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NT
2012年8月25日 16:43:532012/8/25
收件人
Input welcome
NT
==Neon indicator lamp==
[[image:Neon 5503-2.jpg|right|200px]]
These tiny lights are used as indicators. They've been replaced by
LEDs in modern electronics, but are still useful for mains power
indication jobs such as light switches that are remote from the
[[light]] they control.
They're also used to enable finding light switches in the dark. For
this they're wired from switched live to live, so they light only when
the main light is off.
===Types===
Indicator neons come in these types of package:
- just the bare neon
- bare neon plus resistor, shrink wrapped
- in small round housing
- in rectangular housing about 13x28mm
- 4 neons with resistors built into a plastic square ring that mounts
behnd a light switch
- MK gridswitch part
All of these except the first normally come with built in resistor.
===Mounting===
Ways to mount bare neon indicators:
# Drill a tiny hole, and poke the tip of the neon into it
# Fit a translucent plastic spacer behind the switch, with built in
neons and resistor
# Fit a neon in a housing into a suitable round or rectangular hole.
These come in the usual neon colours, red, orange, yellow, green.
# In some situations its sufficient to simply mount the neon behind a
white plastic front, which then glows. Its best suited to dim
locations, light output is low.
Round housed neons go through a drilled panel hole, fixed with a nut.
Rectangular housed neons sit in a rectangular hole. Making these holes
without a suitable punch is a real pita. The housing simply presses in
place. To remove one, compress the 2 plastic fingers that hold it in
place.
Light-up switch rings simply sit behind the switch faceplate.
Gridswitch parts fit the MK gridswitch system.
===Resistor===
Indicator neons must be operated in series with a suitable resistor,
usually 220k for 240v operation. Failure to do so results in prompt
failure. Most neon indicators have this built in, but neons without it
are also available. A 240v rating means the resistor is built in.
If providing your own resistor, it must be 400v rated, and typical
0.3w carbon film resistors are 200v rated. Use 2x 120k 200v resistors
in series.)
==Neon flickering candle lamp==
Small imitation candle bulbs, the light sources moves about as it
operates. These give out very little light.
==Neon screwdriver==
An unsafe voltage detector. See [[Neon screwdriver]]
==Obsolete neon devices==
===Sign lighting===
Neon gas filled shaped tubes were historically once in advertising,
coloured to produce red, yellow, orange or green light. Modern
coloured tubing is [[fluorescent]].
===Neon lamp===
Long obsolete, neon lightbulbs of a few watts were once used for low
level general [[lighting]]. The light is yellow-orange.
===Neon tuning indicator===
A column shaped neon used in some pre-war radios. The height of the
glow is proportional to the current through them.
===Neon regulator===
Indicator neons were once used as voltage regulators at about 90v. 3
terminal neons were once used as voltage limiters in some old dial
telephones.
==Light colour==
The yellow-orange light is a mixture of red, orange, yellow and green
light. Colour filters are often added externally to give any of these
colours. 'Blue neons' really contain other gases.
==Life expectancy==
[[image:Neon black 5578-2.jpg|right|200px]]
Life expectancy of neon lights varies widely, with indicators lasting
years, but often not for the life of the product they're in. They last
longest in situations where they're not on all the time.
Light output deteriorates a lot over time. The most common failure
mode is blackening of the bulb. The neon pictured above still works
electrically, but emits no light.
A secondary failure mode is loss of emission. Loss of emission causes
[[dim]]ming, flickering, then failure.
Life expectancy to the power of 3.5 is proportional to current, so
life
can be much increased by reducing run current. A 10% drop in current
gives a 44% gain in lifetime.
[[Category:Lighting]]
NT
==Neon indicator lamp==
[[image:Neon 5503-2.jpg|right|200px]]
These tiny lights are used as indicators. They've been replaced by
LEDs in modern electronics, but are still useful for mains power
indication jobs such as light switches that are remote from the
[[light]] they control.
They're also used to enable finding light switches in the dark. For
this they're wired from switched live to live, so they light only when
the main light is off.
===Types===
Indicator neons come in these types of package:
- just the bare neon
- bare neon plus resistor, shrink wrapped
- in small round housing
- in rectangular housing about 13x28mm
- 4 neons with resistors built into a plastic square ring that mounts
behnd a light switch
- MK gridswitch part
All of these except the first normally come with built in resistor.
===Mounting===
Ways to mount bare neon indicators:
# Drill a tiny hole, and poke the tip of the neon into it
# Fit a translucent plastic spacer behind the switch, with built in
neons and resistor
# Fit a neon in a housing into a suitable round or rectangular hole.
These come in the usual neon colours, red, orange, yellow, green.
# In some situations its sufficient to simply mount the neon behind a
white plastic front, which then glows. Its best suited to dim
locations, light output is low.
Round housed neons go through a drilled panel hole, fixed with a nut.
Rectangular housed neons sit in a rectangular hole. Making these holes
without a suitable punch is a real pita. The housing simply presses in
place. To remove one, compress the 2 plastic fingers that hold it in
place.
Light-up switch rings simply sit behind the switch faceplate.
Gridswitch parts fit the MK gridswitch system.
===Resistor===
Indicator neons must be operated in series with a suitable resistor,
usually 220k for 240v operation. Failure to do so results in prompt
failure. Most neon indicators have this built in, but neons without it
are also available. A 240v rating means the resistor is built in.
If providing your own resistor, it must be 400v rated, and typical
0.3w carbon film resistors are 200v rated. Use 2x 120k 200v resistors
in series.)
==Neon flickering candle lamp==
Small imitation candle bulbs, the light sources moves about as it
operates. These give out very little light.
==Neon screwdriver==
An unsafe voltage detector. See [[Neon screwdriver]]
==Obsolete neon devices==
===Sign lighting===
Neon gas filled shaped tubes were historically once in advertising,
coloured to produce red, yellow, orange or green light. Modern
coloured tubing is [[fluorescent]].
===Neon lamp===
Long obsolete, neon lightbulbs of a few watts were once used for low
level general [[lighting]]. The light is yellow-orange.
===Neon tuning indicator===
A column shaped neon used in some pre-war radios. The height of the
glow is proportional to the current through them.
===Neon regulator===
Indicator neons were once used as voltage regulators at about 90v. 3
terminal neons were once used as voltage limiters in some old dial
telephones.
==Light colour==
The yellow-orange light is a mixture of red, orange, yellow and green
light. Colour filters are often added externally to give any of these
colours. 'Blue neons' really contain other gases.
==Life expectancy==
[[image:Neon black 5578-2.jpg|right|200px]]
Life expectancy of neon lights varies widely, with indicators lasting
years, but often not for the life of the product they're in. They last
longest in situations where they're not on all the time.
Light output deteriorates a lot over time. The most common failure
mode is blackening of the bulb. The neon pictured above still works
electrically, but emits no light.
A secondary failure mode is loss of emission. Loss of emission causes
[[dim]]ming, flickering, then failure.
Life expectancy to the power of 3.5 is proportional to current, so
life
can be much increased by reducing run current. A 10% drop in current
gives a 44% gain in lifetime.
[[Category:Lighting]]
Andrew Gabriel
2012年8月25日 17:50:072012/8/25
收件人
In article <953e66b9-08a8-4012...@b10g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
which is not great as most of the light is emitted from the
sides (specifically, from around the cathode, as at the low
currents these operate, visible light is only generated in
the cathode fall region).
> # Fit a translucent plastic spacer behind the switch, with built in
> neons and resistor
> # Fit a neon in a housing into a suitable round or rectangular hole.
> These come in the usual neon colours, red, orange, yellow, green.
Green ones are not neon, and use a fluorescent phosphor with some
other gas discharge. The discharge colour is dim white from the end
of the glass where there's no phosphor, but the green phosphor is
brighter. (OK, you can get neon lamps with green lenses, but the
light output isn't anything like green - brown would be a better
description;-)
Incidently, neon indicators all have argon in them too, or the
breakdown voltage would be too high to use on 120V US mains.
The argon reduces the breakdown voltage to 90V and the running
voltage to 60V. The real green ones can't be used on 120V mains
as the breakdown voltage is too high.
> # In some situations its sufficient to simply mount the neon behind a
> white plastic front, which then glows. Its best suited to dim
> locations, light output is low.
>
> Round housed neons go through a drilled panel hole, fixed with a nut.
>
> Rectangular housed neons sit in a rectangular hole. Making these holes
> without a suitable punch is a real pita. The housing simply presses in
> place. To remove one, compress the 2 plastic fingers that hold it in
> place.
>
> Light-up switch rings simply sit behind the switch faceplate.
>
> Gridswitch parts fit the MK gridswitch system.
>
>
> ===Resistor===
> Indicator neons must be operated in series with a suitable resistor,
> usually 220k for 240v operation. Failure to do so results in prompt
That would be a 1mA indicator. The smaller ones run at lower currents,
I think down to 0.25mA in the smallest.
