Leaky house. Would a surveyor help?

[Another Dave]

1928 2-storey detached house. Top storey rendered and somebody put
cavity insulation in 10 years ago ( I've owned it for four years).

Rising damp at the rear and both ends of the upper story have got
penetrating damp - I think. Rather than get estimates from people with
vested interests, would I be better off paying a surveyor to tell me
definitively what's wrong and, if so, how much would he cost?

Another Dave

[harry]

Why not DIY for very little cost? Plenty of expertise here.
Be sure it's not condensation.

[The Natural Philosopher]

couple of hundred notes typically for a very good opinion.

[Another Dave]

On 30/12/2011 14:29, harry wrote:
>
> Why not DIY for very little cost? Plenty of expertise here.

I'm not averse to a little DIY but at 70 years old doing outside high-up
work isn't on. Likewise bending down to damp-proof courses.

> Be sure it's not condensation.

When the rain comes from the east the east side leaks; when the rain
comes from the west the west side leaks. The damp rises only when it rains.

Another Dave

[Another Dave]

On 30/12/2011 14:36, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> couple of hundred notes typically for a very good opinion.

Do you mean surveyors in general give very good opinions or that I'd get
a bad opinion for £100 ;)

[harry]

Sounds like a pointing problem.
Get a good local builder. (Not an NVQ boy)
Someone with a personal recommendation.
He will fix your problems.

DPC injection machines (for the risingdamp) and the chemical can be
hired from your local tool hire.

[mike]

On Dec 30, 4:16 pm, harry <haroldhr...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Dec 30, 3:27 pm, Another Dave <dmars...@nospam.com> wrote:

> > 1928 2-storey detached house. Top storey rendered and somebody put
> > cavity insulation in 10 years ago ( I've owned it for four years).

>

> Sounds like a pointing problem.

Sounds more like a bridged cavity, doesn't it?

[NT]

People claiming damp expertise are very variable, there's no shortage
of unsuitable recommendations & diagnoses, so I'd be rather hesitant
to get a damp expert in, and even more so a non-damp-expert. I'd say
your best bet is to learn about damp in old houses, a good place to do
that is the period property uk forum (assuming its still running). The
sort of techniques used on modern builds are often not suited to old
houses with no dpc, soft bricks, etc.

Damp near ground is more often condensation than rising damp.


NT

[Terry Casey]

In article <9d66e66c-d037-462f-bec1-
8e9412...@z17g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>, mike...@yahoo.com says...

In a house built in 1928 ...?

--

Terry

[ARWadsworth]

But the OP claims that it had cavity wall insulation installed 10 years ago.

--
Adam

[mike]

On Dec 30, 6:29 pm, Terry Casey <k.t...@example.invalid> wrote:
> In article <9d66e66c-d037-462f-bec1-
> 8e9412451...@z17g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>, miken...@yahoo.com says...

>
>
>
> > On Dec 30, 4:16 pm, harry <haroldhr...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > On Dec 30, 3:27 pm, Another Dave <dmars...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> > > > 1928 2-storey detached house. Top storey rendered and somebody put
> > > > cavity insulation in 10 years ago ( I've owned it for four years).
>
> > > Sounds like a pointing problem.
>
> > Sounds more like a bridged cavity, doesn't it?
>
> In a house built in 1928 ...?

Well, cavities became common in the UK in the 1920's, didn't they?
Our 1930 house has a cavity. The OP said it's cavity construction and
it's not uncommon for builders to throw crap down the cavity or mortar
snots to get caught on any ties, or any subsequent modification to
result in debris falling into the cavity.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Both

[Jim K]

you'd get "an opinion" either way - trouble is when it turns out to be
wrong they will have already spent your fee on another "must have"
novelty extending ladder that will fit in the Evoque's boot... in any
case I bet you there will be no redress once the small print gets
pointed out.

Jim K

[cynic]

There is cavity insulation and there is cavity insulation. You may
also have gutter problems which you should check out before spending
money and time trying to find defects elsewhere.
I'd hazard a guess the penetrating damp is due to either pointing
problems or you have water soaking into the brickwork from the driving
rain and traversing the outer and inner leaves of the wall with
soaking across the cavity insulation. First port of call a recommended
builder/bricklayer to have a look at the pointing. If its porous
brickwork then Sovereign Chemicals do a water repellant spray you can
apply with a long lance from the ground.
As to the rising damp if thats what it is, If there is a damp proof
course present it may be bridged by render or soil and providing a
"wick" effect. Have a good look round and check for bridged bits. The
cavity insulation could also be causing problems if it is creating a
hidden bridge across the dpc. This might require cutting a brick out
to allow internal inspection of the cavity low down section.

