Do animals have minds?
Hamish Macbeth
"Michelle Fulton" <mhful...@prodigy-nospam.net> wrote in message
news:GpEW8.3010$0F7.12...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
> > Having said all of that, none of us, including you, really knows the
depths
> of the animal mind, and it is irresponsible to assume they don't have one.
> I would agree with you that too many animals are brought into this world
for
> the purpose of human pleasure/usage, but you would be well served to
change
> your tack and logic if you 'really' want to change anyone's mind on this
> subject.
Well put.
For my three years at Uni I went horse riding as the wednesday afternoon
sports activity. Never riden prior or since.
I would hate to think the horse did not have a mind, because it out witted
me most of the time. I certainly went over more jumps than the horse did,
and the horse could calculate which tree branches were higher that its head
and lower than mine.
I find I can't hit 'reply to newsgroup' on MF's posts I get an error and
'Line 3 too Long'.
I guess it is something in the header, cos cutting and pasting body into a
new thread works OK.
Anyone any idea? I've had the effect on several of MF's news postings.
Yr Holli (anag.)
news:agfkhd$jh8$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
<snip>
> I find I can't hit 'reply to newsgroup' on MF's posts I get an error and
> 'Line 3 too Long'.
> I guess it is something in the header, cos cutting and pasting body into a
> new thread works OK.
> Anyone any idea? I've had the effect on several of MF's news postings.
Google?
(The answer is out there...)
David P
<Hamish....@btinternet.com> wrote:
>I find I can't hit 'reply to newsgroup' on MF's posts I get an error and
>'Line 3 too Long'.
>I guess it is something in the header, cos cutting and pasting body into a
>new thread works OK.
>Anyone any idea? I've had the effect on several of MF's news postings.
>
Yes, it is due to the reference headers [or so I have been told] that
get too long for many newsreaders and it refuses to post them.
Turnpike apparently waraps to a couple of lines but others, like mine,
stick at one line and it falls over.
A while back Roy or Old Codger [apologies if it was someone else]
posted a quick and dirty fix which involvd taking the message into a
text file and editing it before putting it back again - or something
like that - it was too techy for me. I simply find an earlier post in
the thread to 'reply' to which doesn't have all the references. By
deleting the original text and quoting the appropriate post and
response you can then reply to the same thread. It may screw those
readers that like to follow on properly but I haven't actually had any
complaints yet.
The other alternative is to do as you have done and create a new
thread.
--
David
Visit http://www.farm-direct.co.uk for your local farmgate food supplies.
FAQ's, Glossary, Farming Year and more!
Chris Mead
from "Hamish Macbeth" <Hamish....@btinternet.com> contains these words:
snippo
> I find I can't hit 'reply to newsgroup' on MF's posts I get an error and
> 'Line 3 too Long'.
> I guess it is something in the header, cos cutting and pasting body into a
> new thread works OK.
> Anyone any idea? I've had the effect on several of MF's news postings.
She is in Texas. Big is long too!
--
Chris Mead, Hilborough, Norfolk
chris...@zetnet.co.uk or chris...@farm-direct.co.uk
Visit http://www.farm-direct.co.uk/ to find your local farm gate outlets
Visit http://www.birdcare.com/birdon for bird information
And http://www.bto.org/migwatch to log bird migration and see it happen
Peter N Allen
"Chris Mead" <chris...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:200207100...@zetnet.co.uk...
> The message <agfkhd$jh8$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
> from "Hamish Macbeth" <Hamish....@btinternet.com> contains these
words:
>
> snippo
Heracy? No, just that in our arrogance we forget the science of brain
power.
We (especially the English) are academic snobs, and top academics are
convinced that acres of text and hectares of tables of endless data are
really clever. The reverse is true - any one read Tony Buzan? famous for
being world champion memory man - infact is a top academic in psychology and
brain mechanisms. But Brits don't rate psychology as a real science.
Fact is Einstein did not come up with relativity with endless algebra - he
visualised it first - then and only then explained with all the "clever"
maths. So we all think first and foremost in pictorial visual images (which
the academics then use their OS's to covert to "clever" text and maths) My
point is that we and they(animals) use visual thought processes - or don't
we accept that they see like us? Oh dear, our sophisticated Cambridge
graduate won't like this at all.
Peter A
Oz
>We (especially the English) are academic snobs,
Some are, the better ones are not IME.
>and top academics are
>convinced that acres of text and hectares of tables of endless data are
>really clever.
Simply untrue. It's the design of the work and the analysis of the
results obtained which count.
>The reverse is true - any one read Tony Buzan? famous for
>being world champion memory man - infact is a top academic in psychology and
>brain mechanisms. But Brits don't rate psychology as a real science.
I have no idea where you get that idea from, we have many world class
psychologists (as against psychiatrists - quite a different thing).
>Fact is Einstein did not come up with relativity with endless algebra - he
>visualised it first - then and only then explained with all the "clever"
>maths.
Not quite true. He visualised it (wrongly several times) and then got
someone else to do the clever maths.
>So we all think first and foremost in pictorial visual images (which
>the academics then use their OS's to covert to "clever" text and maths)
Actually we don't. Men usually do, women usually do things verbally.
>My
>point is that we and they(animals) use visual thought processes - or don't
>we accept that they see like us?
I doubt even that is true. Some animals who rely mostly on scent are
known to dream in smells (by tracking brain activity whilst they are
asleep, since you ask) and most animals also dream with movement. I
expect a mole (see current scientific american) would drean in 'touch'.
--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Michelle Fulton
> from "Hamish Macbeth" <Hamish....@btinternet.com> contains these
words:
>
> snippo
>
> > I find I can't hit 'reply to newsgroup' on MF's posts I get an error
and
> > 'Line 3 too Long'.
> > I guess it is something in the header, cos cutting and pasting body into
a
> > new thread works OK.
> > Anyone any idea? I've had the effect on several of MF's news postings.
>
> She is in Texas. Big is long too!
>
LOL!
Hey, Hamish.....how long has this been happening? I've been having trouble
the last 2 days with the Prodigy server not updating regularly and I'm
thinking because they are merging with SBC and Yahoo that they are doing
some server configuring and that might have something to do with it????
