The Co-operative Bank: excuse me while I explode with rage and frustration

D.M. Procida

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Mar 3, 2004, 10:07:24 AM3/3/04

to

Today I got my password for the Co-operative Bank's "next-generation"
Internet banking service, known as "Acumen".

It only supports Windows and Internet Explorer 6.

Daniele
--
Apple Juice Ltd
Chapter Arts Centre
Market Road www.apple-juice.co.uk
Cardiff CF5 1QE 029 2019 0140

X Kyle M Thompson

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Mar 3, 2004, 10:24:00 AM3/3/04

to

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, D.M. Procida wrote:
> Today I got my password for the Co-operative Bank's "next-generation"
> Internet banking service, known as "Acumen".
>
> It only supports Windows and Internet Explorer 6.

Odd, coming from such an ethical company, I thought it would have
been, oh VMS only or something, so avoid all big companies

:)
--
I'll get you any deal that you like
Ten sweets for a mountain bike you like

Woody

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Mar 3, 2004, 11:02:06 AM3/3/04

to

D.M. Procida wrote:
> Today I got my password for the Co-operative Bank's "next-generation"
> Internet banking service, known as "Acumen".
>
> It only supports Windows and Internet Explorer 6.

Progress for you then!

So are you going to whinge or leave?

--
Woody
Alienrat Design Ltd
www.alienrat.com

D.M. Procida

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Mar 3, 2004, 12:05:51 PM3/3/04

to

Woody <use...@alienrat.co.uk> wrote:

> D.M. Procida wrote:
> > Today I got my password for the Co-operative Bank's "next-generation"
> > Internet banking service, known as "Acumen".
> >
> > It only supports Windows and Internet Explorer 6.
>
> Progress for you then!
>
> So are you going to whinge or leave?

I've been blistering a few ears today on the phone. I'm writing a
blistering letter.

And there are four business accounts, two credit cards, two personal
current accounts and an ISA that they will never see again if I'm ot
happy by the end of it.

The part that I didn't mention, because nearly every time I write it I
don't quite believe it, is that I got a letter from them today saying
that their existing Internet banking service will be withdrawn in 10
days' time.

Jon B

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Mar 3, 2004, 12:32:30 PM3/3/04

to

D.M. Procida <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:

> Woody <use...@alienrat.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > D.M. Procida wrote:
> > > Today I got my password for the Co-operative Bank's "next-generation"
> > > Internet banking service, known as "Acumen".
> > >
> > > It only supports Windows and Internet Explorer 6.
> >

Suppose we don't know yet whether that translates to 'won't work' or
just 'not tested' although based on the fact it took them a while to get
the old site os10 compatible rather than using ie under classic I'm not
holding my breath.
--
Jon
jon.br...@btinternet.com

D.M. Procida

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Mar 3, 2004, 12:49:45 PM3/3/04

to

Jon B <jon.bradbur...@btinternet.com> wrote:

> > > > Today I got my password for the Co-operative Bank's "next-generation"
> > > > Internet banking service, known as "Acumen".
> > > >
> > > > It only supports Windows and Internet Explorer 6.

> Suppose we don't know yet whether that translates to 'won't work' or
> just 'not tested' although based on the fact it took them a while to get
> the old site os10 compatible rather than using ie under classic I'm not
> holding my breath.

No, we know alright, the idiots.

J. Simon van der Walt

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Mar 3, 2004, 4:22:13 PM3/3/04

to

D.M. Procida <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:

> Today I got my password for the Co-operative Bank's "next-generation"
> Internet banking service, known as "Acumen".
>
> It only supports Windows and Internet Explorer 6.

Whaaaaat? I bank with Co-op; I haven't heard anything about this. Jeez,
I just got through thanking them for how well their *existing* page
works in OS9 and OSX!

--
J. Simon van der Walt - Composer
<http://www.jsimonvanderwalt.com>

Luke Bosman

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Mar 3, 2004, 4:37:49 PM3/3/04

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Tim Hodgson <thn...@poboxmolar.com> wrote:

> D.M. Procida <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > The part that I didn't mention, because nearly every time I write it I
> > don't quite believe it, is that I got a letter from them today saying
> > that their existing Internet banking service will be withdrawn in 10
> > days' time.
>

> Please tell me you're only talking about business banking (though that's
> bad enough)?
>
> I'm seriously considering taking my overdraft elsewhere.

Likewise. As soon as I get any information from them that confirms this
sorry state of affairs, I'll be expressing my dissatisfaction.

Luke

Drew McLellan

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Mar 3, 2004, 5:29:44 PM3/3/04

to

D.M. Procida wrote:

> Today I got my password for the Co-operative Bank's "next-generation"
> Internet banking service, known as "Acumen".
>
> It only supports Windows and Internet Explorer 6.

Not so much "next generation" as "bloody stupid".

d.

Wayne Stuart

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Mar 3, 2004, 5:42:41 PM3/3/04

to

D.M. Procida <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:

> Today I got my password for the Co-operative Bank's "next-generation"
> Internet banking service, known as "Acumen".
>
> It only supports Windows and Internet Explorer 6.
>
> Daniele

Isn't Smile part of the Co-op bank? Is that still going to work? I'd
actually been weighing up banks as a replacement for my long standing
Yorkshite Bank account and their PeeCee only stance. Is Smile to be
crossed off my list too?

--
This message was brought to you by Wayne Stuart - Have a nice day!

Stuart Bell

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Mar 3, 2004, 6:44:54 PM3/3/04

to

Wayne Stuart <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> Isn't Smile part of the Co-op bank? Is that still going to work? I'd
> actually been weighing up banks as a replacement for my long standing
> Yorkshite Bank account and their PeeCee only stance. Is Smile to be
> crossed off my list too?

Go for Halifax. Dead simple. Decent current account as well.

Stuart

--
Spamfritterspam exists only in the world of the address
harvesting spam bot. Try stuartsmacs at the same domain
if you want to email me. Dell Europe charged my credit
card £1618.26 and then cancelled my order. Bargepoles!

Jon B

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Mar 3, 2004, 7:12:41 PM3/3/04

to

Tim Hodgson <thn...@poboxmolar.com> wrote:

> D.M. Procida <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > The part that I didn't mention, because nearly every time I write it I
> > don't quite believe it, is that I got a letter from them today saying
> > that their existing Internet banking service will be withdrawn in 10
> > days' time.
>

> Please tell me you're only talking about business banking (though that's
> bad enough)?
>
> I'm seriously considering taking my overdraft elsewhere.

I'll thrown the branch in for First Direct, I've never had any bother
with them after moving from being a rather miffed yorkshire bank
customer, and they don't charge for overdrafts, well not the smaller
ones anyway. AFAIK internet banking has always worked on the mac too.
--
Jon
jon.br...@btinternet.com

Wayne Stuart

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Mar 3, 2004, 8:05:37 PM3/3/04

to

Stuart Bell <spamfri...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> Wayne Stuart <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> > Isn't Smile part of the Co-op bank? Is that still going to work? I'd
> > actually been weighing up banks as a replacement for my long standing
> > Yorkshite Bank account and their PeeCee only stance. Is Smile to be
> > crossed off my list too?
>
> Go for Halifax. Dead simple. Decent current account as well.
>
> Stuart

Already got a websaver account with them, so it would be the easiest
option, but somehow, I just don't trust them. Too many horror stories
over the years. I dunno. We'll see.

D.M. Procida

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Mar 3, 2004, 8:27:58 PM3/3/04

to

D.M. Procida <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:

> Today I got my password for the Co-operative Bank's "next-generation"
> Internet banking service, known as "Acumen".
>
> It only supports Windows and Internet Explorer 6.

Don't like this state of affairs? Visit
<http://www.petitiononline.com/coopbank/petition.html>, and if you're a
customer of the Co-operative Bank or smile.co.uk, please sign it.