> failure. Most neon indicators have this built in, but neons without it
> are also available. A 240v rating means the resistor is built in.
>
> If providing your own resistor, it must be 400v rated, and typical
> 0.3w carbon film resistors are 200v rated. Use 2x 120k 200v resistors
> in series.)
>
>
> ==Neon flickering candle lamp==
> Small imitation candle bulbs, the light sources moves about as it
> operates. These give out very little light.
These work by underrunning the neon so that there isn't enough
current to generate a discharge over the whole cathode, and
convection, photons, and other random events cause the discharge
area to move over the electrode.
> ==Neon screwdriver==
> An unsafe voltage detector. See [[Neon screwdriver]]
>
>
> ==Obsolete neon devices==
> ===Sign lighting===
> Neon gas filled shaped tubes were historically once in advertising,
> coloured to produce red, yellow, orange or green light. Modern
> coloured tubing is [[fluorescent]].
Other gasses, sometimes with phosphors, were used to generate the
other colours (and still are, in so far as the technology has
mostly been replaced by LEDs now).
> ===Neon lamp===
> Long obsolete, neon lightbulbs of a few watts were once used for low
> level general [[lighting]]. The light is yellow-orange.
>
> ===Neon tuning indicator===
> A column shaped neon used in some pre-war radios. The height of the
> glow is proportional to the current through them.
>
> ===Neon regulator===
> Indicator neons were once used as voltage regulators at about 90v. 3
> terminal neons were once used as voltage limiters in some old dial
> telephones.
>
>
> ==Light colour==
> The yellow-orange light is a mixture of red, orange, yellow and green
> light. Colour filters are often added externally to give any of these
> colours. 'Blue neons' really contain other gases.
>
>
> ==Life expectancy==
> [[image:Neon black 5578-2.jpg|right|200px]]
>
> Life expectancy of neon lights varies widely, with indicators lasting
> years, but often not for the life of the product they're in. They last
> longest in situations where they're not on all the time.
>
> Light output deteriorates a lot over time. The most common failure
> mode is blackening of the bulb. The neon pictured above still works
> electrically, but emits no light.
sputtering of the electrodes.
> A secondary failure mode is loss of emission. Loss of emission causes
> [[dim]]ming, flickering, then failure.
I don't think there's any emission material used in neon indicator lamps.
> Life expectancy to the power of 3.5 is proportional to current, so
> life
> can be much increased by reducing run current. A 10% drop in current
> gives a 44% gain in lifetime.
>
>
> [[Category:Lighting]]
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
sides (specifically, from around the cathode, as at the low
currents these operate, visible light is only generated in
the cathode fall region).
> # Fit a translucent plastic spacer behind the switch, with built in
> neons and resistor
> # Fit a neon in a housing into a suitable round or rectangular hole.
> These come in the usual neon colours, red, orange, yellow, green.
other gas discharge. The discharge colour is dim white from the end
of the glass where there's no phosphor, but the green phosphor is
brighter. (OK, you can get neon lamps with green lenses, but the
light output isn't anything like green - brown would be a better
description;-)
Incidently, neon indicators all have argon in them too, or the
breakdown voltage would be too high to use on 120V US mains.
The argon reduces the breakdown voltage to 90V and the running
voltage to 60V. The real green ones can't be used on 120V mains
as the breakdown voltage is too high.
> # In some situations its sufficient to simply mount the neon behind a
> white plastic front, which then glows. Its best suited to dim
> locations, light output is low.
>
> Round housed neons go through a drilled panel hole, fixed with a nut.
>
> Rectangular housed neons sit in a rectangular hole. Making these holes
> without a suitable punch is a real pita. The housing simply presses in
> place. To remove one, compress the 2 plastic fingers that hold it in
> place.
>
> Light-up switch rings simply sit behind the switch faceplate.
>
> Gridswitch parts fit the MK gridswitch system.
>
>
> ===Resistor===
> Indicator neons must be operated in series with a suitable resistor,
> usually 220k for 240v operation. Failure to do so results in prompt
I think down to 0.25mA in the smallest.
> failure. Most neon indicators have this built in, but neons without it
> are also available. A 240v rating means the resistor is built in.
>
> If providing your own resistor, it must be 400v rated, and typical
> 0.3w carbon film resistors are 200v rated. Use 2x 120k 200v resistors
> in series.)
>
>
> ==Neon flickering candle lamp==
> Small imitation candle bulbs, the light sources moves about as it
> operates. These give out very little light.
current to generate a discharge over the whole cathode, and
convection, photons, and other random events cause the discharge
area to move over the electrode.
> ==Neon screwdriver==
> An unsafe voltage detector. See [[Neon screwdriver]]
>
>
> ==Obsolete neon devices==
> ===Sign lighting===
> Neon gas filled shaped tubes were historically once in advertising,
> coloured to produce red, yellow, orange or green light. Modern
> coloured tubing is [[fluorescent]].
other colours (and still are, in so far as the technology has
mostly been replaced by LEDs now).
> ===Neon lamp===
> Long obsolete, neon lightbulbs of a few watts were once used for low
> level general [[lighting]]. The light is yellow-orange.
>
> ===Neon tuning indicator===
> A column shaped neon used in some pre-war radios. The height of the
> glow is proportional to the current through them.
>
> ===Neon regulator===
> Indicator neons were once used as voltage regulators at about 90v. 3
> terminal neons were once used as voltage limiters in some old dial
> telephones.
>
>
> ==Light colour==
> The yellow-orange light is a mixture of red, orange, yellow and green
> light. Colour filters are often added externally to give any of these
> colours. 'Blue neons' really contain other gases.
>
>
> ==Life expectancy==
> [[image:Neon black 5578-2.jpg|right|200px]]
>
> Life expectancy of neon lights varies widely, with indicators lasting
> years, but often not for the life of the product they're in. They last
> longest in situations where they're not on all the time.
>
> Light output deteriorates a lot over time. The most common failure
> mode is blackening of the bulb. The neon pictured above still works
> electrically, but emits no light.
> A secondary failure mode is loss of emission. Loss of emission causes
> [[dim]]ming, flickering, then failure.
> Life expectancy to the power of 3.5 is proportional to current, so
> life
> can be much increased by reducing run current. A 10% drop in current
> gives a 44% gain in lifetime.
>
>
> [[Category:Lighting]]
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
HN
2012年8月25日 18:15:252012/8/25
收件人
On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 21:50:07 +0000 (UTC), and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
>In article <953e66b9-08a8-4012...@b10g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
> NT <meow...@care2.com> writes:
>> Input welcome
I would be tempted to use an LED with maybe a "wattles dropper". I
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
>In article <953e66b9-08a8-4012...@b10g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
> NT <meow...@care2.com> writes:
>> Input welcome
haven't actually seen the configuration but a LED is a far superior
light source and the power consumption while being greater would still
have a negligible effect on the utility bill.
Incidentally I agree totally with the previous poster. I have used
"green" neon indicators. any resemblance to green totally disappears
on power up.
HN
NT
2012年8月25日 19:55:542012/8/25
收件人
On Aug 25, 10:50 pm, and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel)
wrote:
> In article <953e66b9-08a8-4012-b234-dfc216eb9...@b10g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
nonetheless it works very well in practice. The visible spot is tiny
but much intenser than seeing the neon side on. The optics are a bit
beyond me, I presume the glass redirects the light somehow.
> > # Fit a translucent plastic spacer behind the switch, with built in
> > neons and resistor
> > # Fit a neon in a housing into a suitable round or rectangular hole.
> > These come in the usual neon colours, red, orange, yellow, green.
>
> Green ones are not neon, and use a fluorescent phosphor with some
> other gas discharge. The discharge colour is dim white from the end
> of the glass where there's no phosphor, but the green phosphor is
> brighter. (OK, you can get neon lamps with green lenses, but the
> light output isn't anything like green - brown would be a better
> description;-)
corrected, ta
ok, I'll include it
NT
wrote:
> In article <953e66b9-08a8-4012-b234-dfc216eb9...@b10g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
but much intenser than seeing the neon side on. The optics are a bit
beyond me, I presume the glass redirects the light somehow.
> > # Fit a translucent plastic spacer behind the switch, with built in
> > neons and resistor
> > # Fit a neon in a housing into a suitable round or rectangular hole.
> > These come in the usual neon colours, red, orange, yellow, green.
>
> Green ones are not neon, and use a fluorescent phosphor with some
> other gas discharge. The discharge colour is dim white from the end
> of the glass where there's no phosphor, but the green phosphor is
> brighter. (OK, you can get neon lamps with green lenses, but the
> light output isn't anything like green - brown would be a better
> description;-)
NT
2012年8月25日 19:58:052012/8/25
收件人
On Aug 25, 11:15 pm, HN <blenkins...@mail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 21:50:07 +0000 (UTC), and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk
>
> (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
> >In article <953e66b9-08a8-4012-b234-dfc216eb9...@b10g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
> On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 21:50:07 +0000 (UTC), and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk
>
> (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
> > NT <meow2...@care2.com> writes:
> >> Input welcome
>
> I would be tempted to use an LED with maybe a "wattles dropper". I
> haven't actually seen the configuration but a LED is a far superior
> light source and the power consumption while being greater would still
> have a negligible effect on the utility bill.
