wainwright" wrote in messagenews:knlmti$49h$1...@dont-email.me...

>> >> >I ask, are the politicians, security forces and media reading too
>> >> >much
>> >> >into
>> >> >this- it looks increasingly more akin to traditional Squaddie Bashing
>> >> >than
>> >> >organised Islamic terrorism. Sure , they used Islam as their excuse,
>> >> >but
>> >> >were they not just angry young men annoyed with the problems in their
>> >> >own
>> >> >lives and taking it out on the first person they could find a reason
>> >> >to
>> >> >beat up or kill?
>>
>> >> Seems reasonable. My take on it was, this guy was in the military. So
>> >> he
>> >> got
>> >> fucked over in a brutal manner.. that's is part of what they sign up
>> >> for
>> >> isn't it? - they deal that brutality, and they get it back, that is
>> >> all
>> >> part
>> >> of the greater dynamic and they're well aware of it
>>

>> >So he deserved then!
>>
>> >The pity is they didn't get you or Wainright!
>>
>> >Soldiers accept the risks associated with their duties. On UK streets
>> >going about their own non military business they are as entitled to be
>> >as safe as anyone else.
>>
>> >Any squaddies reading these remarks must wonder why they bother. There
>> >are some members of society who are not worth protecting.
>>
>> >My reaction is one of impotent anger. It annoys me that the
>> >perpetrators of this outrage will be at this moment in time enjoying
>> >the best treatment the NHS can offer.
>>
>> > Think hard on how such people treat our prisoners.
>>
>> Stop getting sand in your vadge.. we're currently involved in multiple
>> theatres of conflict, and have dealt out no end of death in various
>> Islamic
>> nations over the past decade or so. The concept that some of that
>> brutality
>> could occasionally actually spill in to our streets is not that difficult
>> to
>> contemplate as a potential. People join the military because that's what
>> they want to do with their lives; they must know they're just as likely
>> to
>> end up at the sharp end as the next man. At war is at war; how can there
>> be

>> any security?.. there simply isn't- Hide quoted text -

>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>

>I'm wondering if you'd be sailing on the same tack if the drummer had
>gouged the first guy and shot the second with the first's weapon.
>Something tells me you would now be squealing "no fair".

I think you're reading me wrong. It goes back to this concept of either
being with us or against us and not everyone falls in to one or the other of
those camps. I would have to call your scenario 'fair game' on a level
personal to the soldier.. he's being attacked in a lethal manner. However, I
would say, the loss of life probably wouldn't have happened at all if we
hadn't started whimsical conflicts with highly questionable motives in the
first place

[Osric]

Thats rich coming from someone whose every post is a vague assertion for
fear of having to defend a position. My post contained considerably more
substance than your ideologically driven slogan. My criticism of Help
for Heroes is that it has spent a fortune on renovating expensive MOD
buildings, whose focus is on immediate care of serving soldiers in
facilities that will massively over-supply demand in a matter of months.
Ex-servicemen have no right of treatment in these facilities and the
focus on such facilities ignores the problems ex servicemen face for
years afterwards. All of which could be inferred from the original post.
The founders of Help for Heroes were personal friends of the then
serving Chief of Staff which makes for the sort of cosy relationship
with the state you claim to revile.

I'm not the only one to criticise Help for Heroes for their unhealthy
relationship with the MOD and their skewed priorities, if you were
better informed you'd be familiar with it already. Even the traditional
cheerleaders for the armed services have questioned it. Here's a source
that demonstrates at least how the criticism is neither leftist nor
obscure.

http://tinyurl.com/c3xnx6t

Here's some more from more reputable sources:

http://tinyurl.com/77sv6yh

http://tinyurl.com/o749wmu

and some more

http://tinyurl.com/3axh3fm

http://tinyurl.com/oaakrod

With all the legion of poorly managed and resourced problems arising out
of service in the military H4H's concentration on serving soldiers for
whom the state has an ongoing liability in any event, and the volume of
funds directed into renovating listed buildings, of use on such a scale
only in the short term, is skewed. H4H's close personal and professional
association with the MOD is questionable especially given ex-servicemen
have no right to access the facilities. This amounts to subsidy to the
state by absolving it of a chunk of its liabilities whilst leaving the
long term problems faced by ex-servicemen, that really do require
charitable assistance, in a comparatively scandalous state of neglect.

Clear enough for you?

[AlanG]

Quite correct.
Murder is murder and the killers should be punished according to law.
However I wonder if this killing would have taken place if the killers
of Baha Mousa had not got off, If the officers who encouraged torture
of Iraq prisoners were court martialed, if the killers of civilian men
women and children in Afghanistan faced courts.

And the halfwits calling for death to all muslims are no better than
the fundamentalist mullahs who call on death for non muslims. In fact
they are worse because they claim to want peace and are prepared to
kill innocents to get it..

