What can Apple learn from Windows 7?
zoara
curious... What stuff has Microsoft done with it that Apple could really
learn from for the next version of OSX?
At first I thought I liked the feature where hovering over an app in the
taskbar gave you previews of all the app's open windows, but now I'm not
so sure; rolling my mouse over the dock would give me a headache, and I
have loads of windows open in some apps, which would make the previews
very small.
The "throw a window on each side of the screen and have them take up
exactly half the space" feature seems useful, in that you can quickly
set up two windows to be visible rather than spending (slightly) more
time arranging them manually to avoid overlap. Is it useful in practice?
Everything else I have heard of that seems interesting appears to be a
second-rate copy of OSX features. That Exposé "show the desktop" feature
(Aero Peek?) seems very badly thought-out; why do they leave the
outlines of all the windows onscreen?
I'd be interested in hearing the "highlights" from a Mac user's
perspective...
-zoara-
--
email: nettid1 at fastmail dot fm
Ben Shimmin
[...]
> I'd be interested in hearing the "highlights" from a Mac user's
> perspective...
I've played around with it a fair bit now, so here are the highlights
from my perspective:
b.
--
<b...@bas.me.uk> <URL:http://bas.me.uk/>
`Property, marriage, the law; as the bed to the river, so rule
and convention to the instinct; and woe to him who tampers with
the banks while the flood is flowing.' -- Samuel Butler, _Erewhon_
Rob
> I know a few of you have had a reasonable play with Windows 7, and I'm
> curious... What stuff has Microsoft done with it that Apple could really
> learn from for the next version of OSX?
>
> At first I thought I liked the feature where hovering over an app in the
> taskbar gave you previews of all the app's open windows, but now I'm not
> so sure; rolling my mouse over the dock would give me a headache, and I
> have loads of windows open in some apps, which would make the previews
> very small.
>
> The "throw a window on each side of the screen and have them take up
> exactly half the space" feature seems useful, in that you can quickly
> set up two windows to be visible rather than spending (slightly) more
> time arranging them manually to avoid overlap. Is it useful in practice?
>
I saw this done on an ad and thought it'd be very useful on SL. Got it
to work to a point with TwoUp, but alas that baulks on certain apps.
Someone kindly replied to my original query about this, and advised
Applescript - but rather beyond my limited abilities.
Rob
SteveH
The only time I ever use that feature is when I'm working in Excel,
which has had it for years anyway.
Suppose it's a 'nice to have', but it's not essential.
--
SteveH
David Empson
> I know a few of you have had a reasonable play with Windows 7, and I'm
> curious... What stuff has Microsoft done with it that Apple could really
> learn from for the next version of OSX?
>
> At first I thought I liked the feature where hovering over an app in the
> taskbar gave you previews of all the app's open windows, but now I'm not
> so sure; rolling my mouse over the dock would give me a headache, and I
> have loads of windows open in some apps, which would make the previews
> very small.
Snow Leopard already does something similar: Dock Expos�. Click and hold
on an icon for the application you want, and it shows previes for all
that application's windows. You can mouse over them and hit space bar
with QuickLook if you want to see it in greater detail, and click on a
preview to open in that window.
It also supports drag and drop between applications via Dock Expos�.
--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz
Woody
> I know a few of you have had a reasonable play with Windows 7, and I'm
> curious... What stuff has Microsoft done with it that Apple could really
> learn from for the next version of OSX?
>
> At first I thought I liked the feature where hovering over an app in the
> taskbar gave you previews of all the app's open windows, but now I'm not
> so sure; rolling my mouse over the dock would give me a headache, and I
> have loads of windows open in some apps, which would make the previews
> very small.
The previews can be small, but they are live previews and they do work.
It doesn't really give you a headache
> The "throw a window on each side of the screen and have them take up
> exactly half the space" feature seems useful, in that you can quickly
> set up two windows to be visible rather than spending (slightly) more
> time arranging them manually to avoid overlap. Is it useful in practice?
I don't like the snap to full size option. i didn't know there was a
half size option.
>
> Everything else I have heard of that seems interesting appears to be a
> second-rate copy of OSX features. That Expos� "show the desktop" feature
> (Aero Peek?) seems very badly thought-out; why do they leave the
> outlines of all the windows onscreen?
>
> I'd be interested in hearing the "highlights" from a Mac user's
> perspective...
I have been using windows 7 for quite a while (I am one of the official
beta testers, rather than the random downloads) and it is definately one
of microsofts best to date. Some of the things they have done are great.
Some of the things they have done that echo what has happened in a way
on OSX are going to irritate windows users, like the search and the
abstraction away from the file system.
There are things that apple should copy which I like, such as the
overwrite dialogs when you copy something from one place to another and
get told it already exists there, giving you the option to overwrite,
cancel or copy with a different filename. I believe it was a vista
feature anyway, but all the vista features work better in 7. Apart from
search.
Ultimately there is nothing that makes me want to use it more than OSX,
but there are somethings that make using it better than the previous
windows.
--
Woody
Rob
Indeed - I often work with Word and a web page, or web editor and a text
doc, etc. It's not exactly taxing to manually resize.