>
> Incidentally I agree totally with the previous poster. I have used
> "green" neon indicators. any resemblance to green totally disappears
> on power up.
>
> HN
The downside with LEDs is theyre a lot more complex. You cant rely on
> >> Input welcome
>
> I would be tempted to use an LED with maybe a "wattles dropper". I
> haven't actually seen the configuration but a LED is a far superior
> light source and the power consumption while being greater would still
> have a negligible effect on the utility bill.
>
> Incidentally I agree totally with the previous poster. I have used
> "green" neon indicators. any resemblance to green totally disappears
> on power up.
>
> HN
a capacitor balalst with LEDs because they produce a large surge
current. You cant put them in series with a lap without adding
complications because again filament lamps produce a large surge.
Neons are as easy as can be, hence they're still used for mains
indication.
NT
Graham.
2012年8月25日 20:12:292012/8/25
收件人
light on a 6 transistor retro-fit stereo decoder board I bought in
about 1969.
There was an overwind on the 19KHz tuned circuit that produced enough
voltage to illuminate it when the pilot-tone was present.
(It was still the practice of the broadcasters at that time to kill
the subcarrier and pilot tone during mono programmes).
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Archibald
2012年8月25日 20:18:282012/8/25
收件人
On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 16:58:05 -0700 (PDT), NT <meow...@care2.com>
wrote:
I agree. With the addition of a zener and a resistor though, you would
still have a cheap low current indicator.
One downside of neons is their sensitivity. I watched an electrician
some years back struggling to diagnose an o/c neutral. He didn't
realise that the indicator was like via leakage to ground :-)
HN
wrote:
still have a cheap low current indicator.
One downside of neons is their sensitivity. I watched an electrician
some years back struggling to diagnose an o/c neutral. He didn't
realise that the indicator was like via leakage to ground :-)
HN
Thomas Prufer
2012年8月26日 03:53:472012/8/26
收件人
On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 13:43:53 -0700 (PDT), NT <meow...@care2.com> wrote:
>They're also used to enable finding light switches in the dark. For
>this they're wired from switched live to live, so they light only when
>the main light is off.
Neon bulbs, as they age, become light sensitive, which is particularly annoying
>They're also used to enable finding light switches in the dark. For
>this they're wired from switched live to live, so they light only when
>the main light is off.
if they are use to illuminate light switches: If there is ambient light, they
glow, if it is dark, they don't...
A reference here:
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups=#!topic/alt.energy.high-voltage/xjBS8QkKxJw
Thomas Prufer
Andrew Gabriel
2012年8月26日 04:48:062012/8/26
收件人
In article <dkkj38dlsh9b8l0bf...@4ax.com>,
This is on 120V mains, where they are marginal anyway (need dosing
with argon to work reliably). You won't see this on 200-240V mains.
Neon lamps can be used as crude photon detectors if you try running
them just under their striking voltage, and rely on photons to strike
them. That's basically what's happening there, and the US have same
problem with fluorescent lamp starters, which they solve by adding
a small level of radioactivity to them.
with argon to work reliably). You won't see this on 200-240V mains.
Neon lamps can be used as crude photon detectors if you try running
them just under their striking voltage, and rely on photons to strike
them. That's basically what's happening there, and the US have same
problem with fluorescent lamp starters, which they solve by adding
a small level of radioactivity to them.
Brian Gaff
2012年8月26日 05:45:432012/8/26
收件人
In the time of valve equipment neons often used to be used like Zener
Diodes, but for higher voltages as one they struck they were effectively a
short circuit.
I can recall looking in the back of an early Bush colour tv and seeing all
those little glowing stabiliser neons.
does anyone rember the old Decimo digital clocks with giant figures. they
used neons poked in the back of the segmants opperated by a sequencer
attached to the clock mechanism. The snag was that the neons tended to go
black inside and then had to be changed one at a time. Very time consuming.
Brian
--
--
From the sofa of Brian Gaff -
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"NT" <meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:953e66b9-08a8-4012...@b10g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
Diodes, but for higher voltages as one they struck they were effectively a
short circuit.
I can recall looking in the back of an early Bush colour tv and seeing all
those little glowing stabiliser neons.
does anyone rember the old Decimo digital clocks with giant figures. they
used neons poked in the back of the segmants opperated by a sequencer
attached to the clock mechanism. The snag was that the neons tended to go
black inside and then had to be changed one at a time. Very time consuming.
Brian
--
--
From the sofa of Brian Gaff -
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"NT" <meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:953e66b9-08a8-4012...@b10g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
HN
2012年8月26日 07:05:332012/8/26
收件人
triggered through a neon bulb [a CR time constant delayed the build up
to the neon striking voltage, thus changing the point in the mains
cycle where conduction would start].
It was a pile of junk! The Voltage, hence picture size was dependent
on the light shinind through the slots in the TV back.
Even when the neon was painted black there were still problems.
Only when they changed to a diac did the problems diminish.
The problem was known as the BT106 bounce. Sadly the BT106 was the
thyristor. The real culprit never got a mention.
Years later at Uni studying physics, we had a lunatic experiment
identifying CR networks using a neon and a stopwatch. This being in a
brightly lit lab with flourescent lighting.
My errors were extremely high and as usual the lecturer assumed it was
down to human error.
I repeated the experiments in my workshop. both with similar lighting
and with just enough daylight to see what I was doing.
Once again my similar results showed that university lecturers have no
idea of the real world.
It also suggested that the rest of the students altered the figures to
suit the theory, but they new what to aim for and didn't work in an
MOD calibration laboratory, where measurements were recorded even if
they did not meet expectations.
HN
Graham.
2012年8月26日 10:20:192012/8/26
收件人
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Graham.
2012年8月26日 11:07:312012/8/26
收件人
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 12:05:33 +0100, HN <blenk...@mail.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 09:53:47 +0200, Thomas Prufer
><prufer...@mnet-online.de.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 13:43:53 -0700 (PDT), NT <meow...@care2.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>They're also used to enable finding light switches in the dark. For
>>>this they're wired from switched live to live, so they light only when
>>>the main light is off.
>>
>>Neon bulbs, as they age, become light sensitive, which is particularly annoying
>>if they are use to illuminate light switches: If there is ambient light, they
>>glow, if it is dark, they don't...
>>
>>A reference here:
>>
>>https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups=#!topic/alt.energy.high-voltage/xjBS8QkKxJw
>>
>>
>>Thomas Prufer
>A well known problem. The early Bush colour TV's had a thyristor
>triggered through a neon bulb [a CR time constant delayed the build up
>to the neon striking voltage, thus changing the point in the mains
>cycle where conduction would start].
>
>It was a pile of junk! The Voltage, hence picture size was dependent
>on the light shinind through the slots in the TV back.
>
>Even when the neon was painted black there were still problems.
>
>Only when they changed to a diac did the problems diminish.
>
>The problem was known as the BT106 bounce. Sadly the BT106 was the
>thyristor. The real culprit never got a mention.
I wonder what chassis that was, I suspect it was a dual standard
>On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 09:53:47 +0200, Thomas Prufer
><prufer...@mnet-online.de.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 13:43:53 -0700 (PDT), NT <meow...@care2.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>They're also used to enable finding light switches in the dark. For
>>>this they're wired from switched live to live, so they light only when
>>>the main light is off.
>>
>>Neon bulbs, as they age, become light sensitive, which is particularly annoying
>>if they are use to illuminate light switches: If there is ambient light, they
>>glow, if it is dark, they don't...
>>
>>A reference here:
>>
>>https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups=#!topic/alt.energy.high-voltage/xjBS8QkKxJw
>>
>>
>>Thomas Prufer
>A well known problem. The early Bush colour TV's had a thyristor
>triggered through a neon bulb [a CR time constant delayed the build up
>to the neon striking voltage, thus changing the point in the mains
>cycle where conduction would start].
>
>It was a pile of junk! The Voltage, hence picture size was dependent
>on the light shinind through the slots in the TV back.
>
>Even when the neon was painted black there were still problems.
>
>Only when they changed to a diac did the problems diminish.
>
>The problem was known as the BT106 bounce. Sadly the BT106 was the
>thyristor. The real culprit never got a mention.
colour set and therefore slightly outside my experience.
Retrieved from the gas meter cupboard is the remains of the PSU from
a later single-standard R.B.M. set.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/g3zvt/7864441424/in/photostream/lightbox/
No neon to blame, but it certainly was troublesome in spite of (or
maybe because of) its simplicity.
I thought it did use a BR100 in the gate circuit, but I can't see it
(or where it was) so maybe I was mistaken.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Graham.
