Energy pinch?
Andrew Gabriel
forecast for 17:30 today, and the gas suppliers have told power
generation they have to reduce gas consumption. Could be interesting.
Forecast to be even higher demand tomorrow at 17:30.
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
cynic
I had my oil tank filled up yesterday and my generator can easily be
put into operation to run the heating system so I will be able to
watch what happens from a warm house at least.
Dave Liquorice
> I notice we have highest electricity demand of the winter so far
> forecast for 17:30 today, and the gas suppliers have told power
> generation they have to reduce gas consumption. Could be interesting.
> Forecast to be even higher demand tomorrow at 17:30.
Yes I noticed a BBC News website story about the GBA early this
morning. It seems to have vansished now, can't find it browsing or
via search...
With the 24/48hrs notice they should be able to wind up the output of
some coal/oil stations. Still current UK electricity demand is 55GW,
yesterdays late afternoon peak was about 60GW that is high... Wonder
how much margin there is? Now if a big station drops off line like
happened not that long ago it could get cold and dark...
--
Cheers
Dave.
Adrian C
> I notice we have highest electricity demand of the winter so far
> forecast for 17:30 today, and the gas suppliers have told power
> generation they have to reduce gas consumption. Could be interesting.
> Forecast to be even higher demand tomorrow at 17:30.
>
I've got some almost dead AA batteries.
If I chain enough of them up in series and plug them momentarily
backwards into the mains socket, seems I'll be able to help the country
toodle along a bit for half a cycle.
Every little millivolt must help in these desperate times...
--
Adrian 'half-wit' C
Dave Starling
wrote:
> With the 24/48hrs notice they should be able to wind up the output of
> some coal/oil stations. Still current UK electricity demand is 55GW,
> yesterdays late afternoon peak was about 60GW that is high... Wonder
> how much margin there is? Now if a big station drops off line like
> happened not that long ago it could get cold and dark...
>
> --
> Cheers
> Dave.
Does anyone know the coal reserves that are available in the UK?
Hindsight is great but the coal mine closures since 1980 surely must
be looked at as a mistake and not such a success for Mrs Thatcher
after all? Okay at the time gas was cheap and coal wasn't and nobody
could predict what would happen in 2010. Would anyone like to predict
what the situation will be like i 2040?
Dave.
JimK
> Would anyone like to predict
> what the situation will be like i 2040?
>
> Dave.
feckin dire one way or the other
Happy New Year!
JimK
Adrian C
> On Jan 5, 12:22 pm, Dave Starling <dvstarl...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Would anyone like to predict
>> what the situation will be like i 2040?
>>
>> Dave.
>
> feckin dire one way or the other
We need triffids. Now!
--
Adrian C
Fredxx
"JimK" <jk98...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:8b8ef6b5-0cca-4222...@m26g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 5, 12:22 pm, Dave Starling <dvstarl...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Would anyone like to predict
>> what the situation will be like i 2040?
>>
>> Dave.
>
> feckin dire one way or the other
>
I guess very similar to the US. The USA has chosen to import oil rather
than pump more out of their own ground, in fact when oil was at an all time
low, it was being pumped back.
Coal in this country is expensive to extract, but when all the potential
world-wide open cast mining sites have been depleted, with further
mechanisation, further extraction of UK coal may be possible.
Tim W
wibbled on Tuesday 05 January 2010 10:59
> I notice we have highest electricity demand of the winter so far
> forecast for 17:30 today, and the gas suppliers have told power
> generation they have to reduce gas consumption. Could be interesting.
> Forecast to be even higher demand tomorrow at 17:30.
>
Makes you wonder - did you see that Spooks episode where the explosion in
the gas processing plant rendered the government having to try to do a deal
with Elbonistan or somewhere?
Very very foolish making us so dependant on gas... Meanwhile in Kent, some
bunch of idiots keep having a go at Kingsnorth power station (coal/oil). I
bet they are now sitting in their cosy living rooms in front of the TV...
Incidently, just noticed that station is down (or was on Sunday) to half
capacity after an oil fire...
Anyone remember where the National Grid System Warnings and Other Messages
page is - can't seem to find it. It made interesting reading when Sixewell B
went offline.
--
Tim Watts
This space intentionally left blank...
James Salisbury
Harry Bloomfield
I think what was meant was the live data, which I have seen somewhere,
but now cannot find.
--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk
Andrew Gabriel
"Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> writes:
> On Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:59:31 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gabriel wrote:
>
>> I notice we have highest electricity demand of the winter so far
>> forecast for 17:30 today, and the gas suppliers have told power
>> generation they have to reduce gas consumption. Could be interesting.
>> Forecast to be even higher demand tomorrow at 17:30.
>
> Yes I noticed a BBC News website story about the GBA early this
> morning. It seems to have vansished now, can't find it browsing or
> via search...
Just caught end of an interview on 1pm news with reporter asking
a gas spokesman why we only have 8 day's supply of gas, when
Germany has 70 or 90 days or something like that (can't recall).
After the privitisation of the Gas industry, we were down to only
3 days storage capability at one point, and it did get up to 11
days more recently. (Maybe capacity is 11 days, but currently only
8 days left - we used more gas yesterday than we sourced.)
> With the 24/48hrs notice they should be able to wind up the output of
> some coal/oil stations. Still current UK electricity demand is 55GW,
> yesterdays late afternoon peak was about 60GW that is high... Wonder
> how much margin there is? Now if a big station drops off line like
> happened not that long ago it could get cold and dark...
So far, we've been exporting over the interconnects too, which
(to a first approximation) would seem to mean our neighbours
are no better off either.
