Condensing boiler (continued) - Told I cannot have as Cast iron Waste pipe - plot thickens!
Dave Smithz
a lot more info is now available).
My Corgi engineer told me I cannot have a condensing boiler because I am on
the second floor and I have a cast iron stack. I phoned Corgi and they
clearly state the condensate waste SHOULD NOT go into metal waste pipes. If
you phone Corgi technical help they will tell you the same. I am not in a
position to build an alternative waste trap because I live in a flat.
However, my local building control would not authorise my exemption from a
condensing boiler as I do not score enough points going through the
exemption procedure (see link later below).
So this leaves me stuck. Do I break the law and go with what Corgi tell me
and therefore install a non-condensing boiler meaning I'm breaking the law
because I do not have exemption.
Or do I go by the book but install a Condensing boiler completely contrary
to Corgi (And they say the British Standard advice - document 6798 p4 clause
423) and possibly avoid having to remove my boiler 3 or 5 years down the
line because the shared stack (with other flats) is leaking due to
corrosion?
This confused me so much I contacted the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister
(ODPM) regarding their assessment form
(http://www.odpm.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1131465#TopOfPage).
As a result they are actually reviewing the situation as apparently this has
come up a few times.
However, I need a boiler ASAP / next week! Any advice on what I should do?
Thanks in advance
Dave
Christian McArdle
> condensing boiler as I do not score enough points going through the
> exemption procedure (see link later below).
It sounds like the council assessment is wrong.
As you are not permitted to connect to a metal drain (and this is in the
full procedure document), that particular installation option should be
disregarded, AIUI.
Connection to external drains is a second choice anyway. Is there no way it
can be connected to an internal drain?
Christian.
Jerry
<dave...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
pretty piece of paper to wave in the air saying that the new boiler
conforms with current regs but so what? The only time anyone is likely
to question it is if I sell the house and I can't see a sale falling
through over that.
I don't have a problem with any rules or regs that improve safety. What
I do have a problem with is when I am forced to pay for additional works
where the cost to me personally is totally disproportionate to any
environmental benefit. People get on a jet for their holidays and their
personal portion of the aircraft's fuel burn would keep their central
heating running for a year yet 2 jags ignores this and concentrates
instead on making us pay dearly for minor domestic improvements in
carbon emission that are trivial by comparison.
--
Jerry
john.s...@ntlworld.com
> My Corgi engineer told me I cannot have a condensing boiler because I am
> on the second floor and I have a cast iron stack. I phoned Corgi and they
> clearly state the condensate waste SHOULD NOT go into metal waste pipes.
> If you phone Corgi technical help they will tell you the same. I am not in
> a position to build an alternative waste trap because I live in a flat.
...
> .. do I go by the book but install a Condensing boiler completely contrary
> to Corgi (And they say the British Standard advice - document 6798 p4
> clause 423) and possibly avoid having to remove my boiler 3 or 5 years
> down the line because the shared stack (with other flats) is leaking due
> to corrosion?
My reading of BS6798, section:
4.2.3 Condensing Boilers
COMMENTARY & RECOMMENDATIONS ON 4.2.3
...
c) The choice of condensate drainage pipe
says that the condensate drainage pipe itself should be plastic (it names
PVC, ABS etc) but says nothing about the material of the system it is
connected into.
However I asked CORGI Technical Helpline and their interpretation is, as you
have been told, that the condensate should not go into a system which is
cast iron even downstream of the condensate drainage pipe itself.
> So this leaves me stuck. Do I break the law and go with what Corgi tell me
> and therefore install a non-condensing boiler meaning I'm breaking the law
> because I do not have exemption.
>
> However, I need a boiler ASAP / next week! Any advice on what I should do?
> ... my local building control would not authorise my exemption from a
> condensing boiler as I do not score enough points going through the
> exemption procedure (see link later below).
As Christian says, the option for installaing the boiler with the condensate
going into the soil stack has to be discounted in assessing the options and
totting up the points for where a condensing boiler can be installed. If
this results in a score which allows you to install a non-condensing boiler
then you may do this.
It is not up to your local building control if the boiler is fitted by a
CORGI installer as they can self-certify the installation under the
building regs. I missed the earlier thread so I don't know if you're
getting it done or DIYing, but getting your friendly local gas doggie to
ticket it up for you might be one option.
Aidan
Dave Smithz wrote:
>
> However, I need a boiler ASAP / next week! Any advice on what I should do?
Interesting. Thanks for the feed-back.
Options are;
1) Gravity drain in a new plastic pipe. I'd have thought going into the
CI stack below other wastes would dilute it sufficiently, but I haven't
looked at what the BS says.
