Deadlands
wotan
Has nay one played Deadlands by Pinnacle?
If so, is it any good?
Whats it like?
etc
thanks
Lee Garvin
wotan <wo...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in article
<6jr524$k2l$1...@newsource.ihug.co.nz>...
Absolutely, positively, a fan-freakin'-tabulous game! Granted, the
background is a bit skewed from the real history, and this has upset
several of the more anal-retentive history buffs out there who aren't happy
with it just being a great game - they want it to be a scholarly work of
socio-political research, as well! There are a couple of big chunks of
altered history that you need to swallow, but Pinnacle was very wise in
following the first rule of good fantasy: You can insert one normal element
into an unreasonable setting, or you can insert one unreasonable element
into a normal setting - never more than one. All of the altered bits of
history, and the reality of the world itself, stem from one single event,
The Reckoning, that made everything else possible.
Too many games try to throw in a whole bunch of unreasonable elements into
the mix, mostly because they are catering to munchkins who _want_ to play
an undead starfighter pilot/wizard cyborg with super-powers.
Now, I'm not saying Deadlands is munchkin proof. In fact, some of the
character types can be abused horribly! But the rational behind the
character types make sense, given the world, and for a Role Player, that's
the important part.
The system is a little difficult to get used to, but stick with it: when
you have it down, it runs smoothly and is lots of fun.
--
Lee Garvin (Who has never played an undead starfighter pilot/wizard cyborg
with super-powers, but is in search of a lenient GM)
"I refuse to raise my fist to another man... unless it's got a gun in it!
Blam! Blam!"
Philip Masters
Be warned - you have to put up with some fairly gruesome fake-western
"colloquial" writing. Which is the first thing that's put me off trying it.
The second is the fact that you need polyhedral dice, playing cards, AND
poker chips to play. Oh, and you keep track of your ammunition supply with
a paperclip on your character sheet.
Sorry. Being negative again...
--
Phil Masters
* Home Page: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Phil_Masters
* Note: I have kill-filed all "Multipart/Alternative" postings. HTML is
very nice, but not on Usenet.
Lucya Szachnowski
In article <01bd82f5$0d1c5180$649c...@leegarv.erols.com>, Lee Garvin
<lee...@erols.com> writes
>Pinnacle was very wise in
>following the first rule of good fantasy: You can insert one normal element
>into an unreasonable setting, or you can insert one unreasonable element
>into a normal setting - never more than one.
I've heard this before, from some very scholarly sources. Although you
can't go far wrong following that rule, it certainly isn't always true.
There has been some great fantasy that is somewhere between the extremes
of either 'It's like the real world except that...' or, 'its a totally
marvellous world, where everything is magical except that you guys from
Earth are there' or whatever.
>
--
Lucya Szachnowski
Lee Garvin
Lucya Szachnowski <lu...@achlys.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<B6NxlCAL...@achlys.demon.co.uk>...
> I've heard this before, from some very scholarly sources. Although you
> can't go far wrong following that rule, it certainly isn't always true.
> There has been some great fantasy that is somewhere between the extremes
> of either 'It's like the real world except that...' or, 'its a totally
> marvellous world, where everything is magical except that you guys from
> Earth are there' or whatever.
>
Yes, there has been some excellent fantasy that fell between the two
extremes (_Bearing an Hourglass_ comes to mind), but by and large, a writer
has to be Very good, and Very confident to pull it off. Most writers -
those that range in skill between Slightly-Below-Genius to Cut-Rate-Hack -
will have trouble pulling off too wild a mix without the world getting
"muddy." Internal consistency is vital to the structure of any story, even
moreso in fantasy, where you define _reality_ as well as the situation.
With too many deviant elements, internal consistency begins to break down
and you have real problems with believability. If you don't believe me,
just take a look at any Marvel comic published within the last ten years
(except for anything written by Peter David - da boy can write!).
--
Lee Garvin
Philip Masters
In article: <01bd82f5$0d1c5180$649c...@leegarv.erols.com> "Lee Garvin"
<lee...@erols.com> writes:
> ... Pinnacle was very wise in
> following the first rule of good fantasy: You can insert one normal
> element into an unreasonable setting, or you can insert one unreasonable
> bits of history, and the reality of the world itself, stem from one
> single event, The Reckoning, that made everything else possible.
