Happy Solstice!
Doug
transition will be celebrated as the Earth reaches a certain point in
its orbit. A very ancient celebration indeed. So Happy Solstice and
may all your journeys be short and clean!
Doug
Phil Stovell
It's a bit cold for prancing around naked at Stonehenge today.
MM
However, it's good news, because today, being the shortest day, means
that we can start looking forward to the Spring from tomorrow. The
21st is always a low point for me, but tomorrow from the 22nd I regain
my usual enthusiasm. You'll notice the mornings getting brighter
earlier in only a week. After four weeks there's a marked difference.
MM
Mr Benn
"Phil Stovell" <ph...@stovell.nospam.org.uk> wrote in message
news:pan.2009.12.21....@stovell.nospam.org.uk...
I'm going to smoke a joint to celebrate
Phil Stovell
It'll turn you into Jacqui Smith.
Bob Ferguson
"MM" <kyli...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ksbui555hp6pcig59...@4ax.com...
Your enthusiasm is premature because today is the shortest day (shortest
time between dawn and sunset) and *not* the day with the earliest sunset or
the latest dawn.
The earliest sunset occured on the 12th December (15:55:18 here) and the
latest dawn will not occur until 30th December (8:06:23 here). This comes
about because the Earth's path around the sun is elliptical and not circular
and we are closer to the sun in winter than we are in summer.
This means that the mornings will continue to get darker (by about 3
minutes) for at least another week and even by 10th January, sunrise is
still very nearly exactly the same time as it is today.
Mike Ross
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8i0ypSqBxE
Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'
JNugent
<quick double-take>
I first read that as "It'll turn you into Judith Smith".
Paul Hyett
<ph...@stovell.nospam.org.uk> wrote in uk.legal :
Hell, even at half four on a *June* morning, it's often too cold to do
that! :p
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
Tony Dragon
So you have tried it then?
--
Tony Dragon
Alex Potter
>> Hell, even at half four on a *June* morning, it's often too cold to do
>> that! :p
>
> So you have tried it then?
I've been there at that time on a few occasions, and there's no way
I'd've danced naked in those temperatures :)
--
Regards
Alex
Tom Crispin
wrote:
>At 17.47 today, the shortest day in the UK this year, a period of
More importantly, it's my birthday...
Hic..
Alex Potter
> More importantly, it's my birthday...
And no school for a couple of weeks. :)
Happy birthday.
--
Regards
Alex
The Wanderer
Happy birthday.
I prefer Saturnalia to celebrate at this time of year!
--
The Wanderer
Meditate! It's better than sitting doing nothing.
NM
And happy solstice to you as well. personally I hate the commercial
bullshit that christmas has developed into, can't wait for it to be
over. Millions of people will receive tons and tons of tat they don't
really want, what a waste and hardly 'green', surely that not what
christmas should be about. I vote we ditch christmas, give it back to
the christians and revert to a good old midwinter feast to celebrate
the solstice and the real start of another year.
Someone put a small wreath in the centre of a neolithic stone circle
near here, probably last night, maybe paganisn is alive and well.
Shaun
wrote:
>At 17.47 today, the shortest day in the UK this year, a period of
As its now getting lighter it'll be pointless putting lights on the
bike.
Roger Merriman
happy birthday tom, get any riding or would that not of been wise
(hic..)
the ice/snow is quite fun though mostly gone now, though my folks place
looks very white...
roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com
Tom Crispin
wrote:
>Tom Crispin <kije....@this.bit.freeuk.com.munge> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 21:44:37 -0800 (PST), Doug <jag...@riseup.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >At 17.47 today, the shortest day in the UK this year, a period of
>> >transition will be celebrated as the Earth reaches a certain point in
>> >its orbit. A very ancient celebration indeed. So Happy Solstice and
>> >may all your journeys be short and clean!
>>
>> More importantly, it's my birthday...
>>
>> Hic..
>
>happy birthday tom, get any riding or would that not of been wise
>(hic..)
My younger brother and his family are home from Shanghai, where Sam
has his own property consultancy business. They have recently bought
a house in Sevenoaks (which Marcy, my sister-in-law, selected with the
aid of a fortune-teller and Sam shelled out �650,000 cash without
having seen the place). We drove down to Sevenoaks to see the house,
which was built in the 50s, had one owner, and not had much spent on
it since then. My brother now plans to spend a further �350,000 for
renovations and extensions, converting it from a comfortable
four-bedroomed house into a five bedroomed palace with loft
conversion, a new room over the garage and /five/ bathrooms (three
en-suite, one downstairs and one upstairs).
While Sam and Marcy discussed toilet holder colour schemes I went into
the garden with Chloe and Felix and we built a snowman, complete with
a large flowerpot hat and broken birdbath base bulbous penis. Shortly
afterwards we slithered back to London on the M25 and A2, had dinner
at my parents house before I skidded home on my Brompton, which was
dangerous, but as I had had a couple of bracing drinks with my parents
and brother I felt perfectly prepared for the ride home.
A very happy birthday...
Sam intends to move back to the UK in three and a half years' time
when Chloe is of secondary school age and he has his eye on schools in
Sevenoaks.
As an aside, Marcy came over to Europe a week before Sam, Felix and
Chloe. She spent 52,000 Euros on antique furniture bought from
warehouses in Belgium and the Netherlands. She is shipping the
furniture to Shanghai in a 40ft and a 20ft container where she expects
to triple her money. Apparantly the antique market in China only
started 6 months ago and the Chinese are hoovering up European
antiques with wanton abandon. The more ornate the furniture the
higher the price.
>the ice/snow is quite fun though mostly gone now, though my folks place
>looks very white...
Not much here now, either.
NM
Isn't it already, the dole office opens after daylight even in mid
winter and by dusk it's too late in the day for them to process your
claim so you don't need lights.
Doug
that only 7% of the population go to church at Christ-Mass.
Things can only get better. A good start would be to trash Sunday
trading laws.
--
UK Radical Campaigns
www.zing.icom43.net
One man's democracy is another man's regime.
Norman Wells
I keep telling you, it's not the law that keeps shops shut on a Sunday, but
the shopkeepers wanting a day off. And they all want the same day off
because that makes trading easier for them all.
What legal restrictions do you think exist that make any real difference?
Do you think for example that everyone trading on a Sunday is doing so
illegally?
johannes
The Earth always reaches a reaches a certain point in its orbit every
day and every time. Come on Dough, you can do better than that.
martin
> Doug wrote:
>> On 22 Dec, 09:38, NM <nik.mor...@mac.com> wrote:
>>> On 21 Dec, 05:44, Doug <jag...@riseup.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> At 17.47 today, the shortest day in the UK this year, a period of
>>>> transition will be celebrated as the Earth reaches a certain point
>>>> in its orbit. A very ancient celebration indeed. So Happy Solstice
>>>> and may all your journeys be short and clean!
