OT - UPS - any experts out there ?
Adrian Brentnall
We seem to be getting more & more short duration (5 seconds, maybe)
power outages (local Electricty folks looking into it -
but apparently it's somewhere on a 5km stretch of cabling
between here & the village - and, as it's self-resetting,
it's difficult to trace / fix).
So - thinking UPS for the 3 pc's here.
The two in the office are entry-level Dells, and could (perhaps) be fed
from the same UPS box ??
The one outside spends most of its time uploading data from the weather
station up to the web - and is probably too far away
to share the office UPS..
So - looking at CPC's website (only because they offer very reasonable
carriage rates to this part of Ireland) - there's a bewildering array
of units....
Any recommendations from what's on offer ?
personal experiences - ones to avoid..?
To be honest - it's probably less of a long-term UPS
that's needed - more of a 'keep the PCs running til the mains trips back
in' device..
Any suggestions ?
Thanks
Adrian
NT
As your run time needs are so short, the only real issue is the power
output capability of the UPS
NT
js.b1
Look on Ebay Ireland for refurbished APC SmartUPS 600 or 1000, just
make sure the batteries with it are new.
You can always sell at nearly the price you paid when the problem is
fixed.
Peter Crosland
news:he9jf4$53m$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
I run a PCs and two Belkin UPS. They work fine doing a similar job to the
one you need. My weather station runs on a laptop which in effect provides
backup for that part. The ADSL router and wireless access run off their own
UPS. If you are buying secondhand beware that the batteries may be
knackered. Feel free to contact me off group if you wish.
Peter Crosland
Steve Walker
I have similar problems, excellently solved with a recon UPS unit from ebay.
You might need a couple, but small & cheap.
Would unreservedly recommend the seller
http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/ups-trader/
Bob Eager
> I have similar problems, excellently solved with a recon UPS unit from
> ebay. You might need a couple, but small & cheap.
>
> Would unreservedly recommend the seller
> http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/ups-trader/
That's not Andy Whitfield, is it? Used to be on uk.adverts.computer...
If so, yes, he knows his stuff. Gave me great service.
Replacement batteries - if needed - I like www.mdsbattery.co.uk
Occasionally Amazon have batteries at a good price - and zero shipping!
--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Grimly Curmudgeon
drugs began to take hold. I remember Adrian Brentnall
<adr...@ambquality.co.uk> saying something like:
>So - looking at CPC's website (only because they offer very reasonable
>carriage rates to this part of Ireland) - there's a bewildering array
>of units....
'Cos they're made in Naas, or somewhere.
>Any recommendations from what's on offer ?
I've been using an APC 1000VA unit for years, bought after intermittent
power outages seriously wrecked a PC. It's been marvellous, saving such
a thing happening again and only now is the battery showing signs of
needing replacement, after 7 or 8 years.
Dave Liquorice
> As your run time needs are so short, the only real issue is the power
> output capability of the UPS
Always assuming that the auto recloser always resets. The one in the
11kv line that feeds us does *unless* it trips 3 times in less than a
minute or something like that. If does get too many trips in a period
it latches off and has to be manually reset, hopefully after the
fault has been found and cleared.
Having the connected PC's shutdown gracefully on power failure (or a
minute or two after) is sensible. Not sure how one would arrange that
with a USB UPS connected to a window box. I think there is only a NUT
client for doze.
As for the REC "looking into it", yeah sure they are... 5 clicks is a
nice short walk. Walk the line and see if there are any bits of tree
within a couple of feet of the line (think wind blowing a twig
against it). It's the wrong time of year for tree growth though,
that's normally a late spring early summer problem and a single bit
of fresh tree doesn't normally create more than a few outages as it
gets blown up and killed when it touches the line. A bigger older bit
of tree will last longer of course.
--
Cheers
Dave.
John Rumm
> So - thinking UPS for the 3 pc's here.
> The two in the office are entry-level Dells, and could (perhaps) be fed
> from the same UPS box ??
> The one outside spends most of its time uploading data from the weather
> station up to the web - and is probably too far away
> to share the office UPS..
Yup, no problem doing that if it can hack the loading.
> So - looking at CPC's website (only because they offer very reasonable
> carriage rates to this part of Ireland) - there's a bewildering array
> of units....
>
> Any recommendations from what's on offer ?
> personal experiences - ones to avoid..?
I always for for APC units. They seem well made work well enough for me.
> To be honest - it's probably less of a long-term UPS
> that's needed - more of a 'keep the PCs running til the mains trips back
> in' device..
Some factors to look at: The total loading supportable (measured in VA
rather than watts. So if you are supplying a mixed bag of computer bits
n bobs then its probably safest to divide the estimated total power by
about 0.8 to arrive at VA), and run time. The run time is a result of
the loading and the battery capacity. So you may find a UPS with bigger
or more batts can support the same total load, but run it for longer.
The holdup times quoted are usually at full load. Often these can be
quite short - say 5 mins. But that time will lengthen if the load is less.