Stuart Bell

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Mar 4, 2004, 3:04:57 AM3/4/04

to

Wayne Stuart <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> Already got a websaver account with them, so it would be the easiest
> option, but somehow, I just don't trust them. Too many horror stories
> over the years. I dunno. We'll see.

It could be the case that, as in many similar circumstances, you've
heard about the 0.001% of people with problems. I've been with them 15
years and they haven't put a foot wrong to date.

(Current plus Web Saver) is an effective pair of accounts.

Stuar

D.M. Procida

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Mar 4, 2004, 4:19:08 AM3/4/04

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D.M. Procida <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:

> Don't like this state of affairs? Visit
> <http://www.petitiononline.com/coopbank/petition.html>, and if you're a
> customer of the Co-operative Bank or smile.co.uk, please sign it.

Here's a more comprehensive circular about the petition. Please forward
it to relevant individuals, mailing lists, newsgroups and websites.
Please don't create a nuisance with it by sending it to everyone in your
address book or posting it all over the net. Only send it where readers
are likely to be interested in the issues.

Thanks,

Daniele
--------
The Co-operative Bank has just launched a new business banking service,
Acumen, to replace its existing service. The new service, unlike the old
one, supports only Microsoft Windows and Internet Explorer.

This means that Macintosh, Linux and other non-Windows users will be
excluded from their Internet banking service within a few days, when the
old service is withdrawn.

Personal account services and smile.co.uk services could be next if the
Co-operative Bank extend this policy.

There is an online petition at <http://www.petitiononline.com/coopbank/>
which urges the Bank to reverse this policy immediately, and to provide
Internet services which are universally accessible.

Please read the petition, and sign it if appropriate. The Bank is
already dealing with a number of anxious and alarmed customers over this
issue, and a petition of this sort will help reinforce the point that
proper care must be taken to provide universally accessible Internet
services.

You should sign the petition if you are a Co-operative bank customer and
you do not believe that its services should be restricted to Microsoft
Windows users only.

Do please forward this message or point out the petition to other
customers of the Bank who may be interested in signing.

Here are a few reasons why you might wish to sign the petition:

1) you don't use Windows, and you use the Bank's Internet business
banking service

2) you don't use Windows, and you use the Bank's Internet personal
banking service, and you are worried that it too may be changed to
exlude you at some point in the future

3) you feel it is wrong that the Bank should arbitrarily exclude
some of its customers from its services simply because of the
computer system they happen to be using

4) you believe that the Internet is founded upon open standards, and
that the Bank, like other organisations which use the Internet to
deliver services, should adopt open standards and not subvert them

5) you believe it is harmful to users of your computer system
(Apple Macintosh, GNU/Linux, or other) that companies should feel
they can ignore you when they provide their services

6) you believe it is harmful to users of your computer system that
companies feel they need only meet the needs of Microsoft Windows
users

7) you believe it is harmful to the Internet as a whole if companies
feel they can ignore the open standards which guarantee universal
access to Internet technology

8) you believe it is harmful to the Internet as a whole if companies
feel they need only to meet the closed, proprietary standards that
Microsoft uses

9) you feel that the market position of Microsoft, a convicted
monopolist currently facing further anti-trust action in the EU,
the USA and Japan, is a dangerous one for the computer industry, and
that the Bank's decision to exclude non-Windows users from its
business banking service will serve to entrench this market
position
---------
--
Apple Juice Ltd www.apple-juice.co.uk

Chapter Arts Centre
Market Road

Woody

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Mar 4, 2004, 4:32:56 AM3/4/04

to

D.M. Procida wrote:
> D.M. Procida <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Today I got my password for the Co-operative Bank's "next-generation"
>> Internet banking service, known as "Acumen".
>>
>> It only supports Windows and Internet Explorer 6.
>
> Don't like this state of affairs? Visit
> <http://www.petitiononline.com/coopbank/petition.html>, and if you're
> a customer of the Co-operative Bank or smile.co.uk, please sign it.

Wouldn't it be more effective to bombard them with individual emails than
sign a petition somewhere else?

Ian G Batten

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Mar 4, 2004, 4:41:08 AM3/4/04

to

In article <1ga49pb.1y6o27laqmbe3N%real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk>,

D.M. Procida <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:
> 9) you feel that the market position of Microsoft, a convicted
> monopolist currently facing further anti-trust action in the EU,
> the USA and Japan, is a dangerous one for the computer industry, and
> that the Bank's decision to exclude non-Windows users from its
> business banking service will serve to entrench this market
> position

Quite so. Which shows the Co-Op bank's marketing claims about being
somehow more ethical that other banks are just that:marketing claims.
Underneath any sort of bank is...a bank.

ian

Arthur Clune

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Mar 4, 2004, 4:50:49 AM3/4/04

to

In uk.comp.os.linux Ian G Batten <I.G.B...@batten.eu.org> wrote:

: Quite so. Which shows the Co-Op bank's marketing claims about being

: somehow more ethical that other banks are just that:marketing claims.
: Underneath any sort of bank is...a bank.

No, I disagree. They are better than most other banks. Clearly
they are still a bank, and we are in a world of shades of grey,
but I still think they are better.

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

D.M. Procida

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Mar 4, 2004, 4:56:48 AM3/4/04

to

Woody <use...@alienrat.co.uk> wrote:

> > Don't like this state of affairs? Visit
> > <http://www.petitiononline.com/coopbank/petition.html>, and if you're
> > a customer of the Co-operative Bank or smile.co.uk, please sign it.
>
> Wouldn't it be more effective to bombard them with individual emails than
> sign a petition somewhere else?

It's worth doing both, the former if you have the time, the latter if
you don't. The best thing to do is to phone - which takes up someone's
time there - and follow it up with a letter - which takes up physical
space there.

But a petition is very useful as a single point of visibility, and
certainly petitions do work just because of this reason.

Ian G Batten

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Mar 4, 2004, 5:04:31 AM3/4/04

to

In article <c26u5p$i05$3...@pump1.york.ac.uk>,

Arthur Clune <aj...@york.ac.uk> wrote:
> In uk.comp.os.linux Ian G Batten <I.G.B...@batten.eu.org> wrote:
>
> : Quite so. Which shows the Co-Op bank's marketing claims about being
> : somehow more ethical that other banks are just that:marketing claims.
> : Underneath any sort of bank is...a bank.
>
> No, I disagree. They are better than most other banks. Clearly

How do you know? There's their marketing speil, and...what? Of course,
if you're right, then as a rough demographic guess a company that really
did have an ethical position would have a disproportionate number of
Macintosh and Linux users. Since they don't care about anyone other
than M$ sheep, they presumably don't believe their demographic reflects
their marketing.

> they are still a bank, and we are in a world of shades of grey,
> but I still think they are better.

Do any of the other high-street clearers cosy up to Microsoft in the
same way?

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Mar 4, 2004, 6:06:47 AM3/4/04

to

In article <c2724f$d32$3...@pump1.york.ac.uk>,

Arthur Clune <aj...@york.ac.uk> wrote:
> In uk.comp.os.linux Ian G Batten <I.G.B...@batten.eu.org> wrote:
>
> : How do you know? There's their marketing speil, and...what? Of course,
> : if you're right, then as a rough demographic guess a company that really
> : did have an ethical position would have a disproportionate number of
> : Macintosh and Linux users. Since they don't care about anyone other
> : than M$ sheep, they presumably don't believe their demographic reflects
> : their marketing.
>
> So why are Linux users more ethical?

I didn't mean to say that. I believe, based on some experience of the
scene, that sceptical neophiles who use Linux and Macs are more likely
to be sceptical neopiles over other topics. I suspect that a bank which
adopts an ethical position will find that a greater percentage of its
customer base will use non-M$ computing than a more commodity bank. I
also suspect, for example, that a disproportionate number of people who
buy fancy sports gear use Macintoshes, a lesson boo.com somewhat
ignored.

> The co-op has good policies about arms companys, third world stuff,
> etc etc. No other bank does. This makes them better. Not perfect, but
> better.

