ot! - ms office upgrades??
Jill
from?
A friend is needing to upgrade from Office 97 to Office XP [and this is not
an opportunity for the Linux folks to have a go] but none of us have bought
software for quite a while so wondering where to go for a good but reliable
deal
cheers
--
regards
Jill Bowis
Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment, Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Holidays in Scotland and Wales
http://www.kintaline.co.uk
Oz
>Do any of you computer bods have a favourite place for getting upgrades
>from?
Best never to need them in the first place.
>A friend is needing to upgrade from Office 97 to Office XP [and this is not
>an opportunity for the Linux folks to have a go]
Oz: using word 2 and quattro pro 6.....
>but none of us have bought
>software for quite a while
well done....
>so wondering where to go for a good but reliable
>deal
buy a new computer with it already bundled ....
--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
BTOPENWORLD address about to cease. DEMON address no longer in use.
>>Use o...@farmeroz.port995.com<<
ozac...@despammed.com still functions.
Jill
> Jill <ne...@REMOVETHISkintaline.co.uk> writes
>
>> Do any of you computer bods have a favourite place for getting
>> upgrades from?
>
> Best never to need them in the first place.
>
>> A friend is needing to upgrade from Office 97 to Office XP [and this
>> is not an opportunity for the Linux folks to have a go]
>
> Oz: using word 2 and quattro pro 6.....
>
>> but none of us have bought
>> software for quite a while
>
> well done....
>
>> so wondering where to go for a good but reliable
>> deal
>
> buy a new computer with it already bundled ....
>
Ever helpful as usual :~P
Bootlaces
Jill mused:
> Do any of you computer bods have a favourite place for getting
> upgrades from?
> A friend is needing to upgrade from Office 97 to Office XP [and this
> is not an opportunity for the Linux folks to have a go] but none of
> us have bought software for quite a while so wondering where to go
> for a good but reliable deal
First of all, decide on which 'flavour' of Office.
If you are looking for kosher s/w, then I'm afraid that Office is quite
(!) expensive. I don't think there is an upgrade 'path' from 97 to XP -
upgrade licenses are normally only available from the previous version.
The cheapest option is to think very hard as to whether your friend is
entitled to use the Office XP Standard 'educational' license. With that
you get Word, Excel, Powerpoint and Office. Unfortunately there is no
Frontpage (well, maybe not so unfortuantely) or Access.
Then there's the 'standard' Standard edition.
To get Frontpage and Access, you need the Pro edition.
If you need Publisher as well, then it is Pro Special Edition or a
separate Publisher license.
David G. Bell
<umCkBDIB...@farmeroz.port995.com>
o...@farmeroz.port995.com "Oz" wrote:
> Jill <ne...@REMOVETHISkintaline.co.uk> writes
>
> >Do any of you computer bods have a favourite place for getting upgrades
> >from?
>
> Best never to need them in the first place.
>
> >A friend is needing to upgrade from Office 97 to Office XP [and this is not
> >an opportunity for the Linux folks to have a go]
>
> Oz: using word 2 and quattro pro 6.....
I picked up the Millenium edition of Lotus Smartsuite when it was being
sold off cheap. Trouble is that people expect everyone to be able to
rea the latest version of a MS Word file...
While not an upgrade, and maybe too close to Linux, at least have a look
at OpenOffice.org -- I have, a couple of times, got around problems with
file imports by running through a different program, and it might cover
file-import problems without affecting the rest of your friend's work.
> >but none of us have bought
> >software for quite a while
>
> well done....
>
> >so wondering where to go for a good but reliable
> >deal
>
> buy a new computer with it already bundled ....
Definitely worth thinking about, if the old machine doesn't have an ATX
motherboard.
--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
"History shows that the Singularity started when Sir Tim Berners-Lee
was bitten by a radioactive spider."
Derek Moody
<URL:mailto:ne...@REMOVETHISkintaline.co.uk> wrote:
> Do any of you computer bods have a favourite place for getting upgrades
> from?
> A friend is needing to upgrade from Office 97 to Office XP [and this is not
Why?
> an opportunity for the Linux folks to have a go] but none of us have bought
> software for quite a while so wondering where to go for a good but reliable
The single best version of windows I have ever seen which comes with word
pre-installed is Windows-RG:
http://www.deanliou.com/WinRG/
Cheerio,
--
Oz
>>> so wondering where to go for a good but reliable
>>> deal
>>
>> buy a new computer with it already bundled ....
>>
>
>Ever helpful as usual :~P
:)
[but not as daft as it sounds, they can be had for not much,
even less second hand...]
Oz
>
>I picked up the Millenium edition of Lotus Smartsuite when it was being
>sold off cheap.
I have a free copy that could go begging,,,,
>Trouble is that people expect everyone to be able to
>rea the latest version of a MS Word file...
quickview plus does for me.
Old Codger
news:CqDvSzIF...@farmeroz.port995.com
> David G. Bell <db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk> writes
>>
>> I picked up the Millenium edition of Lotus Smartsuite when it was
>> being sold off cheap.
>
> I have a free copy that could go begging,,,,
>
>> Trouble is that people expect everyone to be able to
>> rea the latest version of a MS Word file...
>
> quickview plus does for me.
A very useful little program although it can sod up other things sometimes.
I always hunt out the toolbar icon and turn it off after use.
--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field
What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make people
believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]
Old Codger
news:ant24170...@half-baked-idea.co.uk
>
> The single best version of windows I have ever seen which comes with
> word pre-installed is Windows-RG:
>
> http://www.deanliou.com/WinRG/
:-)
Jill
> Jill <ne...@REMOVETHISkintaline.co.uk> writes
>>>> so wondering where to go for a good but reliable
>>>> deal
>>>
>>> buy a new computer with it already bundled ....
>>>
>>
>> Ever helpful as usual :~P
>
> :)
>
> [but not as daft as it sounds, they can be had for not much,
> even less second hand...]
aye
except that said friend has bought new computor that had Works - yuck - as
the option as far as I recall
and had not realised that 97 and XP would argue SO much
Jill
> David G. Bell <db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk> writes
>>
>> I picked up the Millenium edition of Lotus Smartsuite when it was
>> being sold off cheap.
>
> I have a free copy that could go begging,,,,
I used lotus when I first started with putors - urm nearly 15 years ago. It
was what I could get my hands on then. I liked it alot - there was a nice
logic about how it worked and it was intuitive but could not get
""affordable""" updates. :~))
I have never moved out of the realms of self taught and home use. and MS I
have to say is what most places, operations, people, etc etc are using and
so if you are sharing stuff its how one has to go.
I would probably prefer Lotus for my own use though - have not had the
opportunity to explore the latest versions so could not comment
Derek Moody
<URL:mailto:ne...@REMOVETHISkintaline.co.uk> wrote:
> I have never moved out of the realms of self taught and home use. and MS I
> have to say is what most places, operations, people, etc etc are using and
> so if you are sharing stuff its how one has to go.
No. Even Office can handle standard formats. Ms don't make it easy mind,
they want you to think you have to upgrade every now and then...
Generally the nearest equivalents are free. Ms don't tell you that either.
Of course, once you've decided to drop Ms you will have saved enough money
that you no longer have to stick with the herd unless you choose to.
Derek Moody
<URL:mailto:ne...@REMOVETHISkintaline.co.uk> wrote:
> Oz wrote:
> > Jill <ne...@REMOVETHISkintaline.co.uk> writes
> >>>> so wondering where to go for a good but reliable
> >>>> deal
> >>>
> >>> buy a new computer with it already bundled ....
> >>>
> >>
> >> Ever helpful as usual :~P
> >
> > :)
> >
> > [but not as daft as it sounds, they can be had for not much,
> > even less second hand...]
>
> aye
> except that said friend has bought new computor that had Works - yuck - as
> the option as far as I recall
> and had not realised that 97 and XP would argue SO much
Use Works to translate between them.
Or if you can get a nice old version of Works just use that.
Howard Neil
> The single best version of windows I have ever seen which comes with word
> pre-installed is Windows-RG:
>
> http://www.deanliou.com/WinRG/
Brilliant. LOL
--
Howard Neil
Jane Gillett
Jill <ne...@REMOVETHISkintaline.co.uk> wrote:
> Oz wrote:
> > Jill <ne...@REMOVETHISkintaline.co.uk> writes
> >>>> so wondering where to go for a good but reliable
> >>>> deal
> >>>
> >>> buy a new computer with it already bundled ....
> >>>
> >>
> >> Ever helpful as usual :~P
> >
> > :)
> >
> > [but not as daft as it sounds, they can be had for not much,
> > even less second hand...]
> aye
> except that said friend has bought new computor that had Works - yuck - as
> the option as far as I recall
Works does enough for most people unless you want database; Works database
is not relational.
Jane
> and had not realised that 97 and XP would argue SO much
> --
> regards
> Jill Bowis
> Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
> Housing; Equipment, Books, Videos, Gifts
> Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
> Holidays in Scotland and Wales
> http://www.kintaline.co.uk
--
Jane G : j.gi...@stertfarm.co.uk : S Devon
Jane Gillett
Bootlaces <boot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In 10906811...@ersa.uk.clara.net
> Jill mused:
> > Do any of you computer bods have a favourite place for getting
> > upgrades from?
> > A friend is needing to upgrade from Office 97 to Office XP [and this
> > is not an opportunity for the Linux folks to have a go] but none of
> > us have bought software for quite a while so wondering where to go
> > for a good but reliable deal
<Snip>
> The cheapest option is to think very hard as to whether your friend is
> entitled to use the Office XP Standard 'educational' license. With that
> you get Word, Excel, Powerpoint and Office. Unfortunately there is no
> Frontpage (well, maybe not so unfortuantely) or Access.
You may be able to get the educational version(s) by joining an IT evening
class. Worht checking. When I taught such a class a couple of years ago my
students were eligible.
Jane
<snip>
David G. Bell
<66f5g09j09hq3poeh...@4ax.com>
zwarn...@yahoo.co.uk "Denis F" wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 18:00:04 +0100, in <2mfit6F...@uni-berlin.de>,
> "Bootlaces" <boot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >With that
> >you get Word, Excel, Powerpoint and Office. Unfortunately there is no
> >Frontpage (well, maybe not so unfortuantely) or Access.
>
> frontpage came with the ME educational version of Orifice -
>
> part of the GCSE computing course is to use FP to create a web page
> 8¬(
O, the humanity!
Jill
> In article <109070160...@ersa.uk.clara.net>,
>
> Works does enough for most people unless you want database; Works
> database is not relational.
Yes - but she wants to upgrade
There will be good reasons for it I am sure for her.
Personally I hate Works
Jill
>
>> The cheapest option is to think very hard as to whether your friend
>> is entitled to use the Office XP Standard 'educational' license.
>> With that you get Word, Excel, Powerpoint and Office. Unfortunately
>> there is no Frontpage (well, maybe not so unfortuantely) or Access.