>>>
>>>> Doug
>>>
>>> And happy solstice to you as well. personally I hate the commercial
>>> bullshit that christmas has developed into, can't wait for it to be
>>> over. Millions of people will receive tons and tons of tat they don't
>>> really want, what a waste and hardly 'green', surely that not what
>>> christmas should be about. I vote we ditch christmas, give it back to
>>> the christians and revert to a good old midwinter feast to celebrate
>>> the solstice and the real start of another year.
>>>
>>> Someone put a small wreath in the centre of a neolithic stone circle
>>> near here, probably last night, maybe paganisn is alive and well.
>>>
>> I heard on the radio that Paganism is on the increase and I also heard
>> that only 7% of the population go to church at Christ-Mass.
>>
>> Things can only get better. A good start would be to trash Sunday
>> trading laws.
>
> I keep telling you, it's not the law that keeps shops shut on a Sunday,
> but the shopkeepers wanting a day off.
If that were the case then trashing the law preventing it would make no
difference. I seem to remember the same thing being said when the
limited opening was introduced years ago.
> And they all want the same day
> off because that makes trading easier for them all.
So let market forces dictate that then. What's there to be scared of?
>
> What legal restrictions do you think exist that make any real difference?
I can't do my usual shopping at 3am sunday morning. Why not?
>
> Do you think for example that everyone trading on a Sunday is doing so
> illegally?
You're now a bit foolish.
>
>
Norman Wells
> Norman Wells wrote:
>> Doug wrote:
>>> On 22 Dec, 09:38, NM <nik.mor...@mac.com> wrote:
>>>> On 21 Dec, 05:44, Doug <jag...@riseup.net> wrote:
>>> Things can only get better. A good start would be to trash Sunday
>>> trading laws.
>>
>> I keep telling you, it's not the law that keeps shops shut on a
>> Sunday, but the shopkeepers wanting a day off.
>
> If that were the case then trashing the law preventing it would make
> no difference.
That's my point exactly. What's yours?
> I seem to remember the same thing being said when the
> limited opening was introduced years ago.
>
>> And they all want the same day
>> off because that makes trading easier for them all.
>
> So let market forces dictate that then. What's there to be scared of?
Market forces already dictate that. That's my point.
>> What legal restrictions do you think exist that make any real
>> difference?
>
> I can't do my usual shopping at 3am sunday morning. Why not?
Generally for the same reason you can't do your usual shopping at 3am any
other day of the week. Whatever that reason is, it has little or nothing to
do with Sunday Trading laws.
>> Do you think for example that everyone trading on a Sunday is doing
>> so illegally?
>
> You're now a bit foolish.
If you have a point, please try to let us know what it is.
Roger Merriman
sounds great!
>
>
> Sam intends to move back to the UK in three and a half years' time
> when Chloe is of secondary school age and he has his eye on schools in
> Sevenoaks.
>
> As an aside, Marcy came over to Europe a week before Sam, Felix and
> Chloe. She spent 52,000 Euros on antique furniture bought from
> warehouses in Belgium and the Netherlands. She is shipping the
> furniture to Shanghai in a 40ft and a 20ft container where she expects
> to triple her money. Apparantly the antique market in China only
> started 6 months ago and the Chinese are hoovering up European
> antiques with wanton abandon. The more ornate the furniture the
> higher the price.
>
> >the ice/snow is quite fun though mostly gone now, though my folks place
> >looks very white...
>
> Not much here now, either.
my folks had a white chrismas and we'll probably have a white new year
there.
roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com
Cynic
<cm...@dibblers-pies.co.am> wrote:
>>> I keep telling you, it's not the law that keeps shops shut on a
>>> Sunday, but the shopkeepers wanting a day off.
>> If that were the case then trashing the law preventing it would make
>> no difference.
>That's my point exactly. What's yours?
It is close to 100% certain that if Sunday trading laws were
completely abolished, all the major supermarkets would stay open
pretty much permanently.
>> I can't do my usual shopping at 3am sunday morning. Why not?
>Generally for the same reason you can't do your usual shopping at 3am any
>other day of the week.
But you *can* do your usual supermarket shopping at 3AM on any other
day of the week, Norman. Albeit you have to weave your way past all
the shelf-stackers, but there is seldom a queue at the checkout, and
the car park is pretty much empty, so you get it done far more quickly
than during the day.
I have never shopped at 3AM myself, but have done so quite often at
1AM.
--
Cynic
Norman Wells
> On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:49:25 -0000, "Norman Wells"
> <cm...@dibblers-pies.co.am> wrote:
>
>>>> I keep telling you, it's not the law that keeps shops shut on a
>>>> Sunday, but the shopkeepers wanting a day off.
>
>>> If that were the case then trashing the law preventing it would make
>>> no difference.
>
>> That's my point exactly. What's yours?
>
> It is close to 100% certain that if Sunday trading laws were
> completely abolished, all the major supermarkets would stay open
> pretty much permanently.
But they do that anyway, with just a few enforced hours on Sundays when
they're closed.
>>> I can't do my usual shopping at 3am sunday morning. Why not?
>
>> Generally for the same reason you can't do your usual shopping at
>> 3am any other day of the week.
>
> But you *can* do your usual supermarket shopping at 3AM on any other
> day of the week, Norman. Albeit you have to weave your way past all
> the shelf-stackers, but there is seldom a queue at the checkout, and
> the car park is pretty much empty, so you get it done far more quickly
> than during the day.
It depends where you go shopping. The world isn't just composed of
supermarkets which, I suspect, would be the only shops that would even
consider extending their hours if the Sunday Trading laws were repealed.
Town centres and shopping malls, indeed anywhere that doesn't open 24/6 at
the moment, probably wouldn't change in the slightest.
> I have never shopped at 3AM myself, but have done so quite often at
> 1AM.
Probably just because you know you can, rather than because you really want
to. The question is, how much of an inconvenience do the Sunday Trading
laws cause? Following on from that, does any inconvenience represent
religious oppression such as to make their repeal a matter of pressing
importance? Doug obviously thinks so, but since when has he been right
about anything?
Mr X
"Norman Wells" <cm...@dibblers-pies.co.am> wrote in message
news:onpZm.21$kr3...@newsfe18.ams2...
> Probably just because you know you can, rather than because you really
> want to. The question is, how much of an inconvenience do the Sunday
> Trading laws cause? Following on from that, does any inconvenience
> represent religious oppression such as to make their repeal a matter of
> pressing importance? Doug obviously thinks so, but since when has he been
> right about anything?
>
I hate shopping with other people so it suits me.
NM
> On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:49:25 -0000, "Norman Wells"
>
> <cm...@dibblers-pies.co.am> wrote:
> >>> I keep telling you, it's not the law that keeps shops shut on a
> >>> Sunday, but the shopkeepers wanting a day off.
> >> If that were the case then trashing the law preventing it would make
> >> no difference.