Then if you're prepared to buy a M$ computer to access this ethical
nirvana, good luck to you. Co-Op are saying, it would appear, ``to bank
with us, use Microsoft''. I don't believe M$ are that much of an
ethical company with regard to arms companies, third world stuff, etc,
etc.

ian

Chris Ridd

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Mar 4, 2004, 6:36:42 AM3/4/04

to

On 4/3/04 9:19 am, in article
1ga49pb.1y6o27laqmbe3N%real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk, "D.M.
Procida" <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:

> D.M. Procida <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Don't like this state of affairs? Visit
>> <http://www.petitiononline.com/coopbank/petition.html>, and if you're a
>> customer of the Co-operative Bank or smile.co.uk, please sign it.
>
> Here's a more comprehensive circular about the petition. Please forward
> it to relevant individuals, mailing lists, newsgroups and websites.
> Please don't create a nuisance with it by sending it to everyone in your
> address book or posting it all over the net. Only send it where readers
> are likely to be interested in the issues.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Daniele
> --------
> The Co-operative Bank has just launched a new business banking service,
> Acumen, to replace its existing service. The new service, unlike the old
> one, supports only Microsoft Windows and Internet Explorer.
>
> This means that Macintosh, Linux and other non-Windows users will be
> excluded from their Internet banking service within a few days, when the
> old service is withdrawn.

I think you previously mentioned they required IE *6*, so that even
disallows many users of earlier versions of IE. Is that worth mentioning?

Cheers,

Chris

D.M. Procida

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Mar 4, 2004, 6:50:13 AM3/4/04

to

Chris Ridd <chri...@mac.com> wrote:

> > This means that Macintosh, Linux and other non-Windows users will be
> > excluded from their Internet banking service within a few days, when the
> > old service is withdrawn.
>
> I think you previously mentioned they required IE *6*, so that even
> disallows many users of earlier versions of IE. Is that worth mentioning?

Yes, probably, depending upon whom you're trying to get to sign the
petition. No point in bombarding people with too much information.

Daniele

MJ Ray

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Mar 4, 2004, 7:39:52 AM3/4/04

to

"Arthur Clune" <aj...@york.ac.uk> wrote:
> So why are Linux users more ethical?

Free software producers seem more ethical, as they have to work hard to
lock their customers in, instead of letting them shop around. Most of
them don't bother, so we have more competition in the market and lower
barriers to entry.

zoara

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Mar 4, 2004, 8:37:12 AM3/4/04

to

Ian Hunter <ihu...@despammed.com> wrote:

> Wayne Stuart <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> > Isn't Smile part of the Co-op bank? Is that still going to work? I'd
> > actually been weighing up banks as a replacement for my long standing
> > Yorkshite Bank account and their PeeCee only stance. Is Smile to be
> > crossed off my list too?
>
> I hope not, I've just moved to smile.

I've sent them a secure message asking them.

Worryingly, when I read your post, I went to check if they replied, and
got this:

-------------------------------------------------

temporarily suspended

The Internet Banking service has been temporarily suspended whilst
essential maintenance work is being carried out.

Normal service is scheduled to resume at 14:00 hrs - 04 March

We apologise for any inconvenience caused.

-------------------------------------------------

I'm sure it's nothing to worry about. Is it?

-z-

--
eh?

Arthur Clune

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Mar 4, 2004, 9:04:14 AM3/4/04

to

In uk.comp.os.linux MJ Ray <m...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

: Free software producers seem more ethical, as they have to work hard to

: lock their customers in, instead of letting them shop around. Most of
: them don't bother, so we have more competition in the market and lower
: barriers to entry.

Hm. I'd never want to confuse "competition" and "low barriers to entry"
with ethical behaviour personally.

Malcolm Wallace

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Mar 4, 2004, 9:05:20 AM3/4/04

to

Ian G Batten <I.G.B...@batten.eu.org> writes:

> Quite so. Which shows the Co-Op bank's marketing claims about being
> somehow more ethical that other banks are just that:marketing claims.
> Underneath any sort of bank is...a bank.

I note that the Co-op bank website says:

We are continually taking steps to improve the Internet Banking
service by making it more accessible to different operating systems
and browsers which may be used by customers with disabilities.

We have designed the service to meet the W3C 'A' standards
recommended by the World Wide Web Consortium, which has been set
up to promote world wide standards of access and to encourage
wider use of the internet.

The Personal Internet Banking service has been designed to be
accessible to the most popular browsers. ...
For Business customers your set up remains the same.

So moving to Windows-only would seem to be a case of not following
their own published policy.

Regards,
Malcolm

J. Simon van der Walt

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Mar 4, 2004, 9:43:35 AM3/4/04

to

D.M. Procida <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:

> Today I got my password for the Co-operative Bank's "next-generation"
> Internet banking service, known as "Acumen".
>
> It only supports Windows and Internet Explorer 6.

I just phoned them up. Customer service person didn't seem to think the
Co-op bank supported macs at all, then slightly panicked, realised she
didn't know quite what she was talking about, and suggested I called the
Internet Banking helpline.

The guy there gave me a pretty categoric assurance that Acumen was
specifically targetted at business customers, and they had no intention
of rolling it out for home users. He repeated several times with some
pride how they had spent three years developing the current page and
making it W3C compliant.

If this is to be believed, I don't think us home customers have much to
worry about; I didn't ask about Smile, but I would imagine this would
stay as it is also. Which of course is no help to the business
customers!

Jeremy

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Mar 4, 2004, 10:26:02 AM3/4/04

to

real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk (D.M. Procida) wrote in message news:<1ga2ub5.1ugsus114qfffrN%real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk>...

> Today I got my password for the Co-operative Bank's "next-generation"
> Internet banking service, known as "Acumen".
>
> It only supports Windows and Internet Explorer 6.
>

> Daniele

Well, when I visit my online bank, First Direct, I get the following
splash screen:

Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 issue
Microsoft have released details advising that Internet Explorer users
may experience difficulties with some secure internet sites, such as
internet banking, following the installation of their recent security
patch (Q832894, released 02-February-2004).

So it seems that the Co-op are not only a bunch of Micro$oft-loving
weenies, they are a bunch of IGNORANT Micro$oft-loving weenies.

Anyway - a big plug for First Direct, who are excellent (even if they
do invest your money in drug cartels, third world sweat-shops,
prostitution, toxic waste, etc etc)

J;

Woody

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Mar 4, 2004, 11:45:20 AM3/4/04

to

J. Simon van der Walt wrote:
> D.M. Procida <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Today I got my password for the Co-operative Bank's "next-generation"
>> Internet banking service, known as "Acumen".
>>
>> It only supports Windows and Internet Explorer 6.
>
> I just phoned them up. Customer service person didn't seem to think
> the Co-op bank supported macs at all, then slightly panicked,
> realised she didn't know quite what she was talking about, and
> suggested I called the Internet Banking helpline.
>
> The guy there gave me a pretty categoric assurance that Acumen was
> specifically targetted at business customers, and they had no
> intention of rolling it out for home users. He repeated several times
> with some pride how they had spent three years developing the current
> page and making it W3C compliant.

It is odd they are going backwards - I recently had a letter from the HSBC
telling me (with some pride) how their new business internet banking worked
with the Mac.

D.M. Procida

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Mar 4, 2004, 12:00:49 PM3/4/04

to

Woody <use...@alienrat.co.uk> wrote:

> > the Co-op bank supported macs at all, then slightly panicked,
> > realised she didn't know quite what she was talking about, and
> > suggested I called the Internet Banking helpline.
> >
> > The guy there gave me a pretty categoric assurance that Acumen was
> > specifically targetted at business customers, and they had no
> > intention of rolling it out for home users. He repeated several times
> > with some pride how they had spent three years developing the current
> > page and making it W3C compliant.
>
> It is odd they are going backwards - I recently had a letter from the HSBC
> telling me (with some pride) how their new business internet banking worked
> with the Mac.

