Is Games Workshop Trying to Reinvent Roleplaying?
Robin Low
An overly dramatic subject heading, but have patience.
One of my memories from back in the early Eighties when I was just
discovering roleplaying is of reading an article explaining how D&D came
about. It talked about wargaming and how gamers became more interested
in skirmish wargaming and treating the models as individuals with names
and personal histories.
I bought a copy of White Dwarf #221 which had an interesting little
'Soapbox' article written by Tuomas Pirrinen. I assume this chap is
employed by Workshop as there was a photo of the chap in a GW Studio T-
shirt and he refers to himself as a games developer. With regards to the
above paragraph, the following sections are taken from his article:
" Lately I've been playing many small games with fixed objectives and
and small forces... In these battles I have named even the lowliest
rank-and-file soldiers in my force, and written background history for
them. This way they become unique individuals with their own
personalities."
He goes on to describe what his "group of stalwart adventurers" have
been up to, before commenting:
"As a games developer, it is my job to explore strange new scenarios and
boldly go where no game has gone before, but there is nothing to stop
you from trying something like this."
I thought it was quite amusing. Games Workshop starts all those years
ago importing D&D before turning into a major wargamimg company, and now
a member of it's staff (I assume) is on the verge of reinventing D&D.
Robin
--
Robin Low
Munroe Morrison
In article <sJO2EDAi...@celephais.demon.co.uk>, Robin Low
<Ro...@celephais.demon.co.uk> writes
What do I do ???
Laugh or shake my head ???
Sad, isn't it!
--
Munroe Morrison
Out Of Blue Comes Green
James Wallis
>
>I bought a copy of White Dwarf #221 which had an interesting little
>'Soapbox' article written by Tuomas Pirrinen.
>I thought it was quite amusing. Games Workshop starts all those years
>ago importing D&D before turning into a major wargamimg company, and now
>a member of it's staff (I assume) is on the verge of reinventing D&D.
Tuomas is an old-school RPGer and plays WFRP, as you might expect. He's
also an extremely cool guy. There are actually quite a lot of old
WFRPers at GW.
--
James Wallis, Director of Hogshead Publishing Ltd (ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
Publishers of WARHAMMER FANTASY ROLEPLAY (wf...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
Warhammer is a registered trademark of Games Workshop PLC, used with permission
Company motto: "Brevior vita est quam pro futumentibus negotium agendo"
David G. Bell
In article <sJO2EDAi...@celephais.demon.co.uk>
Ro...@celephais.demon.co.uk "Robin Low" writes:
>
> An overly dramatic subject heading, but have patience.
>
>
> One of my memories from back in the early Eighties when I was just
> discovering roleplaying is of reading an article explaining how D&D came
> about. It talked about wargaming and how gamers became more interested
> in skirmish wargaming and treating the models as individuals with names
> and personal histories.
>
> I bought a copy of White Dwarf #221 which had an interesting little
> 'Soapbox' article written by Tuomas Pirrinen. I assume this chap is
> employed by Workshop as there was a photo of the chap in a GW Studio T-
> shirt and he refers to himself as a games developer. With regards to the
> above paragraph, the following sections are taken from his article:
>
> " Lately I've been playing many small games with fixed objectives and
> and small forces... In these battles I have named even the lowliest
> rank-and-file soldiers in my force, and written background history for
> them. This way they become unique individuals with their own
> personalities."
>
> He goes on to describe what his "group of stalwart adventurers" have
> been up to, before commenting:
>
> "As a games developer, it is my job to explore strange new scenarios and
> boldly go where no game has gone before, but there is nothing to stop
> you from trying something like this."
>
>
> I thought it was quite amusing. Games Workshop starts all those years
> ago importing D&D before turning into a major wargamimg company, and now
> a member of it's staff (I assume) is on the verge of reinventing D&D.
And from before D&D too. I've a feeling, though I can't check, that
something very similar was written by H G Wells in 'Little Wars'. It's
certainly a concept straight out of 'Skirmish Wargames' by Donald
Featherstone, which was around in the UK before D&D arrived.
Oh, and he teals lines from Gene Roddenberry too.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
James Kemp
But the Donald Featherstone influence was credited. At least the earlier
editions of Warhammer were dedicated too him. (Not sure about the new
editions, I still think of Warhammer as 3 softbound books in a box)
James
Robin Low
In article <WFwyl1A3...@hogshead.demon.co.uk>, James Wallis
<Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> writes
>>'Soapbox' article written by Tuomas Pirrinen.
>>I thought it was quite amusing. Games Workshop starts all those years
>>ago importing D&D before turning into a major wargamimg company, and now
>>a member of it's staff (I assume) is on the verge of reinventing D&D.
>
>also an extremely cool guy. There are actually quite a lot of old
>WFRPers at GW.
>
Fair enough. I hope my original post didn't sound overly sarcastic - it
certainly wasn't meant to be hostile towards the guy. Apart from being
amused, I also felt vaguely nostalgic and I did like the idea that the
article might actually encourage a few Warhammer players to slip into
roleplaying. Do you think there's any chance of getting the odd WFRP
article into White Dwarf? Perhaps a small bi-monthly slot. Maybe
something WFRP related could be slipped into Inferno! (incidentally, I
quite liked your story in issue 5). Mind you, I expect Hogshead has
already tried to persuade them on that score.
