plastic plumbing vs copper - a moan.
tonyjeffs
Lots of people say how good the plastic pipe is, and it is used on a
lot of newbuild, so I thought I'd try it.
But I hate it. It curls up on itself, you can't put a bend in it,
the joints are huge, and because it is flexable I find I measure it
inaccurately.
So I'm going to bin it and buy some 15mm copper.
What do other people think?
Tony
R D S
I don't like it, it needs wrestling to the wall and always seems to look
contorted.
It can come in handy but I dont think you can beat a rigid, straight
length of copper bracketed firmly to the wall exactly where you want it.
Dave Plowman (News)
<32dc95f6-6371-4c08...@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
I agree. Learning the fairly easy skills to use copper gives a much more
satisfactory job. Plastic is ideal for those who don't have to live with
it afterwards and are only making a quick buck.
--
*Why are a wise man and a wise guy opposites? *
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
tony sayer
s.com>, tonyjeffs <tonyj...@googlemail.com> scribeth thus
You must have money to burn buying copper!....
--
Tony Sayer
Rod
I like it. It does take some getting used to. The joints are (in
general) too bulky. The pipe does tend to curl awkwardly. But the
compensations of being able to get it into places that would otherwise
be very difficult, of (often) having considerable leeway in cutting, of
less condensation on the surface, of quieter flows, of being able to get
a large amount home in a small car, of being able to run 10 metres round
a house as a single, unjoined length, and others - well, these tip the
balance. But I am perfectly happy to use a bit of copper as and when
appropriate.
I'll give you one example. I needed to feed cold water to the downstairs
cloakroom. One pipe down alongside the stack pipe, curved round to
horizontal and a final curve up to the cistern. I'd guess around 4
metres of pipe. Honestly, just getting the run downstairs would have
been awkward in copper. (All behind cupboards, to be boxed in, etc. so
neatness achievable with copper not an issue.) Then, a few weeks ago, I
added an outdoor tap from that same pipe. A simple tee and stop valve
and out through the wall. (Had I used copper originally this would have
resulted in access being a problem for this job.) But I did use a brass
compression joint for the external elbow.
--
Rod
Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
<www.thyromind.info> <www.thyroiduk.org> <www.altsupportthyroid.org>
Dave Liquorice
> I don't like it, it needs wrestling to the wall and always seems to look
> contorted.
>
> It can come in handy but I dont think you can beat a rigid, straight
> length of copper bracketed firmly to the wall exactly where you want it.
I can understand stuff bought by the coil just wanting to be back in the
coil but doesn't the bought straight stuff behave well?
I agree the fittings are a bit big, think I mix 'n match depending on
visibilty. Having spent the best part of two days doing a bathroom mostly
in 22mm copper with a fair few pulled bends next time I'll use plastic if
only 'cause I expect it to be far quicker.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Roger Mills
tonyjeffs <tonyj...@googlemail.com> wrote:
Horses for courses.
Plastic is great for getting into awkward places - threading through joists
etc. - but copper is much better anywhere where it shows. You also need a
length of rigid pipe on kitchen taps installed in SS sinks, to give a bit of
rigidity to the taps.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!
Dave Plowman (News)
Buy it when it's cheap for 'stock'. ;-)
--
*Wrinkled was not one of the things I wanted to be when I grew up
YAPH
You're making a mistake to try to do it /all/ in plastic. It's horses for
courses. I use plastic (polybutylene, not PEX - pb is generally less
springy and easier to handle) for hidden runs in awkward places such as in
underfloor voids, stud walls and ducts, and sometimes for connections to
taps etc under baths, sinks & basins. Where the pipework is going to be
visible or needs to be rigid I use copper.
Likewise with fittings: pushfit in some locations, compression or (for
copper) soldered in others.
In the case of kitchens I will sometimes put in a couple of horizontal
runs of copper along the walls as sort of busbars with washing machine
connectors and feeds to taps and other bits hung off them, feeds of HW in
and CW in and out via plastic - or as appropriate.