I was trying to give them a few days before I start complaining but they
have a new news group associated with the conversion/merger and maybe I'll
just go ahead and post my questions.
M
Gerald L R Stubbs
from Oz <O...@upthorpe.demon.co.uk> contains these words:
> Peter N Allen writes
> >The reverse is true - any one read Tony Buzan? famous for
> >being world champion memory man - infact is a top academic in
> >psychology and
> >brain mechanisms. But Brits don't rate psychology as a real science.
> I have no idea where you get that idea from, we have many world class
> psychologists (as against psychiatrists - quite a different thing).
Indeed, a psychiatrist must be in possession of an MD.
A psychologist can come in off the street.
--
Stubbsy stu...@zetnet.co.uk
Five Cats
<peter...@cowcash-uk.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>Back to topic?
>"Chris Mead" <chris...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:200207100...@zetnet.co.uk...
>> The message <agfkhd$jh8$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>
>> from "Hamish Macbeth" <Hamish....@btinternet.com> contains these
>words:
>>
>> snippo
>Yes - animals think, and what is more they do just like us!??
I have no doubt that animals (at least my cats) think - but what they
think is often a mystery to me. They make it clear if they are hungry,
are trained (!) to come to a certain noise which promises cat treats,
and apparently have a range of emotions including envy and frustration.
However until we have a talking cat (or dog or cow etc.) I cannot see
any way we can be *sure* what they think or how they perceptualise their
thoughts, despite all the gee-wizzery of EMR scans and the like.
<snip>
--
Five Cats
Oz
>However until we have a talking cat (or dog or cow etc.) I cannot see
>any way we can be *sure* what they think or how they perceptualise their
>thoughts, despite all the gee-wizzery of EMR scans and the like.
I'm not so sure. We know that cats, rats and dogs dream with
similar/identical activity in the brain to when awake. Change their
environment when awake and you will get different patterns that are
repeated when they next sleep.
To me this is pretty good evidence that they can perceptualise their
environments as it would be absurd to say they can do it when they are
asleep, but not when they are awake.
Buffalo herds in africa have a 'voting' system for where they will graze
after a liedown for cudding. Each animal stands up in turn and faces the
direction they would choose and then lies down. When it's time to move
on to new grazing the herd goes in the 'most voted' direction. It's
never random, but pointed to potential grazing areas. It's hard to
explain this without accepting some level of perceptualisation.
There has been a lot of work on mazes, for example, where a thirsty rat
given the opportunity of doing several mazes takes the one that reaches
water whilst a hungry one takes the one that leads to food. It's hard to
explain this without accepting that the rat can conceptualise.
We also know that guide dogs get bored with following a regular route
(to work for example) and both work out, and take, different routes on
their own volition. I find it hard not to believe that this cannot
involve perceptualising since the dog is only told "work" and has to:
1) Realise that this is an endpoint and not a route.
2) Perceptualise a route in advance and then take it.
One case I heard the dog took a bus one wet and cold winter's day, and
went two stops to the consternation of it's owner who wasn't aware the
bus ran down a parallel street and could reduce the distance walked by
75%. [I knew 'does he take sugar' would come in useful one day]
Why some people think we need a long philosophical discussion with an
animal to determine if animals perceptualise is unclear to me. Surely
careful observation will suffice (which is what we do of humans
actually).
The fact that humans communicate at high speed and with high clarity
using an ancient verbal route makes it unsurprising that we 'think'
verbally. I can see no reason why an animal would not mentally follow a
variety of routes and 'see' an outcome(s) and then choose what it
considers the most beneficial route without using words.
I do not believe we are so different from the higher mammals in
conceptualising, other than we probably do it rather better.
Oz
So can a self professed physicist, take a look in sci.physics and see
legions of them.
That won;t get you a university teching post though.
Old Codger
news:3d2b5b1f...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 22:28:10 +0100, "Hamish Macbeth"
> <Hamish....@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> >I find I can't hit 'reply to newsgroup' on MF's posts I get an
error and
> >'Line 3 too Long'.
> >I guess it is something in the header, cos cutting and pasting body
into a
> >new thread works OK.
> >Anyone any idea? I've had the effect on several of MF's news
postings.
> >
> Yes, it is due to the reference headers [or so I have been told]
that
> get too long for many newsreaders and it refuses to post them.
> Turnpike apparently waraps to a couple of lines but others, like
mine,
> stick at one line and it falls over.
>
> A while back Roy or Old Codger [apologies if it was someone else]
> posted a quick and dirty fix which involvd taking the message into a
> text file and editing it before putting it back again - or something
> like that - it was too techy for me.
It was Roy, responding when I had this very problem - "error 441 line
4 too long". Can't understand why he is so shy and referring to
Google.
Have found the relevant post so if anyone wants it again I can copy it
over.
--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field
Peter N Allen
"Oz" <O...@upthorpe.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:pjUIVQBu...@upthorpe.demon.co.uk...
I would point out though that Oz did misquote me much earlier in the tail
(as he is prone to do, in order maintain the wise old owl image. I did not
say we do not have good psychologists in UK - rather the opposite. I said
in general psychologists do not enjoy the respect they should have, and
hence their science is under rated by "establishment" groups and "top
professionals". The crap we get fed by Government and Unions alike that "we
won't attract top people unless we pay sky high salaries and massive share
handouts". As if GP's and Company Directors alike would choose their
careers to be Road Sweepers if you paid them enough! How seldom anyone
bothers to check how steep the pyramid is in parallel nations, who manage to
pay "fat cats" much less, but somehow manage to succeed in beating us in
world markets.
Phew, another load off the chipped shoulders.
Peter A
Oz
>The crap we get fed by Government and Unions alike that "we
>won't attract top people unless we pay sky high salaries and massive share
>handouts". As if GP's and Company Directors alike would choose their
>careers to be Road Sweepers if you paid them enough!
We are already seeing inversion in that some blue collar workers (eg car
mechanics, electricians) earn more than many white collar workers.
In a generation it will be more extreme as the numbers of half-smart
blue collar workers being trained is minimal, whilst we have uncounted
hoards of 'media studies' graduates.