Going off my own thread now, does anybody know what happened to the
artist Tony Ackland? I like his work and his art gave the Warhammer
world much of its character and atmosphere. While I'm on the subject, is
it just me or has John Blanche taken something of a backseat in recent
years? I realise he still does stuff for the army and codex books, but
he rarely does covers these days. There are examples, but his work is
nowhere near as prominent as in ye gode olde dayes.
regards,
Robin
--
Robin Low
Richard Hale
>>In article <sJO2EDAi...@celephais.demon.co.uk>, Robin Low
>><Ro...@celephais.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Going off my own thread now, does anybody know what happened to the
>artist Tony Ackland?
>it just me or has John Blanche taken something of a backseat in recent
>years?
I wish that he'd taken more of a backseat from the beginning! The whole
overblown GW Chaos spiky bit thing was mostly his doing wasn't it? (With
appropriate credits to Mr Ansell.)
James Wallis
In article <mGgEnEAl...@celephais.demon.co.uk>, Robin Low
<Ro...@celephais.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Fair enough. I hope my original post didn't sound overly sarcastic - it
>certainly wasn't meant to be hostile towards the guy. Apart from being
>amused, I also felt vaguely nostalgic and I did like the idea that the
>article might actually encourage a few Warhammer players to slip into
>roleplaying. Do you think there's any chance of getting the odd WFRP
>article into White Dwarf? Perhaps a small bi-monthly slot.
Oh strewth, I wish. They've mentioned the existence of the WFRP line a
couple of times since it was re-launched, but the chances of getting an
article for the game in WD is essentially zero. The magazine doesn't
even sell ad space any more... and I'd pay a considerable amount of
money for one.
There have been vague rumours from unofficial sources about getting WFRP
material into the Citadel Journal, but I'm sceptical.
>Maybe
>something WFRP related could be slipped into Inferno!
I regard INFERNO (GW's Warhammer- and WH40K-based fiction magazine, for
those not in the know) as partially a WFRP magazine anyway, since it
deals with the world's background rather than the minutiae of the
battles fought there. And several WFRP creators have leaped on the
INFERNO bandwagon and are busily developing fiction for it. However,
again, the chance of them actually plugging WFRP or any other non-GW
game system in there is essentially non-existent.
>(incidentally, I
>quite liked your story in issue 5).
Thanks. There's a sequel in the works.
>Mind you, I expect Hogshead has
>already tried to persuade them on that score.
Oh yes.
>Going off my own thread now, does anybody know what happened to the
>artist Tony Ackland? I like his work and his art gave the Warhammer
>world much of its character and atmosphere.
I believe that he went off to design figures for a different company
(Target, possibly? I'm not sure). I have to admit that I have a softer
spot for Martin McKenna and Russ Nicholson, who made most of The Enemy
Within what it is: Martin's told me he feels he's moved beyond the
Warhammer world these days (and seeing the gorgeous work he's produced
for WotC and Palladium, I can see what he means -- his style is very
different today) but Russ is more than happy to draw new Warhammer
material and for me it's a joy to be able to print it.
And if anybody knows the whereabouts of Wil Rees, who illustrated
"Shadows Over Bogenhafen"... man, I'd love to be able to commission some
new work from him.
James Wallis
In article <893368...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>, David G. Bell
<db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>And from before D&D too. I've a feeling, though I can't check, that
>something very similar was written by H G Wells in 'Little Wars'. It's
>certainly a concept straight out of 'Skirmish Wargames' by Donald
>Featherstone, which was around in the UK before D&D arrived.
I don't think there's anything in "Little Wars" about creating
background for the soldiers -- they're basically treated as lumps of
lead, although there is a splendid battle report written by a "general".
However, it's not far off the central idea of Wells's "Floor Games",
which predates "Little Wars" by a year or two, and which could be said
to prefigure RPGs by... ooh, about sixty years or so.
Robin Low
In article <8uYIvTAr...@hogshead.demon.co.uk>, James Wallis
<Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> writes
>>Going off my own thread now, does anybody know what happened to the
>>artist Tony Ackland? I like his work and his art gave the Warhammer
>>world much of its character and atmosphere.
>
>I believe that he went off to design figures for a different company
>(Target, possibly? I'm not sure). I have to admit that I have a softer
>spot for Martin McKenna and Russ Nicholson, who made most of The Enemy
>Within what it is: Martin's told me he feels he's moved beyond the
>Warhammer world these days (and seeing the gorgeous work he's produced
>for WotC and Palladium, I can see what he means -- his style is very
>different today) but Russ is more than happy to draw new Warhammer
>material and for me it's a joy to be able to print it.
Martin McKenna and Russ Nicholson are, of course, both artistic gods.
