The future of TreeSheets: sponsorship & Open Source? your opinions needed!
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Wouter
Jul 21, 2009, 6:06:04 PM7/21/09
to TreeSheets
I have been thinking recently about the future of treesheets, and
wether it is possible to monetize it without annoying its users.
Please read and give your opinion!
In the good old days (we're talking the 80ies here), software got sold
in boxes without as much as a demo. You'd know what to buy from the
fact that there was very little choice in software to start with, and
abundant paper magazine reviews. This model of software is long dead,
maybe only the most well known of software (microsoft office?) can
still do this.
Then we had a period where time or functionality limited demos were
the norm. People would not buy software unless they were able to buy
it first. This form of software is still common, but is dying out.
People are less and less inclined to even try software if they know
that if they want to keep using it, they have to pay. They prefer
searching for free alternatives instead.
So todays prevalent model is that of "freemium" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemium
), i.e. you essentially give away the software for free, and charge
only a small percentage of users for a "pro" version that are really
fanatic users. The idea is that the fact that the software is free
will make it reach an order of magnitude more users than before, so
that small percentage will still be significant sales, compared to
trying to charge 100% of a much smaller group. Winamp, quicktime etc
are prime examples of this model.
In the back of my mind, I had thought that if TreeSheets ever gets
really popular, such a "freemium" model would be the best for it,
though frankly I haven't figured out what such a "pro" version would
entail. I don't quite like the idea of having to arbitrarily restrict
the feature set of the base version, I'd rather just have one version.
Also, the "freemium" idea seems to work best for apps that have a huge
user base, which I don't see TreeSheets ever attain (because it is too
much of a niche app).
So I recently thought of a new model that could work: sponsorship. The
idea is that people that really like TreeSheets and have an interest
in seeing it being developed further, would become a "TreeSheet
Sponsor", donate a base amount (100$ ?) or a multiple of it, and end
up on a "sponsors" page on the website. What you'd get out of that
would be:
- Your pride in showing your support for an application you like.
- Like sponsorship in other areas, it is a form of advertisement: your
listing on the "sponsors" page would come with a link to your site,
and, for sponsors of higher amounts (companies?) a logo or picture
next to your link. The sponsors page would be ordered in different
categories showing those with the biggest amounts first, further
helping this.
- Helping encourage further development: the larger the sponsorship
money, the more guaranteed development time I can put in.
- Have more of a say in the future direction: sponsors will have a
much heavier weighted "vote" in what feature is important/urgent. What
I actually implement is still at my discretion however, if you ask for
bouncing pink elephants you won't get them, wether you donated 1000$
or not. It would however be possible to sponsor specific features that
only you care for, after discussion with me, if we agree on an amount.
- Help to make TreeSheets Open Source, if a certain milestone in total
sponsorship is reached.
Of course, your sponsorship may have a different "meaning" depending
on how much others sponsor. If few people sponsor, it will mean more
exposure for you (smaller sponsors page). If many sponsor, your get
less exposure, but TreeSheets will see more development and
potentially becomes Open Source. So whatever happens is good for a
sponsor in at least one way.
What do y'all think? It sounds like a friendlier software model than
"freemium" to me. The question is wether it would work. With no direct
incentive to pay any money, would enough people want to sponsor? Is
"doing the right thing" still cool? :)
Wouter
wether it is possible to monetize it without annoying its users.
Please read and give your opinion!
In the good old days (we're talking the 80ies here), software got sold
in boxes without as much as a demo. You'd know what to buy from the
fact that there was very little choice in software to start with, and
abundant paper magazine reviews. This model of software is long dead,
maybe only the most well known of software (microsoft office?) can
still do this.
Then we had a period where time or functionality limited demos were
the norm. People would not buy software unless they were able to buy
it first. This form of software is still common, but is dying out.
People are less and less inclined to even try software if they know
that if they want to keep using it, they have to pay. They prefer
searching for free alternatives instead.
So todays prevalent model is that of "freemium" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemium
), i.e. you essentially give away the software for free, and charge
only a small percentage of users for a "pro" version that are really
fanatic users. The idea is that the fact that the software is free
will make it reach an order of magnitude more users than before, so
that small percentage will still be significant sales, compared to
trying to charge 100% of a much smaller group. Winamp, quicktime etc
are prime examples of this model.