Hang on; (1) In 1740, Edmond Hoyle encoded systems of European sorcery into
a book on card games. (2) In 1863, the Last Sons triggered The Reckoning.
(3) In 1872, Raven trashed California; okay, that could be considered a
consequence of 2, but it led to the discovery of Ghost Rock, a wondrous
plot device that can justify pretty well anything.
Now, unless you're prepared to claim that Hoyle's work really *does*
contain sorcerous techniques, AND that Ghost Rock really exists, is buried
beneath California, but hasn't been discovered yet, I make that three
different divergences from our history.
--
Phil Masters
* Home Page: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Phil_Masters
* "Battle not with flamers, lest you become a flamer; and stare not too
deeply into the 'net, or you will find the 'net staring into you."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche (loosely translated)
Aidan Rogers
Philip Masters <Ph...@philm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
<liberal snipping>
: The second is the fact that you need polyhedral dice, playing cards, AND
: poker chips to play.
What?!? A roleplaying game that needs dice??! What is the world coming to?!
Aidan
Philip Masters
In article: <89565303...@sparc.tibus.net> Aidan Rogers
> What?!? A roleplaying game that needs dice??! What is the world coming
> to?!
But do we really need all those different polyhedrons? I thought that only
D&D suffered from that. But I'm an old Traveller/Hero System/GURPS bore.
Anyway, *Deadlands* slings in cards AND poker chips as well. (Propophilia?
Propomania? Amour Prop-er?)
--
Phil Masters
* Home Page: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Phil_Masters
John Scott
In article <89565303...@sparc.tibus.net>, Aidan Rogers
<ai...@crux.blackstar.co.uk> wrote:
> Philip Masters <Ph...@philm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> <liberal snipping>
>
> : The second is the fact that you need polyhedral dice, playing cards, AND
> : poker chips to play.
>
> What?!? A roleplaying game that needs dice??! What is the world coming to?!
Nothing wrong with dice as a system for randomisation. Nothing wrong with
using different types of dice in the same game, to allow for different
probability curves.
Nothing wrong with cards as a system for randomisation.
But Deadlands needs both. You'll be using D4s to D20s (IIRC) and you'll
need at least two decks of cards - possibly 3 if you've got a huckster in
the game.
It's not a simple conflict resolution system.
I think that might have been Phils point.
John
(Not to mention the poker chips ...)
The University and I agree on a lot, but not necessarily this ...
Aidan Rogers
: <ai...@crux.blackstar.co.uk> writes:
:> What?!? A role-playing game that needs dice??! What is the world coming
:> to?!
: But do we really need all those different polyhedrons? I thought that only
: D&D suffered from that. But I'm an old Traveller/Hero System/GURPS bore.
: Anyway, *Deadlands* slings in cards AND poker chips as well. (Propophilia?
: Propomania? Amour Prop-er?)
Ah, I see what you are saying now Phil. Personally the different types of
dice don't bother me, as long as you only roll 1 or 2 at a time (not 7 or
8 a la White Wolf), but then I played AD&D a lot before I learnt what
role-playing was about.
As for the "props", I don't mind the odd gimmick thrown in here or there, as
long as it is optional, and doesn't bog the game down. The drama deck from
Torg is an example. You can't really play the game without it, and yet
it is so damn annoying that it makes the game difficult to play when you
do use it. *sigh*
Anyhow, I'll reserve judgement on deadlands till I've played it :)
(which should hopefully be within the next few weeks).
Aidan
Lucya Szachnowski
In article <01bd83b6$e3549660$659c...@leegarv.erols.com>, Lee Garvin
<lee...@erols.com> writes
I've read some great surreal fiction (and seen a surreal play) where the
actual internal consistency is the thing that is played around with in
the novel or play. Have you read anything by Jorge Luis Borges or Julio
Cortazar? The play I saw had the word 'mobius' in the title - can't
remember who wrote it or the full name, it deliberately mis-used
theatrical conventions for portraying the passing of time. Just when you
thought you had worked out what was happening, the 'framework' of
consistency in which is was set altered. It was wonderful, though weird.
