So, this pay thingy........
Reader
A 15 year Ff gets his BIG pay rise and gets another £22 (ish) a week.
A 14 year PC, and he deserves it, gets over £28,000 PLUS his 15% rise they
have just negoiated. Isnt that somewhat over £30,000 a year?
Just thought I'd mention it.......
firemaster
and no right to belong to a union, a lousy shift system, no guaranteed
leave and a great deal of solo responsibility.
at least you have the FBU and can blame the oic most of the time!
i always wanted more as a fire-fighter, it's natural; but try to get
thirty k in the real world and you would find that a lot of people
would want a lot more from you.
Reader
"firemaster" <bro...@meech.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:qb4odus2ih8pus8vp...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 9 May 2002 22:43:40 +0000 (UTC), "Reader"
> <andy....@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> >A 4 yr Ff gets just under 21,500 or about £270 a week for his troubles.
> >
> >A 15 year Ff gets his BIG pay rise and gets another £22 (ish) a week.
> >
> >A 14 year PC, and he deserves it, gets over £28,000 PLUS his 15% rise
they
> >have just negoiated. Isnt that somewhat over £30,000 a year?
> >
> >Just thought I'd mention it.......
> >
>
> and no right to belong to a union,
The Federation..........?
>a lousy shift system,
Pretty lousey not being able to get home between shifts becaue you cant
afford within travwlling distance..
>no guaranteed leave
For which, if cancelled with less than 30 days notice they get overertime.
We would call it recall to duty. 4 hours min plus.
> and a great deal of solo responsibility.
Got that already. We all have.
> at least you have the FBU
We have the FBU and a damn fine job they do, mostly.
>and can blame the oic most of the time!
Only if you wont take reasponsibilty for your own actions.
>
> i always wanted more as a fire-fighter, it's natural; but try to get
> thirty k in the real world and you would find that a lot of people
> would want a lot more from you.
Hmmmmmmm. Have you tried the real world recently, Firemaster, Its changed
since 1972.
crackmaster
Firstly, it sounds as though the real world you are describing is
london, most people don't work in london.
Secondly, yes, it is a long time since I was on a station, although
I'm still in uniform, but just exactly how much paperwork do you, as
an individual firefighter, complete in an average shift?
Then look again at the PC. that was the point about individual
responsibility.
On Fri, 10 May 2002 18:55:20 +0000 (UTC), "Reader"
Reader
"crackmaster" <bro...@meech.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:379qduocs43dsgrlc...@4ax.com...
> I know that, and I'm not trying to make a big thing here, but.
> Firstly, it sounds as though the real world you are describing is
> london, most people don't work in london.
I wasnt actually but I know what you mean.....
> Secondly, yes, it is a long time since I was on a station, although
> I'm still in uniform, but just exactly how much paperwork do you, as
> an individual firefighter, complete in an average shift?
Fair bit but not as a Ff but again I know what you mean.
> Then look again at the PC. that was the point about individual
> responsibility.
Lone working as oppossed to team doesnt reduce the effect of decesion making
neccesairly but I see your point.
Dave Simpson
Why compare yourself to cops? The only thing firemen share with cops is having a
blue flashing light on their vehicles and a propensity to throw sickies.
Dave Simpson
>
>A 4 yr Ff gets just under 21,500 or about £270 a week for his troubles.
Good maths mate, are your other figures just as accurate? If you press buttons
on your calculator 21,500pa comes out at 413pw
>
>A 15 year Ff gets his BIG pay rise and gets another £22 (ish) a week.
>
>A 14 year PC, and he deserves it, gets over £28,000 PLUS his 15% rise they
>have just negoiated. Isnt that somewhat over £30,000 a year?
>
>Just thought I'd mention it.......
>
Why not join the cops then?
Reader
If you were to look at deductions you'd see the point. On your other point
point..... because I like what I do, just wish the wages recognised the work
load.
"Dave Simpson" <Dave_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:ac39j...@drn.newsguy.com...
Dave Simpson
>load.
I earn a little under the firefighters wage of £21,500 and hate every minute of
my job - why should I pay more in tax so you can earn more for a job you enjoy?
Dave
Jon Longfield
be?
Jesus is reputed to have said "The workman is worth his (or her) hire." You
know your worth and we know a firefighters worth.
Jon
PS If you start enjoying your job are you worried that they will cut your
pay? Or are you doing it "Really half-ass. That's the American way."
(Homer Simpson)?
"Dave Simpson" <Dave_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:ac4p3...@drn.newsguy.com...
Dave Simspon
take home pay go down so that yours goes up?
I assume you understand the point now.
In article <M1oF8.87197$oK4.121274@NewsReader>, "Jon says...
Jon Longfield
Jon
"Dave Simspon" <Dave_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:ac54n...@drn.newsguy.com...
pyro
what is the mortality rate for your job?
how often are you injured or risk injury as a "grass roots" part of your
job?
how much human suffering do you witness as a part of the job you hate so
much and how much counselling do you require to help you deal with the
sights you see?
back to you
"Dave Simspon" <Dave_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:ac54n...@drn.newsguy.com...
pyro
we are paid for out of the council tax (I think it averages out at just less
than 69p a week per household to provide a fire service)
the rise would still mean you would pay more for a lottery ticket every week
than for a 1st class fire service
"Dave Simspon" <Dave_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:ac54n...@drn.newsguy.com...
Dave Simpson
I'm already paying for a fire service, why should I pay more? It is ducking the
issue as to whether charges come from income tax or council charge - the bottom
line is you guys want more of my money.
I know several people in the brigade, all regard it as a cushy number. The
brigade doesn't have any recruitment problems, very few leave the brigade
(except for ones leaving on dodgy medical grounds). The tories tried to scrap
the pay formula, the FBU cried foul, suudenly we get a tax & spend labour
government and public sector workers think it's lottery day.
Most brigades complain of lack of equipment, surely any extra money is best on
new equipment.
In article <ac5h6u$2ib$1...@helle.btinternet.com>, "pyro" says...
Dave Simpson
I think a retained FF could answer this better than me!
In article <ac5f7s$nsf$1...@paris.btinternet.com>, "pyro" says...
Andy A
> Most brigades complain of lack of equipment, surely any extra money is
best on
> new equipment.
And prey tell WHO is going to operate this "equipment" you think the money
is best spent on?
Your vision is likely to end with lots of shiny new toys and no-one to play
with them (something which is already quite common in some areas)....who'll
cry "foul" when when the trucks are there and no one to operate them? Just
because people are not leaving in droves does not mean they won't!
I don't grudge them it - but dustmen get more money (£150 a week more in
hand) than I do after their first year - do they risk injury everyday? what
about violence? Stress?
I think not - get a life.
Dave
>
> I think a retained FF could answer this better than me!
Let's face it, I think my eight year old daughter could answer it better
than you!
Dave
Dave Simpson
>
>
>"Dave Simpson" <Dave_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
>news:ac5ls...@drn.newsguy.com...
>
>> Most brigades complain of lack of equipment, surely any extra money is
>best on
>> new equipment.
>
>
>And prey tell WHO is going to operate this "equipment" you think the money
>is best spent on?
>
>Your vision is likely to end with lots of shiny new toys and no-one to play
>with them (something which is already quite common in some areas)....who'll
>cry "foul" when when the trucks are there and no one to operate them? Just
>because people are not leaving in droves does not mean they won't!
Clearly a balance between manpower & equipment costs has to be struck. The
extreme scenario you've painted above is just as crazy as having a bunch of
highly paid firefighters with no equipment.
Back on planet Earth, except in certain areas, there's no shortage of FF's. In
my manor, pumps have been withdrawn due to funding shortages, yet FF's aren't
quitting their posts and each vacancy attracts dozens of qualified applicants -
It would be the economics of the madhouse to spend the extra funding on staff.