Tim W
wibbled on Tuesday 05 January 2010 13:23
> Hi,
>
> Have a read of http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/bsp_home.htm
>
> Regards
>
> James
That's the one - ta. Bookmarked it this time...
This is quite interesting too:
http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/bsp.php#generation_by_fuel_type_graph
The Natural Philosopher
> I notice we have highest electricity demand of the winter so far
> forecast for 17:30 today, and the gas suppliers have told power
> generation they have to reduce gas consumption. Could be interesting.
> Forecast to be even higher demand tomorrow at 17:30.
>
The Natural Philosopher
cu meters of logs were delivered yesterday..
Andrew Gabriel
Dave Starling <dvsta...@googlemail.com> writes:
> Does anyone know the coal reserves that are available in the UK?
About 300 years reserves identified and viable (at least, as viable
as the coal we were mining). More reserves become viable if coal prices
take a hike. Our coal has a high sulphur content, so sulphur dioxide
emissions were an issue, which is less true of the coal we now import.
> Hindsight is great but the coal mine closures since 1980 surely must
> be looked at as a mistake and not such a success for Mrs Thatcher
> after all?
Coal industry held the country to ransom more than once, and
no government can let that stand, so it built it's own coffin.
Can you imagine today's youth going down mines to bring it up?
Might get their Nikes dirty...
Probably the only way to mine coal in the UK now would be an
immigrant workforce.
> Okay at the time gas was cheap and coal wasn't and nobody
> could predict what would happen in 2010. Would anyone like to predict
> what the situation will be like i 2040?
I predicted it several years back, but a summary includes the
words Shit Creak, Paddle, (and well before 2040).
Jules
> I've got some almost dead AA batteries.
>
> If I chain enough of them up in series and plug them momentarily
> backwards into the mains socket, seems I'll be able to help the country
> toodle along a bit for half a cycle.
Just make sure that you reverse the polarity of every other battery so
that you get an AC signal out. Feeding DC into the mains would be bad.
Jules
> Probably the only way to mine coal in the UK now would be an
> immigrant workforce.
Robots. Thaaasands of 'em...
> Shit Creak
If that's happening, see a doctor.
Jules
>> feckin dire one way or the other
>>
>
> I guess very similar to the US. The USA has chosen to import oil rather
> than pump more out of their own ground, in fact when oil was at an all time
> low, it was being pumped back.
Coal use is pretty high here in the US, though - I think it might be
something like 50% of the source for power generation, and I think a lot
of it does come from within the country's borders. (I see lots of wibbling
about 'clean' coal-fired plants over here - whilst coal is seen as a
'dirty' fuel, I don't think I've seen anything comparing those
'cleaned-up' plants against the alternatives)
I still see horror stories about how close the US grid is to complete
meltdown, though, so in that respect it's perhaps no different to the UK;
the extra capacity and infrastructure just isn't really there to cope if
something major were to happen.
cheers
Jules
![george [dicegeorge]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjVy3egmWxdo6kgdNwXDn-6EE54MDMuR9kO5wF-DhVhewlzxjNY=s40-c)
george [dicegeorge]
>
> I still see horror stories about how close the US grid is to complete
> meltdown, though, so in that respect it's perhaps no different to the UK;
> the extra capacity and infrastructure just isn't really there to cope if
> something major were to happen.
>
> cheers
>
> Jules
>
since the privatisations energy supply isnt a public service but a
private business
and its aim is to make profits for shareholders,
so putting in excess capacity for the few days of excess demand per
decade due to weather or power station failures isnt economic for them.
[g]
Fredxx
"george [dicegeorge]" <diceg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hhvj01$pc4$2...@energise.enta.net...
In the same way oil companies must keep 90 days of oil in reserve, it would
focus the energy suppliers if they got heavy fines from the regulator for
having insufficient capacity. They might think more than just giving away
CFLs!
The fact they are private business doesn't mean they can't conform to
government policy.
jgharston
> Does anyone know the coal reserves that are available in the UK?
When I toured Drax in 1994 they said they had 18 months supply
of coal on site, to get them through "interuptions in supply".
Remembering back to school chemistry lessons, there's at least
300 years supply of coal in the ground based on use for electricity
generation at 1980 levels. (shows when I went to school :)
JGH
Grimly Curmudgeon
drugs began to take hold. I remember Jules
<jules.rich...@remove.this.gmail.com> saying something like:
>> Shit Creak
>
>If that's happening, see a doctor.
<hands over crowbar>
Here, take one of these in the morning.
Another Dave
Wouldn't make any difference if they were.
Another Dave
pete
> In article <nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@srv1.howhill.co.uk>,
> "Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> writes:
>> On Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:59:31 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gabriel wrote:
>>
>>> I notice we have highest electricity demand of the winter so far
>>> forecast for 17:30 today, and the gas suppliers have told power
>>> generation they have to reduce gas consumption. Could be interesting.
>>> Forecast to be even higher demand tomorrow at 17:30.
>>
>> Yes I noticed a BBC News website story about the GBA early this
>> morning. It seems to have vansished now, can't find it browsing or
>> via search...
>
> Just caught end of an interview on 1pm news with reporter asking
> a gas spokesman why we only have 8 day's supply of gas, when
> Germany has 70 or 90 days or something like that (can't recall).
> After the privitisation of the Gas industry, we were down to only
> 3 days storage capability at one point, and it did get up to 11
> days more recently. (Maybe capacity is 11 days, but currently only
> 8 days left - we used more gas yesterday than we sourced.)