The other difference you will see is the type of UPS. The simplest ones
are backup devices. They do nothing much (they may filter some spikes
out of the mains) until the power fails. They then switch to supplying
power quick enough that the load does not notice. APC "Back UPS" devices
are like this; fairly cheap and well suited to mains that is ok but
fails from time to time. Historically the high end ones were "online"
types - these run their inverter all the time and supply the supported
kit from their own simulated mains at all times. Good at curing a
variety of dodgy power problems and not just providing backup power. APC
also do a middle tier technology they call "line interactive", which are
like a mix of both technologies. They attempt to augment the mains as
they pass it though - filling in glitches and brown outs, clipping
surges and spikes. These are good for mains supplies that are generally
more flaky even when on.
Some examples: I use a pair of 1kVA units on my main systems. That's two
PCs, two screens (one LCD, one *big* 23" CRT), a bunch of external
peripherals (couple of scanners, inkjet, print server, external drives
of various types etc). In reality one of the 1kVA units is enough to
hold up the lot, however I have the monitors on a second one because I
found the switch on surge on on the CRT would very briefly overload the
UPS - and that glitch was long enough to drop a PC. Hence if the monitor
was off when the power went, I could not turn it on to see what I was
doing to shut the machine down gracefully. With the pair, I get a run
time of 15 to 25 mins.
I have a smaller 400VA UPS[1] that holds up my comms cabinet. That
supports a PABX, gigabit switch, backup NAS device and external hard
drive, plus a ADSL router, and a ADSL modem talking to a pair of
broadband lines. That one is nowhere near its full load, and will hold
up for a good 45 mins or so.
[1] This one: http://www.ebuyer.com/product/113906
--
Cheers,
John.
/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Adrian Brentnall
So it's a matter of reading the ratings labels on the back of the kit..?
All the ofice screens are lcd, so I guess that helps with power
consumption.
When I mentioned UPS's about the house, it was suggested that backing up
the power to the Sky+ box would also be a Good Thing.....
So I guess it's a matter of deciding whether to go with one or two BIG
boxes or a scattering of smaller units....
Thanks
Adrian Brentnall
Dave Liquorice wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 12:50:43 -0800 (PST), NT wrote:
>
>> As your run time needs are so short, the only real issue is the power
>> output capability of the UPS
>
> Always assuming that the auto recloser always resets. The one in the
> 11kv line that feeds us does *unless* it trips 3 times in less than a
> minute or something like that. If does get too many trips in a period
> it latches off and has to be manually reset, hopefully after the
> fault has been found and cleared.
Well - I know that last night was a bit wild out here (understatement!)
but the mains tripped out three or four times between 7:30 and 9:30 -
varying lengths of time - longest being about 10 mins
>
> Having the connected PC's shutdown gracefully on power failure (or a
> minute or two after) is sensible. Not sure how one would arrange that
> with a USB UPS connected to a window box. I think there is only a NUT
> client for doze.
Yes - it would be advantageous. Is that what the serial / usb connection
is all about - the box tells the PC to shut down in a tidy fashion ?
>
> As for the REC "looking into it", yeah sure they are... 5 clicks is a
> nice short walk. Walk the line and see if there are any bits of tree
> within a couple of feet of the line (think wind blowing a twig
> against it). It's the wrong time of year for tree growth though,
> that's normally a late spring early summer problem and a single bit
> of fresh tree doesn't normally create more than a few outages as it
> gets blown up and killed when it touches the line. A bigger older bit
> of tree will last longer of course.
>
Speaking to the engineer the other day - he reckoned that there was
'something' that was tripping the circuit - and the data recording stuff
was registering a fault current of 80A (at 11kv!) just before the thing
tripped out. He commented that bits of tree don;t last all that long in
that situation - but didn't say that he'd found the fault....
We're on the end of a wire - two of us sharing a poletop transformer -
and I suspect that the mains isn't all that clean, as various bits of
electrickery have failed in the last 3 years...
Ah well - we do have a great view ! <g>
Adrian
Adrian Brentnall
Thanks. The only Irish-based one I can see at the moment is a 1500VA -
start price 1 euro - buy it now 400 euro - lots of phtots but no mention
of battery condx.
Adrian Brentnall
Thanks - that was my initial idea - one UPS per box
CPC have the 600va Belkin at 32 uk pounds + vat
- which seems very cheap - I could afford three of those and solve
all the backup problems!
I'm always nervous of 'buying cheap' - but I guess for my application
this might do the trick...
Andy Burns
> I always for for APC units. They seem well made work well enough for me.
I have two APC units (one bought second hand, one scrounged) the
electronics are positively stone age, I regard this is a good thing.
Bob Eager
> So it's a matter of reading the ratings labels on the back of the kit..?
> All the ofice screens are lcd, so I guess that helps with power
> consumption.
As said before, they're rated in VA and not in watts. You therefore need
a UPS with a VA rating about 20-25% greater than the max watts you will
draw. I'd personally oversize it quite a lot to get increased run time.
I use APC kit here and it's been fine. Not perfect, but there we are.
The APC Smart-UPS range is a little more expensive, but it handles low
and high volts. At specified points, it'll kick in and provide the
*correct* voltage - useful if something on the network goes awry and
starts supplying 260 volts or 200 volts!
Bob Eager
> Thanks - that was my initial idea - one UPS per box CPC have the 600va
> Belkin at 32 uk pounds + vat
NO! NO! NO!
a) It's Belkin - seriously
b) You get what you pay for here....and that's not a lot.