If I had kids with "A" levels under CCC I would be urging them strongly
to go into a skilled trade.
--
Yr Holli (anag.)
news:JpmX8.16920$VP6.1139746@stones...
<snip>
> It was Roy, responding when I had this very problem - "error 441 line
> 4 too long". Can't understand why he is so shy and referring to
> Google.
Didn't you see this one?
OK - perhaps it was overly brief.
But I had no desire to incur the wrath of the snipping OzGod ;>)
"Yr Holli (anag.)" <Roy_J...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:agflbu$laoql$1...@ID-100578.news.dfncis.de...
> "Hamish Macbeth" <Hamish....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:agfkhd$jh8$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> <snip>
> > I find I can't hit 'reply to newsgroup' on MF's posts I get an error
and
> > 'Line 3 too Long'.
> > I guess it is something in the header, cos cutting and pasting body into
a
> > new thread works OK.
> > Anyone any idea? I've had the effect on several of MF's news postings.
>
Peter N Allen
I see - so you would urge others to "chase the cash"?
Where do "aptitude", interest, and motivation fit in - when choosing or
guiding careeers?
Did you choose farming for the cash benefits then?
Peter A
David G. Bell
<eHpFMLAb...@upthorpe.demon.co.uk>
O...@upthorpe.demon.co.uk "Oz" wrote:
Or even a "gap year" doing some basic vocational qualification, even if
they have better grades. Or does that mess up student loans and stuff?
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
Mr. Punch's Advice to a Young Man About to Become a Farmer:
"Marry, instead."
Michael Saunby
"Peter N Allen" <peter...@cowcash-uk.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:agmqm1$o6p$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Oz" <O...@upthorpe.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:eHpFMLAb...@upthorpe.demon.co.uk...
> > Peter N Allen writes
> >
> > >The crap we get fed by Government and Unions alike that "we
> > >won't attract top people unless we pay sky high salaries and massive
> share
> > >handouts". As if GP's and Company Directors alike would choose their
> > >careers to be Road Sweepers if you paid them enough!
> >
I've met a gardener who was on over 40k a year, he seemed a great deal
happier, and healthier, than any GP I've ever met. So perhaps "enough",
isn't even as much as they get now, just enough to live a decent life.
I'd certainly switch to road sweeping for that sort of money. It wouldn't
make me rich, but it would cover my costs.
> > We are already seeing inversion in that some blue collar workers (eg
car
> > mechanics, electricians) earn more than many white collar workers.
> >
> > In a generation it will be more extreme as the numbers of half-smart
> > blue collar workers being trained is minimal, whilst we have uncounted
> > hoards of 'media studies' graduates.
> >
> > If I had kids with "A" levels under CCC I would be urging them strongly
> > to go into a skilled trade.
>
> I see - so you would urge others to "chase the cash"?
> Where do "aptitude", interest, and motivation fit in - when choosing or
> guiding careeers?
>
> Did you choose farming for the cash benefits then?
>
Being "over qualified" is already starting to be an issue. I know two
people, both in their 30s with first degrees in IT or engineering and MBAs
that have been made redundant are a presently not required in the field
they were previously working - one was telecoms so that's not too
surprising, but the other was in non-IT services. I've been contacted by
others I've worked with in the past asking about work.Ok, part of the
problem is that these folks were earning perhaps 2 times the average wage,
perhaps more, but then they've got houses, lifestyles, etc. to match and
the change in the economy has been very sudden. It's not really possible,
or sensible, to feel sorry for these people, but it should be a warning to
everyone.
Sure, the number of jobs in the UK isn't falling, that's because the
government have adopted a clever little trick of increasing public sector
employment at the same rate as private sector collapse. Sure it sounds
great to be getting more teachers, nurses, etc. However, when you see that
schools are begging classroom assistants to take teacher training courses
to convert them to teachers, you don't really want to know what might be
happening in hospitals.
Michael Saunby
Five Cats
<O...@upthorpe.demon.co.uk> writes
>Five Cats writes
>
>>However until we have a talking cat (or dog or cow etc.) I cannot see
>>any way we can be *sure* what they think or how they perceptualise their
>>thoughts, despite all the gee-wizzery of EMR scans and the like.
>
>I'm not so sure. We know that cats, rats and dogs dream with
>similar/identical activity in the brain to when awake. Change their
>environment when awake and you will get different patterns that are
>repeated when they next sleep.
>
>To me this is pretty good evidence that they can perceptualise their
>environments as it would be absurd to say they can do it when they are
>asleep, but not when they are awake.
I didn't say they can't do it, but that we don't know just what they do
think about / dream about because they can't tell us.
>
>Buffalo herds in africa have a 'voting' system for where they will graze
>after a liedown for cudding. Each animal stands up in turn and faces the
>direction they would choose and then lies down. When it's time to move
>on to new grazing the herd goes in the 'most voted' direction. It's
>never random, but pointed to potential grazing areas. It's hard to
>explain this without accepting some level of perceptualisation.
Would you say the same about a bee honey dance?
>
>There has been a lot of work on mazes, for example, where a thirsty rat
>given the opportunity of doing several mazes takes the one that reaches
>water whilst a hungry one takes the one that leads to food. It's hard to
>explain this without accepting that the rat can conceptualise.
>
>We also know that guide dogs get bored with following a regular route
>(to work for example) and both work out, and take, different routes on
>their own volition. I find it hard not to believe that this cannot
>involve perceptualising since the dog is only told "work" and has to:
>
>1) Realise that this is an endpoint and not a route.
>2) Perceptualise a route in advance and then take it.
I can often do that in areas I don't know by dint of a good sense of
distance and fair sense of direction.
>
>One case I heard the dog took a bus one wet and cold winter's day, and
>went two stops to the consternation of it's owner who wasn't aware the
>bus ran down a parallel street and could reduce the distance walked by
>75%. [I knew 'does he take sugar' would come in useful one day]
>
>Why some people think we need a long philosophical discussion with an
>animal to determine if animals perceptualise is unclear to me. Surely
>careful observation will suffice (which is what we do of humans
>actually).
I have no doubt that they do - but I don't know just *what* they
perceptualise.
