accessibility for totally blind users?

[Daniel Dalton]

Hi,

Where is android tts at for totally blind users? If I was to pick up one
of the devices today, what could I do considering I can't see at all?
What can be done totally independently? Can any of the following be
done?
1. read/write sms, email
2. Browse the web
3. Calendar, contacts
4. Clock/alarm clock
5. Make calls, and use the shell
6. Launch the shell to invoke apps.
7. GPS with audible directions.
8. Battery level information.

They are the main things, and do the menus speak yet or not? Anyway,
just interested in what I can do so I can get rid of talks!:)

Thanks very much and keep up the great work

--
Cheers,
Dan

http://members.iinet.net.au/~ddalton/

[blindfold]

I would like to know this too, in order to determine at what point I
can start recommending Android phones to blind people who currently
use mostly Nokia phones with the Talks or Mobile Speak screen reader,
and the smaller group that now uses the Apple iPhone with VoiceOver. I
think we need an independent review by blind phone users if the
Android developers feel that Android accessibility is adequate for the
tasks that you mention. I have not seen any up-to-date analysis and
benchmark of what can and cannot be done under, say, Android 2.0 in
terms of blind accessibility.

Thanks,

Peter


The vOICe for Android
http://www.seeingwithsound.com/android.htm

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[Nanard]

Hi,

I was always curious about how blind people could use a phone ?

When you sais 'blind' : are the people able to see a little or not at
all ?

How can they see the phone menu, icons, select applications ?

Android phones can not be totally used by voice (did I miss
something ?)

I think using a phone (or other devices) only using voice & getting
voice as a result is not only for blind people, but would also benefic
everyone (small children, older people, or simply : every one who
doesn't want to waste time).

Voice is far more natural for humans than having to look & input on
small real/virtuals keys on a phone !
You could ask a machine to do something without even looking/touching
at it.

It would be great is we could use natural language with machines....
it seems not so impossible now.

[Nanard]

I am not asking for an IA on a phone in Java :-)

But it would be great if for instance the phone would understand :
"please I want to make a call" --> open contacts
"call my borther" --> do the call/dial
"i want to take a picture" --> open camera application
"when did I send the last sms to Daniel" --> search into SMS messages
& check with contacts & answer by voice.


I'm not asking about doing real conversations :-)

[Dominic Mazzoni]

Nanard, blind people don't usually use speech recognition - they type on the keyboard and use arrow keys to navigate, and the phone speaks to describe what's on the screen.  If you want a phone that's totally accessible to the blind now, or if you want to learn more about what's possible today, check out Nuance TALKS or Mobile Speak.

To address Dan and Peter's original question, the current state of things is described in this public blog post:

  http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/10/more-accessibility-features-in-android.html

Basically, Android 1.6 and beyond has accessibility features included, and it has an example screen reader.  It is now possible to write accessible applications, but that doesn't mean that most applications are accessible.  Yes, you can make phone calls and check the battery status.  No, you can't browse the web or do messaging yet - but in theory a third party application could provide these features now.

- Dominic

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[blindfold]

Hi Dominic,

> in theory a third party application could provide these features now.

In that case I hope that Nolan Darilek can run that final mile with
his screen reader. To me it is unclear if all the required low-level
event mechanisms are now in place, or how this differs between Android
1.6 and 2.0. It seems like key events from the soft keyboard cannot be
tapped at all, for instance? Neither TalkBack nor Spiel sounds
keypresses there, while I do not see how to implement an accessible
"hover" mechanism for the soft keyboard as needed for key selection.
Not even the trackball seems to let one move over the soft keyboard.
Is a physical keyboard absolutely required? The blog post does not
touch upon these matters.

Such seemingly undocumented limitations makes me wonder if all the
necessary parts exist, such as for instance also needed for hopping
from link to link in a web page using the built-in browser. I think
the last thing we want is a dedicated accessible browser, which should
indeed be possible by porting the old Lynx browser source code. That
would go against the spirit of only needing a screen reader that
offers access to all common GUI elements in all apps, like with Talks
or Mobile Speak on non-Android phones, and Jaws, Window-Eyes or NVDA
on the PC.

In short, I am still confused about the level and type of
accessibility realizable under Android 1.6 and 2.0.

