> I don't know whether i find this odd or awesome, or awesomely odd
I had the same reaction when I first stumbled across Kragen Sitaker's mailing lists. [1] I met him in a social channel on IRC, and ended up following a link to one of this posts. I remember thinking it was rather eccentric to have a personal mailing list, where you just post your random thoughts for anyone who cared. As if this concept differs from your average blog in any meaningful way!
That was quite a while ago, when I was still working on some publishing software for the web. Truth be told, I'd spent well over 5 years trying to roll my own publishing platform. For some strange reason, I'd convinced myself that everything about my website had to be perfect, right down to the server software level.
The problem with that turned out to be pretty huge. On the one hand, I had spent 5 years writing software, instead of writing prose. This was something I thought would clear up eventually. But as someone once said, "data matures like wine, and software matures like fish." If I had continued down that path, it would have continued to saturate most of my available time, leaving nothing for writing.
The other problem was one of building up the idea of my site as some huge thing. Some website Magnum Opus, that people would marvel at and coo over. The conception of my site was so grandiose, in fact, that every idea I had for something to actually put on it was eventually rejected for want of better quality.
About this time, I lost something on my computer, and was searching for it everywhere. When I found it in my email archives, I realised how significant this was. My email had been archiving my life, bit by bit, over the years, and I hadn't even noticed. I asked my mum what she did with her important documents, and she replied - without even thinking - that she emailed them to herself.
So, after a bit of thinking, I decided to eschew the filesystem, and move everything to email. Instead of being forced to categorise everything into files and folders, I could just bung something in an email, add whatever annotation I needed, and press send.
I had free reign to choose whatever client I wanted to access that data. I could sort, filter, and search it - as and when I pleased. This after-the-fact organisation of my stuff seemed like such a huge improvement over what I had been doing previously.
When I switched from Debian to OS X, I moved away from this extreme. I take a more balanced approach now, preferring to keep my data in applications that completely abstract away the storage for me. Things like Evernote, iPhoto, and iTunes are good examples of software that seem to compliment my mail client in this way.
With applications that manage files for me, my interaction with the filesystem is effectively removed. And with the advent of the mobile operating system, and things like Apple's smart folders, the files and folders approach seems to be getting more and more irrelevant.
This may seem like a strange digression, but I feel it was necessary to illustrate some of the crazy places I've been to with my usage of email. I even wrote a mbox to Atom transformer in Python, so that I could blog from email using a cron job and some sellotape.
Some time later, I found Posterous. The whole idea behind that service was to let you do a blog by posting emails to them. Of course, I was hooked immediately, and started doing a few tentative posts, to see what the experience would be like.
It started out pretty great at first, but I eventually became pretty sick of all the problems I found between the cracks of the technology stack. Weirdly formatted HTML, pictures in the wrong order, sound files that wouldn't play properly. It was a total mess.
I switched to Tumblr because of that, which was good for a while. But I ran into yet more problems. That tinkering spirit inside me that forced me to distract myself with endless configuration and design changes stripped me of any time I might have had to write.
I thought back to the liberation I felt when I first started blogging with Posterous. The fact that I had been, at some points, posting a dozen or more entries before having breakfast. I did over 40 posts one week! Then I thought about why this stopped, and how I could get it back again while avoiding the other distractions.
I realised that the more free reign I have over my writing environment, the more time I will spend reigning instead of writing. The more knobs there are to tweak, and dials there are to twizzle, the more time I will spend tweaking and twizzling.
Then I thought back to this mailing list. I'd originally set it up as an address that I could add an email to if I thought it might be of some wider interest. A sort of "publish to the web" button for my mail client. I started sending a few emails here, instead of a blog or whatever, and found that I was enjoying it quite a bit more than I expected.
So that's why I ended up with a personal mailing list, I guess. I've been slowly backing myself into a technological corner over the years. Finding systems with fewer and fewer degrees of freedom.
Google groups provides me with the smallest ability to distract myself as is probably imaginable. I can change the name, and select from a few basic colour schemes. But nothing more. That stops me from worrying about things, fretting over detail, and frees me up to just open a new mail, bung in some text, and hit send.