>
>The fact that humans communicate at high speed and with high clarity
>using an ancient verbal route makes it unsurprising that we 'think'
>verbally. I can see no reason why an animal would not mentally follow a
>variety of routes and 'see' an outcome(s) and then choose what it
>considers the most beneficial route without using words.
>
>I do not believe we are so different from the higher mammals in
>conceptualising, other than we probably do it rather better.
>
--
Five Cats
Jim Webster
"David G. Bell" <db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:20020712.16...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk...
> On Friday, in article
> <eHpFMLAb...@upthorpe.demon.co.uk>
> O...@upthorpe.demon.co.uk "Oz" wrote:
>
> > Peter N Allen writes
> >
> > >The crap we get fed by Government and Unions alike that "we
> > >won't attract top people unless we pay sky high salaries and
massive share
> > >handouts". As if GP's and Company Directors alike would choose
their
> > >careers to be Road Sweepers if you paid them enough!
> >
> > We are already seeing inversion in that some blue collar workers (eg
car
> > mechanics, electricians) earn more than many white collar workers.
> >
> > In a generation it will be more extreme as the numbers of half-smart
> > blue collar workers being trained is minimal, whilst we have
uncounted
> > hoards of 'media studies' graduates.
> >
> > If I had kids with "A" levels under CCC I would be urging them
strongly
> > to go into a skilled trade.
>
> Or even a "gap year" doing some basic vocational qualification, even
if
> they have better grades. Or does that mess up student loans and
stuff?
>
a surprisingly large number of farmers round here encouraged sons to get
trades after school before coming into the farm. This is not entirely a
good thing, my next door neighbour is a time served draffie. Pity
everything he did was with pencil on paper and he knows less about
CADCAM than I do.
There is one trade that has changed considerably over the last thirty
years.
--
Jim Webster
"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"
'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'
Oz
>> to go into a skilled trade.
>
>I see - so you would urge others to "chase the cash"?
>Where do "aptitude", interest, and motivation fit in - when choosing or
>guiding careeers?
I don;t see an electrician's or car mechanics as necessarily less
rewarding.
>Did you choose farming for the cash benefits then?
Certainly partly.
Some of us have to earn our living.
Oz
>>Oz:
>> If I had kids with "A" levels under CCC I would be urging them strongly
>> to go into a skilled trade.
>
>Or even a "gap year" doing some basic vocational qualification, even if
>they have better grades. Or does that mess up student loans and stuff?
Gap years are for working for cash and having oriental holidays.
The ONE time in your life when you are free of all encumbrances and fit
enough to take advantage of it.
Oz
>I didn't say they can't do it, but that we don't know just what they do
>think about / dream about because they can't tell us.
The scans are similar to the scans when awake, as are humans.
It's thus likely that they 'see' dreams in a similar way that we see
dreams, but with different senses to the fore.
>>Buffalo herds in africa have a 'voting' system for where they will graze
>>after a liedown for cudding. Each animal stands up in turn and faces the
>>direction they would choose and then lies down. When it's time to move
>>on to new grazing the herd goes in the 'most voted' direction. It's
>>never random, but pointed to potential grazing areas. It's hard to
>>explain this without accepting some level of perceptualisation.
>
>Would you say the same about a bee honey dance?
Tricky. But no.
>>Why some people think we need a long philosophical discussion with an
>>animal to determine if animals perceptualise is unclear to me. Surely
>>careful observation will suffice (which is what we do of humans
>>actually).
>
>I have no doubt that they do - but I don't know just *what* they
>perceptualise.
Of course. I don't even know if you see red the way I do.
David G. Bell
j...@everyone.knows.where.by.now "Jim Webster" wrote:
A friend of mine did that, then got an engineering degree, and the last
time I met him he was making a living as a calligraphy teacher.
Michael Saunby
"Jim Webster" <j...@everyone.knows.where.by.now> wrote in message
news:agn7h7$rn3$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
[snip]
>
> a surprisingly large number of farmers round here encouraged sons to get
> trades after school before coming into the farm. This is not entirely a
> good thing, my next door neighbour is a time served draffie. Pity
> everything he did was with pencil on paper and he knows less about
> CADCAM than I do.
> There is one trade that has changed considerably over the last thirty
> years.
>
A great many trades have come and gone in just a couple of decades, e.g. TV
repairman was once a well paid job. Pity all those web designers, they
(really) haven't got a clue.
Michael Saunby
Hamish Macbeth
"Michael Saunby" <msa...@despammed.com> wrote in message
news:1026577619.7144.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
> A great many trades have come and gone in just a couple of decades, e.g.
TV
> repairman was once a well paid job. Pity all those web designers, they
> (really) haven't got a clue.
I doubt that the TV repair men are unemployed. IT/PC maintenance
contractors, network installation technicians,
SKY installers are probably the successors to TV repair.
Web design will become a (important) part of the advertising industry. The
skills will be artistic rather than technical.
Michael Saunby
Sure, and those who do the work may become the employees of the large
corporations that take on the work. Though it's likely that many doing the
work now will either not wish to work for such organisations or the
organisations will not regard them as suitable to work in a corporate
environment. The skill set such people have is of only temporary use, if
they picked it up easily because they have the capacity to move easily from
tv repairer to satellite installer, to web designer, to corporate drone,
then it's not a problem.
Michael Saunby
Jane Gillett
Hamish Macbeth <Hamish....@btinternet.com> wrote:
Trouble is the artists seem to think we want to hang around while their
wonders materialise; I just want the answer to my question, not a
demonstration of how clever they are. If it's not quick I don't wait so
whatever persuasive powers they have do not come into play.
Cheers
jane
--
Jane G : j.gi...@stertfarm.co.uk : S Devon
Hamish Macbeth
"Jane Gillett" <j.gi...@stertfarm.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4b55d134f...@stertfarm.co.uk...
> In article <agpko1$8gm$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>,>
> Trouble is the artists seem to think we want to hang around while their
> wonders materialise; I just want the answer to my question, not a
> demonstration of how clever they are. If it's not quick I don't wait so
> whatever persuasive powers they have do not come into play.
That is because the technology is new and people are playing with the toy.
It will calm down and speed and visual effectiveness will become the norm
rather than whizz bang but no content.