2012年8月26日 11:21:342012/8/26
收件人
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 10:45:43 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
<bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>In the time of valve equipment neons often used to be used like Zener
>Diodes, but for higher voltages as one they struck they were effectively a
>short circuit.
> I can recall looking in the back of an early Bush colour tv and seeing all
>those little glowing stabiliser neons.
I don't remember that, in fact I don't remember any domestic
<bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>In the time of valve equipment neons often used to be used like Zener
>Diodes, but for higher voltages as one they struck they were effectively a
>short circuit.
> I can recall looking in the back of an early Bush colour tv and seeing all
>those little glowing stabiliser neons.
electronics that used neon stabilisers.
I certainly used them in my home built transmitters, to stabilise the
VFO HT. 150B2 comes to mind, with a B9A base.
Little indicator neons sometimes formed an active part of the
circuitry in tellys to "latch" the selected channel, as well as to
indicate it was selected.
Granada TV Rental had a number of sets that did that, we called it
Sensomatic channel change. You just touched one of 8 metal squares
with your finger. In damp houses they would change randomly, and when
the well used neons aged, usually 1 & 3 it became difficult to select
those channels.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
HN
2012年8月26日 10:33:492012/8/26
收件人
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:07:31 +0100, Graham. <m...@privacy.net.invalid>
I hate to disillusion, but that's a GEC PSU. Same principle but more
reliable [that is, if they ever produced a properly soldered double
sided board].
I forget the Bush chassis, maybe an A823. The Bush was single
standard, came in a variety of obcene colours and didn't have a
reference oscillator for the decoder.
The Bush PSU was very memorable, the 18V zener to the decoder was
earthed only by chassis to print contact, so powering up with the PSU
in "visible print mode", did the SL901B in. A dashed expensive chip in
those days.
HN
reliable [that is, if they ever produced a properly soldered double
sided board].
I forget the Bush chassis, maybe an A823. The Bush was single
standard, came in a variety of obcene colours and didn't have a
reference oscillator for the decoder.
The Bush PSU was very memorable, the 18V zener to the decoder was
earthed only by chassis to print contact, so powering up with the PSU
in "visible print mode", did the SL901B in. A dashed expensive chip in
those days.
HN
Graham.
2012年8月26日 12:54:272012/8/26
收件人
hesitate to remind me, at midnight tonight I will enter my 60th year.
I need say no more.
Yes I remember now, the Bush has two pots, the second one for over
voltage threshold. The correct set-up procedure was a bit messy
involving (IIRC) adding a resistor, so people had their own empiric
method of setting it.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
NT
2012年8月26日 13:04:572012/8/26
收件人
On Aug 26, 3:33 pm, HN <blenkins...@mail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:07:31 +0100, Graham. <m...@privacy.net.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 12:05:33 +0100, HN <blenkins...@mail.com> wrote:
>
> >>On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 09:53:47 +0200, Thomas Prufer
> >><prufer.pub...@mnet-online.de.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:07:31 +0100, Graham. <m...@privacy.net.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 12:05:33 +0100, HN <blenkins...@mail.com> wrote:
>
> >>On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 09:53:47 +0200, Thomas Prufer
>
> >>>On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 13:43:53 -0700 (PDT), NT <meow2...@care2.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>They're also used to enable finding light switches in the dark. For
> >>>>this they're wired from switched live to live, so they light only when
> >>>>the main light is off.
>
> >>>Neon bulbs, as they age, become light sensitive, which is particularly annoying
> >>>if they are use to illuminate light switches: If there is ambient light, they
> >>>glow, if it is dark, they don't...
>
> >>>A reference here:
>
> >>>https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups=#!topic/alt.energy....
> >>>On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 13:43:53 -0700 (PDT), NT <meow2...@care2.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>They're also used to enable finding light switches in the dark. For
> >>>>this they're wired from switched live to live, so they light only when
> >>>>the main light is off.
>
> >>>Neon bulbs, as they age, become light sensitive, which is particularly annoying
> >>>if they are use to illuminate light switches: If there is ambient light, they
> >>>glow, if it is dark, they don't...
>
> >>>A reference here:
>
>
> >>>Thomas Prufer
> >>A well known problem. The early Bush colour TV's had a thyristor
> >>triggered through a neon bulb [a CR time constant delayed the build up
> >>to the neon striking voltage, thus changing the point in the mains
> >>cycle where conduction would start].
>
> >>It was a pile of junk! The Voltage, hence picture size was dependent
> >>on the light shinind through the slots in the TV back.
>
> >>Even when the neon was painted black there were still problems.
>
> >>Only when they changed to a diac did the problems diminish.
>
> >>The problem was known as the BT106 bounce. Sadly the BT106 was the
> >>thyristor. The real culprit never got a mention.
>
> >I wonder what chassis that was, I suspect it was a dual standard
> >colour set and therefore slightly outside my experience.
>
> >Retrieved from the gas meter cupboard is the remains of the PSU from
> >a later single-standard R.B.M. set.
> >http://www.flickr.com/photos/g3zvt/7864441424/in/photostream/lightbox/
> >No neon to blame, but it certainly was troublesome in spite of (or
> >maybe because of) its simplicity.
>
> >I thought it did use a BR100 in the gate circuit, but I can't see it
> >(or where it was) so maybe I was mistaken.
>
> I hate to disillusion, but that's a GEC PSU. Same principle but more
> reliable [that is, if they ever produced a properly soldered double
> sided board].
I think GEC sets of a certain era must have been soldered by monkeys.
> >>>Thomas Prufer
> >>A well known problem. The early Bush colour TV's had a thyristor
> >>triggered through a neon bulb [a CR time constant delayed the build up
> >>to the neon striking voltage, thus changing the point in the mains
> >>cycle where conduction would start].
>
> >>It was a pile of junk! The Voltage, hence picture size was dependent
> >>on the light shinind through the slots in the TV back.
>
> >>Even when the neon was painted black there were still problems.
>
> >>Only when they changed to a diac did the problems diminish.
>
> >>The problem was known as the BT106 bounce. Sadly the BT106 was the
> >>thyristor. The real culprit never got a mention.
>
> >I wonder what chassis that was, I suspect it was a dual standard
> >colour set and therefore slightly outside my experience.
>
> >Retrieved from the gas meter cupboard is the remains of the PSU from
> >a later single-standard R.B.M. set.
> >http://www.flickr.com/photos/g3zvt/7864441424/in/photostream/lightbox/
> >No neon to blame, but it certainly was troublesome in spite of (or
> >maybe because of) its simplicity.
>
> >I thought it did use a BR100 in the gate circuit, but I can't see it
> >(or where it was) so maybe I was mistaken.
>
> I hate to disillusion, but that's a GEC PSU. Same principle but more
> reliable [that is, if they ever produced a properly soldered double
> sided board].
Its hard to believe even a young child could have soldered them so
badly.
NT
Graham.
2012年8月26日 14:22:162012/8/26
收件人
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 10:04:57 -0700 (PDT), NT <meow...@care2.com>
wrote:
It was largely because the print was plated on rather than etched off.
It was almost impossible to rework without it lifting off the board.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
wrote:
It was almost impossible to rework without it lifting off the board.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
NT
2012年8月26日 14:34:012012/8/26
收件人
On Aug 26, 7:22 pm, Graham. <m...@privacy.net.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 10:04:57 -0700 (PDT), NT <meow2...@care2.com>
how does that stop one soldering to it properly?
ISTR the holes being excessively big too
NT
> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 10:04:57 -0700 (PDT), NT <meow2...@care2.com>
ISTR the holes being excessively big too
NT
NT
2012年8月26日 16:46:282012/8/26
收件人
On Aug 25, 9:43 pm, NT <meow2...@care2.com> wrote:
> Input welcome
>
> NT
latest version...
Neon
==Neon indicator lamp==
[[image:Neon 5503-2.jpg|right|200px]]
[[image:Glimmlampe_spektrum.jpg|right|200px]]
These tiny lights are used as indicators. They've been replaced by
[[LED]]s in modern electronics, but are still useful for mains power
held by the faceplate screws.
Gridswitch parts fit the MK gridswitch system.
===Resistor===
[[image:Resistors 2757-3.jpg|right|200px]]
Indicator neons must be operated in series with a suitable resistor,
usually 220k for 1mA 240v operation. Failure to do so results in
is most common. If the light source moves about unstably in the lamp
its running below rated current.
==Neon flickering candle lamp==
Small imitation candle bulbs, the light sources moves about as it
operates. These give out very little light.
They work by underrunning the neon so that there isn't enough current
[[image:Phasenpruefer_01-l_KMJ.jpg|right|200px]]
An unsafe voltage detector. See [[Neon screwdriver]]
==Sign lighting==
[[image:Ohare_Neon_Walkway.jpg|right|200px]]
Neon gas filled shaped tubes were used in advertising, coloured to
produce red, yellow & orange light. Modern coloured tubing uses other
gases too and is mostly [[fluorescent]].
