Ilias Lazaridis wrote: > I would like to evaluate TurboGears for use within a personal project > and was wondering which version to use best at this point.
> The evaluation focuses initially on the persistence system and would > look somehow like this:
Michele Cella wrote: > Ilias Lazaridis wrote: > > I would like to evaluate TurboGears for use within a personal project > > and was wondering which version to use best at this point.
> > The evaluation focuses initially on the persistence system and would > > look somehow like this:
So should we feel good about being popular enough to be worth trolling, or bad about having to deal with that in the community now? I am so conflicted.
On Sat, 2006-09-02 at 13:33 -0700, Adam Jones wrote: > So should we feel good about being popular enough to be worth trolling, > or bad about having to deal with that in the community now? I am so > conflicted.
I feel good that we have members who are so attentive ;-)
> Michele Cella wrote: > > Ilias Lazaridis wrote: > > > I would like to evaluate TurboGears for use within a personal project > > > and was wondering which version to use best at this point.
> > > The evaluation focuses initially on the persistence system and would > > > look somehow like this:
> So should we feel good about being popular enough to be worth trolling, > or bad about having to deal with that in the community now? I am so > conflicted.
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote: >> I would like to evaluate TurboGears for use within a personal project >> and was wondering which version to use best at this point.
>> The evaluation focuses initially on the persistence system and would >> look somehow like this:
Ilias emailed me after running up against trouble on the Django list. I have looked at that wikipedia page.
Ilias had some valid points on his wiki regarding Django. I don't mind productive criticism. I also made it clear that I had no intention of buying services, so that commercial aspect to prior complaints about him is a non-starter.
So here's my take: I'm going to uphold an "internet death penalty" on Ilias based on him coming off looking like a troll in other forums. If he tosses out useless criticism here, it would likely just be ignored by everyone. If he has useful criticism/praise, then we benefit. If he makes a nuisance of himself, we can take action then.
If you, personally, have an issue with Ilias from some other forum, feel free to filter his email messages. Until there's actually an issue in *this* forum, I don't intend to take action.
On Sun, 2006-09-03 at 22:55 -0400, Kevin Dangoor wrote: > Ilias emailed me after running up against trouble on the Django list. > I have looked at that wikipedia page.
> Ilias had some valid points on his wiki regarding Django. I don't > mind productive criticism. I also made it clear that I had no > intention of buying services, so that commercial aspect to prior > complaints about him is a non-starter.
But reading Ilias' page, he claims that despite Patrick's clear refusal of his commercial services, Orbtech, LLC retained him anyway: http://audit.lazaridis.com/schevo
This seems rather odd, given that Orbtech's home page claims that it's lead by Patrick K. O'Brien: http://orbtech.com/
So apparently Patrick is at odds with Orbtech management, which would perhaps mark him as schizophrenic (since he *is* the management) or Ilias is a blatant liar.
I'm not fond of banning, except in the case of spamming and I think Ilias is a spammer. His technique is more subtle, but the goal is clearly the same. Every single post he makes is sure to include one or more links to his site. The fact that he disguises it as legitimate conversation doesn't change what it is. I don't think he's a troll so much as an entrepreneur with very poor ideas about honesty and how to properly garner business for himself. I don't think he's likely to attract much business from this list, but it does bother me a bit that he's using this list to try to legitimize what is apparently a complete falsehood.
I expect it's only a matter of time until he's claiming he's been retained by Blazing Things, LLC to audit TurboGears despite the open animosity the project lead Kevin Dangoor showed toward him <wink>. Watch out Kevin, next thing you know, Blazing Things will have you replaced ;-)
Cliff Wells wrote: > On Sun, 2006-09-03 at 22:55 -0400, Kevin Dangoor wrote:
> > Ilias emailed me after running up against trouble on the Django list. > > I have looked at that wikipedia page.
> > Ilias had some valid points on his wiki regarding Django. I don't > > mind productive criticism. I also made it clear that I had no > > intention of buying services, so that commercial aspect to prior > > complaints about him is a non-starter.
> I'm sure Patrick K. O'Brien thought the same thing:
Cliff Wells wrote: > On Sun, 2006-09-03 at 22:55 -0400, Kevin Dangoor wrote:
> > Ilias emailed me after running up against trouble on the Django list. > > I have looked at that wikipedia page.
> > Ilias had some valid points on his wiki regarding Django. I don't > > mind productive criticism. I also made it clear that I had no > > intention of buying services, so that commercial aspect to prior > > complaints about him is a non-starter.