You know, I got so caught up telling my summarised (yes, really) little story that I forgot to actually address some of the other things that make a personal mailing list so cool.
So, I think i covered the whole configurability thing. Regular blogs are okay, but if your the kind of perfectionist that likes to tweak things too much, or has a tendency to get distracted with the look and feel of something, then you're just going to drive yourself up the wall.
Okay, so some other things. Using email is kind of like a poor man's publishing in a way. If you write a book, and it goes to print, that's effectively the end of it. There's no way you can edit a book once it's already been printed and shipped out to the bookstores.
In a similar way, there's no real way for me to edit a post if I've sent it via email to a mailing list. On the rare occasion, I can retract something because it's so utterly crap or was sent by mistake, but that's about the only option I have.
That temptation to go back and edit myself, to improve my style, fix errors, punctuation, spelling, or whatever, is completely stripped away. As someone who used to edit my posts way too much, this kind of restriction frees me up to concentrate on writing new things.
Really, the temptation to edit is so high for me most of the time. The biggest problem with editing is that when you're doing it, you're not writing. And if you're unlucky, you're going to spend more time editing than you do writing. Which would be fine, if everything you wrote was worthy of being edited so heavily.
But if you're anything like me, the quality of a post usually doesn't show itself until some time afterwards. So by deferring upfront editing task, you're conserving all the effort you might have expended on the posts you don't really care about in the end.
This frees you up to fire and forget. It lets you concentrate quantity and breadth instead of quality. That might usually be considered a bad thing, but consider my state of affairs before.
I spent a whole year fussing over presentation, and wrote only two things. Neither of them particularly noteworthy. I don't know about you, but I'd rather write a hundred duds in one year, and have a handful of decent posts out of it.
A second, important, benefit is that of redundant backups. When you post to a blog, that's fine, as long as the blog stays up. As long as you remember to keep a local backup of your posts. But you have, probably, two copies of your writing. One on your local computer, and one on the server.
When you're posting stuff to a mailing list, you're effectively spreading your work amongst every person who subscribes. There's a local copy of your writing if you use a mail client, a copy on your mail server, a copy on Google Groups for the world to see, and a copy in everyone's inbox.
Holy crap thats awesome. You have a local copy of your post on everyone who's subscribed because it virally transfers itself to everyone who reads it. Reminds me of couchDB replication. Speaking of couchDB I was at couchcamp and I don't think there was anyone there who had met you in person.
I really like the concept you've described to me, and actually, you've inspired me to write more.
Also thanks for sharing your time, much appreciated!
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 6:51 PM, Noah Slater <nsla...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
> On 17 Sep 2010, at 02:28, Tyler Gillies wrote:
> > Oddly Awesome FTW
> You know, I got so caught up telling my summarised (yes, really) little > story that I forgot to actually address some of the other things that make a > personal mailing list so cool.
> So, I think i covered the whole configurability thing. Regular blogs are > okay, but if your the kind of perfectionist that likes to tweak things too > much, or has a tendency to get distracted with the look and feel of > something, then you're just going to drive yourself up the wall.
> Okay, so some other things. Using email is kind of like a poor man's > publishing in a way. If you write a book, and it goes to print, that's > effectively the end of it. There's no way you can edit a book once it's > already been printed and shipped out to the bookstores.
> In a similar way, there's no real way for me to edit a post if I've sent it > via email to a mailing list. On the rare occasion, I can retract something > because it's so utterly crap or was sent by mistake, but that's about the > only option I have.
> That temptation to go back and edit myself, to improve my style, fix > errors, punctuation, spelling, or whatever, is completely stripped away. As > someone who used to edit my posts way too much, this kind of restriction > frees me up to concentrate on writing new things.
> Really, the temptation to edit is so high for me most of the time. The > biggest problem with editing is that when you're doing it, you're not > writing. And if you're unlucky, you're going to spend more time editing than > you do writing. Which would be fine, if everything you wrote was worthy of > being edited so heavily.