==Obsolete neon devices==
[[image:Nixie2.gif|right]]
===Neon lamp===
[[image:NE-34 LAMP.JPG|right|200px]]
Neon lightbulbs of a few watts were once used for low level general
[[lighting]]. The light is yellow-orange. Sometimes the electrodes
were shaped into novelty designs. They were even used as part of tv
displays in 1920s mechanically scanned tvs. They fell out of favour in
the 1930s.
===Neon tuning indicator===
A column shaped neon used in some pre-war radios. The height of the
glow is proportional to the current through them.
===Neon regulator===
Indicator neons were once used as voltage regulators at about 90v. 3
terminal neons (NE-77) were once used as voltage limiters in some old
dial telephones.
==Light colour==
The orange light is a mixture of red, orange & yellow light. Colour
filters are often added externally to give any of these colours, or to
improve on/off contrast with orange. Green, blue and white neons
really contain other gases, and fluoresce.
Neon filled neons with a green plastic cover also exist, but don't
actually produce green light.
==Energy efficiency==
Neons are several times the efficacy of filament lamps. However the
power levels used are so miniscule as to be of no consequence. Neon
indicators don't warm up in use.
==Life expectancy==
[[image:Neon black 5578-2.jpg|right|200px]]
Life expectancy of neon lights varies widely, with indicators lasting
years, but often not for the life of the product they're in. They last
longest in situations where they're not on all the time.
Light output deteriorates a lot over time. The most common failure
mode is blackening of the glass bulb due to electrode spluttering. The
Neon's one advantage is being able to run direct off mains voltage.
As indicators, [[LED]]s have the advantage of longer life, a range of
colours and greater light output. LEDs run at low voltage, neons at
mains voltage, making a neon much easier to use to indicate mains.
As low level lighting, [[LED]]s have all the advantages except for
needing a low voltage supply.
==More info==
Most neon lamps contain neon and argon. These strike at about 90v and
run at around 60v (some do run higher). Higher efficiency neons once
used for lighting use pure neon gas for better output - but their
higher strike voltage of around 120v precludes their use on 110v
mains.
Green and blue also strike at higher voltages, and can't be used on
110v.
Failed sodium lamps can be used as giant neon bulbs at suitably low
current.
[[Category:Lighting]]
> Input welcome
>
> NT
latest version...
Neon
==Neon indicator lamp==
[[image:Neon 5503-2.jpg|right|200px]]
These tiny lights are used as indicators. They've been replaced by
indication jobs such as light switches that are remote from the
[[light]] they control.
They're also used to enable finding light switches in the dark. For
this they're wired from switched live to live, so they light only when
the main light is off.
===Types===
Indicator neons come in these types of package:
- just the bare neon
- bare neon plus resistor, shrink wrapped
- in small round housing
- in rectangular housing about 13x28mm
- 4 neons with resistors built into a plastic square ring that mounts
behnd a light switch
- MK gridswitch part
All of these except the first normally come with built in resistor.
===Mounting===
Ways to mount bare neon indicators:
# Drill a tiny hole, and poke the tip of the neon into it
# Fit a translucent plastic spacer behind the switch, with built in
neons and resistor
# Fit a neon in a housing into a suitable round or rectangular hole.
These come in the usual neon colours, red, orange & yellow.
[[light]] they control.
They're also used to enable finding light switches in the dark. For
this they're wired from switched live to live, so they light only when
the main light is off.
===Types===
Indicator neons come in these types of package:
- just the bare neon
- bare neon plus resistor, shrink wrapped
- in small round housing
- in rectangular housing about 13x28mm
- 4 neons with resistors built into a plastic square ring that mounts
behnd a light switch
- MK gridswitch part
All of these except the first normally come with built in resistor.
===Mounting===
Ways to mount bare neon indicators:
# Drill a tiny hole, and poke the tip of the neon into it
# Fit a translucent plastic spacer behind the switch, with built in
neons and resistor
# Fit a neon in a housing into a suitable round or rectangular hole.
# In some situations its sufficient to simply mount the neon behind a
white plastic front, which then glows. Its best suited to dim
locations, light output is low.
Round housed neons go through a drilled panel hole, fixed with a nut.
Rectangular housed neons sit in a rectangular hole. Making these holes
without a suitable punch is excessively slow. The housing simply
white plastic front, which then glows. Its best suited to dim
locations, light output is low.
Round housed neons go through a drilled panel hole, fixed with a nut.
Rectangular housed neons sit in a rectangular hole. Making these holes
presses in place. To remove one, compress the 2 plastic fingers that
hold it in place.
Light-up switch rings simply sit behind the switch faceplate, an are
hold it in place.
held by the faceplate screws.
Gridswitch parts fit the MK gridswitch system.
===Resistor===
Indicator neons must be operated in series with a suitable resistor,
prompt failure. Most neon indicators have this built in, but neons
without it are also available. A 240v rating means the resistor is
built in.
If providing your own resistor, it must be 400v rated, and typical
0.3w carbon film resistors are 200v rated. Use 2x 120k 200v resistors
in series.)
Neons do come in other current ratings, but the classic 1mA NE-2 lamp
without it are also available. A 240v rating means the resistor is
built in.
If providing your own resistor, it must be 400v rated, and typical
0.3w carbon film resistors are 200v rated. Use 2x 120k 200v resistors
in series.)
is most common. If the light source moves about unstably in the lamp
its running below rated current.
==Neon flickering candle lamp==
Small imitation candle bulbs, the light sources moves about as it
operates. These give out very little light.
to generate a discharge over the whole cathode, and convection,
photons, and other random events cause the discharge area to move over
the electrode.
==Neon screwdriver==
photons, and other random events cause the discharge area to move over
the electrode.
[[image:Phasenpruefer_01-l_KMJ.jpg|right|200px]]
An unsafe voltage detector. See [[Neon screwdriver]]
[[image:Ohare_Neon_Walkway.jpg|right|200px]]
Neon gas filled shaped tubes were used in advertising, coloured to
produce red, yellow & orange light. Modern coloured tubing uses other
gases too and is mostly [[fluorescent]].
==Obsolete neon devices==
[[image:Nixie2.gif|right]]
===Neon lamp===
[[image:NE-34 LAMP.JPG|right|200px]]
Neon lightbulbs of a few watts were once used for low level general
[[lighting]]. The light is yellow-orange. Sometimes the electrodes
were shaped into novelty designs. They were even used as part of tv
displays in 1920s mechanically scanned tvs. They fell out of favour in
the 1930s.
===Neon tuning indicator===
A column shaped neon used in some pre-war radios. The height of the
glow is proportional to the current through them.
===Neon regulator===
Indicator neons were once used as voltage regulators at about 90v. 3
dial telephones.
==Light colour==
The orange light is a mixture of red, orange & yellow light. Colour
filters are often added externally to give any of these colours, or to
improve on/off contrast with orange. Green, blue and white neons
really contain other gases, and fluoresce.
Neon filled neons with a green plastic cover also exist, but don't
actually produce green light.
==Energy efficiency==
Neons are several times the efficacy of filament lamps. However the
power levels used are so miniscule as to be of no consequence. Neon
indicators don't warm up in use.
==Life expectancy==
[[image:Neon black 5578-2.jpg|right|200px]]
Life expectancy of neon lights varies widely, with indicators lasting
years, but often not for the life of the product they're in. They last
longest in situations where they're not on all the time.
Light output deteriorates a lot over time. The most common failure
neon pictured above still works electrically, but emits no light.
Life expectancy to the power of 3.5 is proportional to current, so
life
can be much increased by reducing run current. A 10% drop in current
gives a 44% gain in lifetime.
==Neon v LED==
life
can be much increased by reducing run current. A 10% drop in current
gives a 44% gain in lifetime.
Neon's one advantage is being able to run direct off mains voltage.
As indicators, [[LED]]s have the advantage of longer life, a range of
colours and greater light output. LEDs run at low voltage, neons at
mains voltage, making a neon much easier to use to indicate mains.
As low level lighting, [[LED]]s have all the advantages except for
needing a low voltage supply.
==More info==
Most neon lamps contain neon and argon. These strike at about 90v and
run at around 60v (some do run higher). Higher efficiency neons once
used for lighting use pure neon gas for better output - but their
higher strike voltage of around 120v precludes their use on 110v
mains.
Green and blue also strike at higher voltages, and can't be used on
110v.
Failed sodium lamps can be used as giant neon bulbs at suitably low
current.
[[Category:Lighting]]
Archibald
2012年8月26日 17:08:072012/8/26
收件人
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 11:34:01 -0700 (PDT), NT <meow...@care2.com>
wrote:
The holes were not "plated through" The connecting tubes were
literally tubes with a seam that did not have any mechanical bonding
apart from solder.
The tracks & lands were loosely bonded to the board, so the poor bloke
try
wrote:
literally tubes with a seam that did not have any mechanical bonding
apart from solder.