> But reading Ilias' page, he claims that despite Patrick's clear refusal > of his commercial services, Orbtech, LLC retained him anyway: > http://audit.lazaridis.com/schevo
> This seems rather odd, given that Orbtech's home page claims that it's > lead by Patrick K. O'Brien: > http://orbtech.com/
> So apparently Patrick is at odds with Orbtech management, which would > perhaps mark him as schizophrenic (since he *is* the management) or > Ilias is a blatant liar.
While I would rather stay out of this discussion as much as possible, I feel I must address these comments since I have access to certain facts that others do not. I do own the company known as Orbtech, so that would definitely make me part of management. And Orbtech did indeed retain the services of Mr. Lazaridis for a period of time. I had hoped that good things might result from hiring one of my harshest critics.
My relationship with Ilias had its ups and downs, but there came a time when I decided to no longer retain his services. I don't hold any animosity towards Ilias and wish him well. I believe he feels the same way towards me.
I'd rather not comment too much on his methods or reputation as a spammer other than to say that while I do not agree with many of his methods, I think some of his reputation is undeserved and unfortunate. Hopefully you won't believe everything you read about a person and will attempt to make your own judgements, or just stick to the technical details of the discussion.
I hope that was helpful. Ilias is free to disagree with any of my statements (not that he needs my permission since this is a public forum).
On Mon, 2006-09-04 at 06:43 -0700, Patrick K. O'Brien wrote: > Cliff Wells wrote: > > So apparently Patrick is at odds with Orbtech management, which would > > perhaps mark him as schizophrenic (since he *is* the management) or > > Ilias is a blatant liar.
> While I would rather stay out of this discussion as much as possible, I > feel I must address these comments since I have access to certain facts > that others do not. I do own the company known as Orbtech, so that > would definitely make me part of management. And Orbtech did indeed > retain the services of Mr. Lazaridis for a period of time. I had hoped > that good things might result from hiring one of my harshest critics.
Well, in that case, my apologies to Ilias. Clearly there's more to the story than is publicly available.
> I expect it's only a matter of time until he's claiming he's been > retained by Blazing Things, LLC to audit TurboGears despite the open > animosity the project lead Kevin Dangoor showed toward him <wink>. > Watch out Kevin, next thing you know, Blazing Things will have you > replaced ;-)
Man, those 100% reductions in force can be a real bummer :)
Seriously, though, I'll state unequivocally that Blazing Things and myself have not and will not be retaining Ilias' services. I'm pretty sure in a "my word against his" contest, I would win.
I would like to see the meta discussion end here unless something comes up to change that. With a 1.0b1 release imminent, we have more useful things to discuss than this.
> > So apparently Patrick is at odds with Orbtech management, which would > > perhaps mark him as schizophrenic (since he *is* the management) or > > Ilias is a blatant liar.
> While I would rather stay out of this discussion as much as possible, I > feel I must address these comments since I have access to certain facts > that others do not. I do own the company known as Orbtech, so that > would definitely make me part of management. And Orbtech did indeed > retain the services of Mr. Lazaridis for a period of time. I had hoped > that good things might result from hiring one of my harshest critics.
> My relationship with Ilias had its ups and downs, but there came a time > when I decided to no longer retain his services. I don't hold any > animosity towards Ilias and wish him well. I believe he feels the same > way towards me.
This is right.
No animosity towards you, and wish you and the schevo project well.
> I'd rather not comment too much on his methods or reputation as a > spammer other than to say that while I do not agree with many of his > methods, I think some of his reputation is undeserved and unfortunate. > Hopefully you won't believe everything you read about a person and will > attempt to make your own judgements, or just stick to the technical > details of the discussion.
> I hope that was helpful. Ilias is free to disagree with any of my > statements (not that he needs my permission since this is a public > forum).
Cliff Wells wrote: > On Mon, 2006-09-04 at 06:43 -0700, Patrick K. O'Brien wrote: > > Cliff Wells wrote:
> > > So apparently Patrick is at odds with Orbtech management, which would > > > perhaps mark him as schizophrenic (since he *is* the management) or > > > Ilias is a blatant liar.
> > While I would rather stay out of this discussion as much as possible, I > > feel I must address these comments since I have access to certain facts > > that others do not. I do own the company known as Orbtech, so that > > would definitely make me part of management. And Orbtech did indeed > > retain the services of Mr. Lazaridis for a period of time. I had hoped > > that good things might result from hiring one of my harshest critics.
> Well, in that case, my apologies to Ilias.
Apology granted.
