Cable locators like Fluke 2042 to find faulty electric ufh?

[swimm...@yahoo.co.uk]

The underfloor mat is a ProWarm generating 200w per square metre (the area is about 12sqm) - it worked perfectly for about nine months then it went cold all of a sudden....I've checked the resistance and gives nil point/dead/gone/zilch - obviously I'm dealing with an open circuit here...
The mat is still under warranty but the boys at ProWarm are making it difficult and it appears to me I'll have to find a compromise with them...
Still, it would be nice to be able to check these sort of faults independently - there are some cable locators in the market which are quite affordable (e.g. the Mastek - a Fluke 2042 clone - for £129) - how reliable/precise are these instruments? How do these compare to the thermal imaging method? Are 2 transmitters required?

[Bob Minchin]

I'm not sure how well this would work, it is not designed to locate a
break in the cable. there might well be a break at DC/50Hz but at the
test frequency, the capacitance may disguise the break.
I would suggest grounding the other end of the cable to help show up the
break.
Rather than shell out for a cheap copy instrument, I'd look at hiring
pro kit.

[swimm...@yahoo.co.uk]

this is one of these cable fault locators (apparently a clone of the Fluke):
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MS6818-Wire-Cable-Tracker-Metal-Pipe-Locator-Detector-Tester-Meter-AC-DC-12-400V-/151062445094?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item232c05fc26

here's the manual: on page 20 it describe how to find a fault on an underfloor cable:
http://www.savebase.com/InfoBase/downloads/tmp/MS6818_user_manual.pdf

interestingly there are 2 options: with 1 transmitter and with 2....

[Bob Minchin]

Might be worth a punt then? I see that in the 1 transmitter case, they
also advocate grounding the other end.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

I have a relatively cheap cable tracer which injects a radio signal and
uses a receiver to pick it up. Works just fine to identify a cable in a
bunch - so may well tell you where the break is. Got mine from Ebay.



In article <b57655eb-5baa-4541...@googlegroups.com>,

--
*The more people I meet, the more I like my dog.

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[swimm...@yahoo.co.uk]

> I have a relatively cheap cable tracer which injects a radio signal and
>
> uses a receiver to pick it up. Works just fine to identify a cable in a
>
> bunch - so may well tell you where the break is. Got mine from Ebay.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

is the one you have like the Mastech on Ebay? (see previous link).

[Nthkentman]

wrote in message
news:b57655eb-5baa-4541...@googlegroups.com...

9 Months old?!?!?!?
Scream "Fit for purpose" and tell them to sort it or involve Trading
Standards

[Chris J Dixon]

If you have an open circuit, then how do you envisage thermal
imaging can help? Surely that is only of use if at least some of
the mat is still working?

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
ch...@cdixon.me.uk

Plant amazing Acers.

[swimm...@yahoo.co.uk]

>
> If you have an open circuit, then how do you envisage thermal
>
> imaging can help? Surely that is only of use if at least some of
>
> the mat is still working?
>
>
>
> Chris
>

They use a megger + thermal imaging....the megohmeter pumps 500v into the cable so the breakage is visible on the thermal camera.
I've never seen it done and found this info recently while googling...but apparently this is the professional way to do it - the gear is very expensive compared to the cable locators method (Fluke, Mastech and similar)...so, it is reasonable to assume the thermal camera is more accurate?!

[swimm...@yahoo.co.uk]

>
>
>
>
>
> 9 Months old?!?!?!?
>
> Scream "Fit for purpose" and tell them to sort it or involve Trading
>
> Standards

shocking isn't it?
These lifetime warranties are at most a red herring....they are saying it should have been fitted by a pro (who? the electrician or the tiler? or both?) but then the manual is made to believe this can be installed by anyone - in fact the description about the measurements relative to the Resistance (done with a simple multimeter) are fully documented but there is nothing about the insulation resistance requirements (done via 500v megger). Then they ask me if the work has been commissioned? I said no cos' the house isn't being used and thinking of leaving the commissioning job once the real pro is being called to install and check the whole property...before I start renting it.
So, the guys at ProWarm are make it difficult. I've contacted Trading Standards and they suggested to go ahead and send a written complaint - wait for the reply and contact Trading Standard again.