> >That's my point exactly. What's yours?
>
> It is close to 100% certain that if Sunday trading laws were
> completely abolished, all the major supermarkets would stay open
> pretty much permanently.
Bloody good idea, I resent those who believe in sky faries having a
say as to when I can or cannot go shopping.
Norman Wells
They don't. The vast majority of the hours shops are closed, ie about 15
hours a day anyway, are down to the decisions of the shopkeeper. If the
Sunday Trading laws were repealed, the only change I reckon you'd see is a
number of supermarkets that currently open 24/6 extending their Sunday
opening hours beyond what they are already permitted to do, which happen to
be the hours most people who shop on Sundays want to shop anyway. Smaller
shops, High Streets etc are unlikely to change at all.
Mr X
Doug
wrote:
probably because they are more significant astronomically..
Doug
Sunday laws used to be even stricter back in the bad old days of
religious domination.
>
> What legal restrictions do you think exist that make any real difference?
>
existence of special laws for Sunday and not the rest of the week,
which can only be Christian in origin, is in itself highly suspect and
unnecessarily restrictive for a majority of the population.
>
> Do you think for example that everyone trading on a Sunday is doing so
> illegally?
>
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1994/Ukpga_19940020_en_1.htm
Doug
before 10am or after 4pm on a Sunday but I am not allowed to. Instead,
every Sunday I am forced to adapt to a different routine which even
affects the media and public transport.
NM
Supermarkets were allowed Sunday opening provided they agreed, as a
sop to the Church, not to open before 1000 and to close at 1600 (the
god botheres citeing there would be no demand IIRC) Previously the
Lords Day Observance Act was in force.
Supermarkets open 0930 and allow 30 mins 'browsing time' to partially
get around the rules.
In this modern secular society I object to the views of a tiny
minority being the arbiter of if I can shop or not. Market forces I
can accept (no demand, we don't open) but some prat's religeon should
not be allowed to impinge on my life in this fashion, if they want to
obvserve their imagined lord's day then they should keep it to
themselves (same applies to church bells IMO).
Sundays seem to be one of the busiest days in my local Tesco and
Morrison.
Cynic
<cm...@dibblers-pies.co.am> wrote:
>>>> If that were the case then trashing the law preventing it would make
>>>> no difference.
>>
>>> That's my point exactly. What's yours?
>>
>> It is close to 100% certain that if Sunday trading laws were
>> completely abolished, all the major supermarkets would stay open
>> pretty much permanently.
>
>But they do that anyway, with just a few enforced hours on Sundays when
>they're closed.
Yes, and it's those few hours that are under discussion.
>> I have never shopped at 3AM myself, but have done so quite often at
>> 1AM.
>Probably just because you know you can, rather than because you really want
>to.
I do not make a special point of going to the shops at 1AM when it
would have been more convenient for me to have gone at a different
time. Often I go out straight from work. I cannot do shopping
beforehand because the frozen stuff I buy would defrost. So I shop on
the way home instead.
If the shops were only open one day of the week, then I have no doubt
we would all cope adequately - but life would not be quite so
convenient.
--
Cynic
Doug
tha people rush to shop on the day before and the day after? Its as if
they are acting as if deprived in some way.
Norman Wells
> On 26 Dec, 09:25, "Norman Wells" <cm...@dibblers-pies.co.am> wrote:
>> Doug wrote:
>>> On 22 Dec, 09:38, NM <nik.mor...@mac.com> wrote:
>>> Things can only get better. A good start would be to trash Sunday
>>> trading laws.
>>
>> I keep telling you, it's not the law that keeps shops shut on a
>> Sunday, but the shopkeepers wanting a day off. And they all want the
>> same day off because that makes trading easier for them all.
>>
> Rubbish. Small shopkeepers are allowed to open and do.
Not many in my town. Newsagents do mainly, as they ever did. Not much
else.
> Of course, the
> Sunday laws used to be even stricter back in the bad old days of
> religious domination.
But you were arguing that the Sunday Trading laws are a huge imposition
_now_. But they're not.
>> What legal restrictions do you think exist that make any real
>> difference?
>>
> Large stores are only allowed to open for six hours.
They generally only open for 8 or 9 when they're allowed free rein. The
amount of trade they'd do before 10am or after 4pm on a Sunday, given no
passing workers, is pretty minimal in my view.
> The very
> existence of special laws for Sunday and not the rest of the week,
> which can only be Christian in origin, is in itself highly suspect and
> unnecessarily restrictive for a majority of the population.
For the reasons I've given, I don't think it really restricts anyone at all
unduly, and certainly not sufficiently to make repeal of the laws at all a
pressing matter, whatever you think of their historical origin. It seems to
me that you're just posturing to make a political point of no significance.
.
>> Do you think for example that everyone trading on a Sunday is doing
>> so illegally?
>>
> Suggest you study the subject properly before posting further.
>
> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1994/Ukpga_19940020_en_1.htm
If you have a point, Doug, do please try to make it.
Norman Wells
> On 26 Dec, 12:32, Cynic <cynic_...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:49:25 -0000, "Norman Wells"
>>
>> <cm...@dibblers-pies.co.am> wrote:
>>>>> I keep telling you, it's not the law that keeps shops shut on a
>>>>> Sunday, but the shopkeepers wanting a day off.
>>>> If that were the case then trashing the law preventing it would
>>>> make no difference.
>>> That's my point exactly. What's yours?
>>
>> It is close to 100% certain that if Sunday trading laws were
>> completely abolished, all the major supermarkets would stay open
>> pretty much permanently.
>>
>>>> I can't do my usual shopping at 3am sunday morning. Why not?
>>> Generally for the same reason you can't do your usual shopping at
>>> 3am any other day of the week.
>>
>> But you *can* do your usual supermarket shopping at 3AM on any other
>> day of the week, Norman. Albeit you have to weave your way past all
>> the shelf-stackers, but there is seldom a queue at the checkout, and
>> the car park is pretty much empty, so you get it done far more
>> quickly than during the day.
>>
>> I have never shopped at 3AM myself, but have done so quite often at
>> 1AM.
>>
> It would be most welcome if I could even shop at my local supermarket
> before 10am or after 4pm on a Sunday but I am not allowed to.
It's only about 9am to 5pm on other days of the week, so I think you're
making a mountain out of a molehill. Most local shops are shut for 15 hours
a day anyway, despite their being no laws to prevent longer opening. Surely
that's even more of a restriction on all our lives?
Merely because shops are allowed to open doesn't mean that they will. Most
in fact won't.
> Instead,
> every Sunday I am forced to adapt to a different routine which even
> affects the media and public transport.
Yes, we have Sunday papers and a Sunday service on the buses. That's got
nothing at all to do with religion, but with people wanting a day off, and
preferably the same day off as those they want to see or do things with. If
you can't cope with that, I'm really sorry for you because it indicates you
might have OCD.