At a guess, I'd say that NIMBY-ism has a part to play. No-one wants
a nasty old gasholder to look at. They'd prefer everyone else runs
out of fuel than to have their view (or worse, their house prices)
affected by something so .... so ... industrial :-)
Andrew Gabriel
Actually, they were contributing 0.6% when I looked this morning.
They never actually manage to contribute what they predict the day
before.
Andrew Gabriel
I have it bookmarked, but it suddenly stopped working about a year ago;
nothing more posted to it... http://www.bmreports.com/bwx_reporting.htm
The Natural Philosopher
Tim W
wibbled on Tuesday 05 January 2010 17:01
> In article <hhve98$1io$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Tim W <t...@dionic.net> writes:
>> Andrew Gabriel <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk>
>> Anyone remember where the National Grid System Warnings and Other
>> Messages page is - can't seem to find it. It made interesting reading
>> when Sixewell B went offline.
>
> I have it bookmarked, but it suddenly stopped working about a year ago;
> nothing more posted to it... http://www.bmreports.com/bwx_reporting.htm
>
Seems to be here now as mentioned a few posts back
http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/bsp_home.htm
Though there's not much history, it s current and appears to be the place
where risk of demand reduction notices might appear, which is usually the
indication that bad things are going down...
Andrew Gabriel
Tim W <t...@dionic.net> writes:
> Andrew Gabriel <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk>
> wibbled on Tuesday 05 January 2010 17:01
>
>> In article <hhve98$1io$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>> Tim W <t...@dionic.net> writes:
>>> Andrew Gabriel <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk>
>
>>> Anyone remember where the National Grid System Warnings and Other
>>> Messages page is - can't seem to find it. It made interesting reading
>>> when Sixewell B went offline.
>>
>> I have it bookmarked, but it suddenly stopped working about a year ago;
>> nothing more posted to it... http://www.bmreports.com/bwx_reporting.htm
>>
>
> Seems to be here now as mentioned a few posts back
>
> http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/bsp_home.htm
>
> Though there's not much history, it s current and appears to be the place
> where risk of demand reduction notices might appear, which is usually the
> indication that bad things are going down...
I think that's equally defunct. The history conks out same time the
other site stopped reporting. The rest of that page has always looked
believable.
Bruce
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
>In article <b52cd4d2-5b10-4132...@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
> Dave Starling <dvsta...@googlemail.com> writes:
>> Does anyone know the coal reserves that are available in the UK?
>
>About 300 years reserves identified and viable (at least, as viable
>as the coal we were mining). More reserves become viable if coal prices
>take a hike. Our coal has a high sulphur content, so sulphur dioxide
>emissions were an issue, which is less true of the coal we now import.
>
>> Hindsight is great but the coal mine closures since 1980 surely must
>> be looked at as a mistake and not such a success for Mrs Thatcher
>> after all?
>
>Coal industry held the country to ransom more than once, and
>no government can let that stand, so it built it's own coffin.
>Can you imagine today's youth going down mines to bring it up?
>Might get their Nikes dirty...
>
>Probably the only way to mine coal in the UK now would be an
>immigrant workforce.
If we are going to return to coal, opencast mining is the way to go.
Bruce
We're talking about much greater volumes of gas storage than a few old
gasholders. We're talking about underground caverns.
There's one at Killingholme on the Humber Estuary, and that's about
it. The geology of that area is perfect for constructing much more
underground storage, but none of the gas companies wants to spend the
money and the government is powerless to compel or even encourage them
to invest.
So we have the lowest gas reserves, in terms of days, of any major
European country that depends on gas.
It's madness, sheer madness. But that's what happens when you
privatise public utilities and fail to put in place a mechanism for
ensuring that obligations towards security of supply are met.
The privatised electricity industry is in an equally bad state, with
capacity likely to fall well short of demand starting around 2014
because of the ongoing closure programme for existing nuclear power
stations (life expired) and the remaining non-FGD* fitted coal fired
stations (expiry of EU licence to operate). There was a half-arsed
plan to fill the gap with further new gas- and coal-fired stations but
this has stalled with Kingsnorth being cancelled altogether.
*FGD = flue gas desulphurisation
Bruce
>Very very foolish making us so dependant on gas... Meanwhile in Kent, some
>bunch of idiots keep having a go at Kingsnorth power station (coal/oil). I
>bet they are now sitting in their cosy living rooms in front of the TV...
>Incidently, just noticed that station is down (or was on Sunday) to half
>capacity after an oil fire...
The proposed new coal-fired power station at Kingsnorth has been
cancelled. The government would like us to believe that it is merely
slightly delayed, but there is no chance of it going ahead in the
foreseeable future.
Jules
Do they have heaters in them to keep the blades from icing up? In which
case, do they actually have a negative effect when not turning in colder
weather?
Jules
>>At a guess, I'd say that NIMBY-ism has a part to play. No-one wants
>>a nasty old gasholder to look at. They'd prefer everyone else runs
>>out of fuel than to have their view (or worse, their house prices)
>>affected by something so .... so ... industrial :-)
>
> We're talking about much greater volumes of gas storage than a few old
> gasholders. We're talking about underground caverns.
Block off the channel tunnel at either end and use that during the winter.
It's not like they can reliably run trains through it at this time of
year anyway ;-)
Fredxx
"Bruce" <docne...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1a27k5hitlqtt516c...@4ax.com...
>
> There's one at Killingholme on the Humber Estuary, and that's about
> it. The geology of that area is perfect for constructing much more
> underground storage, but none of the gas companies wants to spend the
> money and the government is powerless to compel or even encourage them
> to invest.