[Brian Gaff]

How can thermal imaging do anything in the case of an open circuit. You
would be better off with a signal generator and a small radio!

Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
<swimm...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b57655eb-5baa-4541...@googlegroups.com...

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <01939e23-6a1f-418b...@googlegroups.com>,

<swimm...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> They use a megger + thermal imaging....the megohmeter pumps 500v into
> the cable so the breakage is visible on the thermal camera.

Sounds odd to me.
Thermal imaging reacts to heat. How can you heat up something which is
open circuit? Wonder if it pumps in an RF signal which a heat sensitive
camera can pick up - rather than actual heat?

--
*To be intoxicated is to feel sophisticated, but not be able to say it.

[swimm...@yahoo.co.uk]

On Friday, 14 June 2013 09:35:15 UTC+1, Brian Gaff wrote:
> How can thermal imaging do anything in the case of an open circuit. You
>
> would be better off with a signal generator and a small radio!
>
>
>
> Brian
>
>
>
> --
>

If you google a bit you'll find a clear discussion (and pictures too) about this pro using a megger and a thermal image camera (maybe a discussion about a faulty Devi mat on DIYNot forum?)...

[The Other Mike]

What is the point in locating the fault? I can't see the point in buying test
kit to prove the heating element is faulty or where the fault is. If it's
faulty it's faulty and you'll probably have to rip up the entire floor and
replace it. It it's in sections that can be isolated then isolate them and
power up each bit separately. You might even be able to remove the damaged
section and get them to replace that bit under warranty.

Their warranty reeks of universal get out clause

"The warranty does not cover installations made by unauthorized persons or
faults caused by incorrect design by others / misuse / damage caused by others /
damage in transit / incorrect installation and any other subsequent damage that
may occur. Replacement will be fully chargeable if the damage is because of any
of the above reason"
--

[swimm...@yahoo.co.uk]

>
>
>
> What is the point in locating the fault? I can't see the point in buying test
>
> kit to prove the heating element is faulty or where the fault is. If it's
>
> faulty it's faulty and you'll probably have to rip up the entire floor and
>
> replace it. It it's in sections that can be isolated then isolate them and
>
> power up each bit separately. You might even be able to remove the damaged
>
> section and get them to replace that bit under warranty.
>
>
>
> Their warranty reeks of universal get out clause
>
>
>
> "The warranty does not cover installations made by unauthorized persons or
>
> faults caused by incorrect design by others / misuse / damage caused by others /
>
> damage in transit / incorrect installation and any other subsequent damage that
>
> may occur. Replacement will be fully chargeable if the damage is because of any
>
> of the above reason"
>
> --

What's the point on locating the fault? Actually, it makes a huge difference as one doesn't have to rip the whole floor - just lift one tile and the ufh repair kit costs only about £15...
Their warranty is just like many other warranties - seen it all before - then Trading Standards suggested to just ignore those claims and go ahead complaining in writing...the point is simple - the product should deliver...it's up to them to demonstrate the consumer has done something wrong.

[Rick Hughes]

I have a good cable locater, but you want to find a break in cable ..
which may be less than 1 mm .......... no standard cable locater would
do that.

You would need one that sends a signal down copper and you trace it to
where it stops .... leccy board use them.
Fibre cable companies also have signal reflection kit ... pump in a
signal it reflects back from break .. .so they know how far along to
start digging, there may be non-fibre equiv - but again may be no use on
install of small twists & turns.

If it's under warranty, it has failed and there is no sign of alteration
or damage then ... just get Prowarm to fix it.
If the tools exist they will have them

[The Other Mike]

On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 15:37:10 -0700 (PDT), swimm...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


>What's the point on locating the fault? Actually, it makes a huge difference as one
>doesn't have to rip the whole floor - just lift one tile and the ufh repair kit costs
>only about £15.