>
> You may be able to get the educational version(s) by joining an IT
> evening class. Worht checking. When I taught such a class a couple of
> years ago my students were eligible.
Thank you Jane
That I had not thought of
--
regards
Jill Bowis
Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment, Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Holidays in Scotland and Wales
http://www.kintaline.co.uk
>
> Jane
>
> <snip>
Tim Jones
<de...@farm-direct.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <109070160...@ersa.uk.clara.net>, Jill
><URL:mailto:ne...@REMOVETHISkintaline.co.uk> wrote:
>> Oz wrote:
>> > Jill <ne...@REMOVETHISkintaline.co.uk> writes
>> >>>> so wondering where to go for a good but reliable
>> >>>> deal
>> >>>
>> >>> buy a new computer with it already bundled ....
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Ever helpful as usual :~P
>> >
>> > :)
>> >
>> > [but not as daft as it sounds, they can be had for not much,
>> > even less second hand...]
>>
>> aye
>> except that said friend has bought new computor that had Works - yuck - as
>> the option as far as I recall
>> and had not realised that 97 and XP would argue SO much
Office 97 with Win XP works fine here. It could be worth reinstalling
Office to see if it cures the problem.
Regards
Tim
Jill
thank you all
All suggestions and information has been forwarded
very grateful as usual
Oz
>Tim Jones wrote:
>
>thank you all
>All suggestions and information has been forwarded
>
>very grateful as usual
Noticed a pc, with many extras incl office for 399 in the paper today.
Derek Moody
> > except that said friend has bought new computor that had Works - yuck - as
> > the option as far as I recall
If (s)he has a Works licence then see if you can get a copy of an older
version of Works.
Ms have been actively downgrading Works from the point where it was about
their most productive software - if you were going to run Windows then Works
was all that (for nearly everyone) was needed to run a small business.
Trouble was it was getting too good and impinging on the sales of the more
expensive Office - which imo should be avoided by anyone not using it for a
large part of every day.
The breakpoint came somewhere around the version 3/4, get a copy of #3 if
you can. A simple disc-copy should be OK as the licence for the later
version should keep everyone on the right side of the law.
> Works does enough for most people unless you want database; Works database
> is not relational.
For many flat-file is OK.
Access is a perfectly reasonable relational database from a user pov but it
isn't suitable for developing apps. Any large rel task should be developed
in something that follows the standards and then, if required, exported to
access.
Otoh, a small business might do better with Works 3 plus (say) Datapower.
> > and had not realised that 97 and XP would argue SO much
So get rid of XP.
Ob farming: Strange sight on Sunday evening - hay being small-baled from one
end of a field and silage/haylege being wrapped at the other marking (I was
told) the edge of a storm. By the puddles outside this morning they were
just in time.
Derek Moody
<URL:mailto:ne...@REMOVETHISkintaline.co.uk> wrote:
> Jane Gillett wrote:
> > In article <109070160...@ersa.uk.clara.net>,
>
> >
> > Works does enough for most people unless you want database; Works
> > database is not relational.
>
> Yes - but she wants to upgrade
> There will be good reasons for it I am sure for her.
>
> Personally I hate Works
Personally I can just about bear the older versions of Works.
I hate all versions of Office.
Howard Neil
> Jill <ne...@REMOVETHISkintaline.co.uk> writes
>
>>Tim Jones wrote:
>>
>>thank you all
>>All suggestions and information has been forwarded
>>
>>very grateful as usual
>
>
> Noticed a pc, with many extras incl office for 399 in the paper today.
>
Just a thought, did it include such extras as monitor and keyboard? I
have known companies reduce the cost of their computers by leaving out
such frivolous items.
Of course, if you already have a monitor you are happy with, it may well
be a way of saving money. It is always possible to ask other companies
to quote you a price without such extras.
--
Howard Neil
Oz
>Oz wrote:
>
>> Jill <ne...@REMOVETHISkintaline.co.uk> writes
>>
>>>Tim Jones wrote:
>>>
>>>thank you all
>>>All suggestions and information has been forwarded
>>>
>>>very grateful as usual
>>
>>
>> Noticed a pc, with many extras incl office for 399 in the paper today.
>>
>
>Just a thought, did it include such extras as monitor and keyboard?
Yes. Possibly a printer/fax/copier/scanner, too.
>Of course, if you already have a monitor you are happy with, it may well be a
>way of saving money. It is always possible to ask other companies to quote you a
>price without such extras.
In theory true.
In practice for budget items, often not possible.
GeorgeDawson
news:109070188...@ersa.uk.clara.net...
> Oz wrote:
> > David G. Bell <db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk> writes
> >>
> >> I picked up the Millenium edition of Lotus Smartsuite when it was
> >> being sold off cheap.
> >
> > I have a free copy that could go begging,,,,
>
> I used lotus when I first started with putors - urm nearly 15 years
ago. It
> was what I could get my hands on then. I liked it alot - there was a
nice
> logic about how it worked and it was intuitive but could not get
> ""affordable""" updates. :~))
> I have never moved out of the realms of self taught and home use. and
MS I
> have to say is what most places, operations, people, etc etc are using
and
> so if you are sharing stuff its how one has to go.
> I would probably prefer Lotus for my own use though - have not had the
> opportunity to explore the latest versions so could not comment
>
>
spreadsheets and documents in the same file. Great program.
I would use it again if it were up to date. I dislike MSOfiice, but put
up with it:(
--
George Dawson
Goat farmer
Mary Fisher
"Tim Jones" <wilde...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:4104bc85....@news.btopenworld.com...
>
> Office 97 with Win XP works fine here.
It does here too.
> It could be worth reinstalling
> Office to see if it cures the problem.
I agree.
Mary
>
> Regards
>
> Tim
Mary Fisher
> > David G. Bell <db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk> writes
> >>
> >> I picked up the Millenium edition of Lotus Smartsuite when it was
> >> being sold off cheap.
> >
> > I have a free copy that could go begging,,,,
Not surprised :-)
>
> I used lotus when I first started with putors - urm nearly 15 years ago.
It
> was what I could get my hands on then. I liked it alot - there was a nice
> logic about how it worked and it was intuitive but could not get
> ""affordable""" updates. :~))
> I have never moved out of the realms of self taught and home use. and MS I
> have to say is what most places, operations, people, etc etc are using and
> so if you are sharing stuff its how one has to go.
> I would probably prefer Lotus for my own use though - have not had the
> opportunity to explore the latest versions so could not comment
I hated Lotus!
We've used all sorts of systems and programs in the last twenty years but
wouldn't leave MS for any of them now. I resisted Windows for a long time
but in the first few minutes of having it I was hooked. All its applications
are very user friendly, especially if self-taught - which I am (the finest
education in the world) as well as being integrated. That they're used by
most people isn't just a case of lack of choice - there IS choice - but
because they are easy and very wide ranging. I'm a Gates fan, without him
pcs wouldn't be where they are now or as widely available. Nothing is going
to suit everyone all the time but MS comes very close.
Mary
Jim Webster
"Mary Fisher" <mary....@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:410652c1$0$22316$4c56...@master.news.zetnet.net...
>
>
> We've used all sorts of systems and programs in the last twenty years but
> wouldn't leave MS for any of them now. I resisted Windows for a long time
> but in the first few minutes of having it I was hooked. All its
applications
> are very user friendly, especially if self-taught - which I am (the finest
> education in the world) as well as being integrated. That they're used by
> most people isn't just a case of lack of choice - there IS choice - but
> because they are easy and very wide ranging. I'm a Gates fan, without him
> pcs wouldn't be where they are now or as widely available. Nothing is
going
> to suit everyone all the time but MS comes very close.
>
> Mary
I think Mary has pointed out something I noticed. if you have no computer
training, Windows is actually pretty intuitive and comparatively easy to
learn
Jim Webster
Jane Gillett
Oz <o...@farmeroz.port995.com> wrote:
> Howard Neil <hn...@REMOVETOREPLY.co.uk> writes
> >Oz wrote:
> >
> >> Jill <ne...@REMOVETHISkintaline.co.uk> writes
> >>
> >>>Tim Jones wrote:
> >>>
> >>>thank you all
> >>>All suggestions and information has been forwarded
> >>>
> >>>very grateful as usual
> >>
> >>
> >> Noticed a pc, with many extras incl office for 399 in the paper today.
> >>
> >
> >Just a thought, did it include such extras as monitor and keyboard?
> Yes. Possibly a printer/fax/copier/scanner, too.
Make sure your new system has drivers for your printer etc., or that they
are available, especially if it is an old one.
Jane
Jane Gillett
Derek Moody <de...@farm-direct.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <10907469...@ersa.uk.clara.net>, Jill
> <URL:mailto:ne...@REMOVETHISkintaline.co.uk> wrote:
> > Jane Gillett wrote:
> > > In article <109070160...@ersa.uk.clara.net>,
> >
> > >
> > > Works does enough for most people unless you want database; Works
> > > database is not relational.
> >
> > Yes - but she wants to upgrade
> > There will be good reasons for it I am sure for her.
> >
> > Personally I hate Works
> Personally I can just about bear the older versions of Works.
> I hate all versions of Office.
Works for DOS had a relational database. We had a system running on it and
were totally ***ed when we had to move it to Windows.
Jane
Derek Moody
Intuitive? - as in 'If you want to stop first go to Start..'?
I spent over 15 years teaching all sorts of students to use computers of
many types, more and more of them Ms based towards the end. I have never
been tempted to use Ms software myself (except when preparing materials for
class use.) On the contrary, the more I was exposed to newer, 'better'
Windows systems the less I liked them.
If you are really clued up in DOS it is probably possible to make a
Windows system run reasonably well. I mean -really- clued up. I spent four
years teaching DOS to OND/HND students and I can't get Windows to work
properly.
Take a look at the shelves in your local bookshop. Resolve never to use an
operating system or application that is so bad that there's a market for
third-party instruction manuals.
Mary is correct in one thing: Without Gates PCs would't be where they are
now, he is the single greatest impediment to the advance of computing.
Jim Webster
"Derek Moody" <de...@farm-direct.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ant27174...@half-baked-idea.co.uk...
but no other software I have come across is any better
>
> I spent over 15 years teaching all sorts of students to use computers of
> many types, more and more of them Ms based towards the end. I have never
> been tempted to use Ms software myself (except when preparing materials
for
> class use.) On the contrary, the more I was exposed to newer, 'better'
> Windows systems the less I liked them.
but you have had years of training, I have used virtually nothing but
windows
>
> If you are really clued up in DOS it is probably possible to make a
> Windows system run reasonably well. I mean -really- clued up. I spent
four
> years teaching DOS to OND/HND students and I can't get Windows to work
> properly.
I have never knowingly typed in a dos command in my life.
