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complaints against police officers
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Ian Smith
Jul 19, 2012, 12:40:02 PM7/19/12
to
Is it usual for a police officer to avoid a disciplinary hearing by
retiring on medical grounds, working for another force for a bit and
then rejoining the original force, at which time no hearing is
required? How long would you need to work elsewhere?
Is it usual to retire from one force on medical grounds and
immediately (days later) start work for another?
Also, is a rate of 10 complaints in 12 years (for unlawful arrest,
abuse of authority, excessive force) a normal rate for a Met officer?
As reported in the press, these things look pretty shady, but maybe
that's all recognised as SOP and it's possible that the rate of
complaints is par for the course (or maybe even below average), and as
an outsider I have no way of knowing.
Of course, if it is the 'usual' way of carrying on, that raises its
own questions, but it would put a different slant on the press
reports.
regards, Ian SMith
--
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|o o|
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retiring on medical grounds, working for another force for a bit and
then rejoining the original force, at which time no hearing is
required? How long would you need to work elsewhere?
Is it usual to retire from one force on medical grounds and
immediately (days later) start work for another?
Also, is a rate of 10 complaints in 12 years (for unlawful arrest,
abuse of authority, excessive force) a normal rate for a Met officer?
As reported in the press, these things look pretty shady, but maybe
that's all recognised as SOP and it's possible that the rate of
complaints is par for the course (or maybe even below average), and as
an outsider I have no way of knowing.
Of course, if it is the 'usual' way of carrying on, that raises its
own questions, but it would put a different slant on the press
reports.
regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|
jj22...@gmail.com
Jul 19, 2012, 3:20:02 PM7/19/12
to
> Also, is a rate of 10 complaints in 12 years (for unlawful arrest,
> abuse of authority, excessive force) a normal rate for a Met officer?
Complaint rates obviously depend on the officer's line of work. 10 in 12 years is very low for a response officer, 1 or 2 per night is more likely.
> abuse of authority, excessive force) a normal rate for a Met officer?
There are also different ways of handling complaints force by force, team by team. As an example an off-duty Met officer was involved in an RTC outside of force area, and his boss blue-lighted to the scene to ensure no complaint was made. By contrast an officer in another force had a similar accident and his force launched a dangerous driving investigation.
Judith
Jul 19, 2012, 1:55:02 PM7/19/12
to
On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 17:40:02 +0100, Ian Smith <i...@astounding.org.uk> wrote:
>Is it usual for a police officer to avoid a disciplinary hearing by
>retiring on medical grounds, working for another force for a bit and
>then rejoining the original force, at which time no hearing is
>required? How long would you need to work elsewhere?
>
>Is it usual to retire from one force on medical grounds and
>immediately (days later) start work for another?
There is a recent case where there seems to be some confusion.
>Is it usual for a police officer to avoid a disciplinary hearing by
>retiring on medical grounds, working for another force for a bit and
>then rejoining the original force, at which time no hearing is
>required? How long would you need to work elsewhere?
>
>Is it usual to retire from one force on medical grounds and
>immediately (days later) start work for another?
It now appears that an officer resigned as a Metropolitan Police constable in
September 2001 on medical grounds, he then rejoined the force without missing a
day’s work as a civilian worker, and ensured he would not face any potential
disciplinary charges against him. This ex-officer then joined another force
as a PC before returning to the Met.
Periander
Jul 19, 2012, 8:35:02 PM7/19/12
to
On 19-Jul-2012, Ian Smith <i...@astounding.org.uk> wrote:
> Also, is a rate of 10 complaints in 12 years (for unlawful arrest,
> abuse of authority, excessive force) a normal rate for a Met officer?
said that an officer who didn't attract complaints wasn't working. If you
want to take a minute or two to think about it regardless of the behavior of
a particular police officer each and every police officer has to deal with
criminals on a day in day out basis. Criminals can be liars, can be violent
and will do everything they can to avoid paying the penalty for their crime.
Of course a series of complaints about a particular officer can well
indicate that he's doing the job wrong but overall I wouldn't take to much
notice of an officers previous complaints record unless there was something
particularly specific being sought/illustrated.
