Depressing environment stuff
Jymn
interesting conversations :~)
"Halla" <ha...@drunkenbastards.spam.com> wrote in message
news:8qrj60dpurh8rqo92...@4ax.com...
> Can any of the farmer types tell us if it really is unavoidable?
>
>
>
> "Ancient apple orchards face bonfire as blight of farm payouts bites
>
> Growers plan to dig up rural treasures as payment scheme removes
> incentives
>
> John Vidal
> Monday March 29, 2004
> The Guardian
>
> Donkey Orchard on the edge of Kingsbury Episcopi in Somerset has been
> in Rodney Male's family for almost 200 years and the two-hectare field
> of ancient cider apple trees with evocative names such as Old Morgan
> sweets, Kingston Black and Newton Wonders, would in many countries be
> classed as a national treasure.
>
> The orchard's crooked, hollow-trunked trees have great bushes of
> mistletoe in their high branches and many house jackdaws, woodpeckers
> and rooks.
> Lambs and ponies graze under the trees, which in a few weeks' time
> will be a blaze of soft pink and white blossoms.
>
> But the exquisite old English orchard, celebrated since Celtic times
> and promoted by modern governments and tourist boards, is under a
> threat which some rank as the ecological equivalent of the dissolution
> of the monasteries.
>
> This autumn hundreds of orchard owners around Britain will reluctantly
> call in contractors to grub up and burn their trees. Donkey Orchard
> will fall, so will its only slightly less venerable neighbours Boar's
> Field and Orchard Anne.
>
> Mr Male and the other growers fully appreciate the environmental,
> cultural and landscape value of their trees but say they have got no
> option because of the government's proposed farm payment scheme. If
> felled before January 1 orchards will be classed as "farmland" and be
> worth an automatic yearly £340 a hectare, in perpetuity; but any left
> standing will be worth no more than the land value and, crucially,
> will not be considered for farm payments.
>
> "I can't afford not to rip them out," said Mr Male, whose great
> grandfather planted Donkey Orchard in the early 1800s. "Just one apple
> tree in a field may class it as an orchard, and that will mean no
> payment, ever. People like me will clear out all the old, less
> productive orchards. Plenty are thinking of it. We're obviously not
> going to risk keeping them."
>
> The scheme, claimed by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural
> Affairs (Defra) to reward environmental good practice rather than
> production, will be paid according to acreage in England. But although
> people growing sugar beet, potato and asparagus - crops with no great
> environmental benefit - will be rewarded, uniquely in Europe Britain
> has chosen to exclude orchards.
Sounds very typical of UK implementations of EU directives, if the
situation isn't fubared make it so.
>
> Apple, plum and cherry growers, who have never received state
> subsidies, say they are less worried about the acreage payments than
> the loss in capital value of their farms and smallholdings.
>
> "We will see the biggest bonfires since foot and mouth disease, only
> they'll smell better," said John Thatcher, who runs Thatchers' cider
> works in Shepton Mallet and buys in thousands of tonnes of apples a
> year.
> "Orchards have to be rotated. But we won't get any payments when we
> grow other crops on the same land."
>
> Julian Temperley, owner of 150 acres (60 hectares) of traditional
> cider apple orchards and Britain's largest cider distillery, in
> Kingsbury Episcopi, said: "What's the government got against old
> orchards? This is going to be an environmental, landscape and wildlife
> disaster."
>
> Simon Russell, spokesman for the National Association of Cider Makers
> and Matthew Clark's, Britain's second largest commercial cider makers,
> said:
> "There is a real risk that people with older orchards will now grub
> them up."
>
> The potential loss of the old orchards will add to the vertiginous
> decline of fruit growing in Britain over the past 50 years. From an
> estimated 80,000 hectares given over to orchards in 1945, there are
> now just 20,000 left and perhaps 1,000-2,000 hectares of traditionally
> managed ones grazed by animals for six months of the year.
>
> In the past five years, according to Defra, more than 10% of all
> British orchards have been lost. From 1,500 registered apple and pear
> growers in 1987, there are now just 500. Counties such as Essex,
> Cornwall and Kent - the latter once known as the "garden of England"
> for its orchards - have lost up to 90% of their fruit trees.
I wonder how many varieties have become extinct in that period,
certainly many of the apples I remember have become at the very best
elusive.
