TurboGears Book and Ultimate DVD
Lord Galrion
is a lot of good stuff in it and it has helped a lot. However, I am
pretty much new to TG and web design and come from a PHP background. I
know python relatively well but find TG confusing. The book parts that
I really didn't like so much was the fact that the advanced TG
tutorial comes way before the introduction to kid and SQLObject. The
bookmark example was fairly good, but there were a lot a times were it
became vague. It left me with a feeling that I did not understand how
things work.
If wanted, I can write a more specific feedback to the chapters I have
read and don't understand, if that helps. Being that I am not an
expert, and I feel that I am a step or two away from being a Newb, I
figure I would be the prime target for this book.
I'm sorry guys, I don't want to be negative but I want to be honest. I
have purchased the TG Ultimate video and was very excited, but again
there really was not much in the 5hrs to help a newb. Kevin is very
smart and goes through things so fast assuming that everybody has his
knowlege and expertise. A lot of the people who want to enjoy and use
TG are not at Kevin's expert level. Just a suggestion.. Forget about
the 20 minute wiki, slow down... explain things for the newb.
Another note, which I think is very important!!!
The only book on the market for TG is going to focuse on SQLObject and
kid! Yet, SQLAlchemy and Genshi are going to be default in the next
version of TG, and I am guessing by the time the book comes out. Don't
you feel that is unfair? Or kinda silly?
Also, I do have a request and would be willing to help. TG docs seem
to be very unorganized on the website. Some are in the documantation,
some are in Trac and If there was one page to sum that all up, or at
least point people to trac etc.. what about the fact that there is
planet.turbogears.com? I didn't know that until I google'd for
something and saw it.
anyhow, maybe it's just me. Still thanks for an awesome product!
Nevyn
Jorge Vargas
>
>
> The only book on the market for TG is going to focuse on SQLObject and
> kid! Yet, SQLAlchemy and Genshi are going to be default in the next
> version of TG, and I am guessing by the time the book comes out. Don't
> you feel that is unfair? Or kinda silly?
>
be replaced. I'm not sure if they are plans to add extra chapters. as
for kid to genshi they are totally equal (in the interface of course)
with the exception of only 2 functions.
> Also, I do have a request and would be willing to help. TG docs seem
> to be very unorganized on the website. Some are in the documantation,
> some are in Trac and If there was one page to sum that all up, or at
> least point people to trac
I believe your refering to docs.turbogears.org vrs
trac.turbogears/wiki, if you take a look the wiki is closed and on the
front page it tells you to go to docs site. if you find anything on
trac that's interesting, please contribute migrating it to
http://docs.turbogears.org/1.0/RoughDocs except for outdated docs most
stuff should be already duplicated on the docs site.
also you may want to register to turboge...@googlegroups.com
> etc.. what about the fact that there is
> planet.turbogears.com?
http://planet.turbogears.org/ :)
> I didn't know that until I google'd for
> something and saw it.
>
umm I never though of that I just went to http://www.turbogears.org/
and there is this tiny link near the mailing lists.
maybe you miss it or someone upgraded the site to make you look bad :D
Lee McFadden
>
> maybe you miss it or someone upgraded the site to make you look bad :D
>
Hehe, nope, the link has always been there, even back in the days of
the original green site. :)
--
Lee McFadden
blog: http://www.splee.co.uk
work: http://fireflisystems.com
Christopher Arndt
> On 11/7/06, Lord Galrion <nevyn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Also, I do have a request and would be willing to help. TG docs seem
>> to be very unorganized on the website. Some are in the documantation,
>> some are in Trac and If there was one page to sum that all up, or at
>> least point people to trac
> I believe your refering to docs.turbogears.org vrs
> trac.turbogears/wiki, if you take a look the wiki is closed and on the
> front page it tells you to go to docs site.
I have to support Lord's general sentiments here. I didn't realise that the
Trac site was closed for editing, until I tried to update a page, I had written
earlier. The little sentence on the Trac start page is hardly enough to make
anyone aware of the fact. I suggest putting a BIG NOTE there, saying "Go to
docs.turbogears.org, anything you find here but not there, please migrate!"
The same note should be on the DocumentationPlayground page, because many
people (like me) will have only this page in their bookmarks.