>
>I don't grudge them it - but dustmen get more money (£150 a week more in
>hand) than I do after their first year - do they risk injury everyday? what
>about violence? Stress?
>
Pay schemes are complex and such oddities do apppear - for example it is quite
common for new entrants to be paid more than old hands. Any group of workers can
point to another group and say they get this of that, yet they don't have to put
up with this or that.
Overall FF's aren't on a bad deal.
Jon Longfield
Your making me feel terrible now. To know that our pay rise is funded by
people!!! All my life I thought that the great pay fairy waved her magic
wand and the money just popped up. Well there is a salutary lesson. Guilt
is a heavy burden. The only thing that makes it better is knowing that you
will have to divvy up your share.
Jon
"Dave Simpson" <Dave_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:ac7m6...@drn.newsguy.com...
Dave Simpson
OK that's me sorted, what about the rest of the country? Are you going to take
the piss out of nurses, or pensioners - they pay your wages too. And don't
forget your kids will be paying your index linked pensions for years to come.
In article <1rLF8.69581$7R.77019@NewsReader>, "Jon says...
Dave Simpson
Wow Dave, that's so original! how do you think of them?
Andy A
I can see you have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about. Indeed,
it's PATENTLY OBVIOUS you don't!
Contrary to the ill researched statement you have made below, fire services
in UK are normally below the correct crewing levels. Some are so critically
low appliances are dropped on a regular basis (i.e. in station with no
crew) as a direct result of "vacancy managment" and underfunding.
It is YOU who who wants to come to the "planet earth" (YOUR words - not
mine) pal - you've clearly NO idea what the job is like and what it feels
like on a watch with 2 pumps and two specials being so understaffed people
cannot take the leave owed to them and appliances being placed off the run
because, even with those who should be on holiday on duty, you still cannot
crew them.
Waken up - you sound more like an out of touch Tory with every peroration
you bless us with.
You try attending a persons report maisonette fire - parents and kids,
supposed attendance 2 pumps and an aerial. No aerial coz no staff, other
pump out on another shout, next nearest attending 15 mins. 4 (2 BA, OIC and
ECO) men working 4 floors up - making rescues without the luxury of a jet
because the driver is still trying to send a make up, set into a hydrant (50
yards away) and lay the hose up the stairs. (This is not something I've
dreamed up for your benefit) - This is NORMAL in parts of the UK!
"Crazy to spend more on staffing" eh? Wonder what you'd think if it was YOUR
family and the pumps on your "Manor"?
Some people continue to risk their lives on a daily basis doing a job -
sorting people's problems - in dismal draconian conditions - if you hate
your job so much, come and join (if you can pass the enterance and basic
training) us - work your way through the ranks and see how you feel about
more staffing and proper renumeration for your colleagues after a few years.
Welcome to the real world.
Andy A
"Dave Simpson" <Dave_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:ac7m6...@drn.newsguy.com...
> In article <zzyF8.23050$Iv.28...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>, "Andy
says...
> Clearly a balance between manpower & equipment costs has to be struck. The
Dave Simpson
Andy,
That's quite a well thought post, yes the fire service does a good job with the
resources it's got. It does have several underlying problems such as -
(1) A pension funding issue- which will grow.
(2) Inflexible manning levels
(3) Stations are often in the wrong place, most are decades old
(4) High levels of absenteism
Contrary to your post I'm not anti-fireman or ignorant of the service, I know
several FF's and have relatives in the service (both full time and retained), I
know a about the job and understood all your jargon (eg an ECO is an entry
control officer). Many of the issues you outline below are caused by 1 to 4
above, not the pay levels of individual firefighters. I just believe any extra
money the brigade gets shouldn't be gobbled up by a big pay hike, for starters
this would excaberate some of the problems already mentioned. In the South East
something needs to be done - I'd agree on that one.
For years the FF's were happy with the pay formula, indeed FF's fought tooth &
nail when the Tories suggested scrapping it (PS I'm not a Tory). Now all of the
sudden they demand a big rise, I suspect timing is caused by labour government
opening up purse strings for NHS - other public sector workers now want a piece
of the action.
You have to be careful about pointing your fingers at other sectors and saying
we want that. What if you were offered thirty grand, but the pension scheme
became a money purchase instead of a final salary scheme?
Dave
In article <OYNF8.420$HX6....@news8-gui.server.ntli.net>, "Andy says...
Jon Longfield
the CBI can manage, there is no pension fund (every penny I have contributed
has been used so that your rates and taxes are kept artificially low) and
only using an un-realistic model are stations in the wrong place. In my
Brigade it is common for people to come on duty and travel 70 miles to cover
manning deficiencies or be expected to jump between machines depending on
the call.
So if you can't come up with anything more intelligent than this, just pay
my wages and butt-out.
Jon
"Dave Simpson" <Dave_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:ac8f6...@drn.newsguy.com...
Dave
>
> Wow Dave, that's so original! how do you think of them?
Sorry, I must have missed the earlier contributor that mentioned his eight
year old daughter.
A more constructive contribution to the thread:
A three bed semi in the area that I work as a wholetime firefighter costs a
minumum of £200,000. My gross pay is about £22,000. That will get me a
£77,000 mortgage. It is not possible to buy ANY sort of property in this
area for £77,000. With my wifes earnings we could get an £87,000 mortgage.
If I get a pay rise to £ 30,000 we could get a £115,000 mortgage. That will
get us a one bedroom flat. With three kids that's not a lot of use.
Fortunately I do work on my days off (in addition to the 42 hours a week I
work for the brigade). Despite this we are still struggling. This isn't a
complaint. I'm simply pointing out the facts. You can say what you like
about the pay claim etc. but from where I stand there is one fact that is
innecscapable. This Firefighter is not paid enough.
Dave
Dave
Dave Simpson
You expect anyone to believe that? Let's have some stats to prove it.
> there is no pension fund (every penny I have contributed
>has been used so that your rates and taxes are kept artificially low)
Quite right there's no pension fund, there is however a massive pensions
obligation, this is causing funding problems now - these problems will worsen.
>only using an un-realistic model are stations in the wrong place.
"A big increase in crew numbers, more appliances and the relocation of fire
stations are recommended to meet tough 999 call response targets" The was quoted
by a FF on this newsgroup!
>In my brigade it is common for people to come on duty and travel 70 miles to >
>cover manning deficiencies
Some of the FF's I go drinking with are familiar with this, they love it a bit
of overtime and casual milage - unexpected sickness is the usual cause, not
anything to do with national pay levels.
> just pay ,my wages and butt-out.
Don't have a choice mate, I go to jail if I don't pay my taxes ;-)
I expected to get more sense out of this newsgroup than a boozy discussion down
the pub.
Jon Longfield
> You expect anyone to believe that? Let's have some stats to prove it.
http://www.safety.dtlr.gov.uk/fire/fepd/pdf/trsillhr.pdf
Look at page 14 which shows sickness levels of wholetime firefighter to be
2nd out of the 13 figures compared.
>Quite right there's no pension fund, there is however a massive pensions
> obligation, this is causing funding problems now - these problems will
worsen.
The pension problem is not the fault of any serving firefighter. It is
caused by idiots like you demanding 2p of the rates.
>"A big increase in crew numbers, more appliances and the relocation of fire
> stations are recommended to meet tough 999 call response targets" The was
quoted
> by a FF on this newsgroup!
The current "pathfinder project" seeks to reduce to nil the number of fire
deaths. Only a half wit would think that every home should have a fire
engine (you appear to come from this school). The cost of that kind of
provision would see fire service costs rocket to near £3.8 Billion (see
Guardian 15th May 2002). That will cost you a few bob on your Council tax.