>
> At least 60% of all orchards were lost in the past 30 years largely
> because supermarkets preferred to buy just one or two varieties in
> bulk from France, the US and New Zealand. "The price of apples has
> hardly risen in 10 years.
> There are now just five commercial apple farms left in the whole
> south-west," said William Hebditch, of New Cross farm in South
> Petherton, Somerset.
>
> The loss of one old orchard can mean the extinction of an apple
> variety, said Sue Clifford, of Common Ground. "You don't just lose
> trees. You lose the recipes, the songs, the work, the festivals, the
> landscape, and all the wisdom gathered over generations of how you
> grow them."
>
> The apple is Britain's national fruit. The Celts worshipped it,
> Glastonbury was called Avalon, "the Isle of Apples", every cottage had
> a tree or two, and for generations farmworkers were paid in cider.
> Britain's national apple register lists more than 6,000 varieties of
> English apples, some, it is thought, local to just a single parish or
> even a farm, and all developed to grow well in particular soil
> conditions.
>
> But according to a Friends of the Earth survey, only 38% of the apples
> sold last year in Tesco and Asda, the country's biggest chains, were
> British, while convenience stores scored lower, with 27%.
>
> "Buyers want lorry-loads of the same product, the same size, same
> price, week in, week out, which, with our traditional English
> varieties, is very difficult to do," said John Breach, chairman of the
> British Independent Fruit Growers Association.
>
> Mr Temperley thinks it is not too late to alter the payment scheme and
> avoid felling. "Safeguarding the orchards would cost perhaps a million
> pounds, about 0.01% of the total agriculture package. I can point to
> 50 acres near Kingsbury alone which will be felled this autumn - the
> most traditional orchards left in Britain. They harbour wildlife, give
> employment and are far more interesting in every way than grassland.
> The county will be a poorer place without them."
>
> Yesterday the government said it was taking the issue up with the
> European commission. "We are aware of the concerns and are in
> discussion with the commission and with fruit growers," said a
> spokesman for Defra.
>
> Core facts History of UK's favourite fruit
>
> ·Apples originated in the Middle East more than 4,000 years ago
>
> ·The Greeks and Romans referred to apples as symbols of love and
> beauty.
> When the Romans invaded England they brought methods of cultivating
> apples with them.
>
> ·The Celtic word for apple, abhall, persists in many placenames, and
> some towns and cities have associations with fruit trees. Norwich was
> described in Tudor times as "either a city in an orchard or an orchard
> in a city".
>
> ·There was a demise in apple growing from the 13th century but this
> was reversed by Henry VIII, who instructed his fruiterer, Richard
> Harris, to establish the first large-scale orchards at Teynham, Kent,
> and to scour the known world for the best varieties.
>
> ·The Victorian explorers found new varieties, and more than 6,000
> varieties have been recorded growing in England.
>
> ·Roughly one in three apples sold in Britain is homegrown.
> Supermarkets sell 70% of all apples in the UK. Many supermarkets sell
> about eight varieties - double the range they had on their shelves
> five years ago."
Is there a method for challenging DEFRA decisions before it is too late,
or is this a done deal that we'll live to regret?
Jymn
Oz
>Cross posted to uba in the hope of additional input and more
>interesting conversations :~)
>
Unlikely there are any left.
>> Donkey Orchard on the edge of Kingsbury Episcopi in Somerset has been
>> in Rodney Male's family for almost 200 years and the two-hectare field
>> of ancient cider apple trees with evocative names such as Old Morgan
>> sweets, Kingston Black and Newton Wonders, would in many countries be
>> classed as a national treasure.
Two ha gets so little in terms of subsidy, and will be eligible for none
anyway, being in apples, for 5-10 years that I doubt that is the reason.
5ac of apples should produce 100-200 TONS (IIRC) and (IIRC) the subsidy
is about 100/ac so he is saying his 100T of apples nets him less than
500 quid or about 5/T.
This may well be, but says more about the margins between him and the
consumer than anything else. Consider 1T is 2240lbs so if he got 1p/lb
return, that would be 23/T or some 2300 income or 5x the general
subsidy.
Mind you there are probably few reading here who would even consider
doing all the required work for 5ac of appletrees for 2300/annum.
>> Mr Male and the other growers fully appreciate the environmental,
>> cultural and landscape value of their trees but say they have got no
>> option because of the government's proposed farm payment scheme. If
>> felled before January 1 orchards will be classed as "farmland" and be
>> worth an automatic yearly £340 a hectare, in perpetuity; but any left
>> standing will be worth no more than the land value and, crucially,
>> will not be considered for farm payments.