The tracks & lands were loosely bonded to the board, so the poor bloke
try
HN
2012年8月26日 17:24:192012/8/26
收件人
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 11:34:01 -0700 (PDT), NT <meow...@care2.com>
wrote:
temperature/ time to work within.
Radiospares tinned copper wire and araldite was dashed useful when it
came to repairing a GEC.
Mind you, for a really impossible repair, was there anything to beat
the IF assembly in the Pye 723 chassis.
I have seen Park Drive packets wedgeing them to a working position
after an hours work and a hundred or so grammes of solder failed.
Anyone remember the odd hairbrush wedged between tuning knob and
cabinet to keep the VHF biscuit tuner on station?
HN
wrote:
The holes were not "plated through" The connecting tubes were
literally tubes with a seam that did not have any mechanical bonding
apart from solder.
The tracks & lands were loosely bonded to the board, so the poor bloke
trying to repair the dry joints would have an extremely fine margin of
literally tubes with a seam that did not have any mechanical bonding
apart from solder.
The tracks & lands were loosely bonded to the board, so the poor bloke
temperature/ time to work within.
Radiospares tinned copper wire and araldite was dashed useful when it
came to repairing a GEC.
Mind you, for a really impossible repair, was there anything to beat
the IF assembly in the Pye 723 chassis.
I have seen Park Drive packets wedgeing them to a working position
after an hours work and a hundred or so grammes of solder failed.
Anyone remember the odd hairbrush wedged between tuning knob and
cabinet to keep the VHF biscuit tuner on station?
HN
NT
2012年8月26日 17:32:442012/8/26
收件人
On Aug 26, 10:24 pm, HN<blenkins...@mail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 11:34:01 -0700 (PDT), NT <meow2...@care2.com>
I dont remember any tubes, I thought it simply relied on the component
wire for connection.
> The tracks & lands were loosely bonded to the board, so the poor bloke
> trying to repair the dry joints would have an extremely fine margin of
> temperature/ time to work within.
I've soldered to loose things a huge number of times, and those GEC
boards, and assorted junk grade PCBs where the pads are detached. It
doesnt stop it soldering. It does make it necessary to scrape all crap
off before heating the joint.
I think the GEC soldering was just careless 3rd world style penny
pinching. Once there was at least some connection, they moved on.
> Radiospares tinned copper wire and araldite was dashed useful when it
> came to repairing a GEC.
33rpm records were handy for fixing LOPTFs
NT
> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 11:34:01 -0700 (PDT), NT <meow2...@care2.com>
wire for connection.
> The tracks & lands were loosely bonded to the board, so the poor bloke
> trying to repair the dry joints would have an extremely fine margin of
> temperature/ time to work within.
boards, and assorted junk grade PCBs where the pads are detached. It
doesnt stop it soldering. It does make it necessary to scrape all crap
off before heating the joint.
I think the GEC soldering was just careless 3rd world style penny
pinching. Once there was at least some connection, they moved on.
> Radiospares tinned copper wire and araldite was dashed useful when it
> came to repairing a GEC.
NT
Archibald
2012年8月26日 19:28:292012/8/26
收件人
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 14:32:44 -0700 (PDT), NT <meow...@care2.com>
wrote:
Discrete "tubes" connected the layers. They were not plated through
and were useless.
>
>> The tracks & lands were loosely bonded to the board, so the poor bloke
>> trying to repair the dry joints would have an extremely fine margin of
>> temperature/ time to work within.
>
>I've soldered to loose things a huge number of times, and those GEC
>boards, and assorted junk grade PCBs where the pads are detached. It
>doesnt stop it soldering. It does make it necessary to scrape all crap
>off before heating the joint.
GEC boards were unlike any other. Desolder a component and pull and
the top print layer would detach. The "tube" ensured braid or solder
suckers didn't work, so on replacement the new component would force
off the lower layer of print.
Braid was the recommended approach for GEC boards, but as the "tube" ,
component and both print layers were rarely in good thermal [or
electrical] contact, this wasn't always a success.
I went to GEC Kidsgrove when they produced the rubbish. Attempting to
educate them as to their problems I pulled a board off the assembly
line and turned it upside down in order to fully explain the repair
procedures at the retail end. 'Twas a little embarassing when all the
components dropped to the floor :-{
HN
It was from the line before the soldering was carried out. All the
components dropped onto the floor :-(
wrote:
and were useless.
>
>> The tracks & lands were loosely bonded to the board, so the poor bloke
>> trying to repair the dry joints would have an extremely fine margin of
>> temperature/ time to work within.
>
>I've soldered to loose things a huge number of times, and those GEC
>boards, and assorted junk grade PCBs where the pads are detached. It
>doesnt stop it soldering. It does make it necessary to scrape all crap
>off before heating the joint.
the top print layer would detach. The "tube" ensured braid or solder
suckers didn't work, so on replacement the new component would force
off the lower layer of print.
Braid was the recommended approach for GEC boards, but as the "tube" ,
component and both print layers were rarely in good thermal [or
electrical] contact, this wasn't always a success.
I went to GEC Kidsgrove when they produced the rubbish. Attempting to
educate them as to their problems I pulled a board off the assembly
line and turned it upside down in order to fully explain the repair
procedures at the retail end. 'Twas a little embarassing when all the
components dropped to the floor :-{
HN
It was from the line before the soldering was carried out. All the
components dropped onto the floor :-(
Graham.
2012年8月26日 19:31:352012/8/26
收件人
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 14:32:44 -0700 (PDT), NT <meow...@care2.com>
wrote:
Please tell me more about that.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
wrote:
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
HN
2012年8月26日 19:31:342012/8/26
收件人
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 00:28:29 +0100, Archibald <blenk...@mail.com>
wrote:
Sorry about the posting screw up. Got a new version of Agent and it
isn't configured yet
HN
wrote:
Sorry about the posting screw up. Got a new version of Agent and it
isn't configured yet
HN
Graham.
2012年8月26日 19:47:182012/8/26
收件人
biscuits and the contacts with silicone grease, and the ones that did
not.
I did not.
Used to pop out the contact springs of Thorn tuners with a small
screwdriver so they laid flat, polish them with Duraglit, Bend them up
to retention them then pop them back with my forefinger carefully
applying pressure to form just the right amount of curl. Then refit
the biscuits after giving them the Duraglit treatment too.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Frank Erskine
2012年8月26日 19:48:562012/8/26
收件人
it :-)
--
Frank Erskine
Graham.
2012年8月26日 19:50:102012/8/26
收件人
the most recent post at the top please.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Graham.
2012年8月26日 19:54:282012/8/26
收件人
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Jules Richardson
2012年8月26日 19:57:022012/8/26
收件人
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:21:34 +0100, Graham. wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 10:45:43 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
> <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In the time of valve equipment neons often used to be used like Zener
>>Diodes, but for higher voltages as one they struck they were effectively
>>a short circuit.
This clock using neons as the counting elements is worth a look:
> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 10:45:43 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
> <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In the time of valve equipment neons often used to be used like Zener
>>Diodes, but for higher voltages as one they struck they were effectively
>>a short circuit.
http://wwwhome.cs.utwente.nl/~ptdeboer/ham/neonclock
> Little indicator neons sometimes formed an active part of the circuitry
> in tellys to "latch" the selected channel, as well as to indicate it was
> selected.
> Granada TV Rental had a number of sets that did that, we called it
> Sensomatic channel change. You just touched one of 8 metal squares with
> your finger. In damp houses they would change randomly, and when the
> well used neons aged, usually 1 & 3 it became difficult to select those
> channels.
Panasonic - somewhere around 1980 which was exactly like that. I do
remember it having issues in the channel changing toward the end of its
life, too. I also remember taking it apart when I was somewhere around 8
years old and finding the neons (and it actually wouldn't surprise me if
I don't still have them in a junk box somewhere; I salvaged all the
useful-looking stuff out of that set before it went off to the dump).
cheers
Jules
Tim Watts
2012年8月27日 05:32:092012/8/27
收件人
NT wrote:
> ==Neon screwdriver==
It would be worth breaking down the pros and cons:
1) Voltage driven mains detector requiring very little current to operate;.
1a) As such it is very sensitive and prone to showing false positives due to
induced voltages or capacitive coupling.
2) Most cheap implementations are based on a single resistor to limit the
current and many devices are not sealed against water ingress which may
bridge the resistor leading to dangerous currents through the operator as
the current path to earth is usually completed through the operator via a
metal cap.
3) Such devices are often accused of being liable to giving false negatives
due to malfunction - but this is no more so than any other detector and any
detector should be proved before and after each session on a known live
source anyway.
Notes:
1a) is no worse in practice than modern "volt sticks".
2) There used to exist professional implemntations of neon detectors that
often did not incorporate a screwdriver - they were dedicated to the
function of detecting livevoltages, Versions working upto several kV
exisited and were used by at least the London Electricity Board.
Conclusion:
Better devices do exist now: Volt sticks reduce the risks due to point 2 and
a test lamp eliminates problems in 1a).