> if you find anything on
> trac that's interesting, please contribute migrating it to
> http://docs.turbogears.org/1.0/RoughDocs except for outdated docs most
> stuff should be already duplicated on the docs site.
That may be, but the wiki is poorly linked at the present stage. For example
"IntroductionToWidgets" is not linked by any page at all, IMHO it should be
linked from the 1.0 index page directly.
As a side note: http://trac.turbogears.org/turbogears/wiki/SimpleWidgetForm
should really be in the new docs wiki as well, so far it is only linked.
> http://docs.turbogears.org/1.0/RoughDocs
This should be linked from
- the FrontPage
- http://docs.turbogears.org/1.0 and
- http://docs.turbogears.org/DocHelp (it is mentioned there, but not linked)
Another side note: On the front page, the sentence "You can help us have great
docs." is hardly clear and encouraging. I would suggest something along the
lines of:
"Do you have comments or suggestions or want to contribute to the documentation
in any way? Please read our [http://docs.turbogears.org/DocHelp Contributing
Docs to TurboGears Guide]!"
I am not saying, that the new doc site is all bad, and I am not expecting Rome
to be built in one day and only by the core editors, but to claim that the new
docs are satisfactory is IMHO unjustified.
Just my 2 cents worth
Chris
Lee McFadden
>
> That may be, but the wiki is poorly linked at the present stage. For example
> "IntroductionToWidgets" is not linked by any page at all, IMHO it should be
> linked from the 1.0 index page directly.
I wholeheartedly agree - I had to *search* for a page that I knew to
be there because it wasn't linked from any other page. When people do
"cleanups" they should really check to see what they're doing.
>
> As a side note: http://trac.turbogears.org/turbogears/wiki/SimpleWidgetForm
> should really be in the new docs wiki as well, so far it is only linked.
>
> > http://docs.turbogears.org/1.0/RoughDocs
>
> This should be linked from
>
> - the FrontPage
> - http://docs.turbogears.org/1.0 and
> - http://docs.turbogears.org/DocHelp (it is mentioned there, but not linked)
>
Yes, but RoughDocs is like the Documentation Playground on Trac.
Unfortunately, at the moment, there is no-one that I can see actively
moderating, editing and publishing these user contributed docs.
> Another side note: On the front page, the sentence "You can help us have great
> docs." is hardly clear and encouraging. I would suggest something along the
> lines of:
>
> "Do you have comments or suggestions or want to contribute to the documentation
> in any way? Please read our [http://docs.turbogears.org/DocHelp Contributing
> Docs to TurboGears Guide]!"
>
Yes, this is another thing that needs looking at. Some of the English
used throughout the wiki is fairly bad. I'm not begrudging this
though as many of the docs have been written by someone for whom
english is not their first language. Again, editors with time to go
through the docs who's english is good (or great ;) are needed.
>
> I am not saying, that the new doc site is all bad, and I am not expecting Rome
> to be built in one day and only by the core editors, but to claim that the new
> docs are satisfactory is IMHO unjustified.
>
I don't think anyone has claimed that the docs are satisfactory. With
the infrastrucure now in place they definately have the *potential* to
be superb, it just needs some organisation.
I'm hoping that the doc sprints organised by Mark Ramm et al will push
towards the docs becoming much better, and I know that once my current
workload has decreased a little (which I hope should be in a few
weeks) I, for one, will be plowing through the docs as much as
possible.
I would also like to try and take a leaf out of the Wordpress Codex[1]
book. The organisation they have there for their wiki is amazing and
it's a community in and of itself and is, without doubt, one of the
best community generated documentaton sites I've seen. With the
helpful, friendly community we have here, kicking something like that
off shouldn't be *too* hard.
[1]: http://codex.wordpress.org
Lee
gasolin
Lee McFadden wrote:
> On 11/8/06, Jorge Vargas <jorge....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > maybe you miss it or someone upgraded the site to make you look bad :D
> >
>
> Hehe, nope, the link has always been there, even back in the days of
> the original green site. :)
>
Well the 'tiny link' had been added for a month since the time I can't
find the planet link on TurboGears frontpage :-p
--
Fred
Jorge Vargas
> > On 11/7/06, Lord Galrion <nevyn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Also, I do have a request and would be willing to help. TG docs seem
> >> to be very unorganized on the website. Some are in the documantation,
> >> some are in Trac and If there was one page to sum that all up, or at
> >> least point people to trac
> > I believe your refering to docs.turbogears.org vrs
> > trac.turbogears/wiki, if you take a look the wiki is closed and on the
> > front page it tells you to go to docs site.
