first cordless tool - NiCad, NiMh or Li-Ion?
The Night Tripper
as the title says really. I'm likely to be buying my first cordless power
tool in the next few weeks. Likely to be a Combi Drill as part of my
'boarding the attic' project, but obviously it will be used in future for
other jobs around the place. I'm aware of the differences in characteristics
between Nicad, NiMH and Li-ion, but I'm wondering more about obsolescence
rather than anything else. The Nicad tools seem to be being sold off as they
are replaced with NiMH and Li-ion; how do you see this developing over the
next few years?
Thanks
J^n
Dave Liquorice
> The Nicad tools seem to be being sold off as they are replaced with NiMH
> and Li-ion; how do you see this developing over the next few years?
Cadmium is quite likely (or is on the cards) to get banned like lead
and mercury have been. So I'd avoid a NiCd based system. Li-ion has
the best power to weight ratio but also a bigger price tag over NiMH.
Li-ion batteries also have some "smarts" inside them to protect the
cells from over charging or excessive discharge (both rate and
capacity). These smarts can get confused over the actual state of
charge of the battery though that is normally reset by leaving on the
charger for a day.
One problem I've encountered with my only Li-ion powered tool is that
it can cut out if you make it work hard, ie try and take too much
current from the battery. It resets straight away but is PITA, this
is documented in the manual. The tool is a Lidl Li-ion screwdriver.
I've not seen this reported for other Li-ion powered tools but as
it's to protect the battery I wouldn't be surprised if it is a
"feature" of them all.
TBH I'm not sure a combi drill is the best tool for your boarding
project. I find a proper powered screwdriver is much more controlable
than a drill/driver. Drill drivers have sod all torque at low speeds,
so you have to squeeze the trigger harder to get the torque, which
means if the bit slips or any stiction is over come the speed shoots
up and the bit skates across your work at high speed damaging it or
the screw is driven in far too fast and deep.
They aren't that good at drilling holes in anything remotely hard.
Soft red bricks or "cinder" blocks are about the limit.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Andy Dingley
>I'm likely to be buying my first cordless power
> tool in the next few weeks.
Either cheap or £100, but I wouldn't spend more:
Happy Shopper 14V drill/driver for cheap (20 ish) Not the best, but
probably the best "performance / price" deal
Makita multi-batterr NiCd bumper packs for £100 from Screwfix (and a
few others) You get enough batteries to last until you've broken it,
and build quality to make that a long time away.
Li-ions for 150+ You get something that works no better than the
£100 drill, and lasts about the same which ought to be a time when
lithium based batteries (maybe Li-Po by then) are cheaper.
NT
For boarding the lot in one go you want 2 batteries and not a slow
charge, making all but the cheapie ok, though even those are still
quite usable. Using PB screws will reduce the battery drain.
Nicd, Nimh and li-ion drills can all do what you want, so I see no
reason to spend unnecessarily on liion.
You'd probably find that with a dozen screws for practice you could do
the job fine with a 2 speed geared mains drill too, so you might not
need to get anything. For general purpose use nicd is more than good
enough.
NT
The Medway Handyman
I'm in the process of upgrading my Makita NiCd stuff to NiMh because the
NiCd's are starting to fail - to be fair after 3 years of fairly heavy use.
The way I see it NiCd will die out fairly soon because of the Green issues -
and the tree huggers always get their way in the end.
I reckon we will end up with NiMh being the entry level battery and Li-Ion
being the top of the range.
Its the chargers that are likely to cause the problem. Don't know about
other makes, but the Makita chargers that came with the NiCd stuff will also
charge NiMh but not Li-Ion. Also NiCd & NiMh are interchangeable in the
tools, but Li-Ions are not.
Especially for DIY use I'd be happy buying a Makita with NiCd's on one of
the many good deals that are around, on the basis that I could upgrade to
NiMh in the future & use the same charger.
--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
Mark
<allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 08:27:40 +0000, The Night Tripper wrote:
>
>> The Nicad tools seem to be being sold off as they are replaced with NiMH
>> and Li-ion; how do you see this developing over the next few years?
>
>Cadmium is quite likely (or is on the cards) to get banned like lead
>and mercury have been. So I'd avoid a NiCd based system. Li-ion has
>the best power to weight ratio but also a bigger price tag over NiMH.
And Li-ion batteries suffer less from self-discharge so may be better
for occaisional use than NiCd/NiMH.
I've found the NiCD batteries in my Bosch lasted a very short time
before refusing to hold charge so I would be reluctant to buy another.
Hopefully Li-ion kit will come down in price soon.
>They aren't that good at drilling holes in anything remotely hard.
>Soft red bricks or "cinder" blocks are about the limit.
Agreed. Get a mains SDS drill for drilling into hard materials.
--
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Old Git
<davi...@nospamblueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Also NiCd & NiMh are interchangeable in the
>tools, but Li-Ions are not.
>
They are in the Ryobi One+ range.
There are often some good deals on them at Ryobi Direct as well.
www.ryobi-direct.com
For diy use they are more than adequate, I've several of the One+
tools and they have stood up well to a good hammering.
Dave Liquorice
> You'd probably find that with a dozen screws for practice you could do
> the job fine with a 2 speed geared mains drill too,
If going for a mains drill go for an SDS, more than enough torque at
low speed and far more useful for other tasks. The draw back might be
having to have a conventional chuck into the SDS chuck for screw
driver bits, there might to much slop thgus making it less than easy
to control. I don't think you can get SDS shanked screwdriver bits.
--
Cheers
Dave.
The Medway Handyman
> On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:53:15 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
> <davi...@nospamblueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Also NiCd & NiMh are interchangeable in the
>> tools, but Li-Ions are not.
>>
> They are in the Ryobi One+ range.