Rob
J. J. Lodder
> I know a few of you have had a reasonable play with Windows 7, and I'm
> curious... What stuff has Microsoft done with it that Apple could really
> learn from for the next version of OSX?
>
> At first I thought I liked the feature where hovering over an app in the
> taskbar gave you previews of all the app's open windows, but now I'm not
> so sure; rolling my mouse over the dock would give me a headache, and I
> have loads of windows open in some apps, which would make the previews
> very small.
Built into Snow Leo.
Just move the mouse there,
click and hold,
Jan
Elliot Doper
> I'd be interested in hearing the "highlights" from a Mac user's
> perspective...
You have a droll sense of humour. Asking a Mac user such a question.
Everyone knows Windows 7 can give you a dose of the clap.
--
"I can see the real thing: you're a total fucking wanker, along with
Zoara, Jim, and a few others arseholes like you."
Rowland McDonnell - Meeting Friends - 12May08
Clive Sinclair
Apple learn from Microsoft? Very little. I know it's not constructive...
I chuckle everytime I watch my wife boot her 5 month old laptop into
Windows 7 takes forever.
My 2yr old Mackbook Pro loads 10.6.2 is ready to use in about 40sec from
power on.
--
Clive
We don't die, we just stop paying taxes.
Jon B
> zoara wrote:
> > I know a few of you have had a reasonable play with Windows 7, and I'm
> > curious... What stuff has Microsoft done with it that Apple could really
> > learn from for the next version of OSX?
> >
> > At first I thought I liked the feature where hovering over an app in the
> > taskbar gave you previews of all the app's open windows, but now I'm not
> > so sure; rolling my mouse over the dock would give me a headache, and I
> > have loads of windows open in some apps, which would make the previews
> > very small.
> >
> > The "throw a window on each side of the screen and have them take up
> > exactly half the space" feature seems useful, in that you can quickly
> > set up two windows to be visible rather than spending (slightly) more
> > time arranging them manually to avoid overlap. Is it useful in practice?
> >
> > Everything else I have heard of that seems interesting appears to be a
> > second-rate copy of OSX features. That Expos� "show the desktop" feature
> > (Aero Peek?) seems very badly thought-out; why do they leave the
> > outlines of all the windows onscreen?
> >
> > I'd be interested in hearing the "highlights" from a Mac user's
> > perspective...
> >
> > -zoara-
> >
> >
>
> Apple learn from Microsoft? Very little. I know it's not constructive...
>
> I chuckle everytime I watch my wife boot her 5 month old laptop into
> Windows 7 takes forever.
>
> My 2yr old Mackbook Pro loads 10.6.2 is ready to use in about 40sec from
> power on.
Power on? Always around 5seconds here from sleep
--
Jon B
Above email address IS valid.
<http://www.bramley-computers.co.uk/> Apple Laptop Repairs.
Steve Firth
> I know a few of you have had a reasonable play with Windows 7, and I'm
> curious... What stuff has Microsoft done with it that Apple could really
> learn from for the next version of OSX?
I thought the access controls would be useful, but any competent
teenager (i.e. one who can program a PVR[1]) could work around that in a
few seconds.
[1] All of them.
zoara
> SteveH wrote:
[snip: the "throw a window on each side of the screen and have them take
up exactly half the space" feature]
> > The only time I ever use that feature is when I'm working in Excel,
> > which has had it for years anyway.
> >
> > Suppose it's a 'nice to have', but it's not essential.
>
> Indeed - I often work with Word and a web page, or web editor and a
> text
> doc, etc. It's not exactly taxing to manually resize.
That kind of attitude is what gave us Windows in the first place,
though. It may not be taxing, but it's still fiddlier and slower than
throwing the two windows you want to compare onto the edges of the
screen. And - presumably - has the benefit that when you undock them
from the edges, they return to the same place they were originally.
There may not be a huge difference in time or effort, but there *is* a
difference, and making the little things easier is what separates a
decent OS from an excellent one. Done right, I think this feature is a
winner.
zoara
I was making a distinction between SL's implementation (which requires
the distinct click-and-hold interaction per application) and Windows 7's
implementation, which does not. At first blush it would seem the latter
is better, but I'm not sure.
zoara
I have a feeling that I might have suggested that. I could probably do
it, but it would probably be *less* reliable than TwoUp.
zoara
> zoara <me...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> > I know a few of you have had a reasonable play with Windows 7, and
> > I'm
> > curious... What stuff has Microsoft done with it that Apple could
> > really
> > learn from for the next version of OSX?
> >
> > At first I thought I liked the feature where hovering over an app in
> > the
> > taskbar gave you previews of all the app's open windows, but now I'm
> > not
> > so sure; rolling my mouse over the dock would give me a headache,
> > and I
> > have loads of windows open in some apps, which would make the
> > previews
> > very small.
>
> The previews can be small, but they are live previews and they do
> work.
Can you tell the difference between the previews when an app has (say)
20 or 30 windows open? Exposé allows them to be large enough to tell the
difference as it uses the whole screen, but Windows 7 (presumably) only
let's you have one row.