> Some of the FF's I go drinking with are familiar with this, they love it a
bit
> of overtime and casual milage - unexpected sickness is the usual cause,
not
> anything to do with national pay levels.
So why is this the firefighters fault. What we need is more firefighters
paid an economic rate and this problem would go away.
It all adds up to "firefighters do a great job but are under funded"
> I expected to get more sense out of this newsgroup than a boozy discussion
down
> the pub.
"Why compare yourself to cops? The only thing firemen share with cops is
having a
blue flashing light on their vehicles and a propensity to throw sickies."
It is fun to throw in one-liners but in fact you are much like many a senior
office and add little to the debate.
Jon
"Dave Simpson" <Dave_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:ac8rc...@drn.newsguy.com...
Andy A
Many of the issues you outline below are caused by 1 to
>>In the South East something needs to be done - I'd agree on that one.
Its not just in the south east! There are parts of Scotland FFs simply
cannot afford to buy houses because property prices are unrealistic as a
direct result of tourist homes etc. In the suburban areas of Glasgow and
Edinburgh I could not afford a house.
>I suspect timing is caused by labour government
> opening up purse strings for NHS - other public sector >workers now want a
piece
> of the action.
Yep - if it's good for one of government's employees to be given a decent
standard of living - it's good for us all.
>What if you were offered thirty grand, but the pension >scheme
> became a money purchase instead of a final salary >scheme?
Pension scheme is on it's knees as we speak - frankly I doubt if the £30K
proposal (remember this was started by management NOT FFs or the FBU!) will
leave us without changes to conditions, shift patterns and most of all the
pension.....it's been on the cards for a LONG time.
This was HMG gets to solve all it's little issues in one fell swoop.
Don't get me wrong - I see where you are coming from but the underfunded,
understaffed government services, are so because we - the taxpayers - have
been lulled into loving various parties in power by tax CUTS. If the tax
payers were to put up with 1p/£ rise (which they'd hardly miss) ALL these
problems could be resolved.
New stations
Better Equipment
More Staff
and......More Money for staff......Utopia!
I feel it is my right to have decent conditions, decent pay and safe, new
equipment to use in order to effect my duties. As a taxpayer I don't mind
paying for it.
I can think of several (locally) employment groups which are traditionally
"low paid" who in many cases are better paid than me:
Dairymen
Dustmen
Tractor Drivers
Process workers in chees factories
Fishermen
Bus Drivers
All of the above get more take home than me and all work (by Law) 8 hours
less a week than me.
See where I'm coming from?
AA
Andy A
"Jon Longfield" <j...@dead-dog.co.uk> wrote in message
news:gfQF8.139806$oK4.122356@NewsReader...
Dave Simpson
Very valid point, but it doesn't only apply to FF's - High housing costs,
particularly in South East, it applies to all workers in both public and private
sectors.
Problem is that if it was addressed simply by raising pay levels in South East
this would stoke up house prices yet further and lead us back to square one.
Also don't forget many workers who bought early on are sitting on fortunes,
their houses may well earn more than them!
One solution might be to increase pay for new starters, but then you end up with
new starters earning more than long servers, this is obviously bad for morale.
The only real solution to this issue is to increase the amount of building
space, I know it takes time and we're up against the British nimby culture - but
this is only way out.
It's a pity politicians haven't seen this coming and planned for it, you and
others in a similar position are now suffering , and hence everyone else suffers
through lack of service provision.
Any got any other ideas???
pyro
stamp for postage etc.) or indirectly (through taxation and other charges)
the fire service has year on year had to make a saving on expenditure of 2%
for X no of years now (not sure of the number but about 7or more)
in this time direct taxation for the working man has gone down but the cost
of living has gone up.so brigade budgets have effectively been cut
drastically over the years. I doubt if there is a brigade in the country who
have not lost pumps and stations over this time scale. workloads for the
remaining staff have increased and the number and diversity of calls
increased with them
the pay formula was directly linked to manual workers pay in traditional
industries
these industries either no longer exist or are in a terminal state of
decline so our formula is based on jobs which no longer exist and our pay
has not kept pace with the rest of the work force in the country.
the figure quoted of 30k was not just thought up by the union or by
management but arrived at by an independent group who evaluated the task
elements, time on duty, additional responsibilities taken on since 1977 and
taken at the current market rate for these tasks.
we pay 11.5 % of our GROSS wage towards a pension as we HAVE to retire at 55
by law, 60 if you make it to a senior rank.
etc. look up the rest of the facts and figures
if something is not done now parts of the country are not going to have a
fire service soon because no one will be able to afford to live in those
areas on a fire-fighters wage
the fire service will then be contracted out to the private sector and you
will still end up paying more for a probably substandard, semi trained fire
service provided by group 4 or the like and funded from local government and
insurance groups etc.these will be autonomous and you will have no say in
how they are run and staffed or attendance times.or if they come at all if
you live in a rural area,or a high risk, high crime area
just look at the way the post office is going and say that it cant happen
"Dave Simspon" <Dave_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:ac54n...@drn.newsguy.com...
pyro
"Dave Simpson" <Dave_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:ac8rc...@drn.newsguy.com...
Andy A
get in for years.
A
"pyro" <robp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:acbcl3$at4$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
Bryan Tyson
anti-firefighter but sound like a bitter twisted individual who never
could quite make the grade.
As I understand our pension scheme there is no fund. Serving
firefighters contributions pay the retired firefighters pensions. If
the scheme continues unchanged post pay rise then surely this will
temporarily alleviate some of the burden. The pensions of already
retired firefighters will remain unchanged but contributions will rise
with the pay deal. Obviously FF’s will soon be retiring on larger
pensions but during the interim there lies opportunity to amend pension
administration to prevent reaching this same position.
What inflexible staffing levels? Do you mean watch strengths or
appliance crew levels? Standard staffing on an appliance is 5. A one
pump station subsequently runs with a watch strength of 5 FF’s, 2
officers. Two pump stations have 10 FF’s and 3 officers.
Some stations do overlap somewhat which is a legacy of amalgamating
county brigades with neighbouring counties or cities. The cost of
relocation is predominantly prohibitive.
As for absenteeism I would refer to previous posts for specific
percentages. I am not sure of exact figures but it is not as bad as you
claim. Considering the nature of our occupation and the levels of
fitness required to perform adequately the levels are low.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Bryan Tyson
percentages. I am not sure of exact figures but it is not as bad as you
claim. Considering the nature of our occupation and the levels of
fitness required to perform adequately the levels are low.
I agree that there are generally thousands of applicants when brigades
recruit. But look at the pass rate of recruit’s courses. 25% of the
recruits on my course failed. It is a demanding physical job and as much
as some people wish to be a firefighter unfortunately they prove
unsuitable. As for retention I assume that a lot of firefighters like
myself joined relatively young. Like me they will have no other trade
and are committed to this profession for the duration of their working
life. The skills I have learnt do not translate well to any other trade
so although I am in a job I love and have no wish to leave there is
little else I could do without considerable retraining.
You obviously do not listen to Labour party doctrine. During the
discussions after the 1% hike on NI they adamantly stated that there
must be tangible results that where clear for all to see. The message
was clear “…nobody gets something for nothing…”. They most definitely
gave no indication of any purse string opening. The only ever national
fire service strike took place during a labour administration.
Dave Simspon
ph=public holiday
In article <20020520062201...@mb-mm.aol.com>, to1...@aol.com says...
>
>Sorry to butt in on this semi private argument.dave asked for some facts about
>sickness levels.Here on merseyside we had an agreement to return our stolen ph
>leave(2) you know what a ph is dave?if our sickness levels were reduced,this
>was through acas,we reduced our sickness levels to approx 4%(this includes
>injury on duty).and despite the fact that when asked for the next available
>leave date in january we were told the 16/12/01 (obviously this was last year)
>in other words forget your ph leave.I personally still have outstanding leave
>from 1999,and I have'nt been sick for 12 years.We are currently approaching 150
> below establishment.regards tony.