Jane Gillett
Hamish Macbeth <Hamish....@btinternet.com> wrote:
Hope so. In the meantime, if you want me (ie a potential customer) to read
your site, make sure it is created by someone who knows what is important
not just someone wanting to play with his toy.
Cheers
Jane
Jane Gillett
Hamish Macbeth <Hamish....@btinternet.com> wrote:
A bit more whizz would be nice. I suspect many sites are only tested ( and
demonstrated) on the machines where they were created, and where they exist
in cache, so the slowness of download is not apparent.
It would also be nice if the artists arranged the order of download so that
you could get the answers/move on without waiting for the pretties.
Cheers
Jane
Hamish Macbeth
> In article <agtlt6$o5t$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> A bit more whizz would be nice. I suspect many sites are only tested ( and
True of a lot of software products.
> It would also be nice if the artists arranged the order of download so
that
> you could get the answers/move on without waiting for the pretties.
A good point, but probably means editing the HTML code rather than using the
nice web builder programmes.
Starts pushing the task back to programmers rather than artists.
Although a utility that would take a working web site and re-order the
instructions ought to be simple enough.
All solved when you get broadband :)
David G. Bell
j.gi...@stertfarm.co.uk "Jane Gillett" wrote:
This is, alas, not entirely under the page-designer's control. But good
design will use features that can make a big difference. For images,
always give the image size, so the browser can leave space while it
shows the rest of the page. Also, include a _useful_ text description.
For a really obnoxious design, look at the web site run by Currys. Most
of the content is pictures of text, even the contact phone numbers. Now
imagine a partially-sighted user. I suspect that, if it came to the
crunch, there would be a case under some of the recent disability
legislation.
Mind you, the end result doesn't look bad, but the whole thing so
totally misses the point.
Jane Gillett
David G. Bell <db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tuesday, in article <4b56e1763...@stertfarm.co.uk>
> j.gi...@stertfarm.co.uk "Jane Gillett" wrote:
> > In article <agtlt6$o5t$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> > Hamish Macbeth <Hamish....@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >
> > > "Jane Gillett" <j.gi...@stertfarm.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:4b55d134f...@stertfarm.co.uk...
> > > > In article <agpko1$8gm$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>,>
> > > > Trouble is the artists seem to think we want to hang around while their
> > > > wonders materialise; I just want the answer to my question, not a
> > > > demonstration of how clever they are. If it's not quick I don't wait so
> > > > whatever persuasive powers they have do not come into play.
> >
> >
> > > That is because the technology is new and people are playing with the toy.
> > > It will calm down and speed and visual effectiveness will become the norm
> > > rather than whizz bang but no content.
> >
> > A bit more whizz would be nice. I suspect many sites are only tested ( and
> > demonstrated) on the machines where they were created, and where they exist
> > in cache, so the slowness of download is not apparent.
> >
> > It would also be nice if the artists arranged the order of download so that
> > you could get the answers/move on without waiting for the pretties.
> This is, alas, not entirely under the page-designer's control. But good
> design will use features that can make a big difference. For images,
> always give the image size, so the browser can leave space while it
> shows the rest of the page. Also, include a _useful_ text description.
Yes. That's the sort of thing I mean. Doesn't take much thought.
> For a really obnoxious design, look at the web site run by Currys. Most
> of the content is pictures of text, even the contact phone numbers. Now
> imagine a partially-sighted user. I suspect that, if it came to the
> crunch, there would be a case under some of the recent disability
> legislation.
> Mind you, the end result doesn't look bad,
But if it's that slow I'll never see the end result which is a situation
that Curry's ought to be concerned about.
Cheers
Jane
> but the whole thing so
> totally misses the point.
--
Jane G : j.gi...@stertfarm.co.uk : S Devon
Jane Gillett
Hamish Macbeth <Hamish....@btinternet.com> wrote:
Are we going to get broadband here? Can't even get Home Highway as we are
too far from the exchange. Farms tend to be out in the country so we are
the last to get these modern gismos.
Hamish Macbeth
"Jane Gillett" <j.gi...@stertfarm.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4b57ddfa7...@stertfarm.co.uk...
> In article <ah2vij$rka$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> > All solved when you get broadband :)
>
> Are we going to get broadband here? Can't even get Home Highway as we are
> too far from the exchange. Farms tend to be out in the country so we are
> the last to get these modern gismos.
>
I doubt it. I live in a small country town in Somerset and it isn't coming
to us, so I guess you are less likely to get it.
Satellite broadband is likely to be too expensive, unless you have some
non-farming paying activity.
I would'nt call it a modern gismo, access to broadband data highways will
become similar to the telephone and businesses without access will be
hampered. Even now I find web sites in the USA assume broadband and are
almost inpossible to view on a slow link.
Oz
>
>But if it's that slow I'll never see the end result which is a situation
>that Curry's ought to be concerned about.
Seconded.
Jane Gillett
Hamish Macbeth <Hamish....@btinternet.com> wrote:
> "Jane Gillett" <j.gi...@stertfarm.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:4b56e1763...@stertfarm.co.uk...
> > It would also be nice if the artists arranged the order of download so
> that
> > you could get the answers/move on without waiting for the pretties.
> A good point, but probably means editing the HTML code rather than using the
> nice web builder programmes.
> Starts pushing the task back to programmers rather than artists.
Doesn't have to be "programmers" if you mean by that "non-artists".
That would be as bad. I've seen some pretty incomprehensible descriptions
put out by programmers from time to time, particularly by exceptionally
clever programmers (and I'm not being in any way cynical here). Surely
we need expertise in both skills.
It means having enough knowledge to do a
competent job (in the case of a commissioned site, a job that you are
asking to be paid for).
Hamish Macbeth
> In article <ah2vij$rka$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> Doesn't have to be "programmers" if you mean by that "non-artists".
> That would be as bad. I've seen some pretty incomprehensible descriptions
> put out by programmers from time to time, particularly by exceptionally
> clever programmers (and I'm not being in any way cynical here). Surely
> we need expertise in both skills.
> It means having enough knowledge to do a
> competent job (in the case of a commissioned site, a job that you are
> asking to be paid for).