> It doesn't really give you a headache
So what happens if you quickly roll your mouse across four or five icons
on the task bar? Does it attempt to show previews for all the apps you
roll over (giving a flickering effect) or does it only show previews for
the first and last icon (ie it will only show previews when the mouse is
held over an icon for a short time)?
> > The "throw a window on each side of the screen and have them take up
> > exactly half the space" feature seems useful, in that you can
> > quickly
> > set up two windows to be visible rather than spending (slightly)
> > more
> > time arranging them manually to avoid overlap. Is it useful in
> > practice?
>
> I don't like the snap to full size option. i didn't know there was a
> half size option.
I don't like the fullscreen option either; you lose more than you gain.
But the halfscreen option might be useful.
> > Everything else I have heard of that seems interesting appears to be
> > a
> > second-rate copy of OSX features. That Exposé "show the desktop"
> > feature
> > (Aero Peek?) seems very badly thought-out; why do they leave the
> > outlines of all the windows onscreen?
> >
> > I'd be interested in hearing the "highlights" from a Mac user's
> > perspective...
>
> I have been using windows 7 for quite a while (I am one of the
> official
> beta testers, rather than the random downloads) and it is definately
> one
> of microsofts best to date. Some of the things they have done are
> great.
That's the impression I've been getting (and what prompted my question).
It's not OSX but could be a very decent alternative.
> Some of the things they have done that echo what has happened in a way
> on OSX are going to irritate windows users, like the search and the
> abstraction away from the file system.
Didn't they irritate Mac users when they were first introduced though?
> There are things that apple should copy which I like, such as the
> overwrite dialogs when you copy something from one place to another
> and
> get told it already exists there, giving you the option to overwrite,
> cancel or copy with a different filename.
Yeah, that's definitely a good one.
> I believe it was a vista
> feature anyway, but all the vista features work better in 7. Apart
> from
> search.
Search? What's the story there?
> Ultimately there is nothing that makes me want to use it more than
> OSX,
> but there are somethings that make using it better than the previous
> windows.
Other than the overwrite dialogs, you haven't mentioned any. Is that
because they are few and far between or some other reason?
I was hoping for this thread to provide a wealth of clever features that
I could spend time hoping that Apple would implement, but there doesn't
seem to be much...
zoara
> zoara <me...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> > I know a few of you have had a reasonable play with Windows 7, and
> > I'm
> > curious... What stuff has Microsoft done with it that Apple could
> > really
> > learn from for the next version of OSX?
> >
> > At first I thought I liked the feature where hovering over an app in
> > the
> > taskbar gave you previews of all the app's open windows, but now I'm
> > not
> > so sure; rolling my mouse over the dock would give me a headache,
> > and I
> > have loads of windows open in some apps, which would make the
> > previews
> > very small.
>
Uh huh - I use that all the time, and that's why I thought that the
alternative method that Windows uses might be better - you can quickly
skim through all your open windows by simply rolling the mouse over the
taskbar; no click-and-hold delays. But then I thought maybe this would
be headache inducing (do I want a flicker of previews every time my
mouse rolls over the dock?) and thought maybe Apple had the best
implementation all along.
Not something I can really know without using, of course, but I wondered
whether anyone else -who had used both - had any perspective on which is
better.
zoara
> zoara <me...@privacy.net>:
>
> [...]
>
> > I'd be interested in hearing the "highlights" from a Mac user's
> > perspective...
>
> I've played around with it a fair bit now, so here are the highlights
> from my perspective:
>
>
>
> b.
Heh. That good, huh?
Woody
> Woody <use...@alienrat.co.uk> wrote:
> > I believe it was a vista
> > feature anyway, but all the vista features work better in 7. Apart
> > from
> > search.
>
> Search? What's the story there?
Search is good for some things, such as finding word documents
containing phrases, but really not good at other thigns, such as
searching for one xml file in a group of 15,000, which unfortunately
happens to be what I do with it.
I suspect they will have the same issues as the issues people have here
with the spotlight searches.
> > Ultimately there is nothing that makes me want to use it more than
> > OSX,
> > but there are somethings that make using it better than the previous
> > windows.
>
> Other than the overwrite dialogs, you haven't mentioned any. Is that
> because they are few and far between or some other reason?
Mainly as I wasn't sat on the machine so I couldn't think of them
> I was hoping for this thread to provide a wealth of clever features that
> I could spend time hoping that Apple would implement, but there doesn't
> seem to be much...
Really tehre isn't much. Most of the new features are things that
already existed in OSX that have been implimented in a different way on
that.
The expose per application thing, I quite like on windows. I think that
the click and hold on the application on OSX is a bit to slow and
clumsy, and the windows instant flashing around is a bit too fast - the
ideal would be between the two, but windows I think is closer to my
ideal. Also that it shows you the windows in situ is good.
Windows security 'don't do anything in a dialog behind the current
window' I find very irritating, but not as irritiating as vistas
protection thing.
The spotlighty start application by name works now, in a way it didn't
well in vista.
