Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Euro cylinder locks: recommendation
88 views
Skip to first unread message
F
Sep 25, 2012, 7:15:44 AM9/25/12
to
We have six doors with reasonably old and vulnerable Euro cylinder locks
so I'm considering fitting anti-snap locks.
Anyone care to recommend a brand and/or supplier?
--
F
so I'm considering fitting anti-snap locks.
Anyone care to recommend a brand and/or supplier?
--
F
Tim Watts
Sep 25, 2012, 7:39:34 AM9/25/12
to
to snapping and resistance to bump-keying.
--
Tim Watts
Andy Cap
Sep 25, 2012, 8:24:48 AM9/25/12
to
about the issues and they sell Yale locks.
http://www.handlestore.com/category/Cylinder-Door-Locks/0/
Andy C
fred
Sep 25, 2012, 11:54:32 AM9/25/12
to
In article <e8adnWEi0P7CD_zN...@brightview.co.uk>, F
<news@nowhere.?> writes
If wooden, fit bolt through cylinder guards (aka security escutcheons)
instead then they don't have anything to torque.
If plastic you can get more secure handles that act as a cylinder guard
but don't expect a plastic door to hold back anyone for too long.
The final answer is not to fit euro unless you absolutely have to.
For cylinder recommendations, have a look back on google groups, euro
cylinders have been discussed quite a few times in the last few mths.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .
<news@nowhere.?> writes
>We have six doors with reasonably old and vulnerable Euro cylinder locks
>so I'm considering fitting anti-snap locks.
>
>Anyone care to recommend a brand and/or supplier?
>
Plastic or wooden doors?
>so I'm considering fitting anti-snap locks.
>
>Anyone care to recommend a brand and/or supplier?
>
If wooden, fit bolt through cylinder guards (aka security escutcheons)
instead then they don't have anything to torque.
If plastic you can get more secure handles that act as a cylinder guard
but don't expect a plastic door to hold back anyone for too long.
The final answer is not to fit euro unless you absolutely have to.
For cylinder recommendations, have a look back on google groups, euro
cylinders have been discussed quite a few times in the last few mths.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .
zaax
Sep 25, 2012, 1:14:42 PM9/25/12
to
PeterC
Sep 25, 2012, 1:31:42 PM9/25/12
to
delivery and I managed to get the e-bay price even though I'd rung up.
http://shop.windowrepairshop.co.uk/epages/es115683.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/es115683_shop/Products/%22Security%20Door%20Cylinder%20Lock%22/SubProducts/%22C47%20ZERO%22
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway
dennis@home
Sep 25, 2012, 2:36:51 PM9/25/12
to
"F" <news@nowhere> wrote in message
news:e8adnWEi0P7CD_zN...@brightview.co.uk...
> We have six doors with reasonably old and vulnerable Euro cylinder locks
> so I'm considering fitting anti-snap locks.
>
> Anyone care to recommend a brand and/or supplier?
http://www.abs-secure.co.uk/
> so I'm considering fitting anti-snap locks.
>
> Anyone care to recommend a brand and/or supplier?
Ten pins, magnetic anti bump pin, snap it off and you can't get to the
mechanism from the outside.
Easier to break the door, supposedly.
There are youtube videos of them being picked, but they take longer than the
other videos.
~£30 a lock.
Hugo Nebula
Sep 25, 2012, 6:03:11 PM9/25/12
to
[Default] On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 12:15:44 +0100, a certain chimpanzee, F
I bought one from uk-locks.co.uk recently. I suppose only time will
tell if it's really secure.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have I strayed"?
tell if it's really secure.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have I strayed"?
dennis@home
Sep 25, 2012, 6:16:24 PM9/25/12
to
"Hugo Nebula" <ab...@local.host> wrote in message
news:1fa468dvmtn8in8m3...@4ax.com...
You drive a screw into the slot and pull the lock out with a claw hammer,
you can then rotate the cam to open the door.
About 30 seconds, which is about twice as long as snapping a cheap lock.
