> In article: <01bd277b$0b0e7740$LocalHost@8721hvt85436> "Andy Wade" > <AJW...@dial.pipex.com> writes: > :) > erm... Now what happens if I run my ordinary combi at 45 - 50C circ. > :) water > :) > temp. ? > :) > :) Well it won't turn it into a condensing boiler - or at least you hope it > :) won't. Condensation in non-condensing boilers is generally bad news - > see > :) previous threads on wet ignitors, etc. Condensation shouldn't occur > :) because the flue gasses remain above the dewpoint under all > circumstances. > :) Condensing boilers have additional heat exchanger surface to cool the > :) exhaust sufficiently to produce condensation. > :)
> The ignition system isn't a problem unless it rains down enough to put the > pilot light out. Maybe I'll just get a wet carpet - no I won't, it's sealed > ain't it !
> Oh well ? Anyway, the boiler stat looks like it'll go down to 30C - pretty > useless at that though.
> -- > Comm again, Mike.
I heard that condensed flue vapours can be pretty corrosive which could lead to serious long term damage in boilers which don't have a drain for them.
The message <38221962...@paley.demon.co.yuk> from Mike Paley <m...@paley.demon.co.yuk> contains these words:
> But I NEVER said do a bodge job ! The boiler needs a supply of fresh air > and the exhaust taking away. Boiler manufacturers are doing it already by > putting fans in the flues. A gas tight flue is essential and so is a fan > failure detector.
Fair enough. Not worth arguing about. However I would personally never attempt to do myself what boiler manufacturers themselves are hopefully rather good at. I'm sure that you, Mike, like Matthew would not want to encourage anyone to get into things that they're not competent to attempt. And the consequences of filling your house with CO don't bear thinking about.
> But I NEVER said do a bodge job ! The boiler needs a supply of fresh air > and the exhaust taking away. Boiler manufacturers are doing it already by > putting fans in the flues. A gas tight flue is essential and so is a fan > failure detector.
Of course, but I think the point was that:
"fit the boiler with it's normal flue but duct it into a pipe with a fan in it or something"
was rather vague and off-hand, and just might tempt someone who really had no idea of the dangers, to do something silly.
Take this as an explanation of MM's response rather than a criticism, I'm always making vague and off-hand remarks here.
In article <1998012520452070...@zetnet.co.uk>, Ian Smith <ian.sm...@zetnet.co.uk> writes
>The message <38221962...@paley.demon.co.yuk> > from Mike Paley <m...@paley.demon.co.yuk> contains these words:
>> But I NEVER said do a bodge job ! snip > I'm sure that you, Mike, like Matthew would not want to >encourage anyone to get into things that they're not competent to attempt. >And the consequences of filling your house with CO don't bear thinking about.
>Ian. >Here here, one funeral of a young student who died this way is enough
> I heard that condensed flue vapours can be pretty corrosive which could > lead to serious long term damage in boilers which don't have a drain for > them.
Yes indeed, that's another good reason why you don't want condensation in a conventional boiler. It's also why all condensing boilers have aluminium heat exchangers - copper is out because of the problem of it being leached into the drainage system. The only other suitable material, apparently, is 316 stainless steel, which is too expensive at least for domestic boilers.
Actually, according to the CIBSE manual I referred to in a previous post the condensate is "only mildly acidic" with a pH in the range 3 - 4.5, typically 3.5, but of course time and temperature will take their toll even with that "mild" degree of corrosiveness.
> Yes indeed, that's another good reason why you don't want condensation in a > conventional boiler. It's also why all condensing boilers have aluminium > heat exchangers - copper is out because of the problem of it being leached > into the drainage system. The only other suitable material, apparently, is > 316 stainless steel, which is too expensive at least for domestic boilers.
...........
Looking at what is currently available on the market I actually find that many manufacturers do use stainless steel heat exchangers. These boilers certainly have outputs suitable for domestic use. I have not yet done a price comparison.
> Looking at what is currently available on the market I actually find > that many manufacturers do use stainless steel heat exchangers. These > boilers certainly have outputs suitable for domestic use. I have not > yet done a price comparison.
In article <38221962...@paley.demon.co.yuk>, Mike Paley <m...@paley.demon.co.yuk> writes:
>In article: <1998012419263270...@zetnet.co.uk> Ian Smith ><ian.sm...@zetnet.co.uk> writes: >:) Heath-Robinson bodges with gas boilers don't seem too clever to me, >either. >:) Matthew was probably rather keen to impress on anyone who doesn't know >better >:) that DIY in relation to boiler flues is potentially a >:) life-threatening passtime. >:)
>But I NEVER said do a bodge job ! The boiler needs a supply of fresh air >and the exhaust taking away. Boiler manufacturers are doing it already by >putting fans in the flues. A gas tight flue is essential and so is a fan >failure detector.