Also remember I don't know what you mean by making windows work properly
because (if you ignore time on an Amstrad PCW) I have never used any other
software to compare with.Windows might be utter rubbish running at 10% of
the speed of other software if installed on this machine, but of this I
genuinely know nothing from personal experience. I have been told by people
whose opinion I respect that windows is pretty poor, but to be honest I have
no comparisons, and therefore cannot really make any judgements.
>
> Take a look at the shelves in your local bookshop. Resolve never to use
an
> operating system or application that is so bad that there's a market for
> third-party instruction manuals.
There is a lot of sense in that. All I ever bought was PCs for Dummys and
Windows 3.11 for Dummys
>
> Mary is correct in one thing: Without Gates PCs would't be where they are
> now, he is the single greatest impediment to the advance of computing.
It is funny, talking to a group of young people I know aged between 18 and
30. They all have better computers than me, seriously slick machines.
In their eyes computers are a games console that can handle email
Jim Webster
James Curts
I would be more inclined to think you had your head stuffed in an unlighted,
moist area and let your unfounded bias lead you down the path. I wonder if
your resentment was passed on to your unwitting students? I do have a number
of years experience with DOS and appreciate IBm for their contribution to
the computing industry. However, when the Windows OS with it's GUI became
readily available many more hours were available for computing without the
interuptions of manually coaxing the system to do your bidding.
Windows, in spite of and irregardless of all the belittling, resentments and
caterwalling is still the leading OS by choice of a vast majority of
purchasers and users and is the OS most sought after where restricted.
There are other OS's which suit particular industries more efficiently than
Windows but they are somewhat in the minority. Many corporations will
utilize another OS for a small protion of their needs and especially when
there is a security issue. Never the less, most desks throughout the
business will have a PC with Windows and MS Office loaded on it for the
necessary and productive convenience of comummicating with and interchanging
information with the rest of the computing world.
Windows may not be the best system going but it looks far back over it's
shoulder at the next runner up..........
Enjoy
James Curts
Charles Francis
<de...@farm-direct.co.uk> writes
>If you are really clued up in DOS it is probably possible to make a
>Windows system run reasonably well. I mean -really- clued up. I spent
>four years teaching DOS to OND/HND students and I can't get Windows to
>work properly.
>
designed solely to be the industry standard, and depart from it at your
peril, since you will lose compatibility with everyone else. As an
operating system it has always been mickey mouse, a downgraded imitation
of the systems which were available on other machines sold to people
without the experience to know the difference.
>
>Mary is correct in one thing: Without Gates PCs would't be where they
>are now, he is the single greatest impediment to the advance of
>computing.
Very true. In one of my more naive commercial decisions I tried breaking
from Windows and going with NeXT, which I ran for 10 yrs or so. When the
machines finally died and I was forced back to Windows it was a
seriously retrograde step as far as usability was concerned. Windows is
still not as good as NeXTStep was on its release, circa 1990. If ever I
have any spare money I would certainly move over to Mac.
Regards
--
Charles Francis
David G. Bell
cha...@lluestfarmpoultry.co.uk "Charles Francis" wrote:
I've had the good fortune to use Windows, MacOS, and Linux, at least
enough to judge the UI.
Windows has a decent UI, and the differences between Windows and Mac are
somewhat arbitrary -- the number of mouse buttons, using single and
double-clicks, that sort of thing.
At a deeper level, there are serious flaws in Windows, which arguably
has been a poorly designed OS, dangerously blurring distinctions between
User and OS software. Windows NT is a different, and far better, beast,
and the latest versions of Windows, which merged the too lines, are
better than the pure Win9x line.
As with Linux, this improvement does need the user to learn something
about proper OS management and control. And a lot of "legacy
applications", aka "games", have compromised the security and
reliability advantages of the NT design.
I also find myself deterred by some of the policy decisions of
Microsoft, seeming to be shifting away from (expensive) occasional
upgrades in the direction of (still expensive) software rental.
Derek Moody
<URL:mailto:J...@zerospam.ok.net> wrote:
>
> "Derek Moody" <de...@farm-direct.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:ant27174...@half-baked-idea.co.uk...
> > In article <ce5p9f$l75$2...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Jim Webster
> > <URL:mailto:J...@zerospam.ok.net> wrote:
> > Intuitive? - as in 'If you want to stop first go to Start..'?
>
> but no other software I have come across is any better
>
> >
> > I spent over 15 years teaching all sorts of students to use computers of
> > many types, more and more of them Ms based towards the end. I have never
> > been tempted to use Ms software myself (except when preparing materials
> for
> > class use.) On the contrary, the more I was exposed to newer, 'better'
> > Windows systems the less I liked them.
>
> but you have had years of training, I have used virtually nothing but
> windows
The really telling thing is that in an establishment with three platforms
(Win/DOS, Mac & RISCOS) we only ever had to run classes on Win/DOS.
> > If you are really clued up in DOS it is probably possible to make a
> > Windows system run reasonably well. I mean -really- clued up. I spent
> four
> > years teaching DOS to OND/HND students and I can't get Windows to work
> > properly.
>
> I have never knowingly typed in a dos command in my life.
Probably wise. PC/Ms DOS is relatively clunky and best avoided. It is
pretty much the only tool available for unclogging Windows otherwise it
would have been forgotten long ago.
> Also remember I don't know what you mean by making windows work properly
A simple example:
It should be possible to enter the 'Office', switch on the computer, hang up
hat and coat, sit down and begin typing a letter...
In practice, for many there is time to put the kettle on and make and drink
a cuppa before the machine is ready.
OK in reality you will not want to reboot the computer more than once every
week or so: From a running start to loading a Wp to enter a letter should
be no more than a few seconds. Word seems to take nearly a minute in the
default mode.
> because (if you ignore time on an Amstrad PCW) I have never used any other
Ah, CPM, The operating system that BG copied when he first wrote DOS...
> software to compare with.Windows might be utter rubbish running at 10% of
> the speed of other software if installed on this machine, but of this I
> genuinely know nothing from personal experience. I have been told by people
> whose opinion I respect that windows is pretty poor, but to be honest I have
> no comparisons, and therefore cannot really make any judgements.
But you do:-
> It is funny, talking to a group of young people I know aged between 18 and
> 30. They all have better computers than me, seriously slick machines.
> In their eyes computers are a games console that can handle email
Games consoles are excellent examples. How does the operating system on a
games console work? You don't know? In fact you do know but you never
noticed, you just turn it on and use it.
Oh, and most games consoles -can- handle email.
grey...@yahoo.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Noticed a pc, with many extras incl office for 399 in the paper today.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Just a thought, did it include such extras as monitor and keyboard?
>
>> Yes. Possibly a printer/fax/copier/scanner, too.
>
> Make sure your new system has drivers for your printer etc., or that they
> are available, especially if it is an old one.
>
> Jane
>
--
greymaus
Al Firan RumaiDin
97.025% of statistics are wrong
Derek Moody
<URL:mailto:Onth...@winners.com> wrote:
> I would be more inclined to think you had your head stuffed in an unlighted,
> moist area and let your unfounded bias lead you down the path. I wonder if
> your resentment was passed on to your unwitting students? I do have a number
I do hope so.
> of years experience with DOS and appreciate IBm for their contribution to
> the computing industry. However, when the Windows OS with it's GUI became
> readily available many more hours were available for computing without the
> interuptions of manually coaxing the system to do your bidding.
Sure DOS is awful - but you can't run Windows without it.
> Windows, in spite of and irregardless of all the belittling, resentments and
> caterwalling is still the leading OS by choice of a vast majority of
> purchasers and users and is the OS most sought after where restricted.
By purchasors - where those purchasors don't have to actually use it -
maybe. Economy of scale means that the purchase price is low.
Users? I'm not so sure.
What is certain is that -new- users of Macs and new users of Windows Pcs ask
about the same number of support questions for the first fortnight then you
har nothing more from the Mac users 'til they fill their hard drive whilst
Windows Users continue to need support.
Ex Windows users converting to Mac have a harder time. It's about a month
before they go quiet.
> there is a security issue. Never the less, most desks throughout the
> business will have a PC with Windows and MS Office loaded on it for the
> necessary and productive convenience of comummicating with and interchanging
> information with the rest of the computing world.
Yes, that -is- what it's for. Does it work?
> Windows may not be the best system going but it looks far back over it's
> shoulder at the next runner up..........
No. That's the leader almost a lap ahead.
Remember: 'Industry Standard' is another way of saying 'Mediocre'.
Jim Webster
I must confess I normally leave the machine on, last time I rebooted I would
reckon I had time to make the coffee. Drink it? Probably not.
>
> OK in reality you will not want to reboot the computer more than once
every
> week or so: From a running start to loading a Wp to enter a letter should
> be no more than a few seconds. Word seems to take nearly a minute in the
> default mode.
Obviously the machine is running, so I just clicked on Word, and it was
there to use within two seconds.
But I have very little on this machine other than the basic Office package,
Norton, and Adobe reader. And keep it that way because it can soon slow down
as you say.
>
> > because (if you ignore time on an Amstrad PCW) I have never used any
other
>
> Ah, CPM, The operating system that BG copied when he first wrote DOS...
CPM is a term I remember, but I confess to not knowing anything about it. I
remember the time I had to fit a modem to the PCW, as compared to adding it
to a Windows machine. I had to write the CPM commands in by rote which is an
experience that has long stayed with me.
>
> > software to compare with.Windows might be utter rubbish running at 10%
of
> > the speed of other software if installed on this machine, but of this I
> > genuinely know nothing from personal experience. I have been told by
people
> > whose opinion I respect that windows is pretty poor, but to be honest I
have
> > no comparisons, and therefore cannot really make any judgements.
>
> But you do:-
Well all I have said, is that for someone with no training, it is pretty
intuitive and comparatively easy to learn
> > It is funny, talking to a group of young people I know aged between 18
and
> > 30. They all have better computers than me, seriously slick machines.
> > In their eyes computers are a games console that can handle email
>
> Games consoles are excellent examples. How does the operating system on a
> games console work? You don't know? In fact you do know but you never
> noticed, you just turn it on and use it.
Well actually I've never used a games console :-))
Three daughters is my excuse
But I know what you mean, you should never know the operating system
>
> Oh, and most games consoles -can- handle email.
Hey, live and learn :-))
Last time I had anything to do with one, a friends son had one plugged into
the TV when I dropped round and he was trying some sort of strategy game and
getting nowhere. I made a few helpful comments and he handed me this bizarre
piece of multiangled plastic with buttons on strange surfaces. I inquired as
to how you held the thing, then handed it him back, told him to do the
moving and I would give the orders, and we cleaned up in pretty short order
Jim Webster
Jim Webster
""David G. Bell"" <db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:20040728.10...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk...
>
> I also find myself deterred by some of the policy decisions of
> Microsoft, seeming to be shifting away from (expensive) occasional
> upgrades in the direction of (still expensive) software rental.
yes, I to have noticed that and dislike it.
But given that they will be renting it out under different national
juristictions, might they run into trouble in that it you have rented the
software and have trouble, are you just going to cancel the credit card
payment and contact the local trading standards office?