>
Cobblers, the government, if it had a will, could do anything and everything
it wished. It's all a question of priority and media attention.
The companies could also liquefy natural gas (LNG), in the same state it's
transported around the world in LNG tankers.
Andrew Gabriel
Bruce <docne...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> If we are going to return to coal, opencast mining is the way to go.
We don't get to choose, nature does. We do have some opencast mining,
but mostly our coal has to be deep mined.
The Wikipedia article "History of coal mining" says:
"There are proposals to re-open several deep pits with Russian capital,
owing to the soaring price of the conmmodity."
This was added on 14 April 2008, but no reference is given.
The Natural Philosopher
surface.
Adam Aglionby
> On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 16:16:42 GMT, pete <no-...@unknown.com> wrote:
> >On Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:34:35 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gabriel wrote:
> >> Just caught end of an interview on 1pm news with reporter asking
> >> a gas spokesman why we only have 8 day's supply of gas, when
> >> Germany has 70 or 90 days or something like that (can't recall).
> >> After the privitisation of the Gas industry, we were down to only
> >> 3 days storage capability at one point, and it did get up to 11
> >> days more recently. (Maybe capacity is 11 days, but currently only
> >> 8 days left - we used more gas yesterday than we sourced.)
>
> >At a guess, I'd say that NIMBY-ism has a part to play. No-one wants
> >a nasty old gasholder to look at. They'd prefer everyone else runs
> >out of fuel than to have their view (or worse, their house prices)
> >affected by something so .... so ... industrial :-)
>
> We're talking about much greater volumes of gas storage than a few old
> gasholders. We're talking about underground caverns.
Is the replacement for gasholders not pressurising it in the new
plastic mains?
Cheers
Adam
Bruce
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
>In article <mq17k554fkmtqd3vn...@4ax.com>,
> Bruce <docne...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> If we are going to return to coal, opencast mining is the way to go.
>
>We don't get to choose, nature does. We do have some opencast mining,
>but mostly our coal has to be deep mined.
Not true. We have huge reserves that could be much more cheaply
extracted by opencast methods, in south Wales, Northumberland and
Yorkshire.
Alas, successive governments have always taken note of public and NUM
opposition to opencast mining - the latter because the NUM was not the
union of choice for opencast workers.
Dave
> In article <b52cd4d2-5b10-4132...@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
> Dave Starling <dvsta...@googlemail.com> writes:
>> Does anyone know the coal reserves that are available in the UK?
>
> About 300 years reserves identified and viable (at least, as viable
> as the coal we were mining). More reserves become viable if coal prices
> take a hike. Our coal has a high sulphur content, so sulphur dioxide
> emissions were an issue, which is less true of the coal we now import.
>
>> Hindsight is great but the coal mine closures since 1980 surely must
>> be looked at as a mistake and not such a success for Mrs Thatcher
>> after all?
>
> Coal industry held the country to ransom more than once, and
> no government can let that stand, so it built it's own coffin.
No. It was down to one misguided man. Even other union leaders disagreed
with what he was doing.
Dave
js.b1
at the terminals.
That might actually be the bulk (50%+) of our storage in which case it
is nearly a single point of failure to a Buncastle-II.
Bruce
wrote:
I thought that most of the storage was in an underground cavern at
Killingholme, on the Humber Estuary. But a little research has shown
that this cavern stores LPG, not natural gas.
In 2007, the news agency Reuters published a survey of existing and
proposed natural gas storage schemes - see link below.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKL1655613620070821
This would be very useful indeed if updated to 2010, but I couldn't
find an update.
Bruce
<ledl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 5 Jan, 19:01, Bruce <docnews2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 16:16:42 GMT, pete <no-...@unknown.com> wrote:
>> >On Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:34:35 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gabriel wrote:
>> >> Just caught end of an interview on 1pm news with reporter asking
>> >> a gas spokesman why we only have 8 day's supply of gas, when
>> >> Germany has 70 or 90 days or something like that (can't recall).
>> >> After the privitisation of the Gas industry, we were down to only
>> >> 3 days storage capability at one point, and it did get up to 11
>> >> days more recently. (Maybe capacity is 11 days, but currently only
>> >> 8 days left - we used more gas yesterday than we sourced.)
>>
>> >At a guess, I'd say that NIMBY-ism has a part to play. No-one wants
>> >a nasty old gasholder to look at. They'd prefer everyone else runs
>> >out of fuel than to have their view (or worse, their house prices)
>> >affected by something so .... so ... industrial :-)
>>
>> We're talking about much greater volumes of gas storage than a few old
>> gasholders. �We're talking about underground caverns.
>
>Is the replacement for gasholders not pressurising it in the new
>plastic mains?
Is that safe?
dennis@home
"Dave" <dave...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:q-GdnddqhLeVMd7W...@bt.com...
> No. It was down to one misguided man. Even other union leaders disagreed
> with what he was doing.
They didn't have to do what scargill told them to do.
He may have provided the plan to destroy the coal industry but he didn't
carry it out on his own.
Dave
Dave
Dave
Mmmmmm
Dave
Dave
If the government says yes, how can we argue any different. It isn't
like we live in democracy any more :-((
Dave
Adam Aglionby
Guess as long as it dosen`t leak....
Unlikely to I guess section of 450mm yellow pipe they buried in front
street was settled in pea gravel and then a foot of ready mix before
tarmac on top, going to be a pain to get to again. Plastic pipe has
expected life of 80 years apparently.
Gasometers replaced by kilometers of highly pressurised pipe below
your feet so been told.
Cheers
Adam
F
> It's madness, sheer madness. But that's what happens when you
> privatise public utilities and fail to put in place a mechanism for
> ensuring that obligations towards security of supply are met.