2) Neutralise it at source, see the Viessmann link on the previous
post, then put the pH neutral condensate into the CI stack.
3) Get a condensate pump and pump it somewhere (through a loft, could
freeze? ) where you can install a plastic drain, or where there already
is one.
4) Get one of the other Corgis to fit a condenser; they will certify it
and they don't see any problems. They're the approved & certified
experts and who are we mere mortals to argue with them? Solve your
condensate disposal problem at a later date.
That's it, I think. Any other possibilities?
Dave Smithz
of the Deputy Prime Minister on this matter. But I Think it will be a wait
before any changes are introduced.
Some points to clear up .
* My boiler is being installed by a Corgi engineer. Of 3 quotes, only one
said about the cast iron stack pipe, I then started to investigate -what a
can of worms.
* I am on the top floor of a three story flat - no loft space available - no
plastic drainers - no option to build any (well certainly not within my
budget I do not fancy scaffolding the whole block and getting the paperwork
for that etc.)
So really the communal cast iron waste pipe used by all flats but with me on
top is the only option for it to go.
Maybe I just install a non-condensing and say what the hell. Really not sure
what to do.
Dave
"Aidan" <amc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1131622003.5...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Christian McArdle
You need to speak to the BCO and explain that any considered locations
involving using the cast-iron stack should be disregarded, as the procedure
says that cast-iron is not suitable and the stack is not owned by you. After
all, they wouldn't consider a location for the boiler in your neighbour's
house, so they can't consider an option that involves you replacing someone
else's pipework.
Christian.
Dave Smithz
"Christian McArdle" <cmcar...@nospam.yahooxxxx.co.uk> wrote in message
news:437344ad$0$23976$4d4e...@read.news.uk.uu.net...
> You need to speak to the BCO and explain that any considered locations
> involving using the cast-iron stack should be disregarded, as the
> procedure
> says that cast-iron is not suitable and the stack is not owned by you.
> After
> all, they wouldn't consider a location for the boiler in your neighbour's
> house, so they can't consider an option that involves you replacing
> someone
> else's pipework.
>
> Christian.
Yes, I wish they would listen to me. When I asked them to put it in writing
that I can install a condensing one, they wont do that either. I have now
asked ODPM to confirm that I have at least tried to raise this issue.
Just cannot decide what to do. Only just moved into this flat so don't
imagine I will be selling for at least 10 years (nut who knows) maybe I
should go ahead and just install the non-condensing one.
I believe it will be cheaper and easier to maintain anyway. Right??
What is the worse that can happen to me if I just install the
non-condensing??
Will the 79% efficiently compared to 91% actually make a big difference to
my fuel bill?
Thanks
Wingedcat
> my fuel bill?
Well with a non-condensing boiler, 79% of your gas bill is spent on
heating your house and 21% on heating the outside world. This means
that assuming an annual bill of £200 (roughly what I spend), £158 is
used productively and the other £42 goes out of the flue as waste
heat.
If you fitted a condensing boiler, if I have got my sums right you
would instead spend £158/91 * 100 which equates to £173.63 so you
would save £26.37 or about 13% a year.
If you are installing a boiler from scratch then fair play, but for me
at any rate it's certainly not worth replacing my boiler until the
current one packs up.
Luke
Christian McArdle
> imagine I will be selling for at least 10 years (nut who knows) maybe I
> should go ahead and just install the non-condensing one.
If you can't fit a condensing one, then you can't fit one. I would always
fit one if it was remotely possible.
Christian.
Andy
"Jerry" <je...@willow981.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:xdu$1jAriy...@willow981.freeserve.co.uk...
Hear Hear!
Andy
Doctor Drivel
"Wingedcat" <wing...@fsmail.net> wrote in message
news:1131638447....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
If you have an old cast iron boiler you will not be getting 79%, so in that
case it is worth replacing the boiler.
Ed Sirett
Whilst the condensate might corrode a metal pipe it's going to take a very
long time to do so and even longer when the condensate is being
periodically swilled down by other waste water from your flat.
However if you are worried that someone will try to stick the
possible demise (due to old age) of the CI stack on you then you will need
to get the exemption sorted. That means finding someone who will certify
that although there are not enough points for an exemption the absolute
(cf inconvenient) lack of a drain for the condensate is
clearly an absolute exemption.
As for the difference it might be 15% on/off the gas bill.