To put it more simply, are software tenants going to be harder to fob off
than purchasers who have made a big capital investment?
OK so I am renting word 12, I upgrade to word 13 and decide it is a crock of
sh*t, so I demand my money back and go back to word 12.
The problem is that the law is different, and also for the company, the
money per transaction is less, but the hassle per transaction might well
increase
Just kicking ideas about here
Jim Webster
Charles Francis
<db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk> writes
>On Wednesday, in article <KsSBAwQ2...@clef.demon.co.uk>
> cha...@lluestfarmpoultry.co.uk "Charles Francis" wrote:
>
>> That's because Windows was never designed to work properly. It was
>> designed solely to be the industry standard, and depart from it at your
>> peril, since you will lose compatibility with everyone else. As an
>> operating system it has always been mickey mouse, a downgraded imitation
>> of the systems which were available on other machines sold to people
>> without the experience to know the difference.
>>
>> >
>> >Mary is correct in one thing: Without Gates PCs would't be where they
>> >are now, he is the single greatest impediment to the advance of
>> >computing.
>>
>> Very true. In one of my more naive commercial decisions I tried breaking
>> from Windows and going with NeXT, which I ran for 10 yrs or so. When the
>> machines finally died and I was forced back to Windows it was a
>> seriously retrograde step as far as usability was concerned. Windows is
>> still not as good as NeXTStep was on its release, circa 1990. If ever I
>> have any spare money I would certainly move over to Mac.
>
>I've had the good fortune to use Windows, MacOS, and Linux, at least
>enough to judge the UI.
>
>Windows has a decent UI, and the differences between Windows and Mac are
>somewhat arbitrary -- the number of mouse buttons, using single and
>double-clicks, that sort of thing.
I haven't used Mac's much, only about the time I was using NeXTStep &
Windows was pretty primitive. At the time I found Macs really quite
awkward. I don't know how they have developed but I heard a rumour that
since Steve Jobs went back to apple much of NeXTStep has appeared in the
OS. Of course it might be greatly exaggerated, and if so I am sure I
would find MacOS hugely disappointing.
>At a deeper level, there are serious flaws in Windows, which arguably
>has been a poorly designed OS, dangerously blurring distinctions between
>User and OS software. Windows NT is a different, and far better, beast,
>and the latest versions of Windows, which merged the too lines, are
>better than the pure Win9x line.
I use XP. It is still not as good as NeXTStep, either at a user or a
deeper level (where it was UNIX). But it wasn't just the UI. The way
applications work together under NeXTStep was hugely efficient.
>
>As with Linux, this improvement does need the user to learn something
>about proper OS management and control. And a lot of "legacy
>applications", aka "games", have compromised the security and
>reliability advantages of the NT design.
>
>I also find myself deterred by some of the policy decisions of
>Microsoft, seeming to be shifting away from (expensive) occasional
>upgrades in the direction of (still expensive) software rental.
I really dislike the company. If things were decided on purely technical
grounds, computing could be way better than it is today.
>
Regards
--
Charles Francis
James Curts
> In article <oHCNc.181898$JR4.167815@attbi_s54>, James Curts
> <URL:mailto:Onth...@winners.com> wrote:
>
> > I would be more inclined to think you had your head stuffed in an
unlighted,
> > moist area and let your unfounded bias lead you down the path. I wonder
if
> > your resentment was passed on to your unwitting students? I do have a
number
>
> I do hope so.
The fact still remains valid that even students who are denied the benefit
of learning from an open minded and knowledgeable teacher (in your case
admittedly having not mastered the Window OS) will go into a job using
Windows. Let us hope they can overlook and overcome the shortcomings of
their computer education and move ahead with otheres more fortunate.
>
> > of years experience with DOS and appreciate IBm for their contribution
to
> > the computing industry. However, when the Windows OS with it's GUI
became
> > readily available many more hours were available for computing without
the
> > interuptions of manually coaxing the system to do your bidding.
>
> Sure DOS is awful - but you can't run Windows without it.
Nor will a car operate without a differnential but you do not have to fiddle
with it in order to have it perform satisfactorily. Today's Windows systems
commonly in use do not require the users to even be aware of the existance
of DOS and most are not. For those still running older systems, it is
convenient to be aware of a dozen or so DOS functions and even then only
occaisionally and seldom for any significant task.
> > Windows, in spite of and irregardless of all the belittling, resentments
and
> > caterwalling is still the leading OS by choice of a vast majority of
> > purchasers and users and is the OS most sought after where restricted.
>
> By purchasors - where those purchasors don't have to actually use it -
> maybe. Economy of scale means that the purchase price is low.
Purchasers buy the Windows OS due to it's efficient handling of most tasks
asked of it, most users are familiar with it and the majority of software is
written for Windows. Economy of scale is not an issue because the price is
not low at any volumn and MS is not in a price confrontation with any
serious competitor.
> Users? I'm not so sure.
Users use what is in front of them. On the job they are much more likely to
use Windows because it is the choice of most businesses and, of course, at
home the gamesters use Windows. The small home busines can get by with much
less, and many do so, but most still appreciates the convenience of use and
the wide range of capabilities of the Windows and MS Office offerings.
> What is certain is that -new- users of Macs and new users of Windows Pcs
ask
> about the same number of support questions for the first fortnight then
you
> har nothing more from the Mac users 'til they fill their hard drive whilst
> Windows Users continue to need support.
I do not have any hard stats available on that but if the folks you mention
are getting the correct answers to their queries then we must assume some
other issue is at hand. The first thing which comes to mind is the many
times larger number of Windows users coupled with the ever increasing number
of high end software programs written for Windows which do indeed need some
explaining. Among those included in this group are everyone from a rattle
brained housewife that may have difficulty operationing a can opener, the
twelve year old who screwed up Bubba's new game to those who just don't get
it regardless of the information available. The informed user seldom has
support problems unless there is a contributing factor. Windows on it's own
is a quite decent OS.
The IT sources I follow attribute, and rightly so, most support issues to
lack of general knowledge of the system capabilities, improper installation
and setup of software and installing conflicting software before doing even
the most rudimentary check of mistakes many before them have made. There an
overwhelming amount of free and easily obtainable information on every
aspect of computing and one need only to spend a few minutes on a good
newsgroup or IT board to get an answer.
We buy most software as unsupported for much less cost and never have
support problems. The students we work with buy the student versions of
Office, etc. with no manuals or support and never look back.
>
> Ex Windows users converting to Mac have a harder time. It's about a month
> before they go quiet.
I am not acquainted with any Windows users who converted to Mac except to
perform a very singular task. I do know graphics oriented businesses who
prefer Macs. Otherwise the only folks who I know who use Macs after using
Windows are those who changed jobs and were parked in front of a Mac.
One issue we find in this area is the school systems have catered somewhat
to the Apple/Mac thing for many years because of the incentives offered by
outside organizations to buy them. The students still have PCs at home with
Windows on them and go on to work in businesses who use Windows. The
transitions are rather effortless and they just move on.
> > there is a security issue. Never the less, most desks throughout the
> > business will have a PC with Windows and MS Office loaded on it for the
> > necessary and productive convenience of comummicating with and
interchanging
> > information with the rest of the computing world.
>
> Yes, that -is- what it's for. Does it work?
It has worked for me for many years and without a hitch that was not due to
mechanical, personel or outside influence issues. I have used Windows
personally and in business since it's inception in many of it's various
forms and while sometimes wishing for some aditional capability, always
realized that the options offered by any other OS, of which there are very
few, had shortcomings in other areas.
> > Windows may not be the best system going but it looks far back over it's
> > shoulder at the next runner up..........
>
> No. That's the leader almost a lap ahead.
That is merely somewhat of a quip of the moment and especially as we look at
the numbers and realize what is accomplished each day by those using
Windows. I handle several hundred pieces of electronic communications on
many days of the week and can generally count on my fingers the number which
do are not originated in a Windows program and most often a MS Office
program.
> Remember: 'Industry Standard' is another way of saying 'Mediocre'.
Not in my part of the world it isn't. 'Industry Standard' means 'that which
is deemed to be the more efficient and cost effective for the task at hand
and therefore used throughout a given industry.'
> Cheerio,
James Curts
Jim Webster
"James Curts" <Onth...@winners.com> wrote in message news:dJUNc.174165
>
> Purchasers buy the Windows OS due to it's efficient handling of most tasks
> asked of it, most users are familiar with it and the majority of software
is
> written for Windows. Economy of scale is not an issue because the price is
> not low at any volumn and MS is not in a price confrontation with any
> serious competitor.
outside the business sector, I suspect most purchasers are largely unaware
of any other serious alternative to windows, for many domestic users,
knowing of the existance of MACs is getting a bit techie :-))
Jim Webster
Charles Francis
<Onth...@winners.com> writes
>"Derek Moody" <de...@farm-direct.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:ant28131...@half-baked-idea.co.uk...
>
>asked of it, most users are familiar with it and the majority of software is
>written for Windows. Economy of scale is not an issue because the price is
>not low at any volumn and MS is not in a price confrontation with any
>serious competitor.
They buy it because it is cheap, and it is cheap because there are a lot
of copies. Probably cost you an extra £400 to go the mac route, and
then you may have compatibility problems with people using Windows. No
one buys it because it is good. It is because it is effectively all
there is.
>It has worked for me for many years and without a hitch that was not due to
>mechanical, personel or outside influence issues. I have used Windows
>personally and in business since it's inception in many of it's various
>forms and while sometimes wishing for some aditional capability, always
>realized that the options offered by any other OS, of which there are very
>few, had shortcomings in other areas.
I never found a major shortcoming in NeXTstep in nearly ten years of
using it, apart from the fact that it was tied to a particular computer.
>> Remember: 'Industry Standard' is another way of saying 'Mediocre'.
>
>Not in my part of the world it isn't. 'Industry Standard' means 'that which
>is deemed to be the more efficient and cost effective for the task at hand
>and therefore used throughout a given industry.'
But it is not. It is only cheaper because it is the industry standard,
and using a windows machine is only more efficient also because it is
the industry standard. If a different OS had become the industry
standard computers could be much more efficient and cost effective than
they are.
Regards
--
Charles Francis
Charles Francis
<m...@privacy.net> writes
>In article <lMiKIUc7...@clef.demon.co.uk>,
>cha...@lluestfarmpoultry.co.uk says...
>
>>
>> I haven't used Mac's much, only about the time I was using NeXTStep &
>> Windows was pretty primitive. At the time I found Macs really quite
>> awkward. I don't know how they have developed but I heard a rumour that
>> since Steve Jobs went back to apple much of NeXTStep has appeared in the
>> OS. Of course it might be greatly exaggerated, and if so I am sure I
>> would find MacOS hugely disappointing.
>>
Sound promising.
>
>Son has it on his laptop - but won't let me play.