Think of the cost of the kit you're trusting to it..
Bob Eager
Yes, I have older models as they monitor through serial ports rather than
USB. I have a SmartUPS 1400, a SmartUPS 1500 and a SmartUPS 700 (the last
one runs the whole central rack).
dennis@home
"Adrian Brentnall" <adr...@ambquality.co.uk> wrote in message
news:heauur$r21$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Thanks - that was my initial idea - one UPS per box
> CPC have the 600va Belkin at 32 uk pounds + vat
> - which seems very cheap - I could afford three of those and solve
> all the backup problems!
>
> I'm always nervous of 'buying cheap' - but I guess for my application
> this might do the trick...
There are only two issues with really cheap UPS boxes..
they don't usually have monitor ports so they can't tell the computer to
start shutdown.
The batteries are only big enough to shut the computer down once or twice in
quick succession (before the batteries have recharged).
Neither has any effect on what you want to cure.
IME the best have network monitoring and are line interactive but I don't
see how that would benefit you.
Andy Burns
> The APC Smart-UPS range is a little more expensive, but it handles low
> and high volts. At specified points, it'll kick in and provide the
> *correct* voltage -
My supply voltage tends to be at the high end, my UPSs spend about 8
hours a day here in "trim" mode (both UPSs agree, but I've never
measured with a decent multimeter, I have a mains disturbance recorder
somewhere but it's decades out of calibration)
Andy Burns
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 09:06:33 +0000, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
>
>> Belkin
>
> NO! NO! NO!
While we're warning people off from low end UPSes can I add the MGE
Ellipse range (now owned by Eaton who are otherwise good).
Batteries fail on all UPSes eventually, but on the Ellipse seems
designed so when this happens the UPS fails in a off state rather than a
bypass mode, even manual button pushing doesnt help, this is not good
when a customer has 20 of them powering equipment in remote locations.
Mike Tomlinson
<rd...@spamcop.net> writes
>NO! NO! NO!
>
>a) It's Belkin - seriously
>b) You get what you pay for here....and that's not a lot.
>
Agreed.
To the OP: get APC. SmartUPS if you find a model you can afford. 3
basic APC UPSes will cost you 300 euro. How much is your data worth?
It may or may not matter to you, but APC support is in Ireland.
--
(\__/)
(='.'=) Bunny says Windows 7 is Vi$ta reloaded.
(")_(") http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/windows_7.png
Mike Tomlinson
<rd...@spamcop.net> writes
>That's not Andy Whitfield, is it? Used to be on uk.adverts.computer...
Not sure.
>If so, yes, he knows his stuff. Gave me great service.
Indeed. Andy is a good egg.
Mike Tomlinson
Burns <usenet....@adslpipe.co.uk> writes
>My supply voltage tends to be at the high end,
It is rather (250.78V average). The upper limit is 253V, so your
utility company may be reluctant to get involved. Do you get lots of
lightbulbs popping?
Dave Liquorice
> My supply voltage tends to be at the high end, my UPSs spend about 8
> hours a day here in "trim" mode
When I first got my UPS it instantly went into trim mode I thought it
was fault until I measured the supply voltage. I then logged the
voltage for a while then rang the REC, they came round agreed the
high voltage and adjusted the taping on our transformer. The
frequency of incandescent light bulbs going pop dropped from one a
month to one a year or longer.
From your plot 254v is above the upper tolerance of 230v +10% or
253v. Complain and get that average down to at least 240v, you
actuall have a pretty stable suppy at +/- 4v, ours is nearer +/- 10v.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Andy Burns
> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> My supply voltage tends to be at the high end,
>
> It is rather (250.78V average). The upper limit is 253V, so your
> utility company may be reluctant to get involved.
Yeah, I figured for 1 or 2 volts above the limit part of the time I'd be
pissing in the wind, sub-station is only about 50yds away, maybe others
further away complained about low voltage?
> Do you get lots of lightbulbs popping?
<whisper>No, I mainly use CFLs.</whisper>
Peter Scott
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 10:02:10 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> On 22/11/09 05:10, John Rumm wrote:
>>
>>> I always for for APC units. They seem well made work well enough for
>>> me.
>> I have two APC units (one bought second hand, one scrounged) the
>> electronics are positively stone age, I regard this is a good thing.
>
> Yes, I have older models as they monitor through serial ports rather than
> USB. I have a SmartUPS 1400, a SmartUPS 1500 and a SmartUPS 700 (the last
> one runs the whole central rack).
>
>
and its still going strong after many years (not sure how many). Others
have failed after a time (a Belkin one stands out).
The most recent one I bought sparked internally and failed immediately.
So APC is not perfect. However their support service is second to none
and I now have a working one. They even reply to emails (no I'm not
making that up!) Its an RS800, and a quad core PC and monitor uses 108
of the 540 watt it can provide, with an estimated 40 minutes of time in
the battery.
Peter Scott
Dave Liquorice
> Well - I know that last night was a bit wild out here (understatement!)