Percy
Sep 26, 2012, 4:07:10 AM9/26/12
to
On Tue, 25 Sep 2012, "dennis@home" writ:
>
>
>"F" <news@nowhere> wrote in message
>news:e8adnWEi0P7CD_zN...@brightview.co.uk...
>> We have six doors with reasonably old and vulnerable Euro cylinder
>>locks so I'm considering fitting anti-snap locks.
>>
>> Anyone care to recommend a brand and/or supplier?
>
>http://www.abs-secure.co.uk/
>
>Ten pins, magnetic anti bump pin, snap it off and you can't get to the
>mechanism from the outside.
5 pins each side.
--
P
>
>
>"F" <news@nowhere> wrote in message
>news:e8adnWEi0P7CD_zN...@brightview.co.uk...
>> We have six doors with reasonably old and vulnerable Euro cylinder
>>locks so I'm considering fitting anti-snap locks.
>>
>> Anyone care to recommend a brand and/or supplier?
>
>http://www.abs-secure.co.uk/
>
>Ten pins, magnetic anti bump pin, snap it off and you can't get to the
>mechanism from the outside.
--
P
Nospam
Sep 26, 2012, 4:58:22 AM9/26/12
to
On 25/09/2012 12:15, F wrote:
the mutt's wotsits and the service was good. I got all the locks
keyed-alike so only need one key - that was worth the small extra cost.
dennis@home
Sep 26, 2012, 7:37:02 AM9/26/12
to
"Percy" <Pe...@no.chance> wrote in message news:$UlRiQJu...@0.0.0.0...
dennis@home
Sep 26, 2012, 7:55:46 AM9/26/12
to
"Nospam" <Nom...@hursley.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:acfude...@mid.individual.net...
norm for them.
However I don't see what stops you driving a screw into the lock and pulling
half the lock out.
Or what stops you moving the locking cam once you have taken the front half
of the lock off.
Percy
Sep 26, 2012, 8:09:12 AM9/26/12
to
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, "dennis@home" writ:
Then why not say what you meant?
--
P
--
P
Phamer
Sep 26, 2012, 8:29:50 AM9/26/12
to
Wrong! 9 pins.
--
Phamer
If the bird of peace is the dove, the bird of love must be the swallow!
Phamer
Sep 26, 2012, 8:30:45 AM9/26/12
to
Prat!
dennis@home
Sep 26, 2012, 2:16:43 PM9/26/12
to
"Percy" <Pe...@no.chance> wrote in message news:Ow0d7oLo...@0.0.0.0...
8<
>>>>Ten pins, magnetic anti bump pin, snap it off and you can't get to
>>>>the mechanism from the outside.
>>> 5 pins each side.
>>
>>Five pins inside five hollow pins.
>
> Then why not say what you meant?
dennis@home
Sep 26, 2012, 2:19:17 PM9/26/12
to
"Phamer" <pha...@no.spam.here> wrote in message
news:SuSdne65UYLsaP_N...@brightview.co.uk...
> Wrong again! 4 dual pins and 1 solid.
I fixed your sig.
> --
> Prat!
Nospam
Sep 26, 2012, 7:22:38 PM9/26/12
to
very hard metal, and the retaining screw is hardened; I suspect it would
be very difficult to pull out. Clearly it wouldn't resist someone
hacking or melting their way through the door but it's going to stop
most scrotes.
Phamer
Sep 27, 2012, 2:35:16 AM9/27/12
to
On 26/09/2012 19:19, dennis@home wrote:
>
>
> "Phamer" <pha...@no.spam.here> wrote in message
> news:SuSdne65UYLsaP_N...@brightview.co.uk...
>
>
>> Wrong again! 4 dual pins and 1 solid.
>
> How about the magnetic one.
>
You really are trying for fuckwit of the year aren't you?
>
>
> "Phamer" <pha...@no.spam.here> wrote in message
> news:SuSdne65UYLsaP_N...@brightview.co.uk...