[abelard]

your usual dodging is noted...rest binned unread...
nah, give the poor fellow a chance

>My post contained considerably more
>substance than your ideologically driven slogan. My criticism of Help
>for Heroes is that it has spent a fortune on renovating expensive MOD
>buildings, whose focus is on immediate care of serving soldiers in
>facilities that will massively over-supply demand in a matter of months.
>Ex-servicemen have no right of treatment in these facilities and the
>focus on such facilities ignores the problems ex servicemen face for
>years afterwards. All of which could be inferred from the original post.
>The founders of Help for Heroes were personal friends of the then
>serving Chief of Staff which makes for the sort of cosy relationship
>with the state you claim to revile.
>
>I'm not the only one to criticise Help for Heroes for their unhealthy
>relationship with the MOD and their skewed priorities, if you were
>better informed you'd be familiar with it already. Even the traditional
>cheerleaders for the armed services have questioned it. Here's a source
>that demonstrates at least how the criticism is neither leftist nor
>obscure.
>
>http://tinyurl.com/c3xnx6t
>
>Here's some more from more reputable sources:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/77sv6yh
>
>http://tinyurl.com/o749wmu

skip to these two...no mention of help for heroes in either...

so just more of your blathering then...

you have just reinforced my disdain for you

[Osric]

Ho ho ho, another ignominious retreat. Now we're in your content free
comfort zone you'll doubtless become voluble.

--

[abelard]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 18:45:24 +0100, Osric <os...@bollocks.com> wrote:

>Ho ho ho, another ignominious retreat. Now we're in your content free
>comfort zone you'll doubtless become voluble.

yes...i know you were lying

[Tommy Atkins]

On 24 May, 05:48, Bill <blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's the deeply worrying part of this whole business.
>
> What makes a man so alienated from society that he does something like
> this when someone with a very similar background wouldn't even
> consider it,  no matter what his religion...

One was born black in a white nation, uninvited and poor to parents
who were embarrassingly helpless and probably jobless, and has endured
unemployment and has no future except this desperate and wrong-headed
notion of a fundamentalist religion; the other is born black into a
white nation but in educated cultured professional middle-class
family, with confident expectations of college education and home
ownership.

This simple division exists and has effects in every nation on earth.

[Osric]

Yawn...

[Claire]

On May 23, 7:28 pm, Andy Wainwright

<andrewrichardwainwri...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> As someone whose lived most of their lives in a garrison town, soldiers
> are routinely beaten up and occasionally killed by members of the
> general public.
>
> It seems to get worse when local unemployment is high, and angry young
> men go out spoling for trouble. Whether it's politics, women or just
> plain jealousy of a successful young person smartly dressed and living a
> dream, it doesn't really make a lot of difference.
>

> I ask, are the politicians, security forces and media reading too much
> into this- it looks increasingly more akin to traditional Squaddie Bashing

With respect Andy, this does appear to be a rather minimising
statement on your part. The victim was hacked to death with machetes
and knives and the perpetrators also sought an armed confrontation
with the police. Whatever the motive or whoever the victim, this is
one of the most serious of crimes.

>than organised Islamic terrorism.
> Sure , they used Islam as
> their excuse, but were they not just angry young men >annoyed with the
> problems in their own lives and taking it out on the >first person they
> could find a reason to beat up or kill?

In reality I suspect it is both - angry young men with a cause. A
cause can give people an excuse to use violence if they are that way
inclined anyway.

[DVH]

Why weren't they off in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban who cause 80%
of civilian deaths there?

>
> And the halfwits calling for death to all muslims are no better than
> the fundamentalist mullahs who call on death for non muslims. In fact
> they are worse because they claim to want peace and are prepared to
> kill innocents to get it..

Like the religion of peace, you mean?

[DVH]

Yes, very puzzling that this fellow, who was into drugs and gangs and
listened to insane preachers, should go out and kill somebody.

[Claire]

On May 23, 8:39 pm, Mel Rowing <mel.row...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On 23 May, 19:46, "Hotblack Desiato" <trash855-killf...@yahoo.co.uk>
> wrote:
>

> > "Andy Wainwright"  wrote in messagenews:knlmti$49h$1...@dont-email.me...

> > >I ask, are the politicians, security forces and media reading too much into
> > >this- it looks increasingly more akin to traditional Squaddie Bashing than

> > >organised Islamic terrorism. Sure , they used Islam as their excuse, but

> > >were they not just angry young men annoyed with the problems in their own
> > >lives and taking it out on the first person they could find a reason to
> > >beat up or kill?
>

> > Seems reasonable. My take on it was, this guy was in the military. So he got
> > fucked over in a brutal manner.. that's is part of what they sign up for
> > isn't it? - they deal that brutality, and they get it back, that is all part
> > of the greater dynamic and they're well aware of it
>
> So he deserved then!

Nobody deserves to die like that.

> The pity is they didn't get you or Wainright!

> Soldiers accept the risks associated with their duties. On UK streets
> going about their own non military business they are as entitled to be
> as safe as anyone else.

A lot of them with PTSD aren't able to. Killing isn't a 9 to 5 job I
guess - it is going to affect other parts of people's lives. I agree
that even in war there are codes of decency though. The number of
military situations our country gets into is not good. How can you
fight terror with terror? Even so, more Muslims have been killed by
other Muslims than by the West but it is easier to blame the outsider,
because if it is your own problem they have to solve it, and it is a
lot more complicated than "getting you out of our lands"

>
> Any squaddies reading these remarks must wonder >why they bother.