> but the mains tripped out three or four times between 7:30 and 9:30 -
> varying lengths of time - longest being about 10 mins
I was going to ask if it was related to the weather. Seems as if it
is due to movement of the wires and/or stuff close to the lines. It
might be a failling insulator but once they have a track over them
they tend to stay "failed".
> Yes - it would be advantageous. Is that what the serial / usb connection
> is all about - the box tells the PC to shut down in a tidy fashion ?
Yes, you have a bit of software on the connected PC that monitors the
UPS and shuts the PC down when given criteria are met. Other PC's
also supported by that UPS should also shutdown but not sure how you
do that in a windoze enviroment.
> Speaking to the engineer the other day - he reckoned that there was
> 'something' that was tripping the circuit - and the data recording stuff
> was registering a fault current of 80A (at 11kv!) just before the thing
> tripped out.
Only about the same as the load presented by 800 odd homes but makes
a bit of a bang when disipated all on one place. Presumably by "fault
current" he meant 80A going to ground rather than 80A of load.
> He commented that bits of tree don;t last all that long in that
> situation - but didn't say that he'd found the fault....
They normally don't at least not fresh growth or small twigs say up
to an inch in dia it just explodes. Bigger drier bits may last a lot
longer.
> We're on the end of a wire - two of us sharing a poletop transformer -
> and I suspect that the mains isn't all that clean, as various bits of
> electrickery have failed in the last 3 years...
We have around 1/2 km of single phase 11kv spur to "our" pole
transformer. The three phase 11kv to the spur is about 4km long. Get
a decent UPS and you'll be able to log the supply voltage. That may
well be quite enlightening.
> Ah well - we do have a great view ! <g>
So do we.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Adrian Brentnall
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 09:00:36 +0000, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
>
>> Well - I know that last night was a bit wild out here (understatement!)
>> but the mains tripped out three or four times between 7:30 and 9:30 -
>> varying lengths of time - longest being about 10 mins
>
> I was going to ask if it was related to the weather. Seems as if it
> is due to movement of the wires and/or stuff close to the lines. It
> might be a failling insulator but once they have a track over them
> they tend to stay "failed".
Yes - just wish they'd get thier finger out & find whatever it is that's
failing....
>
>> Yes - it would be advantageous. Is that what the serial / usb connection
>> is all about - the box tells the PC to shut down in a tidy fashion ?
>
> Yes, you have a bit of software on the connected PC that monitors the
> UPS and shuts the PC down when given criteria are met. Other PC's
> also supported by that UPS should also shutdown but not sure how you
> do that in a windoze enviroment.
Ah - OK....
Are you saying that the ups could handle the graceful shutdown of one
win (XP) pc? - 'cos that might be all that's needed..
Maybe run a ups for my office machine and the outside weather station
one - my wife's tidier than I am and so her machine tends to be shut
down to a win desktop when she's not at it...
>
>> Speaking to the engineer the other day - he reckoned that there was
>> 'something' that was tripping the circuit - and the data recording stuff
>> was registering a fault current of 80A (at 11kv!) just before the thing
>> tripped out.
>
> Only about the same as the load presented by 800 odd homes but makes
> a bit of a bang when disipated all on one place. Presumably by "fault
> current" he meant 80A going to ground rather than 80A of load.
Apparently so
>
>> He commented that bits of tree don;t last all that long in that
>> situation - but didn't say that he'd found the fault....
>
> They normally don't at least not fresh growth or small twigs say up
> to an inch in dia it just explodes. Bigger drier bits may last a lot
> longer.
I guess walking the line is the only solution..?
Mind you - after the gales we've had and are forecast to have in the
enxt couple of days, they may be rather occupied with 'hard' faults
>
>> We're on the end of a wire - two of us sharing a poletop transformer -
>> and I suspect that the mains isn't all that clean, as various bits of
>> electrickery have failed in the last 3 years...
>
> We have around 1/2 km of single phase 11kv spur to "our" pole
> transformer. The three phase 11kv to the spur is about 4km long. Get
> a decent UPS and you'll be able to log the supply voltage. That may
> well be quite enlightening.
Perhaps I can sell ESB the data <g>
It's something I've been meaning to log - outside in the studio I use
110v soldering irons for stained glass work - and some days the iron
does seem 'hotter' than others.... - might be down to supplty volts...
>
>> Ah well - we do have a great view ! <g>
>
> So do we.
On days when you can actually see it -
recently it's been a bonus to see the front gate!
Still - we're not flooded!
Adrian
Adrian Brentnall
Bob Eager wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 09:06:33 +0000, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
>
>> Thanks - that was my initial idea - one UPS per box CPC have the 600va
>> Belkin at 32 uk pounds + vat
>
> NO! NO! NO!
>
> a) It's Belkin - seriously
> b) You get what you pay for here....and that's not a lot.
>
> Think of the cost of the kit you're trusting to it..
>
>
I take it you're not a Belkin fan then ? <g>
In ascending order of cost - CPC have
(Belkin)
Powercom
Trust
Mustek
Liebert
APC
and then we're up around the 100-quid+VAT-mark
I had a liebert many moons ago - wasn't all that great
and their customer support were very snotty!
Any opinions on the above makes ?
Thanks
>
Adrian
like they were saying:
> Any opinions on the above makes ?
As with the many, many others - APC. Every time.