--
Lucya Szachnowski
The Philosopher's Stone
Philip Masters <Ph...@philm.demon.co.uk> writes
>Anyway, *Deadlands* slings in cards AND poker chips as well. (Propophilia?
>Propomania? Amour Prop-er?)
never got into Deadlands. Dice is cool, cards are acceptable but both
together AND poker chips smells to me like there were system design
problems.
~ "There is no Mathematical substitute for Philosophy" ~
Saul Kripke ~ "Truth and Meaning"
Richard Hale
Ok, I'm extrapolating (in public too) from the GRW minaitures game but...
They (cards, dice and chips) are used for different elements in the game
system. Dice are for now decisions, hit miss etc. Cards are for sequencing
actions and stay on the table throughout a turn. Chips are used for long
term (and finite) advantages (rerolls, dice boosts). It all works well in
practice, except for the space required to lay out the cards!
Lee Garvin
> actual internal consistency is the thing that is played around with in
> the novel or play. Have you read anything by Jorge Luis Borges or Julio
> Cortazar? The play I saw had the word 'mobius' in the title - can't
> remember who wrote it or the full name, it deliberately mis-used
> theatrical conventions for portraying the passing of time. Just when you
> thought you had worked out what was happening, the 'framework' of
> consistency in which is was set altered. It was wonderful, though weird.
> --
that surrealism is not the same as fantasy. In fantasy, the reality of the
world is monkeyed with in order to tell a particular story. In surrealism,
the monkeying with reality IS the story.
Lee Garvin
Philip Masters <Ph...@philm.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
> Hang on; (1) In 1740, Edmond Hoyle encoded systems of European sorcery
into
> a book on card games. (2) In 1863, the Last Sons triggered The Reckoning.
> (3) In 1872, Raven trashed California; okay, that could be considered a
> consequence of 2, but it led to the discovery of Ghost Rock, a wondrous
> plot device that can justify pretty well anything.
>
> Now, unless you're prepared to claim that Hoyle's work really *does*
> contain sorcerous techniques, AND that Ghost Rock really exists, is
buried
> beneath California, but hasn't been discovered yet, I make that three
> different divergences from our history.
(1) Granted, that stretches a bit, but before the Reckoning, that magic was
mostly useless. The Reckoning caused magic to explode. Hoyle was, in fact,
known to study (if not dabble in) the occult.
(2) Reckoning
(3) The Ghost Rock was PUT there by the Reckoning. This is explained in the
various supplements (and it is a BAD THING, metaphysically speaking).
Lee Garvin
John Scott <j.f....@bton.ac.uk> wrote in article <j.f.scott-
> But Deadlands needs both. You'll be using D4s to D20s (IIRC) and you'll
> need at least two decks of cards - possibly 3 if you've got a huckster in
> the game.
Actually, the system runs very smoothly. The cards are used for Character
Creation, Initiative, and Magic. A character who has no dealing with magic
needs only to worry about initiative during the game.
The cards actually speed up combat. The game is similar to Shadowrun, in
that a character may have multiple actions in a round, and these are
resolved individually, but a single combat between six PCs and a single Big
Nasty (tm) can take an hour in Shadowrun, as opposed to twenty minutes in
Deadlands. (not knocking Shadowrun, I love it, too)
> It's not a simple conflict resolution system.
It is once you get the hang of it. And that, of course, is true of any
game.
> John
> (Not to mention the poker chips ...)
The poker chips are simply a clever way to handle Fate Points - not a new
concept at all.
Personally, I like adding the cards and chips to the game: they add a
physical level of interaction that can increase a player's involvement. If
you have to erase a number on your character sheet and write down a new one
to represent spending Fate, there's a certain detachment from the action.
On the other hand, If taking your Fate into your own hands involves a more
physical action (tossing a chip at your GM), you tend to realize how
important it is - especially since you are parting with something real.
I am all in favor of physical playing aids like this - Fate Chips, Play
Money, etc. because it makes the role-playing part of the game that much
easier for people to get into (especially novices).