And even more crucially nobody wants to pay the pittance extra for the
apples that would make them worthwhile. This is entirely the fault of
the consumer and the supermarkets and not that of the farmer, the EC or
even (astonishingly) defra.
>> The potential loss of the old orchards will add to the vertiginous
>> decline of fruit growing in Britain over the past 50 years. From an
>> estimated 80,000 hectares given over to orchards in 1945, there are
>> now just 20,000 left and perhaps 1,000-2,000 hectares of traditionally
>> managed ones grazed by animals for six months of the year.
In order to avoid being trashed by supermarket buyers at least some
commercial applegrowers sell their produce in the big dutch vegetable
market. Despite the significant addition to the haulage they do get a
fair(er) price.
--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
DEMON address no longer in use.
Oz
Errata: 50-100T production.
>5ac of apples should produce 100-200 TONS (IIRC) and (IIRC) the subsidy
>is about 100/ac so he is saying his 100T of apples nets him less than
>500 quid or about 5/T.
--
Jim Webster
"Jymn" <urpp...@jymn.net> wrote in message news:c4ed5a$2ibipv$1@ID->
Oz covered the economics of production so I'll skip this bit
Is there a method for challenging DEFRA decisions before it is too late,
> or is this a done deal that we'll live to regret?
>
Actually this is an EU decision and Defra couldn't do anything anyway.
Except that to really twist the knife this is a reesult of the CAP reform
process which stops putting money into production and rescues the 3rd world
from subsidised imports.
Unfortunately for orchards, government and public don't actually care enough
to pay to maintain them properly. Looking at the orchard, given that there
is obviously no profitable market for the fruit (and why do people want
orchards producing fruit that obviously no one wants to buy at an economic
price) so the logic of this is that they go and we continue to buy our
apples as cheaply as possible off the world market
Jim Webster
>
> Jymn
>
>
Wood Avens
<J...@0geespamwerve.jm.oo.net> wrote:
>Actually this is an EU decision and Defra couldn't do anything anyway.
You're sure about that? The Guardian reportwhich Halla posted says
"although people growing sugar beet, potato and asparagus - crops with
no great environmental benefit - will be rewarded, uniquely in Europe
Britain has chosen to exclude orchards" - suggesting to me that this
was Defra's choice rather than an EU decision.
--
Wood Avens
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
Jim Webster
"Wood Avens" <wood...@askjennison.com> wrote in message
news:duvl60lp3limnbu2f...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:02:37 +0100, "Jim Webster"
> <J...@0geespamwerve.jm.oo.net> wrote:
>
> >Actually this is an EU decision and Defra couldn't do anything anyway.
>
> You're sure about that? The Guardian reportwhich Halla posted says
> "although people growing sugar beet, potato and asparagus - crops with
> no great environmental benefit - will be rewarded, uniquely in Europe
> Britain has chosen to exclude orchards" - suggesting to me that this
> was Defra's choice rather than an EU decision.
>
each member state interprets the regulations within limits set down by
Europe. The EU allowed a choice of payments made on a historical basis, or
on a regional basis. Defra chose a modified regional basis for England, but
Scotland and Wales will be paid on a historical basis. This probably means
that milk production will, to an extent, migrate to these two areas.
But while Defra had the choice of system, once it has made that choice it
then has to stick with the rules that go with that choice. So I suspect the
orchards come under that particular category, as most member states have
shunned regional and gone for basically historical, (although some have put
of decoupling as long as possible)
One of the interesting aspects of defra chosing regional is that we now need
rules for putting grass into set-aside. Because of the EU regulations, if
you chose regional then not only do certain crops not get supported, but
all land gets included for setaside.
As set aside was brought in to cut the production of oilseeds and grain,
just how setting aside grass land achieves this is unclear, but whenever
defra has asked, the EU has pointed out that if they don't like it they can
chose historical like the Scots and Welsh
Actually what has to be remembered is that orchards never got subsidy
anyway, so they are not exactly being denied something they once had.So they
are no worse off than they were. I suspect the real problem is that cider
orchards aren't economically viable any more
Jim Webster
Perplexed Seal
"Jim Webster"
> I suspect the real problem is that cider
> orchards aren't economically viable any more
> Jim Webster
Without getting into the weeds of the discussion, I had a lengthy and
complex discussion which said pretty much this formulating on my way home
from work this evening. Didn't post it because Jymn had x-posted when I
flashed up my gadget.