--
All the best,
Periander
IF you think this http://bit.ly/u5EP3p is cruel
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Chris R
Jul 20, 2012, 6:10:02 AM7/20/12
to
>
>
> "August West" wrote in message news:877gty7...@news2.kororaa.com...
>
>
> The entity calling itself Periander wrote:
> >
> > Of course a series of complaints about a particular officer can well
> > indicate that he's doing the job wrong but overall I wouldn't take to
> > much notice of an officers previous complaints record unless there was
> > something particularly specific being sought/illustrated.
>
> Like some of the complaints coming from fellow officers?
>
> The entity calling itself Periander wrote:
> >
> > Of course a series of complaints about a particular officer can well
> > indicate that he's doing the job wrong but overall I wouldn't take to
> > much notice of an officers previous complaints record unless there was
> > something particularly specific being sought/illustrated.
>
>
There is some suggestion that the number of complaints from fellow officers
is the reason for the disproportionate number of disciplinary cases against
black officers.
--
Chris R
Periander
Jul 20, 2012, 6:15:02 AM7/20/12
to
On 20-Jul-2012, August West <aug...@kororaa.com> wrote:
> >
> > Of course a series of complaints about a particular officer can well
> > indicate that he's doing the job wrong but overall I wouldn't take to
> > much notice of an officers previous complaints record unless there was
> > something particularly specific being sought/illustrated.
>
> Like some of the complaints coming from fellow officers?
In this day and age sadly yes - some of them, I am aware of some very
spurious claims made by some police officers about others.
As I say though I don't want to go into the ins and out of a particular case
here in the moderated group.
Periander
Jul 20, 2012, 6:25:04 AM7/20/12
to
On 20-Jul-2012, "Chris R" <inv...@invalid.munge.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> There is some suggestion that the number of complaints from fellow
> officers
> is the reason for the disproportionate number of disciplinary cases
> against black officers.
"equality quotas" police recruits from black and other visible ethnic
minorities are not treated the same way as white British recruits. Despite
the fact that there are a great many exceptional black police officers a
greater proportion of black and VEM officers should never have been employed
in the first place as they simply don't meet the necessary standards.
Consequently they more often fail in service.
Ste
Jul 20, 2012, 7:00:04 AM7/20/12
to
On Jul 20, 1:35 am, "Periander" <u...@britwar.couk> wrote:
> On 19-Jul-2012, Ian Smith <i...@astounding.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > Also, is a rate of 10 complaints in 12 years (for unlawful arrest,
> > abuse of authority, excessive force) a normal rate for a Met officer?
>
> Without delving to deeply into the particular case in question it used to be
> said that an officer who didn't attract complaints wasn't working. If you
> want to take a minute or two to think about it regardless of the behavior of
> a particular police officer each and every police officer has to deal with
> criminals on a day in day out basis. Criminals can be liars, can be violent
> and will do everything they can to avoid paying the penalty for their crime.
>
> Of course a series of complaints about a particular officer can well
> indicate that he's doing the job wrong but overall I wouldn't take to much
> notice of an officers previous complaints record unless there was something
> particularly specific being sought/illustrated.
A complaint per se is not indicative of misconduct. The point is the
> On 19-Jul-2012, Ian Smith <i...@astounding.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > Also, is a rate of 10 complaints in 12 years (for unlawful arrest,
> > abuse of authority, excessive force) a normal rate for a Met officer?
>
> Without delving to deeply into the particular case in question it used to be
> said that an officer who didn't attract complaints wasn't working. If you
> want to take a minute or two to think about it regardless of the behavior of
> a particular police officer each and every police officer has to deal with
> criminals on a day in day out basis. Criminals can be liars, can be violent
> and will do everything they can to avoid paying the penalty for their crime.
>
> Of course a series of complaints about a particular officer can well
> indicate that he's doing the job wrong but overall I wouldn't take to much
> notice of an officers previous complaints record unless there was something
> particularly specific being sought/illustrated.
substance of the complaint. Harwood seemed to have attracted
complaints from several of his own colleagues, specifically concerning
his unlawful treatment of the public, and as we've seen from the
evidence of his conduct and character in this case, those previous
allegations were almost certainly true.