They should. How can they kill people and not wonder why? Surely that
is a moral duty? If they didn't they "were just following orders" and
could do anything. I struggle to relate to people joining the Army
these days. Why do people join an Army they know is always involved in
foolhardy military operations? The average squaddy does not know much
about politics so what is their motivation? From what I can tell it is
the thrill of danger, the belief that its a way to demonstrate their
manhood and the fact that their mates are joining too? These are young
uneducated men who feel they have few opportunities in life and are
looking for adventure as far as I can see. I guess you could argue "it
was ever thus", but there it is.

> are some members of society who are not worth >protecting.



>
> My reaction is one of impotent anger. It annoys me >that the
> perpetrators of this outrage will be at this moment in >time enjoying
> the best treatment the NHS can offer.

Our compassion for our enamies is a sign of moral strength over them I
think. They hate us, but at the end of the day they will never
dominate us - not because of where our troops are, but because for all
our faults, we have the moral high-ground.

[Claire]

On May 24, 7:19 pm, DVH <d...@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote:
> On 24/05/2013 13:48, Bill wrote:
>
>
>

> > On Sat, 25 May 2013 00:35:52 +1200, "geopelia" <geope...@nowhere.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >> "Mentalguy2k8" <Mentalguy...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>news:knloi9$efl$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> >>> "Andy Wainwright" <andrewrichardwainwri...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message

> >>>news:knlmti$49h$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> >>>> I ask, are the politicians, security forces and media reading too much
> >>>> into this- it looks increasingly more akin to traditional Squaddie
> >>>> Bashing than organised Islamic terrorism.
>
> >>> What, swerving off the road to run him over, then dragging him into the
> >>> middle of the road, hacking him to pieces and chopping his head off?
>
> >>> What "garrison town" do you live in, Mogadishu?
>
> >>>> Sure , they used Islam as their excuse, but were they not just angry young
> >>>> men annoyed with the problems in their own lives and taking it out on the
> >>>> first person they could find a reason to beat up or kill?
>
> >>> No, it's just you predictably trying to make ridiculous excuses, for
> >>> political reasons.
>
> >> They weren't even Afghans or Arabs, just some clueless Nigerians.
>
> > They weren't that Nigerian.
>
> > One was born here and the other one had lived here for years and had
> > been educated here.
>
> > It's the deeply worrying part of this whole business.
>
> > What makes a man so alienated from society that he does something like
> > this when someone with a very similar background wouldn't even
> > consider it,  no matter what his religion...
>
> Yes, very puzzling that this fellow, who was into drugs and gangs and
> listened to insane preachers, should go out and kill somebody.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxzCzU5Dm7c

;-)

[BurfordTJustice]

"DVH" <d...@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote in message
news:519fadfd$0$35137$862e...@ngroups.net...

--
You appeasment plan is a faliure. Bet you are so proud.

[DVH]

We don't.

> Even so, more Muslims have been killed by
> other Muslims than by the West but it is easier to blame the outsider,
> because if it is your own problem they have to solve it, and it is a
> lot more complicated than "getting you out of our lands"
>
>>
>> Any squaddies reading these remarks must wonder >why they bother.
>
> They should. How can they kill people and not wonder why? Surely that
> is a moral duty? If they didn't they "were just following orders" and
> could do anything. I struggle to relate to people joining the Army
> these days. Why do people join an Army they know is always involved in
> foolhardy military operations?

Ask them.

Because the pay is better than the dole.

Because the majority of people are generally grateful for your presence.

Because it has moments of fun.

Because the TV adverts are exciting.

Because your cousin did.

Because you learn skills and trades.

> The average squaddy does not know much
> about politics so what is their motivation? From what I can tell it is
> the thrill of danger, the belief that its a way to demonstrate their
> manhood and the fact that their mates are joining too? These are young
> uneducated men who feel they have few opportunities in life and are
> looking for adventure as far as I can see. I guess you could argue "it
> was ever thus", but there it is.

What's wrong with looking for adventure?

>
>> are some members of society who are not worth >protecting.
>
>
>
>>
>> My reaction is one of impotent anger. It annoys me >that the
>> perpetrators of this outrage will be at this moment in >time enjoying
>> the best treatment the NHS can offer.
>
> Our compassion for our enamies is a sign of moral strength over them I
> think.

Say that when one of them's about to slit your throat.

[Andy Wainwright]

Fair points. The killing was certainly both barbaric and to a large
extent premeditated.

However, I think it was more a personal thing than a political or
religious one. The killers were of Nigerian origin, and there's been a
major offensive against Islamist rebel groups there. Nothing involving
the British, but enough possibly to push someone in a dodgy state of
mind over the edge.

In Northern Ireland, I believe many of the brutal attacks against army
and police there weren't carried out by official members of paramilitary
groups, but lads with personal problems. Because of unemployment etc,
they came to see the security forces as an object of hate and repression
whether they actually had any involvement in their problems or not.