> But if you're anything like me, the quality of a post usually doesn't show > itself until some time afterwards. So by deferring upfront editing task, > you're conserving all the effort you might have expended on the posts you > don't really care about in the end.
> This frees you up to fire and forget. It lets you concentrate quantity and > breadth instead of quality. That might usually be considered a bad thing, > but consider my state of affairs before.
> I spent a whole year fussing over presentation, and wrote only two things. > Neither of them particularly noteworthy. I don't know about you, but I'd > rather write a hundred duds in one year, and have a handful of decent posts > out of it.
> A second, important, benefit is that of redundant backups. When you post to > a blog, that's fine, as long as the blog stays up. As long as you remember > to keep a local backup of your posts. But you have, probably, two copies of > your writing. One on your local computer, and one on the server.
> When you're posting stuff to a mailing list, you're effectively spreading > your work amongst every person who subscribes. There's a local copy of your > writing if you use a mail client, a copy on your mail server, a copy on > Google Groups for the world to see, and a copy in everyone's inbox.
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 6:55 PM, Tyler Gillies <ty...@pdxbrain.com> wrote: > Holy crap thats awesome. You have a local copy of your post on everyone > who's subscribed because it virally transfers itself to everyone who reads > it. Reminds me of couchDB replication. Speaking of couchDB I was at > couchcamp and I don't think there was anyone there who had met you in > person.
> I really like the concept you've described to me, and actually, you've > inspired me to write more.
> Also thanks for sharing your time, much appreciated!
> On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 6:51 PM, Noah Slater <nsla...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
>> On 17 Sep 2010, at 02:28, Tyler Gillies wrote:
>> > Oddly Awesome FTW
>> You know, I got so caught up telling my summarised (yes, really) little >> story that I forgot to actually address some of the other things that make a >> personal mailing list so cool.
>> So, I think i covered the whole configurability thing. Regular blogs are >> okay, but if your the kind of perfectionist that likes to tweak things too >> much, or has a tendency to get distracted with the look and feel of >> something, then you're just going to drive yourself up the wall.
>> Okay, so some other things. Using email is kind of like a poor man's >> publishing in a way. If you write a book, and it goes to print, that's >> effectively the end of it. There's no way you can edit a book once it's >> already been printed and shipped out to the bookstores.
>> In a similar way, there's no real way for me to edit a post if I've sent >> it via email to a mailing list. On the rare occasion, I can retract >> something because it's so utterly crap or was sent by mistake, but that's >> about the only option I have.
>> That temptation to go back and edit myself, to improve my style, fix >> errors, punctuation, spelling, or whatever, is completely stripped away. As >> someone who used to edit my posts way too much, this kind of restriction >> frees me up to concentrate on writing new things.
>> Really, the temptation to edit is so high for me most of the time. The >> biggest problem with editing is that when you're doing it, you're not >> writing. And if you're unlucky, you're going to spend more time editing than >> you do writing. Which would be fine, if everything you wrote was worthy of >> being edited so heavily.
>> But if you're anything like me, the quality of a post usually doesn't show >> itself until some time afterwards. So by deferring upfront editing task, >> you're conserving all the effort you might have expended on the posts you >> don't really care about in the end.
>> This frees you up to fire and forget. It lets you concentrate quantity and >> breadth instead of quality. That might usually be considered a bad thing, >> but consider my state of affairs before.
>> I spent a whole year fussing over presentation, and wrote only two things. >> Neither of them particularly noteworthy. I don't know about you, but I'd >> rather write a hundred duds in one year, and have a handful of decent posts >> out of it.
>> A second, important, benefit is that of redundant backups. When you post >> to a blog, that's fine, as long as the blog stays up. As long as you >> remember to keep a local backup of your posts. But you have, probably, two >> copies of your writing. One on your local computer, and one on the server.
>> When you're posting stuff to a mailing list, you're effectively spreading >> your work amongst every person who subscribes. There's a local copy of your >> writing if you use a mail client, a copy on your mail server, a copy on >> Google Groups for the world to see, and a copy in everyone's inbox.