Andy Burns
> Are you saying that the ups could handle the graceful shutdown of one
> win (XP) pc? - 'cos that might be all that's needed..
Yes, XP itself includes basic UPS software (in control panel, power
settings) that will talk to a SMARTUPS and automatically shut it down.
You can install more sophisticated software from APC themselves (though
they've started charging for some of this now) that lets you use an
agent to shutdown several machines other than the one that has the
serial/USB connection.
Alternatively there is opensource software called NUT which will allow
remote monitoring/shutdown of multiple computers (linux or windows) but
maybe overkill for most users.
Adrian Brentnall
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
> In article <7msig6F3...@mid.individual.net>, Bob Eager
> <rd...@spamcop.net> writes
>
>> NO! NO! NO!
>>
>> a) It's Belkin - seriously
>> b) You get what you pay for here....and that's not a lot.
>>
>
> Agreed.
>
> To the OP: get APC. SmartUPS if you find a model you can afford. 3
> basic APC UPSes will cost you 300 euro. How much is your data worth?
Good question!
>
> It may or may not matter to you, but APC support is in Ireland.
>
Might be handy....
Back at cpc I see this range
http://cpc.farnell.com/apc/bk650ei/ups-back-650va-apc/dp/CS14752
but they claim a backup time of 4 or 2 minutes -
or 45 / 25 seconds on full load (barely long enough for windows to shut
down) Can this be a typo by the chimps at CPC - or is this for real?
Adrian
Andy Burns
> In ascending order of cost - CPC have
>
> (Belkin)
> Powercom
> Trust
> Mustek
> Liebert
> APC
>
> Any opinions on the above makes ?
I'd scrub everything other than the Liebert and APC.
Adrian Brentnall
Bob Eager wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 22:28:26 +0000, Steve Walker wrote:
>
>> I have similar problems, excellently solved with a recon UPS unit from
>> ebay. You might need a couple, but small & cheap.
>>
>> Would unreservedly recommend the seller
>> http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/ups-trader/
>
> That's not Andy Whitfield, is it? Used to be on uk.adverts.computer...
>
> If so, yes, he knows his stuff. Gave me great service.
>
> Replacement batteries - if needed - I like www.mdsbattery.co.uk
>
> Occasionally Amazon have batteries at a good price - and zero shipping!
>
>
>
My only 'loyalty' to CPC is a morbid curiousity to see how badly they
can package the next order, and a grudging respect for the fact that
their shipping costs are very reasonable...
You'd think that Ireland was just round the corner from Outer Mongolia -
the rates some online outfits want to charge!
Adrian
Andy Burns
> http://cpc.farnell.com/apc/bk650ei/ups-back-650va-apc/dp/CS14752
>
> but they claim a backup time of 4 or 2 minutes
The APC page for the BackUPS CS 650VA gives
35 minutes for 100W/160VA load
15 minutes for 200W/320VA load
8 minutes for 300W/480VA load
5 minutes for 400W/640VA load
Adrian
like they were saying:
> but they claim a backup time of 4 or 2 minutes - or 45 / 25 seconds on
> full load (barely long enough for windows to shut down) Can this be a
> typo by the chimps at CPC - or is this for real?
It's utterly believable - but bear in mind that you really don't want to
be running any UPS at full load. Better, by far, to over-spec, albeit
with an increased purchase cost. The protection will be better, the
batteries will last longer.
Adrian
like they were saying:
> You'd think that Ireland was just round the corner from Outer Mongolia -
> the rates some online outfits want to charge!
<shrug> International shipping...
Bob Eager
> Might be handy....
> Back at cpc I see this range
> http://cpc.farnell.com/apc/bk650ei/ups-back-650va-apc/dp/CS14752
>
> but they claim a backup time of 4 or 2 minutes - or 45 / 25 seconds on
> full load (barely long enough for windows to shut down) Can this be a
> typo by the chimps at CPC - or is this for real?
Think you'll find there is a single (full load) figure quoted, e.g. 4
mins 45 secs, or 2 mins 25 secs.
Bob Eager
> My only 'loyalty' to CPC is a morbid curiousity to see how badly they
> can package the next order, and a grudging respect for the fact that
> their shipping costs are very reasonable...
LOL! Couldn't agree more....
I would try Andy Whitfield for a good used UPS. Get a SmartUPS if you can
run to it, as it'll protect things a little more (if the supply is
unreliable, there may be overvoltage bits). I found that he's on
linkedin, so here's his page, with a contact link:
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andy-whitfield/9/9a9/167
Dave Liquorice
> I'd scrub everything other than the Liebert and APC.
<AOL>
--
Cheers
Dave.
Adrian Brentnall
Andy Burns wrote:
> On 22/11/09 14:36, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
>
>> Are you saying that the ups could handle the graceful shutdown of one
>> win (XP) pc? - 'cos that might be all that's needed..
>
> Yes, XP itself includes basic UPS software (in control panel, power
> settings) that will talk to a SMARTUPS and automatically shut it down.
Ah - thanks !
>
> You can install more sophisticated software from APC themselves (though
> they've started charging for some of this now) that lets you use an
> agent to shutdown several machines other than the one that has the
> serial/USB connection.