>
>
>> Wrong again! 4 dual pins and 1 solid.
>
> How about the magnetic one.
>
The ABS Avocet Euro Cylinder has FOUR coaxial pin pairs and ONE SOLID
magnetic pin.
That makes NINE pins by your strange calculations or FIVE pins by any
sensible person's calculations.
Because the FOUR coaxial pins act in the same way as solid pins as far
as tamper protection is concerned. If you actually knew anything about
locks you would also realise that the coaxial pin system only provides a
small amount of additional security and should be disregarded when
comparing with other types.
dennis@home
Sep 27, 2012, 3:54:50 AM9/27/12
to
news:achh25...@mid.individual.net...
>> However I don't see what stops you driving a screw into the lock and
>> pulling half the lock out.
>> Or what stops you moving the locking cam once you have taken the front
>> half of the lock off.
>
> I don't intend to test it, but it's a narrow slot in what seems to be very
> hard metal, and the retaining screw is hardened; I suspect it would be
> very difficult to pull out.
The biggest threat used to be bumping, until the scrotes discovered how easy
it was to break the actual cylinder with a pair of molegrips.
Now what you need is something to resist the breaking as most scrotes aren't
going to have the skill or the time to pick the lock.
On most euro cylinders they are easy to break as there isn't much metal due
to the shape.
So now you get sacrificial break of bits which are supposed to protect the
lock but the scrotes can bypass that by driving a screw in and pulling the
other non sacrificial bit out.
Various locks claim to prevent this but I don't see how a few lugs sticking
out are going to stop it as there is nothing structural on the outside that
they can act against other than the handle/plate and they are very
vulnerable to a claw hammer or crowbar.
You can buy security handles that are supposed to be tougher than the
standard ones but I doubt if anything that mounts on a PVC door can be much
tougher. Lets face it, most PVC doors don't even have the steel reinforcing
fitted in the frame around the panels.
BTW as that prat keeps posting I miscounted the pins, there are nine in the
ABS. I don't agree with anything else he has said as you can watch attacks
on youtube and the pin inside a pin does take longer to pick.
>> However I don't see what stops you driving a screw into the lock and
>> pulling half the lock out.
>> Or what stops you moving the locking cam once you have taken the front
>> half of the lock off.
>
> I don't intend to test it, but it's a narrow slot in what seems to be very
> hard metal, and the retaining screw is hardened; I suspect it would be
> very difficult to pull out.
it was to break the actual cylinder with a pair of molegrips.
Now what you need is something to resist the breaking as most scrotes aren't
going to have the skill or the time to pick the lock.
On most euro cylinders they are easy to break as there isn't much metal due
to the shape.
So now you get sacrificial break of bits which are supposed to protect the
lock but the scrotes can bypass that by driving a screw in and pulling the
other non sacrificial bit out.
Various locks claim to prevent this but I don't see how a few lugs sticking
out are going to stop it as there is nothing structural on the outside that
they can act against other than the handle/plate and they are very
vulnerable to a claw hammer or crowbar.
You can buy security handles that are supposed to be tougher than the
standard ones but I doubt if anything that mounts on a PVC door can be much
tougher. Lets face it, most PVC doors don't even have the steel reinforcing
fitted in the frame around the panels.
BTW as that prat keeps posting I miscounted the pins, there are nine in the
ABS. I don't agree with anything else he has said as you can watch attacks
on youtube and the pin inside a pin does take longer to pick.
A.Lee
Sep 27, 2012, 4:08:54 AM9/27/12
to
dennis@home <den...@killspam.kicks-ass.net> wrote:
> "Nospam" <Nom...@hursley.ibm.com> wrote in message
> news:achh25...@mid.individual.net...
>
> >> However I don't see what stops you driving a screw into the lock and
> >> pulling half the lock out.
> >> Or what stops you moving the locking cam once you have taken the front
> >> half of the lock off.
> >
> > I don't intend to test it, but it's a narrow slot in what seems to be very
> > hard metal, and the retaining screw is hardened; I suspect it would be
> > very difficult to pull out.