McKenna's art for 'Green and Pleasant Land' and 'Death on the Reik' is
still wonderful to look at. I like his more recent stuff enough to
consider buying some Palladium products, especially when Dave Carson's
made a contribution as well. However, I do feel McKenna's older style
has considerably more atmosphere - he was a man destined to draw cob-
webbed haunted houses and families of madmen. If you can entice him back
to illustrate the odd WFRP supplement I'd be quite pleased, style-change
or not.
I've been a fan of Russ Nicholson since his Fighting Fantasy days -
gamebooks are how I game into the hobby, so there's a pretty hefty whack
of nostaglia when I look at his art. I particularly like the fact that
even though his style has become more sophisticated over the years, he
hasn't lost that unique look. Does anyone know if he's ever done any
work in colour? I can't think of a single example.
regards
Robin
--
Robin Low
James Wallis
In article <ns8ktDAW...@celephais.demon.co.uk>, Robin Low
<Ro...@celephais.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Martin McKenna and Russ Nicholson are, of course, both artistic gods.
>McKenna's art for 'Green and Pleasant Land' and 'Death on the Reik' is
>still wonderful to look at. I like his more recent stuff enough to
>consider buying some Palladium products, especially when Dave Carson's
>made a contribution as well. However, I do feel McKenna's older style
>has considerably more atmosphere - he was a man destined to draw cob-
>webbed haunted houses and families of madmen. If you can entice him back
>to illustrate the odd WFRP supplement I'd be quite pleased, style-change
>or not.
I'd really love to be able to use Martin again. The sticking points,
WFRP-wise, are that his style has changed; GW require that the copyright
of all artwork in WFRP supplements becomes theirs, which I believe is
something Martin has a problem with; and I suspect that he, like several
ex-GW artists, feels he was a little ill-treated by the company, and
would rather not associate himself with them again, even via a proxy
company like Hogshead. Which is a crying shame, but not something I can
do very much about.
>I've been a fan of Russ Nicholson since his Fighting Fantasy days -
>gamebooks are how I game into the hobby, so there's a pretty hefty whack
>of nostaglia when I look at his art. I particularly like the fact that
>even though his style has become more sophisticated over the years, he
>hasn't lost that unique look. Does anyone know if he's ever done any
>work in colour? I can't think of a single example.
The only colour piece of Russ's that I know of was a full-page
illustration of the nasty from "Night of Blood" in WD87. It's a little
disappointing. I believe that Russ is one of those artists whose style
was meant to appear in black-and-white.
Ashley Southcott
Robin Low wrote:
>Do you think there's any chance of getting the odd WFRP
>something WFRP related could be slipped into Inferno!
We-ll... The best we could hope for at the moment are adventurer-party stories
in Inferno or the Journal, or (better still, in my opinion) some Warhammer-world
stuff of direct relevance to WFRP. The days of seeing WFRP scenarios or articles
in directly-published GW products are over - else why farm out the license to
Hogshead?
The other argument GW could use as a defence to publishing roleplaying material
- not a bad one, either - is that a lot of good stuff for popular games,
including WFRP, comes from diehard gamers, and that GW's commercial interests
should lie elsewhere on the basis that games worthy of support will be supoorted
by gamers without the need for commercial input. Witness 'Warpstone' or (for
SLA) 'The Big Picture'.
Cheers, Ashley (ah...@aber.ac.uk)
Mike Nudd
In article <NGyuECAC...@hogshead.demon.co.uk>, James Wallis
<Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <ns8ktDAW...@celephais.demon.co.uk>, Robin Low
><Ro...@celephais.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>Martin McKenna and Russ Nicholson are, of course, both artistic gods.
>>McKenna's art for 'Green and Pleasant Land' and 'Death on the Reik' is
>>still wonderful to look at. I like his more recent stuff enough to
>>consider buying some Palladium products, especially when Dave Carson's
>>made a contribution as well. However, I do feel McKenna's older style
>>has considerably more atmosphere - he was a man destined to draw cob-
>>webbed haunted houses and families of madmen. If you can entice him back
>>to illustrate the odd WFRP supplement I'd be quite pleased, style-change
>>or not.
>
>I'd really love to be able to use Martin again. The sticking points,
>WFRP-wise, are that his style has changed; GW require that the copyright
>of all artwork in WFRP supplements becomes theirs, which I believe is
>something Martin has a problem with
I think a lot of artists would have such a problem with GW's control-
freak attitude to gaming.
>; and I suspect that he, like several
>ex-GW artists, feels he was a little ill-treated by the company
Who doesn't?
>, and
>would rather not associate himself with them again, even via a proxy
>company like Hogshead. Which is a crying shame, but not something I can
>do very much about.
>
>>I've been a fan of Russ Nicholson since his Fighting Fantasy days -
>>gamebooks are how I game into the hobby, so there's a pretty hefty whack
>>of nostaglia when I look at his art. I particularly like the fact that
>>even though his style has become more sophisticated over the years, he
>>hasn't lost that unique look. Does anyone know if he's ever done any
>>work in colour? I can't think of a single example.
>
>The only colour piece of Russ's that I know of was a full-page
>illustration of the nasty from "Night of Blood" in WD87. It's a little
>disappointing. I believe that Russ is one of those artists whose style
>was meant to appear in black-and-white.