Mainly there have just been some minor improvements that help the flow
of using it. It still has all the normal windows 'where do I find the
control for this', made worse by some seemingly random change in
location of preferences, but you can't have everything
They have taken a step back in some things. Unlike XP (and like vista),
now when you are shutting down it sticks a grey screen over your work
while it does it, and lists which applications haven't shut down yet
(why am I meant to care about this?), but it is handy in that you can
see your application under the grey asking to save a document, but the
only way you could do anything about it is to cancel shutdown, say ok to
that dialog and then shutdown again. Repeat for each.
In XP you could just shut down and answer dialogs as they happened
without it intefering.
--
Woody
James Dore
> Ben Shimmin <b...@llamaselector.com> wrote:
>> zoara <me...@privacy.net>:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> > I'd be interested in hearing the "highlights" from a Mac user's
>> > perspective...
>>
>> I've played around with it a fair bit now, so here are the highlights
>> from my perspective:
>>
>>
>>
>> b.
>
> Heh. That good, huh?
>
Not quite. But almost.
Cheers,
--
James Dore
New College IT Officer
james.dore@new / it-support@new
J. J. Lodder
Steve Firth
> There may not be a huge difference in time or effort, but there *is* a
> difference, and making the little things easier is what separates a
> decent OS from an excellent one. Done right, I think this feature is a
> winner.
I'd like to see how it works on multiple monitors.
Microsoft have a long history of getting multiple screen use badly
wrong.
Ben Shimmin
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:01:20 -0000, zoara <me...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> Ben Shimmin <b...@llamaselector.com> wrote:
>>> zoara <me...@privacy.net>:
>>> > perspective...
>>>
>>> I've played around with it a fair bit now, so here are the highlights
>>> from my perspective:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> b.
>>
>> Heh. That good, huh?
>
> Not quite. But almost.
I've yet to find anything I like about it, and I've found quite a
number of things that I don't.
The other people in my department also seem to hate it, and they're
not even Mac users (yet).
Ben Shimmin
> I was making a distinction between SL's implementation (which requires
> the distinct click-and-hold interaction per application) and Windows 7's
> implementation, which does not. At first blush it would seem the latter
> is better, but I'm not sure.
I find the Windows 7 preview thing bloody irritating.
zoara
> Clive Sinclair <cl...@cs.com> wrote:
> > Apple learn from Microsoft? Very little. I know it's not
> > constructive...
> >
> > I chuckle everytime I watch my wife boot her 5 month old laptop into
> >
> > Windows 7 takes forever.
> >
> > My 2yr old Mackbook Pro loads 10.6.2 is ready to use in about 40sec
> > from
> > power on.
>
> Power on? Always around 5seconds here from sleep
Quicker than that, in Snow Leopard, for me. But my work Windows box
wakes from sleep in about the same time (I bet the power consumption
figures differ by a lot, though).
Woody
I have it on muliple monitors but have yet to see the two window thing.
Maybe that is because I have multiple monitors?
--
Woody
Chris Ridd
> On 14 Nov 2009 18:12:41 GMT, zoara <me...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> I know a few of you have had a reasonable play with Windows 7, and I'm
>> curious... What stuff has Microsoft done with it that Apple could really
>> learn from for the next version of OSX?
>
> Apple could take a look at Windows Update. Software Update is
> comparatively ghastly at the moment.
>
> I'm not referring to the underlying process of applying updates, or
> which updates are made available. Rather, I mean the way this is
> managed through Software Update.
>
> For example, there's a list of ignored updates and a list of pending
> updates. But there's no way of viewing the list of ignored updates.
> So you have to reset the ignored updates to see what was missing
> and then (possibly) choose to ignore some of them again.
>
> Software Update is an example of a program that's been dumbed
> down so much that, in many cases, it's awkward to use.
Have you tried the softwareupdate command-line, er, command?
--
Chris
Ben Shimmin
> On 2009-11-16 16:03:20 +0000, R said:
[...]
>> Apple could take a look at Windows Update. Software Update is
>> comparatively ghastly at the moment.
>>
>> I'm not referring to the underlying process of applying updates, or
>> which updates are made available. Rather, I mean the way this is
>> managed through Software Update.
>>
>> For example, there's a list of ignored updates and a list of pending
>> updates. But there's no way of viewing the list of ignored updates.
>> So you have to reset the ignored updates to see what was missing
>> and then (possibly) choose to ignore some of them again.
>>
>> Software Update is an example of a program that's been dumbed
>> down so much that, in many cases, it's awkward to use.
>
> Have you tried the softwareupdate command-line, er, command?
Yeah, when the GUI has been dumbed down too much, just switch to
the CLI. Not really the Apple way, though!
Perhaps Apple could implement the Windows Update feature of popping
up a dialog box every five minutes asking you to update now or later.
I love that feature.
Jaimie Vandenbergh
<b...@llamaselector.com> wrote:
>Perhaps Apple could implement the Windows Update feature of popping
>up a dialog box every five minutes asking you to update now or later.
>I love that feature.
My favourite is the one where it automatically installs updates it
thinks are important, and then reboots your computer without saving
any of your work that you've left open.