I spoke to them again now. It's clear that they still don't get it. They
think that it's a question of whether or not they support Macs as well
as PCs, but quite clearly it isn't: it's a question of whether they
support open standards or not.

PeterD

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Mar 4, 2004, 12:19:34 PM3/4/04

to

Stuart Bell <spamfri...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> Wayne Stuart <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> > Already got a websaver account with them, so it would be the easiest
> > option, but somehow, I just don't trust them. Too many horror stories
> > over the years. I dunno. We'll see.
>
> It could be the case that, as in many similar circumstances, you've
> heard about the 0.001% of people with problems. I've been with them 15
> years and they haven't put a foot wrong to date.

When I first got their credit card, I was overdue a payment and they
rang up, let me make the payment there and then and didn't charge the
late payment fee. That endeared them to me for years, but recently I
called to say how come you're offering newbies 9% and still charging me
15%? They said they'd give me a better rate, but haven't. Time to move
cc again I think, then come back as a newbie in a few months after the
0% runs out on the new card.

--
Pd

Woody

unread,

Mar 4, 2004, 12:19:17 PM3/4/04

to

D.M. Procida wrote:
> Woody <use...@alienrat.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>> the Co-op bank supported macs at all, then slightly panicked,
>>> realised she didn't know quite what she was talking about, and
>>> suggested I called the Internet Banking helpline.
>>>
>>> The guy there gave me a pretty categoric assurance that Acumen was
>>> specifically targetted at business customers, and they had no
>>> intention of rolling it out for home users. He repeated several
>>> times with some pride how they had spent three years developing the
>>> current page and making it W3C compliant.
>>
>> It is odd they are going backwards - I recently had a letter from
>> the HSBC telling me (with some pride) how their new business
>> internet banking worked with the Mac.
>
> I spoke to them again now. It's clear that they still don't get it.
> They think that it's a question of whether or not they support Macs
> as well as PCs, but quite clearly it isn't: it's a question of
> whether they support open standards or not.

Indeed - In my case they wouldn't be supporting the PC either as I don't use
internet explorer on my PC either. One day these companies may realise that
if they just supported the standard they wouldn't get people ringing up and
complaining at them all the time.

PeterD

unread,

Mar 4, 2004, 12:43:32 PM3/4/04

to

Jeremy <jeremy...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Anyway - a big plug for First Direct, who are excellent (even if they
> do invest your money in drug cartels, third world sweat-shops,
> prostitution,

If I change my account to First Direct,
do they offer discounts with any of the above?

--
Pd

Joe

unread,

Mar 4, 2004, 2:36:12 PM3/4/04

to

In message
<1ga49pb.1y6o27laqmbe3N%real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk>,
D.M. Procida <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> writes

>
>Here are a few reasons why you might wish to sign the petition:
>

One that you missed: I usually use Windows, but do not use IE because of
its appalling security record (e.g. third-party cookie reading). I would
certainly never consider using it for such a critical purpose as making
financial transactions.

For the Coop to not merely encourage but *require* their customers to
use such an insecure program for such a purpose may leave them open to
legal action if any of their customers are robbed due to a security hole
in IE.
--
Joe

Ian Hunter

unread,

Mar 4, 2004, 2:41:46 PM3/4/04

to

zoara <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

I've just fired off a secure message as well. The fact that I could send
it means they haven't changed anything yet <g>.

--

Ian Hunter.

Larry Stoter

unread,

Mar 4, 2004, 5:02:31 PM3/4/04

to

D.M. Procida <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:

> Today I got my password for the Co-operative Bank's "next-generation"
> Internet banking service, known as "Acumen".
>
> It only supports Windows and Internet Explorer 6.
>

> Daniele

Oh dear ...

After sticking with NatWest for many years, despite their refusal to
provide on-line banking for non-M$ software, I was just about to start
the effort to move to a bank which didn't have its head up Mr Gates'
rear ... and my choice was Co-op.

:-((
--
Larry Stoter

Ian G Batten

unread,

Mar 4, 2004, 4:59:24 PM3/4/04

to

In article <20040304140520....@cs.york.ac.uk>,

Malcolm Wallace <mal...@cs.york.ac.uk> wrote:
> We are continually taking steps to improve the Internet Banking
> service by making it more accessible to different operating systems
> and browsers which may be used by customers with disabilities.

> So moving to Windows-only would seem to be a case of not following
> their own published policy.

Of course. And talking to them is a waste of time: pull your business,
as it's the only language banks understand. Best done if you're
actually making some money for them.

ian

D.M. Procida

unread,

Mar 4, 2004, 5:09:34 PM3/4/04

to

Larry Stoter <la...@cymru.freewire.co.uk> wrote:

> After sticking with NatWest for many years, despite their refusal to
> provide on-line banking for non-M$ software, I was just about to start
> the effort to move to a bank which didn't have its head up Mr Gates'
> rear ... and my choice was Co-op.

Can I suggest you take a minute or so of your time to speak to customer
services at the Bank, to explain why you won't be using their service?
Unless people actually do this, they won't notice.

zoara

unread,

Mar 4, 2004, 5:15:18 PM3/4/04

to

zoara <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> Ian Hunter <ihu...@despammed.com> wrote:
>
> > Wayne Stuart <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Isn't Smile part of the Co-op bank? Is that still going to work? I'd
> > > actually been weighing up banks as a replacement for my long standing
> > > Yorkshite Bank account and their PeeCee only stance. Is Smile to be
> > > crossed off my list too?
> >
> > I hope not, I've just moved to smile.
>
> I've sent them a secure message asking them.

A response:

| Hello Andy
|
| I assume you're referring to the new business banking system. I'm
| afraid I don't know much about that system or the decisions they've
| made. But you can e-mail them computer...@co-operativebank.co.uk
| about this.
|
| There are no plans to follow the banking system The Co-operative Bank
| have brought in. In fact we're in the process of redesigning our site
| to make it more W3C compliant which means it should work with a
| multitude of browsers and operating systems.
|
| Out of curiousity what do you currently use? The team I work is keen
| to gain as much information as possible about current issues with
| different operating systems and browsers.
|
| Thanks
|
| Anna.

--
eh?

Robert Marshall

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Mar 4, 2004, 5:41:38 PM3/4/04

to

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, j...@jretrading.com wrote:

>
> In message
> <1ga49pb.1y6o27laqmbe3N%real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk>,
> D.M. Procida <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> writes
>>
>>Here are a few reasons why you might wish to sign the petition:
>>
> One that you missed: I usually use Windows, but do not use IE
> because of its appalling security record (e.g. third-party cookie
> reading). I would certainly never consider using it for such a
> critical purpose as making financial transactions.

And I've just found today that www.saga.co.uk on their sign-in page
also appears to only work with IE, as does virgin wines

Robert (yes I am that old)
--
La grenouille songe..dans son château d'eau

Guy Fawkes

unread,

Mar 4, 2004, 6:36:57 PM3/4/04

to

Robert Marshall wrote:

http://www.jobcentreplus.gov.uk/
ditto......

--
Liquid Cooled PC? --> http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/

E-mail (rot-13) qnirahyy NG oyhrlbaqre QBG pb QBG hx
Cable server http://80.235.132.38:800/
EoF

Stuart Bell

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Mar 5, 2004, 3:17:58 AM3/5/04

to

zoara <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

What's the accronym for "Falls on the floor in total disbelief that one
company knows that there's more than one platform and more than one OS
family" ?

Stuart
--
Spamfritterspam exists only in the world of the address
harvesting spam bot. Try stuartsmacs at the same domain
if you want to email me. Dell Europe charged my credit
card £1618.26 and then cancelled my order. Bargepoles!

Stuart Bell

unread,

Mar 5, 2004, 3:17:57 AM3/5/04

to

PeterD <pd....@dsl.pipex.invalid> wrote:

> Time to move
> cc again I think, then come back as a newbie in a few months after the
> 0% runs out on the new card.