The key bit is 'a job that you are asking to be paid for' a customer
wants something which represents his business and the
skills for this are:
A good artistic sense to produce something visually pleasing in terms of
the customer's needs.
A good command of language to ensure that the site is meaningful.
That it is user friendly so that the visitor to the site stays long enough
to get the benifit of the above.
The first two are skills I would expect to see being gained through art
college the last through a degree in Software Engineering.
Since website production is something that can be effectively done in a
small business of 1 or few people it probably does not justify
have a Software Engineer on the payrole. The best option is for a
software house to produce the tool sets which manipulate the underlying
presentation layers and for the web site producer to be skilled in the use
of the tools.
An experienced web designer will no doubt take a tools produced site and
tweak key areas.
It maybe that speeding up a web site is a specialist activity in its own
right. To be most effective it has to supply feedback to the companies that
develope the web server and client software (Explorer, netscape ..) so that
encoding can efficiently do what designers want. This is an area best done
between software engineers.
This is what happens in the Game world where story writers, conventional
artists, games programmers and games utilities programmers each have a
seperate and important role to play. i.e. Do you really want the man who can
make an image of a really good character also worry about how a cutlass
thrust motion will be communicated over a network to another player?
Jane Gillett
Hamish Macbeth <Hamish....@btinternet.com> wrote:
> "Jane Gillett" <j.gi...@stertfarm.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:4b58e89ea...@stertfarm.co.uk...
> > In article <ah2vij$rka$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> > Doesn't have to be "programmers" if you mean by that "non-artists".
> > That would be as bad. I've seen some pretty incomprehensible descriptions
> > put out by programmers from time to time, particularly by exceptionally
> > clever programmers (and I'm not being in any way cynical here). Surely
> > we need expertise in both skills.
> > It means having enough knowledge to do a
> > competent job (in the case of a commissioned site, a job that you are
> > asking to be paid for).
> The key bit is 'a job that you are asking to be paid for' a customer
> wants something which represents his business and the
> skills for this are:
> A good artistic sense to produce something visually pleasing in terms of
> the customer's needs.
> A good command of language to ensure that the site is meaningful.
> That it is user friendly so that the visitor to the site stays long enough
> to get the benifit of the above.
You've omitted the skill to produce a site which gives the viewer what he
wants in a reasonable download time.
> The first two are skills I would expect to see being gained through art
> college the last through a degree in Software Engineering.
What about a good old-fashioned apprenticeship combined with part-time
study. That way you have the advantage of working in the real world while
getting a broad academic training in your subject, keeping up to date and
overcoming any bad habits a single employer may have.
I'm doing an open access course at the moment and finding that there are
cases where the answers they want would be totally <unacceptable> to a real
employer.
> Since website production is something that can be effectively done in a
> small business of 1 or few people it probably does not justify
> have a Software Engineer on the payrole. The best option is for a
> software house to produce the tool sets which manipulate the underlying
> presentation layers and for the web site producer to be skilled in the use
> of the tools.
Yes, this is undoubtedly the way it will go in many cases and it will
enable many people who could not otherwise produce a site to do so. Whether
the standard achieved is one which is good enough to form the basis of a
proefssional business is debatable. Depends on the ability of the site
producers; the good ones should know that the tools themsleves do not
<necessarily> produce good code or allow good design and take steps to
overcome this where necessary. You address this point below.
> An experienced web designer will no doubt take a tools produced site and
> tweak key areas.
> It maybe that speeding up a web site is a specialist activity in its own
> right. To be most effective it has to supply feedback to the companies that
> develope the web server and client software (Explorer, netscape ..) so that
> encoding can efficiently do what designers want. This is an area best done
> between software engineers.
I'm not thinking of this level of speeding-up. Just putting information and
decision points (where the user chooses how to proceed) come early on
before graphics, not using more graphics than necessary and putting good
legends for graphics. That will take care of most of the current problems.
> This is what happens in the Game world where story writers, conventional
> artists, games programmers and games utilities programmers each have a
> seperate and important role to play. i.e. Do you really want the man who can
> make an image of a really good character also worry about how a cutlass
> thrust motion will be communicated over a network to another player?
I'm not bothered. Provided you take care of the points I've raised I
probably won't still be around to watch the cutlass man. Those who like it
will probably wait.
Cheers
Hamish Macbeth
--
"Jane Gillett" <j.gi...@stertfarm.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4b59f1ec4...@stertfarm.co.uk...
> In article <ahdlrv$rjs$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>,
>
> > The key bit is 'a job that you are asking to be paid for' a customer
> > wants something which represents his business and the
> > skills for this are:
>
> You've omitted the skill to produce a site which gives the viewer what he
> wants in a reasonable download time.
>
That is a given. The customer has something in his mind which is content
based related to what he wants to say to his customer.
The fact it must be user friendly and quick to display is something that is
just there and he doesn't even notice he needed it.
Part of the package if web based customer service is to work.
In any case technical improvements and tools will make sites faster and
easier to optimise. If I was doing this work I would concentrate on artistic
originality as these skills will not be outdated.
> What about a good old-fashioned apprenticeship combined with part-time
> study. That way you have the advantage of working in the real world while
> getting a broad academic training in your subject, keeping up to date and
> overcoming any bad habits a single employer may have.
>
Indeed, I see this as an area where individual skills are important, mass
production of styalised work is not a benifit.
More like artists than engineers.
> I'm doing an open access course at the moment and finding that there are
> cases where the answers they want would be totally <unacceptable> to a
real
> employer.
Depends if you are producing advertising sites or putting copies of
legislation or standards on the net. One requires innovation
and style the other is mostly a mechanistic exercise.
Oz
>
>
>--
>
>
>"Jane Gillett" <j.gi...@stertfarm.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:4b59f1ec4...@stertfarm.co.uk...
>> In article <ahdlrv$rjs$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>,
>>
>> > The key bit is 'a job that you are asking to be paid for' a customer
>> > wants something which represents his business and the
>> > skills for this are:
>>
>> You've omitted the skill to produce a site which gives the viewer what he
>> wants in a reasonable download time.
>>
>
>That is a given. The customer has something in his mind which is content
>based related to what he wants to say to his customer.