Cheers - Jaimie
--
"I went to a planet where the dominant lifeform had no bilateral symmetry,
and all I got was this stupid F-Shirt." -- Eric Pivnik
zoara
> [...]
>
> > I was making a distinction between SL's implementation (which
> > requires
> > the distinct click-and-hold interaction per application) and Windows
> > 7's
> > implementation, which does not. At first blush it would seem the
> > latter
> > is better, but I'm not sure.
>
> I find the Windows 7 preview thing bloody irritating.
So the question is whether I'm more of a Ben or a Woody. I think I'd
find it irritating.
zoara
Why? I'm not being facetious, that's a genuine question; what about it
is not as good?
Ben Shimmin
> Ben Shimmin <b...@llamaselector.com> wrote:
>> [...]
>> > I was making a distinction between SL's implementation (which
>> > requires
>> > the distinct click-and-hold interaction per application) and Windows
>> > 7's
>> > implementation, which does not. At first blush it would seem the
>> > latter
>> > is better, but I'm not sure.
NewsTap's quoting really could do with work. Ah, happy memories of
OE-QuoteFix.
>> I find the Windows 7 preview thing bloody irritating.
>
> So the question is whether I'm more of a Ben or a Woody. I think I'd
> find it irritating.
Windows 7's `Show Desktop' thing is also amazingly ill-conceived.
Basically it's a small, blank rectangle at the very far right of the
Taskbar. Clearly this has been extremely popular with users, given
how most of the Google hits for `Windows 7 show desktop' are about
how to get the old `Show Desktop' button back into the Taskbar[1].
b.
[1] ...which process seems, well, `involved', to say the least:
<URL:http://windows7center.com/tutorials/how-to-really-pin-the-show-desktop-to-taskbar-in-windows-7/>
Woody
You can turn it off if you want - the advantage that windows does have
over OSX in many ways.
--
Woody
Peter Casserole
> Apple learn from Microsoft? Very little. I know it's not constructive...
>
> I chuckle everytime I watch my wife boot her 5 month old laptop into
> Windows 7 takes forever.
Well, your wife thinks you take forever too, but she's not chuckling.
>
> My 2yr old Mackbook Pro loads 10.6.2 is ready to use in about 40sec from
> power on.
So what's so great about that? I can get a hard on in 20 seconds.
Clive Sinclair
Never mentioned hard on it was POWER on. See, wanking does make you blind.
--
Clive
We don't die, we just stop paying taxes.
chris
> Perhaps Apple could implement the Windows Update feature of popping
> up a dialog box every five minutes asking you to update now or later.
> I love that feature.
Yeah, it's especially comical when it pops up during a visitor's
presentation.
Peter Casserole
No need to apologize. Believe me, your wife is more interested in the
former than the later.
zoara
> zoara <me...@privacy.net>:
> > Ben Shimmin <b...@llamaselector.com> wrote:
> >> [...]
> >> > I was making a distinction between SL's implementation (which
> >> > requires
> >> > the distinct click-and-hold interaction per application) and
> > > > Windows
> >> > 7's
> >> > implementation, which does not. At first blush it would seem the
> >> > latter
> >> > is better, but I'm not sure.
>
> NewsTap's quoting really could do with work. Ah, happy memories of
> OE-QuoteFix.
Are you talking about the single-word-to-a-line problem? I can't see
that in NewsTap as it uses format=flowed - it looks like this:
http://emberapp.com/zoara/images/untitled
> >> I find the Windows 7 preview thing bloody irritating.
> >
> > So the question is whether I'm more of a Ben or a Woody. I think I'd
> > find it irritating.
>
> Windows 7's `Show Desktop' thing is also amazingly ill-conceived.
> Basically it's a small, blank rectangle at the very far right of the
> Taskbar. Clearly this has been extremely popular with users, given
> how most of the Google hits for `Windows 7 show desktop' are about
> how to get the old `Show Desktop' button back into the Taskbar[1].
Hmmm. It's wrong that they've made it look like a piece of window
furniture but it *is* well-placed. It's out of the way but
infinitely-sized (throw the mouse in the corner to "peek", throw and
click to show the desktop).
They could have just added an icon to it and solved the issue. Perhaps
an icon you could turn off to save space?
Ben Shimmin
> Ben Shimmin <b...@llamaselector.com> wrote:
>> zoara <me...@privacy.net>:
>> > Ben Shimmin <b...@llamaselector.com> wrote:
>> >> [...]
>> >> > I was making a distinction between SL's implementation (which
>> >> > requires
>> >> > the distinct click-and-hold interaction per application) and
>> > > > Windows
>> >> > 7's
>> >> > implementation, which does not. At first blush it would seem the
>> >> > latter
>> >> > is better, but I'm not sure.
>>
>> NewsTap's quoting really could do with work. Ah, happy memories of
>> OE-QuoteFix.
>
> Are you talking about the single-word-to-a-line problem? I can't see
> that in NewsTap as it uses format=flowed - it looks like this:
> http://emberapp.com/zoara/images/untitled
It looks like this in slrn (and anything else that doesn't use
format=flowed):
<URL:http://rialto.bas.me.uk/~bas/things/newstap.png>
>> >> I find the Windows 7 preview thing bloody irritating.