Thanks

On Dec 4, 4:17 pm, Dominic Mazzoni <dmazz...@google.com> wrote:
> Nanard, blind people don't usually use speech recognition - they type on the
> keyboard and use arrow keys to navigate, and the phone speaks to describe
> what's on the screen.  If you want a phone that's totally accessible to the
> blind now, or if you want to learn more about what's possible today, check
> out Nuance TALKS or Mobile Speak.
>
> To address Dan and Peter's original question, the current state of things is
> described in this public blog post:
>

> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/10/more-accessibility-features-in...

>
> Basically, Android 1.6 and beyond has accessibility features included, and
> it has an example screen reader.  It is now possible to write accessible
> applications, but that doesn't mean that most applications are accessible.
>  Yes, you can make phone calls and check the battery status.  No, you can't
> browse the web or do messaging yet - but in theory a third party application
> could provide these features now.
>
> - Dominic
>

> On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 6:48 AM, Nanard <bsegon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I am not asking for an IA on a phone in Java :-)
>
> > But it would be great if for instance the phone would understand :
> > "please I want to make a call"  --> open contacts
> > "call my borther"  --> do the call/dial
> > "i want to take a picture"  --> open camera application
> > "when did I send the last sms to Daniel"  --> search into SMS messages
> > & check with contacts & answer by voice.
>
> > I'm not asking about doing real conversations :-)
>
> > --
>
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "TTS-for-Android" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to tts-for...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > tts-for-andro...@googlegroups.com<tts-for-android%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

[Dominic Mazzoni]

Personally I don't think the soft keyboard is a very high priority since there are now several excellent Android phones with physical keyboards to choose from - but remember that the soft keyboard can be replaced with a third-party one, and all of the code is open-source - so yes, a third party could address this issue.

- Dominic

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tts-for-andro...@googlegroups.com.

[blindfold]

You are right, one can replace the SoftKeyboard at application level,
and thus probably create an accessible one without requiring a
firmware update. I'm not sure if it can be activated without requiring
the user to go into Settings | Local & text to select it, which could
complicate screen reader installation with still more knobs to turn
after the user already had to first turn on a screen reader via
Settings | Accessibility. On the other hand, an accessible soft
keyboard could be a separate application in case it is considered
optional (which could be an almost political question about what
exactly constitutes accessibility).

Thanks

On Dec 4, 5:25 pm, Dominic Mazzoni <dmazz...@google.com> wrote:
> Personally I don't think the soft keyboard is a very high priority since
> there are now several excellent Android phones with physical keyboards to
> choose from - but remember that the soft keyboard can be replaced with a
> third-party one, and all of the code is open-source - so yes, a third party
> could address this issue.
>
> - Dominic
>

> > <tts-for-android%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<tts-for-android%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>

[Nolan Darilek]

Just want to chime in here:

1. I'm not really an expert on this stuff, just someone who tried
understanding the accessibility APIs and had some amount of success with
them.

2. At this time, I don't see how I as a screen reader developer can
provide browser access. To that end, I've filed an issue on the Android
tracker, including a suggestion as to how Webkit access might be
implemented in a seamless way. It will likely require some amount of API
change in the views, but the last thing I want to see is separate
accessible apps, and I'm hoping (and having no reason to doubt for the
moment) that Google engineers feel the same.

3. As far as browsers go, there appears to be a talking one in the
eyes-free subversion repository in the CVox module. I don't know the
status of this, but in looking at the code, I'm pleased to note that it
uses standard Webkit views and such, but injects custom code for
providing accessible element traversal. Unfortunately I haven't gotten
to test this out yet, and unfortunately when last I looked it didn't
feature a build system, so either that wasn't checked in yet or is being
left out to discourage experimenting with early code. :) In any case,
adding it should be easy.

4. I hope that the mechanisms used in CVox are incorporated into
AccessibilityService. It'd be great if Spiel could create its own Webkit
accessibility enhancements for a more consistent UI, and if said
enhancements wouldn't interfere with any introduced by non-accessibility
apps.