David Brain
In article <34974...@philm.demon.co.uk>, Ph...@philm.demon.co.uk (Philip
Masters) wrote:
> Now, unless you're prepared to claim that Hoyle's work really *does*
> contain sorcerous techniques
And how would you know if it didn't?
Read "The Hoyley Blood and the Hoyley Grail" if you don't believe me ...
;-)
David Brain
London, UK
> Light creates shadow; light destroys shadow. <
> Such is the transience of darkness. <
Tony Lane
I have run Deadlands a few times, and I find that the dice and cards system
works very well. The Poker chips are a bit different, if you don't like the
idea, then it's easy enough not to use them. I like using the chips for
bounty(exp) as the players get a real feeling of having received it.
I can see you're point though, even if I don't share your viewpoint.
The Philosopher's Stone wrote in message ...
John Scott
In article <6jv5v3$8d1$1...@camel18.mindspring.com>, "Richard Hale"
<richardh...@SPAMpipeline.com> wrote:
> Ok, I'm extrapolating (in public too) from the GRW minaitures game but...
>
> They (cards, dice and chips) are used for different elements in the game
> system. Dice are for now decisions, hit miss etc. Cards are for sequencing
> actions and stay on the table throughout a turn. Chips are used for long
Cards aren't just for sequencing - if you play any sort of magician,
you're going to use them, and need your own deck.
Spell effects are decided by poker hands. The better hand you can make
from a draw, the more powerful your spell is.
John
The Philosopher's Stone
Tony Lane <a.g....@anglia.ac.uk> writes
>I have run Deadlands a few times, and I find that the dice and cards system
>works very well. The Poker chips are a bit different, if you don't like the
>idea, then it's easy enough not to use them. I like using the chips for
>bounty(exp) as the players get a real feeling of having received it.
not turned on by it at all. As far as i can see there's no reason for
all of these various props unless you actually want props when you're
designing the system... and that's crap.
mcgin...@parliament.uk
The Philosopher's Stone <Th...@jmccalmontREMOVE.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> They probably do work well but it seems so gimmicky that I'm just
> not turned on by it at all. As far as i can see there's no reason for
> all of these various props unless you actually want props when you're
> designing the system... and that's crap.
I think you are being dogmattical here. There was a move toward ever more
streamlined games where the rules tried not to impose upon the game as far as
possible - and that was a GOOD THING as far as most people were concerned. It
allowed you to concentrate upon the roleplaying. This is an example of someone
going back and saying is there anything we can do to reinforce the genre
within the game??
Pinnacle have obviously decided that when people think of cowboys they also
think of poker, and made the whole poker thing an integral part of the game.
It does reinforce the genre when you are playing. It is a GOOD THING, so don't
just look at the props and think gimmick, extra, detracts, BAD THING. See how
it affects game play, then decide whether its crap or not.
Stephen McGinness
> ~ "There is no Mathematical substitute for Philosophy" ~
> Saul Kripke ~ "Truth and Meaning"
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
The Philosopher's Stone
mcgin...@parliament.uk writes
>I think you are being dogmattical here. There was a move toward ever more
>streamlined games where the rules tried not to impose upon the game as far as
>possible - and that was a GOOD THING as far as most people were concerned. It
>allowed you to concentrate upon the roleplaying. This is an example of someone
>going back and saying is there anything we can do to reinforce the genre
>within the game??
This appears to me to be a straight contradiction... on the one hand
you want minimalist rules to maximise roleplaying on the other you want
"themed" rules. If you're going to theme rules and use three different
determining systems then by definition you've got 3 sets of task
resolution system. That is FACT. "themed" rules such as cards in
Falkenstein and cards AND poker chips in Deadlands are gimmicks... they
aim at the incredibly thin skinned people who think it's cool that you
play with cards and poker chips... basically the type of person who
dresses up to go to themed restaurants.
There are two worlds here, our world where the rules exist and the
tasks are resolved, the game world where the characters live and the
adventures happen. If you want a streamlined system then you want to
concentrate on the latter world, but Deadlands and Falkenstein bring RPG
elements into the real world... these do not enhance the ROLEPLAYING of
the game as it doesn't happen in that world... you are concentrating on
the real world. This is fetishism... these props serve no purpous
whatsoever beyond "looking cool".