Norman Wells
> Sundays seem to be one of the busiest days in my local Tesco and
> Morrison.
Doesn't mean they'd be busy before 10am or after 4pm though, nor that they'd
actually sell more overall if they remained open longer, does it?
NM
How do you know? In my opinion based on my own observations, they
would continue to to business at the level they do every other day of
the week and you can be sure of one thing if it was unprofitable they
would revert to the previous restrictions very quickly.
NM
How would you know? Don't buy your lentils in bulk.
Norman Wells
> On 26 Dec, 17:39, "Norman Wells" <cm...@dibblers-pies.co.am> wrote:
>> NM wrote:
>>> Sundays seem to be one of the busiest days in my local Tesco and
>>> Morrison.
>>
>> Doesn't mean they'd be busy before 10am or after 4pm though, nor
>> that they'd actually sell more overall if they remained open longer,
>> does it?
>
> How do you know?
1) People get up later on Sundays
2) People who go shopping go when they know the shops will be open, whenever
that is, so will go between 10 and 4 on a Sunday.
> In my opinion based on my own observations, they
> would continue to to business at the level they do every other day of
> the week and you can be sure of one thing if it was unprofitable they
> would revert to the previous restrictions very quickly.
Then why isn't _every_ shop in the High Street open from 10 to 4 on Sundays
at present?
martin
> martin wrote:
>> So let market forces dictate that then. What's there to be scared of?
>
> Market forces already dictate that. That's my point.
No they don't, the law does.
>
>
>>> What legal restrictions do you think exist that make any real
>>> difference?
>>
>> I can't do my usual shopping at 3am sunday morning. Why not?
>
> Generally for the same reason you can't do your usual shopping at 3am
> any other day of the week.
Oh but I do. I don't like crowds.
>>> Do you think for example that everyone trading on a Sunday is doing
>>> so illegally?
>>
>> You're now a bit foolish.
>
> If you have a point, please try to let us know what it is.
You know limited trading on Sunday for the larger shops is legal. Well
the point is it was a bit of an idiotic statement for you to make.
NM
> "Mr X" <inva...@invalid.com> considered Sat, 26 Dec 2009 14:53:03
> No crowds, 24x365 opening, and greater customer rights.
> And it doesn't require the staff to up all night either.
It does, Tesco R&D centres are open 24/7 as are all the other major
supermarkets.
NM
I thought we were talking groceries however if you want to include
others our local Halfords, Comet, B&Q,and a few others are all open on
Sunday, the Coop is open till 1030 and is always packed, with a queue,
on a Sunday evening. The new Tesco Express in the high street is open
0600 to 2300 daily including Sundays and I've yet to see it anywhere
near empty at any time of the day.
If there is no demand then why are just these two examples doing a
roaring trade on Sundays? Hardly anyone goes to church anymore, Sunday
is a good day to do things like the shopping, hence the instore
traffic.
I often go shopping in the middle of the night, usually if I've
finished work late and in the early hours I'm not the only customer in
the store.
Doug
> "Mr X" <inva...@invalid.com> considered Sat, 26 Dec 2009 14:53:03
> -0000 the perfect time to write:
>
>
>
> No crowds, 24x365 opening, and greater customer rights.
> And it doesn't require the staff to up all night either.
>
day.
--
UK Radical Campaigns
www.zing.icom43.net
AlanG
<phil(at)lee-family(dot)me(dot)uk> wrote:
>"Mr X" <inv...@invalid.com> considered Sat, 26 Dec 2009 14:53:03
>-0000 the perfect time to write:
>
>>
>Then shop online.
>No crowds, 24x365 opening, and greater customer rights.
>And it doesn't require the staff to up all night either.
But it does require you to have someone available to take delivery.
Norman Wells
> On 26 Dec, 22:21, "Norman Wells" <cm...@dibblers-pies.co.am> wrote:
>> NM wrote:
>>> On 26 Dec, 17:39, "Norman Wells" <cm...@dibblers-pies.co.am> wrote:
>>>> NM wrote:
>>>>> Sundays seem to be one of the busiest days in my local Tesco and
>>>>> Morrison.
>>
>>>> Doesn't mean they'd be busy before 10am or after 4pm though, nor
>>>> that they'd actually sell more overall if they remained open
>>>> longer, does it?
>>
>>> How do you know?
>>
>> 1) People get up later on Sundays
>> 2) People who go shopping go when they know the shops will be open,
>> whenever that is, so will go between 10 and 4 on a Sunday.
>>
>>> In my opinion based on my own observations, they
>>> would continue to to business at the level they do every other day
>>> of the week and you can be sure of one thing if it was unprofitable
>>> they would revert to the previous restrictions very quickly.
>>
>> Then why isn't _every_ shop in the High Street open from 10 to 4 on
>> Sundays at present?
>
> I thought we were talking groceries
Well, we weren't.
> however if you want to include
> others our local Halfords, Comet, B&Q,and a few others are all open on
> Sunday, the Coop is open till 1030 and is always packed, with a queue,
> on a Sunday evening. The new Tesco Express in the high street is open
> 0600 to 2300 daily including Sundays and I've yet to see it anywhere
> near empty at any time of the day.
>
> If there is no demand then why are just these two examples doing a
> roaring trade on Sundays?
If they're all open for long hours even on Sundays, then what is the need to
repeal Sunday Trading laws, which is what this discussion is all about?
> Hardly anyone goes to church anymore, Sunday
> is a good day to do things like the shopping, hence the instore
> traffic.
But you've just illustrated how the Sunday Trading laws don't restrict
anyone.
So, why do they need to be repealed? What effect would repealing them have?
Norman Wells
But that's all because of commercial decisions by the stores. Nothing to do
with Sunday Trading laws or religious observance at all.
Repealing the laws, which is what you want, would therefore make no
difference at all, would it?
Norman Wells
> Norman Wells wrote:
>> martin wrote:
>>>> What legal restrictions do you think exist that make any real
>>>> difference?
>>>
>>> I can't do my usual shopping at 3am sunday morning. Why not?
>>
>> Generally for the same reason you can't do your usual shopping at 3am
>> any other day of the week.
>
> Oh but I do. I don't like crowds.
You can't if the shops aren't open then, as most aren't.
And they aren't because of commercial reasons, not legal or religious ones.
I wonder how many people are inconvenienced by nt being able to do just
their food shopping at 3am on a _Sunday_ morning, which is just about the
only time that the present law stops them.
It's not very many if you're honest, is it?
martin
> martin wrote:
>> Norman Wells wrote:
>>> martin wrote:
>
>>>>> What legal restrictions do you think exist that make any real
>>>>> difference?
>>>>
>>>> I can't do my usual shopping at 3am sunday morning. Why not?
>>>
>>> Generally for the same reason you can't do your usual shopping at 3am
>>> any other day of the week.