>
> Alternatively there is opensource software called NUT which will allow
> remote monitoring/shutdown of multiple computers (linux or windows) but
> maybe overkill for most users.
>
Simple == Good!
Thanks
Adrian
Adrian Brentnall
Bob Eager wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 14:49:13 +0000, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
>
>> My only 'loyalty' to CPC is a morbid curiousity to see how badly they
>> can package the next order, and a grudging respect for the fact that
>> their shipping costs are very reasonable...
>
> LOL! Couldn't agree more....
>
> I would try Andy Whitfield for a good used UPS. Get a SmartUPS if you can
> run to it, as it'll protect things a little more (if the supply is
> unreliable, there may be overvoltage bits). I found that he's on
> linkedin, so here's his page, with a contact link:
>
> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andy-whitfield/9/9a9/167
>
Thanks for that - contacted him via eBay
- unless I'm misreading it, linkedin want me to pay them so's I can
email Andy - which ain't going to happen ! <g>
Adrian
js.b1
- UPS can trim/boost by switching tappings on the internal transformer
or by switching to battery. Switching to battery too often will reduce
battery life if you live in a rural location. The former doesn't seem
to go down too well either if hours a day since the transformer
windings might be based on a set percentage usage.
- PCs use SMPS which handle a huge voltage range, so UPS trim/boost is
less critical - continuity of power is since holdup time is about 80ms
(not long).
Cheap UPS do not have trim/boost by transformer, they just switch to
battery reducing its life, battery may not even be replaceable (some
old Belkin were like that?).
UPS are not perfect, they are very high energy units.
- Belkin. Failure takes your equipment with them. The insurance is
mostly worthless.
- APC BackUPS. Not great, can fail with a right shower of sparks, can
fail by intermittent voltage stuttering (will not do equipment much
good!).
- APC SmartUPS. Failed with a shower of sparks. They do not like
spending forever on transformer trim/boost if on high VA loadings.
Failure does not usually take equipment with them.
Do not fit bigger batteries on small UPS - the charger is often
thermally sized based on battery size :-)
Personally I keep UPS on a concrete slab, but I've handled 100s and
know the odd one can fail.
Try Amazon on UPS, you may find something good with free shipping etc.
Too small an UPS is false economy, a few auto-shutdowns and the
battery is dead. In this instance it can be useful to turn off auto-
restart otherwise you can quickly end up with no UPS.
An alternative - backup laptop.
Used Thinkpad X60 on Ebay is £185 with some factory warranty, titanium
case, XP-Pro, weighs 3lb, good display (somewhere between gloss &
matt), 1024 4:3 for office use, exceptional keyboard, trackpoint for
speed, very reliable, 4hrs on 50% dead battery, 8hrs on £35 new, no
optical inbuilt (USB), Core Solo fine because HD 5400rpm or 7200rpm.
Thinkpad warranty is with the machine so transfers automatically
unlike Dell. Others are T60, T61, T43 - just ensure Intel graphics
chip re ATI & nVidia problems.
UPS require batteries eventually, price them out before buying.
Adrian C
>
> As for the REC "looking into it", yeah sure they are... 5 clicks is a
> nice short walk. Walk the line and see if there are any bits of tree
> within a couple of feet of the line (think wind blowing a twig
> against it).
Take an off-tune AM radio with ya.
--
Adrian C
Grimly Curmudgeon
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Dave Liquorice"
<allsortsn...@howhill.com> saying something like:
>Yes, you have a bit of software on the connected PC that monitors the
>UPS and shuts the PC down when given criteria are met. Other PC's
>also supported by that UPS should also shutdown but not sure how you
>do that in a windoze enviroment.
That's where APC's software gets a bit clunky. It happily copes with
shutting down one, but adding more is a pita. I've tried the old
PowerChute that came with the UPS, I've used the newer versions and
frankly they all suck at it. Luckily, W2K and XP cope well with sudden
shutdowns, so I left a PC or two to crash if necessary.
No matter, my next configuration will do away with two or three PCs
running and only one will be on full time, so that setup works ok.
Mike Tomlinson
<adr...@ambquality.co.uk> writes
>Back at cpc I see this range
>http://cpc.farnell.com/apc/bk650ei/ups-back-650va-apc/dp/CS14752
>
>but they claim a backup time of 4 or 2 minutes -
>or 45 / 25 seconds on full load (barely long enough for windows to shut
>down) Can this be a typo by the chimps at CPC - or is this for real?
Yeah, it's for real. That's a Back-UPS model (excuse me while I vomit.)
You'll do a lot better on Ebay - look for 750VA as a minimum, or
consider a larger UPS (min 1500VA) and run the two PCs you have close to
each other on one UPS.
As a guide, I ran a tricked-out PC on a SmartUPS 600 and that was only
just able to cope when the pc was going full pelt. In the end I
desoldered the piezo warning buzzer to quiet the ups when it began
whinging about overload.
Bob Eager
>> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andy-whitfield/9/9a9/167
>>
>>
> Thanks for that - contacted him via eBay - unless I'm misreading it,
> linkedin want me to pay them so's I can email Andy - which ain't going
> to happen ! <g>
Didn't realise that - sorry! How did you find him on eBay - is he the one
mentioned earlier, because I wasn't sure?