Andrew Rilstone
In article <01bd8425$6496c220$659c...@leegarv.erols.com>, Lee Garvin
<lee...@erols.com> writes
>Yes, these things can be very wonderful and weird, but I would contend
>that surrealism is not the same as fantasy. In fantasy, the reality of the
>world is monkeyed with in order to tell a particular story. In surrealism,
>the monkeying with reality IS the story.
Then there's that magical realist thing where wierd stuff happen, but
the wierd stuff isn't the point, and we aren't really asked to believe
in it.
--
Andrew Rilstone and...@aslan.demon.co.uk http://www.aslan.demon.co.uk/
*******************************************************************************
"At last, the 1998 show."
*******************************************************************************
Clipston
I think that John's statement sums it up entirely.
Once upon a time D&D used different dice for probability curves.
Then you had WW with loads of D10.
Then there was Magic. Collectable, popular, it has taken over many RPG
clubs.
Now, with chips dice, and *Collectable* cards, you have an RPG that plays a
bit like Magic.
John Scott wrote in message ...
The Philosopher's Stone
Clipston <cl...@clipston.u-net.com> writes
>Now, with chips dice, and *Collectable* cards, you have an RPG that plays a
>bit like Magic.
M:TG is nothing like a roleplaying gamer and to say that a roleplaying
game is like magic because it uses cards is just as ridiculous.
Lee Garvin
Clipston <cl...@clipston.u-net.com> wrote in article
<6k75hp$alu$1...@news.u-net.com>...
> I think that John's statement sums it up entirely.
>
> Once upon a time D&D used different dice for probability curves.
> Then you had WW with loads of D10.
> Then there was Magic. Collectable, popular, it has taken over many RPG
> clubs.
a
> bit like Magic.
>
cards are all you need. There is a seperate CCG based on Deadlands which is
quite nice, but it isn't connected to the RPG.
Clipston
The Philosopher's Stone wrote in message
<$EWhYtAL...@jmccalmont.demon.co.uk>...
> well financially yes but I don't think that's a fair analogy.
>M:TG is nothing like a roleplaying gamer and to say that a roleplaying
>game is like magic because it uses cards is just as ridiculous.
>
>~ "There is no Mathematical substitute for Philosophy" ~
> Saul Kripke ~ "Truth and Meaning"
OK, but is there a case to say that the element of the card play might
encourage M:TG players to consider Deadlands as an alternative to M:TG ?
And here I am talking about role-players who have been seduced away from
RPGs by M:TG et al. as well as new gamers who have started with M:TG and who
may wish to move into gaming...
mcgin...@parliament.uk
> This appears to me to be a straight contradiction... on the one hand
> you want minimalist rules to maximise roleplaying on the other you want
> "themed" rules.
I didn't contradict myself, I was pointing out two ways of looking at the
thing. I liked Star Wars (I still do) and much of that is due to the fast
simple rule system that allowed the game to flow without impinging too much
into the gaming. I liked Deadlands for a comletely different reason. The rule
system is not simple, they do however make the game distinct.
> If you're going to theme rules and use three different
> determining systems then by definition you've got 3 sets of task
> resolution system. That is FACT.
It is isn't it... :-) Doesn't really feel that way in play though. Lots of it
feel intuitive, and what is diificult to explain in print gets picked up very
quickly in play, unlike Champions (which I also like!!) which people find
difficult to pick up during play.
> "themed" rules such as cards in
> Falkenstein and cards AND poker chips in Deadlands are gimmicks... they
> aim at the incredibly thin skinned people who think it's cool that you
> play with cards and poker chips... basically the type of person who
> dresses up to go to themed restaurants.
Tsk tsk tsk. Your getting personal here. Doesn't help the discussion at all. I
will ignore the fact that you have insulted me and everyone else who like the
game by calling us thin skinned (implying we're shallow??).
> There are two worlds here, our world where the rules exist and the
> tasks are resolved, the game world where the characters live and the
> adventures happen. If you want a streamlined system then you want to
> concentrate on the latter world, but Deadlands and Falkenstein bring RPG
> elements into the real world... these do not enhance the ROLEPLAYING of
> the game as it doesn't happen in that world... you are concentrating on
> the real world. This is fetishism... these props serve no purpous
> whatsoever beyond "looking cool".