>
> The biggest threat used to be bumping, until the scrotes discovered how easy
> it was to break the actual cylinder with a pair of molegrips.
> Now what you need is something to resist the breaking as most scrotes aren't
> going to have the skill or the time to pick the lock.
And, in the real world, it is not worth anyone trying to pick or break a
> "Nospam" <Nom...@hursley.ibm.com> wrote in message
> news:achh25...@mid.individual.net...
>
> >> However I don't see what stops you driving a screw into the lock and
> >> pulling half the lock out.
> >> Or what stops you moving the locking cam once you have taken the front
> >> half of the lock off.
> >
> > I don't intend to test it, but it's a narrow slot in what seems to be very
> > hard metal, and the retaining screw is hardened; I suspect it would be
> > very difficult to pull out.
>
> The biggest threat used to be bumping, until the scrotes discovered how easy
> it was to break the actual cylinder with a pair of molegrips.
> Now what you need is something to resist the breaking as most scrotes aren't
> going to have the skill or the time to pick the lock.
lock on a upvc door, you just use a crowbar on the door, and it will pop
open.
I've said this before, I have been to at least 10 break-ins to make
secure, and everyone of them had the door or window jemmied open.
I demonstrated this to a lady once , who said they had the best locks
available etc. I got the door open in around a minute, with no damage to
the door or frame - just use 2 or 3 wedges, and jemmy round, and they
pop open.
If I wasnt bothered about damaging the door, it would take less than 20
seconds with minimal noise. If I wasnt bothered about the noise, it
would be 10 seconds.
The lock is not an hindrance at all to getting in, the only benefits are
that better locks are smoother, and dont wear as fast as the £5 ones
from Screwfix.
On wooden doors, there may be a benefit to using good quality mortice
locks, but again, they can be jemmied open fairly easily if there is
only the one lock.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.
F
Sep 27, 2012, 5:22:34 AM9/27/12
to
On 27/09/2012 09:08 A.Lee wrote:
> I've said this before, I have been to at least 10 break-ins to make
> secure, and everyone of them had the door or window jemmied open.
>
> I demonstrated this to a lady once , who said they had the best locks
> available etc. I got the door open in around a minute, with no damage to
> the door or frame - just use 2 or 3 wedges, and jemmy round, and they
> pop open.
> If I wasnt bothered about damaging the door, it would take less than 20
> seconds with minimal noise. If I wasnt bothered about the noise, it
> would be 10 seconds.
>
> The lock is not an hindrance at all to getting in, the only benefits are
> that better locks are smoother, and dont wear as fast as the £5 ones
> from Screwfix.
From this, and other responses (thanks, all), it looks like it's fairly
> I've said this before, I have been to at least 10 break-ins to make
> secure, and everyone of them had the door or window jemmied open.
>
> I demonstrated this to a lady once , who said they had the best locks
> available etc. I got the door open in around a minute, with no damage to
> the door or frame - just use 2 or 3 wedges, and jemmy round, and they
> pop open.
> If I wasnt bothered about damaging the door, it would take less than 20
> seconds with minimal noise. If I wasnt bothered about the noise, it
> would be 10 seconds.
>
> The lock is not an hindrance at all to getting in, the only benefits are
> that better locks are smoother, and dont wear as fast as the £5 ones
> from Screwfix.
pointless in changing the locks then.
--
F
Ilene D'over
Sep 27, 2012, 6:07:46 AM9/27/12
to
F <news@nowhere.?.invalid> wrote...
>On 27/09/2012 09:08 A.Lee wrote:
>
>> I've said this before, I have been to at least 10 break-ins to make
>> secure, and everyone of them had the door or window jemmied open.
>>
>> I demonstrated this to a lady once , who said they had the best locks
>> available etc. I got the door open in around a minute, with no damage to
>> the door or frame - just use 2 or 3 wedges, and jemmy round, and they
>> pop open.