[Terry Casey]

In article <jdl09b$t6h$1...@dont-email.me>, adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk
says...

Yes - I must have missed that bit - didn't realise that cavity walls
went back so far ...

--

Terry

[Roger Mills]

I think that whoever does it, you need to do a bit of dismantling - by
removing a few bricks - to see what's going on. Chances are that it's
not rising damp, but rather water being absorbed by the outer skin and
transmitted to the inside. This often happens when cavity wall
insulation is pumped into cavities which have been bridged by mortar
dropped onto the ties. Without the insulation, the water just evaporates
off the ties, but the insulation stops that from happening - so the
water is transmitted to the inner skin.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

[charles]

In article <MPG.29681366d...@news.eternal-september.org>,

why not? my last house was built in 1904 and had cavity walls. Mind you,
this built (by a spec-builder) in 1911 has solid walls.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

[charles]

In article
<64b40f24-d881-400d...@m20g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>,

That even happens with 1997 builds. At our theatre we had to have the
buiders back twice to sort out damp in the inside wall.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 08:16:35 -0800 (PST), harry wrote:

> Sounds like a pointing problem.

The OP said it was rendered... I suspect that has failed and is now
trapping water against the outer skin. How that is getting across the
cavity is problematical. What form does the cavity insulation take?
Blown fibre, injected foam? The only real way to find out is to make
some holes and see what is going on in the cavity.

Rising damp, how far up the wall does it go? Assuming there is a damp
course make sure that isn't bridges by plants/soil etc and is at
least 4" above ground level (6" would be better).

Condensation has been mentioned, don't rule that out.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Steve Walker]

Our 1935 house and the 1934 bungalow next door have cavities, my
parents' 1935 house 3/4 mile away has solid walls. According to previous
threads here, quite a few Victorian houses have cavities.

It's all a bit random really.

SteveW

[Tony Bryer]

On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:21:30 +0000 Steve Walker wrote :
> Our 1935 house and the 1934 bungalow next door have cavities, my
> parents' 1935 house 3/4 mile away has solid walls. According to
> previous threads here, quite a few Victorian houses have cavities.
>
> It's all a bit random really.

In New Malden, where I was once a BCO, cavity walls only became the
norm in late 1930s, though I did get involved in one Victorian property
that had them. A colleague who joined us from Portsmouth was astounded
to find this - apparently cavity walls had been the norm there from
much earlier, but perhaps not too surprisingly as the original reason
for adopting them was damp prevention, not thermal insulation.

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on',
Melbourne, Australia www.greentram.com

[Alan]

In message <nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@srv1.howhill.co.uk>, Dave
Liquorice <allsortsn...@howhill.co.uk> wrote

>Rising damp, how far up the wall does it go? Assuming there is a damp
>course make sure that isn't bridges by plants/soil etc and is at
>least 4" above ground level (6" would be better).

Or rotted wooden window frames or cracked window sills and it isn't
rising from the ground.
--
Alan
news2009 {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[geoff]

In message <jdkgfh$u4d$1...@dont-email.me>, Another Dave
<dmar...@nospam.com> writes

Get the professionals in to quote for work required and price, then DIY

obvious

--
geoff

[m...@privacy.net]

On 30 Dec,

Terry Casey <k.t...@example.invalid> wrote:

> Yes - I must have missed that bit - didn't realise that cavity walls
> went back so far ...
>

Some Victorian houses (usually in exposed coastal areas) had them. Most areas
(but not all) used cavity walls by the 30s.

--
B Thumbs
Change lycos to yahoo to reply

[The Natural Philosopher]

Alan wrote:
> In message <nyyfbegfubjuvyypb...@srv1.howhill.co.uk>, Dave
> Liquorice <allsortsn...@howhill.co.uk> wrote
>
>> Rising damp, how far up the wall does it go? Assuming there is a damp
>> course make sure that isn't bridges by plants/soil etc and is at
>> least 4" above ground level (6" would be better).
>
> Or rotted wooden window frames or cracked window sills and it isn't
> rising from the ground.

In my case it both dripped down inside the walls from rotten bargeboards
and rise up from the lake under the floor after it rained.

There is a common myth that penetrating rain and rising damp do not
exist. Both do.

[John Rumm]

Yup, our previous 1956 house was solid wall...