--
YAPH -- the professional brand of John D. Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk
A backstreet vasectomy left me sterile
Grimly Curmudgeon
drugs began to take hold. I remember tonyjeffs
<tonyj...@googlemail.com> saying something like:
>Aarrgh - need a break - I'm plumbing a new kitchen.
>
>Lots of people say how good the plastic pipe is, and it is used on a
>lot of newbuild, so I thought I'd try it.
>But I hate it. It curls up on itself, you can't put a bend in it,
>the joints are huge,
Use Tektite.
>and because it is flexable I find I measure it
>inaccurately.
>So I'm going to bin it and buy some 15mm copper.
>
>What do other people think?
I think you need more practice and to get the straight lengths of pipe,
which make it much easier to work with.
John Rumm
> I'll give you one example. I needed to feed cold water to the downstairs
> cloakroom. One pipe down alongside the stack pipe, curved round to
> horizontal and a final curve up to the cistern. I'd guess around 4
> metres of pipe. Honestly, just getting the run downstairs would have
> been awkward in copper. (All behind cupboards, to be boxed in, etc. so
> neatness achievable with copper not an issue.) Then, a few weeks ago, I
> added an outdoor tap from that same pipe. A simple tee and stop valve
> and out through the wall. (Had I used copper originally this would have
> resulted in access being a problem for this job.) But I did use a brass
> compression joint for the external elbow.
Had to do something similar for friend the other day - he wanted a hot
and cold feed from the airing cupboard at one corner of the house, down
to a new cloakroom on the ground floor at the opposing corner. It would
have been seriously disruptive to have done that in rigid pipe. In the
end I opened up a hole above the soffit (chalet style house), fed
several lengths of fibreglass cable fishing rod through from front to
back under the first floor, and pulled through two 14m lengths of PBX.
Ran along the eves above the soffit (heavily lagged!) and back into the
target room, down behind some drylining, round a corner and to the point
the basin would be mounted. Finished off the final connections in
chromed copper.
--
Cheers,
John.
/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Ed Sirett
It is a useful product if not used where it's not meant for.
1) The curviness is both a pain and a help, often the curve will help the
pipes to go where you want. If you are fighting it then you are probably
not using it where its best suited - out of sight.
2) Hep and Speedfit joints are massive but tectite joints are scarecely
bigger than Yorkshire joints.
Under the floor crossing joists you'd have to be seriously masochistic not
to use plastic.
--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
dennis@home
"tonyjeffs" <tonyj...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:32dc95f6-6371-4c08...@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> Aarrgh - need a break - I'm plumbing a new kitchen.
>
> Lots of people say how good the plastic pipe is, and it is used on a
> lot of newbuild, so I thought I'd try it.
> But I hate it. It curls up on itself, you can't put a bend in it,
> the joints are huge,
What joints?
If you use plastic you don't need many joints.
On a new build you would put in a manifold and run a pipe to each outlet
with no joints at all.
Tim S
I'm coming late to this, but I'll put my ha'peth in.
I like copper. It's known to generally last forever (pin-holeing crap
aside). It looks neat when run and it can take a bit of abuse. After a bit
of practise, soldering joints doesn't take very long.
I'm not saying that doesn't apply to decent plastic, but I don't have 1st
hand experience that it does, so I'd rather stay with what I know.
The two things that worry me about plastic are:
1) Will the push-fit grippers give way and blow the joint apart (same with
copper push fit)? My static mains pressure is 7.5 bar (fairly high).
2) How long do those O-rings actually last? I pondered this also after I
unclipped the cooker's from the gas bayonet open the other day...
The answers might well be 1) never and 2) forever, but as I say, no personal
experience...
The price of copper with end feed fittings isn't that much in the grand
scheme of things, once you've got your sinks and radiators, tank(s) and
boiler(s) [hello Drivel].