> Holy crap thats awesome. You have a local copy of your post on everyone who's subscribed because it virally transfers itself to everyone who reads it.
Yep! Welcome to being a node of my backup solution.
> Reminds me of couchDB replication. Speaking of couchDB I was at couchcamp and I don't think there was anyone there who had met you in person.
Ah yes, that old chestnut. I'm a very elusive fellow! There are rumours that I'm actually a computer program, joining together some mysterious corpus with an advanced Markov chain.
It's mainly Jan who spreads these rumours though. I think it annoys him that other people have met me, but I somehow manage to avoid him at every opportunity. it's nothing personal, I swear!
From what I hear, one of my mailing list posts was included as part of a talk given at CouchCamp about the importance of community. That's kinda cool! I wish I could have been there to see it. I'm a very reluctant flyer though, so, you know.
> I really like the concept you've described to me, and actually, you've inspired me to write more.
Well, that's fantastic. I was talking to Benoît Chesneau about the concept pretty recently, and he's set up his own mailing list this week. [1] My friend Sean B. Palmer has one too. [2] Who knows, it could become something of a trend!
> Also thanks for sharing your time, much appreciated!
> do you prefer gmail or some other desktop client?
I use Mail.app for a number of reasons.
I like the fact that I have off-line access to a local copy of all my mail. I like the fact that it is integrated into spotlight. I like the smart mailboxes. More generally, I like knowing that Apple have a vested interest in keeping it seamlessly integrated with the rest of the OS.
There's a lot to be said for commodity and ubiquity when it comes to software choices.
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 7:09 PM, Noah Slater <nsla...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
> On 17 Sep 2010, at 02:56, Tyler Gillies wrote:
> > Btw, what email client do you use?
> > do you prefer gmail or some other desktop client?
> I use Mail.app for a number of reasons.
Im doing an experiment where I actually respond to blocks of text rather that top-posting. the only gripe I have about gmail is that it coerces you into just top posting everything, which imho leads to a very fragmented discussion.
I don't have a mac but i like the mac-esque alternative to thunderbird called postbox[1]
> I like the fact that I have off-line access to a local copy of all my mail. > I like the fact that it is integrated into spotlight. I like the smart > mailboxes. More generally, I like knowing that Apple have a vested interest > in keeping it seamlessly integrated with the rest of the OS.
> There's a lot to be said for commodity and ubiquity when it comes to > software choices.
Oh I also forgot to mention my own mailing list i just created[1] And another gripe about gmail, it leaves the entire previous message in the body so even if im not replying to your entire message, its still there, sitting at the bottom of the email pseudo-hidden and rotting
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 7:24 PM, Tyler Gillies <ty...@pdxbrain.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 7:09 PM, Noah Slater <nsla...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
>> On 17 Sep 2010, at 02:56, Tyler Gillies wrote:
>> > Btw, what email client do you use?
>> > do you prefer gmail or some other desktop client?
>> I use Mail.app for a number of reasons.
> Im doing an experiment where I actually respond to blocks of text rather > that top-posting. the only gripe I have about gmail is that it coerces you > into just top posting everything, which imho leads to a very fragmented > discussion.
> I don't have a mac but i like the mac-esque alternative to thunderbird > called postbox[1]
>> I like the fact that I have off-line access to a local copy of all my >> mail. I like the fact that it is integrated into spotlight. I like the smart >> mailboxes. More generally, I like knowing that Apple have a vested interest >> in keeping it seamlessly integrated with the rest of the OS.
>> There's a lot to be said for commodity and ubiquity when it comes to >> software choices.
> Im doing an experiment where I actually respond to blocks of text rather that top-posting. the only gripe I have about gmail is that it coerces you into just top posting everything, which imho leads to a very fragmented discussion.
Yes, Mail.app does the same.
Takes a bit of self-discipline to cut up the text appropriately.
> I don't have a mac but i like the mac-esque alternative to thunderbird called postbox[1]
When I was using Debian, I used mutt.