>> >
>> > So the question is whether I'm more of a Ben or a Woody. I think I'd
>> > find it irritating.
>>
>> Windows 7's `Show Desktop' thing is also amazingly ill-conceived.
>> Basically it's a small, blank rectangle at the very far right of the
>> Taskbar. Clearly this has been extremely popular with users, given
>> how most of the Google hits for `Windows 7 show desktop' are about
>> how to get the old `Show Desktop' button back into the Taskbar[1].
>
> Hmmm. It's wrong that they've made it look like a piece of window
> furniture but it *is* well-placed. It's out of the way but
> infinitely-sized (throw the mouse in the corner to "peek", throw and
> click to show the desktop).
The Windows collective seem to think it should be on the left, near
the Start menu, where it always used to be. `What you're used to' isn't
a terribly logical argument, but it's one which the public is prone to
making.
b.
Woody
news:1j99y6k.ywj0391w3y4oN%%steve%@malloc.co.uk...
ok, now I am back on windows 7 I am glad to report you wont be disappointed!
You can make a window go full screen, by dragging it to the top of a screen,
or you can make it snap to the left half of the left screen or the right
half of the right screen by dragging it to the left or right edge of the
respective screen.
You cant get it to zoom to the right of the left screen or the left of the
right screen at all.
--
Woody
Jon B
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:48:52 +0000, Ben Shimmin
> <b...@llamaselector.com> wrote:
>
> >Perhaps Apple could implement the Windows Update feature of popping
> >up a dialog box every five minutes asking you to update now or later.
> >I love that feature.
>
> My favourite is the one where it automatically installs updates it
> thinks are important, and then reboots your computer without saving
> any of your work that you've left open.
>
Nor does it ask if the firmware update you've quietly left running on
your Nokia is OK to interupt either, and leaves you with a broken phone.
Work I can retype, luckily the phone was fixed with a new board under
warranty.
--
Jon B
Above email address IS valid.
<http://www.bramley-computers.co.uk/> Apple Laptop Repairs.
Jon B
I do have password enabled which seems to just slow them down a bit,
though it isn't as bad as it was under Tiger/Snow Leopard.
My works iMac also takes a while to come to life, but I think thats
Retrospect 8 more than anything.
T i m
wrote:
>Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:48:52 +0000, Ben Shimmin
>> <b...@llamaselector.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Perhaps Apple could implement the Windows Update feature of popping
>> >up a dialog box every five minutes asking you to update now or later.
>> >I love that feature.
>>
>> My favourite is the one where it automatically installs updates it
>> thinks are important, and then reboots your computer without saving
>> any of your work that you've left open.
>>
>Nor does it ask if the firmware update you've quietly left running on
>your Nokia is OK to interupt either, and leaves you with a broken phone.
>Work I can retype, luckily the phone was fixed with a new board under
>warranty.
Out of interest, why don't you set your Windows updates to work
similar to the Apple updates, informing you that they are available
but giving you the choice of when to install them?
T i m
Jon B
I do now that I'm aware of the auto reboots and the potential pitfalls.
But I'm not generally a Windows user so was caught out unawares of the
perils of having a machine left for 5 minutes beside you doing vital
work that it may then decide to do something else.
T i m
wrote:
>> Out of interest, why don't you set your Windows updates to work
>> similar to the Apple updates, informing you that they are available
>> but giving you the choice of when to install them?
>>
>
>I do now that I'm aware of the auto reboots and the potential pitfalls.
>But I'm not generally a Windows user so was caught out unawares of the
>perils of having a machine left for 5 minutes beside you doing vital
>work that it may then decide to do something else.
Ah, fairy muff.
I guess because I am a Windows user I know the 'wrinkles' so generally
set up all machines to behave as I feel is the most efficient / least
intrusive (auto updates etc).
Anyroadup, this isn't a Windows issue but user one as when you install
Windows it asks you if you want to use automatic updates or not. I
always say no (but may tweak the options later dependent on the role /
usage).
Cheers, T i m
Roger Merriman
> Rob <patchoul...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > SteveH wrote:
>
> [snip: the "throw a window on each side of the screen and have them take
> up exactly half the space" feature]
>
> > > The only time I ever use that feature is when I'm working in Excel,
> > > which has had it for years anyway.
> > >
> > > Suppose it's a 'nice to have', but it's not essential.
> >
> > Indeed - I often work with Word and a web page, or web editor and a
> > text
> > doc, etc. It's not exactly taxing to manually resize.
>
> That kind of attitude is what gave us Windows in the first place,
> though. It may not be taxing, but it's still fiddlier and slower than
> throwing the two windows you want to compare onto the edges of the
> screen. And - presumably - has the benefit that when you undock them
> from the edges, they return to the same place they were originally.
>
> There may not be a huge difference in time or effort, but there *is* a
> difference, and making the little things easier is what separates a
> decent OS from an excellent one. Done right, I think this feature is a
> winner.