(Sorry I'm leaving so much quoted text, just don't want to lose track of what
we're talking about)
I'm quite aware of the separation between the worlds, I just don't feel that
in every case the game has to remain in one of them. The whole point of this
pastime for me is enjoyment. I don't care whether the enjoyment is purely from
the roleplaying experience (which I suppose could be a purist viewpoint)or
whether some of it comes from the "gimmicks" in the game. Playing Star Wars
uses gimmicks too, they just happen to be 'soft', ie: you are in a gimmick
background, with gimmick characters, and ready made gimmick NPCs. The gimmicks
are one of the reason I (and I'm sure lots of other people) enjoy playing the
game. I enjoy the Star Wars universe. In Deadlands the gimmicks are 'hard'
they are cards and poker chips, it enhances my enjoyment of the game and so I
regard them as a good thing.
Sorry if that makes you feel I'm a shallow person. I don't do it in public if
that makes a difference. :-)
Stephen
The Philosopher's Stone
Clipston <cl...@clipston.u-net.com> writes
>OK, but is there a case to say that the element of the card play might
>encourage M:TG players to consider Deadlands as an alternative to M:TG ?
>And here I am talking about role-players who have been seduced away from
>RPGs by M:TG et al. as well as new gamers who have started with M:TG and who
>may wish to move into gaming...
a lot to do with a mind-less addictive card game. I hardly think someone
will be shallow enough to play a game PURELY because it has cards...
look at the first edition of changeling... that had collectible spell
cards and people HATED it... plus it was right in the middle of magic
mania which has since died down.
The Philosopher's Stone
mcgin...@parliament.uk writes
>I liked Deadlands for a comletely different reason. The rule
>system is not simple, they do however make the game distinct.
cards-as-heuristics-for-quick-problem-solving
>It is isn't it... :-) Doesn't really feel that way in play though. Lots of it
>feel intuitive, and what is diificult to explain in print gets picked up very
>quickly in play, unlike Champions (which I also like!!) which people find
>difficult to pick up during play.
ADD is easy to pick up once you're playing, doesn't make it
rules light.. ditto MERP.
>Tsk tsk tsk. Your getting personal here. Doesn't help the discussion at all. I
>will ignore the fact that you have insulted me and everyone else who like the
>game by calling us thin skinned (implying we're shallow??).
not shallow =) just impressed by trifling things. I'm sure that
you have a very rich emotional and intellectual life but that doesn't
stop you from getting all hyper active =)
>I'm quite aware of the separation between the worlds, I just don't feel that
>in every case the game has to remain in one of them.
there's postmodernism and stuff like that a la Over the Edge and
Neurosis (or whatever it's called) but in general they don't work...
mixingmetaphores. for example who atually buys the themed dice that WW
put out for EACH of their games?
> Playing Star Wars
>uses gimmicks too, they just happen to be 'soft', ie: you are in a gimmick
>background, with gimmick characters, and ready made gimmick NPCs.
no that's a gimmick which is in the fantasy world, that's okay as
that's what gaming is all about but what I don't like is gimmicks which
have nothing to do with the actual roleplaying experience.
> In Deadlands the gimmicks are 'hard'
>they are cards and poker chips, it enhances my enjoyment of the game and so I
>regard them as a good thing.
How can they enhance your enjoyment of the game? do you empathise
with your character better because you wear a cowboy hat and play with
cards?
>Sorry if that makes you feel I'm a shallow person. I don't do it in public if
>that makes a difference.
I don't think that you're shallow =) I just value different
things.
Tim Ellis
The Philosopher's Stone <Th...@jmccalmontREMOVE.demon.co.uk> has
previously posted
> How can they enhance your enjoyment of the game? do you empathise
>with your character better because you wear a cowboy hat and play with
>cards?
>
Of course on of the things that White Dwarf (in the good old days(TM))
and the like used to suggest you did to enhance your roleplay experience
was create props, decorate and/or light your room appropriately etc etc
- Earing a cowboy hat and playing poker is just an extension of this. .
.