Ian Smith
Jul 20, 2012, 10:25:02 AM7/20/12
to
On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 12:00:04 +0100, Ste <ste_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 20, 1:35 am, "Periander" <u...@britwar.couk> wrote:
> > On 19-Jul-2012, Ian Smith <i...@astounding.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > Also, is a rate of 10 complaints in 12 years (for unlawful
> > > arrest, abuse of authority, excessive force) a normal rate for a
> > > Met officer?
> >
> On Jul 20, 1:35 am, "Periander" <u...@britwar.couk> wrote:
> > On 19-Jul-2012, Ian Smith <i...@astounding.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > Also, is a rate of 10 complaints in 12 years (for unlawful
> > > arrest, abuse of authority, excessive force) a normal rate for a
> > > Met officer?
> >
> > Of course a series of complaints about a particular officer can
> > well indicate that he's doing the job wrong but overall I wouldn't
> > take to much notice of an officers previous complaints record
> > unless there was something particularly specific being
> > sought/illustrated.
>
> A complaint per se is not indicative of misconduct. The point is
> the substance of the complaint. Harwood seemed to have attracted
> complaints from several of his own colleagues, specifically
> concerning his unlawful treatment of the public, and as we've seen
> from the evidence of his conduct and character in this case, those
> previous allegations were almost certainly true.
I'm more troubled by a complaint that is judged to justify a formal
> > well indicate that he's doing the job wrong but overall I wouldn't
> > take to much notice of an officers previous complaints record
> > unless there was something particularly specific being
> > sought/illustrated.
>
> A complaint per se is not indicative of misconduct. The point is
> the substance of the complaint. Harwood seemed to have attracted
> complaints from several of his own colleagues, specifically
> concerning his unlawful treatment of the public, and as we've seen
> from the evidence of his conduct and character in this case, those
> previous allegations were almost certainly true.
hearing process but is evaded by taking medical 'retirement' which
features actually still working for the police than by teh number of
complaints per se.
Robin Bignall
Jul 20, 2012, 12:05:02 PM7/20/12
to
On Fri, 20 Jul 2012 15:25:02 +0100, Ian Smith <i...@astounding.org.uk>
wrote:
Today's papers are full of Harwood's history, and it's not pleasant
reading about how he could waltz from force to force, job to job without
any of his past ever being considered.
--
Robin Bignall
Herts, England
wrote:
reading about how he could waltz from force to force, job to job without
any of his past ever being considered.
--
Robin Bignall
Herts, England
Frederick Williams
Jul 20, 2012, 2:00:04 PM7/20/12
to
Periander wrote:
>
> [...] Criminals can be liars, can be violent
Because it is no more or less true if one substitutes 'Members of the
public' or 'Police officers' for 'Criminals.'
--
The animated figures stand
Adorning every public street
And seem to breathe in stone, or
Move their marble feet.
>
> [...] Criminals can be liars, can be violent
> and will do everything they can to avoid paying the penalty for their crime.
That is true, but quite uninteresting. Why do I say uninteresting?
Because it is no more or less true if one substitutes 'Members of the
public' or 'Police officers' for 'Criminals.'
--
The animated figures stand
Adorning every public street
And seem to breathe in stone, or
Move their marble feet.
Periander
Jul 20, 2012, 7:25:02 PM7/20/12
to
On 20-Jul-2012, Frederick Williams <freddyw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > [...] Criminals can be liars, can be violent
> > and will do everything they can to avoid paying the penalty for their
> > crime.
>
> That is true, but quite uninteresting. Why do I say uninteresting?
> Because it is no more or less true if one substitutes 'Members of the
> public' or 'Police officers' for 'Criminals.'
jj22...@gmail.com
Jul 20, 2012, 8:00:06 PM7/20/12
to
> The real reason unpalatable as it is is that in their drive to fill
> "equality quotas" police recruits from black and other visible ethnic
> minorities are not treated the same way as white British recruits. Despite
> the fact that there are a great many exceptional black police officers a
> greater proportion of black and VEM officers should never have been employed
> in the first place as they simply don't meet the necessary standards.
> the fact that there are a great many exceptional black police officers a
> greater proportion of black and VEM officers should never have been employed
> Consequently they more often fail in service.