However, if it is all you have to hand, it is better to use it than use
nothing and bearing points 1a and 3 in mind, they are reasonably reliable.
--
Tim Watts
> ==Neon screwdriver==
> An unsafe voltage detector. See [[Neon screwdriver]]
This is a bit of a sweeping statement which has gained "fad" status.
It would be worth breaking down the pros and cons:
1) Voltage driven mains detector requiring very little current to operate;.
1a) As such it is very sensitive and prone to showing false positives due to
induced voltages or capacitive coupling.
2) Most cheap implementations are based on a single resistor to limit the
current and many devices are not sealed against water ingress which may
bridge the resistor leading to dangerous currents through the operator as
the current path to earth is usually completed through the operator via a
metal cap.
3) Such devices are often accused of being liable to giving false negatives
due to malfunction - but this is no more so than any other detector and any
detector should be proved before and after each session on a known live
source anyway.
Notes:
1a) is no worse in practice than modern "volt sticks".
2) There used to exist professional implemntations of neon detectors that
often did not incorporate a screwdriver - they were dedicated to the
function of detecting livevoltages, Versions working upto several kV
exisited and were used by at least the London Electricity Board.
Conclusion:
Better devices do exist now: Volt sticks reduce the risks due to point 2 and
a test lamp eliminates problems in 1a).
However, if it is all you have to hand, it is better to use it than use
nothing and bearing points 1a and 3 in mind, they are reasonably reliable.
--
Tim Watts
Jon Fairbairn
2012年8月27日 05:54:272012/8/27
收件人
NT <meow...@care2.com> writes:
> latest version...
without checking. It was in a large housing, so I assumed that
there must be a resistor in there — why waste all that space
otherwise? There was loud bang and bits of the lamp shot across
the room, telling me that it’s safest not to make such
assumptions.
--
Jón Fairbairn Jon.Fa...@cl.cam.ac.uk
http://www.chaos.org.uk/~jf/Stuff-I-dont-want.html (updated 2010-09-14)
> latest version...
> ===Resistor===
> [[image:Resistors 2757-3.jpg|right|200px]]
>
> Indicator neons must be operated in series with a suitable resistor,
> usually 220k for 1mA 240v operation. Failure to do so results in
> prompt failure.
Might be better to say “catastrophic failure”. I plugged one in
> [[image:Resistors 2757-3.jpg|right|200px]]
>
> Indicator neons must be operated in series with a suitable resistor,
> usually 220k for 1mA 240v operation. Failure to do so results in
> prompt failure.
without checking. It was in a large housing, so I assumed that
there must be a resistor in there — why waste all that space
otherwise? There was loud bang and bits of the lamp shot across
the room, telling me that it’s safest not to make such
assumptions.
--
Jón Fairbairn Jon.Fa...@cl.cam.ac.uk
http://www.chaos.org.uk/~jf/Stuff-I-dont-want.html (updated 2010-09-14)
NT
2012年8月27日 11:56:382012/8/27
收件人
On Aug 27, 10:54 am, Jon Fairbairn <jon.fairba...@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
NT
> NT <meow2...@care2.com> writes:
> > latest version...
> > ===Resistor===
> > [[image:Resistors 2757-3.jpg|right|200px]]
>
> > Indicator neons must be operated in series with a suitable resistor,
> > usually 220k for 1mA 240v operation. Failure to do so results in
> > prompt failure.
>
> Might be better to say “catastrophic failure”. I plugged one in
> without checking. It was in a large housing, so I assumed that
> there must be a resistor in there — why waste all that space
> otherwise? There was loud bang and bits of the lamp shot across
> the room, telling me that it’s safest not to make such
> assumptions.
done, ta
> > latest version...
> > ===Resistor===
> > [[image:Resistors 2757-3.jpg|right|200px]]
>
> > Indicator neons must be operated in series with a suitable resistor,
> > usually 220k for 1mA 240v operation. Failure to do so results in
> > prompt failure.
>
> Might be better to say “catastrophic failure”. I plugged one in
> without checking. It was in a large housing, so I assumed that
> there must be a resistor in there — why waste all that space
> otherwise? There was loud bang and bits of the lamp shot across
> the room, telling me that it’s safest not to make such
> assumptions.
NT
NT
2012年8月27日 11:57:472012/8/27
收件人
NT
NT
2012年8月27日 12:00:162012/8/27
收件人
On Aug 27, 12:31 am, Graham. <m...@privacy.net.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 14:32:44 -0700 (PDT), NT <meow2...@care2.com>
Thorough carbon removal can make most arcing LOPTFs work again, but
its never possible to get rid of every molecule, so what remains is
less able to resist breakdown than it was originally. Epoxying slices
of vinyl on lengthens the air breakdown paths like a traditional
insulator, preventing a patch of carbon causing arcover.
NT
> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 14:32:44 -0700 (PDT), NT <meow2...@care2.com>
its never possible to get rid of every molecule, so what remains is
less able to resist breakdown than it was originally. Epoxying slices
of vinyl on lengthens the air breakdown paths like a traditional
insulator, preventing a patch of carbon causing arcover.
NT
HN
2012年8月27日 13:02:022012/8/27
收件人
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 00:47:18 +0100, Graham. <m...@privacy.net.invalid>
Ditto, but I used Fospro.
Duraglit wasn't in the RS product list :-(
HN
Duraglit wasn't in the RS product list :-(
HN
HN
2012年8月27日 13:07:182012/8/27
收件人
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 10:32:09 +0100, Tim Watts <tw+u...@dionic.net>
wrote:
One little feature that was found with neon mains testers was a
certain type using a spring between cap and resistor that was a little
too large for the resistor. The result was that the spring travelled
over the resistor contacted the neon bulb and the poor user then
became the total series resistance.
Never experienced it myseld, but I saw it documented in Practical
Television.
HN
wrote:
certain type using a spring between cap and resistor that was a little
too large for the resistor. The result was that the spring travelled
over the resistor contacted the neon bulb and the poor user then
became the total series resistance.
Never experienced it myseld, but I saw it documented in Practical
Television.
HN
HN
2012年8月27日 13:25:592012/8/27
收件人
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:21:34 +0100, Graham. <m...@privacy.net.invalid>
wrote:
>On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 10:45:43 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
><bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In the time of valve equipment neons often used to be used like Zener
>>Diodes, but for higher voltages as one they struck they were effectively a
>>short circuit.
>> I can recall looking in the back of an early Bush colour tv and seeing all
>>those little glowing stabiliser neons.
>
>
>
>I don't remember that, in fact I don't remember any domestic
>electronics that used neon stabilisers.
They were not stabilisers in themselves. In the Bush they merely acted
as a triggering device for the thyristor stabiliser. As the neon had a
fixed striking voltage it was used at a time determined by the R/C
network controling the HT.
I may be wrong on this, but apart from the tuning neons on some sets
the only other neon was in the line timebase. This conducted in the
case of excess HT and killed the oscillator thus preventing the set
becoming a scource of X rays & fireworks.
A neon when conducting passes microamps, so I would imagine that it's
uses as a stabiliser would be extremely limited.
>I certainly used them in my home built transmitters, to stabilise the
>VFO HT. 150B2 comes to mind, with a B9A base.
>
I remember I had a japanese comms receiver with something similar. O/K
for oscillators, but I would doubt if the current it could sink would
suit much else.
>Little indicator neons sometimes formed an active part of the
>circuitry in tellys to "latch" the selected channel, as well as to
>indicate it was selected.
>Granada TV Rental had a number of sets that did that, we called it
>Sensomatic channel change. You just touched one of 8 metal squares
>with your finger. In damp houses they would change randomly, and when
>the well used neons aged, usually 1 & 3 it became difficult to select
>those channels.
There's being polite! What about the meal remains and other
unmentionable organic debris that customers spread about with their
fingers?
HN
wrote:
>On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 10:45:43 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
><bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In the time of valve equipment neons often used to be used like Zener
>>Diodes, but for higher voltages as one they struck they were effectively a
>>short circuit.
>> I can recall looking in the back of an early Bush colour tv and seeing all
>>those little glowing stabiliser neons.
>
>
>
>I don't remember that, in fact I don't remember any domestic
>electronics that used neon stabilisers.
as a triggering device for the thyristor stabiliser. As the neon had a
fixed striking voltage it was used at a time determined by the R/C
network controling the HT.
I may be wrong on this, but apart from the tuning neons on some sets
the only other neon was in the line timebase. This conducted in the
case of excess HT and killed the oscillator thus preventing the set
becoming a scource of X rays & fireworks.
A neon when conducting passes microamps, so I would imagine that it's
uses as a stabiliser would be extremely limited.
>I certainly used them in my home built transmitters, to stabilise the
>VFO HT. 150B2 comes to mind, with a B9A base.
>
for oscillators, but I would doubt if the current it could sink would
suit much else.
>Little indicator neons sometimes formed an active part of the
>circuitry in tellys to "latch" the selected channel, as well as to
>indicate it was selected.