It's pretty retro, but over time I managed to configure it to suit the quirkiest needs I could think of. A bit like Emacs, in a way. Once you've configured it past a certain point, you wonder how you ever managed to survive without it. Total nonsense, of course.
Have you seen the faceted search stuff in Thunderbird?
> Oh I also forgot to mention my own mailing list i just created[1]
Fantastic! Subscribed!
> And another gripe about gmail, it leaves the entire previous message in the body so even if im not replying to your entire message, its still there, sitting at the bottom of the email pseudo-hidden and rotting
I feel like this medium could get abused as an IM sort of thing, which is not entirely bad unless of course there are hundreds of people subscribed. Then again, I guess that's what the digest setting is for. Fwiw, I'm writing this from postbox since I downloaded it directly after sending you that email.
One thing I'm noticing, is that my email's are getting incrementally longer. This is actually good. I have a "problem" where i can send a million one line messages. I would really like to get to the point where i can succinctly put everything down in one message without feeling the need to keep resending.
> I feel like this medium could get abused as an IM sort of thing, which > is not entirely bad unless of course there are hundreds of people > subscribed. Then again, I guess that's what the digest setting is for.
That's what IRC is for.
Hop on to #tumbolia on IRC if you fancy a chat instead.
> One thing I'm noticing, is that my email's are getting incrementally > longer. This is actually good. I have a "problem" where i can send a > million one line messages. I would really like to get to the point where > i can succinctly put everything down in one message without feeling the > need to keep resending.
On 17 Sep 2010, at 03:31, Noah Slater <nsla...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
> On 17 Sep 2010, at 03:24, Tyler Gillies wrote:
>> Im doing an experiment where I actually respond to blocks of text rather that top-posting. the only gripe I have about gmail is that it coerces you into just top posting everything, which imho leads to a very fragmented discussion.
> Yes, Mail.app does the same.
> Takes a bit of self-discipline to cut up the text appropriately.
I think Mail.app is more condusive to bottom posting that Gmail tbh
> You know, I got so caught up telling my summarised (yes, really) little story that I forgot to actually address some of the other things that make a personal mailing list so cool.
That little story of yours got me thrilled. You know, I didn't find it strange that you and Sean were running mailing lists at any point, but now I'm somewhat feeling like I understand your reasons more deeply – and the idea is great.
It reminds me of my blogging time, where I, too, found myself going back to the archives, editing here, tweaking there, adding plug-ins, twisting the layout and improving the style, but all the time feeling the constant lack of creativity to actually write something interesting.
Then again, I see myself sitting at the desk, feeling no urge to touch the computer because a then-girlfriend was waiting to write me as soon as my idle time would drop and I rather wanted some time for myself, and writing a lot of comparedly great stuff on some papers lying around just to try out my new fountain pen. Or join me in a look back on my past twelve years of school: I can remember lots and lots of times where I just started to write, draw, or even getting the camera from my bag and taking random photos of my neighbors' pens which should turn out to be quite good, too [1]. (Of course the latter was only possible when sitting in the back row ;-)).
Your post caused me to rethink the reluctance to blogging that I developed in the last years. I won't start off creating a mailing list like Benoit or Tyler right now (and if it's just for the sake of not doing what everybody does), but I'll try to be active here more frequently (oh yes, I'm reading almost everything already), and I subscribed the latter two's lists, too.
Another thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread so far (I think) is the development of the "commenting" attitude found in the blogosphere. Getting posts into your e-mail client creates a totally different relationship between you and the poster, lowering the bar for you to post your (even lengthly) comment, and making it easier for everybody who's interested to follow the thread. I think I like this.
I'm a fan of constrained systems that summon our greatest, focused
energy.
Guilty of re-editing and rereading old posts many times. As to look, I
changed my blog format about 12 times last year, wish I snap shotted
all the layouts.
I joined Tumbolia this am after reading the review of Couch camp and
the link to a post in the archives?. I'm a member of too many mailing
lists so I don't get any emails from any of them, I just pop in from
time to time and read (not too often), mostly for app or tech learning
sprints.