>
> -zoara-
I think it could be useful but as i never need to compare I'd need to
switch it off any way to stop accidental comparisons.
roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com
zoara
A better question is why doesn't Microsoft do this.
-zoara- (unsure whether a question mark is required)
zoara
> Windows it asks you if you want to use automatic updates or not.
I am strongly reminded of Jim's boss here. I'm starting to understand
why you don't find Windows problematic.
T i m, I know you were recently asking about how one might go about
learning software development. Given your statement, I implore you,
please don't.
-zoara-
T i m
>T i m <ne...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
>> Anyroadup, this isn't a Windows issue but user one as when you install
>> Windows it asks you if you want to use automatic updates or not.
>
>I am strongly reminded of Jim's boss here. I'm starting to understand
>why you don't find Windows problematic.
Thank fuck.
>
>T i m, I know you were recently asking about how one might go about
>learning software development.
Incorrect.
> Given your statement, I implore you,
>please don't.
Thank you for your continuing interest in my life.
This is your last reply for 2009, have a good Xmas etc.
Cheers, T i m
T i m
>On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:57:53 +0000, T i m <ne...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
>
>>Anyroadup, this isn't a Windows issue but user one as when you install
>>Windows it asks you if you want to use automatic updates or not. I
>>always say no (but may tweak the options later dependent on the role /
>>usage).
>
>Soon after installing OS X the OS will start downloading updates
>by itself, and one is never asked if that's what's wanted. Often I
>have a copy of some of those updates and they don't need to be
>downloaded. Doing so is pointless and a waste of bandwidth.
Is there not an option during the install though (I don't know there
is).
Luckily bandwidth isn't the issue it once was (for most anyway), just
as well with the 3.5G GPS Map update I did the other day. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
R
> Is there not an option during the install though (I don't know there
> is).
No.
> Luckily bandwidth isn't the issue it once was (for most anyway),
Most service providers have a fair usage limit during peak
hours. These updates could push people over such a limit.
Several hundred MBs of updates would not be unusual.
T i m
>T i m <ne...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> Is there not an option during the install though (I don't know there
>> is).
>
>No.
Shame.
>
> > Luckily bandwidth isn't the issue it once was (for most anyway),
>
>Most service providers have a fair usage limit during peak
>hours.
True.
> These updates could push people over such a limit.
True.
>Several hundred MBs of updates would not be unusual.
Yup, I think the last time I did the Mac it was over 500M.
<Checks router stat logs in inbox>
Received 31212MB last month. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
chris
> Anyroadup, this isn't a Windows issue but user one as when you install
> Windows it asks you if you want to use automatic updates or not. I
> always say no (but may tweak the options later dependent on the role /
> usage).
Except, almost no-one installs Windows. The vast majority buy a PC with
Windows on it. So, they're unlikely to even see the option.
zoara
And, of course (though this evidently passed T i m by, judging by his
handbag response to me) giving the user the option to choose to opt out
of a crappy update system does not make the problem a user issue.
If your system has crap behaviour, allowing the user to turn off that
behaviour does not mean you can blame the user when the crap behaviour
happens. It's that kind of attitude that seems pervasive throughout MS
products (instead of making things work well, they just provide dozens
of options), and as T i m seems to think this is acceptable, it's no
wonder he has no problems with Windows - "See, all I have to do is learn
that when I unplug this when this is running, it erases_all_my_data, so
I just don't do that!"
Fixing the problem - in this case, either asking the user to confirm a
dialog before restarting, or at least doing a timed auto-confirming
dialog - is better than leaving it broken and blaming the user when
things go wrong. That attitude creates user-hostile software... like
Windows.
Having said that, it appears from what R says that the OSX updater is
not a huge amount better. Sure, it's not destructive like the Windows
updater, but at least giving the "don't do this" option allows a savvy
user to avoid the gaping hole in UX design that could end up with a
costly bill.
T i m
True.
But it's just a 'default setting', like the OSX firewall <shrug>.
I wasn't having a go at anyone for not knowing there was a choice and
from what I've been told so far, at least you do get a choice (when
installing), unlike with OSX?
Cheers, T i m
Jaimie Vandenbergh
wrote:
And in my case that's the way the work machine came set.
Cheers - Jaimie
--
None of this will matter in 20 billion years.
T i m
Something that I have been reminded about since.
The reason I needed reminding is because 1) I've never bought a
pre-built PC and 2) even if I had (or have had to deal with one for
somebody) I generally wipe the pre install and install it as it should
be and 3) I always set it as appropriate for the user (because I know
it can be a pita).
Cheers, T i m
zoara
I'm *glad* OSX doesn't offer the choice to automatically restart the
machine without giving me the chance to save my open documents.
Rowland McDonnell
[snip]
> I'm *glad* OSX doesn't offer the choice to automatically restart the
> machine without giving me the chance to save my open documents.
It does, if you know the magic key combo...
Rowland.