Mike Tomlinson
Burns <usenet....@adslpipe.co.uk> writes
>he APC page for the BackUPS CS 650VA gives
>
>35 minutes for 100W/160VA load
>15 minutes for 200W/320VA load
>8 minutes for 300W/480VA load
>5 minutes for 400W/640VA load
Kinda optimistic, I'd suggest. Experience tells me you can usually
depend on 50% of the figure given by the runtime calculator on the APC
website, especially once the batteries are more than a year or so old.
We (at work) have just had to replace two (four actually, one pair in
each) battery cartridges in two SmartUPS 5000VA boxes. 320 quid + vat
each. The UPSes are only about two years old. I think what's done for
the batteries is that they were left in the UPSes without any external
power for several months - these batteries don't like being run flat.
Tried a warranty claim with APC but they weren't having any of it.
Andy Burns
> Didn't realise that - sorry! How did you find him on eBay
Andy Burns
> In article<utCdnTDqh7Ggz5TW...@brightview.co.uk>, Andy
> Burns<usenet....@adslpipe.co.uk> writes
>
>> he APC page for the BackUPS CS 650VA gives
>>
>> 35 minutes for 100W/160VA load
>> 15 minutes for 200W/320VA load
>> 8 minutes for 300W/480VA load
>> 5 minutes for 400W/640VA load
>
> Kinda optimistic, I'd suggest.
I wouldn't rely on them for those times, especially after a couple of years.
For my home use I like the UPSs to have decent runtime, so I have a
2200VA and a 1400VA, for work it's generally only required to cover the
gap between mains failing and generators kicking-in, or doing an
immediate clean shutdown.
> Experience tells me you can usually
> depend on 50% of the figure given by the runtime calculator on the APC
> website, especially once the batteries are more than a year or so old.
>
> We (at work) have just had to replace two (four actually, one pair in
> each) battery cartridges in two SmartUPS 5000VA boxes. 320 quid + vat
> each. The UPSes are only about two years old. I think what's done for
> the batteries is that they were left in the UPSes without any external
> power for several months - these batteries don't like being run flat.
They don't like getting hot either, I usually buy replacement batteries
from a local wholesaler, rather than paying through the nose for
official APC replacement packs, also saves a *lot* on delivery by
collecting them
Andrew Gabriel
I'm about 10 years out of date with powerchute now, but it used to
be regarded in a very low light in the unix world back then.
It was often responsible for more system outages than the poor mains
was before you bought a UPS, not to mention security vunlerabilities
which they never seemed to fix (or even understand).
In the end, I settled for having it just log the mains voltage and
UPS internal status, but not shutdown the server. The server just
died if the battery ran out. In the case of Solaris, that was
harmless providing the system wasn't very busy at the time (and
with ZFS nowadays, it's harmless even if the system is busy).
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
geoff
<adr...@ambquality.co.uk> writes
>HI Bob
>
>Bob Eager wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 22:28:26 +0000, Steve Walker wrote:
>>
>>> I have similar problems, excellently solved with a recon UPS unit
>>>from
>>> ebay. You might need a couple, but small & cheap.
>>>
>>> Would unreservedly recommend the seller
>>> http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/ups-trader/
>> That's not Andy Whitfield, is it? Used to be on
>>uk.adverts.computer...
>> If so, yes, he knows his stuff. Gave me great service.
>> Replacement batteries - if needed - I like www.mdsbattery.co.uk
>> Occasionally Amazon have batteries at a good price - and zero
>>shipping!
>>
>My only 'loyalty' to CPC is a morbid curiousity to see how badly they
>can package the next order, and a grudging respect for the fact that
>their shipping costs are very reasonable...
>
--
geoff
Adrian Brentnall
Still think the time they send me a wooden reel of nice fat UHF coax
in the same cardboard box as a hundred or so cello-packed DIL ICs
represents a peak in their stupidity - but yuo never know what they
might come up with next! <g>
Bless!
Adrian
Bob Eager
> It's an artform, they way they do it!
> Still think the time they send me a wooden reel of nice fat UHF coax in
> the same cardboard box as a hundred or so cello-packed DIL ICs
> represents a peak in their stupidity - but yuo never know what they
> might come up with next! <g>
I have now resorted to 'defensive ordering'. That is, trying to ensure
that I order only non-lethal combinations of items...! Easier with the 20
quid free postage orders at weekends, although I guess that doesn't help
you.
geoff
>geoff wrote:
>> In message <hebj1a$150$2...@news.eternal-september.org>, Adrian
>>Brentnall <adr...@ambquality.co.uk> writes
>>> HI Bob
>>>
>>> Bob Eager wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 22:28:26 +0000, Steve Walker wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I have similar problems, excellently solved with a recon UPS unit from
>>>>> ebay. You might need a couple, but small & cheap.
>>>>>
>>>>> Would unreservedly recommend the seller
>>>>> http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/ups-trader/
>>>> That's not Andy Whitfield, is it? Used to be on uk.adverts.computer...
>>>> If so, yes, he knows his stuff. Gave me great service.
>>>> Replacement batteries - if needed - I like www.mdsbattery.co.uk
>>>> Occasionally Amazon have batteries at a good price - and zero shipping!