I believe you would have to get the appliance Gas Council approved again following any such change. That would probably cost you many times the cost of a replacement appliance designed to cope with the containt you are attempting to work around.
Matthew Marks wrote in message <6a9ppr$...@bbcnews.rd.bbc.co.uk>... >In article <801269441...@paley.demon.co.yuk>, > Mike Paley <m...@paley.demon.co.yuk> writes: >> The only other thing is the flue, have >> a look at different boilers to see what off the shelf options there are. >> Then consider Heath Robinson modifications to suit your requirements and >> the boiler's !
>> E.g. fit the boiler with it's normal flue but duct it into a pipe with a >> fan in it or something.
>That is the most idiotic piece of advice I have seen in this newsgroup for a >long time.
>-- >Matthew @rd.bbc.co.uk My opinions, not Auntie's *RETURN ADDRESS
:) > But I NEVER said do a bodge job ! The boiler needs a supply of fresh air :) > and the exhaust taking away. Boiler manufacturers are doing it already by :) > putting fans in the flues. A gas tight flue is essential and so is a fan :) > failure detector. :) :) Fair enough. Not worth arguing about. However I would personally never :) attempt to do myself what boiler manufacturers themselves are hopefully :) rather good at. I'm sure that you, Mike, like Matthew would not want to :) encourage anyone to get into things that they're not competent to attempt. :) And the consequences of filling your house with CO don't bear thinking about. :)
It's a case of being competent enough to know your own competence level for a particular task.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure of my competence to take the car back to the garage and competently complain that they've done a bodge job of fitting my exhaust. Both new joints leak, one badly and at least the tail pipe has mountings missing !
-- Comm again, Mike.
My friend used to go to parties on the moon. He stopped going, so I asked him why and he replied. "They've got no atmosphere."
:) Yes indeed, that's another good reason why you don't want condensation in a :) conventional boiler. It's also why all condensing boilers have aluminium :) heat exchangers - copper is out because of the problem of it being leached :) into the drainage system. The only other suitable material, apparently, is :) 316 stainless steel, which is too expensive at least for domestic boilers. :)
I'd have though allyminium would be worse as it's more reactive. But it's chemistry - and that's where I shut up !
-- Comm again, Mike.
My friend used to go to parties on the moon. He stopped going, so I asked him why and he replied. "They've got no atmosphere."
n.w.nel...@education.leeds.ac.uk (nick nelson) writes: :) Mike Paley wrote:
:) :) > :) > But I NEVER said do a bodge job ! The boiler needs a supply of fresh air :) > and the exhaust taking away. Boiler manufacturers are doing it already by :) > putting fans in the flues. A gas tight flue is essential and so is a fan :) > failure detector. :) > :) :) Of course, but I think the point was that: :) :) "fit the boiler with it's normal flue but duct it into a pipe with :) a fan in it or something" :) :) was rather vague and off-hand, and just might tempt someone who :) really had no idea of the dangers, to do something silly. :) :) Take this as an explanation of MM's response rather than :) a criticism, I'm always making vague and off-hand remarks :) here. :)
Come on be truthful !!! I'm an incompetent Usenet user ! - for not taking into account WHO may take the "advice" and....
-- Comm again, Mike.
My friend used to go to parties on the moon. He stopped going, so I asked him why and he replied. "They've got no atmosphere."
:) > I'm sure that you, Mike, like Matthew would not want to :) >encourage anyone to get into things that they're not competent to attempt. :) >And the consequences of filling your house with CO don't bear thinking about. :) > :) >Ian. :) >Here here, one funeral of a young student who died this way is enough :) for me. :) :) Stay safe. :)
I went to a new friend's house a while back. It wasn't long before I got a "sleepsafe" CO detector. Ok, CO is smellless(!) but there was a "paraffiny" smell - from a gas cooker !
-- Comm again, Mike.
My friend used to go to parties on the moon. He stopped going, so I asked him why and he replied. "They've got no atmosphere."
> > Looking at what is currently available on the market I actually find > > that many manufacturers do use stainless steel heat exchangers. These > > boilers certainly have outputs suitable for domestic use. I have not > > yet done a price comparison.
> I stand corrected. Can you name some names?
> -- > Andy
Viessman, Yorkstar (I'm told), Atlantic 2000, Eco
Broag,
Ferroli use copper (primary) and aluminium secondary --
Sorry about the previous posting. A software glitch caused the message to be sent before I had finished composing it!