But in the spirit of trying new things, I'll get a bit of plastic to do some
temporary connections to the bog when I have to clear the old copper and
iron out of the way, just to see what they're like...
Cheers
Tim
Roger Mills
>
> The two things that worry me about plastic are:
>
> 1) Will the push-fit grippers give way and blow the joint apart (same
> with copper push fit)? My static mains pressure is 7.5 bar (fairly
> high).
>
> 2) How long do those O-rings actually last? I pondered this also
> after I unclipped the cooker's from the gas bayonet open the other
> day...
>
Nothing lasts for ever - not even copper. I plumbed my utility room in
plastic nearly 20 years ago - and that's still going strong. It's at the
opposite end of the house to anywhere where there was previously a water
supply - and so involved a tortuous route along the landing and under a
bedroom floor. It was a (relative) doddle to drill the joists and pull a
single length of plastic pipe through rather then trying to wangle copper
in - which would have involved multiple joints.
Tim S
> On 16 Nov,
> Tim S <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
>
>> The two things that worry me about plastic are:
>>
>> 1) Will the push-fit grippers give way and blow the joint apart (same
>> with copper push fit)? My static mains pressure is 7.5 bar (fairly high).
>>
>> 2) How long do those O-rings actually last? I pondered this also after I
>> unclipped the cooker's from the gas bayonet open the other day...
>
> You're not the only one to ponder that. However, you can use compression
> fittings on plastic. Don't forget the sleeves though.
>
Interesting - I'd feel happier with that. Is that the method used to join
MDPE (have to extend a bit of the main)?
Cheers
Tim
tonyjeffs
It ,might be safer if we have a freezing cold spell- it may have some
give, some expansion capacity.
Otoh I could be completely wrong. Those joints might pop off with a
bit of frost.
To
Rod
fittings!
But if it gets truly cold, will turn it off from inside - and, if I
remember, drain it.
PeterMcC
I've had Hep2O fittings crack with frost on outside pipes and, for that
reason, wouldn't recommend them where there is the posibility of them
freezing.
--
PeterMcC
If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
inappropriate or offensive in any way,
please ignore it and accept my apologies.
Dave Liquorice
> But if it gets truly cold, will turn it off from inside - and, if I
> remember, drain it.
Thanks for the reminder, its getting frosty now but only just, not really
frosty of -10C or so.
Draining is important or at least cracking the tap open. I've had a
yorkshire elbow fitting pushed off the pipe by freezing. Do not under
estimate the strength of freezing water...
--
Cheers
Dave.
dennis@home
"Tim S" <t...@dionic.net> wrote in message
news:4920909e$0$499$5a6a...@news.aaisp.net.uk...
> The two things that worry me about plastic are:
>
> 1) Will the push-fit grippers give way and blow the joint apart (same with
> copper push fit)? My static mains pressure is 7.5 bar (fairly high).
>
> 2) How long do those O-rings actually last? I pondered this also after I
> unclipped the cooker's from the gas bayonet open the other day...
I can vouch for 28 years in both mains and CH.
My mains pressure is high enough to explode a watering computer,
I have had to put a 3.5 bar reducer on the garden tap as a result.
Doctor Drivel
"R D S" <rsa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6oabsoF...@mid.individual.net...
You can buy rigid plastic lengths for surface work.
Doctor Drivel
"Ed Sirett" <e...@makewrite.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Of_Tk.95414$mr4....@newsfe19.ams2...
> On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 01:37:12 -0800, tonyjeffs wrote:
>
>> Aarrgh - need a break - I'm plumbing a new kitchen.
>>
>> Lots of people say how good the plastic pipe is, and it is used on a lot
>> of newbuild, so I thought I'd try it. But I hate it. It curls up on
>> itself, you can't put a bend in it, the joints are huge, and because it
>> is flexable I find I measure it inaccurately.
>> So I'm going to bin it and buy some 15mm copper.
>>
>> What do other people think?
>>
> It is a useful product if not used where it's not meant for.