At this the debate turns into 'stakeholder interest', which I'm not in the
mood for. I've done enough of the consultant carry on today. Business
Process Re-Engineering anyone?
Alistair (posting from URP)
--
See the False as False
The True as True
Look into your heart
And follow your nature
Sakyamuni Buddha c 500BCE
Tim Lamb
<J...@0geespamwerve.jm.oo.net> writes
>Actually this is an EU decision and Defra couldn't do anything anyway.
>Except that to really twist the knife this is a reesult of the CAP reform
>process which stops putting money into production and rescues the 3rd world
>from subsidised imports.
>Unfortunately for orchards, government and public don't actually care enough
>to pay to maintain them properly. Looking at the orchard, given that there
>is obviously no profitable market for the fruit (and why do people want
>orchards producing fruit that obviously no one wants to buy at an economic
>price) so the logic of this is that they go and we continue to buy our
>apples as cheaply as possible off the world market
There is a consultation document on the DEFRA site regarding *cross
compliance implementation*> I don't recall orchards being mentioned but
the general tone is one of getting permission before ploughing up old
grassland, removing hedgerows etc. You are stuck with any remaining
stone walls!
regards
--
Tim Lamb
David G. Bell
<c4fdit$2h4c0l$1...@ID-187077.news.uni-berlin.de>
alistair.ra...@btopenworld.com "Perplexed Seal"
wrote:
> "Jim Webster"
>
> > I suspect the real problem is that cider
> > orchards aren't economically viable any more
> > Jim Webster
>
> Without getting into the weeds of the discussion, I had a lengthy and
> complex discussion which said pretty much this formulating on my way home
> from work this evening. Didn't post it because Jymn had x-posted when I
> flashed up my gadget.
>
> At this the debate turns into 'stakeholder interest', which I'm not in the
> mood for. I've done enough of the consultant carry on today. Business
> Process Re-Engineering anyone?
You can't get the wood, you know.
Isn't there some quirk of the law affecting the excise duty rate for
cider? That may be a UK-specific disadvantage.
--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
"History shows that the Singularity started when Sir Tim Berners-Lee
was bitten by a radioactive spider."
Andrew Hickley
> commercial applegrowers sell their produce in the big dutch vegetable
> market. Despite the significant addition to the haulage they do get a
> fair(er) price.
I vividly remember a conversation with a Kent apple grower (this was 10
years ago). He was in the process of packing it in and grubbing it up.
He was fed up with trainee managers at supermarket distribution centres,
fresh from a business studies degree, rejecting his fruit because of
minor size variation or an occasional blemish and couldn't afford to
carry on. I found that deeply depressing.
Warning: non sequitur follows.
And let's not worry too much about the carbon generated by shipping
apples from England to Holland and back to England. Grrr. One way in
which the food production industry of the UK might survive is if a tax
is applied to carbon generated by the transport of goods. Fruit flown to
the UK from Israel generates 40 times the carbon generated by fruit
grown locally...
Oz
>> In order to avoid being trashed by supermarket buyers at least some
>> commercial applegrowers sell their produce in the big dutch vegetable
>> market. Despite the significant addition to the haulage they do get a
>> fair(er) price.
>
>I vividly remember a conversation with a Kent apple grower (this was 10
>years ago). He was in the process of packing it in and grubbing it up.
>He was fed up with trainee managers at supermarket distribution centres,
>fresh from a business studies degree, rejecting his fruit because of
>minor size variation or an occasional blemish
No, this happens when they have over-ordered and don't want what they
contracted to receive. It also happens if they can buy the same cheaper
elsewhere.
>and couldn't afford to
>carry on. I found that deeply depressing.
If those that have power misuse it, then this is the result.
It doesn't bother the trainee manager, they will be on detergents next
month.
>Warning: non sequitur follows.
>
>And let's not worry too much about the carbon generated by shipping
>apples from England to Holland and back to England. Grrr.
Its the cost of being treated fairly.
>One way in
>which the food production industry of the UK might survive is if a tax
>is applied to carbon generated by the transport of goods. Fruit flown to
>the UK from Israel generates 40 times the carbon generated by fruit
>grown locally...