A chap on Radio 5 alerted me to an even better CC trick;

Some cc issuers - mainly the less responsible ones - allow balance
transfers to bank accounts at zero cost. They also give existing users
0% on balance transfers for several months. They're also the kind of CC
issuers who ramp up people's credit limits to stupid levels.

In my case, Egg have given me a £10,000 limit and have a 5 months 0%
offer. The plan is simple; transfer £10,000 to bank account. Bung it in
high interest accounts - as much in ISAs as possible. The week before
the end of the 0% offer, pay it all back. Result: around £150 for less
than an hours' work on the www.

MBNA, that most irresponsible of CC issuers, have given me a £17,600
credit limit. When their 0% offer comes. . . . . .

Robert Marshall

unread,

Mar 5, 2004, 3:39:37 AM3/5/04

to

On Thu, 04 Mar 2004, Guy Fawkes wrote:

> Robert Marshall wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, j...@jretrading.com wrote:
>>
>>> One that you missed: I usually use Windows, but do not use IE
>>> because of its appalling security record (e.g. third-party cookie
>>> reading). I would certainly never consider using it for such a
>>> critical purpose as making financial transactions.
>>
>> And I've just found today that www.saga.co.uk on their sign-in page
>> also appears to only work with IE, as does virgin wines
>>
>> Robert (yes I am that old)
>
> http://www.jobcentreplus.gov.uk/
> ditto......
>

[Ignoring followup - sorry]

Is there any web page database of large uk orientated firms that just
don't work with anything other than IE? I know that uk.c.o.l has a
list of banks in their FAQ maybe it should be extended (elsewhere?)

Then
- if you're having problems you can look it up before before you
start blaming your own inability - I went through a few
generate new passwords on the Virgin Wine site before
discovering that I really could type it correctly

- it would function as a name and shame resource

I'd suggest a usenet faq extension but then it becomes less potent as
a shaming device

Robert
--
Poetry's not window cleaning.
It breaks the glass.
-- Chase Twichell

Peter Ceresole

unread,

Mar 5, 2004, 3:45:14 AM3/5/04

to

In article <1ga61nt.1onaxh61opya1bN%spamfri...@dsl.pipex.com>,
spamfri...@dsl.pipex.com (Stuart Bell) wrote:

>What's the accronym for "Falls on the floor in total disbelief that one
>company knows that there's more than one platform and more than one OS
>family" ?

FOFITDTOCKTTMTOPAMTOOF.

HTH.

--
Peter

Bella Jones

unread,

Mar 5, 2004, 3:46:23 AM3/5/04

to

Stuart Bell <spamfri...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> PeterD <pd....@dsl.pipex.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Time to move
> > cc again I think, then come back as a newbie in a few months after the
> > 0% runs out on the new card.
>
> A chap on Radio 5 alerted me to an even better CC trick;
>
> Some cc issuers - mainly the less responsible ones - allow balance
> transfers to bank accounts at zero cost. They also give existing users
> 0% on balance transfers for several months. They're also the kind of CC
> issuers who ramp up people's credit limits to stupid levels.
>
> In my case, Egg have given me a £10,000 limit and have a 5 months 0%
> offer. The plan is simple; transfer £10,000 to bank account. Bung it in
> high interest accounts - as much in ISAs as possible. The week before
> the end of the 0% offer, pay it all back. Result: around £150 for less
> than an hours' work on the www.
>
> MBNA, that most irresponsible of CC issuers, have given me a £17,600
> credit limit. When their 0% offer comes. . . . . .

It's called 'stoozing', or 'tarting'.

I also got a big limit from Egg (not that big tho!). I am wondering if
their game is to give people such big starter limits that when the 6
months at 0% is up (and the person has presumably spent up to that
limit), the person finds it impossible to transfer the whole balance to
a new 0% card.

--
bellajonez at yahoo dot co dot uk

Andy Hewitt

unread,

Mar 5, 2004, 4:08:26 AM3/5/04

to

Stuart Bell <spamfri...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> PeterD <pd....@dsl.pipex.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Time to move
> > cc again I think, then come back as a newbie in a few months after the
> > 0% runs out on the new card.
>
> A chap on Radio 5 alerted me to an even better CC trick;
>
> Some cc issuers - mainly the less responsible ones - allow balance
> transfers to bank accounts at zero cost. They also give existing users
> 0% on balance transfers for several months. They're also the kind of CC
> issuers who ramp up people's credit limits to stupid levels.
>
> In my case, Egg have given me a £10,000 limit and have a 5 months 0%
> offer. The plan is simple; transfer £10,000 to bank account. Bung it in
> high interest accounts - as much in ISAs as possible. The week before
> the end of the 0% offer, pay it all back. Result: around £150 for less
> than an hours' work on the www.
>
> MBNA, that most irresponsible of CC issuers, have given me a £17,600
> credit limit. When their 0% offer comes. . . . . .

This has been something I've heard for some time actually. There's
nothing to stop you doing this all the time, and you get to borrow for
free.

However, my wife worked in a bank, and you do need to be careful about
all these applications hitting on your credit scoring. Too many could
have a negative affect.

--
Andy Hewitt ** FAF#1, (Ex-OSOS#5) - FJ1200 ABS
Honda Concerto 16v: Windows free zone (Mac G5 Dual Processor)
http://www.thehewitts.plus.com - now online

Bella Jones

unread,

Mar 5, 2004, 4:53:50 AM3/5/04

to

Andy Hewitt <hairy...@spamcop.net> wrote:

> Stuart Bell <spamfri...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
> > PeterD <pd....@dsl.pipex.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > > Time to move
> > > cc again I think, then come back as a newbie in a few months after the
> > > 0% runs out on the new card.
> >
> > A chap on Radio 5 alerted me to an even better CC trick;
> >

[tarting]

>
> This has been something I've heard for some time actually. There's
> nothing to stop you doing this all the time, and you get to borrow for
> free.

It is currently legal. I wonder how long before they find a way to stop
people doing it though, or at least make it harder.

> However, my wife worked in a bank, and you do need to be careful about
> all these applications hitting on your credit scoring. Too many could
> have a negative affect.

Definitely.

After the Barclaycard guy's comments recently about what bad value his
cards are, and all the other negative publicity in general, there will
be a period of yet more competing deals (ie nine months 'free' and more,
etc etc), but then what? Is it all going to explode somehow?

SM

unread,

Mar 5, 2004, 5:02:58 AM3/5/04

to

D.M. Procida <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:

> > After sticking with NatWest for many years, despite their refusal to
> > provide on-line banking for non-M$ software, I was just about to start
> > the effort to move to a bank which didn't have its head up Mr Gates'
> > rear ... and my choice was Co-op.
>
> Can I suggest you take a minute or so of your time to speak to customer
> services at the Bank, to explain why you won't be using their service?
> Unless people actually do this, they won't notice.

We were thinking of moving our business (and personal) accounts to the
Co-op. I've just spoken to Co-op's new business department on 0845
755800 who confirmed that Acumen "can't be used on a Mac" . Promised a
call back from someone more knowlegeable. Pointed out that it's not a
Mac thing, but compliance.

It's so hypocritical for a bank that's pushed its ethical stance to
insist you do business with Microsoft. Perhaps you could forward the
story to The Register

I'm so glad we haven't moved banks already - that would be a real
pisser. People in the various departments badly redirecting us to new
business kept apologising for delays as their system is really slow
today - ha, karma

Stuart
--
http://www.sundog.co.uk - cut that out to reply

SM

unread,

Mar 5, 2004, 5:24:57 AM3/5/04

to

Bella Jones <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> After the Barclaycard guy's comments recently about what bad value his
> cards are

Groan - he did only say you shouldn't use CCs for longer term borrowing
which is sensible advice.

Barclaycards can be good value since they don't charge interest from the
moment of purchase

Bella Jones

unread,

Mar 5, 2004, 5:32:03 AM3/5/04

to

SM <in...@that.sundog.co.uk> wrote:

> Bella Jones <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> > After the Barclaycard guy's comments recently about what bad value his
> > cards are
>
> Groan - he did only say you shouldn't use CCs for longer term borrowing
> which is sensible advice.