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Tim Ellis EMail t...@timellis.demon.co.uk |
| A foolish consistancy is the hobgoblin of little minds - R.W. Emerson |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
mcgin...@parliament.uk
The Philosopher's Stone wrote:
> ADD is easy to pick up once you're playing, doesn't make it
> rules light.. ditto MERP.
They are, but the added complexity doesn't add anything to the game, that's
why people started trying to strip away all of the extraneous rules that
didn't do anything for the game. Like I said, I'm all for this sort of thing.
Most often the extra stuff isn't worth having.
> not shallow =) just impressed by trifling things. I'm sure that
> you have a very rich emotional and intellectual life but that doesn't
> stop you from getting all hyper active =)
[rofl] If any of my friends could see that!! :-) I'm not sure they would agree
with the rich emotional and intellectual life (I am from the gutters of
Motherwell after all) and I'm certain they wouldn't agree with the hyper
activity....
> there's postmodernism and stuff like that a la Over the Edge and
> Neurosis (or whatever it's called) but in general they don't work...
> mixing metaphores. for example who atually buys the themed dice that WW
> put out for EACH of their games?
I'm afraid I don't buy any WW stuff at all so I'm at a bit of a loss here. :-)
I'm not trying to say that the roleplaying should be marked by the characters
knowing they are characters in a game, but that anything which helps the
player get into the role, _and the feel of the game_, should be encouraged.
For some people this takes the form of miniatures, lending a visual aspect to
the game that is otherwise lacking.
Just had a thought, is this multimedia roleplaying??
> >Star Wars uses gimmicks too, they just happen to be 'soft',
>
> no that's a gimmick which is in the fantasy world, that's okay as
> that's what gaming is all about but what I don't like is gimmicks which
> have nothing to do with the actual roleplaying experience.
I'd say anything which helps you enjoy the experience is good. It is also a
very good idea to give the fidgety players something to do with their hands
that is at least game related!! :-) My friend spent the time shuffling his
cards that he would have otherwise spent distracting me...
> >they are cards and poker chips, it enhances my enjoyment of the game and so
> >I regard them as a good thing.
>
> How can they enhance your enjoyment of the game? do you empathise
> with your character better because you wear a cowboy hat and play with
> cards?
It enhances my enjoyment of the game because I find them fun! I like throwing
fate chips to characters that do well, there is a feedback mechanism for good
roleplaying that provides immediate gratification and a physical reminder of
that rather than the purely abstract experience that such actions normally
generate. Good practical reasons rather than any 'soft' roleplay enhancement
reasons, although these are present if it aids players to ease into the feel
of the game (like what tim ellis said!).
> I don't think that you're shallow =) I just value different
> things.
Phew! If it got out that people thought I was shallow, my mates would think
that working in London had done strange things to me!! :-)
The Philosopher's Stone
Tim Ellis <t...@timellis.demon.co.uk> writes
>Of course on of the things that White Dwarf (in the good old days(TM))
>and the like used to suggest you did to enhance your roleplay experience
>was create props, decorate and/or light your room appropriately etc etc
>- Earing a cowboy hat and playing poker is just an extension of this. .
going on in the world of the fantasy. Playing the game with cards
doesn't do this at all.
Andrew Turner
Hi! Everyone,
To those of you who forgotten role-playing is an exercise of the mind and
the imagination.
Props are there only to enhance the game but they are not required to play a
good role-playing game.
A well thought out background and story goes a long way to enhance a
role-playing game.
These various props etc are a blatant attempt by the games companies to make
more money. After all that is their one main perpous in life. If anything
some companies are now going a bit too far but it will be them who suffer
with the loss of business.
Andy :-)
Lee Garvin
Andrew Turner wrote in article
> role-playing game.
>
> These various props etc are a blatant attempt by the games companies to
make
> more money. After all that is their one main perpous in life. If anything
> some companies are now going a bit too far but it will be them who suffer
> with the loss of business.
>
Now your just talking to make noise. Pinnacle does not produce or sell
poker chips or dice, and they didn't sell poker cards until a year after
the game was released. It is not an unreasonable addition to the line, and
absolutely not necessary to the game: Deadlands plays just as well with the
deck you buy at the drug store for $1.95.