--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
john.s...@ntlworld.com
> I don't have a problem with any rules or regs that improve safety. What
> I do have a problem with is when I am forced to pay for additional works
> where the cost to me personally is totally disproportionate to any
> environmental benefit. People get on a jet for their holidays and their
> personal portion of the aircraft's fuel burn would keep their central
> heating running for a year yet 2 jags ignores this and concentrates
> instead on making us pay dearly for minor domestic improvements in
> carbon emission that are trivial by comparison.
Totally agree about the scandal of aircraft getting tax-free fuel etc, but
that doesn't mean it's wrong to increase energy efficiency elsewhere,
especially as a government could, if it had the gonads, tackle the former
practically overnight whereas improving the energy efficiency of the
housing stock takes decades.
Anyway what should happen with condensing boilers (and I think it is already
starting) is that the prices should fall to much the same level as
non-condensing boilers used to be before the change (or even become cheaper
when they form the bulk of the market). Look at prices of combis compared
to non-combis: the former contain far more work and materials but the
prices are relatively low because they're big sellers. Condensing boilers
contain far less extra compared to non-condis (a different heat exchanger
and some bits of plastic for the condensate drain) so there's no reason
their prices can't drop to non-condi levels as sales volumes increase and
manufacturers competing on price.
Oh, and I don't fly to my holidays :-)
Doctor Drivel
<john.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:QOOcf.41$D03...@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net...
> Jerry wrote:
>
> > I don't have a problem with any rules or regs that improve safety. What
> > I do have a problem with is when I am forced to pay for additional works
> > where the cost to me personally is totally disproportionate to any
> > environmental benefit.
> Totally agree about the scandal of aircraft getting tax-free fuel etc, but
> that doesn't mean it's wrong to increase energy efficiency elsewhere,
> especially as a government could, if it had the gonads, tackle the former
> practically overnight whereas improving the energy efficiency of the
> housing stock takes decades.
On the TV tonight. A nuclear power station will take 10 years to get into
service. Getting homes energy usage down by 50% is easy with existing
technology. In 10 years about 5 million homes will be built, then
efficiency in appliances and improving existing housing stock too.
Anything that saves energy is worth it., inc condensing boilers.
John Rumm
> Maybe I just install a non-condensing and say what the hell. Really not sure
> what to do.
If it were me, then I would go with an condensor drained into the CI
stack. Any corrosian of something like that will take a long time, and
you can always play dumb on the grounds that you were guided by your
CORGI. Make sure the connection to the stack is either below the others,
or better still mixed with them, and it will further reduce the
possibility of problems.
After all it is not like the prohibit you flushing tomato sauce or
vinegar down the sink!
--
Cheers,
John.
/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Fred
<john.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:QOOcf.41$D03...@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net...
> Jerry wrote:
>
> that doesn't mean it's wrong to increase energy efficiency elsewhere,
> especially as a government could, if it had the gonads, tackle the former
> practically overnight whereas improving the energy efficiency of the
> housing stock takes decades.
>
Tax of heating fuel and electricity in the UK is the lowest in Europe. If
Labour and Tory wets hadn't have voted against full VAT on heating fuel etc,
then I might have agreed with you. Airlines are taxed on landing and on
passengers.
If for airlines the taxes represented fuel used then this would be a
significant step forward.
Fred
"Dave Smithz" <dave...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MWJcf.458$rP3...@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> Yes, I wish they would listen to me. When I asked them to put it in
> writing that I can install a condensing one, they wont do that either. I
> have now asked ODPM to confirm that I have at least tried to raise this
> issue.
>
I would suggest you need to talk to your councillor and highlight this
problem particularly how BCO are going against guidelines CORGI adhere to.
In practice though I'd go for a condensing one and if later there is an
issue let CORGI deal with it. If one of their installers incorrectly
plumbed the condensate into a CI system then it's the installer's or CORGI's
problem and indeed why they carry insurance if there's any liability on your
part if the pipe perforates.
Dave Smithz
For the record, here is Vaillaints response:
"
If your requirement is for connection to a house soil and vent stack,
British Standard 6798:2000 gives this as a preferred method.
1) Internal termination to internal stack
The condensate drainage pipe should have a minimum diameter of 22mm with no
length restriction. It should incorporate a trap with a 75mm condensate seal
and be connected to the stack at a point at least 450mm above the invert of
the stack.
The condensate is acidic but not acid, in the normal course of events
liquids of an equal or great acidity are routinely poured down a sink or
toilet. The level is about the level of fruit juice or cola type drinks and
while not that palatable would not be considered hazardous if drunk. The
maximum condensate is only 2.2l/h but in normal practice will be much less
due to modulation of heat output. Therefore the connection between the
boiler outlet and stack pipe should be a form of plastic pipe not copper
pipe, once at the stack pipe and therefore into part of the normal drainage
system no restriction is put on the stack pipe material. So the installer is
half right in that the connection from the boiler should be in some form of
plastic but there is no such restriction in the stack pipe material. I am
surprised CORGI expressed any view on this matter as they normally refer
these matters to the manufacturer concerned as this is not directly to do
with gas safety.