No, it's what happens when you flog off the contents of North Sea oil
and gas fields just as fast as you can rather than leave them where they
are for as long as possible.
Bit like Gordon (bless!) flogging off all the gold at the bottom of the
market...
--
F
Matty F
> On Jan 5, 11:43 am, "Dave Liquorice" <allsortsnotthis...@howhill.com>
> wrote:
>
> > With the 24/48hrs notice they should be able to wind up the output of
> > some coal/oil stations. Still current UK electricity demand is 55GW,
> > yesterdays late afternoon peak was about 60GW that is high... Wonder
> > how much margin there is? Now if a big station drops off line like
> > happened not that long ago it could get cold and dark...
>
> > --
> > Cheers
> > Dave.
>
> Does anyone know the coal reserves that are available in the UK?
> be looked at as a mistake and not such a success for Mrs Thatcher
> could predict what would happen in 2010. Would anyone like to predict
> what the situation will be like i 2040?
We've got loads of coal here in New Zealand - more than we can use in
thousands of years. Would you like some?
P.S. what happened to Global Warming?
Jules
> P.S. what happened to Global Warming?
It's taking a rest while the journos have something else to be
sensationalist about :-)
Tim Streater
As the klod said on the radio this morning, don't confuse climate
(mid-long term situation) with the weather (day-to-day situation).
--
Tim
"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines
imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"
Bill of Rights 1689
The Natural Philosopher
>
> P.S. what happened to Global Warming?
Probably the root cause of all this. We've been messing with arctic
temperatures, and its come across to complain.
One thing that is highly perdictable about global warming is that more
extreme events become more probable.
Higher winds, more rain, more snow. More heatwaves, more drought, more
hurricanes.
Matty F
wrote:
We're not having extreme events or warming in NZ:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10618660
"However, a WMO prediction that 2009 would be the warmest year on
record was not borne out in New Zealand, which saw slightly cooler
than average temperatures.
New Zealand also missed out on much of the extreme weather which last
year caused devastating floods, severe droughts, and storms in many
parts of the world."
F
> "However, a WMO prediction that 2009 would be the warmest year on
> record was not borne out in New Zealand, which saw slightly cooler
> than average temperatures.
> New Zealand also missed out on much of the extreme weather which last
> year caused devastating floods, severe droughts, and storms in many
> parts of the world."
In the same way that we get the wrong sort of snow, you've obviously got
the wrong sort of politicians. Ours find ways to explain everything with
the same two words: 'global warming'.
--
F
dennis@home
"Tim Streater" <timst...@waitrose.com> wrote in message
news:lrednbk0HaYy-tnW...@brightview.co.uk...
> As the klod said on the radio this morning, don't confuse climate
> (mid-long term situation) with the weather (day-to-day situation).
No they are completely different..
different mathematical models..
different starting conditions..
different chaotic conditions..
same errors.
Bruce
<timst...@waitrose.com> wrote:
>On 06/01/2010 02:25, Matty F wrote:
>> We've got loads of coal here in New Zealand - more than we can use in
>> thousands of years. Would you like some?
>> P.S. what happened to Global Warming?
>
>As the klod said on the radio this morning, don't confuse climate
>(mid-long term situation) with the weather (day-to-day situation).
Perhaps he should have said, don't confuse the weather forecasters'
near-complete inability to predict the weather for mere hours or days
ahead with the absolute, definite concrete 100% certainty of their
predictions of human-induced climate change over the coming decades
and centuries.
Bruce
In that case, perhaps the weather forecasters should explain why they
confidently predicted that this winter would be one of the mildest on
record, but it has turned out to be one of the coldest for a century.
If they cannot reliably predict hours, days, weeks or several months
ahead, how is it that their predictions of global disaster in the next
centuries due to human-induced climate change are presented as a
certainty?
Bruce
It is lean mix concrete which is reasonably easy to break out with a
pickaxe and a trivial job with a light breaker.
>Gasometers replaced by kilometers of highly pressurised pipe below
>your feet so been told.
I presume that doesn't mean that the distribution mains leading to our
gas meters are now at some hugely increased pressure?
Please say it isn't so?!?
The Natural Philosopher
The Natural Philosopher
A good book on chaos theory helps.
James Salisbury
google line pack, and have a look at
http://marketinformation.natgrid.co.uk/gas/frmPrevalingView.aspx
george [dicegeorge]
one theory is that as we chop down the forests and burn thousands of
years worth of oil and coal
the gulf stream will change direction
and stop its warming effect on britain
which would mean britain getting colder
whilst global average temperature rises.
[g]
Adam Aglionby
> Bruce wrote:
> > On Tue, 5 Jan 2010 15:51:22 -0800 (PST), Adam Aglionby
Thanks for that,didn`t know correct search term, found brief
explanation from Northern Gas
http://www.northerngasnetworks.co.uk/cms/37.html
Previous explanation came from one of crew laying previously mentioned
pipe, if only every road crew was as fast as those guys.
The lean mix concrete has made an excellent filler, no sag or bumps
where the line was put in.
Cheers
Adam
news0...@moo.uklinux.net
> If they cannot reliably predict hours, days, weeks or several months
> ahead, how is it that their predictions of global disaster in the next
> centuries due to human-induced climate change are presented as a
> certainty?
Feel free to study the basic scientific principles, and
find out. Although you could always ask someone already
trained in the discipline, or find some sort of authoritative
report on the subject somewhere, preferrably written by
a group of international experts -- it's got to be worth a
try -- do you really want to educate yourself all the way
to PhD level in Climate Science?