>
> 1) The curviness is both a pain and a help, often the curve will help the
> pipes to go where you want. If you are fighting it then you are probably
> not using it where its best suited - out of sight.
>
> 2) Hep and Speedfit joints are massive but tectite joints are scarecely
> bigger than Yorkshire joints.
Marley Equator are smallish. But I wouldn't use pushfit joints anyway. Best
use Conex on plastic pipe.
> Under the floor crossing joists you'd have to be seriously masochistic not
> to use plastic.
Plastic shines in that. Use an angle drill to drill holes in the centre of
the joist and thread through. The integrity of the joint is not compromised
and the pipe is out of the way of screws and nails.
Doctor Drivel
"dennis@home" <den...@killspam.kicks-ass.net> wrote in message
news:gfptvp$2n6$1...@news.datemas.de...
>
>
> "tonyjeffs" <tonyj...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
> news:32dc95f6-6371-4c08...@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>> Aarrgh - need a break - I'm plumbing a new kitchen.
>>
>> Lots of people say how good the plastic pipe is, and it is used on a
>> lot of newbuild, so I thought I'd try it.
>> But I hate it. It curls up on itself, you can't put a bend in it,
>> the joints are huge,
>
> What joints?
> If you use plastic you don't need many joints.
> On a new build you would put in a manifold and run a pipe to each outlet
> with no joints at all.
You can do that with copper using microbore.
Doctor Drivel
>
>> Aarrgh - need a break - I'm plumbing a new kitchen.
>>
>> Lots of people say how good the plastic pipe is, and it is used on a
>> lot of newbuild, so I thought I'd try it.
>> But I hate it. It curls up on itself, you can't put a bend in it,
>> the joints are huge, and because it is flexable I find I measure it
>> inaccurately.
>> So I'm going to bin it and buy some 15mm copper.
>>
>> What do other people think?
>>
>> Tony
>
> I'm coming late to this, but I'll put my ha'peth in.
>
> I like copper. It's known to generally last forever (pin-holeing crap
> aside). It looks neat when run and it can take a bit of abuse. After a bit
> of practise, soldering joints doesn't take very long.
>
> I'm not saying that doesn't apply to decent plastic, but I don't have 1st
> hand experience that it does, so I'd rather stay with what I know.
>
> The two things that worry me about plastic are:
>
> 1) Will the push-fit grippers give way and blow the joint apart (same with
> copper push fit)? My static mains pressure is 7.5 bar (fairly high).
I would avoid pushfit fittings at 7.5 bar. I have known Hep2O to shoot off a
pipe when a shower tap was closed fast, leaving an open end under a floor.
Failures in plastic joints tend to be catastrophic. I would always have a
shock arrestor on a pushfit plastic installation to protect the joints. I
have known a Speedfit cap shoot off a cylinder and embed itself in the
plaster on the opposite wall. Again an open end gushing.
> 2) How long do those O-rings actually last? I pondered this also after I
> unclipped the cooker's from the gas bayonet open the other day...
Osma Gold's O rings have a "W" shape giving two points of contact. O rings
are used in aviation, however not to the same standard as domestic plumbing.
The snips the makers provide to cut plastic pipes don't help as they leave a
proud sharp point that can nip the O ring. I have looked at many "makers"
cutters and they are waste of expensive time. Rothenburger have brought out
15mm and 22mm "pipe slice" plastic cutters to prevent this. They "turn",
cutting the pipe properly.
http://www.screwfix.com/search.do;jsessionid=ETWULLPLJPGV4CSTHZOSFFY?_dyncharset=UTF-8&fh_search=22344&searchbutton.x=0&searchbutton.y=0&searchbutton=submit
Most plastic pipe site installers would have a Stanley knife in their top
pockets and trim off after feeling around the cut ends after using snips..
dennis@home
"Doctor Drivel" <kill...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:gfrnb1$4i4$3...@news.motzarella.org...