In the back of my mind, I had thought that if TreeSheets ever gets
really popular, such a "freemium" model would be the best for it,
though frankly I haven't figured out what such a "pro" version would
entail. I don't quite like the idea of having to arbitrarily restrict
the feature set of the base version, I'd rather just have one version.
Also, the "freemium" idea seems to work best for apps that have a huge
user base, which I don't see TreeSheets ever attain (because it is too
much of a niche app).
So I recently thought of a new model that could work: sponsorship. The
idea is that people that really like TreeSheets and have an interest
in seeing it being developed further, would become a "TreeSheet
Sponsor", donate a base amount (100$ ?) or a multiple of it, and end
up on a "sponsors" page on the website. What you'd get out of that
would be:
- Your pride in showing your support for an application you like.
- Like sponsorship in other areas, it is a form of advertisement: your
listing on the "sponsors" page would come with a link to your site,
and, for sponsors of higher amounts (companies?) a logo or picture
next to your link. The sponsors page would be ordered in different
categories showing those with the biggest amounts first, further
helping this.
- Helping encourage further development: the larger the sponsorship
money, the more guaranteed development time I can put in.
- Have more of a say in the future direction: sponsors will have a
much heavier weighted "vote" in what feature is important/urgent. What
I actually implement is still at my discretion however, if you ask for
bouncing pink elephants you won't get them, wether you donated 1000$
or not. It would however be possible to sponsor specific features that
only you care for, after discussion with me, if we agree on an amount.
- Help to make TreeSheets Open Source, if a certain milestone in total
sponsorship is reached.
Of course, your sponsorship may have a different "meaning" depending
on how much others sponsor. If few people sponsor, it will mean more
exposure for you (smaller sponsors page). If many sponsor, your get
less exposure, but TreeSheets will see more development and
potentially becomes Open Source. So whatever happens is good for a
sponsor in at least one way.
What do y'all think? It sounds like a friendlier software model than
"freemium" to me. The question is wether it would work. With no direct
incentive to pay any money, would enough people want to sponsor? Is
"doing the right thing" still cool? :)
Wouter
Hardik
Jul 22, 2009, 2:09:56 AM7/22/09
to TreeSheets
You should adopt something in between the freemium and you sponsorship
strategy
1) Retain the sponsorship program so that whoever wants to add a
feature but doesnt know how to will just contact you and sponsor that
feature and get their feature added on a priority basis.( so even if
someone wants pink elephants you could do it for them if you feel upto
it ;) )
2) Give a free version which has most of the features that a normal
user would want and what you would like to offer treesheets users for
free
3) Keep the additional features that have been added for the sponsors
in the pro version which is a paid for version. As you are getting to
sell the feature you coded for a sponsor who also paid for it, you
could give the sponsor a discount for adding that feature.
4) Make the program open source so people who wish to and know how to
code, can customise it for their needs. Doing this keeps the option of
it always snowballing into something big, open.
That works best for all is what I think at the same time generating
cash flow for you to keep treesheets alive .
Hardik
On Jul 22, 3:06 am, Wouter <aardap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have been thinking recently about the future of treesheets, and
> wether it is possible to monetize it without annoying its users.
> Please read and give your opinion!
>
> In the good old days (we're talking the 80ies here), software got sold
> in boxes without as much as a demo. You'd know what to buy from the
> fact that there was very little choice in software to start with, and
> abundant paper magazine reviews. This model of software is long dead,
> maybe only the most well known of software (microsoft office?) can
> still do this.
>
> Then we had a period where time or functionality limited demos were
> the norm. People would not buy software unless they were able to buy
> it first. This form of software is still common, but is dying out.
> People are less and less inclined to even try software if they know
> that if they want to keep using it, they have to pay. They prefer
> searching for free alternatives instead.
>
> So todays prevalent model is that of "freemium" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemium
strategy
1) Retain the sponsorship program so that whoever wants to add a
feature but doesnt know how to will just contact you and sponsor that
feature and get their feature added on a priority basis.( so even if
someone wants pink elephants you could do it for them if you feel upto
it ;) )
2) Give a free version which has most of the features that a normal
user would want and what you would like to offer treesheets users for
free
3) Keep the additional features that have been added for the sponsors
in the pro version which is a paid for version. As you are getting to
sell the feature you coded for a sponsor who also paid for it, you
could give the sponsor a discount for adding that feature.