I really do not understand how you can say this. On (very) old doors it
was not uncommon to find just a 4 or 5 point roller cam holding the door
closed with, if you were lucky, a short mortise bolt into the striker
plate.
Any good later door will have at least 3 mortise bolts which you will
certainly not be able to "pop open" without doing considerable damage.
Of course, if the frame has any movement in it or it is not properly
installed it is possible to flex the frame enough to get around some
mortise bolts.
This was why some manufacturers added a claw to the mortise bolt to
prevent levering out the bolts..
>> If I wasnt bothered about damaging the door, it would take less than 20
>> seconds with minimal noise. If I wasnt bothered about the noise, it
>> would be 10 seconds.
As someone who gets called out on occasions to help customers get in
after locking themselves out or losing their keys, I can assure you that
it is not an easy job to gain entry from the outside without doing a lot
of damage. I prefer to get a window open and take the door off from the
inside to minimise damage. If the door opens outwards it's very easy to
remove!
You only have to watch video of Police Officers using their Big Red Key
to see how well secured some PVCu doors can be. Others, of course, "pop
open" at the first touch.
>>
>> The lock is not an hindrance at all to getting in, the only benefits are
>> that better locks are smoother, and dont wear as fast as the £5 ones
>> from Screwfix.
Having good locks is a deterrent. A determined burglar will get in
regardless by snapping if possible but your average scroat will not
bother and look for another way in if he sees a good snap-resistant
cylinder.
The greatest advantage of the Avocet is that it leaves nothing for the
scroat to operate once they have snapped the front off unlike a lot of
other cylinders.
There are a lot of snap-resistant cylinders out there but if it doesn't
have a hardened steel centre bridge it can still be broken even when the
sacrificial section has snapped off.
don't fit them ourselves, we fit Yale, but that's a cost decision by the
men in suits in our factory :o(
As for some of the other comments I have seen in this thread, no one
would even consider trying to pick or bump an Avocet cylinder. Drilling
really doesn't work very well either so you are left with snapping and I
covered that earlier.
--
Ilene
>On 27/09/2012 09:08 A.Lee wrote:
>
>> I've said this before, I have been to at least 10 break-ins to make
>> secure, and everyone of them had the door or window jemmied open.
>>
>> I demonstrated this to a lady once , who said they had the best locks
>> available etc. I got the door open in around a minute, with no damage to
>> the door or frame - just use 2 or 3 wedges, and jemmy round, and they
>> pop open.
was not uncommon to find just a 4 or 5 point roller cam holding the door
closed with, if you were lucky, a short mortise bolt into the striker
plate.
Any good later door will have at least 3 mortise bolts which you will
certainly not be able to "pop open" without doing considerable damage.
Of course, if the frame has any movement in it or it is not properly
installed it is possible to flex the frame enough to get around some
mortise bolts.
This was why some manufacturers added a claw to the mortise bolt to
prevent levering out the bolts..
>> If I wasnt bothered about damaging the door, it would take less than 20
>> seconds with minimal noise. If I wasnt bothered about the noise, it
>> would be 10 seconds.
after locking themselves out or losing their keys, I can assure you that
it is not an easy job to gain entry from the outside without doing a lot
of damage. I prefer to get a window open and take the door off from the
inside to minimise damage. If the door opens outwards it's very easy to
remove!
You only have to watch video of Police Officers using their Big Red Key
to see how well secured some PVCu doors can be. Others, of course, "pop
open" at the first touch.
>>
>> The lock is not an hindrance at all to getting in, the only benefits are
>> that better locks are smoother, and dont wear as fast as the £5 ones
>> from Screwfix.
regardless by snapping if possible but your average scroat will not
bother and look for another way in if he sees a good snap-resistant
cylinder.
The greatest advantage of the Avocet is that it leaves nothing for the
scroat to operate once they have snapped the front off unlike a lot of
other cylinders.
There are a lot of snap-resistant cylinders out there but if it doesn't
have a hardened steel centre bridge it can still be broken even when the
sacrificial section has snapped off.