And don't even *think* how much zimbabwe green beans comes to ....
Jymn
<snip>
> >He was fed up with trainee managers at supermarket distribution
centres,
> >fresh from a business studies degree, rejecting his fruit because of
> >minor size variation or an occasional blemish and couldn't afford to
> >carry on. I found that deeply depressing.
>
> graduate a great number of the apples in rapid succession, really. :-/
A reverse feed by any chance?
> >
> >Warning: non sequitur follows.
> >
> >And let's not worry too much about the carbon generated by shipping
> >apples from England to Holland and back to England. Grrr.
>
> Hmm.
>
> >One way in
> >which the food production industry of the UK might survive is if a
tax
> >is applied to carbon generated by the transport of goods.
>
> Applied to whom? Or who? I'm not entirely sure.
Pay the farmer a fair price for the goods, tax every mile of
transportation, charge levied at every point the goods change ownership.
The original price plus intermediaries profit margins together with the
taxes becomes the selling price.
The tax could easily reflect the environmentally friendliness of the
transport at each stage, so that a horse and cart gets penalised less
than a 747.
At the end of the day taxes are always paid by the consumer
This would hopefully have the advantage of making imports less desirable
and local produce more in demand.
Since most UK consumers seem to buy on price then hopefully this would
redress part of the balance.
Jymn
Oz
>The tax could easily reflect the environmentally friendliness of the
>transport at each stage, so that a horse and cart gets penalised less
>than a 747.
I'm not at all sure that a horse and cart is more environmentally
friendly than a jumbo in pollution and environmental costs per ton-mile.
sw
> Jymn <urpp...@jymn.net> writes
> >The tax could easily reflect the environmentally friendliness of the
> >transport at each stage, so that a horse and cart gets penalised less
> >than a 747.
>
> I'm not at all sure that a horse and cart is more environmentally
> friendly than a jumbo in pollution and environmental costs per ton-mile.
You're angling for a bridge, aren't you? :-)
regards
sarah
--
Think of it as evolution in action.
Andrew Hickley
> It doesn't bother the trainee manager, they will be on detergents next
> month.
And isn't *that* the crux of the problem. Like it or not, supermarkets
are now the centre of the UK food industry. So, what sort of
introduction do graduate trainees [1] get to food production. Does
anyone here ever have contact with trainees from supermarkets? Just
wondered?
> And don't even *think* how much zimbabwe green beans comes to ....
Sooner or later people *will* begin to worry, but the campaign is going
to be long and dull...
[1] Shortly to become a meaningless phrase: all supermarket employees
will be graduates within the very near future at present rates of
"progress".
Oz
>> If those that have power misuse it, then this is the result.
>> It doesn't bother the trainee manager, they will be on detergents next
>> month.
>
>And isn't *that* the crux of the problem. Like it or not, supermarkets
>are now the centre of the UK food industry.
Dunno about centre but they do control pricing both for primary
producers, the whole food chain and pricing to the consumer.
With respect to another thread note that just saying 'cheaper here';
'prices down'; 'best value' long enough will convince most people this
is so.
This is despite it being known that 'indicator products', the very
limited number of products the consumer notes the price of, are
regularly sold at below the purchase price simply to convince consumers
of the splendid deals they are getting. In the mean time all the other
prices in the shop can be jacked up without anyone noticing .....
>So, what sort of
>introduction do graduate trainees [1] get to food production.
Er, um, absolutely none.
Ditto understanding financial implications ...
>Does
>anyone here ever have contact with trainees from supermarkets? Just
>wondered?
Son's flatmate (physics) just joined....
>> And don't even *think* how much zimbabwe green beans comes to ....
>
>Sooner or later people *will* begin to worry, but the campaign is going
>to be long and dull...
Long, dull and un-newsworthy
if the supermarkets have anything to do with it.
>[1] Shortly to become a meaningless phrase: all supermarket employees
>will be graduates within the very near future at present rates of
>"progress".
Very likely. A degree in shelf stacking anyone?
Oz
>The message <23eo60houh6v91jm9...@4ax.com>
>from Halla <ha...@drunkenbastards.spam.com> contains these words:
>
>> I wonder how much of the small greengrocer's range is UK produced?