>
Erm,
Just out of curiosity, but what the hell happened to all the guys that
used to work for GW? Did they just give up or what?
The names Rick Priestly, Brian Ansell and Jervis Johnson spring to mind
- I certainly haven't heard their names bandied aruond for a while. Do
they still work there, keeping a low profile, or have they moved on to
brighter and better things?
Come to think of it. Does anyone know what happened to Nick Lund of
Fantasy Warriors fame? The game was tons better than Warhammer. Has
anyone thought of resurrecting it?
--
teacosy
'I seem to having tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle' - Arthur Dent from
Douglas Adam's Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
<currently reading ..... 'A Test of Time' by David Rohl>
Marcus L. Rowland
In article <$3hBUFAs...@zeroth.demon.co.uk>, Mike Nudd
<tea...@zeroth.demon.co.uk> writes
>Brian Ansell
AFAIK he's running a figure company, on Jersey I think, selling cowboys
and other historicals. And he used to be MD of Games Workshop, not work
for them. In his day he made some very odd decisions, like letting GW's
licence to print games based on 2000AD lapse with a load of Judge Dredd
stuff and a Rogue Trooper game in the pipeline. OTOH he made loads of
money, so he must have been doing something right.
--
Marcus L. Rowland
http://www.ffutures.demon.co.uk/
"We are all victims of this slime. They... ...fill our mailboxes with gibberish
that would get them indicted if people had time to press charges"
[Hunter S. Thompson predicts junk e-mail, 1985 (from Generation of Swine)]
James Wallis
>In article <NGyuECAC...@hogshead.demon.co.uk>, James Wallis
><Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> writes
>>ex-GW artists, feels he was a little ill-treated by the company
>
>Who doesn't?
Well, Russ Nicholson, for one. Pete Knifton. Ralph Horsley. All the
freelance illustrators who are working for INFERNO and the Warhammer
comic. Probably many more I don't know about.
>Just out of curiosity, but what the hell happened to all the guys that
>used to work for GW? Did they just give up or what?
>The names Rick Priestly, Brian Ansell and Jervis Johnson spring to mind
>- I certainly haven't heard their names bandied aruond for a while. Do
>they still work there, keeping a low profile, or have they moved on to
>brighter and better things?
Rick is still at GW, with some very senior job title that momentarily
escapes me (I have flu. Sue me.) Jerv is likewise still there, still
involved in game design. Both of them get their mugshots and articles
into White Dwarf on a regular basis, and are acknowledged on the credits
page of almost every GW product, so I don't think either of them can be
said to be "keeping a low profile".
Bryan Ansell, sold up his interest in GW in the early 1990s and moved to
the Channel Islands, mostly for health reasons. I'm told that he's
involved with at least one historical miniatures company these days.
>Come to think of it. Does anyone know what happened to Nick Lund of
>Fantasy Warriors fame? The game was tons better than Warhammer. Has
>anyone thought of resurrecting it?
I came across a lone copy of it in a Cambridge bookshop last month,
priced at £1. Judging by its batterment, it seemed to have been there
for several years.
David G. Bell
In article <WPO4GRAw...@hogshead.demon.co.uk>
Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk "James Wallis" writes:
> Bryan Ansell, sold up his interest in GW in the early 1990s and moved to
> the Channel Islands, mostly for health reasons. I'm told that he's
> involved with at least one historical miniatures company these days.
The company appeared to start as several Citadel/GW figure designers
producing _historical_ figures (Wargames Foundry) Then there was a
'Jersey Foundry' and now it seems to be just 'Foundry'. You're almost
certainly right that more than one company was involved in the sequence,
but more because Jersey company law is different -- it couldn't just do
the equivalent of moving from London to Nottingham.
Some old Citadel/GW lines -- the more historical stuff -- is now
produced by Foundry, and they have a fairly large stand at major
wargames shows, and regular adverts in the wargaming magazines.
Robin Low
In article <VyTEBNAK...@ffutures.demon.co.uk>, "Marcus L. Rowland"
<mrow...@ffutures.demon.co.uk> writes
>>Brian Ansell
>
>AFAIK he's running a figure company, on Jersey I think, selling cowboys
>and other historicals. And he used to be MD of Games Workshop, not work
>for them. In his day he made some very odd decisions, like letting GW's
>licence to print games based on 2000AD lapse with a load of Judge Dredd
>stuff and a Rogue Trooper game in the pipeline. OTOH he made loads of
>money, so he must have been doing something right.
This reminded me of those Stontium Dog figures Citadel produced and a
mention years ago in White Dwarf of a proposed Strontium Dog rpg. Does
anyone know if any work was ever undertaken on the latter?
James Wallis
In article <ocHnRdA8$NR1...@celephais.demon.co.uk>, Robin Low
<Ro...@celephais.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>This reminded me of those Stontium Dog figures Citadel produced and a
>mention years ago in White Dwarf of a proposed Strontium Dog rpg. Does
>anyone know if any work was ever undertaken on the latter?