But the general essence (ie as re-rehashed in the media) was that, ISTR,
he would not recommend them to his own children. Unfortunately, a bit
like Gerald Ratner and the prawn sandwich, it is the most negative
aspect of the quote that you remember.

> Barclaycards can be good value since they don't charge interest from the
> moment of purchase

But the same applies to many others, surely?

Anyway - as we all know, a credit card can be a deadly weapon (against
oneself)...

D.M. Procida

unread,

Mar 5, 2004, 5:39:18 AM3/5/04

to

SM <in...@that.sundog.co.uk> wrote:

> > Can I suggest you take a minute or so of your time to speak to customer
> > services at the Bank, to explain why you won't be using their service?
> > Unless people actually do this, they won't notice.
>
> We were thinking of moving our business (and personal) accounts to the
> Co-op. I've just spoken to Co-op's new business department on 0845
> 755800 who confirmed that Acumen "can't be used on a Mac" . Promised a
> call back from someone more knowlegeable. Pointed out that it's not a
> Mac thing, but compliance.

This really needs to be hammered into them. They don't understand it.

> It's so hypocritical for a bank that's pushed its ethical stance to
> insist you do business with Microsoft. Perhaps you could forward the
> story to The Register

I have, but had no reply. Perhaps someone else would care to mention it
too?

> I'm so glad we haven't moved banks already - that would be a real
> pisser. People in the various departments badly redirecting us to new
> business kept apologising for delays as their system is really slow
> today - ha, karma

The only thing that can be done is keep up the pressure and make the
issue as visible as possible. I have emailed a number of Mac and Linux
websites with the details, but so far none have even replied (though
someone from MacUser said they would be asking the Co-op for comments).

Obviously the subset of people directly affected is small, but each
company that gets away with it puts another nail in the viability of
non-Windows platforms.

SM

unread,

Mar 5, 2004, 5:46:48 AM3/5/04

to

Bella Jones <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> > > After the Barclaycard guy's comments recently about what bad value his
> > > cards are
> >
> > Groan - he did only say you shouldn't use CCs for longer term borrowing
> > which is sensible advice.
>
> But the general essence (ie as re-rehashed in the media) was that, ISTR,
> he would not recommend them to his own children. Unfortunately, a bit
> like Gerald Ratner and the prawn sandwich, it is the most negative
> aspect of the quote that you remember.

That was the cause of the groan - he would advise his children to borrow
by a less expensive method than running up credit cards. Crap journalism
is crap.

It's not the same as Ratner - the Barclays bloke said borrowing at high
interest rates is expensive. He didn't say Barclaycards were rubbish.

> > Barclaycards can be good value since they don't charge interest from the
> > moment of purchase
>
> But the same applies to many others, surely?

Sure, but not to a lot of "cheaper" cards

Peter Ceresole

unread,

Mar 5, 2004, 5:58:09 AM3/5/04

to

In article <1ga66oz.gtvr1n16m37kN%in...@that.sundog.co.uk>,
in...@that.sundog.co.uk (SM) wrote:

>Bella Jones <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> After the Barclaycard guy's comments recently about what bad value his
>> cards are
>
>Groan - he did only say you shouldn't use CCs for longer term borrowing
>which is sensible advice.

Exactly- what he said was perfectly good advice.

But nobody these days seems to recognise good sense even if it comes along
and bites them on the bum.

--
Peter

PeterD

unread,

Mar 5, 2004, 6:05:22 AM3/5/04

to

Bella Jones <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> Stuart Bell <spamfri...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
> > In my case, Egg have given me a £10,000 limit and have a 5 months 0%
> > offer. The plan is simple; transfer £10,000 to bank account. Bung it in
> > high interest accounts - as much in ISAs as possible. The week before
> > the end of the 0% offer, pay it all back. Result: around £150 for less
> > than an hours' work on the www.
> >
> > MBNA, that most irresponsible of CC issuers, have given me a £17,600
> > credit limit. When their 0% offer comes. . . . . .
>
> It's called 'stoozing', or 'tarting'.
>
> I also got a big limit from Egg (not that big tho!). I am wondering if
> their game is to give people such big starter limits that when the 6
> months at 0% is up (and the person has presumably spent up to that
> limit), the person finds it impossible to transfer the whole balance to
> a new 0% card.

The other thing you have to watch out for is a "handling charge",
frequently about 2.5% of the balance transfer. Suddenly your ten grand
in an ISA for £150 interest costs you £250 and doesn't look such a good
deal afterall.

--
Pd

PeterD

unread,

Mar 5, 2004, 6:09:36 AM3/5/04

to

Peter Ceresole <pe...@cara.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> But nobody these days seems to recognise good sense even if it comes along
> and bites them on the bum.

Is *that* what that was? I thought I had worms.

--
Pd

Bella Jones

unread,

Mar 5, 2004, 6:25:35 AM3/5/04

to

Peter Ceresole <pe...@cara.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <1ga66oz.gtvr1n16m37kN%in...@that.sundog.co.uk>,
> in...@that.sundog.co.uk (SM) wrote:
>
> >Bella Jones <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >
> >> After the Barclaycard guy's comments recently about what bad value his
> >> cards are
> >
> >Groan - he did only say you shouldn't use CCs for longer term borrowing
> >which is sensible advice.
>
> Exactly- what he said was perfectly good advice.

Sure, and he must cover his @ss - but nowadays the word (and the concept
of) 'credit card' is synonymous with long-term borrowing, (despite the
cards' original purpose), hence all the debt advice all over the papers
right now.

> But nobody these days seems to recognise good sense even if it comes along
> and bites them on the bum.

Good sense and money only come together by great effort...

PeterD

unread,

Mar 5, 2004, 6:30:22 AM3/5/04

to

Robert Marshall <sp...@chezmarshall.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> Is there any web page database of large uk orientated firms that just
> don't work with anything other than IE?

Graham Lee started on at <http://users.ox.ac.uk/~wadh1342/dda.html>

--
Pd

Peter Ceresole

unread,

Mar 5, 2004, 6:30:33 AM3/5/04

to

In article <c29mp9$q5l$2...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>,

rp...@yahoo.co.uk.invalid (Richard P. Grant) wrote:

>> But nobody these days seems to recognise good sense even if it comes along
>> and bites them on the bum.
>

>You on about Kylie again?

Triple thread merge. All threads lead to Kylie's bum.

What do I score?

And don't say 'Kylie'. I couldn't take the accent. That's my story.

--
Peter

X Kyle M Thompson

unread,

Mar 5, 2004, 6:30:30 AM3/5/04

to

On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Richard P. Grant wrote:
> Peter Ceresole wrote:
> > But nobody these days seems to recognise good sense even if it comes along
> > and bites them on the bum.

> You on about Kylie again?

Hmm?

Oh, Kyl*i*e. Right. As you were.

kt.
--
I'll get you any deal that you like
Ten sweets for a mountain bike you like

Stuart Bell

unread,

Mar 5, 2004, 6:33:20 AM3/5/04

to

Andy Hewitt <hairy...@spamcop.net> wrote:

> However, my wife worked in a bank, and you do need to be careful about
> all these applications hitting on your credit scoring. Too many could
> have a negative affect.

But I'm not applying for anything - just using my CC spending limit. If
anyrhing it probably improves my scoring - people who borrow and pay
back OK get more points than someone with no history!

Stuart Bell

unread,

Mar 5, 2004, 6:33:20 AM3/5/04

to

Bella Jones <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> I also got a big limit from Egg (not that big tho!). I am wondering if
> their game is to give people such big starter limits that when the 6
> months at 0% is up (and the person has presumably spent up to that
> limit), the person finds it impossible to transfer the whole balance to
> a new 0% card.

Absolutely!