>
> I have to support Lord's general sentiments here. I didn't realise that the
> Trac site was closed for editing, until I tried to update a page, I had written
> earlier. The little sentence on the Trac start page is hardly enough to make
> anyone aware of the fact. I suggest putting a BIG NOTE there, saying "Go to
> docs.turbogears.org, anything you find here but not there, please migrate!"
>
> The same note should be on the DocumentationPlayground page, because many
> people (like me) will have only this page in their bookmarks.
>
> > if you find anything on
> > trac that's interesting, please contribute migrating it to
> > http://docs.turbogears.org/1.0/RoughDocs except for outdated docs most
> > stuff should be already duplicated on the docs site.
>
> That may be, but the wiki is poorly linked at the present stage. For example
> "IntroductionToWidgets" is not linked by any page at all, IMHO it should be
> linked from the 1.0 index page directly.
>
I guess we don't have a lot of wiki masters around :) but please fell
free to comment/modify any page there.
> As a side note: http://trac.turbogears.org/turbogears/wiki/SimpleWidgetForm
> should really be in the new docs wiki as well, so far it is only linked.
>
that's pending for migration I have added to
http://docs.turbogears.org/1.0/RoughDocs/DocumentationWishList
I'm trying to put in there everything I find people need/want so it's
a good place to start if you want to contribute.
> > http://docs.turbogears.org/1.0/RoughDocs
>
> This should be linked from
>
> - the FrontPage
> - http://docs.turbogears.org/1.0 and
it is at the bottom
> - (it is mentioned there, but not linked)
true I'll fix that
>
> Another side note: On the front page, the sentence "You can help us have great
> docs." is hardly clear and encouraging. I would suggest something along the
> lines of:
>
> "Do you have comments or suggestions or want to contribute to the documentation
> in any way? Please read our [http://docs.turbogears.org/DocHelp Contributing
> Docs to TurboGears Guide]!"
>
> I am not saying, that the new doc site is all bad, and I am not expecting Rome
> to be built in one day and only by the core editors, but to claim that the new
> docs are satisfactory is IMHO unjustified.
>
This has never been the case since the early 0.9 days docs has been
our biggest bug
Mark Ramm
> is a lot of good stuff in it and it has helped a lot.
Thanks.
> However, I am
> pretty much new to TG and web design and come from a PHP background. I
> know python relatively well but find TG confusing.
You can definitely skip the Fast Track section and go directly to the
SQLObject, Kid, and CherryPy reference sections. You won't miss
anything that you can't come back and pick up later.
> The book parts that
> I really didn't like so much was the fact that the advanced TG
> tutorial comes way before the introduction to kid and SQLObject.
> The
> bookmark example was fairly good, but there were a lot a times were it
> became vague. It left me with a feeling that I did not understand how
> things work.
I'm sorry about that. If you can point out some specific examples,
I'll be sure to update the website for the book to add explanations
anything that's unclear.
> If wanted, I can write a more specific feedback to the chapters I have
> read and don't understand, if that helps. Being that I am not an
> expert, and I feel that I am a step or two away from being a Newb, I
> figure I would be the prime target for this book.
I would definitely love to hear your feedback, and I'll do what I can
do improve your experience with the book and with TurboGears. ;)
> The only book on the market for TG is going to focuse on SQLObject and
> kid! Yet, SQLAlchemy and Genshi are going to be default in the next
> version of TG, and I am guessing by the time the book comes out. Don't
> you feel that is unfair? Or kinda silly?
SQLObject and Kid will be the defaults in the 1.0 release, and Genshi
and SQLAlchemy weren't even on the radar when we origonally wrote
those chapters ;)
I plan to create online addendum for Genshi and SQLAlchemy as they are
added to official TurboGears releases.
> Also, I do have a request and would be willing to help. TG docs seem
> to be very unorganized on the website.
I've got a couple of Documentation Sprints in the works, and you're
suggestions for possible documentation improvements would be a great
help.
--
Mark Ramm-Christensen
email: mark at compoundthinking dot com
blog: www.compoundthinking.com/blog
Michael Steinfeld
On 11/7/06, Lord Galrion <nevyn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have downloaded the TG book from Safari and have to say that there
> is a lot of good stuff in it and it has helped a lot.