#Paul
Dave Liquorice
> When I toured Drax in 1994 they said they had 18 months supply
> of coal on site, to get them through "interuptions in supply".
I sort of doubted that but unless my maths has gone arry it's less
than a 300 m cube of coal.
300x300x300 = 27 million cu m.
Coal is about 800 kg/cu m so thats 21.6 million tonnes of coal.
Drax can burn 36,000 tonnes a day flat out.
36,000 * (365 * 1.5) = 19.7 million tonnes.
So a heap 15 m high and 1400 m square will hold it (and more). Not
that big really.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Dave Liquorice
> Do they have heaters in them to keep the blades from icing up?
Not that I'm aware of. I am aware of large lumps of ice been flung
considerable distances from them though.
They do have to control icing as it will unbalance 'em but I think
they achieve that with water repellant surafces and deicing
chemicals.
--
Cheers
Dave.
andrew
> Is the replacement for gasholders not pressurising it in the new
> plastic mains?
>
No it's in the steel 1m mains which IIRC run at 500psi+-
AJH
Adrian C
> On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 13:48:48 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> And not a windmill turning anywhere.
>
> Do they have heaters in them to keep the blades from icing up? In which
> case, do they actually have a negative effect when not turning in colder
> weather?
>
The resistance of these standing structures to the wind pushes against
the revolution of the planet and everyones clocks lose a second or so of
time. Allegedly.
--
Adrian C
Tony Bryer
> P.S. what happened to Global Warming?
On loan to us - only 23C today, but then it's forecast 28, 36, 38,
31, 38, 32. November's average was way higher than the long term
average 27.1/21.9, December a little higher 25.9/24.2.
--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on' Melbourne, Australia
www.superbeam.co.uk www.superbeam.com www.greentram.com
Dave Osborne
> Dave Starling wrote:
>> Does anyone know the coal reserves that are available in the UK?
>
> of coal on site, to get them through "interuptions in supply".
>
When I visited Didcot a couple of years ago, they said that when they
were run by the CEGB they had 6 months supply of coal. Nowadays, the
operational people consider themselves lucky if they have 6 weeks supply
and they have been as low as 6 days supply.
I was also told that NPower consider themselves to be an energy trading
company not an electricity generating company. They trade in energy and
will happily sell on the coal they have (both futures and if necessary,
physical stock) and gas futures if it is more profitable to do so than
to generate electricity. Also, if they didn't have an absolute
obligation to supply the national grid with electricity, they would
happily gradually shut down generation* rather than make electricity at
either a loss or insufficient profit cf selling off their raw materials.
*Didcot A has 4 500MW units coal/gas co-fired and Didcot B has two 680MW
units combined cycle i.e. gas-fired, so the whole plant has 6-units of
generation capacity A1, A2, A3, A4, B1, B2 which may be independently
taken on- or off- line.
Dave Osborne
>
> At a guess, I'd say that NIMBY-ism has a part to play. No-one wants
> a nasty old gasholder to look at.
I believe that in modern terms, the primary use of a gasholder or
gasometer is not for storing gas, rather is used to ensure that the
local pressure remains within an acceptable range. In storage terms, it
is at best a local temporary buffer.
Gas is stored underground, in transmission pipelines at elevated
pressure (line packing)and as LNG (iquified natural gas).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasometer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_storage#Pipeline_Capacity
Dave Liquorice
>> So a heap 15 m high and 1400 m square will hold it (and more). Not
>> that big really.
>
> You will never make a politician.
Good, slimy toads the lot of 'em.
> How many football pitches is that?
How big is a "football pitch"? They are all different, length is
between 100 to 130 yards and width 50 to 100 yards. Though since 2008
the IFAB has set a pitch size of 105m x 68m (115 x 74 yds) for A
internationals.
So a 1400 x 1400m area is 274 and 1/2 "standard" football pitches.
--
Cheers
Dave.
PJ
;-)
Jules
> or find some sort of authoritative report on the subject somewhere,
> preferrably written by a group of international experts
Yes, good luck with that. It seems for every such report there's another
claiming the exact opposite. Ditto for reports on solutions to any of
the perceived problems. Add into that the spin and general backstabbing
and counter-claiming that goes on, and the conclusion that I'm leaning
toward is that nobody "authoritative" knows what the fuck they're
talking about :-(
Bruce
Complete bollocks.
The only way the climate change industry gets away with making
concrete long term predictions - predictions that have no more chance
of being accurate than tomorrow's or next week's weather forecast - is
that they know that no-one will be able to say "You got it hopelessly
wrong!" until long after those doing the predicting are dead.
Bruce
<ledl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>The lean mix concrete has made an excellent filler, no sag or bumps
>where the line was put in.
It took years for this very sensible idea to be adopted.
Previously, the requirement was to reinstate the excavated trench with
granular materials, compacted in layers, followed by sub-base and
asphalt. But it was almost always very badly done, such that remedial
work was needed after a few months.
geoff
--
geoff
geoff
<diceg...@hotmail.com> writes
>The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> Matty F wrote:
>>>
>>> P.S. what happened to Global Warming?
>> Probably the root cause of all this. We've been messing with arctic
>>temperatures, and its come across to complain.
>> One thing that is highly perdictable about global warming is that
>>more extreme events become more probable.
>> Higher winds, more rain, more snow. More heatwaves, more drought,
>>more hurricanes.
>Global warming maybe should have been called Global Weather Collapse,
>one theory is that as we chop down the forests and burn thousands of
>years worth of oil and coal
>the gulf stream will change direction
It won't change direction, it will just stop
>and stop its warming effect on britain
>which would mean britain getting colder
>whilst global average temperature rises.