>
>From this, and other responses (thanks, all), it looks like it's fairly
>pointless in changing the locks then.
>
I would upgrade to the Avocet if you have cheap cylinders installed. We
>From this, and other responses (thanks, all), it looks like it's fairly
>pointless in changing the locks then.
>
don't fit them ourselves, we fit Yale, but that's a cost decision by the
men in suits in our factory :o(
As for some of the other comments I have seen in this thread, no one
would even consider trying to pick or bump an Avocet cylinder. Drilling
really doesn't work very well either so you are left with snapping and I
covered that earlier.
--
Ilene
F
Sep 27, 2012, 6:20:57 AM9/27/12
to
On 27/09/2012 11:07 Ilene D'over wrote:
> I would upgrade to the Avocet if you have cheap cylinders installed. We
> don't fit them ourselves, we fit Yale, but that's a cost decision by the
> men in suits in our factory :o(
>
> As for some of the other comments I have seen in this thread, no one
> would even consider trying to pick or bump an Avocet cylinder. Drilling
> really doesn't work very well either so you are left with snapping and I
> covered that earlier.
And within 45 minutes of my previous post I've had CASAC
> I would upgrade to the Avocet if you have cheap cylinders installed. We
> don't fit them ourselves, we fit Yale, but that's a cost decision by the
> men in suits in our factory :o(
>
> As for some of the other comments I have seen in this thread, no one
> would even consider trying to pick or bump an Avocet cylinder. Drilling
> really doesn't work very well either so you are left with snapping and I
> covered that earlier.
(http://www.casac.org.uk/ - 'Home Security Social Enterprise with
Charity status') and a PCSO on my doorstep asking if I've thought of
changing my Euro-locks!
I explained what I've learnt in this thread and they recommended the
Avocet -
https://www.upvc-hardware.co.uk/locks-gearing/euro-cylinder-lock-barrels/avocet-abs-euro-cylinder-locks-bump-drill-snap-resistant?number_of_uploads=0&
- which would confirm what you are suggesting. They also said it
wouldn't succumb to the 'bang a screw in' attack.
--
F
Ilene D'over
Sep 27, 2012, 8:30:44 AM9/27/12
to
F <news@nowhere.?.invalid> wrote...
And they are correct!
If you do decide to fit Avocet cylinders try:
http://www.abbeyarchitectural.co.uk
Cheaper and excellent service. No affiliation.
--
Ilene
If you do decide to fit Avocet cylinders try:
http://www.abbeyarchitectural.co.uk
Cheaper and excellent service. No affiliation.
--
Ilene
dennis@home
Sep 27, 2012, 9:27:26 AM9/27/12
to
"A.Lee" <alan@darkroom.+.com> wrote in message
news:1kr2p2n.172sgo9ammtxfN%alan@darkroom.+.com...
You can't just lever them out unless the window/door manufacturer has
omitted the metal reinforcement.
> The lock is not an hindrance at all to getting in, the only benefits are
> that better locks are smoother, and dont wear as fast as the £5 ones
> from Screwfix.
>
> On wooden doors, there may be a benefit to using good quality mortice
> locks, but again, they can be jemmied open fairly easily if there is
> only the one lock.
Hugo Nebula
Sep 28, 2012, 12:02:54 PM9/28/12
to
[Default] On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:35:16 +0100, a certain chimpanzee,
Phamer <pha...@hotmail.nospam.com>, randomly hit the keyboard and
wrote:
>On 26/09/2012 19:19, dennis@home wrote:
><crap>
>You really are trying for fuckwit of the year aren't you?
You know how if you win the World Cup three times, you get to keep it?
Dennis has a mantlepiece full of awards.
Phamer <pha...@hotmail.nospam.com>, randomly hit the keyboard and
wrote:
>On 26/09/2012 19:19, dennis@home wrote:
>You really are trying for fuckwit of the year aren't you?
Dennis has a mantlepiece full of awards.
0 new messages