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[Steve Firth]

Tony Bryer <to...@delme.greentram.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:21:30 +0000 Steve Walker wrote :
>> Our 1935 house and the 1934 bungalow next door have cavities, my
>> parents' 1935 house 3/4 mile away has solid walls. According to
>> previous threads here, quite a few Victorian houses have cavities.
>>
>> It's all a bit random really.
>
> In New Malden, where I was once a BCO, cavity walls only became the
> norm in late 1930s, though I did get involved in one Victorian property
> that had them. A colleague who joined us from Portsmouth was astounded
> to find this - apparently cavity walls had been the norm there from
> much earlier, but perhaps not too surprisingly as the original reason
> for adopting them was damp prevention, not thermal insulation.

My former family home built in the 1860s had cavity walls. The current
place has a Victorian extension dating from the 1870s that has a cavity
wall on one side of the extension, solid masonry on the other external
wall.

[Alan]

In message <jdlrbo$8qi$1...@news.albasani.net>, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote

>
>There is a common myth that penetrating rain and rising damp do not
>exist. Both do.

Seldom the remedy for rising damp is injecting a new damp proof coarse
as has been done in many 100,000s of properties. The damp proof coarse
seldom fails and if you really do have rising damp then it is more
likely the coarse has been bridged. And then there is the simplistic way
that "surveyors" detect damp by using a meter that measures the
resistance of the salts in the outer 0.5mm of plaster.

[charles]

In article <j7h3sjhtTu$OF...@amac.f2s.com>,

it's 'course', by the way.

But if the damp is on an upper floor, then it is very unlikely to be
rinsing damp - it won't get that high.

[Nick Odell]

On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 03:03:29 +0000, John Rumm
<see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:

>On 30/12/2011 23:21, Steve Walker wrote:
>> On 30/12/2011 18:39, mike wrote:
>>> On Dec 30, 6:29 pm, Terry Casey<k.t...@example.invalid> wrote:
>>>> In article<9d66e66c-d037-462f-bec1-
>>>> 8e9412451...@z17g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>, miken...@yahoo.com says...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 30, 4:16 pm, harry<haroldhr...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Dec 30, 3:27 pm, Another Dave<dmars...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> 1928 2-storey detached house. Top storey rendered and somebody put
>>>>>>> cavity insulation in 10 years ago ( I've owned it for four years).
>>>>
>>>>>> Sounds like a pointing problem.
>>>>
>>>>> Sounds more like a bridged cavity, doesn't it?
>>>>
>>>> In a house built in 1928 ...?
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, cavities became common in the UK in the 1920's, didn't they?
>>> Our 1930 house has a cavity. The OP said it's cavity construction and
>>> it's not uncommon for builders to throw crap down the cavity or mortar
>>> snots to get caught on any ties, or any subsequent modification to
>>> result in debris falling into the cavity.
>>
>> Our 1935 house and the 1934 bungalow next door have cavities, my
>> parents' 1935 house 3/4 mile away has solid walls. According to previous
>> threads here, quite a few Victorian houses have cavities.
>>
>> It's all a bit random really.
>
>Yup, our previous 1956 house was solid wall...

Ditto here but 1962.

Nick

[Another Dave]

On 31/12/2011 10:50, charles wrote:
>
> But if the damp is on an upper floor, then it is very unlikely to be
> rinsing damp - it won't get that high.
>

I'm the OP. The upper storey damp is at the ends of the house. The
rising damp is at the rear and is a completely separate issue.

Another Dave

[Another Dave]

On 30/12/2011 23:11, Dave Liquorice wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 08:16:35 -0800 (PST), harry wrote:
>
>> Sounds like a pointing problem.
>
> The OP said it was rendered... I suspect that has failed and is now
> trapping water against the outer skin. How that is getting across the
> cavity is problematical. What form does the cavity insulation take?
> Blown fibre, injected foam? The only real way to find out is to make
> some holes and see what is going on in the cavity.
>

I'm the OP.

Everybody who has looked at the rendering - and there have been many :(
- say the rendering is fine. However, I think they are wrong and that
this is the cause of my upper storey problems. Is it possible for render
to look good yet still be defective? It's been there for at least 40
years and may even have been there for all 80 years of the house's life.
How long does render last?

> Rising damp, how far up the wall does it go? Assuming there is a damp
> course make sure that isn't bridges by plants/soil etc and is at
> least 4" above ground level (6" would be better).
>

It goes up about 2 feet.
There are some concrete flags up against the house in the area affected
which are only 3 inches below the DP course. Is it worth removing them?

> Condensation has been mentioned, don't rule that out.
>

I'd like it to be condensation but I'm almost certain it isn't.

Another Dave

[The Natural Philosopher]

YES.

use gravel. watersplash off flags is massive..can go up ..2 feet?

Or paint the lower part of the wall with a waterproofing solution.

2ft is rather high for rising damp..i've not seen it go much beyond
skirting level.