Interesting. They aren't on Makita, wonder what happens with Bosch &
DeWalt?
jkn
Thanks for your comments. I was a bit quick on the draw when I
typed 'Combi Drill'; what I really meant was 'I'm thinking of buying a
cordless XXX tool to assist me in this project, and in the future".
You have reminded me that combi drill is not necessarily the tool I'd
have most use of. I'm really thinking that preferably I'd have the use
of two drills, to avoid changing between drill and countersink bit.
It might well be the case that a cordless screwdriver would be a
better choice for me. I already have quite a decent (Makita) SDS
drill, and a cheap but adequate B&Q variable speed drill for day to
day use. So yeah, a cordless screwdriver probably fits the gap in my
range better than a combi drill.
I see TMH has recommended the Makita TD20D, but this seems a bit more
than I'm keen on paying. Also, since one of the points of using screws
rather than nails for the boarding is to prevent stress on the
plasterboard beneath, is an impact driver the right tool for this job?
Any other recommendations in the £50 to £75 range?
Thanks
J^n
Dave Liquorice
> It might well be the case that a cordless screwdriver would be a
> better choice for me. I already have quite a decent (Makita) SDS
> drill, and a cheap but adequate B&Q variable speed drill for day to
> day use. So yeah, a cordless screwdriver probably fits the gap in my
> range better than a combi drill.
>
> I see TMH has recommended the Makita TD20D, but this seems a bit more
> than I'm keen on paying.
As you have most other bases covered I'd say that the TD20D will fill
a gap very well for you.
> Also, since one of the points of using screws rather than nails for the
> boarding is to prevent stress on the plasterboard beneath, is an impact
> driver the right tool for this job?
The don't bang down (like an SDS drill) they bang around.
--
Cheers
Dave.
george
which has a clever springy thing in it
which detects when it touches the plasterboard
and stops it turning the screw any further ...
not sure if its useful or a gimmik...
[g]
The Medway Handyman
You can pick up the TD020DSE for around �50 if you shop around. Try E Bay.
Quite a few people here have them & like them.
js.b1
weeks.
NiMH is good for trade - leave them any length of time and they will
be flat.
Suggestion-1
Screwfix still do a Dewalt 18V with twin batteries for £100. It has a
13mm chuck, good high rpm (1900rpm, better than 1300rpm anyway with
many bits), decent power.
Suggestion-2
Ebay often carry factory-refurb Makita 12V drill/driver with 2-3x
1.3Ah batteries for about £50 on auction. When the batteries get tired
buy a generic 2.0Ah to replace each.
The problem with cheap "DIY-targetted" cordless tools is the batteries
are 1.3Ah or 1.5Ah, which seem to have quite a steep discharge after a
while such that you want a fresh battery before it has fully
discharged. Not like the older 1990s batteries which seem better.
A generic 2.0Ah battery can be really good in that respect, it just
keeps on going. The 3.0Ah NiMH with a £130 tool are very good because
they really DO keep on going - but self-discharge.
Forget a combi, they tend to be heavier for little gain.
6-8-10mm holes?
Cordless drill/driver with Bosch Multi-Bits (no hammer, just drill
away).
Numerous 6-8-10-24mm holes?
SDS, however for most DIYers the above bits render SDS unnecessary.
22-152mm holes?
Diamond core drill such as Sparky (£130) Makita (£85 used to £230
new).
A good SDS can of course do a good job as a diamond core drill - needs
a good clutch, high wattage, lots of torque. SDS need to step up to
the plate against the Bosch Multi-Bits and become a better diamond
core drill - most are good, but they need the low-speed torque (how
about a proper 2-speed gearbox?).
If you google and do want a twin 2.6Ah NiMH you can probably find a
Makita for about £109-129, they crop up every now and then. Very good,
very powerful, think they may even have 13mm chucks - small are a PITA.
Andrew Gabriel
"Dave Liquorice" <allsortsn...@howhill.com> writes:
> On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 08:27:40 +0000, The Night Tripper wrote:
>
>> The Nicad tools seem to be being sold off as they are replaced with NiMH
>> and Li-ion; how do you see this developing over the next few years?
>
> Cadmium is quite likely (or is on the cards) to get banned like lead
> and mercury have been. So I'd avoid a NiCd based system.
I have a 10-year old B&D electric screwdriver which is NiCD based,
and it's been superb. Long shelf life, very powerful (alarming the
first time I used it and snapped a steel screw).
The NiCDs finally died this year, and it took a bit of hunting to
find replacement 2/3rds length C cells (just about everywhere was
"no longer stocked", but eventually I found "until stocks exhausted").
They cost more that a replacement screwdriver, but I really got to
like this old B&D unit, and so went with replacement batteries.
Last week, the gearbox suddenly jammed, and I thought that would be
the end of it. Carefully took the planetary gearbox apart, cleaned
off the grease which had gone solid, regreased, and it's fine again.
The jamming was due to the over-thick grease, and a very clever part
of the gearbox, which it took me a while to work out what it did.
There were 6 rollers which fitted between the output shaft and the
body of the tool, but the shaft had gradual indentations around it
which caused the rollers to jam the shaft against the tool body,
stopping rotation. Anyway, after some playing, I worked out that
the rollers jam the shaft if you try turning the shaft by hand,
but allow free rotation if the shaft is being driven from the other
end by the motor. This allows you to use the tool as a manual
screwdriver, by locking the shaft when you are forcing rotation
rather than the motor. It works in both directions (otherwise it
could simply have been a ratchet). Looking back, I realise this
stopped working perhaps a year ago; when turning the screwdriver
manually, you could hear some rotation of the gears. Now that I've
cleaned and regreased it all, it works as it originally did,
locking the shaft solid when you use it as a manual screwdriver
in either direction. All quite clever.
--
Andrew Gabriel
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