>>>>
>>> My only 'loyalty' to CPC is a morbid curiousity to see how badly
>>>they can package the next order, and a grudging respect for the fact
>>>
>>>
>> Ha yes - the ueber professionals at experimental packing
>>
>It's an artform, they way they do it!
>Still think the time they send me a wooden reel of nice fat UHF coax
>in the same cardboard box as a hundred or so cello-packed DIL ICs
>represents a peak in their stupidity - but yuo never know what they
>might come up with next! <g>
>
I remember 6 light bulbs and 12 x 500g reels of solder for example
--
geoff
John Rumm
or lots of glass dust and two rolls of solder.... ;-)
--
Cheers,
John.
/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Andrew Gabriel
Adrian Brentnall <adr...@ambquality.co.uk> writes:
> js.b1 wrote:
>> Since your runtime requirements are small, the issue is VA rating.
>>
>> Look on Ebay Ireland for refurbished APC SmartUPS 600 or 1000, just
>> make sure the batteries with it are new.
>> You can always sell at nearly the price you paid when the problem is
>> fixed.
>
> Thanks. The only Irish-based one I can see at the moment is a 1500VA -
> start price 1 euro - buy it now 400 euro - lots of phtots but no mention
> of battery condx.
Assume batteries completely shot unless it says otherwise.
Battery life in the APC units is very short too. Anything
over 3 years and you're doing very well. Capacity drops
linearly over time, so if run time is important, you will
have to replace even more frequently, or well-overprovision
from the start. (They aren't all designed as user-replacable
items either, particularly in the smaller units.)
Andrew Gabriel
John Rumm <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> writes:
> geoff wrote:
>>
>> I remember 6 light bulbs and 12 x 500g reels of solder for example
>
> or lots of glass dust and two rolls of solder.... ;-)
A burst packet of D-cells also works well with lightbulbs.
The powdered glass was running out through the box corners
before we even opened it.
Dave Liquorice
> Alternatively there is opensource software called NUT which will allow
> remote monitoring/shutdown of multiple computers (linux or windows) but
> maybe overkill for most users.
NUT is what I use but that is because the server to which the UPS is
connected is linux based. AFAIK there is only a NUT client for doze
and that hasn't really been updated for Vista let alone W7.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Dave Liquorice
> Yes - just wish they'd get thier finger out & find whatever it is that's
> failing....
Keep reporting a "fault" ever time you geta glitch. Try and get your
affected neighbours to do the same.
> Maybe run a ups for my office machine and the outside weather station
> one - my wife's tidier than I am and so her machine tends to be shut
> down to a win desktop when she's not at it...
Hum, I'd say a machine that is being used rather than sat a login
screen is the one that is a more risk from having it's power yanked.
> I guess walking the line is the only solution..?
For something like this quite probably. An insulator failed here and
I think their method of tracking it down was to isolate sections of
line and reapply the power, if it still tripped they hadn't isolated
the fault...
What did please me about that incident was that it was an insulator
at the top of "our" pole that had failed and on one of the
reapplication of powers we happened to be out side and heard the
noise and saw the smoke. Rang 'em up on the faults number and told
them and the message got to the engineers working on the problem in
just a few minutes.
>>> Ah well - we do have a great view ! <g>
>>
>> So do we.
>
> On days when you can actually see it -
> recently it's been a bonus to see the front gate!
If you can't see the valley it's raining.
> Still - we're not flooded!
Nor us, if we get flooded there are going to be really serious
problems below us. Still if people insist on living/building less
than 20' above the normal water level of any water course they can
expect to get flooded.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Geo
>Ha yes - the ueber professionals at experimental packing
This was how a hard disk was packed - just above the cd drive box (no packing
was removed from the box before taking the pic):-
http://www.diy.110mb.com/badpack.jpg
--
Geo
Bob Eager
That's good! I have (on more than one occasion) had a delivery of a large-
ish box with stuff in the bottom. None of those air filled bags to pad it
out.
The hard disk was LOOSE in the box - not even the plastic pack, just in
an antistatic bag.
geoff
<hw9j...@dea.spamcon.org> writes
1/ the box hasn't split
2/ they put a token piece of packing paper in
3/ there are no single items from the sealed pack of 100 wotzits lying
loose in the bottom
4/ no loose shards of what once was a delicate item which required
sensitive packing
and ...
I presume they sent the stuff to the correct address
--
geoff
John Rumm
Added to that, it looks like the drive is in one of those clear plastic
boxes that Seagate developed that actually do a surprisingly good job of
protecting the things.
Grimly Curmudgeon
saying something like:
>This was how a hard disk was packed - just above the cd drive box (no packing
>was removed from the box before taking the pic):-
>http://www.diy.110mb.com/badpack.jpg
Hah, you got the deluxe version with the crumpled brown paper.
I not so fondly recall Northern Tools packaging of an air compressor - a
single skin of cardboard box.
Bob Martin
A company in Hull sent me 3 sheets of 2m x 1m x 4mm polycarbonate
wrapped together in a single sheet of bubble-wrap and delivered by DHL.
Instead of the 3 sheets ordered (£80) I received 8 or 9 pieces.