>>
>> Oh but I do. I don't like crowds.
>
> You can't if the shops aren't open then, as most aren't.
But the ones I use do open and cater for my needs. If they weren't
making money they would close I suppose.
>
> And they aren't because of commercial reasons, not legal or religious ones.
But they ARE open at 3am when I like to go shopping, for commercial reasons.
>
> I wonder how many people are inconvenienced by nt being able to do just
> their food shopping at 3am on a _Sunday_ morning, which is just about
> the only time that the present law stops them.
Me.
>
> It's not very many if you're honest, is it?
So why is it legally regulated if people wouldn't do it anyway? Let
market forces take over completely. Those who think they can make money
by opening 24/7 should be allowed to, if they can't make money they
won't do it. Simples!
It's only because of the christians that there is restricted trading on
sundays. Feck 'em. It's about time the government stopped pandering to
the god botherers. If the GBs don't want to go shopping all well and
good, no-one is forcing them to.
martin
christo-fascist bastards imposing their will on everyone else in the
country.
Doug
the large shops have their opening hours restricted by law on a
Sunday.
>
> > Hardly anyone goes to church anymore, Sunday
> > is a good day to do things like the shopping, hence the instore
> > traffic.
>
> But you've just illustrated how the Sunday Trading laws don't restrict
> anyone.
>
> So, why do they need to be repealed? What effect would repealing them have?
>
and how they are restricted.
Here is just a taster,
"(1) If paragraph 2(1) above is contravened in relation to a shop, the
occupier of the shop shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine
not exceeding £50,000.
(2) If paragraph 6 above is contravened in relation to a shop, the
occupier of the shop shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine
not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale.
8 Where a person is charged with having contravened paragraph 2(1)
above, in relation to a large shop which was permitted to be open for
the serving of retail customers on the Sunday in question during the
permitted Sunday opening hours specified in a notice under paragraph 4
above, by reason of his having served a retail customer after the end
of those hours, it shall be a defence to prove that the customer was
in the shop before that time and left not later than half an hour
after that time."
See how draconian this imposed religious Sunday Trading Laws is? Its
even worse on Christ-Mass day.
Doug
Happi Monday
> But you've just illustrated how the Sunday Trading laws don't restrict
> anyone.
No e didn't.
> So, why do they need to be repealed?
Because they are a minority view imposed upon the majority.
> What effect would repealing them have?
More importantly, why are they still in existence. The effect is simply
giving people more liberty.
NM
Because the larger superstores will be allowed to open not just the
piddly little coops, tesco express and the like.
The effect would be that I could go shopping whenever I liked 24/7
without having to even consider what day of the week it is, I and
legions of others.
NM
You are wrong, this is not a commercial decision it's enforced by
legislation. In these days of cuthroat competition between the
supermarkets they will go to any lengths to gain an advantage over the
competition yet they all open at 1000 on Sunday and close 1600, in
fact some open 30 mins earlier to encourage what they call browsing
time but the till will not work until the stroke of 10AM. That's
because the times are forced on them. close 2359 Saturday night.
If they could have found a way round this to steall a march on the
competition they would.
This is all down to worship of sky faries by a small deluded section
of the population and the pressure they had to assert their will over
preceeding generations.
Norman Wells
> On 27 Dec, 09:53, "Norman Wells" <cm...@dibblers-pies.co.am> wrote:
>> NM wrote:
>>> On 26 Dec, 22:21, "Norman Wells" <cm...@dibblers-pies.co.am> wrote:
>>>> NM wrote:
>>>>> On 26 Dec, 17:39, "Norman Wells" <cm...@dibblers-pies.co.am>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> NM wrote:
>>> I thought we were talking groceries
>>
>> Well, we weren't.
>>
>>> however if you want to include
>>> others our local Halfords, Comet, B&Q,and a few others are all open
>>> on Sunday, the Coop is open till 1030 and is always packed, with a
>>> queue, on a Sunday evening. The new Tesco Express in the high
>>> street is open 0600 to 2300 daily including Sundays and I've yet to
>>> see it anywhere near empty at any time of the day.
>>
>>> If there is no demand then why are just these two examples doing a
>>> roaring trade on Sundays?
>>
>> If they're all open for long hours even on Sundays, then what is the
>> need to repeal Sunday Trading laws, which is what this discussion is
>> all about?
>>
> How many more times? They are not ALL open for ordinary hours. Many of
> the large shops have their opening hours restricted by law on a
> Sunday.
Not apparently those specifically mentioned above. Perhaps you'd like to
explain just how they've been restricted.
Perhaps you'd also like to explain why, if they're prepared to ignore the
law as it is, they close at all, even at 22.30 or 23.00? Is that because
they suddenly have an attack of conscience, or what?
>>> Hardly anyone goes to church anymore, Sunday
>>> is a good day to do things like the shopping, hence the instore
>>> traffic.
>>
>> But you've just illustrated how the Sunday Trading laws don't
>> restrict anyone.
>>
>> So, why do they need to be repealed? What effect would repealing
>> them have?
>>
> See above and do start reading the Sunday Trading Act 1994 to see what
> and how they are restricted.
>
> Here is just a taster,
<snip>
You referred to the Sunday Trading laws before. Now you've just selected
bits to quote. But you haven't answered the questions why they need to be
repealed, and what effect repealing them would have. You see, I don't think
that there would be any effect at all on the shops mentioned above. Do you?
If so, what?
NM
I already replied, obviously the answer isn't what you want to hear.
Norman Wells
> On 27/12/2009 09:53, Norman Wells wrote:
>
>> But you've just illustrated how the Sunday Trading laws don't
>> restrict anyone.
>
> No e didn't.
And what evidence, if any, do you have for that?
>> So, why do they need to be repealed?
>
> Because they are a minority view imposed upon the majority.
The vast majority of shops in towns are shut on Sundays even within the
hours they are permitted to be open. How has that got anything at all to do
with Sunday Trading laws and the imposition of a minority view on the
majority?
>> What effect would repealing them have?
>
> More importantly, why are they still in existence. The effect is
> simply giving people more liberty.
There are many laws on the Statute book that have simply not been repealed
because there has been no need to take up Parliamentary time to repeal them.
They just stop being enforced.
Why don't you tell us all just what you think the difference would be if
they were repealed tomorrow?
Mr X
>> Because they are a minority view imposed upon the majority.
>
> The vast majority of shops in towns are shut on Sundays even within the
> hours they are permitted to be open. How has that got anything at all to
> do with Sunday Trading laws and the imposition of a minority view on the
> majority?
>
I've never seen that anywhere that I've lived.
The only places that close all day on Sundays IME are wholesalers and trade
suppliers like electrical factors for the simple reason that few, if any,
tradesmen work on Sundays.
>>> What effect would repealing them have?
>>
>> More importantly, why are they still in existence. The effect is
>> simply giving people more liberty.