Dave Simpson
Posts are getting a bit more eloquent now. Agree service is underfunded, my
local brigades lost an HRT. Point of discussion is whether any extra money
should go on an large pay rise for staff or go on equipment etc.
FS wage is above average earnings, FF's I know have been basically happy with
gross wage (but grumble about net wage). I'd still contend thirty grand is over
the top for the what the job entails.
In article <acbcl3$at4$1...@knossos.btinternet.com>, "pyro" says...
Dave Simpson
says...
>
>Where do you get all your ideas from? You claim not to be
>anti-firefighter but sound like a bitter twisted individual who never
>could quite make the grade.
As I say I know a few FF's - sound enough fellas, however difficult to have a
sensible discussion on a Friday night piss up. They can afford planty of beer!
About not making the grade, I assume wannabe FF - came out of forces too late so
acedemic anyway.
>
>As I understand our pension scheme there is no fund. Serving
>firefighters contributions pay the retired firefighters pensions. If
>the scheme continues unchanged post pay rise then surely this will
>temporarily alleviate some of the burden. The pensions of already
>retired firefighters will remain unchanged but contributions will rise
>with the pay deal. Obviously FF’s will soon be retiring on larger
>pensions but during the interim there lies opportunity to amend pension
>administration to prevent reaching this same position.
Right, there is no fund. Current FF's pay PART of the contributions of present
retirees. The brigade (taxpayer) the rest. A pay hike would have immediate
consequences for pension fund, if there there's a pay hike someone retiring the
following year would get a larger terminal pay off and pension, without having
made any enhanced payments.
Only way to amend pension would be to cut payments,increase deductions or raise
retirement age - the maths dictate there will be a massive hole in pension fund,
even if status quo remains.
Ironically rest of local government scheme is fully funded.
.
>
>As for absenteeism I would refer to previous posts for specific
>percentages. I am not sure of exact figures but it is not as bad as you
>claim. Considering the nature of our occupation and the levels of
>fitness required to perform adequately the levels are low.
You know about lies, damn lies & statistics - for example if a persistant sick
note merchant is pensioned off the sick leave rate goes down. I rather suspect
you know of some piss takers in the brigade!
Bubba
>
> I'd still contend thirty grand is over the top for the what the job
entails.
>
Sounds to me Dave as though you are looking for someone to jump in here and
say "So a train driver is worth 30 grand, what does his job entail".
I agree with an earlier comment, stop trolling and go to a newsgroup that
involves your own workforce.
Bubba
Bryan Tyson
About time you stopped the soap box rhetoric and offered some plausible
arguments to back up your opposition to a just pay claim.
For one who claims to have friends in the Fire Service you take a very
myopic stance for all points raised here.
It appears you are adamant in opposing any changes that will enhance a
FF’s lifestyle for reasons such as discontent with your own employment.
Possibly fuelled by jealousy perhaps?
I tend to agree with previous posts. Try an alternative newsgroup.
Darren Robertson
> the top for the what the job entails.
Dave.
I'm not a firefighter either, but I also know and in fact related to a few.
I have my opinion of what the job entails. My curiosity is raised by your
statement above and have to ask just how much would you expect to be paid if
you were risking your life day in day out to save others?
And just for the record I don't think £30K is nearly enough. That still
won't get you a mortgage for a bedsit where I live.!
D.
--
__________
Darren Robertson
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 07/05/2002
Baz
level of the salary. Fire authorities usually procure equipment out of their
capital budget and pay salaries from the revenue budget. The two budgets are
entirely separate and only interact in exceptional circumstances, the idea
that a fair pay rise would impact on equipment is just plain wrong, the
reason some(not all) brigades have poor kit is because their employers have
made decisions not to invest in it( usually to maintain reserves) If
brigades want decent kit they have the means to acquire it within existing
capital budgets.
"Dave Simpson" <Dave_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:ace7a...@drn.newsguy.com...
Andy A
> In article :
>Only way to amend pension would be to cut >payments,increase deductions or
raise
>retirement age - the maths dictate there will be a massive >hole in pension
fund,
>even if status quo remains
Yes - agree there will be NO fund (not a hole)
The point you seem to be missing here my friend is that our pension fund is
not an invested one. Since day one of it's creation - despite having chance
and choice to invest (or simply SAVE) - the employers decided to SPEND our
money normaly on NON FB matters.
Now call me daft - but if someone spent YOUR company pension money and then
started to bleat there was noubt left int he kitty, what would you think? Do
you not think you'd still want your money?
It' not our (FFs) fault that the employers are having problems paying
pensions - it's THEIR mistake - let them sort it out....not penalise those
of us still paying into the "fund".
Now - how does someone's mistake re mis-handling pension money deny us the
right to a sensible increase in renumeration in line with other public
servants?
A
Andy A
other. In other words HMG fix Capital budget so FA can have as many shiny
new lorries as they want - BUT, if they're (for example) an almost wholly
retained brigade like mine - a week of bad grass fires causing massive
unexpected wage bill from retained completely depleting REVENUE budget -
which means:
Nice shiny trucks & no dosh to pay for the bods to sit in them - and WORSE
one toilet roll and one bar of soap to last all year.
A
"Baz" <b.do...@NOTTHIStiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3ceb8...@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com...
Dave Simpson
fact the whole UK national insurance scheme is unfunded)
I'm not saying FF's are responsible for the mess, I'm just pointing out the fact
there are competing areas for any extra funds service gets - don't blame the
messenger for the news!
This issue affects all public services at the moment, it just affects brigades
more so since (as far as I know) no other public servants are demading rises of
this magnitude.
If FF's get 50% raise, more staff, close pension blackhole and get more
equipment - brigades would be getting twice the money they now have. The NHS is
much higher on the politicial & public agenda, even they won't get funding like
this. The plain fact something has to give, I happen to think a more modest rise
(some in this thread think I'm on about a cut) plus increasing other areas is
the answer - doesn't seem too radical to me.
Just to put things in perspective, the proposed FBU rate would put an ordinary
FF on the same wage as an Army Captain - I just cannot see this.
Andy A
allowances and does not have to pay huge mortgages - my cousin can tell you
all about how much it's worth "in real terms" being an officer in the
military.
He's FAR better off than my Station Officer (comparable in Rank) "In real
terms".
"Dave Simpson" <Dave_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:acgj5...@drn.newsguy.com...
Jon Longfield
Your at it again! http://www.armyofficer.co.uk/benefits.asp says that a
Captain is paid from £28,813 rising to £34,270. He/She is given board
lodgings a company car (or tank), servants etc. etc.. It is also normal for
Army Officers to progress rapidly from 2nd Lieutenant through Captain to
Major by the age of 30. When put in that context I think that Firefighters
are worth £30,000. Say 3/4 of an Army Officers pay together with the
responsibility to feed cloth and house there family.
It is common for Chief Fire Officers to get paid £90,000+ for junket and
lunch I am sure that a Firefighter is worth 1/3 of that.
It is interesting to note that since being given evidence that Firefighters
are not a sickly bunch you have not apologised for the insinuation that we
are all malingering.
We live in a market economy and I just want the going rate for my job. You
don't appear to think that we should are worth that. Why do you not think
we should get the fair market rate for the job we do?
Jon
"Dave Simpson" <Dave_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:acgj5...@drn.newsguy.com...
Mike Barnard
wrote:
>Why compare yourself to cops? The only thing firemen share with cops is having a
>blue flashing light on their vehicles and a propensity to throw sickies.