Regards
--
Charles Francis
James Curts
news:wy4vnejQ...@clef.demon.co.uk...
You answered most of the arguments in a few short paragraphs. Pricing and
numbers, the "others" are limited in some manner and MS made the move to
lead the way and yes, it is effectively "all there is" from a number of
stand points. I will never say Windows is a perfect OS but it is still the
number one in use by a very large margin and the business man or individual
who chooses to opt for Windows based systems will be well served.
I have not a clue as to the price of a Mac and have never inquired due to
having no need for any of it's particular offerings. I do understand from
others that prices are somewhat higher and they generally have to go some
distance to have a choice of purchases.
We may or may not like MS and or Bill Gates but he has put a substantial
product before a very huge consumer group and they continue to surge to the
market place to buy it. I personally respect the man for his continuing
foresight and business acumen and for the fact he shares millions of dollars
with those who are less fortunate.
James Curts
James Curts
news:MPG.1b722db7d...@news.individual.net...
> In article <dJUNc.174165$a24.45093@attbi_s03>, Onth...@winners.com
> says...
> > "Derek Moody" <de...@farm-direct.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:ant28131...@half-baked-idea.co.uk...
>
month
> > > before they go quiet.
> >
> > I am not acquainted with any Windows users who converted to Mac except
to
> > perform a very singular task. I do know graphics oriented businesses who
> > prefer Macs. Otherwise the only folks who I know who use Macs after
using
> > Windows are those who changed jobs and were parked in front of a Mac.
> >
>
> Windows user through to his early 20's and now a devoted Mac fan - he
> finds it far more stable and intuitive.
>
> From what I've seen I wouldn't disagree with his views. Now that some of
> the more common packages are becoming cross platform [and free] I'm
> getting seriously tempted to look at it as an OS when/if I get a new
> 'pooter.
>
> --
> David
I'm certain we could scrounge up many selected individuals who for their own
reasons have switched to Mac systems for some reason. I have acquaintances
who have used nothing else and have no intentions of doing so. Mac is not
bad. That was never the issue.
James Curts
James Curts
news:ce969u$8k0$3...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
I believe you are correct with that statement.
I buy several computers a year for various reasons and have not bought a
shelf model computer for ten years or so. I have them custom made with the
specific components that I choose. I have never, in my narrow path of
wanderings, found a dealer who would custom assemble a Mac. It has, in fact,
never crossed my mind to even seriously inquire. Perhaps I have a unique
situation in which Windows is just the cat's meow but it has served me well.
I am not a "techie" in any regard and have acquired most of my modus
operandi from being a mechanic. In that business you want to resolve issues
and use what works and continues to work for you. This method of addressing
issues was imparted to me on a remote cattle ranch where the first try was
the one you lived with.
James Curts
Oz
>outside the business sector, I suspect most purchasers are largely unaware
>of any other serious alternative to windows,
Windows os maybe.
But there are reams of good free or nearly free software about that will
do what you want and not enrich microspft.
I have word 2 and the os,
otherwise there is no ms stuff on this machine.
I haven't used them but there are spreadsheet programs and word
processors that would probably do about anything most individuals want
knocking about for free or a nominal charge.
I will almost certainly switch to linux when what I have can no longer
be supported. By then wine will probably run everything I have without
problem (probably does already) and stuff will be so fast I won't
notice.
--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
BTOPENWORLD address about to cease. DEMON address no longer in use.
>>Use o...@farmeroz.port995.com<<
ozac...@despammed.com still functions.
Jim Webster
"Oz" <o...@farmeroz.port995.com> wrote in message
news:Pra8C9Cr...@farmeroz.port995.com...
> Jim Webster <J...@zerospam.mok.net> writes
>
> >outside the business sector, I suspect most purchasers are largely
unaware
> >of any other serious alternative to windows,
>
> Windows os maybe.
>
> But there are reams of good free or nearly free software about that will
> do what you want and not enrich microspft.
>
> I have word 2 and the os,
> otherwise there is no ms stuff on this machine.
>
> I haven't used them but there are spreadsheet programs and word
> processors that would probably do about anything most individuals want
> knocking about for free or a nominal charge.
>
> I will almost certainly switch to linux when what I have can no longer
> be supported. By then wine will probably run everything I have without
> problem (probably does already) and stuff will be so fast I won't
> notice.
yes but you are interested in these things. You probably even read
occassional issues of computer magazines.
For most people it isn't an issue, they just aren't interested, it is
James's comment about the mechanics attitude, they use it, it works well
enough, they know of no other options and certainly haven't experienced them
and Windows does perfectly well for what they want
Jim Webster
Jim Webster
"Charles Francis" <cha...@lluestfarmpoultry.co.uk> wrote in message
news:wy4vnejQ...@clef.demon.co.uk...
> <Onth...@winners.com> writes
> >"Derek Moody" <de...@farm-direct.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:ant28131...@half-baked-idea.co.uk...
> >
> >Purchasers buy the Windows OS due to it's efficient handling of most
tasks
> >asked of it, most users are familiar with it and the majority of software
is
> >written for Windows. Economy of scale is not an issue because the price
is
> >not low at any volumn and MS is not in a price confrontation with any
> >serious competitor.
>
> They buy it because it is cheap, and it is cheap because there are a lot
> of copies. Probably cost you an extra £400 to go the mac route, and
> then you may have compatibility problems with people using Windows. No
> one buys it because it is good. It is because it is effectively all
> there is.
They also buy it because it largely doesn't matter to them. The operating
system is adequate for them, the machine does what they want, and any
efficiency savings are pretty meaningless to them anyway.
>
> >It has worked for me for many years and without a hitch that was not due
to
> >mechanical, personel or outside influence issues. I have used Windows
> >personally and in business since it's inception in many of it's various
> >forms and while sometimes wishing for some aditional capability, always
> >realized that the options offered by any other OS, of which there are
very
> >few, had shortcomings in other areas.
>
> I never found a major shortcoming in NeXTstep in nearly ten years of
> using it, apart from the fact that it was tied to a particular computer.
> >> Remember: 'Industry Standard' is another way of saying 'Mediocre'.
> >
> >Not in my part of the world it isn't. 'Industry Standard' means 'that
which
> >is deemed to be the more efficient and cost effective for the task at
hand
> >and therefore used throughout a given industry.'
>
> But it is not. It is only cheaper because it is the industry standard,
> and using a windows machine is only more efficient also because it is
> the industry standard. If a different OS had become the industry
> standard computers could be much more efficient and cost effective than
> they are.
or could well have been worse. We could have ended up with something laid
down by a government department
Jim Webster
Oz
>yes but you are interested in these things. You probably even read
>occassional issues of computer magazines.
>For most people it isn't an issue, they just aren't interested, it is
>James's comment about the mechanics attitude, they use it, it works well
>enough, they know of no other options and certainly haven't experienced them
>and Windows does perfectly well for what they want
Fine by me. When you find you have to pay m$oft 50 quid each year to
keep your computer going, and 50 to keep word going, and 20 for exploder
and ....
You might take a different view.
Of course m$oft will make any transition to a competing os as hard as
they can possible manage. They do quite a job with word and excel
already.
Charles Francis
<o...@farmeroz.port995.com> writes
>Jim Webster <J...@zerospam.mok.net> writes
>
>>outside the business sector, I suspect most purchasers are largely unaware
>>of any other serious alternative to windows,
>
>Windows os maybe.
>
>But there are reams of good free or nearly free software about that
>will do what you want and not enrich microspft.
>
>I have word 2 and the os,
>otherwise there is no ms stuff on this machine.
I only have the os
>
>I haven't used them but there are spreadsheet programs and word
>processors that would probably do about anything most individuals want
>knocking about for free or a nominal charge.
But If I want to export data from my accounts package and into a
spreadsheet (and I almost certainly do), I have to export it into Excel.
So if and when I get a spread sheet package it has to be Excel, and no
other. :-(
Compare that to software running under NeXTStep. Every program was
guaranteed to integrate seemlessly with every other. So no matter how
many programs you had, it all worked just like one single super app.
Regards
--
Charles Francis
Jim Webster
> Jim Webster <J...@zerospam.mok.net> writes
> >yes but you are interested in these things. You probably even read
> >occassional issues of computer magazines.
> >For most people it isn't an issue, they just aren't interested, it is
> >James's comment about the mechanics attitude, they use it, it works well
> >enough, they know of no other options and certainly haven't experienced
them
> >and Windows does perfectly well for what they want
>
> Fine by me. When you find you have to pay m$oft 50 quid each year to
> keep your computer going, and 50 to keep word going, and 20 for exploder
> and ....
>
> You might take a different view.
of course, but that is the if, and I also pointed out a few posts back that
this is an interesting can of worms because they will be tied into rental
agreements under European law, which might be not what they want
After all, if there is a problem with the software I rent, then it is up to
the landlord to put it right, and I suspect European courts could well look
favourably on a tenant who wanted compensation for loss incurred by the
landlords incompetence
Jim Webster
Howard Neil
> Jim Webster <J...@zerospam.mok.net> writes
>
>
>>outside the business sector, I suspect most purchasers are largely unaware
>>of any other serious alternative to windows,
>
>
> Windows os maybe.
>
> But there are reams of good free or nearly free software about that will
> do what you want and not enrich microspft.
>
> I have word 2 and the os,
> otherwise there is no ms stuff on this machine.
>
> I haven't used them but there are spreadsheet programs and word
> processors that would probably do about anything most individuals want
> knocking about for free or a nominal charge.
>
> I will almost certainly switch to linux when what I have can no longer
> be supported. By then wine will probably run everything I have without
> problem (probably does already) and stuff will be so fast I won't
> notice.
>
I agree with you philosophy re "office" type programs but what about
other software that has been designed to work in Windoze? I have many
programs in regular use that have been designed this way.
For instance, I have one program which records and collates the readings
from my weather station. This is a niche type program which was hard
enough to find (performing the exact function I wanted) in Windoze, I
would not expect to find it in other OS's. I have many other programs
which also are unlikely to be available in other OS's.
Then there is the matter of a large amount of data in a couple of
regularly used Excel spreadsheets. I know this would be transferable but
it would most likely need fine tuning before being usable. This is not a
job to be done while getting used to a new OS, leaving these sheets
unusable for a while.
Then there is the cost of re-buying software (those that will run in the
new OS) that I have already paid for.
I would love to try something like Linux but I am put off by the above
issues. I am not interested in dual booting; my computer takes too long
to start and I don't want to add that overhead when switching programs.
What I am waiting for is software that would allow Windoze programs to
run in Linux. I saw such a program being spoken of recently but it seems
there are problems with it.
For the moment, I am trapped in Windoze.
--
Howard Neil
Oz
>> Fine by me. When you find you have to pay m$oft 50 quid each year to
>> keep your computer going, and 50 to keep word going, and 20 for exploder
>> and ....
>>
>> You might take a different view.