>
> There are many laws on the Statute book that have simply not been repealed
> because there has been no need to take up Parliamentary time to repeal
> them. They just stop being enforced.
>
> Why don't you tell us all just what you think the difference would be if
> they were repealed tomorrow?
>
Supermarkets would open 24/7
Chain stores on High Streets would keep normal hours on Sundays.
Some smaller stores might increase their hours as well.
Norman Wells
First, the stores would have to decide to open for longer hours even if they
were permitted. That's not necessarily true, though I accept it probably is
for large supermarkets. The current ability of small shops to open 24/7
certainly does not mean that they do. Most close all day on Sundays and
will continue to do so regardless.
And how many does 'legions of others' really represent? How many,
seriously, actually want to go shopping between 00.00 and 10.00am on a
Sunday, or between 18.00 and 24.00? They are the only times that are
currently officially restricted. Of those, who might think about going
shopping at those times, how many would really only think about it because
they can, not because they can't actually go shopping on a Sunday in the
period 10.00 to 18.00 when the shop can legally be open?
Mr X
> First, the stores would have to decide to open for longer hours even if
> they were permitted. That's not necessarily true, though I accept it
> probably is for large supermarkets. The current ability of small shops to
> open 24/7 certainly does not mean that they do. Most close all day on
> Sundays and will continue to do so regardless.
>
I never use small shops as they are rip-off merchants. Supermarkets do me
just fine.
> And how many does 'legions of others' really represent? How many,
> seriously, actually want to go shopping between 00.00 and 10.00am on a
> Sunday, or between 18.00 and 24.00? They are the only times that are
> currently officially restricted. Of those, who might think about going
> shopping at those times, how many would really only think about it because
> they can, not because they can't actually go shopping on a Sunday in the
> period 10.00 to 18.00 when the shop can legally be open?
>
Why should I not be allowed to shop whenever I like? Why should a
supermarket be stopped from opening by bible bashers? Nobody is asking them
to go shopping at all if they don't like it but I don't like them bothering
my liberty.
Phil Stovell
> I heard on the radio that Paganism is on the increase and I also heard
> that only 7% of the population go to church at Christ-Mass.
Isn't paganism just another flavour of sky-fairy belief?
AlanG
<phil(at)lee-family(dot)me(dot)uk> wrote:
>AlanG <inv...@invalid.net> considered Sun, 27 Dec 2009 09:42:59 +0000
>the perfect time to write:
>
>>On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 23:23:36 +0000, Phil W Lee
>><phil(at)lee-family(dot)me(dot)uk> wrote:
>>
>>>"Mr X" <inv...@invalid.com> considered Sat, 26 Dec 2009 14:53:03
>>>-0000 the perfect time to write:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Norman Wells" <cm...@dibblers-pies.co.am> wrote in message
>>>>news:onpZm.21$kr3...@newsfe18.ams2...
>>>>> Probably just because you know you can, rather than because you really
>>>>> want to. The question is, how much of an inconvenience do the Sunday
>>>>> Trading laws cause? Following on from that, does any inconvenience
>>>>> represent religious oppression such as to make their repeal a matter of
>>>>> pressing importance? Doug obviously thinks so, but since when has he been
>>>>> right about anything?
>>>>>
>>>>It's easier.
>>>>I hate shopping with other people so it suits me.
>>>>
>>>Then shop online.
>>>No crowds, 24x365 opening, and greater customer rights.
>>>And it doesn't require the staff to up all night either.
>>
>>But it does require you to have someone available to take delivery.
>
>You have to put the shopping away no matter how it gets picked and
>delivered.
You don't just leave it all in a big bag and take out what you need
when required?
Strange people
Norman Wells
> "Norman Wells" <cm...@dibblers-pies.co.am> wrote in message
> news:%QIZm.8482$0I7....@newsfe16.ams2...
>>> Because they are a minority view imposed upon the majority.
>>
>> The vast majority of shops in towns are shut on Sundays even within
>> the hours they are permitted to be open. How has that got anything
>> at all to do with Sunday Trading laws and the imposition of a
>> minority view on the majority?
>>
> Where do you live?
In a town that's not atypical.
> I've never seen that anywhere that I've lived.
I'm sorry for all those who live in deprived areas, especially where the
major recreational activity is shopping at Lidl, really I am.
> The only places that close all day on Sundays IME are wholesalers and
> trade suppliers like electrical factors for the simple reason that
> few, if any, tradesmen work on Sundays.
Travel broadens the mind, or so they say.
>>>> What effect would repealing them have?
>>>
>>> More importantly, why are they still in existence. The effect is
>>> simply giving people more liberty.
>>
>> There are many laws on the Statute book that have simply not been
>> repealed because there has been no need to take up Parliamentary
>> time to repeal them. They just stop being enforced.
>>
>> Why don't you tell us all just what you think the difference would
>> be if they were repealed tomorrow?
>>
> Supermarkets would open 24/7
Probably so. Hey, big deal. They're already open 24/6 + 6/1
> Chain stores on High Streets would keep normal hours on Sundays.
Which in my town, and many like it, is, er, zero.
> Some smaller stores might increase their hours as well.
Doubtful. The majority don't open at all on Sundays as it is. And I can't
see many that do already open wanting to stay open either before 10am or
after 6pm either.
Norman Wells
> "Norman Wells" <cm...@dibblers-pies.co.am> wrote in message
> news:k7JZm.20952$hg5....@newsfe05.ams2...
>> First, the stores would have to decide to open for longer hours even
>> if they were permitted. That's not necessarily true, though I
>> accept it probably is for large supermarkets. The current ability
>> of small shops to open 24/7 certainly does not mean that they do. Most
>> close all day on Sundays and will continue to do so regardless.
>>
> Well bo-ho for them.
> I never use small shops as they are rip-off merchants. Supermarkets
> do me just fine.
That's OK, as long as you like your hair done by Asda and your clothes from
the back to school range. But I suspect you're in the minority.
>> And how many does 'legions of others' really represent? How many,
>> seriously, actually want to go shopping between 00.00 and 10.00am on
>> a Sunday, or between 18.00 and 24.00? They are the only times that
>> are currently officially restricted. Of those, who might think
>> about going shopping at those times, how many would really only
>> think about it because they can, not because they can't actually go
>> shopping on a Sunday in the period 10.00 to 18.00 when the shop can
>> legally be open?
> Why should I not be allowed to shop whenever I like?
You probably can't anyway. Most shops shut overnight, except for large
urban supermarkets of course, so it doesn't follow that permission to open
longer necesssarily results in your being able to shop when you like. The
shops in general determine when they'll open.
> Why should a
> supermarket be stopped from opening by bible bashers? Nobody is
> asking them to go shopping at all if they don't like it but I don't
> like them bothering my liberty.
I suspect you're lying if you say you really want to go shopping before 10am
or between 6pm and midnight on a Sunday, and I think you're especailly
precious if you maintain that this is an intolerable burden on your
God-given right to buy carrots whenever you want.