Yes, it was -- by Steve... Steve... one of Ben Goodale's friends called
Steve. (I still have flu). This would have been circa 1986-7-8, unless
my sense of time is completely screwed as well.
p2-j...@wpg.uwe.ac.uk
In article <893695...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>,
db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk wrote:
> The company appeared to start as several Citadel/GW figure designers
> producing _historical_ figures (Wargames Foundry)
>
> Some old Citadel/GW lines -- the more historical stuff -- is now
> produced by Foundry, and they have a fairly large stand at major
> wargames shows, and regular adverts in the wargaming magazines.
>
>
If anyone's interested, I found out yesterday that their address is :
The Foundary Ltd.
Hubert's Lane
Off Doyle Road
St. Peter Port
Guernsey
Channel Islands
GB
GY1 1RG
Tel 01481 714241
They produce a Samurai range (ex Games Workshop Figures) £5.50/$10 for 6
figures. THere are 5 packs in total, Samurai Lords, Ashigura, etc. Designer:
Aly Morrison.
SOme of their other medieval ranges (Baron's War, 100 Years War) also have the
odd Citadel figure in them but it seemed that he didn't know which ones. :-(
Figures are usually 70p each. There is a page on the internet:
http://www.icenter.net/~gisby/index.htm
Good Luck
Pete
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Storm bringer
Games workshop are in business for one reason, money. They don`t care what
it takes to make money, little kids are going to pay their outragus prices
for there minitures, an example is Chaos terminater costs £4.00 and Abbadon
costs £8.00, both models weigh the same, but one is a special character.
This brings me to my second point GW has now started to target younger
players, What do there parents (who are paying for there stuff) think when
they say they need £50 for a basic game, £20 for the magic supplerment, £15
for the army book and about £100 for a 2000 pts army, that comes to £195 to
start playing a GW game. To start playing say Vampire all the kid realy
needs is the base book - £20
Games Workshop are not trying to reinvent role playing, they are trying to
kill it.
--
Leo
"Prejudice is so stupid. There are so many reasons to hate people on an
individual basis."
"I have something to say... It's better to burn out, than to fade away!" -
Kurgan
Robin Low
In article <01bd72c8$2159c980$LocalHost@foeyplfq>, Storm bringer <leo-
v...@lineone.net> writes
>Games Workshop are not trying to reinvent role playing, they are trying to
>kill it.
>
Whilst there is much to be said for the absurd prices GW charges I think
this comment is not merely untrue, but silly as well.
GW's market is not the roleplaying market. It could be argued that they
are doing damage to the wargaming industry, but GW does absolutely no
damage to the roleplaying industry at all.
Certainly many youngsters are taking up GW's games and this might be
instead of roleplaying, but they are hardly forced to do it. GW prices
certainly aren't undercutting the prices of roleplaying games and
tempting folk in that way.
Just look at all the games which are being published these days and the
endless supplements - there are a hell of a lot more now that GW *isn't*
supporting the rpg industry.
And if GW really wanted to kill roleplaying, they would hardly have
licenced WFRP to Hogshead.
Marc Gascoigne
> This reminded me of those Stontium Dog figures Citadel produced and a
> mention years ago in White Dwarf of a proposed Strontium Dog rpg. Does
> anyone know if any work was ever undertaken on the latter?
There was a first draft produced by a freelance team based in London
around 1987/8, but if I remember rightly it needed loads of work. I can't
imagine it's in any state for public viewing after all these years, even
if one could track down the authors.
Later,
marc gascoigne
Andrew Rilstone
Can you name me a single business which doesn't exist to make money?
Clue's in the question.
--
Andrew Rilstone and...@aslan.demon.co.uk http://www.aslan.demon.co.uk/
*******************************************************************************
"At last, the 1998 show."
*******************************************************************************
Martin Smith
marco@**overload.demon.co.uk (Marc Gascoigne) wrote:
The game was originally designed by a group of my friends, with whom I
am still playing on Tuesdays. The original draft wasn't liked by Games
Workshop because it didn't fit in with their Warhammer rules, that's
as much as I know about the actual system.
The designers were keen fans of Strontium Dog.
--
Martin.
+------------------------------+-----------------------------+
| Martin Smith. | |
| mar...@shambala.demon.co.uk | "Inconceivable!" |
+------------------------------+-----------------------------+
Steve Ince
"Storm bringer" <le...@lineone.net> wrote:
>players, What do there parents (who are paying for there stuff) think when
>they say they need £50 for a basic game, £20 for the magic supplerment, £15
>for the army book and about £100 for a 2000 pts army, that comes to £195 to
>start playing a GW game. To start playing say Vampire all the kid realy
>needs is the base book - £20
As a parent of two youngish boys I try to give them their own choices.
They were both taken in by the well-painted models in the window of
the GW shop. They saved their pocket money up (I always make a point
of not dipping into my pocket just because they want something) and
bought the boxed set of 40K. And for £10 cheaper at Toys R Us, too.
This was after I tried to encourage them to go for Warhammer Quest as
it was closer to roleplaying, but no, they wanted 40K. In the year
since then, however, they also got into Warhammer Quest and through
that into better roleplaying so that we now play Star Wars RPG
together and they like the ideas of creating their own adventures and
playing the part of GM.