I trust this is of some help.
"
I think I will go for the condisating boiler.
Thanks
john.s...@ntlworld.com
> Thanks guys.
>
> For the record, here is Vaillaints response:
>
> "
> If your requirement is for connection to a house soil and vent stack,
> British Standard 6798:2000 gives this as a preferred method.
>
> 1) Internal termination to internal stack
...
> The condensate is acidic but not acid, in the normal course of events
> liquids of an equal or great acidity are routinely poured down a sink or
> toilet. The level is about the level of fruit juice or cola type drinks
> and while not that palatable would not be considered hazardous if drunk.
> The maximum condensate is only 2.2l/h but in normal practice will be much
> less due to modulation of heat output. Therefore the connection between
> the boiler outlet and stack pipe should be a form of plastic pipe not
> copper pipe, once at the stack pipe and therefore into part of the normal
> drainage system no restriction is put on the stack pipe material. So the
> installer is half right in that the connection from the boiler should be
> in some form of plastic but there is no such restriction in the stack pipe
> material. I am surprised CORGI expressed any view on this matter as they
> normally refer these matters to the manufacturer concerned as this is not
> directly to do with gas safety.
Thanks for that.
The bloke I spoke to at the CORGI Technical Help line seemed to be
recommending that I - as an installer - should not connect a condensate
drain into a CI stack from an arse-covering point of view: "how do you know
the condensate won't corrode the soil stack?". In other words if the stack
corrodes through (for whatever reason) you don't want someone pointing the
finger at your installation and blaming you (and possibly suing you for the
damage) for it.
Tony Bryer
> In 10 years about 5 million homes will be built, then
> efficiency in appliances and improving existing housing stock too.
I doubt whether we will build half this number. And most will be
additional houses, so no matter how energy efficient they are total
energy usage will go up. And of course there is a lot of embodied
energy in building materials.
Improving the existing housing stock is a nice idea, but ISTM that
gains in some places are being cancelled out by other changes, for
example power showers that use twice as much hot water as older ones
did, this fashion for having numerous 50W spot bulbs everywhere instead
of a single 60W or 100W bulb, and very probably the more widespread
adoption of domestic aircon.
--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]
Doctor Drivel
"Tony Bryer" <to...@delme.sda.co.uk> wrote in message
news:VA.000034a...@delme.sda.co.uk...
> In article <4373bd4b$0$81706$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net>,
> Doctor Drivel wrote:
> > In 10 years about 5 million homes will be built, then
> > efficiency in appliances and improving existing housing stock too.
>
> I doubt whether we will build half this number. And most will be
> additional houses, so no matter how energy efficient they are total
> energy usage will go up. And of course there is a lot of embodied
> energy in building materials.
>
> Improving the existing housing stock is a nice idea, but ISTM that
> gains in some places are being cancelled out by other changes, for
> example power showers that use twice as much hot water as older ones
> did, this fashion for having numerous 50W spot bulbs everywhere instead
> of a single 60W or 100W bulb, and very probably the more widespread
> adoption of domestic aircon.
It need tightening up. The heating of conservatories also wastes energy, so
maybe proper built extensions and no conservatories, which may mean updating
the minimum spec of homes. It all makes sense and is easy to do. The
air-tight test is due next year, which will make matters better. All the
government has to do is legislate, and the builders build to that level,
costing the taxpayer nothing at all. The minimum threshold of energy usage
on appliances should be raised as well as times have moved on since they set
it.
Town planning so less car usage, etc, In 10 years it all can make a hell of
a difference.
Jerry
<dave...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>
If you install a condensing boiler in your flat the sun will have gone
supernova in X squillion years time before the condensate from your
condensing boiler will rot your cast iron waste pipe.
You can expend vast amounts of time and money trying to comply with that
wanker Prescotts brainless crap legislation or you can just go ahead and
install the f**king thing.
--
Jerry
manat...@hotmail.com
Tony Bryer wrote:
> In article <4373bd4b$0$81706$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net>,
> Doctor Drivel wrote:
> > In 10 years about 5 million homes will be built, then
> > efficiency in appliances and improving existing housing stock too.
>
> I doubt whether we will build half this number. And most will be
> additional houses, so no matter how energy efficient they are total
> energy usage will go up. And of course there is a lot of embodied
> energy in building materials.
