Working with Copper
perrych7btinte...@news.diybanter.com
I hope some knowledgable people out there can give me some advice!
I'm intending to use copper microbore (8mm & 10mm) to make a "twisting"
garden sculpture. I'd like to know what colour this will end up when
left outside, as I don't know whether microbore is "annealed" or
"enamelled" or not treated at all.
I may also incorporate some smaller wire for decoration - I'm
considering Enamelled Copper Wire (2mm) which I assume would stay
"shiny" even outside? Or possibly annealed copper wire (like that used
for binding bonsai trees!) - I believe the latter would end up a dull
sort of brown colour - am I right? (probably not!!)
Many thanks in advance of any kindly forthcoming help...
perrych7btinte...@news.diybanter.com
Doctor Evil
"perr...@btinternet.com" <perrych7btinte...@news.diybanter.com>
wrote in message news:perrych7btinte...@news.diybanter.com...
>
> I hope some knowledgable people out there can give me some advice!
>
> I'm intending to use copper microbore (8mm & 10mm) to make a "twisting"
> garden sculpture. I'd like to know what colour this will end up when
> left outside, as I don't know whether microbore is "annealed" or
> "enamelled" or not treated at all.
It will end up green. Best paint it.
> I may also incorporate some smaller wire for decoration - I'm
> considering Enamelled Copper Wire (2mm) which I assume would stay
> "shiny" even outside? Or possibly annealed copper wire (like that used
> for binding bonsai trees!) - I believe the latter would end up a dull
> sort of brown colour - am I right? (probably not!!)
>
> Many thanks in advance of any kindly forthcoming help...
>
> Chip
>
> ***APOLOGIES FOR POSTING TWICE IN ERROR!!***
>
>
> --
> perr...@btinternet.com
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nightjar
"Doctor Evil" <Min...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:4255...@news.usenetzone.com...
>
> "perr...@btinternet.com"
> <perrych7btinte...@news.diybanter.com>
> wrote in message news:perrych7btinte...@news.diybanter.com...
>>
>> I hope some knowledgable people out there can give me some advice!
>>
>> I'm intending to use copper microbore (8mm & 10mm) to make a "twisting"
>> garden sculpture. I'd like to know what colour this will end up when
>> left outside, as I don't know whether microbore is "annealed" or
>> "enamelled" or not treated at all.
>
> It will end up green.
Not for a very long time and then probably only if there is a lot of acid
rain.
Colin Bignell
smudger
www.theartsmithworkshop.biz
al
>> garden sculpture. I'd like to know what colour this will end up when
>> left outside, as I don't know whether microbore is "annealed" or
>> "enamelled" or not treated at all.
>
> It will end up green. Best paint it.
Sort of ruins the point of using it! It will go greenish after a long time,
depending on conditions. He could of course use the odd bit of brasso to
polish it up ;o)
a
raden
perr...@btinternet.com writes
>
>I hope some knowledgable people out there can give me some advice!
>
>I'm intending to use copper microbore (8mm & 10mm) to make a "twisting"
>garden sculpture.
You mean a still ?
--
geoff
big...@meeow.co.uk
> I'm intending to use copper microbore (8mm & 10mm) to make a
"twisting"
> garden sculpture. I'd like to know what colour this will end up when
> left outside, as I don't know whether microbore is "annealed" or
> "enamelled" or not treated at all.
green
> I may also incorporate some smaller wire for decoration - I'm
> considering Enamelled Copper Wire (2mm) which I assume would stay
> "shiny" even outside?
dirty at first, then later green
> Or possibly annealed copper wire (like that used
> for binding bonsai trees!) - I believe the latter would end up a dull
> sort of brown colour - am I right? (probably not!!)
green
NT
Ian Stirling
If it was a still, he wouldn't be working with copper.
Unless it was bent copper.
raden
Stirling <ro...@mauve.demon.co.uk> writes
"Twisting" seems to indicate something other than straight lines Ian
I've heard that they have such things up in Scotland
--
geoff
The Natural Philosopher
> I hope some knowledgable people out there can give me some advice!
>
> I'm intending to use copper microbore (8mm & 10mm) to make a "twisting"
> garden sculpture. I'd like to know what colour this will end up when
> left outside, as I don't know whether microbore is "annealed" or
> "enamelled" or not treated at all.