Stuart Bell

unread,

Mar 5, 2004, 6:33:21 AM3/5/04

to

PeterD <pd....@dsl.pipex.invalid> wrote:

> The other thing you have to watch out for is a "handling charge",
> frequently about 2.5% of the balance transfer. Suddenly your ten grand
> in an ISA for £150 interest costs you £250 and doesn't look such a good
> deal afterall.

Good point - will re-check what Egg do.

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Mar 5, 2004, 7:03:57 AM3/5/04

to

In article <m1oerc1...@chezmarshall.freeserve.co.uk>,

Robert Marshall <robert$spam0104$@chezmarshall.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> also appears to only work with IE, as does virgin wines

Virgin is definitely IE only. I've complained, and they have muttered
about fixing it.

ian

PeterD

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Mar 5, 2004, 7:36:17 AM3/5/04

to

Peter Ceresole <pe...@cara.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <1ga6a5n.1t36ot41g0im6cN%m...@privacy.net>,
> m...@privacy.net (Bella Jones) wrote:
>
> >Sure, and he must cover his @ss - but nowadays the word (and the concept
> >of) 'credit card' is synonymous with long-term borrowing, (despite the
> >cards' original purpose)
>
> Not in the thrifty middle classes- which is why of course the Bourgoisie
> rulez.
>
> In our family (extended and immediate) 'credit card borrowing' is an
> oxymoron. It's the poor that borrow at usurious rates- always have done.

How's this for usurious. I want to preface this with, no I'm not joking,
this is not a typo, I have the offer here in my hand.

Vanquis Bank have the grab-it-now once in a lifetime offer of an
Electron card, 54.9% APR on purchases and 58.5% APR on advances. Plus 2%
Cash Handling fee on advances of course. Huh?

--
Pd

Bagpuss

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Mar 5, 2004, 7:41:32 AM3/5/04

to

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 11:06:47 +0000 (UTC), Ian G Batten
<I.G.B...@batten.eu.org> wrote:

<snip>

>Then if you're prepared to buy a M$ computer to access this ethical
>nirvana, good luck to you. Co-Op are saying, it would appear, ``to bank
>with us, use Microsoft''. I don't believe M$ are that much of an
>ethical company with regard to arms companies, third world stuff, etc,
>etc.

Neither are all Linux vendors.

But its still stupid for Co-Op to limit the customer base due to
poorly designed/implemented interfaces.

Andy Hewitt

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Mar 5, 2004, 8:09:03 AM3/5/04

to

Bella Jones <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> > This has been something I've heard for some time actually. There's
> > nothing to stop you doing this all the time, and you get to borrow for
> > free.
>
> It is currently legal. I wonder how long before they find a way to stop
> people doing it though, or at least make it harder.

It's going to happen, if not it'll be taxed.

> > However, my wife worked in a bank, and you do need to be careful about
> > all these applications hitting on your credit scoring. Too many could
> > have a negative affect.
>
> Definitely.
>
> After the Barclaycard guy's comments recently about what bad value his
> cards are, and all the other negative publicity in general, there will
> be a period of yet more competing deals (ie nine months 'free' and more,
> etc etc), but then what? Is it all going to explode somehow?

unread,

Mar 5, 2004, 2:14:06 PM3/5/04

to

Ian G Batten <I.G.B...@batten.eu.org> wrote:

I've had a good nose around the saga site with both Mozilla and Opera. Both
seem to work fine - Haven't tried the Virgin one. What's the url?

--
Terry Blunt
My nightmare is the time when you walk into a room, reach towards
a quiescent computer and a deep, sonorous voice intones:
'You are about to make a mistake'

Robert Marshall

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Mar 5, 2004, 4:13:12 PM3/5/04

to

Thank you!

R
--
La grenouille songe..dans son château d'eau

Luke Bosman

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Mar 5, 2004, 5:08:55 PM3/5/04

to

Peter Ceresole <pe...@cara.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <1ga61nt.1onaxh61opya1bN%spamfri...@dsl.pipex.com>,
> spamfri...@dsl.pipex.com (Stuart Bell) wrote:
>
> >What's the accronym for "Falls on the floor in total disbelief that one
> >company knows that there's more than one platform and more than one OS
> >family" ?
>
> FOFITDTOCKTTMTOPAMTOOF.

I disagree.

FOFITDTOCKTTMTOPAMTOOSF since OS is, itself, an acronym. And before
anyone complains that either of these two are unpronounceable, and
therefore not acronyms, you really should spend more time learning
Slavonic languages.

Luke

Hugh Browton

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Mar 5, 2004, 6:36:51 PM3/5/04

to

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 1:27:58 +0000, D.M. Procida wrote
(in message
<1ga3o0d.142r0fq1vciyw1N%real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk>):

> D.M. Procida <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Today I got my password for the Co-operative Bank's "next-generation"
>> Internet banking service, known as "Acumen".
>>
>> It only supports Windows and Internet Explorer 6.
>
> Don't like this state of affairs? Visit
> <http://www.petitiononline.com/coopbank/petition.html>, and if you're a
> customer of the Co-operative Bank or smile.co.uk, please sign it.
>
> Daniele
>

Done (3 business accounts and 1 personal). I made the point in the comments
field about standards compliance being the important point.

--
regards
hugh
hugh at clarity point uk point co
(by the sea) (using Hogwasher)

Robert Marshall

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Mar 6, 2004, 2:50:01 AM3/6/04

to

On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Terry Blunt wrote:

> Ian G Batten <I.G.B...@batten.eu.org> wrote:
>
>> In article <m1oerc1...@chezmarshall.freeserve.co.uk>, Robert
>> Marshall
>> <robert$spam0104$@chezmarshall.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>> > also appears to only work with IE, as does virgin wines
>>
>> Virgin is definitely IE only. I've complained, and they have
>> muttered about fixing it.
>>
>> ian
>
>
> I've had a good nose around the saga site with both Mozilla and
> Opera. Both seem to work fine - Haven't tried the Virgin one. What's
> the url?
>

With saga

https://www.saga.co.uk/secure/registration/welcome.asp

Gives me (when I try to click continue)

Error: document.postcodediv has no properties
Source File: https://www.saga.co.uk/secure/registration/welcome.asp
Line: 116

in firefox and mozilla or lonq didn't work either

http://www.virginwines.com - if you attempt to buy something and then
try to login with an existing account it claims the password is wrong

Robert

D.M. Procida

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Mar 6, 2004, 6:41:44 AM3/6/04

to

Hugh Browton <useneth@**.not.uk> wrote:

> > Don't like this state of affairs? Visit
> > <http://www.petitiononline.com/coopbank/petition.html>, and if you're a
> > customer of the Co-operative Bank or smile.co.uk, please sign it.

> Done (3 business accounts and 1 personal). I made the point in the comments

> field about standards compliance being the important point.

Have you done it under a different name? For some reason it's not
showing up.

The other thing I notice is that a number of people have managed to
leave high-ASCII characters in some of the boxes - see nos 64, 62 and
40. I wonder why that has happened.

Daniele
--
Apple Juice Ltd
Chapter Arts Centre
Market Road www.apple-juice.co.uk
Cardiff CF5 1QE 029 2019 0140

Jason

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Mar 6, 2004, 7:43:39 AM3/6/04

to

On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 22:41:38 +0000, Robert Marshall wrote:

> And I've just found today that www.saga.co.uk on their sign-in page

> also appears to only work with IE, as does virgin wines

Holiday companies seem to be the worst offenders for IE only sites.
Airtours doesn't work at all with anything other than IE. The dropdown
menus are all empty.

Lunnpoly's just about works with Opera, but you have to set it identify
itself as IE. More annoying, I found that if I didn't do this, it claimed
it was offline and told me to ring up, which costs £10 per person more.

Kuoni have now updated their site and it doesn't seem to work with non-IE
browsers. And their other company, the Travel Collection's site looks like
a complete dog's breakfast unless you've got exactly the same fonts as
they've obviously used.