Maybe. I often suspect he wants a website, without really thinking any
further.
>The fact it must be user friendly and quick to display is something that is
>just there and he doesn't even notice he needed it.
Because nobody told him, or showed him some real examples.
>Part of the package if web based customer service is to work.
I think many are for stroking the egos of web designers and client.
Usually shows how naive and poor their taste is.
>In any case technical improvements and tools will make sites faster and
>easier to optimise. If I was doing this work I would concentrate on artistic
>originality as these skills will not be outdated.
It's quite tricky producing an 'artistic' site that meets the speed and
clarity spec. It's a bit like a zen garden containing two rocks on a
gravel bed. Simple, clear, elegant and not trivial to do well.
>> What about a good old-fashioned apprenticeship combined with part-time
>> study. That way you have the advantage of working in the real world while
>> getting a broad academic training in your subject, keeping up to date and
>> overcoming any bad habits a single employer may have.
>>
> Indeed, I see this as an area where individual skills are important, mass
>production of styalised work is not a benifit.
> More like artists than engineers.
Both. Or more like an artist who properly understands his tools.
>> I'm doing an open access course at the moment and finding that there are
>> cases where the answers they want would be totally <unacceptable> to a
>real
>> employer.
>
> Depends if you are producing advertising sites or putting copies of
>legislation or standards on the net. One requires innovation
>and style the other is mostly a mechanistic exercise.
I have yet to see an advertising site that achieves it's aims.
Hamish Macbeth
--
"Oz" <O...@upthorpe.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:J+UQSQA+...@upthorpe.demon.co.uk...
> Maybe. I often suspect he wants a website, without really thinking any
> further.
Thats because everyone tells him he does, and he does'nt know enough to
ask Why?
> Because nobody told him, or showed him some real examples.
More fool him. If you buy most things tou look around see whats
available, see what other people have done, Easy on the web, you can do it
from home,
> I think many are for stroking the egos of web designers and client.
> Usually shows how naive and poor their taste is.
Probably true of much advertising, web based or not.
>
> It's quite tricky producing an 'artistic' site that meets the speed and
> clarity spec. It's a bit like a zen garden containing two rocks on a
> gravel bed. Simple, clear, elegant and not trivial to do well.
>
When the web designer market matures, those are the ones that will still
have a job.
Speed is a mostly a technical issue and will be sorted in the tools and web
servers/clients. The rest
are skills that will seperate the professional from the also rans.
> Or more like an artist who properly understands his tools.
> I have yet to see an advertising site that achieves it's aims.
Good websites are expensive to produce and need constant maintenance.
Broken threads or not integrated into the business system.
Too many sites carry lots of pictures but are thin on real information.
Often my primary reason to visit a site is to confirm details, holiday from
the booking invoice etc. I often find this cannot be done. Often I can't
find a hook to a real person such as actual postal address or 'phone number.
I don't see the point of 'phoning a representative for them to log into a
computer to find what I want. Direct access to my details is what I often
want.
Some sites are good for this DHL allow you to follow parcels through the
system. Sometimes you need to confirm a parcel has cleared customs etc.
Phoning the DHL office is wasting peoples time, logging into their website
to do it annoys no-one.
In the end my judgement of a good site is how long it takes me to get from
home page to the nugget of information I want. Often this can be a circular
and torturous route.
My least favourite feature is the site that insists you register with them
remember a password and fill in lots of personel data before it will let you
at the information. The concept of "show me the offer, If I like it I'll buy
it, then I'll tell you who I am" seems to escape them.
Jim Webster
>
> Often my primary reason to visit a site is to confirm details, holiday
from
> the booking invoice etc. I often find this cannot be done. Often I
can't
> find a hook to a real person such as actual postal address or 'phone
number.
surprising how often these small technical details are missed
>
> My least favourite feature is the site that insists you register
with them
> remember a password and fill in lots of personel data before it will
let you
> at the information. The concept of "show me the offer, If I like it
I'll buy
> it, then I'll tell you who I am" seems to escape them.
amen to that! Also why they expect me to fill my hard drive with cookies
is beyond me.
David G. Bell
j...@everyone.knows.where.by.now "Jim Webster" wrote:
> Hamish Macbeth <Hamish....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:ahj202$3ff$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > Often my primary reason to visit a site is to confirm details, holiday
> from
> > the booking invoice etc. I often find this cannot be done. Often I
> can't
> > find a hook to a real person such as actual postal address or 'phone
> number.
>
> surprising how often these small technical details are missed
Or, it seems, deliberately hidden...
Interesting thought -- if they're expecting you to buy stuff, what's the
legality of hiding real-world location? You might assume that a .uk is
subject to British law and taxation, but not all .com domains are in the
USA.
> >
> > My least favourite feature is the site that insists you register
> with them
> > remember a password and fill in lots of personel data before it will
> let you
> > at the information. The concept of "show me the offer, If I like it
> I'll buy
> > it, then I'll tell you who I am" seems to escape them.
>
> amen to that! Also why they expect me to fill my hard drive with cookies
> is beyond me.
I'm not totally averse to cookies, but I only return cookies to the site
which issued them, and that can break a lot of things. Some of that use
might be semi-understandable, but it makes me suspicious that it can
happen without warning or explanation.
Luckily, I keep my data in a biscuit tin.
--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
Oz
>
>
>--
>
>
>"Oz" <O...@upthorpe.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:J+UQSQA+...@upthorpe.demon.co.uk...
>
>> Maybe. I often suspect he wants a website, without really thinking any
>> further.
>
> Thats because everyone tells him he does, and he does'nt know enough to
>ask Why?
Indeed.
>> Because nobody told him, or showed him some real examples.
> More fool him. If you buy most things tou look around see whats
>available, see what other people have done, Easy on the web, you can do it
>from home,
Most people don;t LOOK at what they are seeing, particularly when they
look at (say) the curry's site and think (mindlessly) that that is the
way it should be done.
>> I think many are for stroking the egos of web designers and client.
>> Usually shows how naive and poor their taste is.
>
> Probably true of much advertising, web based or not.
Maybe.
>> It's quite tricky producing an 'artistic' site that meets the speed and
>> clarity spec. It's a bit like a zen garden containing two rocks on a
>> gravel bed. Simple, clear, elegant and not trivial to do well.