One of the things that never seems to get mentioned is our unsociable
hours. I like our shift, but out of a 48 hour wholetime shift 30
hours of it are spent on nights, thats nearly 60% of our shifts on
unsociable hours. And we are working some part of a weekend, either
days or nights, 50% of the time.
We spend 2 out of every eight nights away from home and family. (Some
may say thats a bonus! Who am I to argue?) How much overtime would
other employees want to work a 15 hour night shift, let alone saturday
or sunday night? Double time? More? My wife (seperated) gets paid
more than me for a 12 hour night at a rest home. She just has to sit
and wait for a buzzer in case a bed is wet or something, not drive a
12 ton truck at eek mph, see peoples brains and guts, deal with their
distress, etc.
I feel we are very underpaid for this issue alone.
--
Mike Barnard
Ff
Red Watch
Horsham Fire Station
West Sussex
"Time is too precious a thing to waste".
(Remove my TROUSERS spamblock to reply by email)
Dave Simpson
You forgot to mention you're allowed to sleep on the job! Seriously I think FF
share's more in common with paramedics than cops. Paramedic pay is just under 20
grand, add 10-15% for added danger of FF - gets £22-£23 grand, nowhere near £30.
On this subject some FF's I know (but not on this NG) are claiming paramedics
have got 30% raise - not true, they've got a 30% raise in paramedic allowance,
that allowance is at most a grand. Therefore increase is around 5%.
In article <27vneu86i2oftp6og...@4ax.com>, Mike says...
Marvin Smith
MS
"Mike Barnard" <mike.t...@thunderin.co.uk> wrote in message
news:27vneu86i2oftp6og...@4ax.com...
pyro
the reason they are whole time stations is mainly because they get too many
calls at night to make it feasible for retained cover ( i.e it would cost
too much) and for the attendance times to be met
what exactly would you have Ffs do during the wee small hours without
disturbing the neighbours, bearing in mind most have the public next door to
the station.
this suits the employers who use this as an excuse to not to pay shift
allowance and not to pay anti social hours payment
we are paid not for what we do (sic) but what we could be called upon to
do.(apart from the stuff we actually do if you follow)
we are an emergency service and provide this service for the public, what
about when no one can afford to live in areas they are supposed to be
protecting (and im not just talking about the town or city , but the region
i.e the south) what about the service then.
this is not just a fire fighter problem but covers right across the board in
the public sector, nurses, cops, paramedics etc.
these are the core of an infrastructure which is rapidly finding its self
priced out of the market
if brigades started to provide housing in areas affected than that may help
but what about the future of these people when they retire and still cannot
afford any where to live?
all this baiting and we still no nothing of your profession
could it be professional wind up merchant?
you have your own views (fair enough) but do not force your petty prejudices
down our throats as we are the professionals here and know what we are
talking about
we are not playing here we are talking about our lives and the lives of our
loved ones, we need more money just to be able to livenews:acjaa...@drn.newsguy.com...
To1492
about them?or perhaps a bored malcolm saunders?if thats the case maybe we
should have a quiz about the colour of the sky in his world.regards tony.
Mike Barnard
wrote:
>You forgot to mention you're allowed to sleep on the job! Seriously I think FF
snip.
Seriously? You can dismiss our long unsociable hours as *not*
serious? A joke? Man, whoever you are you aren't interested in this
issue at all. You really are just a troll, and as such should be
ignored. Unless of course you are willing, as we are, to come out of
your shell and tell us a little, truth, about yourself. What do *you*
do for a living, if anything? How much do you make? What hours do
you work? What's the highest stress level you have to cope with?
I don't really expect a 'serious' reply, but here's hoping.
Cya.
Dave Simpson
>
>I don't really expect a 'serious' reply, but here's hoping.
Profession of Dave Simpson is not the issue, but Dave Simpson isn't writing most
of these posts, I’m an LF but using Daves account (not on internet myself). Only
a few weeks ago we thought FBU had smoked budgie seed when we heard of this 30
grand, now some are almost spending the extra money.
Purpose of posts was to see how FF community would react to some awkward
questions about FF pay, conditions etc – and awkward questions there will be.
The response has been abysmal, at first I was greeted with rudeness, only when
it became obvious poster knew his stuff did some sensible answers emerge. Even
then tough questions were left unanswered. Some of the replies belong on a
humour website, or they would if the issue wasn’t serious.
Do you guys really think we'll get a massive raise by trotting out the old hours
& danger routine? Do you think press & media will avoid even more awkward
questions than have appeared here?
Want some awkward points?
Sick Leave – Can argue about statistics till the cows come home, fact is most of
us are committed to the job, but there’s a piss taker on every watch – who’ll
get the most publicity?
Danger – Trucking is a more dangerous profession than firefighting. Firefighters
aren’t loaded by life insurance companies – many other occupations are.
Danger - “Working in the fire service is not a hazardous occupation” Andy
Gilchrist said this!
Violence at work – Yes FF’s are sometimes attacked at work, never off duty. Some
professions are now off the electoral register as they (or their families) been
attacked at home, off duty – FF’s aren’t in this category.
Conditions – Most of our troops in Afghanistan are getting less than an FF wage
(no wise cracks about free accommodation). If there’s a strike, guess who’ll
take over – the troops. And who gets paid more? Do you think the press will
mention this?
Recruitment & retention – Even in London, not a problem. This is a quote from
London Fire Authority
“Generally the Authority does not have recruitment and retention difficulties
within its operational workforce. For example a recent advertisement for
firefighter trainees (run once in a national newspaper) generated interest from
over 3000 people. An 18-year old trainee with no educational qualifications is
paid £20,799 on entry (inc. LWA); an extremely competitive salary compared with
other occupations with comparable entry requirements.”
FF wage is behind other sectors, read this, again from LFA
“Recruitment and retention issues do exist for particular groups of staff
however. Exceptions to the over-subscription for the firefighter role noted
above do exist in occupational groups where general skill shortages exist, e.g.
information technology, surveyors etc.. and these are addressed by market
supplements; where there are local labour market factors, e.g. proximity to
Heathrow Airport, or; where higher turnover is the industry norm, e.g.
catering.”
Pensions crisis - Not the fault of the firefighters
“The Authority is also faced with funding a significant rise in firefighters’
pension expenditure within the next five years, as the large number of
firefighters recruited in 1974 and 1978 when hours of work were reduced become
eligible for retirement”. { Remember who went on strike in 1977?}
Hours – Many of us are in the job because of the hours, and the general public
know this.
Hours – Firefighters went on strike for these shifts!
Personally I feel Andy Gilchrist is leading us to disaster, our profession
dragged through the mud and no pay rise – perhaps he should have become a
footballer for Luton Town. The plonker recently suggested asylum seekers should
be set free after Yarl’s Wood – who remembers “Red Robbo” & Arthur Scargill ?I
think we just got 21st century ones. Also getting a bit fed up replying to some
of the shallow posts I’ve seen – will only reply to anything significant.
TTFN
LF Anon
Snot Watch
Greater Manchester
Dave
writing most
> of these posts, I'm an LF but using Daves account (not on internet
Why are some of your posts signed 'Dave' then? Don't tell me, you're also a
Dave. There's a lot of us about!
Are you really an LF or maybe higher or maybe civilian connected to the Fire
Service?
Will you be changing your job again later in the thread if it suits?
>Also getting a bit fed up replying to some
>of the shallow posts I've seen - will only reply to anything significant.
I hope this isn't too shallow for your superior intelect. After all I'm
only a low paid Firefighter Guvnor. (tips hat).
Dave
pyro
nuf saidnews:acll0...@drn.newsguy.com...
>
> >
> >I don't really expect a 'serious' reply, but here's hoping.