Assuming it is faulty at just one point.

Does a 'repair' have the same profile as the original cable and what area around
the repair location needs to be exposed to enable a repair to be carried out?

Also there appears to be no mention of repair kits on their website.


--

[swimm...@yahoo.co.uk]

>
> I have a good cable locater, but you want to find a break in cable ..
>
> which may be less than 1 mm .......... no standard cable locater would
>
> do that.
>
>
>
> You would need one that sends a signal down copper and you trace it to
>
> where it stops .... leccy board use them.
>
> Fibre cable companies also have signal reflection kit ... pump in a
>
> signal it reflects back from break .. .so they know how far along to
>
> start digging, there may be non-fibre equiv - but again may be no use on
>
> install of small twists & turns.
>
>
>
> If it's under warranty, it has failed and there is no sign of alteration
>
> or damage then ... just get Prowarm to fix it.
>
> If the tools exist they will have them

The Fluke 2042 and Mastech aren't standard cable locators - they have a transmitter and receiver...if you check their manuals there is a clear reference to locate breaks of ufh cables under the tiles.
I've sent a complaint to ProWarm...and also, I've just ordered one of those Mastech from Hong Kong for under £130 (I'm taking no chances).

[swimm...@yahoo.co.uk]

>
>
> Assuming it is faulty at just one point.
>
>
>
> Does a 'repair' have the same profile as the original cable and what area around
>
> the repair location needs to be exposed to enable a repair to be carried out?
>
>
>
> Also there appears to be no mention of repair kits on their website.
>
>
>
>
>
> --

The ProWarm staff told me they can locate the break and repair the cable and replacing the tiles at their expenses - if one comply with their warranty requirements (of course). So, it assumes they have these repair kit for their mats...
Then, I believe these kits (not ProWarm) are universal: http://www.fitcreative.co.uk/product/9060/uhacmse02/underfloor-heating/accessories/cable-repair-kit
For what I know they leave a cold spot - so, it's not an ideal solution but better than nothing.

[John Rumm]

On 15/06/2013 09:13, Rick Hughes wrote:

> Fibre cable companies also have signal reflection kit ... pump in a
> signal it reflects back from break .. .so they know how far along to
> start digging, there may be non-fibre equiv - but again may be no use on
> install of small twists & turns.

The higher end Network test gear also has TDR capabilities that will
identify the distance to a break. However you also need to know the wire
layout to make use of that.

Lower end kit can't do TDR testing, but can often measure cable
capacitance and convert that into length. Assuming the break is in just
one conductor you may be able to estimate a distance.

> If it's under warranty, it has failed and there is no sign of alteration
> or damage then ... just get Prowarm to fix it.
> If the tools exist they will have them

Yup, the way I would go in the circumstance.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[John]

On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 10:38:22 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> In article <01939e23-6a1f-418b...@googlegroups.com>,
> <swimm...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> They use a megger + thermal imaging....the megohmeter pumps 500v into
>> the cable so the breakage is visible on the thermal camera.
>
> Sounds odd to me.
> Thermal imaging reacts to heat. How can you heat up something which is
> open circuit? Wonder if it pumps in an RF signal which a heat sensitive
> camera can pick up - rather than actual heat?

I would imagine that they're hoping to detect the heat caused by a high
voltage arcing across the break. If you bang in 5kV from a Megger BM11
you might be able to hear where the arc is, or maybe set fire to all the
insulation ;-)

[John]

Thinking about it - an arc across a break would cause a lot of RF noise.

I have one of these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330856606416

The receiver is just an audio amp and I think it would easily find the
noise caused by the arc. If I ever encounter this problem I'll give it a
go and report back.

[swimm...@yahoo.co.uk]

>
>
>
> Thinking about it - an arc across a break would cause a lot of RF noise.
>
>
>
> I have one of these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330856606416
>
>
>
> The receiver is just an audio amp and I think it would easily find the
>
> noise caused by the arc. If I ever encounter this problem I'll give it a
>
> go and report back.

they use 500v not 5k (5000v!!!)...
The RJ line detector on the Ebay link costs about a tenth of the one designed to find high voltage cables....the principle is similar - dumb question: would you use it to find a faulty UFH cable?