Mr X
> Mr X wrote:
>> "Norman Wells" <cm...@dibblers-pies.co.am> wrote in message
>> news:%QIZm.8482$0I7....@newsfe16.ams2...
>>>> Because they are a minority view imposed upon the majority.
>>>
>>> The vast majority of shops in towns are shut on Sundays even within
>>> the hours they are permitted to be open. How has that got anything
>>> at all to do with Sunday Trading laws and the imposition of a
>>> minority view on the majority?
>>>
>> Where do you live?
>
> In a town that's not atypical.
>
>> I've never seen that anywhere that I've lived.
>
> I'm sorry for all those who live in deprived areas, especially where the
> major recreational activity is shopping at Lidl, really I am.
>
deprived.
Probably both richer areas than you live in.
>> Supermarkets would open 24/7
>
> Probably so. Hey, big deal. They're already open 24/6 + 6/1
>
I want them open 24/7 so I can ue them when I feel like it.
>> Chain stores on High Streets would keep normal hours on Sundays.
>
> Which in my town, and many like it, is, er, zero.
>
Where do you live? Bucolicville?
>> Some smaller stores might increase their hours as well.
>
> Doubtful. The majority don't open at all on Sundays as it is. And I
> can't see many that do already open wanting to stay open either before
> 10am or after 6pm either.
>
They are certainly open elsewhere outside your head.
Mr X
> Mr X wrote:
>> "Norman Wells" <cm...@dibblers-pies.co.am> wrote in message
>> news:k7JZm.20952$hg5....@newsfe05.ams2...
>>> First, the stores would have to decide to open for longer hours even
>>> if they were permitted. That's not necessarily true, though I
>>> accept it probably is for large supermarkets. The current ability
>>> of small shops to open 24/7 certainly does not mean that they do. Most
>>> close all day on Sundays and will continue to do so regardless.
>>>
>> Well bo-ho for them.
>> I never use small shops as they are rip-off merchants. Supermarkets
>> do me just fine.
>
> That's OK, as long as you like your hair done by Asda and your clothes
> from the back to school range. But I suspect you're in the minority.
>
Street? Or do you only use a tailor?
>
>>> And how many does 'legions of others' really represent? How many,
>>> seriously, actually want to go shopping between 00.00 and 10.00am on
>>> a Sunday, or between 18.00 and 24.00? They are the only times that
>>> are currently officially restricted. Of those, who might think
>>> about going shopping at those times, how many would really only
>>> think about it because they can, not because they can't actually go
>>> shopping on a Sunday in the period 10.00 to 18.00 when the shop can
>>> legally be open?
>> Why should I not be allowed to shop whenever I like?
>
> You probably can't anyway. Most shops shut overnight, except for large
> urban supermarkets of course, so it doesn't follow that permission to open
> longer necesssarily results in your being able to shop when you like. The
> shops in general determine when they'll open.
>
As I said I like supermarkets, and they would open.
>> Why should a
>> supermarket be stopped from opening by bible bashers? Nobody is
>> asking them to go shopping at all if they don't like it but I don't
>> like them bothering my liberty.
>
> I suspect you're lying if you say you really want to go shopping before
> 10am or between 6pm and midnight on a Sunday, and I think you're
> especailly precious if you maintain that this is an intolerable burden on
> your God-given right to buy carrots whenever you want.
>
I often want something on a Sunday evening and can't buy it.
Why should anyone else dictate when a shop should be open?
webreader
I've just been down to the high street, & I can't tell you just how
upset I am.
I can't see the bank manager, buy a house, can't browse in the
decorators or the plumbers, can't check out the hardware shop, get my
hair or feet done or order double glazing, do these people reliase how
much more money they would make if they opened on a Sunday.
WSR
Doug
way that suits them, not at the arbitrary dictates of a bunch of
Christians.
Norman Wells
> On 27 Dec, 14:26, Phil Stovell <p...@stovell.nospam.org.uk> wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 23:37:05 -0800, Doug wrote:
>>> I heard on the radio that Paganism is on the increase and I also
>>> heard that only 7% of the population go to church at Christ-Mass.
>>
>> Isn't paganism just another flavour of sky-fairy belief?
>>
> Yes but they choose to celebrate according to the Earth's orbit in any
> way that suits them, not at the arbitrary dictates of a bunch of
> Christians.
About as rational then, wouldn't you say?
Phil Stovell
> On 27 Dec, 14:26, Phil Stovell <p...@stovell.nospam.org.uk> wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 23:37:05 -0800, Doug wrote:
>> > I heard on the radio that Paganism is on the increase and I also heard
>> > that only 7% of the population go to church at Christ-Mass.
>>
>> Isn't paganism just another flavour of sky-fairy belief?
>>
> Yes but they choose to celebrate according to the Earth's orbit in any way
> that suits them, not at the arbitrary dictates of a bunch of Christians.
WTF does that mean? They celebrate in ellipses? Just as bonkers as the
rest of them.
NM
I live in a small west country town, our supermarket is open 24 hours
and whenever I go in during the night I am not the only shopper. Also
they are forced to closed 2359 on Saturday, there are queues trying to
get paid up before the till closes. Your asserttion that there is no
demand is totally false.
NM
No, I agree it's irrational as any 'faith' is but at least they don't
try to dictate everyone elses behaviour because of their creed, that's
what is wrong, believe what you like, there in no cap on stupidity but
keep your stupidity out of my life please.
Norman Wells
But the more that celebrate the solstice, the fewer people there'll be at
work, which means that services like shops and public transport will suffer,
ie it'll be Christmas by just another name. So, it will affect other people
because of their creed.
Happi Monday
>> There are many laws on the Statute book that have simply not been repealed
>> because there has been no need to take up Parliamentary time to repeal
>> them. They just stop being enforced.
>>
>> Why don't you tell us all just what you think the difference would be if
>> they were repealed tomorrow?
>>
> Supermarkets would open 24/7
> Chain stores on High Streets would keep normal hours on Sundays.
> Some smaller stores might increase their hours as well.
Norman, being one of the blinkered minority, won't see your view (he'll
be in church, anyway!)
Happi Monday
> if you maintain that this is an intolerable burden
> on your God-given right to buy carrots whenever you want.
Nicely put, seeing it is God that is denying him said "right"
Happi Monday
> Happi Monday wrote:
>> On 27/12/2009 09:53, Norman Wells wrote:
>>
>>> But you've just illustrated how the Sunday Trading laws don't
>>> restrict anyone.
>>
>
> And what evidence, if any, do you have for that?
Evidence? He didn't say anything of the sort. You show me where he gave
evidence.
Norman Wells
I don't think he will.
Mr X
Norman Wells
But only on one day of the week, and even then only outside of the period
10am to 6pm during which God clearly thinks it perfectly OK to buy and sell
carrots, despite the fact that it's his day.