> > Is this serious enough?
>
>
>
> Profession of Dave Simpson is not the issue, but Dave Simpson isn't
writing most
> of these posts, I'm an LF but using Daves account (not on internet
myself). Only
> a few weeks ago we thought FBU had smoked budgie seed when we heard of
this 30
> grand, now some are almost spending the extra money.
>
> Purpose of posts was to see how FF community would react to some awkward
be.
> The response has been abysmal, at first I was greeted with rudeness, only
when
> it became obvious poster knew his stuff did some sensible answers emerge.
Even
> then tough questions were left unanswered. Some of the replies belong on a
> humour website, or they would if the issue wasn't serious.
>
> Do you guys really think we'll get a massive raise by trotting out the old
hours
> & danger routine? Do you think press & media will avoid even more awkward
> questions than have appeared here?
>
>
> Want some awkward points?
>
>
most of
> us are committed to the job, but there's a piss taker on every watch -
who'll
> get the most publicity?
>
Firefighters
> aren't loaded by life insurance companies - many other occupations are.
>
> Danger - "Working in the fire service is not a hazardous occupation" Andy
> Gilchrist said this!
>
duty. Some
> professions are now off the electoral register as they (or their families)
been
>
> Conditions - Most of our troops in Afghanistan are getting less than an FF
wage
> (no wise cracks about free accommodation). If there's a strike, guess
who'll
will
> mention this?
>
> Recruitment & retention - Even in London, not a problem. This is a quote
public
> know this.
>
> Hours - Firefighters went on strike for these shifts!
>
>
> Personally I feel Andy Gilchrist is leading us to disaster, our profession
> footballer for Luton Town. The plonker recently suggested asylum seekers
should
Scargill ?I
> think we just got 21st century ones. Also getting a bit fed up replying to
some
Mike Barnard
wrote:
>Profession of Dave Simpson is not the issue, but Dave Simpson isn't writing most
Hi 'Dave'.
A natural assumption, as you were sneaking around 'undercover', was
that a non FF is taking the piss out of our job, our conditions, and
our thoughts on improving them. "So, what's *his* job?" was the
obvious question. "What gives *him* the right to criticise? What's
his knowledge base?". But now we know.
>of these posts, I’m an LF but using Daves account (not on internet myself). Only
What do we call you BTW? Are you another Dave or what?
>a few weeks ago we thought FBU had smoked budgie seed when we heard of this 30
>grand, now some are almost spending the extra money.
We all know that we won't get the full 30k although we can but hope.
The money isn't there and I don't think the will to strike is either.
But we all also know that we *are* underpaid. If you're in the job
then you know it too. If we sit back and do nothing it'll just stay
the same. If we do nothing our next pay rise will be about 2% again I
suppose. 2% of FA is... er, FA again.
>Purpose of posts was to see how FF community would react to some awkward
>questions about FF pay, conditions etc – and awkward questions there will be.
I understand your reasoning, but why hide it?
>The response has been abysmal, at first I was greeted with rudeness, only when
The start of this thread has been lost from my PC so I no longer have
the original post to refresh myself on your words, but comments from
you such as...
"hate every minute of my job - why should I pay more in tax so you can
earn more for a job you enjoy?"
"and a propensity to throw sickies."
...were phrased to annoy rather than question. If not deliberately,
that was the practical result. And in my opinion the replies were not
rude, just annoyed at someone taking the piss out of us.
>it became obvious poster knew his stuff
When did that happen? I must have blinked.
> did some sensible answers emerge. Even
>then tough questions were left unanswered. Some of the replies belong on a
>humour website, or they would if the issue wasn’t serious.
Natural progression. Only when *you* showed a trace of seriousness
did we. Not surprising.
>Do you guys really think we'll get a massive raise by trotting out the old hours
>& danger routine?
It may be 'old' but no less valid. The hours are far less than the
rediculous hours worked before the '70s strike (I wasn't in the job
then but I believe it was 70 to 80 hour weeks, now it's 42,) and I
think most FF's like them; mainly because it gives time to do fiddle
work (hmm, totaling 70 to 80 hour weeks again); because the pay is now
so crap. I see a circle here. I don't want to change the hours or
shift, and following another thread we can see no practical way *to*
change them. I personally just want people to appreciate, fiscally,
how much time we spend away from home when others expect to be tucked
up warm and snug, or down the pub... etc. Spouse/girlfriend/boyfriend
is at work while we're off duty (or working a second job), and we're
at work when she gets home. Grin, I wonder if this helps or hinders
the average FF's marriage? Anyway, you're in the job? I don't need
to explain to you but for any non FF's reading I'll try to get down to
the details.
> Do you think press & media will avoid even more awkward
>questions than have appeared here?
So let's use this forum to ask them, as you are doing, and find the
right answers. Be constructive, not destructive. I see a doughnut,
you seem to see the hole.
>Want some awkward points?
Yeah, lets. I don't have guaranteed answers, these are just my
opinions. Let's have others put their 2p in too.
>Sick Leave – Can argue about statistics till the cows come home, fact is most of
>us are committed to the job, but there’s a piss taker on every watch – who’ll
>get the most publicity?
Depends on who is doing the publicising. I hope some higher union
officials look in here occasionally (let's all give them a nudge shall
we?), because it's them who will need to get publicity out on our
behalf. Every job has the pisstaker. I'm sure we can all think of
someone, but so can every other job, from dustmen (sorry, persons), to
web designers to NHS managers to politicians. In that respect we're
no different to anyone else, we're human, but why should that be a
reason to be paid less? I read in here that the stats (our paymasters
love stats) say we're OK on sickness. Then lets use them.
>Danger – Trucking is a more dangerous profession than firefighting. Firefighters
>aren’t loaded by life insurance companies – many other occupations are.
On another thread wasn't someone blocked from some sort of insurance
because of his job? Have to have a look later.
Our job *is* inherently dangerous. A truckers isn't. No disrespect
to truckers but that is real life. A trucker that doesn't crash (the
biggest threat as I see it) is in more danger from heart attack due to
lack of exercise. Others rush out of a fire, we grope blindly in. We
keep others away from the potentially lethal spilled, gassing chemical
mix while we go in. The rubbish fire in a dustbin that has a
discarded aerosol can in it that explodes and takes out an eye. The
car crash where we have to not only cut out the victim being aware of
fuel, electrics, un activated airbags, our own
potentially_lethal_in_untrained_hands equipment, but dodge the traffic
traveling at eek mph a couple of feet away... it goes on.
However we all use modern equipment, training, knowledge and skills to
reduce that danger. That's why we are lower risks to the insurance
companies than we were, we look at safety for *everything*. I've
worked for outside, real world companies. Safety is for wimps, wooses
and those intent on stopping production! It's getting better
nowadays, with site safety officers and the likes, but most workers
just think of them with as much respect as traffic wardens. Do what
you have to in order stay legal while they are in sight, then back to
the quick, less safe method of working. We don't do that. Safety is
in the minds of every FF I know of. The job is dangerous, we just
control it better than most.
>Danger - “Working in the fire service is not a hazardous occupation” Andy
>Gilchrist said this!
I don't know when he 'said' this or where, it's you're quote, but this
can only be because of the above, not because flames have suddenly
become colder, chemicals safer, cars less crushed, our tools easier to
use, etc.
>Violence at work – Yes FF’s are sometimes attacked at work, never off duty. Some
>professions are now off the electoral register as they (or their families) been
>attacked at home, off duty – FF’s aren’t in this category.
Never heard anyone use this as a claim about our job. It's not
relevant in my part of the world, maybe in others. Where did you get
this claim from?
Let's hear from those who think it's a valid worry.