Now, as far as making money goes, yes, they are in business to make money.
Any one who is in business for any reason other than making money is a
chump. But, unlike a few of the Big Guys (tm), they (Pinnacle) still make
decisions based on creative direction, not profit and loss statements and
bad marketing advice. From a consumer's POV, it is a _good_ thing if the
company makes money, since that allows them to support the game with
continued high quality. Pinnacle has shown that they are very interested in
what their customers think and feel, and they have even made changes to a
few things to better serve.
David Damerell
Andrew Turner <Andrew...@firestar0.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>To those of you who forgotten role-playing is an exercise of the mind and
>the imagination.
This sentence no verb. I always thought roleplaying was an exercise of
the spleen - what a shock to find it exercises the mind!
[Is that it for things we knew already, or is there more?]
>Props are there only to enhance the game but they are not required to play a
>good role-playing game.
[There's more...]
*gasp* Surely not. I always thought it was impossible to play Call of
Cthulhu without my lifesize replica of a shoggoth, shambling zombie mask,
and cuddly Usagi doll.
[Shurely shome mishtake?]
Oh, yeah. Cuddly Nyarlathotep doll. Sorry.
>A well thought out background and story goes a long way to enhance a
>role-playing game.
[New depths of the blatantly obvious!]
My god, what a revelation! All these games I've played where "you're
sitting in a nondescript pub and this guy comes in; he looks like a
minion of the local ruler dude; he buys a drink, drinks it, and buggers
off again", and I never realised that what we needed was a background and
story. My eyes are opened, oh master of roleplaying! Truly, only Elrond
can match your wisdom.
>These various props etc are a blatant attempt by the games companies to make
>more money.
[Something that isn't obvious - shame it's not true...]
Ah, yes. The makers of Deadlands don't sell poker chips at all, they only
recently sold decks of cards, any deck of cards will do just as well -
they're getting a payoff from the manufacturers of poker chips for the
0.000001% increase in their sales, perhaps?
And you know what? Releasing _games_ is a blatant attempt by the games
companies to make more money. I must demand that they stop it at once!
>After all that is their one main perpous in life.
Ouuuuuuch. Ouch. Ouch. Did I mention "ouch"?
[People who watch too much TV know a lot of words they spell the way they
are pronounced. People who read too much know a lot of words until they try
and use them in conversation, and realise they have no idea how to say
them. FYI, 'purpose' is spelled thusly.]
--
David/Kirsty Damerell. dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/ w.sp.lic.#pi<largestprime>.2106
|___| NetHack players of the world unite! You have nothing |___|
| | | to lose but your blessed rustproof +2 iron chains! | | |
Philip Masters
In article: <7zx*iW...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (David Damerell) writes:
> ... I always thought it was impossible to play Call of
> Cthulhu without my lifesize replica of a shoggoth, shambling zombie mask,
> and cuddly Usagi doll.
It wasn't you that bought the cuddly paisley Cthulhu doll I imported a
couple of years ago, then?
--
Phil Masters
* Home Page: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Phil_Masters
* Note: I have kill-filed all "Multipart/Alternative" postings. HTML is
very nice, but not on Usenet.
David Damerell
Philip Masters <Ph...@philm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (David Damerell) writes:
>> ... I always thought it was impossible to play Call of
>>Cthulhu without my lifesize replica of a shoggoth, shambling zombie mask,
>>and cuddly Usagi doll.
[Note for most; Usagi is the central character of the Japanese TV series
'Sailor Moon', a fairly typical 'magical girl' anime. In the (pisspoor)
American dubs she is called 'Serena'.]
>It wasn't you that bought the cuddly paisley Cthulhu doll I imported a
>couple of years ago, then?
It's odd you should ask; I do in fact have a cuddly paisley Cthulhu doll
(named Zoon), but it was bought for me by my SO at WindyCon in Chicago
last year.
--
David/Kirsty Damerell. dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk
It moves between us, for one moment, like opium in your heart, with remedies
from the ancient gods, to heal the morals of our shadows. Devil, come to me,
open up the door, lead me ciahra to the centre of it all...(FotN:Submission)