The upshot is, that they made their own choices and spent money they
would have had anyway.
>Games Workshop are not trying to reinvent role playing, they are trying to
>kill it.
I think you should be more positive. While Games Workshop exists,
imaginitive games will be in people's minds. The kids who get drawn
into 40K or Fantasy Battle may want something more to satisfy their
increasing imagination and look at roleplaying as a way of doing this.
Steve
Absolutely Barking Stars
On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:13:43 +0100, Andrew Rilstone
<and...@aslan.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <01bd72c8$2159c980$LocalHost@foeyplfq>, Storm bringer <leo-
>v...@lineone.net> writes
>>Games workshop are in business for one reason, money.
>Can you name me a single business which doesn't exist to make money?
>Clue's in the question.
That's a little unfair Andrew. We all know what he said but we also
all know what he *means*. The age of GW's target customers and the
degree to which they overcharge their customers is, to me, verging on
the morally repugnant. And while the point of a business is to make
money, not all businesses act in so rapacious a fashion. I also wonder
how many parents / financially astute kids have looked at (say) a 20
quid dreadnought or speeder bike or something, thought 'Sod that for
a game of soldiers' and have been lost to the game hobby altogether.
TTFN
Jon
Matthew Hambley
Andrew Rilstone (and...@aslan.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <01bd72c8$2159c980$LocalHost@foeyplfq>, Storm bringer <leo-
: v...@lineone.net> writes
: >Games workshop are in business for one reason, money.
: Can you name me a single business which doesn't exist to make money?
: Clue's in the question.
Of course all companies are in business to make money. However, some people
see business as a two way process, the company provides a product, the
purchasor pays for it. Others see it as a one way process, the purchasor
pays for whatever they are given. Unfortunately the general public seems
quite happy to enter into this sort of business relationship.
--
(\/)atthew Hambley ---------------------\
term : cee...@cee.hw.ac.uk \ "What's a network?"
holiday : mham...@arcade.demon.co.uk \ B.Gates, early '80s
web : http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~ceemah/ \----------------------------------
David Damerell
Andrew Rilstone <and...@aslan.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Storm bringer <le...@lineone.net> writes
>>Games workshop are in business for one reason, money.
>Can you name me a single business which doesn't exist to make money?
Any 'fair trade' business. Next?
--
David/Kirsty 'Gotterdammerung' Damerell. dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk
CUWoCS President. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/ Hail Eris!
|___| That is not dead which can eternal lie, Vote Cthulhu: why make do
| | | And with strange aeons even death may die. with the lesser evil?
Robin Low
In article <3546da81...@news.mcc.ac.uk>, Absolutely Barking Stars
<J...@no-bolton.spam-ac.here-uk> writes
>On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:13:43 +0100, Andrew Rilstone
><and...@aslan.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>In article <01bd72c8$2159c980$LocalHost@foeyplfq>, Storm bringer <leo-
>>v...@lineone.net> writes
>>>Games workshop are in business for one reason, money.
>>Can you name me a single business which doesn't exist to make money?
>>Clue's in the question.
>>Andrew Rilstone
>That's a little unfair Andrew. We all know what he said but we also
>all know what he *means*. The age of GW's target customers and the
>degree to which they overcharge their customers is, to me, verging on
>the morally repugnant.
Sure they overcharge, but the point is they don't do it at gunpoint.
People, even youngsters, have choices.
> And while the point of a business is to make
>money, not all businesses act in so rapacious a fashion. I also wonder
>how many parents / financially astute kids have looked at (say) a 20
>quid dreadnought or speeder bike or something, thought 'Sod that for
>a game of soldiers' and have been lost to the game hobby altogether.
I doubt it works like that. When I was in my early teens I was faced
with all these lovely shiny metal figures produced by Citadel. But even
then when they were cheaper I realised that they were a potential money
pit and they weren't for me.
What puts kids off the gaming (and I'm assuming you mean roleplaying) is
that it's about imagination and it's a tricky concept to explain. This
isn't anything to do with 'kids today', just the nature of the hobby.
Regards
Robin
--
Robin Low
Andrew Mortimore
Hasn't the "GW - Good or Bad" debate been done to death already.
GW made the decision to focus on their wargame system and miniatures. So
they may be overpriced (by a huge margin) but people enjoy the games and
are prepared to pay the price so fair play to them.
Personally I mourn the passing of the old GW and White Dwarf like the
old git I am, but appreciate why they have made the commercial decisions
they have. Games like "Kings and Things", "Golden Heroes" and the old WD
hold a special place for me while the only GW 'miniature' game I ever
really got into was Blood Bowl which was fairly stand-alone (which may
explain why GW never developed it, just kept re-issuing it)
--
Andrew Mortimore
antony johnston
Robin Low <Ro...@celephais.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> This reminded me of those Stontium Dog figures Citadel produced and a
> mention years ago in White Dwarf of a proposed Strontium Dog rpg. Does
> anyone know if any work was ever undertaken on the latter?