>Conditions – Most of our troops in Afghanistan are getting less than an FF wage
>(no wise cracks about free accommodation). If there’s a strike, guess who’ll
>take over – the troops. And who gets paid more? Do you think the press will
>mention this?
You choose the troops as a comparison. Well I choose train drivers as
mine. 30k I'm led to understand. Whose is the more skilled job? But
when *they* go out on strike the army doesn't take over, the country
just grinds to a halt. The fiscal damage must be far greater, so they
agree to pay them more. I feel that for our skills we deserve at
least the same, we just haven't got the 'stopping' power.
I was in the Army myself in the '70's, 2nd Royal Tank Regiment
including two tours of N.I. so I feel I can validly talk here. (Even
the troops have deductions for food and lodgings BTW!) The military
has always been lowly paid, although I don't know what a private takes
home today after 4 years service to compare it. They too risk their
lives for the general good, but are considered as disposable cannon
fodder by the government. Do we want to let ourselves be treated the
same? And they get paid for extra qualifications unlike us.
As for a strike, what troops? I don't have the numbers, but they're
all off doing things in foreign climes, mostly. I don't believe the
government can find enough troops to cover the UK if we have to go
out. I know I don't want to, but I feel I would support it.
>Recruitment & retention – Even in London, not a problem. This is a quote from
>London Fire Authority
>“Generally the Authority does not have recruitment and retention difficulties
>within its operational workforce. For example a recent advertisement for
>firefighter trainees (run once in a national newspaper) generated interest from
>over 3000 people. An 18-year old trainee with no educational qualifications is
>paid £20,799 on entry (inc. LWA); an extremely competitive salary compared with
>other occupations with comparable entry requirements.”
Again, not a point that has been used by anyone I know of regarding
the pay claim. It may be an issue, but it's separate from the pay.
The volunteers to join as recruits are available. Any recruitment
drive down here is swamped with volunteers, but most brigades seem to
be running short still. That may be because the CFO's seem to be
trying to save money by not filling all posts. I'm using the words
*seem* here a lot because I don't have the stats and absolute
knowledge. Hopefully the union do. Someone who knows will be along
shortly?
In my brigade, a comparatively small wholetime one with a minimum of
53 (IIRC) FF's needed to cover the w/t stations and keep all our
trucks on the run in the county, it *seems* that we're about 14 short
from the establishment. This means that the leave system has had to
be tightened up considerably in order to enable the Brigade to meet
Home Office standards.
http://www.wsfb.co.uk/staffing.html
I have no idea about other brigades, let those with the correct info
post.
>FF wage is behind other sectors, read this, again from LFA
>“Recruitment and retention issues do exist for particular groups of staff
>however. Exceptions to the over-subscription for the firefighter role noted
>above do exist in occupational groups where general skill shortages exist, e.g.
>information technology, surveyors etc.. and these are addressed by market
>supplements; where there are local labour market factors, e.g. proximity to
>Heathrow Airport, or; where higher turnover is the industry norm, e.g.
>catering.”
Am I being extra thick or something? What has the quote to do with
comparing our wage with others? It tells me that they poach their
shortages in specialised departments from other areas that's all.
My quote (It's about time *I* got one in!) is from my bank manager,
said a couple of tears ago. "Is that all you take home? The average
painter and decorator takes more than that!" If anyone has experience
in personal incomes she has!
>Pensions crisis - Not the fault of the firefighters
>“The Authority is also faced with funding a significant rise in firefighters’
>pension expenditure within the next five years, as the large number of
>firefighters recruited in 1974 and 1978 when hours of work were reduced become
>eligible for retirement”. { Remember who went on strike in 1977?}
This is another silly statement. You are in effect saying "It's your
fault the pension scheme can't cope because you took action to reduce
the working hours back in the 70's and increased the staffing levels."
The 'pensions crisis' is *not* the fault of the FF. The current
scheme, where money we contribute is not invested but used to directly
pay out the retired members, was founded by an Act of Parliament in
1947. Therefore it can only be changed by another act.
http://www.fire.org.uk/fsact/fsacts26.htm
The "significant rise in firefighters’ pension expenditure" is due,
yes, to the increase in staffing levels after the '74 intake where I
believe the fourth shift was added. So what should the FF's of the
day done? Nothing? You'd be working a far longer week now had that
not happened. What's needed here is a new act of parliament allowing
the brigades to create a new system.
>Hours – Many of us are in the job because of the hours, and the general public
>know this.
Oh? I joined because of the desire to help people, to be a FF. I
didn't even know the shift system when I applied. Answer up all here,
who joined *because* of the shift? And if this was the only reason
for joining, then they shouldn't have gotten in IMHO.
>Hours – Firefighters went on strike for these shifts!
As I said above, I know of no-one who wants to reduce the hours or
change the shift. We (they... I wasn't in then remember) walked out
for a reduction from the then much longer shifts, got it, and now
we're happy with the hours.
The nature of the job is that we have to supply 24/7/365 cover.
Saturdays, sunday, weekends, christmas, birthdays... whatever. We
can't and won't try to change that. I personally just want it
recognised that the hours, etc that I discussed in a previous message
are highly unsociable and deserving of a better reward.
>Personally I feel Andy Gilchrist is leading us to disaster, our profession
From what I hear from my union reps he may be the person in the
spotlight but the attack on pay has been waiting in the wings for a
couple of years or more. The union and the management together agree
the current system is in a mess. When the pay formula was agreed we
were compared to a section of manual workers. Two main changes have
come in to ruin that. This country has a *vastly* reduced base of
manual workers to compare us to as it has become a service industry
led country and the nature of our job has changed from a 'manual' job
to a highly skilled profession. The range on knowledge we need to be
professionals nowadays would dazzle the FF of 20 years ago. How many
regulations do we now need to enable? Manual handling regs, confined
space regs, H&S regs... the list seems endless.
>dragged through the mud and no pay rise – perhaps he should have become a
You're doing the mud dragging at the moment.
>footballer for Luton Town.
Now whose comments "belong on a humour website"? :) Double
standards... tut tut.
>The plonker recently suggested asylum seekers should
>be set free after Yarl’s Wood – who remembers “Red Robbo” & Arthur Scargill ?I
What's that to do with our claim? If you have a comment about his
politics tell *him* and the union, not just us. As it happens, I
don't know of this comment, but if that's what he said I agree, it's
foolish.
>think we just got 21st century ones. Also getting a bit fed up replying to some
I must say that the union paper sometimes looks like a world war 2
propaganda poster! I highly disagree with this direction as it looks
very unprofessional.
>of the shallow posts I’ve seen – will only reply to anything significant.
Getting bored now? I hope my long winded replies are considered
significant enough.
I really do think we need to get our union officials thinking about
the publicity side of this claim now. A debate like this can be a
good forum to clear the air in advance and get the right ideas
organised in advance.
>Snot Watch
Yuk! :)
Mike Barnard
<Marvin....@btinternet.com> wrote:
>Nice touch Mike! Very well put!
Why, thank you! It only took 27,367 monkeys 2 weeks 3 days to come up
with that.
Dave Simpson
Mike
That wasn't a shallow post, so I'll reply.
Good effort there, a few holes though.
- Green Watch was introduced after the '77 strike, before that it was red, white
& blue, on a 48hr week. - Let's get our facts right.
- You say recruitment & retention is a side issue. I just don't see it that way,
reason train drivers get 30 grand(they get much more in fact) is because train
companies can't hire drivers. NHS & Teachers have to recruit overseas, hence
teachers, nurses, quacks and dare I say it, paramedics are getting rises.
Brigades have no trouble whatsoever recruiting - don't see how we get round this
issue and that's why Gilchrist is leading us up the garden path
- There are other issues I could take up too, especially about Mr Gilchrist.
Good post though, well done.