[John]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 01:10:58 -0700, swimmydeepo wrote:


>>
>>
>> Thinking about it - an arc across a break would cause a lot of RF
>> noise.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have one of these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330856606416
>>
>>
>>
>> The receiver is just an audio amp and I think it would easily find the
>>
>> noise caused by the arc. If I ever encounter this problem I'll give it
>> a
>>
>> go and report back.
>
> they use 500v not 5k (5000v!!!)...

Yeah, I thought I put a smiley in.

> The RJ line detector on the Ebay link costs about a tenth of the one
> designed to find high voltage cables....the principle is similar - dumb
> question: would you use it to find a faulty UFH cable?

No, nothing like accurate enough.

Do you have (or have use of) an insulation tester? If you start on a low
test voltage and step it up until you get a reading you *might* be able
to hear where the arcing is coming from.

[swimm...@yahoo.co.uk]

update:
I've received a reply from ProWarm - if they send someone to find and repair the fault I might be expected to pay £300+ (and I'll have to deal myself with re-tiling the area)....then they pointed out that the sensor's resistance reading I provided was wrong (that's because I didn't switch the x1k in the multimeter)....so I'm not a qualified leccy and got to pay the whole lot - they didn't say that, but obviously they are preparing themselves for a battle.
On my part I mentioned that while there are plenty of pictures of a multimeter in their manual but nothing about a Meghometer (Megger) - why? Their manual doesn't even mention the word Meghometer (it's implied as an "insulation test") - is this a case of the manual being somehow obscure and misleading? Surely if I saw the picture of a Megger or the magic word:500v!! that surely would had acted as a deterrent - so, why didn't they mentioned it clearly?
I feel like I'm being trapped in a very uncomfortable situation - if I go along with them it looks like I've played into their game like a fool (and a chance of losing a lot more money) - I'll check this whole issue with trading standards again and move from there.
There is a big fat chance I might just say fxxk off to the whole lot (ufh and ProWarm) and use more conventional ways (a trusty radiator).

[charles]

In article <5a7b3948-3aee-4808...@googlegroups.com>,

Talk to Trading Standards. They can act for the consumer against 'big'
business. Certainly they helped me.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[swimm...@yahoo.co.uk]

>
>
>
> Talk to Trading Standards. They can act for the consumer against 'big'
>
> business. Certainly they helped me.
>
>
>
> --
>
> From KT24
>
>
>
> Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

I've tried....it appears Trading Standards don't deal with us directly (not initially) - we need to report via Citizens Advice Bureaux. It looks like there is little chance they are going to consider my case as the system wasn't checked by a pro electrician - the system was running fine so I didn't bother, I was planning to do a complete electrical check once the whole electrical installation was done (not just ufh).
All the electrical stuff installed is working fine - only the electric mat failed - bottom line? Don't trust this stuff anymore - they promise lifetime warranty and one assumes these mat should be very reliable - that's not the case...

[John Rumm]

On 29/06/2013 12:38, swimm...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


> I've tried....it appears Trading Standards don't deal with us
> directly (not initially) - we need to report via Citizens Advice
> Bureaux. It looks like there is little chance they are going to
> consider my case as the system wasn't checked by a pro electrician -
> the system was running fine so I didn't bother, I was planning to do
> a complete electrical check once the whole electrical installation
> was done (not just ufh). All the electrical stuff installed is
> working fine - only the electric mat failed - bottom line? Don't
> trust this stuff anymore - they promise lifetime warranty and one
> assumes these mat should be very reliable - that's not the case...

The "checked by an electrician" argument strikes me as a straw man. I
can't immediately think of anything that one could do in the electrical
installation that could cause the mat to fail in the way you describe.
You could make the electrical installation unsafe etc, but that would
not make it fail after 9 months.

The physical installation on the other hand is far more able to have an
impact - but there is no "registered tiler" angle for an argument there.