I wouldn't run mains water through 10 m of microbore if I were you.
I certainly wouldn't run gravity fed hot water through 10 m of microbore.
15 mm or 22 mm plastic will work.
>
YAPH
> The snips the makers provide to cut plastic pipes don't help as they
> leave a proud sharp point that can nip the O ring.
Fitting an insert as per the mfr's instructions effectively gives the cut
end a chamfer, protecting the O-ring from the square edge.
--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk
Press any key to continue or any other key to exit
Doctor Drivel
That depends on if you are in a hard water area or not.
Doctor Drivel
"YAPH" <use...@yaph.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ChjUk.95529$AS2....@newsfe20.ams2...
> On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 12:20:21 +0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:
>
>> The snips the makers provide to cut plastic pipes don't help as they
>> leave a proud sharp point that can nip the O ring.
>
> Fitting an insert as per the mfr's instructions effectively gives the cut
> end a chamfer, protecting the O-ring from the square edge.
It doesn't.
Alan Braggins
>On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 12:20:21 +0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:
>
>> The snips the makers provide to cut plastic pipes don't help as they
>> leave a proud sharp point that can nip the O ring.
>
>Fitting an insert as per the mfr's instructions effectively gives the cut
>end a chamfer, protecting the O-ring from the square edge.
The instructions I've seen only want inserts for compression fittings,
for example when joining to copper. And not all insert types give a
chamfer, even if you used them on other joints.
dennis@home
"Doctor Drivel" <kill...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:gft284$gtk$1...@news.motzarella.org...
No it depends on if you want some water to flow at the far end.
Doctor Drivel
You don't know much about this stuff do you? 10mm is more than adequate to
supply a basin, even under gravity. As it is usually all one length of pipe
with no elbows there is invariable less resistance. In fact 6mm is all you
need in most cases using mains pressure. The smaller the pipe the less
dead-leg pipe. In soft water areas smaller pipes sizes supplying sinks and
basins is highly desirable. It is seen on the Continent a lot.
Heliotrope Smith
"Doctor Drivel" <kill...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
some sort of plant pot?
Man at B&Q
> Aarrgh - need a break - I'm plumbing a new kitchen.
>
> Lots of people say how good the plastic pipe is, and it is used on a
> lot of newbuild, so I thought I'd try it.
> But I hate it. It curls up on itself,
Not if you buy the straight stuff.
> you can't put a bend in it,
Yes you can. You can buy formers to hold it in place at the minimum
radius.
> the joints are huge,
So? They're mostly hidden. They're not a lot bigger than copper
compression joints.
> and because it is flexable I find I measure it
> inaccurately.
That's user error.
> So I'm going to bin it and buy some 15mm copper.
Which needs special tools to put a bend in it, is harder to thread
through joists, etc...
MBQ
dennis@home
"Doctor Drivel" <kill...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:gfu9d8$ub8$1...@news.motzarella.org...
You don't have a bath or a shower or a garden tap or anything useful?
John Stumbles
> Who was talking about 10mm pipe? I only saw microbore mentioned, or am I
> some sort of plant pot?
So what do you call microbore: hypodermic needles? :-)
--
John Stumbles
militant pacifist
Heliotrope Smith
"John Stumbles" <john.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:GwFUk.89599$E41....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
Iv'e always considered microbore to be 6mm or less.
Drivel is right in that 10mm is used extensively in France
But of coarse it is virtually all mains fed.
Doctor Drivel
"Heliotrope Smith" <sm...@heliotrope.com> wrote in message
news:49234c85$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
> Iv'e always considered microbore to be 6mm or less.
Correct. Mini-bore above 6mm and small-bore using 15mm.
Doctor Drivel
> or am I
> some sort of plant pot?
You are a plantpot.
Doctor Drivel
You are very confused.
Andy Burns
> Mini-bore above 6mm and small-bore using 15mm.
Does a junior hacksaw suffice for plastic microbore?