>> Another worry, *sigh*
>
>Brassicas : Domestic/France/Spain/Holland
Actually we can produce better brassicas more cheaply than these
countries, except out-of season (eg winter cauli). Unfortunately the
major producers got screwed by the supermarkets and most have stopped
producing. This is one reason for the rise in prices.
>Courgettes: mainly Spain
Beware. Some UK producers now do a deal with spanish co-ops because laws
of contract are different there to here (ie they cannot break contracts
with impunity). I regularly saw (last year and year before) spanish co-
op boxes, but a blackink stamp on the box was 'produce of GB, with a
very large well known producer name'.
>Mushrooms: mainly Eire, some domestic
Organic polish, where the regulations are well policed....
>Garlic: Spain/Chile/France. tiny qty.domestic
Actually a large chunk is grown in the UK, particularly IOW.
Major french producer is in fact english.
>Turnips: Domestic
>Carrots: Domestic
>Celery: Spain & Domestic.
Leeks domestic.
David P
They don't get away that easily <g>
================================
In article <200404050...@zetnet.co.uk>, stu...@zetnet.co.uk
says...
> The message <23eo60houh6v91jm9...@4ax.com>
> from Halla <ha...@drunkenbastards.spam.com> contains these words:
>
> > I wonder how much of the small greengrocer's range is UK produced?
> > Another worry, *sigh*
>
> Potatoes out of season: Jersey/Cyprus/Egypt/Morocco
> Potatoes in season & out : domestic (maincrop out of season)
> Brassicas : Domestic/France/Spain/Holland
> Tomatoes: All imported other than during two of the summer months.
> Mainly Dutch but some Canary&Spanish. Spanish increacing.
> Cucumbers: domestic (grown mainly by naturalised Italian outfits.)
> Capsicum: Holland, some Spanish.
> Courgettes: mainly Spain
> Salad crops: some domestic, but mainly Spain
> Spring onions: Chile/Egypt/Israel/Spain, some domestic
> Maincrop onions: Domestic/ Poland/Chile
> Melons: mainly Spanish/ Israel
> Avocado Pears: Mainly Israel
> Apples: France/South Africa/New Zealand, small qty. domestic.
> Mushrooms: mainly Eire, some domestic
> Oranges: Israel/South Africa/Spain
> Grapefruit: Israel/South Africa/Spain/USA
> Strawberries out of season: Spain/Israel/USA
> Watercress: Domestic
> Runner&French beans: mainly Kenya, some domestic in season.
> Mange-tout peas: Kenya
> Peas in pod: Domestic, limited availablity in season.
> Broad beans: Domestic, only available in season
> Garlic: Spain/Chile/France. tiny qty.domestic
> Grapes: Mostly Spain/South Africa/India
> Turnips: Domestic
> Carrots: Domestic
> Celery: Spain & Domestic.
>
> Not an exhaustive list; some fruits and vegetables that are obviously
> tropical are not mentioned, nor canned produce.
>
--
David
Visit http://www.farm-direct.co.uk for your local farmgate food supplies.
FAQ's, Glossary, Farming Year and more!
Jim Webster
"Hamish" <ham...@buddenbrooks.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c4tg8f$om1$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> "Gerald L R Stubbs" <stu...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:200404060...@zetnet.co.uk...
> >. France,
> > Germany and the UK have financed that amazing transformation.
>
>
> With the addition of many more poor economies into the EC and Germany
not
> the power house economy it once was
> I guess we can look forward to much less subsidiese in the future. This
must
> favour local production in each country.
Not necessarily. It depends on whether the cost of production is low enough
to cover the costs of transport. A lot of this depends on what production
methods are allowed. Cheap labour, GM crops, hormone and antibiotic growth
promoters are all ways of keeping your production costs down. Thailand and
Brazil are therefore big producers/exporters of chicken or pork
Jim Webster
Jymn
> Reposted to bring URP back into the thread.
>
> They don't get away that easily <g>
Thanks David, thread being followed with interest.
Other than farmers markets, what do folk regard as the best ways to buy
seasonal British (or even beter from my point of view locally) grown
produce?
Jymn
Jill
Mail order?
There are a growing number on line and books like Rick Steins producers
directory is crammed with them as well as lots of other local ones
Farm shops - but take your time to chat to the folks and find out what it
and isn't local there
--
regards
Jill Bowis
Pure bred utility chickens and ducks; Housing; Books, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Holidays in Scotland and Wales
http://www.kintaline.co.uk
>
> Jymn
>
>