>
> When the web designer market matures, those are the ones that will still
>have a job.
>Speed is a mostly a technical issue and will be sorted in the tools and web
>servers/clients.
Maybe, maybe not. Bandwidth is always limited somewhere, often (usually)
it's not my modem connection that causes the slowdown but the other
site's surver.
>The rest
>are skills that will seperate the professional from the also rans.
One hopes.
>> Or more like an artist who properly understands his tools.
>
>> I have yet to see an advertising site that achieves it's aims.
>
> Good websites are expensive to produce and need constant maintenance.
I don;t agree. They need regular maintanance, but need not be costly to
produce. Zen simplicity, remember.
>Broken threads or not integrated into the business system.
> Too many sites carry lots of pictures but are thin on real information.
>Often my primary reason to visit a site is to confirm details, holiday from
>the booking invoice etc. I often find this cannot be done.
Absolutely.
>Often I can't
>find a hook to a real person such as actual postal address or 'phone number.
Unbelievable but common.
> I don't see the point of 'phoning a representative for them to log into a
>computer to find what I want. Direct access to my details is what I often
>want.
I want a product. A good website with contact and product details is
enough.
> Some sites are good for this DHL allow you to follow parcels through the
>system. Sometimes you need to confirm a parcel has cleared customs etc.
>Phoning the DHL office is wasting peoples time, logging into their website
>to do it annoys no-one.
Utterly.
> In the end my judgement of a good site is how long it takes me to get from
>home page to the nugget of information I want. Often this can be a circular
>and torturous route.
Usually, and needlessly.
> My least favourite feature is the site that insists you register with them
>remember a password and fill in lots of personel data before it will let you
>at the information.
I simply log straight off.
>The concept of "show me the offer, If I like it I'll buy
>it, then I'll tell you who I am" seems to escape them.
Indeed.
Oz
>amen to that! Also why they expect me to fill my hard drive with cookies
>is beyond me.
I run with cookies off.
Jill
> Hamish Macbeth writes
> >> I think many are for stroking the egos of web designers and client.
> >> Usually shows how naive and poor their taste is.
> >
> > Probably true of much advertising, web based or not.
>
> Maybe.
> >> Or more like an artist who properly understands his tools.
their customers needs
nor search engine optimisation which will allow those customers to find the
site in the first place
Flash and entry pages should be banned - they are nothing more than
massaging the artists ego and do absolutely zilch for the efficacy of a web
site to inform and engage a potential cusomter
> >
> >> I have yet to see an advertising site that achieves it's aims.
> >
> > Good websites are expensive to produce and need constant maintenance.
they are cheap once you have taken the time to learn some html
Granted the more interesting stuff you add the better your presence and
likely returns
but its not hard
>
> I don;t agree. They need regular maintanance, but need not be costly to
> produce. Zen simplicity, remember.
>
> >Broken threads or not integrated into the business system.
> > Too many sites carry lots of pictures but are thin on real information.
Both are better
The advantage of the web over other sorts of advertising is the ability to
bring good pictures to your customer in a very cheap format
> >Often my primary reason to visit a site is to confirm details, holiday
from
> >the booking invoice etc. I often find this cannot be done.
>
> Absolutely.
>
> >Often I can't
> >find a hook to a real person such as actual postal address or 'phone
number.
>
> Unbelievable but common.
totally agree with both
>
> > I don't see the point of 'phoning a representative for them to log into
a
> >computer to find what I want. Direct access to my details is what I often
> >want.
>
> I want a product. A good website with contact and product details is
> enough.
and pictures and prices
>
> > My least favourite feature is the site that insists you register with
them
> >remember a password and fill in lots of personel data before it will let
you
> >at the information.
>
> I simply log straight off.
ditto
--
Jill Bowis
http://www.poultryscotland.co.uk http://www.henhouses.co.uk
http://www.domesticducks.co.uk http://www.poultry-books.co.uk
http://www.kintaline.plus.com/welshcottage
Oz
>"Oz" <O...@upthorpe.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:dFWl8oA0...@upthorpe.demon.co.uk...
>> Hamish Macbeth writes
>> >> I think many are for stroking the egos of web designers and client.
>> >> Usually shows how naive and poor their taste is.
>> >
>> > Probably true of much advertising, web based or not.
>>
>> Maybe.
>I would say much more in web design than other sorts
>> >> Or more like an artist who properly understands his tools.
>very few web designers seem to have much concept of eitehr the customers of
>their customers needs
>nor search engine optimisation which will allow those customers to find the
>site in the first place
>Flash and entry pages should be banned - they are nothing more than
>massaging the artists ego and do absolutely zilch for the efficacy of a web
>site to inform and engage a potential cusomter
>> >
>> >> I have yet to see an advertising site that achieves it's aims.
>> >
>> > Good websites are expensive to produce and need constant maintenance.
>not at all
>they are cheap once you have taken the time to learn some html
>Granted the more interesting stuff you add the better your presence and
>likely returns
>but its not hard
I agree with everything you have said.
Irritating....
Jim Webster
> Jim Webster writes
>
> >amen to that! Also why they expect me to fill my hard drive with
cookies
> >is beyond me.
>
> I run with cookies off.
I have Atgard set to tell me who wants cookies, sometimes I accept them
if I have to log on to a site (BCMS being an example) mostly I refuse
them but it is interesting to see just who asks and how often
--
Jim Webster
"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"
'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'
>
David P
wrote:
>Jim Webster writes
>
>>amen to that! Also why they expect me to fill my hard drive with cookies
>>is beyond me.
>
>I run with cookies off.
>
I run with them on but set to delete all on close down. Works a treat
- you can read all the site, even those bits that sometimes ask you to
accept cookies repeatedly. The trick is manageemnt I suppose; you
have your way to manage them and I have mine.
--
David
Visit http://www.farm-direct.co.uk for your local farmgate food supplies.
FAQ's, Glossary, Farming Year and more!
Jane Gillett
Oz <O...@upthorpe.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Both. Or more like an artist who properly understands his tools.
Seconded but I'd also like him to show understanding of the job the site is
to do.