Rod
You are at least out of line with some suppliers:
"Microbore Copper Tube 10mm × 25m" - Screwfix
And, in my experience, anyone with CH utilising <15mm pipe calls it
microbore.
Can you refer to an authoritative document for your definition?
tony sayer
Smith <sm...@heliotrope.com> scribeth thus
So it is 10 mm that is.. seen it in mutter in laws gaff.
One interesting thing all the joints seem to be brazed rather than
soldered, any idea why they do that?..
Surely it can't be the mains pressure?..
--
Tony Sayer
Doctor Drivel
"Andy Burns" <usenet....@adslpipe.co.uk> wrote in message
news:NZ-dndasP9Y3zb7U...@posted.plusnet...
> Doctor Drivel wrote:
>
>> Mini-bore above 6mm and small-bore using 15mm.
>
> Does a junior hacksaw suffice for plastic microbore?
Yes.
Doctor Drivel
"Rod" <poly...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:6oi0guF...@mid.individual.net...
> Doctor Drivel wrote:
>>
>> "Heliotrope Smith" <sm...@heliotrope.com> wrote in message
>> news:49234c85$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
>>
>>> Iv'e always considered microbore to be 6mm or less.
>>
>> Correct. Mini-bore above 6mm and small-bore using 15mm.
>
> You are at least out of line with some suppliers:
>
> "Microbore Copper Tube 10mm × 25m" - Screwfix
>
> And, in my experience, anyone with CH utilising <15mm pipe calls it
> microbore.
>
> Can you refer to an authoritative document for your definition?
Yes, me.
YAPH
> One interesting thing all the joints seem to be brazed rather than
> soldered, any idea why they do that?..
>
> Surely it can't be the mains pressure?..
How can you tell - have you tried to unsolder one? If it were for oil I
guess that'd be an acceptable method (brazing or hard soldering).
--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk
This sig intentionally left blank
tony sayer
<use...@yaph.co.uk> scribeth thus
>On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:59:38 +0000, tony sayer wrote:
>
>> One interesting thing all the joints seem to be brazed rather than
>> soldered, any idea why they do that?..
>>
>> Surely it can't be the mains pressure?..
>
>How can you tell - have you tried to unsolder one? If it were for oil I
>guess that'd be an acceptable method (brazing or hard soldering).
>
>
>
Well it looks like braze, its not solder unless they have Yellow
coloured stuff there.
Some Aircon pipe work seems to be done the same way...
--
Tony Sayer
John Stumbles
> Well it looks like braze, its not solder unless they have Yellow
> coloured stuff there.
Is it recent? Could it be that Just for Copper glue stuff?
--
John Stumbles
Life is nature's way of keeping meat fresh
Doctor Drivel
> On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:06:36 +0000, tony sayer wrote:
>
>> Well it looks like braze, its not solder unless they have Yellow
>> coloured stuff there.
>
> Is it recent? Could it be that Just for Copper glue stuff?
I used that 6 months ago. It works.
tony sayer
<kill...@invalid.invalid> scribeth thus
No this was deffo a metal filler they didn't do things like that there
when this was built in the 70's...
--
Tony Sayer
Dave Plowman (News)
Doctor Drivel <kill...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Ah. Yet another try to avoid doing things properly.
--
*(on a baby-size shirt) "Party -- my crib -- two a.m
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Doctor Drivel
"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:50013b6...@davenoise.co.uk...
> In article <gg3f34$4ch$1...@news.motzarella.org>,
> Doctor Drivel <kill...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> "John Stumbles" <john.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>> news:sm1Vk.90186$E41....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>> > On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:06:36 +0000, tony sayer wrote:
>> >
>> >> Well it looks like braze, its not solder unless they have Yellow
>> >> coloured stuff there.
>> >
>> > Is it recent? Could it be that Just for Copper glue stuff?
>
>> I used that 6 months ago. It works.
>
> Ah.
Please eff off as you are an idiotic Jocko plantpot.