>
>[g]
--
geoff
Grimly Curmudgeon
drugs began to take hold. I remember Adrian C <em...@here.invalid>
saying something like:
>> Do they have heaters in them to keep the blades from icing up? In which
>> case, do they actually have a negative effect when not turning in colder
>> weather?
>>
>
>The resistance of these standing structures to the wind pushes against
>the revolution of the planet and everyones clocks lose a second or so of
>time. Allegedly.
But only if the moon's in the right phase, so I've been told.
Fredxx
"geoff" <ra...@kateda.org> wrote in message
news:DbzVnOcq...@demon.co.uk...
> In message <hi20g1$1gd5$3...@energise.enta.net>, "george [dicegeorge]"
> <diceg...@hotmail.com> writes
>>The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> Matty F wrote:
>>>>
>>>> P.S. what happened to Global Warming?
>>> Probably the root cause of all this. We've been messing with arctic
>>> temperatures, and its come across to complain.
>>> One thing that is highly perdictable about global warming is that more
>>> extreme events become more probable.
>>> Higher winds, more rain, more snow. More heatwaves, more drought, more
>>> hurricanes.
>>Global warming maybe should have been called Global Weather Collapse,
>>one theory is that as we chop down the forests and burn thousands of years
>>worth of oil and coal
>>the gulf stream will change direction
>
> It won't change direction, it will just stop
>
And has done so many times in the past.
js.b1
> js.b1 wrote:
> > Eh? We do have LNG storage, massive tanks insulated with polystyrene
> > at the terminals.
>
> > That might actually be the bulk (50%+) of our storage in which case it
> > is nearly a single point of failure to a Buncastle-II.
>
> And your point was?
We import 50% of our gas.
In so doing we expose ourselves to significant price volatility from
demand-supply imbalance and speculation.
We have limited gas storage capability.
Thereby magnifying volatility due to inability to store sufficient gas
to buffer demand without industry being penalised.
We do import some gas via LNG tanker with high density (liquid)
storage via vast terminal tanks.
A solution to storage limitations would be to increase the number of
such tanks - the problem is if one tank goes (bang) the rest could do
likewise (single point of failure) unless geographically dispersed
(which introduces risk of stuck safety interlocks, human error etc
like Buncastle).
Hence I suspect they prefer the geographically distributed steel HP
pipeline network, they can increase the pressure in that and
essentially "bulkhead" areas off should there be a leakage. A leakage
there might be less catastrophic in that it is a gaseous leak rather
than liquefied leak from LNG bulk tanks (essentially a fuel-air bomb).
Andrew Gabriel
Just spoke with my father in France. They're very tight on
electricity - everyone being asked not to run anything power
consuming between midday and 6pm (IIRC) such as washing
machines, which can be run at another time.
Also, they've run out of salt. Apparently, they import it
from England!
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
Tim W
wibbled on Friday 08 January 2010 00:41
> I see another plea for more gas today.
>
> Just spoke with my father in France. They're very tight on
> electricity - everyone being asked not to run anything power
> consuming between midday and 6pm (IIRC) such as washing
> machines, which can be run at another time.
>
> Also, they've run out of salt. Apparently, they import it
> from England!
>
Also I noticed that we seem to be exporting electricity to France at a rate
of about 2GW most of the time - so much for all the stories about importing
cheap french nuclear power.
--
Tim Watts
You know you need more insulation when the snow blanket on the roof makes
the house 3 degrees warmer...
Andy Burns
> Also I noticed that we seem to be exporting electricity to France at a rate
> of about 2GW most of the time - so much for all the stories about importing
> cheap french nuclear power.
We've been net importing gas for the last 6 weeks
Mike Lane
> Andrew Gabriel <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk>
> wibbled on Friday 08 January 2010 00:41
>
>> I see another plea for more gas today.
>>
>> Just spoke with my father in France. They're very tight on
>> electricity - everyone being asked not to run anything power
>> consuming between midday and 6pm (IIRC) such as washing
>> machines, which can be run at another time.
>>
>> Also, they've run out of salt. Apparently, they import it
>> from England!
>>
>
> Also I noticed that we seem to be exporting electricity to France at a rate
> of about 2GW most of the time - so much for all the stories about importing
> cheap french nuclear power.
>
>
At the moment (9.30 am) it's the reverse - 1.5GW France to GB.
--
Mike Lane
UK North Yorkshire
email: mike_lane at mac dot com
Tim W
wibbled on Friday 08 January 2010 09:15
Curious. What happened to all the french nukes that re supposed to ensure a
bountiful supply of electricity?
Anyway, quite surprised someone is more crap than us(!)
Jethro
> "Bruce" <docnews2...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1a27k5hitlqtt516c...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > There's one at Killingholme on the Humber Estuary, and that's about
> > it. The geology of that area is perfect for constructing much more
> > underground storage, but none of the gas companies wants to spend the
> > money and the government is powerless to compel or even encourage them
> > to invest.
>
> Cobblers, the government, if it had a will, could do anything and everything
> it wished. It's all a question of priority and media attention.
Exactly. In the past few years, I have developed a wonderful technique
for getting doom-sayers to STFU ... it's called "If it's *that*
important, they'd -" and you can fill in the blanks.
If it was *that* important to recycle waste, we'd all be able to
compost our waste and sell it to the coucil to collect for
agriculture.
What's that ? They don't ? Can't be *that* important can it ?
I've noticed this works particularly well with canvassing politicians.