[DVH]

> You appeasment plan is a faliure. Bet you are so proud.

You grammar up your arse. Bet you mom so proud.

[Bill]

An awful lot of people do that sort of thing.

So far one has done that...

[Claire]

On May 24, 8:47 pm, Andy Wainwright

Can we assume the two are mutually exclusive?

[DVH]

Taking on the police is the crime du jour in case you hadn't noticed.

Throwing grenades at them, shooting shotguns at them, challenging about
fourteen with a machete, and so on.

[AlanG]

Why are british troops there killing the rest?

>
>>
>> And the halfwits calling for death to all muslims are no better than
>> the fundamentalist mullahs who call on death for non muslims. In fact
>> they are worse because they claim to want peace and are prepared to
>> kill innocents to get it..
>
>Like the religion of peace, you mean?

I don't see much 'turn the other cheek' from the christians with guns
either

[DVH]

They're not.

I'll let you work out why that's the case...

[AlanG]

Really?
British troops have killed no civilians in either Iraq or Afghanistan?
Baha Mousa was not tortured and murdered by men of the Lancastrian
regiment?

[Death To Terrorists]

On Thu, 23 May 2013 20:58:57 +0100, "Zapp Brannigan" <ZBr...@DOOP.com> wrote:

>
>"Mel Rowing" <mel.r...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>news:6a5d87f3-fb24-4a30...@o2g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>

>> Soldiers accept the risks associated with their duties. On UK streets
>> going about their own non military business they are as entitled to be
>> as safe as anyone else.
>

>What about Iraqi and Afghani civilians going about their business? Are they
>entitled to be safe from invasion by a foreign Crusader army?
>
>"Iraq Body Count project (IBC) is a web-based effort to record civilian
>deaths resulting from the US-led 2003 invasion of Iraq. Included are deaths
>attributable to coalition and insurgent military action, sectarian violence
>and criminal violence, which refers to excess civilian deaths caused by
>criminal action resulting from the breakdown in law and order which followed
>the coalition invasion. As of December 2012, the IBC has recorded
>110,937-121,227 civilian deaths."
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Body_Count_project
>
>
>110,937-121,227 civilian deaths, Mel. There's going to be payback.

All religions are universally shit and continue to cause more wars than anything
else.

121,227 deaths is nowhere near enough. There are 30 million in Iraq, 95%+ being
muzzies almost all the rest being some other fuckwit religion.

There are 1.5 billion of the muzzie fuckers worldwide, preaching endless shite
about their pretend person who should have been behind bars fed bromine five
times a day rather than let loose on the streets.

Elimination of them and all the other religious types has to be top priority.
and the only solution to this issue will need widespread use of nuclear
warheads.

Deporting all the muzziies back to Mecca and nuking the middle east taking the
jews and the muzzies out would make a massive impact on population growth,
reducing world hunger and ensuring survival of those that don't breed like
fucking rabbits.




--

[The Todal]

On 24/05/2013 19:56, Claire wrote:

>

> They should. How can they kill people and not wonder why? Surely that
> is a moral duty? If they didn't they "were just following orders" and
> could do anything. I struggle to relate to people joining the Army
> these days. Why do people join an Army they know is always involved in
> foolhardy military operations? The average squaddy does not know much
> about politics so what is their motivation? From what I can tell it is
> the thrill of danger, the belief that its a way to demonstrate their
> manhood and the fact that their mates are joining too? These are young
> uneducated men who feel they have few opportunities in life and are
> looking for adventure as far as I can see. I guess you could argue "it
> was ever thus", but there it is.
>

I don't think soldiers are necessarily "uneducated". That implies that
anyone with some GCSEs and A levels will find themselves something
better than soldiering - perhaps a trainee managership at Sainsburys or
working in an estate agents.

In the USA it is quite normal for youngsters to join the Army because
that means the Army will pay their college fees. If they can survive a
few tours of duty they may end up with a degree.

We ought to honour and respect our soldiers - not view them as ignorant
uneducated squaddies looking for an excuse to shoot at people.

The politicians who recklessly send them into unnecessary conflicts to
boost the career of a politician or the votes of a political party -
they are the ones who ought to be despised.

[Ste]

In fact we know that Bliar did it for neither reason. He was simply on
a mission from God. Just another bastard traitor to the interests of
ordinary British people.

[Old Jinglebollocks]

THE PATRICK HACKETT DIMENSION

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


Patrick Hackett is an embarrassment to everybody, most of all to the
IRA, and people want to forget him.


I do not want to forget Patrick Hackett. I deal in realities. The
Patrick Hackett affair happened and is instructive.


For one thing, I doubt if Patrick Hackett is getting any financial
aid
from Sinn Fein for the sacrifice he made for ‘the cause’ ……………… just
as Seamus Twomey was abandoned to ill health and poverty in old age
by
the IRA, after Seamus Twomey had devoted his whole life to ‘the
cause’
at great personal cost.