However I am thinking here, that you may have a somewhat different
problem,.

If water is getting into the cavity at the top, you will see the worst
effects at the top,. and where it collects, at the bottom.

I couldn't believe how much water DID get in past my rotten bargeboards
in a high wind.

Look water on a porous wall tends to evaporate outwards as fast as it
gets in..but a cavity wall is very vulnerable to water getting in at the
top where the cavity is open.

That's mostly something that happens on gable ends, because the eaves
overlaps the walls a lot more elsewhere. Unless you have a guttering
problem anyway.

If your problems are on gable ends, I'd suggest you look at the
roof/wall interface seriously.

>> Condensation has been mentioned, don't rule that out.
>>
> I'd like it to be condensation but I'm almost certain it isn't.
>

I don't think so either.

> Another Dave

[gremlin_95]

On 31/12/2011 03:03, John Rumm wrote:
> On 30/12/2011 23:21, Steve Walker wrote:
>> On 30/12/2011 18:39, mike wrote:
>>> On Dec 30, 6:29 pm, Terry Casey<k.t...@example.invalid> wrote:
>>>> In article<9d66e66c-d037-462f-bec1-
>>>> 8e9412451...@z17g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>, miken...@yahoo.com says...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 30, 4:16 pm, harry<haroldhr...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Dec 30, 3:27 pm, Another Dave<dmars...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> 1928 2-storey detached house. Top storey rendered and somebody put
>>>>>>> cavity insulation in 10 years ago ( I've owned it for four years).
>>>>
>>>>>> Sounds like a pointing problem.
>>>>
>>>>> Sounds more like a bridged cavity, doesn't it?
>>>>
>>>> In a house built in 1928 ...?
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, cavities became common in the UK in the 1920's, didn't they?
>>> Our 1930 house has a cavity. The OP said it's cavity construction and
>>> it's not uncommon for builders to throw crap down the cavity or mortar
>>> snots to get caught on any ties, or any subsequent modification to
>>> result in debris falling into the cavity.
>>
>> Our 1935 house and the 1934 bungalow next door have cavities, my
>> parents' 1935 house 3/4 mile away has solid walls. According to previous
>> threads here, quite a few Victorian houses have cavities.
>>
>> It's all a bit random really.
>
> Yup, our previous 1956 house was solid wall...
>

Our 1930's house has solid walls.

--
David

[Hugo Nebula]

[Default] On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 11:11:19 +1100, a certain chimpanzee,
Tony Bryer <to...@delme.greentram.com>, randomly hit the keyboard and
wrote:

>In New Malden, where I was once a BCO, cavity walls only became the
>norm in late 1930s, though I did get involved in one Victorian property
>that had them. A colleague who joined us from Portsmouth was astounded
>to find this - apparently cavity walls had been the norm there from
>much earlier, but perhaps not too surprisingly as the original reason
>for adopting them was damp prevention, not thermal insulation.

Starting my career in Merseyside, I hadn't come across cavity walls in
properties older than 1930's in Liverpool/Bootle. I was surprised when
I did a few jobs in Southport (about 10 miles away) & found cavities
in Victorian/Edwardian houses.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have I strayed"?

[george [dicegeorge]]

On 30/12/11 14:05, Another Dave wrote:
> 1928 2-storey detached house. Top storey rendered and somebody put
> cavity insulation in 10 years ago ( I've owned it for four years).
>

> Rising damp at the rear and both ends of the upper story have got
> penetrating damp - I think. Rather than get estimates from people with
> vested interests, would I be better off paying a surveyor to tell me
> definitively what's wrong and, if so, how much would he cost?
>

> Another Dave

Get an SDS drill and drill exploratory holes from the inside,
you should be able to patch them from the inside with ready mix cement,
or temproary plywood covering whilst investigation goes on.

You can take your time to find out whats wrong.

And with that knowledge ask a surveyor more intelligent questions.

I've had this house 4 years and been DIYing every day but there are
still many unknowns.

[g]

[george [dicegeorge]]

damp in my floors was from years of gardening raisng the level of the
earth outside
over the air vents which should have ventilated under the floor,
instead water came in through them.

Solution, dig a ditch/ moat around the house,
with pits in it going below the water table,
monitor the water levels in it during the rainy seasons.

[g]

[robgraham]

On Jan 1, 6:46 pm, "george [dicegeorge]" <dicegeo...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Try a pair of 200 year old cottages knocked together after WW1 !