Thanks.
No, Thank you!
> However, I am
> pretty much new to TG and web design and come from a PHP background. I
> know python relatively well but find TG confusing.
You can definitely skip the Fast Track section and go directly to the
SQLObject, Kid, and CherryPy reference sections. You won't miss
anything that you can't come back and pick up later.
Yeah, I will for sure. What I have read of SQLObject so far has been awesome. I briefly read the kid stuff, which I will surely re-read, but kid confuses the hell out of me without the if-elif-else clauses. Maybe I missed it, but if you can elaborate on that it would be great. Also, I don't think I saw any nested for loops with kid examples. I will read it tonight and get you some feedback.
> The book parts that
> I really didn't like so much was the fact that the advanced TG
> tutorial comes way before the introduction to kid and SQLObject.
> The
> bookmark example was fairly good, but there were a lot a times were it
> became vague. It left me with a feeling that I did not understand how
> things work.
I'm sorry about that. If you can point out some specific examples,
I'll be sure to update the website for the book to add explanations
anything that's unclear.
Great! I'll read it again tonight and email you some feedback. I am not so anal
to correct typo's and grammar.. but comprehension is a priority. I'll gladly help where I can.
> If wanted, I can write a more specific feedback to the chapters I have
> read and don't understand, if that helps. Being that I am not an
> expert, and I feel that I am a step or two away from being a Newb, I
> figure I would be the prime target for this book.
I would definitely love to hear your feedback, and I'll do what I can
do improve your experience with the book and with TurboGears. ;)
Sure, I am game. Thanks.
> The only book on the market for TG is going to focuse on SQLObject and
> kid! Yet, SQLAlchemy and Genshi are going to be default in the next
> version of TG, and I am guessing by the time the book comes out. Don't
> you feel that is unfair? Or kinda silly?
SQLObject and Kid will be the defaults in the 1.0 release, and Genshi
and SQLAlchemy weren't even on the radar when we origonally wrote
those chapters ;)
I plan to create online addendum for Genshi and SQLAlchemy as they are
added to official TurboGears releases.
> Also, I do have a request and would be willing to help. TG docs seem
> to be very unorganized on the website.
I've got a couple of Documentation Sprints in the works, and you're
suggestions for possible documentation improvements would be a great
help.
Again, happy to oblige.
--
Mark Ramm-Christensen
email: mark at compoundthinking dot com
blog: www.compoundthinking.com/blog
--
-mike
Kevin Dangoor
> I'm sorry guys, I don't want to be negative but I want to be honest. I
> have purchased the TG Ultimate video and was very excited, but again
> there really was not much in the 5hrs to help a newb. Kevin is very
> smart and goes through things so fast assuming that everybody has his
> knowlege and expertise. A lot of the people who want to enjoy and use
> TG are not at Kevin's expert level. Just a suggestion.. Forget about
> the 20 minute wiki, slow down... explain things for the newb.
This is a good point. I honestly didn't target the video at newbs
(the book is angled more in that direction). What I think the video
does best (and hopefully those who've seen it would agree with this
assessment) is give people an idea of what all is lurking within TG
and where they might go to find it. Some parts of it may be newb
friendly, but a lot of it is me hoping to familiarize people with the
code that's in TG itself.
I think that an important part of using an open source project is
being able to actually use the source. (As has been pointed out
elsewhere, we need some more good diagrams and such to orient people
within the source.)
Kevin
Igor Foox
I can't speak about the video particularly because I haven't seen it,
but I definitely find that TG has more of "go look at the code"
approach than other open source projects I've used. I completely
agree that being able to figure out how TG works by digging through
the code is a huge advantage provided by open source. However I don't
think that this is a good way for a newb to learn how to use TG. As a
new user I find that a lot of the documentation for TG is very
minimal in that it kinda gives me an idea of how I should do things,
but then requires me to go digging through TG code for a couple of
hours to get things actually working. I think we could really use
some docs and tutorials that do not completely trivial things and
explain them in details!
My 0.02.
Igor
Steve Holden
I'd agree that some discussion of the architectural principles would
help flesh out the examples.
regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com
Skype: holdenweb http://holdenweb.blogspot.com
Recent Ramblings http://del.icio.us/steve.holden