Are you sure it's not something secular, like the law perhaps?
Mr X
Still what would I expect from director of the "Family Education Trust"?
http://www.famyouth.org.uk/
A backwards organisation if ever I saw one!
Norman Wells
What do you expect of a soccer boss in a brothel?
Mr X
NM
> "Norman Wells" <cm...@dibblers-pies.co.am> wrote in message
>
> news:ncNZm.9447$oQ5...@newsfe25.ams2...> Happi Monday wrote:
> >> On 27/12/2009 15:15, Norman Wells wrote:
>
> >>> if you maintain that this is an intolerable burden
> >>> on your God-given right to buy carrots whenever you want.
>
> >> Nicely put, seeing it is God that is denying him said "right"
>
> > But only on one day of the week, and even then only outside of the period
> > 10am to 6pm during which God clearly thinks it perfectly OK to buy and
> > sell carrots, despite the fact that it's his day.
I don't belive it's 'his' day, it's everyones day, care to give me
'his' phone number then I can call up and check? Oh!, you can't, of
course you can't because 'he' only exists between your ears.
I don't care if you want to worship your dreams but I strongly object
when you force a change in my lifestyle because of your delusions. You
and your ilk have got away with this for generations, IMO it's time to
stop the deluded having any say in normal peoples lives.
NM
> Mr X wrote:
> > "Norman Wells" <cm...@dibblers-pies.co.am> wrote in message
> >news:ncNZm.9447$oQ5...@newsfe25.ams2...
> >> Happi Monday wrote:
> >>> On 27/12/2009 15:15, Norman Wells wrote:
>
> >>>> if you maintain that this is an intolerable burden
> >>>> on your God-given right to buy carrots whenever you want.
>
> >>> Nicely put, seeing it is God that is denying him said "right"
>
> >> But only on one day of the week, and even then only outside of the
> >> period 10am to 6pm during which God clearly thinks it perfectly OK
> >> to buy and sell carrots, despite the fact that it's his day.
>
> >> Are you sure it's not something secular, like the law perhaps?
>
> > Which was driven by Bible Bashers!
> > Still what would I expect from director of the "Family Education
> > A backwards organisation if ever I saw one!
>
> What do you expect of a soccer boss in a brothel?
>
What's the problem? He's an adult, I assume he knows what he's doing
and he is engaging in a recreational activity with a business that
caters for it. AFAIC it's nobody's businness except his.
Norman Wells
That whooshed straight over your head then.
Norman Wells
Oh dear. This conversation's way over your head now, isn't it?
Mr X
your campaign for family values.
Doug
located in reality as far as dates are concerned. Also, you don't have
to be religious to celebrate a significant point in the Earth's orbit
which is related to climate, instead of some made-up myth or calender.
Most important of all though is that their celebration is not forced
on the rest of the population, as the Christians do in the UK, though
I have no doubt that if Paganism replaced Christianity it would be
forced on us instead..
Doug
would expect a similar proportion of Pagans to celebrate, which is not
enough to cause serious disruption. It is the widespread legal
enforcement of the religious celebration that causes the problem.
Norman Wells
>>>>>> Are you sure it's not something secular, like the law perhaps?
>>>>
>>>>> Which was driven by Bible Bashers!
>>>>> Still what would I expect from director of the "Family Education
>>>>> Trust"?http://www.famyouth.org.uk/
>>>>> A backwards organisation if ever I saw one!
>>>>
>>>> What do you expect of a soccer boss in a brothel?
>>>>
>>>> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1238017/Premier-League-manage...
>>>
>>> What's the problem? He's an adult, I assume he knows what he's doing
>>> and he is engaging in a recreational activity with a business that
>>> caters for it. AFAIC it's nobody's businness except his.
>>
>> That whooshed straight over your head then.
>>
> I expect your problem with the other MrX is that he is rather at odds
> with your campaign for family values.
Just as your problem with the other Norman Wells is that he is rather at
odds with your shady activities in brothels.
Phil Stovell
Wasn't xmas pinched from the solstice celebrations, but they got it 4 days
out? Easter also being a spring celebration, I don't know if there's a
summer solstice xtian one, all hallows being autumn equinox (I think). So
the xtian loonies do basically do the same as the pagan loonies, just
that they've moved dates very slightly, probably so they can have 2
piss-ups suitably spaced for hangover cure reasons.
I do agree about being forced to celebrate it, I'd rather have gone out
for six pints of Crudgington's Old Gold Medal followed by a vindaloo, but
had to watch some crap on the TV instead. And canned OGM. And fucking
turkey.
Norman Wells
> Nope. In the same way that only 7% go to church at Christ-Mass one
> would expect a similar proportion of Pagans to celebrate, which is not
> enough to cause serious disruption. It is the widespread legal
> enforcement of the religious celebration that causes the problem.
What 'legal enforcement' do you have in mind, Doug? Which Acts of
Parliament, if any, have anything to do either with Christmas or enforced
religious celebration?
You see, I don't know of a single one.
I suspect you don't either.
Phil Stovell
Norman Wells
> On 27 Dec, 15:57, Phil Stovell <p...@stovell.nospam.org.uk> wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 07:45:37 -0800, Doug wrote:
>>> On 27 Dec, 14:26, Phil Stovell <p...@stovell.nospam.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 23:37:05 -0800, Doug wrote:
>>>>> I heard on the radio that Paganism is on the increase and I also
>>>>> heard that only 7% of the population go to church at Christ-Mass.
>>
>>>> Isn't paganism just another flavour of sky-fairy belief?
>>
>>> Yes but they choose to celebrate according to the Earth's orbit in
>>> any way that suits them, not at the arbitrary dictates of a bunch
>>> of Christians.
>>
>> WTF does that mean? They celebrate in ellipses? Just as bonkers as
>> the rest of them.
>>
> Yes as bonkers as are all religious fanatics but seemingly more firmly
> located in reality as far as dates are concerned.
Dates are merely what we call the days, and that's just a matter of
convention. We could just as easily number the days sequentially, and
celebrate every hundred or thousand if we want. That would be much more
computer friendly after all.
> Also, you don't have
> to be religious to celebrate a significant point in the Earth's orbit
> which is related to climate
If only it was, though. If June 21st was always, or even often, the hottest
day of the year, that would be worth knowing, and worth celebrating, but
sadly it isn't. Nor, given the variabilty of cloud cover, is it even the
day of longest useful light.
> instead of some made-up myth or calender.
> Most important of all though is that their celebration is not forced
> on the rest of the population, as the Christians do in the UK, though
> I have no doubt that if Paganism replaced Christianity it would be
> forced on us instead.
Much more likely is that we'll eventually be forced to fast for the ninth
lunar month every year.
NM
The sunday trading act is enforcement of christians desire to keep
sunday free for worship therefore enforces a religious celebration.