>
>of course, but that is the if, and I also pointed out a few posts back that
>this is an interesting can of worms because they will be tied into rental
>agreements under European law, which might be not what they want
>
>After all, if there is a problem with the software I rent, then it is up to
>the landlord to put it right,
eventually, and only if it is a significant fault.
You can't just claim for the equivalent of slightly peeling paintwork.
>and I suspect European courts could well look
>favourably on a tenant who wanted compensation for loss incurred by the
>landlords incompetence
That may well be so, but thats true in consumer law as well.
Not many people have won anything yet.
Oz
>But If I want to export data from my accounts package and into a spreadsheet
>(and I almost certainly do), I have to export it into Excel. So if and when I
>get a spread sheet package it has to be Excel, and no other. :-(
So you have excel as well.
Tried quattro pro, reads and handles excel files,
cheap, but not hugely stable sometimes.
>Compare that to software running under NeXTStep. Every program was guaranteed to
>integrate seemlessly with every other. So no matter how many programs you had,
>it all worked just like one single super app.
That's because it all came from one manufacturer who had you over a
barrel. Been there, don't like it.
grey...@yahoo.com
>>
>> Ah, CPM, The operating system that BG copied when he first wrote DOS...
>
Bill bought a CP/M copy from Seattle Computer systems and used it. It
was written for 16bit systems.
>>
>> > 30. They all have better computers than me, seriously slick machines.
>> > In their eyes computers are a games console that can handle email
>>
>> Games consoles are excellent examples. How does the operating system on a
>> games console work? You don't know? In fact you do know but you never
>> noticed, you just turn it on and use it.
>
>> Oh, and most games consoles -can- handle email.
The PS2 can handle email with add-ons. Not really good at it.
The XBOX can be altered to run a real operating system, and is really
a PC with extraordinary amount of work done to prevent it being used
as a PC. 750mzh, nVidia video accelerator, no PCI slots, unusual USB
sockets, needs special tools to open. It uses DVD disks of a special
type, which no present consumer writer can write, and the DVD's are
written in the opposite way than usual. (reading from someones notes)
The Sunday Times has a CD every month. I tried a look on the family's
Windows PC, and it `updated' some files, which stopped some of their
utilities working.. Straight into the oven since. A games console is a
good investment so you can stop the youngsters using your PC
Jane Gillett
<grey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:52:33 +0100, Jane Gillett wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Noticed a pc, with many extras incl office for 399 in the paper today.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Just a thought, did it include such extras as monitor and keyboard?
> >
> >> Yes. Possibly a printer/fax/copier/scanner, too.
> >
> > Make sure your new system has drivers for your printer etc., or that they
> > are available, especially if it is an old one.
> >
> > Jane
> >
> a lot of the very cheap printers, etc, only work under Windows.
You can't always get drivers for old printers etc which worked under much
earlier versions of windows.
Jane
--
Jane G : j.gi...@stertfarm.co.uk : S Devon
Oz
>I agree with you
<aaarrrrgggghhhhh!!!!!>
>philosophy re "office" type programs but what about other
>software that has been designed to work in Windoze? I have many programs in
>regular use that have been designed this way.
Hence wine. Wine Is Not an Emulator.
MSWindows under linux....
>For instance, I have one program which records and collates the readings from my
>weather station. This is a niche type program which was hard enough to find
>(performing the exact function I wanted) in Windoze, I would not expect to find
>it in other OS's. I have many other programs which also are unlikely to be
>available in other OS's.
see wine....
>Then there is the matter of a large amount of data in a couple of regularly used
>Excel spreadsheets. I know this would be transferable but it would most likely
>need fine tuning before being usable. This is not a job to be done while getting
>used to a new OS, leaving these sheets unusable for a while.
wine....
>Then there is the cost of re-buying software (those that will run in the new OS)
>that I have already paid for.
much is free (even if these are a tad slow)
>I would love to try something like Linux but I am put off by the above issues. I
>am not interested in dual booting;
Very wise.
>my computer takes too long to start
why do you turn it off?
>and I
>don't want to add that overhead when switching programs. What I am waiting for
>is software that would allow Windoze programs to run in Linux.
wine....
>I saw such a
>program being spoken of recently but it seems there are problems with it.
I doubt its perfect, but from what I have heard nearly everything normal
works fine.
Howard Neil
> Howard Neil <hn...@REMOVETOREPLY.co.uk> writes
>
>
>>I agree with you
>
>
> <aaarrrrgggghhhhh!!!!!>
:-)
>
>>philosophy re "office" type programs but what about other
>>software that has been designed to work in Windoze? I have many programs in
>>regular use that have been designed this way.
>
>
> Hence wine. Wine Is Not an Emulator.
> MSWindows under linux....
>
Thanks. This may be the very thing I am looking for. I am a little busy
ATM but I have bookmarked Wine's home page and I will look deeper into
it when I can devote quality time to it.
>>my computer takes too long to start
>
>
> why do you turn it off?
I don't. It does. Why do you think I am so keen to lose Windoze?
--
Howard Neil
Charles Francis
<o...@farmeroz.port995.com> writes
>Charles Francis <cha...@clef.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>>But If I want to export data from my accounts package and into a spreadsheet
>>(and I almost certainly do), I have to export it into Excel. So if and when I
>>get a spread sheet package it has to be Excel, and no other. :-(
>
>So you have excel as well.
Try reading sometimes. It can help.
>
>Tried quattro pro, reads and handles excel files,
>cheap, but not hugely stable sometimes.
>
>>Compare that to software running under NeXTStep. Every program was
>>guaranteed to
>>integrate seemlessly with every other. So no matter how many programs
>>you had,
>>it all worked just like one single super app.
>
>That's because it all came from one manufacturer who had you over a
>barrel. Been there, don't like it.
>
No it did not.It came with a full object oriented programming system, so
that software writer working under NeXTStep and using the objects was
bound to create software which integrated seemlessly with all other
applications.
Regards
--
Charles Francis
Jim Webster
> Jim Webster <J...@zerospam.mok.net> writes
> >
> >"Oz" <o...@farmeroz.port995.com> wrote in message
>
> >> Fine by me. When you find you have to pay m$oft 50 quid each year to
> >> keep your computer going, and 50 to keep word going, and 20 for
exploder
> >> and ....
> >>
> >> You might take a different view.
> >
> >of course, but that is the if, and I also pointed out a few posts back
that
> >this is an interesting can of worms because they will be tied into rental
> >agreements under European law, which might be not what they want
> >
> >After all, if there is a problem with the software I rent, then it is up
to
> >the landlord to put it right,
>
> eventually, and only if it is a significant fault.
> You can't just claim for the equivalent of slightly peeling paintwork.
no shortage of significant faults in new software so that will not be a
problem. The sheer cost of going down that road should deter any sensible
company
>
> >and I suspect European courts could well look
> >favourably on a tenant who wanted compensation for loss incurred by the
> >landlords incompetence
>
> That may well be so, but thats true in consumer law as well.
> Not many people have won anything yet.
Don't worry, once the French start bringing cases against Micro$oft to the
European courts things will change will speed :-))
Jim Webster
David G. Bell
Onth...@winners.com "James Curts" wrote:
Custom hardware has _nothing_ to do with having to use Windows.
The Mac has closely integrated hardware and software design. but that
does mean limited choice-space.
The PC has different CPUs, and an incredible range of hardware. The
software needed to connect hardware to the OS has to be written, and
those drivers bias the market to Windows, but hardware support in Linux,
expecially for some of the more arcane hardware, is quite good. You may
have few problems with hardware for control systems. An off the shelf
scanner for the office will need a little more care.
And these are custom hardware applications for which Windows makes no
sense at all. You can put together Windows-compatible hardware which
could run as a firewall, but it would be reckless to install Windows.
I don't know just what you're buying computers for, but a custom machine
with the components selected with Linus in mind might do as good a job,
or better.
--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
"History shows that the Singularity started when Sir Tim Berners-Lee
was bitten by a radioactive spider."
David G. Bell
<4108b299$0$76956$ed26...@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>
hn...@REMOVETOREPLY.co.uk "Howard Neil" wrote:
You might be very pleasantly surprised. That is almost the classic
open-source situation -- some enthusiast wants to use the hardware,
writes a driver, and gives is away to everyone.
> Then there is the matter of a large amount of data in a couple of
> regularly used Excel spreadsheets. I know this would be transferable but
> it would most likely need fine tuning before being usable. This is not a
> job to be done while getting used to a new OS, leaving these sheets
> unusable for a while.
That's a routine problem. Excel is commonplace enough that the data
from an older version should be ready readable. You may have as many
problems if you upgraded Excel.
> Then there is the cost of re-buying software (those that will run in the
> new OS) that I have already paid for.
>
> I would love to try something like Linux but I am put off by the above
> issues. I am not interested in dual booting; my computer takes too long
> to start and I don't want to add that overhead when switching programs.
> What I am waiting for is software that would allow Windoze programs to
> run in Linux. I saw such a program being spoken of recently but it seems
> there are problems with it.
>
> For the moment, I am trapped in Windoze.
Linux will get around most of the software-buying problem.
Dual booting is good for learning Linux, but you're right about
switching programs. There are paid-for answers such as VMware --
virtual machines on the same hardware.
For Windows programs under Linux, the usual answer is Wine. It has been
used for Linux versions of Windows software, which run using Wine, not
as full native Linux. The advantage is that they could write the
software with this in mind, avoiding any problems there might be in
Wine, but Microsoft didn't have that constraint, even if they didn't use
undocumented Windows functions.
What I would suggest is a cheap PC and a KVM switch, so that you could
have one machine running Windows, and the cheaper machine, possibly
quite old, running Linux. The KVN switch lets you switch keyboard,
video, and monitor between the two machines. It need not cost much to
network the two boxes too.
Once networked, it's not a big job to arrange that each machine can see
a part, or all, of the other's hard drive.
A good first step, not involving Linus at all, would be to try
OpenOffice. It comes in Windows and Linux versions, is good at reading
MS Office files, and is free. At least while you're testing and
learning, but you should pay for professional use.
The problem with Linux is that it is a serious, professional, multi-user
operating system. It has built in to the core the features needed to
allow many users to share the hardware, and keep their files private.
This means that running the system -- installing software for one thing,
and other common jobs -- is made more complicated than many people are
comfortable with.
The same sorts of control were in Windows NT, and are in current Windows
XP, but a lot is hidden away, until something goes wrong.
The advantages of this are in the control you can have. Essentially, by
creating a user account especially for a program, you can control
precisely what the program can access. A program logging data from a
weather station doesn't need to connect to the Internet: it could write
that data so that a web server, running as another user with its own
limits, could make it available on the web. And neither program would
have permission to read your personal files.
As I sid, that makes life complicated. And because a lot of Windows
games were not written with that in mind, Windows systems tend to be set
up with gaping security holes, by default.