>Granada TV Rental had a number of sets that did that, we called it
>Sensomatic channel change. You just touched one of 8 metal squares
>with your finger. In damp houses they would change randomly, and when
>the well used neons aged, usually 1 & 3 it became difficult to select
>those channels.
unmentionable organic debris that customers spread about with their
fingers?
HN
Andrew Gabriel
2012年8月27日 14:28:022012/8/27
收件人
In article <wfwr0kd...@calligramme.charmers>,
I moved something which shorted out the series resistor.
Bang, and the remains of the glass were embedded in the wall.
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
Jon Fairbairn <jon.fa...@cl.cam.ac.uk> writes:
> NT <meow...@care2.com> writes:
>
>> latest version...
>> ===Resistor===
>> [[image:Resistors 2757-3.jpg|right|200px]]
>>
>> Indicator neons must be operated in series with a suitable resistor,
>> usually 220k for 1mA 240v operation. Failure to do so results in
>> prompt failure.
>
> Might be better to say “catastrophic failure”. I plugged one in
> without checking. It was in a large housing, so I assumed that
> there must be a resistor in there — why waste all that space
> otherwise? There was loud bang and bits of the lamp shot across
> the room, telling me that it’s safest not to make such
> assumptions.
When lashing up a circuit on the bench (teenager at the time),
> NT <meow...@care2.com> writes:
>
>> latest version...
>> ===Resistor===
>> [[image:Resistors 2757-3.jpg|right|200px]]
>>
>> Indicator neons must be operated in series with a suitable resistor,
>> usually 220k for 1mA 240v operation. Failure to do so results in
>> prompt failure.
>
> Might be better to say “catastrophic failure”. I plugged one in
> without checking. It was in a large housing, so I assumed that
> there must be a resistor in there — why waste all that space
> otherwise? There was loud bang and bits of the lamp shot across
> the room, telling me that it’s safest not to make such
> assumptions.
I moved something which shorted out the series resistor.
Bang, and the remains of the glass were embedded in the wall.
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
Graham.
2012年8月28日 17:03:422012/8/28
收件人
(otherwise I would remember liberating a tin or two), perhaps we got
it with petty cash.
A random thought has just crossed my mind, we used to go through
gallons of Granada branded Joynes Waxless Polish for cabinets.
Unbelievably, a quick Google shows the stuff is still available, but
now in sensible shaped plastic bottles. In the '70s it came in a flat
medicine style glass bottle and I must have spilt more than I actually
used.
We had a French Polisher called Ted that used to come round all the
depots in the area. Quite a character, and what he couldn't do with
wood.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Graham.
2012年8月28日 17:16:222012/8/28
收件人
I don't remember the neon for squelching the line osc, but this
exchange would be incomplete without mention of the EHT shunt
regulator, PD500.
I suppose they glowed like a neon in operation; not that anyone with
half a brain would be looking of course.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
The Natural Philosopher
2012年8月28日 17:39:312012/8/28
收件人
Graham. wrote:
> I don't remember the neon for squelching the line osc, but this
> exchange would be incomplete without mention of the EHT shunt
> regulator, PD500.
> I suppose they glowed like a neon in operation; not that anyone with
> half a brain would be looking of course.
>
>
Ah the days of valves..!
> I don't remember the neon for squelching the line osc, but this
> exchange would be incomplete without mention of the EHT shunt
> regulator, PD500.
> I suppose they glowed like a neon in operation; not that anyone with
> half a brain would be looking of course.
>
>
I never forget seeing some turkey's valve amp's anodes lighting up like
a Christmas tree when he hit a power chord on his Farfisa..
>
>
--
Ineptocracy
(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
dochol...@gmail.com
2012年8月29日 14:09:252012/8/29
收件人
On Monday, August 27, 2012 6:25:59 PM UTC+1, HN wrote:
> A neon when conducting passes microamps, so I would imagine that it's
> uses as a stabiliser would be extremely limited.
As I recall the neon stabiliser valves (such as the 150B2 mentioned elsewhere in this thread) could pass several milliamps, in some cases some 10s of milliamps; the regulated power supply I still have somewhere uses them as a voltage reference controlling a series pass 12E1 for higher current output, but that's definitely a piece of bench testgear and not something that would be designed into consumer electronics.
> A neon when conducting passes microamps, so I would imagine that it's
> uses as a stabiliser would be extremely limited.
The Natural Philosopher
2012年8月29日 18:33:582012/8/29
收件人
Mullard 90C1 rated at something like 100V 40 mA. So a 4W device,.
NT
2012年8月29日 19:19:462012/8/29
收件人
On Aug 29, 11:34 pm, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
little current to feed a valve electrode
NT
wrote:
> dochollida...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, August 27, 2012 6:25:59 PM UTC+1, HN wrote:
>
> >> A neon when conducting passes microamps, so I would imagine that it's
> >> uses as a stabiliser would be extremely limited.
> > As I recall the neon stabiliser valves (such as the 150B2 mentioned elsewhere in this thread) could pass several milliamps, in some cases some 10s of milliamps; the regulated power supply I still have somewhere uses them as a voltage reference controlling a series pass 12E1 for higher current output, but that's definitely a piece of bench testgear and not something that would be designed into consumer electronics.
>
> Derfintely milliamps for the bigger ones.
>
> Mullard 90C1 rated at something like 100V 40 mA. So a 4W device,.
I'm not sure I make sense of the objection, a neon need run on very
> > On Monday, August 27, 2012 6:25:59 PM UTC+1, HN wrote:
>
> >> A neon when conducting passes microamps, so I would imagine that it's
> >> uses as a stabiliser would be extremely limited.
> > As I recall the neon stabiliser valves (such as the 150B2 mentioned elsewhere in this thread) could pass several milliamps, in some cases some 10s of milliamps; the regulated power supply I still have somewhere uses them as a voltage reference controlling a series pass 12E1 for higher current output, but that's definitely a piece of bench testgear and not something that would be designed into consumer electronics.
>
> Derfintely milliamps for the bigger ones.
>
> Mullard 90C1 rated at something like 100V 40 mA. So a 4W device,.
little current to feed a valve electrode
NT
Archibald
2012年9月1日 15:44:282012/9/1
收件人
On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 22:03:42 +0100, Graham. <m...@privacy.net.invalid>
wrote:
SNIP
>I can't remember it being available from our central spares either,
>(otherwise I would remember liberating a tin or two), perhaps we got
>it with petty cash.
>
>A random thought has just crossed my mind, we used to go through
>gallons of Granada branded Joynes Waxless Polish for cabinets.
>Unbelievably, a quick Google shows the stuff is still available, but
>now in sensible shaped plastic bottles. In the '70s it came in a flat
>medicine style glass bottle and I must have spilt more than I actually
>used.
>
>We had a French Polisher called Ted that used to come round all the
>depots in the area. Quite a character, and what he couldn't do with
>wood.
FRENCH POLISHER!
You had a better class of customer than we at Rumbelows then.
We did have one engineer who would thouroughly clean the vomit, chip
grease and other crud from half the set.
We did have some foaming stuff for sets that hit the workshop though.
It had a soectacular effect on the tobacco tar on the CRT.
HN
wrote:
SNIP
>I can't remember it being available from our central spares either,
>(otherwise I would remember liberating a tin or two), perhaps we got
>it with petty cash.
>
>A random thought has just crossed my mind, we used to go through
>gallons of Granada branded Joynes Waxless Polish for cabinets.
>Unbelievably, a quick Google shows the stuff is still available, but
>now in sensible shaped plastic bottles. In the '70s it came in a flat
>medicine style glass bottle and I must have spilt more than I actually
>used.
>
>We had a French Polisher called Ted that used to come round all the
>depots in the area. Quite a character, and what he couldn't do with
>wood.
You had a better class of customer than we at Rumbelows then.
We did have one engineer who would thouroughly clean the vomit, chip
grease and other crud from half the set.
We did have some foaming stuff for sets that hit the workshop though.
It had a soectacular effect on the tobacco tar on the CRT.
HN
HN
2012年9月1日 15:50:352012/9/1
收件人
On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 22:16:22 +0100, Graham. <m...@privacy.net.invalid>
Just a little befoe my time. I saw the odd one or two "towers". I
imagine they were all used in dual standards.
The day's of lead underpants, degauss coils and daylight references.
Happy times!
HN
imagine they were all used in dual standards.
The day's of lead underpants, degauss coils and daylight references.
Happy times!
HN
HN
2012年9月1日 15:58:052012/9/1
收件人
On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 11:09:25 -0700 (PDT), dochol...@gmail.com
wrote:
Sorry, I should have been a little more clear. The indicator lamps are
microamps and therefore of little use as a stabiliser.
Neons were and probably still are used for oscillator stabilisation
and those I am familiar with will sink around 10mA or so.
HN
wrote:
microamps and therefore of little use as a stabiliser.
Neons were and probably still are used for oscillator stabilisation
and those I am familiar with will sink around 10mA or so.
HN
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