So beware of getting involved with guerrilla organisations who will
suck you dry and then abandon you to ill health and poverty in old
age, like the IRA did to Seamus Twomey and Patrick Hackett.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------


I was living in London in the 1970s. The report in the Evening
Standard newspaper the day after Patrick Hackett’s heroic struggle
for
Irish freedom…….. said that Patrick Hackett somehow jumped out of the
train from a height, as the train was stopped between stations with
no
platform, and then Patrick Hackett ran away to a considerable
distance.


Yet, in hospital that night, the good doctors decided that Patrick
Hackett’s leg had to be amputated.


The IRA never complained about the amputation of Patrick Hackett’s
leg, although it was a bit anomalous, considering that he was able to
jump out of the train from a height and to run away to such a
considerable distance, on a leg that supposedly needed to be
amputated
later that day.


But the IRA always only wanted to bury the story of Patrick Hackett.


He is not in their ‘hall of fame.’


-------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Muslim terrorists who are in hospital in London now…….


………do they need a leg amputated, Doctor, the same way that Patrick
Hackett needed a leg amputated?


It's been said that the doctors and nurses who are forced to treat
those killers are among the saddest victims..........


Not necessarily. If they perform the same act on those killers as the
doctors did on Patrick Hackett, they will be doing us all a service
and giving the killers something to ponder for the rest of their
lives..... just as Patrick Hackett has something to think about for
the rest of his life.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.irish/msg/9e0bea503bc1a11...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

[DVH]

On 25/05/2013 09:29, AlanG wrote:

>>>>
>>>> Why weren't they off in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban who cause 80%
>>>> of civilian deaths there?
>>>
>>> Why are british troops there killing the rest?
>>
>> They're not.
>
> Really?
> British troops have killed no civilians in either Iraq or Afghanistan?

Why do you claim that?

[AlanG]

Did you miss the question mark?
Or were you off sick when they did question marks and commas?

[DVH]

No, I saw it. You were trying to put words in my mouth in your usual
dishonest way.

[AlanG]

I asked a question in a recognised form. Howabout you answer it
instead of dodging like a politician.

Then explain why you believe british soldiers torturing and killing
people in other countries gives no reason to charge them with murder.

[DVH]

On 25/05/2013 16:29, AlanG wrote:
> On Sat, 25 May 2013 16:04:49 +0100, DVH <d...@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote:
>
>> On 25/05/2013 13:35, AlanG wrote:
>>> On Sat, 25 May 2013 12:54:53 +0100, DVH <d...@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 25/05/2013 09:29, AlanG wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why weren't they off in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban who cause 80%
>>>>>>>> of civilian deaths there?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why are british troops there killing the rest?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They're not.
>>>>>
>>>>> Really?
>>>>> British troops have killed no civilians in either Iraq or Afghanistan?
>>>>
>>>> Why do you claim that?
>>>
>>> Did you miss the question mark?
>>> Or were you off sick when they did question marks and commas?
>>>
>>
>> No, I saw it. You were trying to put words in my mouth in your usual
>> dishonest way.
>
> I asked a question

I'd already answered it!

> in a recognised form. Howabout you answer it
> instead of dodging like a politician.
>
> Then explain why you believe british soldiers torturing and killing
> people in other countries gives no reason to charge them with murder.

There you go again with your dishonesty.

Fibby AlanG is off fibbing again.

>

[AlanG]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 16:38:46 +0100, DVH <d...@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote:

>On 25/05/2013 16:29, AlanG wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 May 2013 16:04:49 +0100, DVH <d...@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 25/05/2013 13:35, AlanG wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 25 May 2013 12:54:53 +0100, DVH <d...@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 25/05/2013 09:29, AlanG wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why weren't they off in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban who cause 80%
>>>>>>>>> of civilian deaths there?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why are british troops there killing the rest?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They're not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Really?
>>>>>> British troops have killed no civilians in either Iraq or Afghanistan?
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do you claim that?
>>>>
>>>> Did you miss the question mark?
>>>> Or were you off sick when they did question marks and commas?
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, I saw it. You were trying to put words in my mouth in your usual
>>> dishonest way.
>>
>> I asked a question
>
>I'd already answered it!

Dodger.

>
>> in a recognised form. Howabout you answer it
>> instead of dodging like a politician.
>>
>> Then explain why you believe british soldiers torturing and killing
>> people in other countries gives no reason to charge them with murder.
>
>There you go again with your dishonesty.

Liar

>
>Fibby AlanG is off fibbing again.
>

Ignorant you are
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/24/uk-inquests-civilian-deaths-iraq-war

The first public hearings are expected to focus on 11 cases in which
civilians died in British military custody. These will be followed by
public examinations of other incidents in which civilians died � often
in circumstances that were unclear or are disputed � but where it is
alleged that British personnel used unlawful force.

The court also ruled that this should be just the start of the process
by which public hearings will examine the alleged misconduct of some
members of the British armed forces who served in Iraq.

Following the completion of the Article 2 hearings � into allegedly
unlawful killings � further hearings should be established in order to
meet the UK's obligations under Article 3 of the ECHR, the court said.
These will inquire into allegations of torture and lesser mistreatment
of individuals detained by British troops in Iraq, focusing on a
sample of the most serious of the 700-plus cases in which such
allegations have been made.