Andy Wade wrote:
> Alan Briggs wrote ...
> > Looking at what is currently available on the market I actually find > > that many manufacturers do use stainless steel heat exchangers. These > > boilers certainly have outputs suitable for domestic use. I have not > > yet done a price comparison.
> I stand corrected. Can you name some names?
> -- > Andy
At present the Energy Saving Trust (government sponsored organisation) is offering a £200 cashback on condensing boilers from a list of approved suppliers. From the suppliers on this list:
Atlantic 2000, Eco Hometec, Vaillant and Viessman use stainless steel heat exchangers. Yorkpark told me they do and I think Keston do also.
Broag and Potterton use Aluminium.
Ferroli use copper (primary) and aluminium (secondary). Vokera use "cast alloy".
There are a number of other manufacturers but I don't have their details to hand. The recommended retail proce of the Potterton boiler is not significantly lower than that of at least some of those with stainless steel heat exchangers.
>In article: <6a9ppr$...@bbcnews.rd.bbc.co.uk> nob...@rd.bbc.co.uk (Matthew >Marks) writes: >:) > E.g. fit the boiler with it's normal flue but duct it into a pipe with >a >:) > fan in it or something. >:) >:) That is the most idiotic piece of advice I have seen in this newsgroup >for a >:) long time. >:)
>Go on then, explain.
>-- >Comm again, Mike.
>My friend used to go to parties on the moon. He stopped going, so I asked >him why and he replied. "They've got no atmosphere."
Well of course you can fan a conventional flue. It is a common place arrangement in large commercial and industrial setups where single large or smaller modular boilers are used. It is very rarely used in a domestic setup though instances can be found. A "flue booster" unit is fitted in the conventional flue and a flow switch is incorporated to ensure that if the fan fails,the burner stays off. Similar fan units can be fitted to chimney pots etc. Agreed it is less than ideal as it doesnt help boiler efficiency.Far better to install something more suitable for the situation....
> Unfortunately, I'm not sure of my competence to take the car back to the > garage and competently complain that they've done a bodge job of fitting my > exhaust. Both new joints leak, one badly and at least the tail pipe has > mountings missing !
If the garage is one of a chain, go to another garage in the chain and say 'My exhaust seems a bit dodgy - can you fix it'.
Then, when presented with the bill, produce your receipt from the other garage and tell them to claim from them.
-- The views expressed are my own and may not represent those of my employer.
In article <296439243...@paley.demon.co.yuk>, Mike Paley <m...@paley.demon.co.yuk> writes:
> In article: <6a9ppr$...@bbcnews.rd.bbc.co.uk> nob...@rd.bbc.co.uk (Matthew > Marks) writes: >:) > E.g. fit the boiler with it's normal flue but duct it into a pipe with > a >:) > fan in it or something. >:) >:) That is the most idiotic piece of advice I have seen in this newsgroup > for a >:) long time. >:)
> Go on then, explain.
Thank you to others who have correctly guessed my worries in my absence from this thread. Making throw-away remarks like that, with no mention of fan failure detectors, etc, might just encourage someone without sufficient knowledge (like MOST of us when it comes to gas flues) to take your advice literally, and create a very dangerous installation. As has also been pointed out, they might not know about it because of the nature of carbon monoxide.
-- Matthew @rd.bbc.co.uk My opinions, not Auntie's *RETURN ADDRESS SPAMPROOFED*
In article <348110336...@paley.demon.co.yuk>, Mike Paley <m...@paley.demon.co.yuk> writes:
> I'd have though allyminium would be worse as it's more reactive. But it's > chemistry - and that's where I shut up !
I thought the point about Al was its oxide (see welding thread) which is impermeable and very non-reactive. It forms pretty instantly and protects the metal underneath.
-- Matthew @rd.bbc.co.uk My opinions, not Auntie's *RETURN ADDRESS SPAMPROOFED*
In article <34CD9DE1.7...@nortel.co.uk>, Alan Briggs <Alan.Briggs.2818...@nortel.co.uk> writes:
> At present the Energy Saving Trust (government sponsored organisation) > is offering a £200 cashback on condensing boilers from a list of > approved suppliers.
But isn't taht only if the boiler's fitted professionally, thereby neatly wiping out the saving? (CORGI police: please keep quiet.)
-- Matthew @rd.bbc.co.uk My opinions, not Auntie's *RETURN ADDRESS SPAMPROOFED*
That is what it says in the leaflet says. And it must be fitted before the end of this month. Where is a good place to go to for condensing boilers - how much would a 80,000 BTU output boiler resonably cost? Would you recommend one?