--
Remove the animal for email address: rowland....@dog.physics.org
Sorry - the spam got to me
http://www.mag-uk.org http://www.bmf.co.uk
UK biker? Join MAG and the BMF and stop the Eurocrats banning biking
Jon B
I don't think the timed auto confirm is really a good option either
though, unless it unsaved work stops it as the Apple system does.
Eventually doing a software update/reboot it will stop when a certain
piece of software shouts hang on I'm not done here yet, but the Windows
SU ignores all that and boots anyway.
T i m
wrote:
>I don't think the timed auto confirm is really a good option either
>though, unless it unsaved work stops it as the Apple system does.
>Eventually doing a software update/reboot it will stop when a certain
>piece of software shouts hang on I'm not done here yet, but the Windows
>SU ignores all that and boots anyway.
But isn't there a case for forcing a reboot as to continue without so
doing could cause issues?
I'm not supporting the blanket use of auto-reboot btw (I generally
turn it off) but at the same time I might not want an open
notepad.txt being used as a post-it preventing a reboot on a remote
box?
Cheers, T i m
Jon B
The current method obviously doesn't work as it can cause data loss &
hardware failure. It also decides to do it in the 5 mins you've gone to
put the kettle on. Not good combos.
In the office enviroment then you may be able to put in a blanket "if
you haven't saved any docs when you go home at 5, don't complain when
we've rebooted the systems at 6 following updates and you've lost it.
You'd then be able to expect to safely reboot systems without causing
any headaches. All you need to do is get the few that may be in at 6 one
night, or leaving something running overnight to prewarn you to this
fact before you run the updates remotely.
At the office I've got Apples Remote Desktop, this actually allows me to
run the updates with a choice of three outcomes, don't restart, forced
restart, or attempt to restart but let the users save docs first. This
will at least install the updates but when the users get back to the
office at 9am, the first thing its going to do is make them save the
notepad, then actually restart their machine to finish off the update.
T i m
wrote:
>> I'm not supporting the blanket use of auto-reboot btw (I generally
>> turn it off) but at the same time I might not want an open
>> notepad.txt being used as a post-it preventing a reboot on a remote
>> box?
>>
>
>The current method obviously doesn't work as it can cause data loss &
>hardware failure.
But in the many many times I've seen it in action it hasn't (I'm not
saying it can't). Bottom line. If you don't force this stuff on some
people they will never do it ... like backups. 'A backup' (however
crude) is better than no backup.
Don't forget I've been working in / on / with Windows for over 20
years, both in business and domestic environments and know exactly
what people won't do to help themselves.
> It also decides to do it in the 5 mins you've gone to
>put the kettle on.
It's synched up with DHL deliveries. ;-)
>
>In the office enviroment then you may be able to put in a blanket "if
>you haven't saved any docs when you go home at 5, don't complain when
>we've rebooted the systems at 6 following updates and you've lost it.
Yup.
>You'd then be able to expect to safely reboot systems without causing
>any headaches. All you need to do is get the few that may be in at 6 one
>night, or leaving something running overnight to prewarn you to this
>fact before you run the updates remotely.
In a business environment wouldn't all that sort of thing be managed
via IIS (or whatever) and the profiles / login scripts?
>
>At the office I've got Apples Remote Desktop, this actually allows me to
>run the updates with a choice of three outcomes, don't restart, forced
>restart, or attempt to restart but let the users save docs first.
'Allows me to run'. I have been to XP machines still on SP1. Not
because they have reason why not to apply the updates, just they
'never have'.
> This
>will at least install the updates but when the users get back to the
>office at 9am, the first thing its going to do is make them save the
>notepad, then actually restart their machine to finish off the update.
Yes, and how you can do it under Windows (or apply them when you shut
down etc).
OK, I know a few people who have fallen foul of the auto-restart
thing, I've never said it was always good (and that I typically turn
it off). However they only fall foul of it once and after that, set
the Auto update -> restart to something more friendly. <shrug>
FWIW, on laptops that could be used out on mobile BB I set AU to
notify but do nothing. On my desktop I do similar because then I can
choose when. On machines where I know they are unlikely to do an
update unless it was forced upon them I normally set to download but
only install on shutdown. If it's a business machine that is working I
might turn AU off completely.
Cheers, T i m
>
> The "throw a window on each side of the screen and have them take up
> exactly half the space" feature seems useful, in that you can quickly
> set up two windows to be visible rather than spending (slightly) more
> time arranging them manually to avoid overlap. Is it useful in
> practice?
Yes, I do quite like that feature. I do find it annoying when it happens
by accident, though - Apple could improve upon it by requiring a
keyboard modifier like holding Option or something. Same goes for the
"shake a window to hide everything else" idea.
For the most part otherwise, Windows 7 seems to have.. Ahem.. "learned"
from Apple ;)
I like the way 7 deals with widgets, the sort of desktop ones with a
pseudo sidebar. That would be nice in OSX but whilst continuing to offer
the nice quick access of "dashboard mode".
--
Correct the spelling of 'usenet' to send me email.
R
> The current method obviously doesn't work as it can cause data loss &
> hardware failure. It also decides to do it in the 5 mins you've gone to
> put the kettle on.
Sigh. These internet kettles are always phoning home.