In December last year the MoD said it had paid out �14m in
compensation and costs to 205 Iraqis who alleged unlawful imprisonment
and mistreatment, and that it was negotiating a further 196 payments.
Several hundred more claims were expected to be lodged.

Many of the hearings that examine allegations of torture and
mistreatment are expected to shed light on the activities of a British
interrogation unit known as the Joint Forward Interrogation Team,
whose personnel, drawn from all three branches of the services, appear
to have received training in the abuse of prisoners.

The deaths in custody include those of a number of teenagers who
drowned after allegedly being pushed into canals.

In another case, an RAF police investigation into the death of a man
who was allegedly kicked to death while on board an RAF helicopter
failed to establish the cause of death, or even the dead man's name. A
Guardian investigation established that there were concerns that MoD
officials may have interfered with the initial investigation because
they feared a prosecution could lead to the discovery that the dead
man � and large numbers of other prisoners � were being ferried to a
secret interrogation centre that had been concealed from both British
army lawyers and the Red Cross.

A third case concerns a mother who was shot and wounded in November
2006 when troops raided her home. She was certified dead on arrival at
a first aid post, and her body was later dumped at the side of a road
in a British army body bag.


Several other victims died after being detained for interrogation, and
are thought to have been beaten to death in a manner similar to that
of Baha Mousa, the Basra hotel receptionist who was murdered by
British soldiers in September 2003.

[DVH]

> public examinations of other incidents in which civilians died � often
> in circumstances that were unclear or are disputed � but where it is

> alleged that British personnel used unlawful force.
>
> The court also ruled that this should be just the start of the process
> by which public hearings will examine the alleged misconduct of some
> members of the British armed forces who served in Iraq.
>

> Following the completion of the Article 2 hearings � into allegedly
> unlawful killings � further hearings should be established in order to

> meet the UK's obligations under Article 3 of the ECHR, the court said.
> These will inquire into allegations of torture and lesser mistreatment
> of individuals detained by British troops in Iraq, focusing on a
> sample of the most serious of the 700-plus cases in which such
> allegations have been made.
>

> In December last year the MoD said it had paid out �14m in

> compensation and costs to 205 Iraqis who alleged unlawful imprisonment
> and mistreatment, and that it was negotiating a further 196 payments.
> Several hundred more claims were expected to be lodged.
>
> Many of the hearings that examine allegations of torture and
> mistreatment are expected to shed light on the activities of a British
> interrogation unit known as the Joint Forward Interrogation Team,
> whose personnel, drawn from all three branches of the services, appear
> to have received training in the abuse of prisoners.
>
> The deaths in custody include those of a number of teenagers who
> drowned after allegedly being pushed into canals.
>
> In another case, an RAF police investigation into the death of a man
> who was allegedly kicked to death while on board an RAF helicopter
> failed to establish the cause of death, or even the dead man's name. A
> Guardian investigation established that there were concerns that MoD
> officials may have interfered with the initial investigation because
> they feared a prosecution could lead to the discovery that the dead

> man � and large numbers of other prisoners � were being ferried to a

> secret interrogation centre that had been concealed from both British
> army lawyers and the Red Cross.
>
> A third case concerns a mother who was shot and wounded in November
> 2006 when troops raided her home. She was certified dead on arrival at
> a first aid post, and her body was later dumped at the side of a road
> in a British army body bag.
>
>
> Several other victims died after being detained for interrogation, and
> are thought to have been beaten to death in a manner similar to that
> of Baha Mousa, the Basra hotel receptionist who was murdered by
> British soldiers in September 2003.
>
>

So what?

[pensive hamster]

On May 25, 5:28 pm, DVH <d...@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote:
> On 25/05/2013 17:15, AlanG wrote:
[...]
> >http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/24/uk-inquests-civilian-deaths-...
[...]

>
> > Several other victims died after being detained for interrogation, and
> > are thought to have been beaten to death in a manner similar to that
> > of Baha Mousa, the Basra hotel receptionist who was murdered by
> > British soldiers in September 2003.
>
> So what?

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy
from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a
precedent that will reach to himself"
- Thomas Paine

(Translation: People will tend to treat you the way you treat them.)

[AlanG]

>> public examinations of other incidents in which civilians died � often
>> in circumstances that were unclear or are disputed � but where it is

>> alleged that British personnel used unlawful force.
>>
>> The court also ruled that this should be just the start of the process
>> by which public hearings will examine the alleged misconduct of some
>> members of the British armed forces who served in Iraq.
>>

>> Following the completion of the Article 2 hearings � into allegedly
>> unlawful killings � further hearings should be established in order to

>> meet the UK's obligations under Article 3 of the ECHR, the court said.
>> These will inquire into allegations of torture and lesser mistreatment
>> of individuals detained by British troops in Iraq, focusing on a
>> sample of the most serious of the 700-plus cases in which such
>> allegations have been made.
>>