I spent so long waiting for it I ended up writing my own. and two
boardgames, based on "the killing" and "outlaw". boy, I wish I had that
much spare time these days =!>
--
antony johnston
http://www.mostlyblack.demon.co.uk/
PS: the man in the orange shirt is not really here.
antony johnston
Steve Ince <ste...@revolution.co.uk.no_spam> wrote:
> As a parent of two youngish boys I try to give them their own choices.
[...]
> since then, however, they also got into Warhammer Quest and through
> that into better roleplaying so that we now play Star Wars RPG
> together
sorry, but I had to comment on this...it blows my mind. being
[deliberately] childless myself, I have to wonder, is this *common*? not
that I disapprove -- quite the opposite. I just can't imagine how it
must feel!
ed
The noble Andrew Mortimore <And...@morte.demon.co.uk> spake on the day
of Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:18:40 +0100:
Always worth remembering that Wargaming figures are cheaper, especially
for RQ players, when you get a Hoplite in packs of three for
poor - wearing leather
comfortable - wearing bronze
Rune level - wearing Gold or Iron as appropriate
ed
--
edh...@equus.demon.co.uk _//// http://www.equus.demon.co.uk/
o_/o /// For devilbunnies, Diplomacy, RPGS,
<*> __\ ///__ Conspiring Rodents and other stuff!
Philip Masters
In article: <l9c*mj...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
> >Can you name me a single business which doesn't exist to make money?
>
On the contrary; Fair Trade businesses are probably, if anything, *more*
concerned with making money than many. It's just that their ethos is to
make sure that as much of the money as possible goes to the people who need
it most.
Of course, there are *charities* with slightly different emphases.
Charities, however, are not businesses. There are also businesses who don't
behave like a cross between a Charles Dickens villain and an MBA textbook.
And some who do...
--
Phil Masters
* Home Page: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Phil_Masters
* Note: I have kill-filed all "Multipart/Alternative" postings. HTML is
very nice, but not on Usenet.
Steve Ince
ant...@mostlyblack.baphomet.demon.co.uk (antony johnston) wrote:
>Steve Ince <ste...@revolution.co.uk.no_spam> wrote:
>> As a parent of two youngish boys I try to give them their own choices.
>[...]
>> since then, however, they also got into Warhammer Quest and through
>> that into better roleplaying so that we now play Star Wars RPG
>> together
>sorry, but I had to comment on this...it blows my mind. being
>[deliberately] childless myself, I have to wonder, is this *common*? not
>that I disapprove -- quite the opposite. I just can't imagine how it
>must feel!
Yes, having children is common.
Playing Star Wars is quite common, I believe.
People enjoying playing games with their children might be less
common.
Sorry, what were you actually saying? :)
Steve
antony johnston
Steve Ince <ste...@revolution.co.uk.no_spam> wrote:
> Yes, having children is common.
har de har har =!>
James Kemp
Steve Ince wrote:
>
> ant...@mostlyblack.baphomet.demon.co.uk (antony johnston) wrote:
>
> >Steve Ince <ste...@revolution.co.uk.no_spam> wrote:
>
> >> As a parent of two youngish boys I try to give them their own choices.
> >[...]
> >> since then, however, they also got into Warhammer Quest and through
> >> that into better roleplaying so that we now play Star Wars RPG
> >> together
>
> >sorry, but I had to comment on this...it blows my mind. being
> >[deliberately] childless myself, I have to wonder, is this *common*? not
> >that I disapprove -- quite the opposite. I just can't imagine how it
> >must feel!
>
>
>
> People enjoying playing games with their children might be less
> common.
>
> Sorry, what were you actually saying? :)
>
> Steve
Well on the flipside, I remember playing Paranoia (2nd ed) with
my Dad quite alot when I was a kid. He loved it.
IIRC he introduced it too his workmates and last I heard the once
a month poker night had become a once a fortnight D&D dungeon crawl.
They also played Talisman for money which I always found weird and,
if I was honest, a little sinister (pound a life I think they played).
James
John Upstone
On Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:42:32 +0100,
ant...@mostlyblack.baphomet.demon.co.uk (antony johnston) wrote:
> > As a parent of two youngish boys I try to give them their own choices.
> [...]
> > since then, however, they also got into Warhammer Quest and through
> > that into better roleplaying so that we now play Star Wars RPG
> > together
>
> sorry, but I had to comment on this...it blows my mind. being
> [deliberately] childless myself, I have to wonder, is this *common*? not
> that I disapprove -- quite the opposite. I just can't imagine how it
> must feel!
Nearly 20 years ago, while a bunch of us were skiving PE, a friend at
school ran a barroom brawl session for Boot Hill, a wild west RPG. I
thought it was fun, and talked my dad into taking me to Games Day 79.
He patiently wandered around with me, taking an active interest, and we
bought the Middle Earth wargame and the old blue book Basic D&D. I DMed
the first game of D&D I ever played, with dad and one of my school friends
as players. He played in my games for several years thereafter, and always
encouraged me in it.