Green. Copper carbonate.
>
> I may also incorporate some smaller wire for decoration - I'm
> considering Enamelled Copper Wire (2mm) which I assume would stay
> "shiny" even outside?
Yes.
Or possibly annealed copper wire (like that used
> for binding bonsai trees!) - I believe the latter would end up a dull
> sort of brown colour - am I right? (probably not!!)
>
No. copper goes red or brown from oxides fairly quickly, but prlonged
exposure to rain causes that to turn to carbonet.
You can use some chemical - can't remember what it is - to blacken
copper as used in copper bas relief work, but you need a lacquer over
the top to prevent it going the carbonate route.
The Natural Philosopher
It happens in a year or so to some extent: The really nice overall green
patina on copper ropoves takes a few years to develop.
All rain is acid due to dissolved Co2.
> Colin Bignell
>
>
>
The Natural Philosopher
> perr...@btinternet.com wrote:
>
>
>>I'm intending to use copper microbore (8mm & 10mm) to make a
>
> "twisting"
>
>>garden sculpture. I'd like to know what colour this will end up when
>>left outside, as I don't know whether microbore is "annealed" or
>>"enamelled" or not treated at all.
>
>
> green
>
>
>
>>I may also incorporate some smaller wire for decoration - I'm
>>considering Enamelled Copper Wire (2mm) which I assume would stay
>>"shiny" even outside?
>
>
> dirty at first, then later green
>
No. enamelling is TOUGH. It will last years outside without degradation.
a
John Stumbles
> I hope some knowledgable people out there can give me some advice!
>
> I'm intending to use copper microbore (8mm & 10mm) to make a "twisting"
> garden sculpture. I'd like to know what colour this will end up when
> left outside, as I don't know whether microbore is "annealed" or
> "enamelled" or not treated at all.
It's annealed, not enamelled. It'll go dirty brown quite quickly. If
you're after a verdigris finish it won't, if that's the last thing you
want it will :-)
Acid flux left around soldered joints seems to give verdigris quite quickly.
> I may also incorporate some smaller wire for decoration - I'm
> considering Enamelled Copper Wire (2mm) which I assume would stay
> "shiny" even outside? Or possibly annealed copper wire (like that used
> for binding bonsai trees!) - I believe the latter would end up a dull
> sort of brown colour - am I right? (probably not!!)
Enamelled wire would probably keep its colour longer, but wouldn't then
match your sculpture. You could probably acquire un-enamelled wire of
various grades for the asking from an electrician or skip: just strip it
from PVC cable.
al
news:1112915163.5...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>> Or possibly annealed copper wire (like that used
>> for binding bonsai trees!) - I believe the latter would end up a dull
>> sort of brown colour - am I right? (probably not!!)
>
> green
>
Properly annealed metals should retain their annealed appearance almost
indefinitely.
a
nightjar
"The Natural Philosopher" <A@b.c> wrote in message
news:111291765...@sabbath.news.uk.clara.net...
I have some decorative copper pipework associated with my pond that is still
brown after seven years and that shows no signs of going green.
> All rain is acid due to dissolved Co2.
However, carbonic acid is a very weak acid. It is more effective at
attacking the copper if working in concert with sulphurous acid.
Colin Bignell
David
it shiny. I do outdoor sculpture with copper and first use fine steel
wool to get down to bare metal, chemically clean with good old malt
vinegar (how people use that stuff as food flavouring !) and then with
a bit of practice apply a cupric nitrate solution. Hey presto 3 years
worth of patination in an hour. If you want to keep it a plain old
brown just apply some wax to keep the acid rain away.
The Natural Philosopher
> "The Natural Philosopher" <A@b.c> wrote in message
> news:111291765...@sabbath.news.uk.clara.net...
>
>>nightjar <nightjar@ wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Doctor Evil" <Min...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>news:4255...@news.usenetzone.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>"perr...@btinternet.com"
>>>><perrych7btinte...@news.diybanter.com>
>>>>wrote in message news:perrych7btinte...@news.diybanter.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I hope some knowledgable people out there can give me some advice!
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm intending to use copper microbore (8mm & 10mm) to make a "twisting"
>>>>>garden sculpture. I'd like to know what colour this will end up when
>>>>>left outside, as I don't know whether microbore is "annealed" or
>>>>>"enamelled" or not treated at all.