>> In December last year the MoD said it had paid out �14m in

>> compensation and costs to 205 Iraqis who alleged unlawful imprisonment
>> and mistreatment, and that it was negotiating a further 196 payments.
>> Several hundred more claims were expected to be lodged.
>>
>> Many of the hearings that examine allegations of torture and
>> mistreatment are expected to shed light on the activities of a British
>> interrogation unit known as the Joint Forward Interrogation Team,
>> whose personnel, drawn from all three branches of the services, appear
>> to have received training in the abuse of prisoners.
>>
>> The deaths in custody include those of a number of teenagers who
>> drowned after allegedly being pushed into canals.
>>
>> In another case, an RAF police investigation into the death of a man
>> who was allegedly kicked to death while on board an RAF helicopter
>> failed to establish the cause of death, or even the dead man's name. A
>> Guardian investigation established that there were concerns that MoD
>> officials may have interfered with the initial investigation because
>> they feared a prosecution could lead to the discovery that the dead

>> man � and large numbers of other prisoners � were being ferried to a

>> secret interrogation centre that had been concealed from both British
>> army lawyers and the Red Cross.
>>
>> A third case concerns a mother who was shot and wounded in November
>> 2006 when troops raided her home. She was certified dead on arrival at
>> a first aid post, and her body was later dumped at the side of a road
>> in a British army body bag.
>>
>>
>> Several other victims died after being detained for interrogation, and
>> are thought to have been beaten to death in a manner similar to that
>> of Baha Mousa, the Basra hotel receptionist who was murdered by
>> British soldiers in September 2003.
>>
>>
>
>So what?

Do you support murderers then?

[DVH]

Indeed, and a very fine ideal which we should hold our squaddies to.

Presenting the Woolwich loonies as karma for Baha Mousa is a stretch,
but might satisfy some simple minds.

[DVH]

On 25/05/2013 17:53, AlanG wrote:

>> So what?
>
> Do you support murderers then?
>

No.

[AlanG]

Who is presenting it as karma?

Crimes by british soldiers are likely to be seized on to justify this
attack and may well be part of the cause but that is hardly karma.
Look it up in a dictionary.

It would be better if we all lived by the laws of the United Kingdom.
That includes politicians and the soldiery as well as the rest of us.

[AlanG]

Then why are you not condemning uk soldiery for the murders thay have
committed?

The two fanatics who killed that soldier are murderers and will face a
court. Why do you think the state and its agents should be immune to
the same laws?

[DVH]

On 25/05/2013 18:53, AlanG wrote:
> On Sat, 25 May 2013 17:58:08 +0100, DVH <d...@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote:
>
>> On 25/05/2013 17:43, pensive hamster wrote:
>>> On May 25, 5:28 pm, DVH <d...@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote:
>>>> On 25/05/2013 17:15, AlanG wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/24/uk-inquests-civilian-deaths-...
>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>>> Several other victims died after being detained for interrogation, and
>>>>> are thought to have been beaten to death in a manner similar to that
>>>>> of Baha Mousa, the Basra hotel receptionist who was murdered by
>>>>> British soldiers in September 2003.
>>>>
>>>> So what?
>>>
>>> "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy
>>> from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a
>>> precedent that will reach to himself"
>>> - Thomas Paine
>>
>> Indeed, and a very fine ideal which we should hold our squaddies to.
>>
>> Presenting the Woolwich loonies as karma for Baha Mousa is a stretch,
>> but might satisfy some simple minds.
>
> Who is presenting it as karma?
>
> Crimes by british soldiers are likely to be seized on to justify this
> attack and may well be part of the cause but that is hardly karma.

They're not part of the cause.

It's interesting to see how patronising people are. Perhaps they think
brown people are too savage and uneducated to be considered autonomous;
the motivation for whatever they do must be ascribed to the white man.
They can't be held responsible for a brutal murder - the white man
somehow made them do it.

[Steve M]

On 25/05/2013 19:01, DVH wrote:

>
> It's interesting to see how patronising people are. Perhaps they think
> brown people are too savage and uneducated to be considered autonomous;
> the motivation for whatever they do must be ascribed to the white man.
> They can't be held responsible for a brutal murder - the white man
> somehow made them do it.
>

Sure looks that way. Muslims are defending themselves (very well too)
against white mans aggression.

[DVH]

On 25/05/2013 18:56, AlanG wrote:
> On Sat, 25 May 2013 18:10:11 +0100, DVH <d...@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote:
>
>> On 25/05/2013 17:53, AlanG wrote:
>>
>>>> So what?
>>>
>>> Do you support murderers then?
>>>
>>
>> No.
>
> Then why are you not condemning uk soldiery for the murders thay have
> committed?

Why are you not condemning the Baader Meinhoff gang for their atrocities?

>
> The two fanatics who killed that soldier are murderers and will face a
> court. Why do you think the state and its agents should be immune to
> the same laws?

See, you keep lying.

I don't think the state etc etc.

[AlanG]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 19:01:08 +0100, DVH <d...@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote:


>> Crimes by british soldiers are likely to be seized on to justify this
>> attack and may well be part of the cause but that is hardly karma.
>
>They're not part of the cause.
>
>It's interesting to see how patronising people are. Perhaps they think
>brown people are too savage and uneducated to be considered autonomous;
>the motivation for whatever they do must be ascribed to the white man.
>They can't be held responsible for a brutal murder - the white man
>somehow made them do it.