Can you (or any other reader) please tell me, which version to use best?
I would like to use the latest development version, if it is stable enouth.
"Ilias Lazaridis" <il...@lazaridis.com> writes: > I would like to use the latest development version, if it is stable > enouth.
I'm working with the head of 1.0 branch. Including production servers. It is stable enough for me. The trunk had some ups and downs, I'm not there anymore. I recommend the 1.0 branch from svn. If this isn't possible, 0.9a9 is fine.
>> I would like to use the latest development version, if it is stable >> enouth.
> I'm working with the head of 1.0 branch. Including production > servers. It is > stable enough for me. The trunk had some ups and downs, I'm not there > anymore. I recommend the 1.0 branch from svn. If this isn't > possible, 0.9a9 > is fine.
At this point, sticking with the released/easy_installable version is probably fine. (0.9a9, in this case). Soon enough, "easy_install TurboGears" will give you 1.0b1.
Kevin Dangoor wrote: > On Sep 4, 2006, at 3:45 PM, Jorge Godoy wrote: > > "Ilias Lazaridis" <il...@lazaridis.com> writes:
> >> I would like to use the latest development version, if it is stable > >> enouth.
> > I'm working with the head of 1.0 branch. Including production > > servers. It is > > stable enough for me. The trunk had some ups and downs, I'm not there > > anymore. I recommend the 1.0 branch from svn. If this isn't > > possible, 0.9a9 > > is fine.
> At this point, sticking with the released/easy_installable version is > probably fine. (0.9a9, in this case). Soon enough, "easy_install > TurboGears" will give you 1.0b1.
easy_install TurboGears
retrieved version 0.8.9
I used this version (but could change to 0.9a9 if you tell me a way).
Kevin Dangoor wrote: > On Sep 4, 2006, at 12:21 AM, Cliff Wells wrote:
> > I expect it's only a matter of time until he's claiming he's been > > retained by Blazing Things, LLC to audit TurboGears despite the open > > animosity the project lead Kevin Dangoor showed toward him <wink>. > > Watch out Kevin, next thing you know, Blazing Things will have you > > replaced ;-)
> Man, those 100% reductions in force can be a real bummer :)
> Seriously, though, I'll state unequivocally that Blazing Things and > myself have not and will not be retaining Ilias' services. I'm pretty > sure in a "my word against his" contest, I would win.
Seriously, commercial services within open source are nothing special.
I share most results as open source (or publicized factual knowledge) in order to attract collaboration partners (as I cannot fulfill the workload of such a complex project myself).
Additionally, I provide commercial services to any entity which likes to influence the flow of the case project:
Ilias Lazaridis wrote: > I would like to evaluate TurboGears for use within a personal project > and was wondering which version to use best at this point.
> The evaluation focuses initially on the persistence system and would > look somehow like this:
How is the schema-evolution support (which exist within sqlobject) provided within turbogears?
Karl Guertin wrote: > Ilias Lazaridis:: >> How is the schema-evolution support (which exist within sqlobject) >> provided within turbogears?
> AFAIK, it's not.
Short Answer:
What Karl said.
Long Answer:
That being said, TurboGears does provide support for the SQLAlchemy SQL toolkit / ORM. If you use SQLAlchemy rather than SQLObject, you can use the migrate package (http://erosson.com/migrate) for doing schema evolution and migration.
The migrate package was a Google Summer of Code project that I mentored and provides the ability to manage and version your database changes over time, including creation/modification/removal of tables, columns, indexes, and constraints in a database independent way.
The only other framework that provides something like this is Ruby on Rails' ActiveRecord ORM in its "migrations" package, but it is highly restrictive when it comes to what kinds of schemas are supported due to ActiveRecord's strict adherence to the design pattern of the same name.
> That being said, TurboGears does provide support for the SQLAlchemy > SQL > toolkit / ORM. If you use SQLAlchemy rather than SQLObject, you can > use the migrate package (http://erosson.com/migrate) for doing schema > evolution and migration.
> The migrate package was a Google Summer of Code project that I > mentored > and provides the ability to manage and version your database changes > over time, including creation/modification/removal of tables, columns, > indexes, and constraints in a database independent way.
> The only other framework that provides something like this is Ruby on > Rails' ActiveRecord ORM in its "migrations" package, but it is highly > restrictive when it comes to what kinds of schemas are supported due > to ActiveRecord's strict adherence to the design pattern of the same > name.
Wow!! Can't wait to try it! (Why on earth hasn't this been publicized before on this list?? ;) )