As an interesting footnote to this tale, I should add that my parents were
Mormons, and my dad was a lay preacher at our local church. The Mormons
aren't known for their relaxed ideas on these kind of things, but he never
once thought he was encouraging into devil worship, and even encouraged
some of the other local church-goers to play.
John
--
\O/ John Upstone * ju...@cix.co.uk * jo...@shikasta.demon.co.uk
|_ http://www.shikasta.demon.co.uk/john/umr/ * ICQ: 9709591
(_)\_ Dial up, Log in, Chill out * Peace, Love, Unity, Respect
....................................................................
"If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of
yourself. What isn't part of ourselves doesn't disturb us."
- Herman Hesse
antony johnston
John Upstone <jo...@shikasta.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> As an interesting footnote to this tale, I should add that my parents were
> Mormons
[...]
> but he never once thought he was encouraging into devil worship, and even
> encouraged some of the other local church-goers to play.
ooh, my cockles feel all warmed. seriously, that's ace. my parents
didn't take it seriously until I started making some money out of
it...=!>
Joop
First of all I'd just like to say that Games Workshop have very little to
do with role-playing these days if nothing at all, and this has been the
case for some years, all they churn out now is table top stuff. Second I'm
amazed that you've only just noticed this.
So just what is the point your trying to make?
Reinventing Role-playing?
Just one more thing, I find the obsession with White Wolf slightly
irritating, As there are far better systems out there, and that every Games
company is guilty of commercialism,
Since I started Role-playing I have seen prices rise and rise. So Buyer
Beware.
Dr.Paradox,.
Robin Low
In article <01bd753f$6e413ac0$d5557ec2@cloud9>, Joop
<joo...@hotmail.com> writes
>First of all I'd just like to say that Games Workshop have very little to
>do with role-playing these days if nothing at all, and this has been the
>case for some years, all they churn out now is table top stuff. Second I'm
>amazed that you've only just noticed this.
>So just what is the point your trying to make?
>Reinventing Role-playing?
I suggest you try to find the original post where things will become
clearer.
>Just one more thing, I find the obsession with White Wolf slightly
>irritating, As there are far better systems out there, and that every Games
>company is guilty of commercialism,
>Since I started Role-playing I have seen prices rise and rise. So Buyer
>Beware.
One of the most interesting paragraphs I've ever seen.
regards
Robin
--
"All it takes is one person to do something stupid and all the rest are sure to
join in."
- Bob's First Law (Bob Wezzel, the obscure 21st century 'people's' philosopher)
Jane Williams
On Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:27:40 GMT, edh...@equus.demon.co.uk (ed) wrote:
>Always worth remembering that Wargaming figures are cheaper, especially
>for RQ players, when you get a Hoplite in packs of three for
>
> poor - wearing leather
> comfortable - wearing bronze
> Rune level - wearing Gold or Iron as appropriate
Which is an excellent point, as long as you only want male figures :(
ed
The noble ja...@nospam.williams.nildram.co.uk (Jane Williams) spake on
the day of Fri, 01 May 1998 21:23:07 GMT:
Or are unwilling to spend some time with some milliput and a craft
knife, wherein some conversion work could be done.
David G. Bell
In article <354f082...@news.demon.co.uk>
edh...@equus.demon.co.uk "ed" writes:
> The noble ja...@nospam.williams.nildram.co.uk (Jane Williams) spake on
> the day of Fri, 01 May 1998 21:23:07 GMT:
>
> >On Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:27:40 GMT, edh...@equus.demon.co.uk (ed) wrote:
> >
> >>Always worth remembering that Wargaming figures are cheaper, especially
> >>for RQ players, when you get a Hoplite in packs of three for
> >>
> >> poor - wearing leather
> >> comfortable - wearing bronze
> >> Rune level - wearing Gold or Iron as appropriate
> >
> >Which is an excellent point, as long as you only want male figures :(
>
> Or are unwilling to spend some time with some milliput and a craft
> knife, wherein some conversion work could be done.
In my experience, the various young ladies I know who I have seen
wearing armour don't look so different to men, and yet I wouldn't
consider them flat-chested. Hair-style might be different (especially
if you want matching armoured and un-armoured figures) but it's the book
covers that exaggerate the differences, and show armour that has been
engineered by Playtex, and sponsored by the silicone manufacturers'
association.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
Tom Zunder
>
>Which is an excellent point, as long as you only want male figures :(
I think QT do modular miniatures and they do some Amazonian bodies.
Modular as in you mix bodies, arms and heads yourself, a really good
way to build fantasy figures.
---
Tom Zunder
http://www.io.com/zunder
Juppy
> > but he never once thought he was encouraging into devil worship, and
> > even encouraged some of the other local church-goers to play.
>
> ooh, my cockles feel all warmed. seriously, that's ace. my parents
> didn't take it seriously until I started making some money out of
> it...=!>
I think my mum wishes I *would* make some money out of it. :)
John
--
John Upstone * jo...@shikasta.demon.co.uk * ju...@cix.co.uk
Dial up, Log in, Chill out * Peace, Love, Unity, Respect
..................................................................
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medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who
apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity."
- Dave Barry, Miami Herald