I think you'll agree thread needed a kick up the pants, the going will get much
tougher yet.
LF Anon
Using Simmo's Account
( Will get my own account soon)
PS If you were a squaddie in the seventies won't you be pensioned off soon any
way?
Dave Simpson
>& blue, on a 48hr week. - Let's get our facts right.
>
Hoisted by my own petard there! The strike was in 1977 but Green Watch wasn't
introduced until 1979.
Mike Barnard
wrote:
> Good effort there, a few holes though.
Don't expect perfection. But I'll try.
>- Green Watch was introduced after the '77 strike, before that it was red, white
>& blue, on a 48hr week. - Let's get our facts right.
OK, I know my dates and figures weren't exact. I could have gone off
and researched them but the exact year this or that happened doesn't
change the overall principal. They went on strike, reduced the hours,
increased the wages, introduced the pay formula, imporved the FF's
conditions immensly and added a new shift all in the late '70s. It
may have been a notional 48hr week but from what I've heard from some
old sweats way back when the actual work hours were much longer.
>- You say recruitment & retention is a side issue. I just don't see it that way,
>reason train drivers get 30 grand(they get much more in fact) is because train
>companies can't hire drivers. NHS & Teachers have to recruit overseas, hence
>teachers, nurses, quacks and dare I say it, paramedics are getting rises.
>Brigades have no trouble whatsoever recruiting - don't see how we get round this
>issue and that's why Gilchrist is leading us up the garden path
The basic issue you put forward is supply and demand. There's
potentially lots of us, so we can be had cheaply. I almost agree with
this put in this light, but I still say we can't just sit on our a***s
and get shafted year after year.
> - There are other issues I could take up too, especially about Mr Gilchrist.
I take it you don't like him! :) But likes or dislikes are not the
point here.
>Good post though, well done.
<Bows to invisible audience>
>I think you'll agree thread needed a kick up the pants, the going will get much
>tougher yet.
I wanna know where everyone else is. Come on, come out wherever you
are. Coooooeeeee.....
>PS If you were a squaddie in the seventies won't you be pensioned off soon any
>way?
Joined in nov '81. 9 and a bit years to go yet. Stuill enjoying the
job, although the tendency to invent long names for services and
departments gets on my wick. Who controls your leave? In London the
section was just called "Staff". Here it has to be the "Service
Intelligence Group".
Be safe.
Gadget
>>- Green Watch was introduced after the '77 strike, before that it was
>>red, white & blue, on a 48hr week.
Forgive my ignorance [I am but a whippersnapper], but haven't you lost
24 hours out of the week.
48 times by three equals 144,
a week is 168 hours.
I thought the dinosaurs went on about working a 56 hour week.
BTW our oldest dinosaur joined in 1965, still a FF, still the first with
his head up a chimney or at the head of a ladder but retiring this year.
--
Gadget
to email me direct use;
gadget((at))bluewatch((dot))fsnet((dot))co((dot))uk
sorry about all the spamblockage!
Dave Simpson
>>- You say recruitment & retention is a side issue. I just don't see it that way,
>>reason train drivers get 30 grand(they get much more in fact) is because train
>>companies can't hire drivers. NHS & Teachers have to recruit overseas, hence
>>teachers, nurses, quacks and dare I say it, paramedics are getting rises.
>>Brigades have no trouble whatsoever recruiting - don't see how we get round this
>>issue and that's why Gilchrist is leading us up the garden path
>
>The basic issue you put forward is supply and demand. There's
>potentially lots of us, so we can be had cheaply. I almost agree with
>this put in this light, but I still say we can't just sit on our a***s
>and get shafted year after year.
>
I think we've hit on key issue at least. Management can say "If you don't like
the job, bog off, we've can replace you ten times over" {I might have said that
with devils advocate head on!}. This issue must be addressed because being hard
headed it's a difficult one to reply to, because we can quote danger, hours etc.
but their argument would still stand. What I'm proposing is that via the union,
entry standards for brigades are raised, and raised big style.
On the one hand the FBU says a "Professional pay for a professional job", on the
other hand what are educational requirements to join? Don't know picture
nationally but I think it's zilch. FBU you policy is service is open to all,
don't want to go down the PC route (I've my own views, but that's another
thread), we should be saying "Anyone can join, but you need five "O" levels or 2
"A" levels, or whatever, this being on top of normal requirements."
This would add to professionalism of brigade and get round issue that brigades
get swamped by applicants at recruitment time. Do I detect a new thread here?
LF Anon
PS If potential recruit can say what's inside one of those damn acetylene
cylinders (except acetylene of course) - they're in!
pyro
Dave Simpson
>potentially lots of us, so we can be had cheaply. I almost agree with
>this put in this light, but I still say we can't just sit on our a***s
>and get shafted year after year.
Exactly, that's the big issue, I'd suggest entry requirements are significantly
raised, mainly in area of educational qualifications. FBU slogan is
"Professional pay for professional work", yet what are the educational
requirements to join? exactly zilch. I'd suggest a minimum of 5 O levels, with
accelerated graduate entry
This would significantly boost professional image of brigade and could down on
pool of suitable applicants.
another thread perhaps...
LF Anon
Via Simmo
Marvin Smith
to be, grass roots firefighting is a lot about having a grasp of common
sense and being practically minded. To go further up the ladder you could
argue you need to be clever. For me we have employed a lot of clever people
lately but without any common sense and practical skills. Examination
qualifications show that someone is good at wrote learning but practically
they may not be so good. Sorry don't have the answer but exams it aint! I
feel another thread coming along.
MS
"Dave Simpson" <Dave_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:acq6r...@drn.newsguy.com...
Andy A
>
> Danger - Trucking is a more dangerous profession than firefighting.
Firefighters
> aren't loaded by life insurance companies - many other occupations are.
>
> Danger - "Working in the fire service is not a hazardous occupation" Andy
> Gilchrist said this!
well - whoever you are - ask your FBU people to ask No1 region about MY
battle with my insurers about not being able to have life insurtance nor
critical injury insurance...reason quoted:
I'm a Firefighter and firefighters ARE a dangerous professio according to
Zurich and their underwriter's Allied Dunbar.
If you bothered to read the rest of the posts on this NG you'd have spotted
this one.
So - in your wisdom - tell me how I get life insurance and critical injury
insuranace when almost every insurance company has refused me on grounds I'm
a FF??
Try telling zurich FF is safer than trucking - I did and lost.
Andy A
Andy A
wee degree or five and we'll end up with a right load of plonkers (apologies
to anyone who is NOT a plonker but has loads of ed quals - here).
But we'd end up with more of the All Cheifs and No Injuns" problem many
areas are suffering as we speak....you know - rookie who can tell you the
exact content of the metal in the hammerhead but batters the nails with the
shank end?
No - selection process needs to look at the people and their abilities i.e.
commons sense, be awake and practical - i.e "do the job" with a certain
amount of training.
Anyway - this has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the need for more money for
the boys doing the job - sorry.
Oh yes......nearly forgot, and whilst there are thousands of potential
recruits it's a MINUTE number who actually get through the first couple of
hurdles....well all know that...so it's not just as simple to replace people
as you paint. You ever worked at a recruiting sesh??
"Dave Simpson" <Dave_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:acq6r...@drn.newsguy.com...
To1492
watch,the old blue being renamed green.why was that then? regards tony.
Jo
pay formula. We did not go on strike for shorter hours, at the union
meetings we had prior to going out there was never any mention of hours. The
government gave us them without asking. Our jaws dropped in amazement when
we got the formula and the reduction in hours. If anyone says different then
they're lying. Somewhere kicking about must be a 76/77 union
mandate/resolution booklet, the one we get every year before conference, if
you find one you won't see any mention of going on strike for shorter hours.
Jo