David G. Bell
<EJhe6zFF...@farmeroz.port995.com>
o...@farmeroz.port995.com "Oz" wrote:
> Charles Francis <cha...@clef.demon.co.uk> writes
>
> >Compare that to software running under NeXTStep. Every program was guaranteed
> to
> >integrate seemlessly with every other. So no matter how many programs you had,
> >it all worked just like one single super app.
>
> That's because it all came from one manufacturer who had you over a
> barrel. Been there, don't like it.
Windows has Cut and Paste, it has standard keyboard shortcuts...
It's bloody frustrating when a manufacturer doesn't use the shortcuts.
There's a balance in this.
David G. Bell
<4cd5f2732...@stertfarm.co.uk>
j.gi...@stertfarm.co.uk "Jane Gillett" wrote:
Linux compatibility is a good test.
It means the manufacturer isn't so hung up on keeping secrets that
there's not people out there who know how to write new drivers, and can,
and likely will.
Oz
>>>my computer takes too long to start
>>
>>
>> why do you turn it off?
>
>I don't. It does. Why do you think I am so keen to lose Windoze?
Odd ....
Howard Neil
Thanks for the comments. Oz has mentioned Wine which I will examine
properly when I have sufficient time. It it does its intended job for
me, it sounds like the best option for me.
I like the sound of having control over Linux and can happily live with
the complexity. Does anyone have any recommendations as to version of
Linux?
--
Howard Neil
Howard Neil
> Howard Neil <hn...@REMOVETOREPLY.co.uk> writes
>
>>>>my computer takes too long to start
>>>
>>>
>>>why do you turn it off?
>>
>>I don't. It does. Why do you think I am so keen to lose Windoze?
>
>
> Odd ....
>
Perhaps I should have been clearer (I was in a hurry) Windoze will
occasionally crash, causing me to re-boot.
--
Howard Neil
Derek Moody
> >Compare that to software running under NeXTStep. Every program was guaranteed to
> >integrate seemlessly with every other. So no matter how many programs you had,
> >it all worked just like one single super app.
>
> That's because it all came from one manufacturer who had you over a
> barrel. Been there, don't like it.
No, the OS offers a standard modular interface, third-party software hooks
into that interface and everything has access to the new function/app.
Cheerio,
--
Derek Moody
<URL:mailto:hn...@REMOVETOREPLY.co.uk> wrote:
> Oz wrote:
> > I will almost certainly switch to linux when what I have can no longer
> > be supported. By then wine will probably run everything I have without
> > problem (probably does already) and stuff will be so fast I won't
> > notice.
<much snippage and some re-ordering>
> I agree with you philosophy re "office" type programs but what about
> other software that has been designed to work in Windoze? I have many
> programs in regular use that have been designed this way.
> I would love to try something like Linux but I am put off by the above
> issues. I am not interested in dual booting; my computer takes too long
> to start and I don't want to add that overhead when switching programs.
> What I am waiting for is software that would allow Windoze programs to
> run in Linux. I saw such a program being spoken of recently but it seems
> there are problems with it.
>
> For the moment, I am trapped in Windoze.
Linux wouldn't be my personal first choice but it does have many advantages.
Next time you have to upgrade - or sooner if you prefer to pick up a
second hand 'obsolete' model, put linux on the old model and your work on
the new. Select a couple of non critical tasks and install them on Linux.
Migrate other tasks as and when you feel ready.
If you are short of space you can either put your mouse, keyboard and
monitor on a switchbox or you can network the machines and run an Xclient on
the new computer leaving the Linux box without peripherals.
For the user Linux is roughly as easy to learn as Windows - the only trap
for the unwary is that there must also be a root (sysop/supervisor) who
-must- not act as a user. In a standalone system you are both and
forgetting which you are currently can be messy. Most of the learning curve
is in this all-powerful root administration area.
Expect a ghastly week, a tough month, a tricky quarter, then suddenly you
realise it's six months since you last rebooted.
About which time you install Linux on the new machine and devide whether to
bother reinstalling Windows on the old one.
> Then there is the cost of re-buying software (those that will run in the
> new OS) that I have already paid for.
So don't: Wine first then GNU.
Derek Moody
<URL:mailto:Onth...@winners.com> wrote:
> I have not a clue as to the price of a Mac and have never inquired due to
> having no need for any of it's particular offerings. I do understand from
> others that prices are somewhat higher and they generally have to go some
> distance to have a choice of purchases.
Initial purchase is higher but replacement is much less frequent and so
it's cheaper in the long run.
> We may or may not like MS and or Bill Gates but he has put a substantial
> product before a very huge consumer group and they continue to surge to the
Oh he's a brilliant salesman all right. It's just a pity that he chose to
sell software and not soft fruit.
Derek Moody
<URL:mailto:J...@zerospam.mok.net> wrote:
> For most people it isn't an issue, they just aren't interested, it is
> James's comment about the mechanics attitude, they use it, it works well
> enough, they know of no other options and certainly haven't experienced them
> and Windows does perfectly well for what they want
This thread started with a query about upgrading software. The specific
reasons were not given but I'd hazard that someone's files were not longer
compatible with the software in use by another. I'd also guess that these
were versions of the SAME program.
How old is your main computer?
My main desktop model was made in 1996. I have a 1994 model that is
perfectly functional except that it has the serial ability of it's time and
can't handle full net speeds. I keep looking at the 2004 models - very nice
they are too but I don't need the extra speed, I don't need the extra
functionality atm (maybe soon but that's another matter) so until something
breaks for which I cannot get spares I'll stick with what I have. When I do
buy the newest machine it will cost me about twice what I would pay for an
equivalent Ms-based Pc but all my old software will transfer painlessly and
much of it will pick up additional functionality direct from the operating
system.
From a user (me) pov I have saved considerably over the last ten years. The
supplier may not be quite so happy: My more efficient (RISC OS) system means
I don't have to replace what ain't broke...
...Which is probably why suppliers prefer to sell Ms based systems with
built-in obsolescence.
Derek Moody
<URL:mailto:cha...@clef.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> But If I want to export data from my accounts package and into a
> spreadsheet (and I almost certainly do), I have to export it into Excel.
> So if and when I get a spread sheet package it has to be Excel, and no
> other. :-(
?? no tsv/csv option?
Derek Moody
<URL:mailto:grey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Games consoles are excellent examples. How does the operating system on a
> >> games console work? You don't know? In fact you do know but you never
> >> noticed, you just turn it on and use it.
> >
> >> Oh, and most games consoles -can- handle email.
>
> The PS2 can handle email with add-ons. Not really good at it.
> The XBOX can be altered to run a real operating system, and is really
> a PC with extraordinary amount of work done to prevent it being used
> as a PC. 750mzh, nVidia video accelerator, no PCI slots, unusual USB
> sockets, needs special tools to open. It uses DVD disks of a special
> type, which no present consumer writer can write, and the DVD's are
> written in the opposite way than usual. (reading from someones notes)
Just remind me, who developed the XBOX?
> utilities working.. Straight into the oven since. A games console is a
> good investment so you can stop the youngsters using your PC
Every now and then someone asks me to help them choose a new Pc. For those
with kids it's usually because the latest games have taken over the family
computer and everything is grinding to a halt.
A common plan is to buy a mew model for 'real' computing and give the old
model to the kids. All this does is ensure a repeat of the cycle as the
latest games -require- the latest OS.
A better tactic is to buy the new model expressly for the kids games and to
strip and reinstall everything on the old Pc which, without the games, gets
a new lease of life.
Derek Moody
<URL:mailto:Onth...@winners.com> wrote:
> "Derek Moody" <de...@farm-direct.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:ant28131...@half-baked-idea.co.uk...
> > In article <oHCNc.181898$JR4.167815@attbi_s54>, James Curts
> > <URL:mailto:Onth...@winners.com> wrote:
> The fact still remains valid that even students who are denied the benefit
> of learning from an open minded and knowledgeable teacher (in your case
> admittedly having not mastered the Window OS) will go into a job using
> Windows. Let us hope they can overlook and overcome the shortcomings of
> their computer education and move ahead with otheres more fortunate.
Enough passed their exams to suggest they have a reasonable chance.
You seem to suggest that 'an open minded and knowledgeable teacher' is one
who knows Windows and nothing else - a curious definition.
> > Sure DOS is awful - but you can't run Windows without it.
>
> Nor will a car operate without a differnential but you do not have to fiddle
> with it in order to have it perform satisfactorily.
Cars have better developed operating systems - though enough underlying
knowledge to change the oil remains an advantage.
> > > Windows, in spite of and irregardless of all the belittling, resentments
> and
> > > caterwalling is still the leading OS by choice of a vast majority of
> > > purchasers and users and is the OS most sought after where restricted.
> >
> > By purchasors - where those purchasors don't have to actually use it -
> > maybe. Economy of scale means that the purchase price is low.
>
> Purchasers buy the Windows OS due to it's efficient handling of most tasks
> asked of it, most users are familiar with it and the majority of software is
> written for Windows.
No. They buy it because Ms have such a stranglehold on the market that they
never hear of the competition. If it were bought for efficiency then you
would see comparison charts and articles onthe subject. As it is those who
buy for efficiency no longer bother to check Ms offerings.
> less, and many do so, but most still appreciates the convenience of use and
> the wide range of capabilities of the Windows and MS Office offerings.
Most haven't a clue what Office offers.
> The IT sources I follow attribute, and rightly so, most support issues to
> lack of general knowledge of the system capabilities, improper installation
> and setup of software and installing conflicting software before doing even
> the most rudimentary check of mistakes many before them have made. There an
Which errors Windows permits them to make and then requires a reboot to
recover from.
> It has worked for me for many years and without a hitch that was not due to
> mechanical, personel or outside influence issues. I have used Windows
> personally and in business since it's inception in many of it's various
> forms and while sometimes wishing for some aditional capability, always
> realized that the options offered by any other OS, of which there are very
> few, had shortcomings in other areas.
If it wprks for you then fine, stick with it but do check out the
alternatives occasionally.
> > > Windows may not be the best system going but it looks far back over it's
> > > shoulder at the next runner up..........
> >
> > No. That's the leader almost a lap ahead.
>
> That is merely somewhat of a quip of the moment and especially as we look at
Of course it is.
Windows is only in front in terms of installed base. Other OSes are several
laps in front in other ways.
> the numbers and realize what is accomplished each day by those using
> Windows. I handle several hundred pieces of electronic communications on
> many days of the week and can generally count on my fingers the number which
> do are not originated in a Windows program and most often a MS Office
> program.
So?
> > Remember: 'Industry Standard' is another way of saying 'Mediocre'.
>
> Not in my part of the world it isn't. 'Industry Standard' means 'that which
> is deemed to be the more efficient and cost effective for the task at hand
> and therefore used throughout a given industry.'
No. Just 'what everyone else uses' and so 'safe'.
Why not be a little adventurous?