[Weatherlawyer]

On Dec 30 2011, 3:27 pm, Another Dave <dmars...@nospam.com> wrote:
> On 30/12/2011 14:29, harry wrote:
>
>
>
> > Why not DIY for very little cost?  Plenty of expertise here.
>
> I'm not averse to a little DIY but at 70 years old doing outside high-up
> work isn't on. Likewise bending down to damp-proof courses.
>
> > Be sure it's not condensation.
>
> When the rain comes from the east the east side leaks; when the rain
> comes from the west the west side leaks. The damp rises only when it rains.

Whaere doe it leak?

If it is just door and window seals a tube of mastic or some new
rubber might sort it.

If it is just under the guttering some new plastic.

There is very little that can go wrong with a house really. Anything
bridging the cavity as someone suggested will have been doing so since
new.

The rest of it is down to rot and loose fixings. Each problem suggests
its own cause....

Any tiles slipped?
Borrow a pair of binoculars. That sort of thing.

[sm_jamieson]

On Saturday, December 31, 2011 12:41:06 AM UTC, m...@privacy.net wrote:
> On 30 Dec,
> Terry Casey <k.t...@example.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Yes - I must have missed that bit - didn't realise that cavity walls
> > went back so far ...
> >
> Some Victorian houses (usually in exposed coastal areas) had them. Most areas
> (but not all) used cavity walls by the 30s.
>

Coventry has a vast stock of solid 9" wall houses build up to 1940. Mine is 1938 and has lime mortar. I think an old boy was building into his 80s !
I've never seen a cavity wall built with lime mortar (i.e. soggy chalk dust).
Simon.

[RobertL]

"Soggy chalk dust" I have to say I rather favour lime mortar for
buildings on shallow foundations. It flexes a bit when the ground
moves and does not crack. It's also easy to demoish walls and reuse
the old bricks.

Robert

[The Natural Philosopher]

RobertL wrote:
>I have to say I rather favour lime mortar for
> buildings on shallow foundations. It flexes a bit when the ground
> moves and does not crack. It's also easy to demoish walls and reuse
> the old bricks.

Ideal for people who take three goes to get it right.. :-)

[docholliday]

On Dec 31 2011, 12:11 am, Tony Bryer <t...@delme.greentram.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:21:30 +0000 Steve Walker wrote :
>
> > Our 1935 house and the 1934 bungalow next door have cavities, my
> > parents' 1935 house 3/4 mile away has solid walls. According to
> > previous threads here, quite a few Victorian houses have cavities.
>
> > It's all a bit random really.
>
> In New Malden, where I was once a BCO, cavity walls only became the
> norm in late 1930s, though I did get involved in one Victorian property
> that had them. A colleague who joined us from Portsmouth was astounded
> to find this - apparently cavity walls had been the norm there from
> much earlier, but perhaps not too surprisingly as the original reason
> for adopting them was damp prevention, not thermal insulation.
>

I've heard it suggested that the emphasis on fire prevention in the
London building acts had ther effect of discouraging the use of cavity
walls in the London area - and possibly in other cities which had
suffered from major fires - but I haven't been able to find written
evidence to back that up, though that may just mean I'm not looking in
the right place.
It is certainly true that my first two houses (both in Hampshire, and
both pre - 1914) had cavity walls, while my parents pre -1945 housein
London and also my current house in Northants (pre 1914) have solid
walls.
I remember finding advertisements for wall ties when browsing through
an old (around 1910) volume of 'The Builder' or some such title which
I came across in a secondhand bookshop; many of those were however so
short that they didn't allow for a cavity. Apparently the idea was
that using these reduced the quantity of expensive facing bricks that
you had to use, and also made it easier to get two fair faces on a
wall - if you're building a 1 brick thick wall it's very difficult -
if not impossible, with the hand-made bricks available then - to get
the end faces of a header to line up with the stretchers on both sides.

[Adrian Simpson]

In article
<1ad137c3-2840-4342...@dp8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
docholliday <dochol...@gmail.com> writes

>It is certainly true that my first two houses (both in Hampshire, and
>both pre - 1914) had cavity walls, while my parents pre -1945 housein
>London and also my current house in Northants (pre 1914) have solid
>walls.

Curiously, mine (built 1939) has a cavity wall at the front (which is
brick faced), the side and back are solid (and rendered).


Adrian
--
To Reply :
replace "news" with "adrian" and "nospam" with "ffoil"
Sorry for the rigmarole, If I want spam, I'll go to the shops
Every time someone says "I don't believe in trolls", another one dies.

[m...@privacy.net]

On 4 Jan,

sm_jamieson <sm_ja...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I've never seen a cavity wall built with lime mortar (i.e. soggy chalk
> dust).

My parent's house definitely was (built 1902). I think two of my sisters
houses were too, built late Victorian and Edwardian.