There are english words there but they don't seem to make any sense.
Perhaps you should lay off the drugs a bit before posting

[AlanG]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 19:05:09 +0100, Steve M <mande...@verizon.net>
wrote:

If you understood what he is saying could you please translate

[AlanG]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 19:17:29 +0100, DVH <d...@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote:

>On 25/05/2013 18:56, AlanG wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 May 2013 18:10:11 +0100, DVH <d...@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 25/05/2013 17:53, AlanG wrote:
>>>
>>>>> So what?
>>>>
>>>> Do you support murderers then?
>>>>
>>>
>>> No.
>>
>> Then why are you not condemning uk soldiery for the murders thay have
>> committed?
>
>Why are you not condemning the Baader Meinhoff gang for their atrocities?

I did. You must have been off that day>

>>
>> The two fanatics who killed that soldier are murderers and will face a
>> court. Why do you think the state and its agents should be immune to
>> the same laws?
>
>See, you keep lying.

Are you denying the state commits murder through its agents?

[DVH]

On 26/05/2013 08:34, AlanG wrote:
> On Sat, 25 May 2013 19:01:08 +0100, DVH <d...@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> Crimes by british soldiers are likely to be seized on to justify this
>>> attack and may well be part of the cause but that is hardly karma.
>>
>> They're not part of the cause.
>>
>> It's interesting to see how patronising people are. Perhaps they think
>> brown people are too savage and uneducated to be considered autonomous;
>> the motivation for whatever they do must be ascribed to the white man.
>> They can't be held responsible for a brutal murder - the white man
>> somehow made them do it.
>
> There are english words there but they don't seem to make any sense.

I just don't have time to improve your literacy.

However, lifelong learning is said to be available even for apparently
hopeless cases like yourself.

[DVH]

I'm not denying that soldiers have on occasion committed murder.

Your apology for lying is accepted. Just don't do it again.

[weezer919 -- weezer919 -- weezer919]

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[saracene]

Murder as defined is a form of killing that is forbidden by law. Law
is determined by the sovereign power. Without any recognised
sovereign power we have the war of all against all. If you want to put
the agents of the British state on trial you obviously have some
theory as to a new power that you think ought to be sovereign.
Presumably that is some fantasy spun out of your own mind.

[AlanG]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 01:39:29 -0700 (PDT), saracene
<john...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On May 25, 6:56�pm, AlanG <inva...@invalid.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 May 2013 18:10:11 +0100, DVH <d...@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote:
>> >On 25/05/2013 17:53, AlanG wrote:
>>
>> >>> So what?
>>
>> >> Do you support murderers then?
>>
>> >No.
>>
>> Then why are you not condemning uk soldiery for the murders thay have
>> committed?
>>
>> The two fanatics who killed that soldier are murderers and will face a
>> court. Why do you think the state and its agents should be immune to
>> the same laws?
>
>Murder as defined is a form of killing that is forbidden by law. Law
>is determined by the sovereign power.

And there are allegations that state agents have unlawfully killed
people yet have not faced trial

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/24/uk-inquests-civilian-deaths-iraq-war

if we do not have law that operates equally and impartially for all we
do not have real law. We have a tyranny.

[Cynic]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 19:01:08 +0100, DVH <d...@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote:

>It's interesting to see how patronising people are. Perhaps they think
>brown people are too savage and uneducated to be considered autonomous;
>the motivation for whatever they do must be ascribed to the white man.
>They can't be held responsible for a brutal murder - the white man
>somehow made them do it.

That is not what anyone is saying at all.

If someone commits what you believe to be a terrivble crime against a
person or group that you know, but they receive no punishment for the
crime, it is perfectly normal for you to want to seek revenge against
that person or group no mattter what race you are.

--
Cynic

[Cynic]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 01:39:29 -0700 (PDT), saracene
<john...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Murder as defined is a form of killing that is forbidden by law. Law
>is determined by the sovereign power. Without any recognised
>sovereign power we have the war of all against all. If you want to put
>the agents of the British state on trial you obviously have some
>theory as to a new power that you think ought to be sovereign.

Well that is exactly the problem facing a group of people who believe
that people have been engaged in state-sanctioned killings. They have
nobody to appeal to for justice. Which is why they take the matter
into their own hands and carry out retribution attacks.

--
Cynic

[Cynic]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 11:56:34 -0700 (PDT), Claire
<claireo...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Even so, more Muslims have been killed by
>other Muslims than by the West but it is easier to blame the outsider,
>because if it is your own problem they have to solve it, and it is a
>lot more complicated than "getting you out of our lands"

In a great many cases the various factions had found a way of keeping
a balance - perhaps by an uneasy truce, or by foreceful suppression by
a country's leader.

Then we go into the country and interfere, upsetting the entire power
balance, and there is conflict and killing between the factions.

In Iraq, for example, there was no significant killing amongst the
population, not any terrorism whatsoever, unless we created a power
vacuum that we not only refused to fill, but are still actively
preventing it from being filled.

--
Cynic