Jim Webster
> In article <slrncgfjit....@darkstar.ie>,
> A better tactic is to buy the new model expressly for the kids games and
to
> strip and reinstall everything on the old Pc which, without the games,
gets
> a new lease of life.
that is effectively what we do by accident. As none of us are at all
interested in computer games, we can run along nicely with old PCs
Jim Webster
Jim Webster
> In article <cea5c0$snr$5...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Jim Webster
> <URL:mailto:J...@zerospam.mok.net> wrote:
>
> > For most people it isn't an issue, they just aren't interested, it is
> > James's comment about the mechanics attitude, they use it, it works well
> > enough, they know of no other options and certainly haven't experienced
them
> > and Windows does perfectly well for what they want
>
> This thread started with a query about upgrading software. The specific
> reasons were not given but I'd hazard that someone's files were not longer
> compatible with the software in use by another. I'd also guess that these
> were versions of the SAME program.
>
> How old is your main computer?
Main computer!
You mean people have more than one!
:-))
I think it is now six years old (But has had bits put in during the period
so has more RAM etc
>
> My main desktop model was made in 1996. I have a 1994 model that is
> perfectly functional except that it has the serial ability of it's time
and
> can't handle full net speeds. I keep looking at the 2004 models - very
nice
> they are too but I don't need the extra speed, I don't need the extra
> functionality atm (maybe soon but that's another matter) so until
something
> breaks for which I cannot get spares I'll stick with what I have. When I
do
> buy the newest machine it will cost me about twice what I would pay for an
> equivalent Ms-based Pc but all my old software will transfer painlessly
and
> much of it will pick up additional functionality direct from the operating
> system.
>
> From a user (me) pov I have saved considerably over the last ten years.
The
> supplier may not be quite so happy: My more efficient (RISC OS) system
means
> I don't have to replace what ain't broke...
>
My main reason for changing was two pieces of obsolescence. Firstly Norton
no longer supported antivirus software than was compatible with windows 95
that I was running.
The second reason was that I had to have a version of word that could read
the new ones going about because I have to edit in that format. (I could get
a Mac and use the appropriate software, but everything I do has to be
Windows and Mac compatible. Hence I had to run Windows 98 at least. For my
own use 95 is perfectly adequate, and if it wasn't attached to the net, I
could scrap Norton anyway. But the floppy disk drive was also knackered so
it was very much a stand alone machine
Jim Webster
Jim Webster
>
> Expect a ghastly week, a tough month, a tricky quarter, then suddenly you
> realise it's six months since you last rebooted.
>
not being nasty, but to be honest, it isn't worth it. I do things on the
computer. I don't want to have to waste time actually having to run the
computer as well.
It strikes me as a bit like having to mow, while at the same time having to
adjust the fuel flow to each cylinder and the oil pressure to the hyraulics
and power steering.
Too much work on computers and computer systems is done by people who think
it is interesting.
I don't ever want to have to know anything about the operating system of my
computer, in the same way as I don't want to know the rate of flow of diesel
into the cylinders of the tractor.
A computer is a tool for doing something, and as such should really be
effectively invisible, it shouldn't need constant tinkering with in itself.
I am perfectly happy for intelligent and incredibly skillful people to work
on operating systems that I will never pretend to understand, I think that
their work is important, and am perfectly willing to grant them a great deal
of credit for their achievements. But I don't want to have to waste time
when I should be working, having to learn about what they do.
I don't want metallurgists harranging me about the hardness or otherwise of
haybob tines, so I would rather hope that computer experts would work in the
same sort of way :-((
Jim Webster
Jim Webster
> No. They buy it because Ms have such a stranglehold on the market that
they
> never hear of the competition. If it were bought for efficiency then you
> would see comparison charts and articles onthe subject. As it is those
who
> buy for efficiency no longer bother to check Ms offerings.
>
> > less, and many do so, but most still appreciates the convenience of use
and
> > the wide range of capabilities of the Windows and MS Office offerings.
>
> Most haven't a clue what Office offers.
>
absolutely, and almost certainly aren't trained to use most of it.
I fall very firmly into that class. I have spread sheet and data base
programmes which are capable of things that i have never even heard of.
Just a glance at one of the menus on Excel tells me it will do 'Goal seek',
'Scenarios' and 'Auditing'.
My grasp of the English Language gives me a fair idea of what these could
mean, but to be honest I haven't the faintest idea and am most unlikely to
ever use them.
To an extent this is a function of the marketing. You might as well produce
one package that just about covers what 95% of users want, but by definition
most of us are never going to use most of it, so it just clutters up the
hard drive
Jim Webster
Oz
>Perhaps I should have been clearer (I was in a hurry) Windoze will occasionally
>crash, causing me to re-boot.
Gosh, mine goes on for months on end...
UNLESS I am having to process very large image files, when the software
is inclined to become flakey. Mind you I am talking about 10gB files
here, one is 23GB!
Oz
>I don't ever want to have to know anything about the operating system of my
>computer, in the same way as I don't want to know the rate of flow of diesel
>into the cylinders of the tractor.
>A computer is a tool for doing something, and as such should really be
>effectively invisible, it shouldn't need constant tinkering with in itself.
Then don't. Get someone to set it up and logon as a user...
Jim Webster
> Jim Webster <J...@zerospam.mok.net> writes
> >I don't ever want to have to know anything about the operating system of
my
> >computer, in the same way as I don't want to know the rate of flow of
diesel
> >into the cylinders of the tractor.
> >A computer is a tool for doing something, and as such should really be
> >effectively invisible, it shouldn't need constant tinkering with in
itself.
>
> Then don't. Get someone to set it up and logon as a user...
that makes as much sense as saying "we know cars are flakey, so hire a
chauffeur"
Makes far more sense for the industry to actually produce a reliable product
rather than assuming the users are a lot of hobbyists with nothing better to
do with their time than actually tinker with the product
Jim Webster
Howard Neil
> Howard Neil <hn...@REMOVETOREPLY.co.uk> writes
>
>>Perhaps I should have been clearer (I was in a hurry) Windoze will occasionally
>>crash, causing me to re-boot.
>
>
> Gosh, mine goes on for months on end...
>
> UNLESS I am having to process very large image files, when the software
> is inclined to become flakey. Mind you I am talking about 10gB files
> here, one is 23GB!
>
--
Howard Neil
Howard Neil
> For the user Linux is roughly as easy to learn as Windows - the only trap
> for the unwary is that there must also be a root (sysop/supervisor) who
> -must- not act as a user. In a standalone system you are both and
> forgetting which you are currently can be messy. Most of the learning curve
> is in this all-powerful root administration area.
Sounds fun as well.
>
> Expect a ghastly week, a tough month, a tricky quarter, then suddenly you
> realise it's six months since you last rebooted.
*That's* what I want (the six months since last re-boot bit).
>
> About which time you install Linux on the new machine and devide whether to
> bother reinstalling Windows on the old one.
>
>
>>Then there is the cost of re-buying software (those that will run in the
>>new OS) that I have already paid for.
>
>
> So don't: Wine first then GNU.
Thanks for the advice. It seems everyone likes Wine. As I have said to
others, I will wait for a less busy time (middle of haymaking at the
moment) and investigate Wine. If I am happy with what I see, I will go
straight for it. I will probably dual boot initially so that I have an
escape route.
--
Howard Neil
grey...@yahoo.com
>> >
>> a lot of the very cheap printers, etc, only work under Windows.
>
> You can't always get drivers for old printers etc which worked under much
> earlier versions of windows.
Not yeally worthwhile either, the very cheap printers are sometimes
cheaper than a ink/powder refill. The printer beside me cost about
300euro, a refill cost 145!.
--
greymaus
Al Firan RumaiDin
97.025% of statistics are wrong
grey...@yahoo.com
> me, it sounds like the best option for me.
>
> I like the sound of having control over Linux and can happily live with
> the complexity. Does anyone have any recommendations as to version of
> Linux?
>
Red Hat is very graphically configurable. I use Slackware, but I never
migrated to Windows at all, so I have no problem with a command line.
I use Awk to analyse a CSV file for accounts, sc to work through
options, vi for editing.. All very far from `User-friendly'. Excel and
Word, though excellent programs, save their data in massive proprietry
forms, AFAIK, a floppy will not take a big Word savefile. There can be
immense fun with Word or Excel saved-files, they are not really files,
but archives, which sometimes have deleted sections internally. Some
Internet sites have differing version of the same Word file/archive
with deleted or first drafts vs final saves.
Charles Francis
<J...@zerospam.mok.net> writes
see what happens. You never know, you may find it is something you
actually want to do, and did not know about.
Regards
--
Charles Francis
James Curts
"Jim Webster" <J...@zerospam.mok.net> wrote in message
news:cea5c0$snr$5...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...> news:Pra8C9Cr...@farmeroz.port995.com...
> > Jim Webster <J...@zerospam.mok.net> writes
> >
> > >outside the business sector, I suspect most purchasers are largely
> unaware
> > >of any other serious alternative to windows,
> >
> > Windows os maybe.
> >
> > But there are reams of good free or nearly free software about that will
> > do what you want and not enrich microspft.
> >
> > I have word 2 and the os,
> > otherwise there is no ms stuff on this machine.
> >
> > I haven't used them but there are spreadsheet programs and word
> > processors that would probably do about anything most individuals want
> > knocking about for free or a nominal charge.
> >
> > be supported. By then wine will probably run everything I have without
> > problem (probably does already) and stuff will be so fast I won't
> > notice.
>
> occassional issues of computer magazines.
> For most people it isn't an issue, they just aren't interested, it is
> James's comment about the mechanics attitude, they use it, it works well
> enough, they know of no other options and certainly haven't experienced
them
> and Windows does perfectly well for what they want
This isn't exactly what I implied. I meant to convey the premise that
through using, learning and being aware of the options one chooses the best
suited to perform the task in a consistent and reliable manner. This is true
of a common screwdriver, a sophisticated piece of analytical gear or a
computer system. Hence being prepared when that issue arises where you must
be right the first time as rethinking or redoing is not an option.
I am aware of many of the hardware and software options as presented at a
variety of professional demonstrations and workshops the past number of
years.
If I were to incorporate an OS other than Windows it would be some form of
Linux and then only for a narrow range of proprietory tasks and perhaps for
the added security against specific communications attacks and would have to
work along with the Windows system. While all the machines I am involved
with are online 24/7 we have no virus, trojan or other problems by just
using common place safeguards with Windows.
James Curts
Oz
Win98
>Are you using Wine?
No.
But the image (still ones) are quite big .....
Oz
>>Oz
>> Then don't. Get someone to set it up and logon as a user...
>
>
>that makes as much sense as saying "we know cars are flakey, so hire a
>chauffeur"
No it makes as much sense as using a mechanic to service your vehicle.
>Makes far more sense for the industry to actually produce a reliable product
>rather than assuming the users are a lot of hobbyists with nothing better to
>do with their time than actually tinker with the product
I suspect that much less tinkering is required for linux than w98 (let
alone 95).