>>>>
>>>>It will end up green.
>>>
>>>
>>>Not for a very long time and then probably only if there is a lot of acid
>>>rain.
>>>
>>
>>It happens in a year or so to some extent: The really nice overall green
>>patina on copper ropoves takes a few years to develop.
>
>
> I have some decorative copper pipework associated with my pond that is still
> brown after seven years and that shows no signs of going green.
>
Its probably lacquered then.
>
>>All rain is acid due to dissolved Co2.
>
>
> However, carbonic acid is a very weak acid. It is more effective at
> attacking the copper if working in concert with sulphurous acid.
>
TRue
I think the route that copper gioes is basically surface oxidation to
cuprous oxide, which then works with carbonic acide to go to copper
carbonate.
Copper sulpate as such is blue, not green and water soluble - though
sulphide is very black IIRC.
All I know is that in the presence of hard water (leaks/condenstaion) on
my plumbing green deposits occur very quickly - especially on HW pipes
where temps are high. In fact condensation also turns pipes green.
My experiences with domestic plumbibg are if he copper is left indoors
is slowly goes brwon with an oxide later, but if it gets damp outside it
rapidly goes green. We are in a hard water area so that may explain the
arpidity of carbonation on leaking pipes.
> Colin Bignell
>
>
>
The Natural Philosopher
What is the stuff that make it stink of rotten eggs and turns it black?
Presumably a sulphite of some sort?
OI had mnoe of those 'copper picture' kits years ago. A layer of laquer
has kept if a good mixture of copper and black for years...
Mary Fisher
>
> What is the stuff that make it stink of rotten eggs and turns it black?
> Presumably a sulphite of some sort?
Hydrogen Sulphide.
Andy Dingley
wrote:
>Properly annealed metals should retain their annealed appearance almost
>indefinitely.
What's an "annealed appearance" ?
Annealed pure copper will remain soft indefinitely, but most aluminium
alloys will "age harden" afterwards, no matter what you do. This is
inherent in the alloy's behaviour, it's not a question of "proper
technique"
Copper left alone outside will darken to a tolerable dark patina, but
it will take an age and is likely to have pale green spots on it.
You're unlikely to get a greenish deposit overall, unless there's
water or tree sap running over it, but you'll get at least one visible
splodge of it. To avoid this, apply a deliberate patina immediately.
Applied patina is more stable against discolouration than bare metal.
For an easy life, spend a fiver on a bottle of Liberon's "Tourmaline
brown" antique patina for copper (from Axminster). It's an easy cold
process - not the best in the world, but it's the best you can do for
a fiver, working cold, and without shopping for awkward to locate
chemistry.
If you want to colour copper, then read these two books:
"The Colouring, Bronzing and Patination of Metals"
<http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0500015015/codesmiths>
This is _the_ book on colouring non-ferrous, non-exotics. Expensive,
but worth it. Well known, so any decent library should have access to
it.
Tim McCreight, "Color on Metal"
<http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1893164063/codesmiths>
Cheaper, but less comprehensive. Worth reading if you happen across
it.
Two relatively simple copper recipes with easily obtained ingredients
are these:
Glossy dark brown (recipe 3.69 in CB&P)
copper carbonate 125g
.880 ammonia 250cm^3
water 750cm^3
(It may be easier to replace both water and ammonia with 1litre of 26%
ammonia, which is commonly available in hardware shops)
Simmer in a warm bath of this mixture at 50°C for around an hour - the
colour develops slowly. Wash in hot water, then dry by tumbling in a
box of sawdust . Wax afterwards.
Matt dark brown (recipe 3.70 in CB&P)
cooper sulphate 125g
ferrous sulphate 100g
glacial acetic acid 6.5cm^3
water 1litre
Boil for 30-40 minutes. Wash in hot water, then dry by tumbling in a
box of sawdust . Wax afterwards.
Both of these recipes use common chemistry that's of little toxic
hazard. However the ammonia process needs good ventilation and keeping
away from aluminium (For comfort I wear a full-face mask too - a half
mask is useless, as ammonia will enter via the eyes). Acetic acid in
this strength is corrosive and irritating, so wear gloves and keep it
out of the eyes.