This mailing list is another epic way to hack oneself into creating
what you want, instead of letting your habits getting in the way. I
tried hacking my frustration with my day job in late 2008 by scouring
the web like a man on a mission. I bumped into Tyler while we edited a
wave blip in late 2009, and we collaborated off and on ever since
(learned just a little, and had a great time).
My self hack for blogging is to write while walking every morning for
a few hours. I read what I'm curious about, and edit while I go. I do
it with the phone's local notepad (I'm comfortable thinking in html,
but some key combos still take too long). I use the notepad unsync'd
after it deleted one too many posts, thanks to an iOS gmail/exchange
contacts upgrade (it would erase writing I had done for an hour or
two).
Now my blogging home is my slick new iPod touch "phone" (google voice
+ gizmo5), maybe I'll get a mifi one day. I read for hours a day on
the phone so it's good for my eyes to have something hi res. The
typing interface is better for me on the ipod (iphone) after hundreds
of posts. I enjoyed my android besides those things until the camera
died in the first 2 weeks (no replacements available, bah!).
Every once in a while I'll post from the desktop, or add an image as
an after thought. My initial cut for written communication is
impossible to read, I skip words, mangle grammar, etc. I enjoy email
blogs for photos and other supported media update like videos
(messel . tumblr/posterous).
My mobile blog is victusspiritus.com. I should check the google time
machine for all the design styles I went through from Feb 09 to now
(pseudo settled).
On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Jannis Andrija Schnitzer <jan...@myrkur.de
> wrote:
> It reminds me of my blogging time, where I, too, found myself going back to > the archives, editing here, tweaking there, adding plug-ins, twisting the > layout and improving the style, but all the time feeling the constant lack > of creativity to actually write something interesting.
I think pretty much everyone who has ever had a blog has edited it more than actually written. One of the awesome things that keeps amazing me about this format, is the amount of signal to noise (er writing to tinkering) that gets done
> Your post caused me to rethink the reluctance to blogging that I developed > in the last years. I won't start off creating a mailing list like Benoit or > Tyler right now (and if it's just for the sake of not doing what everybody > does), but I'll try to be active here more frequently (oh yes, I'm reading > almost everything already), and I subscribed the latter two's lists, too.
Thanks for subscribing :)
> Another thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread so far (I think) is > the development of the "commenting" attitude found in the blogosphere. > Getting posts into your e-mail client creates a totally different > relationship between you and the poster, lowering the bar for you to post > your (even lengthly) comment, and making it easier for everybody who's > interested to follow the thread. I think I like this.
Yeah "commenting" on a mailing list i think is one of the best features. because comments aren't demoted to second class citizens, they are the content. Sometimes (a lot of the time) they are more interesting than the original post
On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Jannis Andrija Schnitzer <jan...@myrkur.de
> wrote:
> Then again, I see myself sitting at the desk, feeling no urge to touch the > computer because a then-girlfriend was waiting to write me as soon as my > idle time would drop and I rather wanted some time for myself, and writing a > lot of comparedly great stuff on some papers lying around just to try out my > new fountain pen. Or join me in a look back on my past twelve years of > school: I can remember lots and lots of times where I just started to write, > draw, or even getting the camera from my bag and taking random photos of my > neighbors' pens which should turn out to be quite good, too [1]. (Of course > the latter was only possible when sitting in the back row ;-)).
On Sep 17, 2010, at 7:46 PM, Jannis Andrija Schnitzer wrote:
> I won't start off creating a mailing list like Benoit or Tyler right now (and if it's just for the sake of not doing what everybody does).
Won't I? I think I have just create a mailing list [1]! Let's see how much this will motivate me to write more. And I'd greatly appreciate if you'd join me in venturing into the shadows!
On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 7:22 AM, Jannis Andrija Schnitzer <jan...@myrkur.de>wrote:
> Won't I? I think I have just create a mailing list [1]! Let's see how much > this will motivate me to write more. > And I'd greatly appreciate if you'd join me in venturing into the shadows!
venture into the shadows? I already live there, sorry ;)