5. As a blind cellphone consumer, I think that touchscreen access is a
priority. As a T-Mobile subscriber, my current phone options are the G1
(aging hardware, trackball w/o D-Pad) or the Cliq (great accessibility
form factor, but stuck on 1.5 and no one's saying anything about updates
to 1.6+.) I could of course switch away from TMUS, but I'd rather not do
so in pursuit of an accessible phone. I think that touchscreen access,
if not an absolute priority, should definitely be a high-ranking item.
At the very least it expands our available accessible choices.

6. Once again I'm wondering if this is the best forum for accessibility
discussion? The main developer list is way too high-volume for me to
keep up with, and TTS isn't exactly a great match either. Or should we
keep discussing said things here? Kind of wondering if there's much
point. I'm confident that Google is addressing accessibility issues in
some manner, but those of us third party devs trying to make the
experience compelling for other blind users aren't getting a whole lot,
probably due to stuffy NDAs more than anything else. Also wishing
Motorola would say something about whether this $400 Cliq I'm about to
get stuck with will eventually be capable of running the screen reader
I'm trying to develop and give away for free, but that's a rant for
another forum.

Sorry for rambling, but since there's not a whole lot official and
public about accessibility developments ATM, and since there's not a
better forum for such things, having developers share braindumps
periodically seems like the best solution for now. I imagine it's also
helpful for end users wondering about the practical implications of
Android accessibility, what choices they have WRT phones, etc.

On 12/04/2009 10:17 AM, blindfold wrote:
> Hi Dominic,

>
>
>> in theory a third party application could provide these features now.
>>

> In that case I hope that Nolan Darilek can run that final mile with
> his screen reader. To me it is unclear if all the required low-level
> event mechanisms are now in place, or how this differs between Android
> 1.6 and 2.0. It seems like key events from the soft keyboard cannot be
> tapped at all, for instance? Neither TalkBack nor Spiel sounds
> keypresses there, while I do not see how to implement an accessible
> "hover" mechanism for the soft keyboard as needed for key selection.
> Not even the trackball seems to let one move over the soft keyboard.
> Is a physical keyboard absolutely required? The blog post does not
> touch upon these matters.
>
> Such seemingly undocumented limitations makes me wonder if all the
> necessary parts exist, such as for instance also needed for hopping
> from link to link in a web page using the built-in browser. I think
> the last thing we want is a dedicated accessible browser, which should
> indeed be possible by porting the old Lynx browser source code. That
> would go against the spirit of only needing a screen reader that
> offers access to all common GUI elements in all apps, like with Talks
> or Mobile Speak on non-Android phones, and Jaws, Window-Eyes or NVDA
> on the PC.
>
> In short, I am still confused about the level and type of
> accessibility realizable under Android 1.6 and 2.0.
>
> Thanks
>
>
> On Dec 4, 4:17 pm, Dominic Mazzoni<dmazz...@google.com> wrote:
>

>> Nanard, blind people don't usually use speech recognition - they type on the
>> keyboard and use arrow keys to navigate, and the phone speaks to describe
>> what's on the screen. If you want a phone that's totally accessible to the
>> blind now, or if you want to learn more about what's possible today, check
>> out Nuance TALKS or Mobile Speak.
>>
>> To address Dan and Peter's original question, the current state of things is
>> described in this public blog post:
>>

>> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/10/more-accessibility-features-in...

>>
>> Basically, Android 1.6 and beyond has accessibility features included, and
>> it has an example screen reader. It is now possible to write accessible
>> applications, but that doesn't mean that most applications are accessible.
>> Yes, you can make phone calls and check the battery status. No, you can't
>> browse the web or do messaging yet - but in theory a third party application
>> could provide these features now.
>>
>> - Dominic
>>

>> On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 6:48 AM, Nanard<bsegon...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I am not asking for an IA on a phone in Java :-)
>>>
>>
>>> But it would be great if for instance the phone would understand :
>>> "please I want to make a call" --> open contacts
>>> "call my borther" --> do the call/dial
>>> "i want to take a picture" --> open camera application
>>> "when did I send the last sms to Daniel" --> search into SMS messages

>>> & check with contacts& answer by voice.

>>>
>>
>>> I'm not asking about doing real conversations :-)
>>>
>>
>>> --
>>>
>>
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "TTS-for-Android" group.
>>> To post to this group, send email to tts-for...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

>>> tts-for-andro...@googlegroups.com<tts-for-android%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
>>> .