I've complained to Kuoni and Airtours. They didn't even bother to reply. I
booked with Virgin. Theirs worked fine with Mozilla.

Jason

--
See http://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ for UK diving reports including
trips to Plymouth, Weymouth, Falmouth, Exmouth and Scapa Flow

Terry Blunt

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Mar 6, 2004, 7:55:08 AM3/6/04

to

Robert Marshall <sp...@chezmarshall.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Terry Blunt wrote:
>
> > Ian G Batten <I.G.B...@batten.eu.org> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <m1oerc1...@chezmarshall.freeserve.co.uk>, Robert
> > > Marshall <robert$spam0104$@chezmarshall.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > also appears to only work with IE, as does virgin wines
> >>
> > > Virgin is definitely IE only. I've complained, and they have muttered
> > > about fixing it.
> >>
> > > ian
> >
> >
> > I've had a good nose around the saga site with both Mozilla and Opera.
> > Both seem to work fine - Haven't tried the Virgin one. What's the url?
> >
>
> With saga
>
> https://www.saga.co.uk/secure/registration/welcome.asp
>
> Gives me (when I try to click continue)
>
> Error: document.postcodediv has no properties Source File:
> https://www.saga.co.uk/secure/registration/welcome.asp Line: 116
>
> in firefox and mozilla or lonq didn't work either

Ah, I must admit I didn't go as far ar registering - I never do!

> http://www.virginwines.com - if you attempt to buy something and then try
> to login with an existing account it claims the password is wrong
>
> Robert

Again, I didn't actually try to buy anything.

Toby A Inkster

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Mar 6, 2004, 7:47:28 AM3/6/04

to

Robert Marshall wrote:

> http://www.virginwines.com - if you attempt to buy something and then
> try to login with an existing account it claims the password is wrong

Odd. I've ordered from virginwines.com using Opera 7 on Linux, though that
was several months ago.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me - http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?page=132

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Mar 6, 2004, 10:55:26 AM3/6/04

to

D.M. Procida <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:

> Hugh Browton <useneth@**.not.uk> wrote:
>
> > > Don't like this state of affairs? Visit
> > > <http://www.petitiononline.com/coopbank/petition.html>, and if you're a
> > > customer of the Co-operative Bank or smile.co.uk, please sign it.
>
> > Done (3 business accounts and 1 personal). I made the point in the comments
> > field about standards compliance being the important point.
>
> Have you done it under a different name? For some reason it's not
> showing up.
>
> The other thing I notice is that a number of people have managed to
> leave high-ASCII characters in some of the boxes - see nos 64, 62 and
> 40. I wonder why that has happened.

I don't see any sign of high-ASCII on number 40 over here and I
certainly didn't enter any. (Using Safari.)

Luke

D.M. Procida

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Mar 6, 2004, 12:30:18 PM3/6/04

to

Luke Bosman
<southend.areontheirway...@spamgourmet.com> wrote:

> > The other thing I notice is that a number of people have managed to
> > leave high-ASCII characters in some of the boxes - see nos 64, 62 and
> > 40. I wonder why that has happened.
>
> I don't see any sign of high-ASCII on number 40 over here and I
> certainly didn't enter any. (Using Safari.)

What do you see in the field for number of business products, or for
comments? I see capital As with circumflex accents.

Peter Ceresole

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Mar 6, 2004, 2:24:14 PM3/6/04

to

In article
<1ga8lew.16virnp1mrax3rN%real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk>,
real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk (D.M. Procida) wrote:

>What do you see in the field for number of business products, or for
>comments? I see capital As with circumflex accents.

So do I- in both IE 5.0 in Classic and in Safari in 10.2.6.

--
Peter

leeg

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Mar 7, 2004, 10:24:54 AM3/7/04

to

Arthur Clune wrote:

> In uk.comp.os.linux Ian G Batten <I.G.B...@batten.eu.org> wrote:
>
> : How do you know? There's their marketing speil, and...what? Of course,
> : if you're right, then as a rough demographic guess a company that really
> : did have an ethical position would have a disproportionate number of
> : Macintosh and Linux users. Since they don't care about anyone other
> : than M$ sheep, they presumably don't believe their demographic reflects
> : their marketing.
>
> So why are Linux users more ethical?
>

Because they don't fund convicted lawbreakers?
--
Graham Lee
I am leeg, for we are many
"The internet is a gateway onto the net." - Bob Dole.
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~wadh1342

D.M. Procida

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Mar 7, 2004, 10:39:20 AM3/7/04

to

leeg <le...@teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk.valid> wrote:

> > So why are Linux users more ethical?
>
> Because they don't fund convicted lawbreakers?

Oh yeah, right, so how come SCO are having to sue them all for the code
they stole?

(Followups reset)

leeg

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Mar 7, 2004, 10:54:54 AM3/7/04

to

D.M. Procida wrote:

> leeg <le...@teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk.valid> wrote:
>
>> > So why are Linux users more ethical?
>>
>> Because they don't fund convicted lawbreakers?
>
> Oh yeah, right, so how come SCO are having to sue them all for the code
> they stole?
>

Because their product is so rubbish that they can't make money out of it, I
expect. It's the only UNIX I can think of that costs dollar for the
software itself. Linux is Free free, Solaris is free with a computer then
free for subsequent upgrades, as is IRIX, like most of the others.

Oh, yeah, you have to pay for minor version updates to *one* other UNIX...
:-)

--
Graham Lee
I am leeg, for we are many

Anarchy: well, it's better than no government at all, right?
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~wadh1342

Andrew Collier

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Mar 7, 2004, 11:49:48 AM3/7/04

to

In article
<1gaabct.9wlpy113hy3lfN%real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk>,
real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk (D.M. Procida) wrote:

> leeg <le...@teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk.valid> wrote:
>
> > > So why are Linux users more ethical?
> >
> > Because they don't fund convicted lawbreakers?
>
> Oh yeah, right, so how come SCO are having to sue them all for the code
> they stole?

You forgot to set the X-Troll header.

But just in case you comment was for real, it's far from clear that
anything of SCO's is in Linux at all; the situation of uncertainty isn't
helped by SCO's refusal to specify what was stolen. But despite nothing
being proven, they've already seen fit to sell people "licenses" to use
whatever component is in dispute, despite this being incompatible with
the terms under which most of the rest of Linux is distributed, for an
amount of money much greater than other vendors charge for the use of an
entire operating system.

It's as unreasonable as me saying to you, "You've stolen one of my CDs".
Then you might say "What CD?", to which I reply "I'm not telling you -
just give me every CD you've got, then I know I have mine back".

SCO have also been making press releases which indicate not even the
barest understanding of the nature of copyright law, and have changed
their minds several times over the nature of their allegation against
IBM. It's been clear for months that SCO's aim was to increase their own
share price through getting bought out. Unfortunately IBM didn't play
along, so the rest is smoke and mirrors trying to maintain for as long
as possible ther illusion of having a case.

Andrew

--
--- Andrew Collier ---- To reply by email, please use:
---- http://www.intensity.org.uk/ --- 'andrew {at} intensity.org.uk'
--
r<2+ T<4* cSEL dMS hEn/CB<BL A4 S+*<++ C$++L/mP W- a-- Vh+seT+ (Cantab) 1.1.4

baskitcaise

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Mar 7, 2004, 12:06:19 PM3/7/04

to

Andrew Collier wrote:
> SCO have also been making press releases which indicate not even the
> barest understanding of the nature of copyright law, and have changed
> their minds several times over the nature of their allegation against
> IBM. It's been clear for months that SCO's aim was to increase their own
> share price through getting bought out. Unfortunately IBM didn't play
> along, so the rest is smoke and mirrors trying to maintain for as long
> as possible ther illusion of having a case.
>
> Andrew
>

Only 40 or so days before they have to lay it all down on the table, should be
fun as they have to show before IBM :)

--
Mark
Iligitimi Non Carborundum!
Twixt hill and high water, N.Wales, UK