>
> Improving the existing housing stock is a nice idea, but ISTM that
> gains in some places are being cancelled out by other changes, for
> example power showers that use twice as much hot water as older ones
> did, this fashion for having numerous 50W spot bulbs everywhere instead
> of a single 60W or 100W bulb, and very probably the more widespread
> adoption of domestic aircon.
So the new way of assessing council tax should look at energy
efficiency of each home. I'd rather pay on that basis than whether or
not I have a nice view (I do so I'm alright jack ;-) since it's
something everyone can do something about.
The only way we'll improve energy efficiency in this country is through
legislation and penalties for those who are not prepared to do their
bit.
And yes, aircraft fuel should be subject to tax, just like road and
rail transport.
MBQ
Chris Bacon
> So the new way of assessing council tax should look at energy
> efficiency of each home. I'd rather pay on that basis than whether or
> not I have a nice view (I do so I'm alright jack ;-) since it's
> something everyone can do something about.
Up to a point... loft insulation is easy, draught-proofing
slightly less so, insulating under floors not very easy,
and what does one do about 9" thick solid walls?
Doctor Drivel
"Chris Bacon" <chris...@thai.com> wrote in message
news:4374cc25$1...@newsgate.x-privat.org...
External insulation and rendering or cladding. Looks brill.
Doctor Drivel
"Jerry" <je...@willow981.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:xdu$1jAriy...@willow981.freeserve.co.uk...
The likes of you should be locked up.
Dave Plowman (News)
Chris Bacon <chris...@thai.com> wrote:
> Up to a point... loft insulation is easy, draught-proofing
> slightly less so, insulating under floors not very easy,
> and what does one do about 9" thick solid walls?
If you're Dribble you recommend cladding them with some ugly board.
--
*Bills travel through the mail at twice the speed of cheques *
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Andy Hall
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <4374cc25$1...@newsgate.x-privat.org>,
> Chris Bacon <chris...@thai.com> wrote:
>> Up to a point... loft insulation is easy, draught-proofing
>> slightly less so, insulating under floors not very easy,
>> and what does one do about 9" thick solid walls?
>
>If you're Dribble you recommend cladding them with some ugly board.
Yes but you could "enhance" it by painting it red and then painting in
the "mortar" in white. A skilful artist can make a convincing job
of this and it saves on the pointing.
--
.andy
Doctor Drivel
"Andy Hall" aka Matt <an...@hall.nospam> wrote in message
news:uagan1lh7a9q7jnii...@4ax.com...
Another great suggestion from uk.d-i-y!
Owain
>>If you're Dribble you recommend cladding them with some ugly board.
> Yes but you could "enhance" it by painting it red and then painting in
> the "mortar" in white. A skilful artist can make a convincing job
> of this and it saves on the pointing.
Paint on some attractive climbing plant as well and save on pruning too.
A cunning arrangement of hydraulics on a timer can move all the flower
heads simultaneously to follow the sun throughout the day for added
realism.
Owain
Andy Hall
Imagine my surprise when I pruned these and got a squirt of hydraulic
oil in my eye !
--
.andy
Jerry
Doctor Drivel <Min...@nospam.com> writes
...........trimmed for brevity................
>
>> >
>>
>> I just ignored 2 jags new rules and did my own thing.
>
>The likes of you should be locked up.
>
>
Why's that then - please let us be party to the thought processes if any
that resulted in that cryptic statement.
--
Jerry
Doctor Drivel
> In article <437504b4$0$81688$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net>,
> Doctor Drivel <Min...@nospam.com> writes
>
> ...........trimmed for brevity................
> >>
> >> I just ignored 2 jags new rules and did my own thing.
> >
> >The likes of you should be locked up.
>
> Why's that then
Go to the people that matter and get yourself incarcerated.
Jerry
Doctor Drivel <Min...@nospam.com> writes
>
>"Jerry" <je...@willow981.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:N0RMhhAo$jeD...@willow981.freeserve.co.uk...
>> In article <437504b4$0$81688$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net>,
>> Doctor Drivel <Min...@nospam.com> writes
>>
>> ...........trimmed for brevity................
>> >>
>> >> I just ignored 2 jags new rules and did my own thing.
>> >
>> >The likes of you should be locked up.
>>
>> Why's that then
>
>Go to the people that matter and get yourself incarcerated.
>
you don't have any valid justification for your original statement. I
would suggest that you remove your fingers from the keyboard and insert
them in your nostrils where they might at least find some limited
usefulness.
--
Jerry