To put some context to Periander's point. The average time from application to training is 18 months. The average time for someone from an ethnic minority background is 2 months. Ethnic minority applicants also quality for advice on how to fill in the application form, coaching for the English and numeracy tests, are helped prepare for the interview and get encouragement from an ACPO rank. White applicants get none of this.
Recently in our area, all white applicants that make it through the paper stages have at least some policing experience, e.g. as a PCSO, or a special. An ethnic minority applicant does not need any of that experience.
Unfortunately the real world has people in it who don't make the same allowances as the recruitment process. Especially when it causes other officers to get hurt. It's then their first sergeant who has to pick up the pieces and, unfortunately, some new recruits respond to criticism by claiming it is racially motivated.
Nothing in the above means any race is particularly bad, it's just that filtering process that weeds out poor applicants is not uniformly applied.
Ophelia
Jul 21, 2012, 12:30:03 PM7/21/12
to
"Robin Bignall" <docr...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:470j08haefpequln7...@4ax.com...
--
--
http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/
Periander
Jul 21, 2012, 4:30:02 PM7/21/12
to
On 21-Jul-2012, "Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.uk> wrote:
> > Today's papers are full of Harwood's history, and it's not pleasant
> > reading about how he could waltz from force to force, job to job without
> > any of his past ever being considered.
>
> Quite and that is the problem I have with this!
out that recruitment and vetting is one of the first areas to be
"civilianised" and that I have for several years been bemoaning the quality
of the recruitment process and the quality of many recruits for the police?
Ophelia
Jul 21, 2012, 5:00:13 PM7/21/12
to
"Periander" <u...@britwar.couk> wrote in message
news:a70hjg...@mid.individual.net...
>
> On 21-Jul-2012, "Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> > Today's papers are full of Harwood's history, and it's not pleasant
>> > reading about how he could waltz from force to force, job to job
>> > without
>> > any of his past ever being considered.
>>
>> Quite and that is the problem I have with this!
>
> The same problem every one has ... would it be appropriate for me to point
> out that recruitment and vetting is one of the first areas to be
> "civilianised" and that I have for several years been bemoaning the
> quality
> of the recruitment process and the quality of many recruits for the
> police?
It most certainly would!
> On 21-Jul-2012, "Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> > Today's papers are full of Harwood's history, and it's not pleasant
>> > reading about how he could waltz from force to force, job to job
>> > without
>> > any of his past ever being considered.
>>
>> Quite and that is the problem I have with this!
>
> The same problem every one has ... would it be appropriate for me to point
> out that recruitment and vetting is one of the first areas to be
> "civilianised" and that I have for several years been bemoaning the
> quality
> of the recruitment process and the quality of many recruits for the
> police?
--
--
http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/
Periander
Jul 21, 2012, 6:20:03 PM7/21/12
to
> It most certainly would!
In that case would it also be appropriate to point out that the underlying
purpose of the Winsor "reforms" is to privatise and civilianise even more
police functions?
In that case would it also be appropriate to point out that the underlying
purpose of the Winsor "reforms" is to privatise and civilianise even more
police functions?
Periander
Jul 21, 2012, 7:40:01 PM7/21/12
to
On 21-Jul-2012, jj22...@gmail.com wrote:
> Nothing in the above means any race is particularly bad, it's just that
> filtering process that weeds out poor applicants is not uniformly applied.
Ophelia
Jul 22, 2012, 7:50:03 AM7/22/12
to
"Periander" <u...@britwar.couk> wrote in message
>
> On 21-Jul-2012, "Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> It most certainly would!
>
> In that case would it also be appropriate to point out that the underlying
> purpose of the Winsor "reforms" is to privatise and civilianise even more
> police functions?
I Didn't Know That:(
> On 21-Jul-2012, "Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> It most certainly would!
>
> In that case would it also be appropriate to point out that the underlying
> purpose of the Winsor "reforms" is to privatise and civilianise even more
> police functions?
--
--
http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/
Tired
Jul 22, 2012, 5:05:09 PM7/22/12
to
Chris R wrote:
::: "August West" wrote in message
Or maybe its the disproportionate number of black officers involved in
corruption? If the BPA is anything to go by....
::: "August West" wrote in message
corruption? If the BPA is anything to go by....
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