--
Smert' spamionam
Mary Fisher
"Andy Dingley" <din...@codesmiths.com> wrote in message
news:bdrc51tur2f5jnjbl...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 07:27:24 GMT, "al" <{ask_me}@blueyonder.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>>Properly annealed metals should retain their annealed appearance almost
>>indefinitely.
>
> What's an "annealed appearance" ?
I'm glad you asked that, I was wondering too ...
Mary
Mark Carver
> All I know is that in the presence of hard water (leaks/condenstaion) on
> my plumbing green deposits occur very quickly - especially on HW pipes
> where temps are high. In fact condensation also turns pipes green.
>
> My experiences with domestic plumbibg are if he copper is left indoors
> is slowly goes brwon with an oxide later, but if it gets damp outside it
> rapidly goes green. We are in a hard water area so that may explain the
> arpidity of carbonation on leaking pipes.
Same here; (but how can water as a result of condensation be hard ?)
--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.
Chris Bacon
> I tend to think they put some laquer on the pipe at production to keep
> it shiny
Really?
markzoom
I'm just wondering what colour it would go in salt water. All the
copper exposed to the sea that I've seen is green.
M.K.
The Natural Philosopher
waht the stuff IS.
The Natural Philosopher
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> All I know is that in the presence of hard water (leaks/condenstaion)
>> on my plumbing green deposits occur very quickly - especially on HW
>> pipes where temps are high. In fact condensation also turns pipes green.
>>
>> My experiences with domestic plumbibg are if he copper is left indoors
>> is slowly goes brwon with an oxide later, but if it gets damp outside
>> it rapidly goes green. We are in a hard water area so that may explain
>> the arpidity of carbonation on leaking pipes.
>
>
> Same here; (but how can water as a result of condensation be hard ?)
>
Mm. I wrote that badly.
Leaks go green very quickly. Condensation still greens, but less quickly.
I guess the condensation has Co2 from the air, whereas the hard water
has calcium and or sodium carbonate (after softening) in it.
I can't remember the reaction routes, but I am fairly sure you need to
go via copper or cuprous oxides: The air 'browns' the copper due to a
surface layer of cuprous and cupric oxide? And then THAT layer goes to a
carbonate in the presence of carbonated water.
I know that no copper that _stays dry_ indoors goes green, but it does
brown up quickly.
The Natural Philosopher
You are right.
I suspect that is anoher reaction route again.
But copper UNDER teh sea does not...IIRC. It needs air...
> M.K.
perrych7btinte...@news.diybanter.com
Well - thank you everyone for so many very informative & interesting
replies & ideas. A huge help to me...
I'm not too keen on using chemicals, so will probably start by letting
nature takes its course with the finished sculpture, as an experiment!
It will be under a tree, so it could get interesting!
The salt water idea appeals if I decide that green would be better than
whatever occurs naturally - the thing should be moveable, so I could
"douse" it away from any plants that may not be so keen on a salty
soaking!
Again thank you all. It's so wonderful that people are so willing &
generous with the sharing of knowledge. I don't know what life would be
like now without the internet & forums such as this...
Kindest regards!
Chip
The Natural Philosopher Wrote:
> markzoom wrote:
> -
> "David" d.med...@btinternet.com wrote in message
> news:1112949958.7...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> -
> I tend to think they put some laquer on the pipe at production to
> keep
> it shiny. I do outdoor sculpture with copper and first use fine steel
> wool to get down to bare metal, chemically clean with good old malt
> vinegar (how people use that stuff as food flavouring !) and then with
> a bit of practice apply a cupric nitrate solution. Hey presto 3 years
> worth of patination in an hour. If you want to keep it a plain old
> brown just apply some wax to keep the acid rain away.-
>
>
> I'm just wondering what colour it would go in salt water. All the
> copper exposed to the sea that I've seen is green.-
>
> You are right.
>
> I suspect that is anoher reaction route again.
>
> But copper UNDER teh sea does not...IIRC. It needs air...
>
>
> -
> M.K.-
big...@meeow.co.uk
> Again thank you all. It's so wonderful that people are so willing &
> generous with the sharing of knowledge. I don't know what life would
be
> like now without the internet & forums such as this...
hear hear. I think we were living in the dark ages and didnt know it.
NT
Chris Bacon
> Really?
Sorry, David, I've just had one of my infrequent looks at my
e-mail, and I see a comment, so I re-open this to answer -
outbound mail is currently TU.