The more they try and insist that something is "the most serious
threat to the planet", the more you can point out the total lack of
any movement on their part.
>
> The companies could also liquefy natural gas (LNG), in the same state it's
> transported around the world in LNG tankers.
Liquifying LNG is a slow process ... ISTR from my days at British gas
that to liquify the gas takes 4-5 times as long as it does to *use*
it. So a days worth of gas from an LNG tank takes 4-5 days to get put
back ... BG used to buy lots of gas in summer (when it's cheaper) and
liquify it. But that was when it was a public utility, not a piggy
bank.
Jethro
> On Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:43:37 -0800 (PST), Adam Aglionby
>
>
>
>
>
> <ledli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On 5 Jan, 19:01, Bruce <docnews2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 16:16:42 GMT, pete <no-...@unknown.com> wrote:
> >> >On Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:34:35 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gabriel wrote:
> >> >> Just caught end of an interview on 1pm news with reporter asking
> >> >> a gas spokesman why we only have 8 day's supply of gas, when
> >> >> Germany has 70 or 90 days or something like that (can't recall).
> >> >> After the privitisation of the Gas industry, we were down to only
> >> >> 3 days storage capability at one point, and it did get up to 11
> >> >> days more recently. (Maybe capacity is 11 days, but currently only
> >> >> 8 days left - we used more gas yesterday than we sourced.)
>
> >> >out of fuel than to have their view (or worse, their house prices)
> >> >affected by something so .... so ... industrial :-)
>
> >> We're talking about much greater volumes of gas storage than a few old
> >> gasholders. We're talking about underground caverns.
>
> >plastic mains?
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
When I worked at BG they were renewing the national grid to 75Bar
working (c 1025 psi) ... the process of increasing the pressure to
increase capacity is called "linepack". However the compressors used
(mainly RR RB211) could use more gas in a day than a small town in a
month ...
They use to teach firefighting techniques for dealing with blowouts at
400m, as that's how far a 75bar flame gets shot.
Adam Aglionby
Jumbo Jet engine for compressor, bloomin `eck!
Anyone know what the scheme is with a gas pipeline and large
`compressor` currently proposed fro East Fortune in East Lothian?
AFAIR it means an exclusion zone for new housing around the plant
because of ,er, non passive failure risk.
Cheers
Adam
Jethro
When I worked there, there were 12 compressor installations, all of
which had multi-engine setups. Either RB211 or Avon-something. They
ran of the inline gas, so could run as long as needed, they were
remotely controlled (by a Ferrati Argus computer, with 128Kb ferrite
core storage !!!!!!) and a *lot* of money & brain power went into a
simulation suite which tried to minimise their use ... the trick was
to balance the demand with the specific NS oil field which could feed
it best (Either Scotland or East Anglia).
When I worked there, there was a process which started with a Met
Office Telex, which triggered an autorun of the demand profiling
suite, which then fed into the contract-optimisation suite which
worked out teh best strategy for that days gas purchase, as each
control with each oil rig was unique, with max/mins, shutdown days etc
etc ... The whole process was very securely managed, as each contract
was negotiatied in secret, to prevent the oil companies colluding ...
>
> Anyone know what the scheme is with a gas pipeline and large
> `compressor` currently proposed fro East Fortune in East Lothian?
>
> AFAIR it means an exclusion zone for new housing around the plant
> because of ,er, non passive failure risk.
>
> Cheers
> Adam
>
>
>
> >could use more gas in a day than a small town in a
> > month ...
>
> > They use to teach firefighting techniques for dealing with blowouts at
> > 400m, as that's how far a 75bar flame gets shot.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Andrew Gabriel
Jethro <jeth...@hotmail.com> writes:
> Liquifying LNG is a slow process ... ISTR from my days at British gas
> that to liquify the gas takes 4-5 times as long as it does to *use*
> it. So a days worth of gas from an LNG tank takes 4-5 days to get put
> back ... BG used to buy lots of gas in summer (when it's cheaper) and
> liquify it. But that was when it was a public utility, not a piggy
> bank.
Liquifying LNG is also very expensive in energy consumption.
The estimated cost for liquifaction and transport of LNG across
the sea in tankers is 25-30% of the original gas mined.
If you worry about carbon emissions, that's significantly worse
than using our own gas, and significantly reduces the gap between
using LNG and using coal.
Andrew Gabriel
Not sure where you're read this, but you have it upside down.
At 9:30am (settlement period 19), we were shipping 1.54GW to France.
For last several days, we've mostly shipped 2.05 GW to France (which
I think is the limit of the interconnect). Around about 6pm each day,
it reduces and even flips back slightly, to 0.258 GW imported from
France for about an hour yesterday, for example.
dennis@home
"Adam Aglionby" <ledl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:20f041b8-d2b3-40c8...@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>
> Jumbo Jet engine for compressor, bloomin `eck!
I wouldn't want to fly with one of those engines pushing the plane.
You wouldn't get far on a wing full of natural gas.
djc
>
> Anyway, quite surprised someone is more crap than us(!)
Oh yes. such as
<http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/5736205/__Etten-Leur_strooit_badzout__.html>
Mike Lane
Yes you are right - sorry. I think I can see why I misread the information
I got it here:
http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Electricity/Data/Realtime/Demand/Demand60.htm
At the moment it shows on my browser:
France to Great Britain : -
1208MW
09/01/2010 09:30:00 GMT
I can see now there is a minus sign before the figure 1208 MW but on my
browser it is placed on the line above (as I have shown). Looking with
FireFox it shows correctly -1208MW
It could easily confuse a stupid person (to quote Pete and Dud) :-)