To expand on my "Really?": they don't put lacquer on copper pipes
to keep them shiny - it would seriously interfere with soldering,
so tradesmen/DIYers around the country would go purple with rage!
Regards,
Bill H
wrote:
>
>All rain is acid due to dissolved Co2.
>
>> Colin Bignell
Can you buy (or make) a more concentrated carbonic acid to speed up
the verdigris process?
Bill H
X-No-Archive
Frank Erskine
wrote:
Soda water.
--
Frank Erskine
Ed Sirett
or a 1:1:1 mixture of
Calcium Chloride
Ammonium Chloride
Copper Nitrate.
Doubtless obtain pre-mixed from a supplier online.
--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Aidan
know if the same stuff would work on copper or if they do a formula for
copper.
www.tiranti.co.uk
I heard that roofers would accelerate the growth of the patina on a
copper roof by urinating on it, but I can't recall whether this was
conversation was about this being a beneficial or detrimental effect.
If it was just a long climb down to the toilet it may have caused
uneven colouring.
Bob Mannix
"Aidan" <amc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1115733592.8...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
This is probably quite correct, I suspect. I have a friend whose father was
a sculptor. He used to put bronzes out by the gatepost for dogs to wee on/
cats to spray as it gave the right patina. He didn't work in copper but it
might be worth leaving /peeing on a test piece and leaving it outside.
--
--
Bob Mannix
>
Tam
roof was complete the plumbers went around the site with buckets for
everyone to pee in. This was then poured and brushed over the copper roof to
accelerate it turning green.
The Natural Philosopher
> The Natural Philosopher <A@b.c> wrote:
>
>
>>>>>I'm intending to use copper microbore (8mm & 10mm) to make a "twisting"
>>>>>garden sculpture. I'd like to know what colour this will end up when
>>>>>left outside, as I don't know whether microbore is "annealed" or
>>>>>"enamelled" or not treated at all.
>>>>
>>>>It will end up green.
>>>
>>>
>>>Not for a very long time and then probably only if there is a lot of acid
>>>rain.
>>>
>>
>>It happens in a year or so to some extent: The really nice overall green
>>patina on copper ropoves takes a few years to develop.
>
>
> I have downspouts and gutters in copper, it hasn't gone green, it's
> brown and currently tending towards black.
>
Be patient.
It will go..
Doctor Evil
<m...@privacy.net> wrote in message news:4D699381C5%brian...@lycos.co.uk...
> On 11 May,
> black (copper sulphide), and the more normal CO2 will give a green copper
> carbonate colour.
Liverpool must have clean air then, as the copper roof on the Anglican
cathedral is green.
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Andrew Gabriel
"Tam" <tam...@virgin.net> writes:
> I worked on a job years ago where they were doing a copper roof. When the
> roof was complete the plumbers went around the site with buckets for
> everyone to pee in.
Otherwise known as Taking the Piss.
> This was then poured and brushed over the copper roof to
> accelerate it turning green.
Oh, more traditionally used to do the laundry...
--
Andrew Gabriel
Owain
> Liverpool must have clean air then, as the copper roof on the Anglican
> cathedral is green.
In the tabloids yesterday that following the appointment of the new
Pope, Eggs Benedict have been removed from Rangers corporate
entertainment menu.
Owain
Dave Plowman (News)
Doctor Evil <Min...@nospam.com> wrote:
> Liverpool must have clean air then, as the copper roof on the Anglican
> cathedral is green.
They spray it with some form of acid to make it uniformly green
immediately - I remebemer seeing this done to the dome of the art gallery
in Aberdeen when I was a kid. One day the new roof was gleaming copper -
the next bright green.
--
*If you don't like the news, go out and make some.
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Andy Dingley
>When the roof was complete the plumbers went around the site with buckets for
>everyone to pee in. This was then poured and brushed over the copper roof to
>accelerate it turning green.
That's a bad idea for patinating copper. It gives you a rapid "green
colour", but it's the wrong sort of copper salt. It won't give a stable
colour, and it may even accelerate corrosion.
MrBlueSkye
"Steve Firth" <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1gwf673.17ive9xe14b1lN%%steve%@malloc.co.uk...
Try a bottle of cheap brown sauce, soaked a brass "dutch girl" door knocker
in it last week, and it was covered in thick verdi gris.