4) Make the program open source so people who wish to and know how to
code, can customise it for their needs. Doing this keeps the option of
it always snowballing into something big, open.
That works best for all is what I think at the same time generating
cash flow for you to keep treesheets alive .
Hardik
On Jul 22, 3:06 am, Wouter <aardap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have been thinking recently about the future of treesheets, and
> wether it is possible to monetize it without annoying its users.
> Please read and give your opinion!
>
> In the good old days (we're talking the 80ies here), software got sold
> in boxes without as much as a demo. You'd know what to buy from the
> fact that there was very little choice in software to start with, and
> abundant paper magazine reviews. This model of software is long dead,
> maybe only the most well known of software (microsoft office?) can
> still do this.
>
> Then we had a period where time or functionality limited demos were
> the norm. People would not buy software unless they were able to buy
> it first. This form of software is still common, but is dying out.
> People are less and less inclined to even try software if they know
> that if they want to keep using it, they have to pay. They prefer
> searching for free alternatives instead.
>
Malcolm Firth
Jul 22, 2009, 3:11:54 AM7/22/09
to trees...@googlegroups.com
Some good ideas here that will hopefully see Treesheets become more popular and grow in usefulness.
I always thought some kind of donation system ought to be implemented. Let people donate what they think it is worth. A base amount can be for sponsors .... but don't rule out those on slender means. Every little bit helps.
Mac
I always thought some kind of donation system ought to be implemented. Let people donate what they think it is worth. A base amount can be for sponsors .... but don't rule out those on slender means. Every little bit helps.
Mac
Jar
Jul 22, 2009, 12:02:27 PM7/22/09
to TreeSheets
You could make a "in the cloud version" that sync's a local .cts file
with a "cloud .cts file" and vice versa.
I have no idea how hard this would be but you could then charge for
the premium version that sync's the local .cts file a d the
server .cts file so all information is available from everywhere.
Evernote is doing that ....
Of course you have to host the server with all the trouble and money
you have to spend on that it might not be worth it.
Jeroen
with a "cloud .cts file" and vice versa.
I have no idea how hard this would be but you could then charge for
the premium version that sync's the local .cts file a d the
server .cts file so all information is available from everywhere.
Evernote is doing that ....
Of course you have to host the server with all the trouble and money
you have to spend on that it might not be worth it.
Jeroen
Wouter van Oortmerssen
Jul 22, 2009, 7:05:55 PM7/22/09
to trees...@googlegroups.com
Hardik,
I am not sure if the combination of the two would be a good idea,
as that still requires having two versions. One of the primary motivators
of my idea is seeing if we can just keep it at one version, where everyone
gets all the features. Seems much nicer to me.
Also, the idea of having two version doesn't combine well with Open Source.
Wouter
Wouter van Oortmerssen
Jul 22, 2009, 7:06:54 PM7/22/09
to trees...@googlegroups.com
Absolutely, there would definitely be a way to donate any amount, besides the sponsor idea.
Wouter
Wouter van Oortmerssen
Jul 22, 2009, 7:08:50 PM7/22/09
to trees...@googlegroups.com
In terms of the amount of work required to make such a "cloud"
version happen, that is a several times bigger project than what
TreeSheets already is. But it is definitely an idea that is in the back
of my head for cool things that could be done if TreeSheets gets
really popular.
Wouter
David Lynch
Jul 22, 2009, 10:29:40 PM7/22/09
to trees...@googlegroups.com
If nodes could be folded or collapsed, and if they could have html
link notes, it would be possible to pull in new cts or import in new
xml sub trees automatically.
link notes, it would be possible to pull in new cts or import in new
xml sub trees automatically.
maybe a one click button, could open outlook, and send the email to a
site like posterous, which could then be shared through friendfeed,
rather than building in house hosting, which comes with all it's own
limitations.
I'm ready to support $100, with a support page, I don't see it
either/or on including a support page. It would seem credit card or
check and/or check would be cool, paypal takes 5% I think.
David
JennyB
Jul 23, 2009, 4:56:20 AM7/23/09
to TreeSheets
On Jul 22, 8:11 am, Malcolm Firth <mnf1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Some good ideas here that will hopefully see Treesheets become more popular
> and grow in usefulness.
> I always thought some kind of donation system ought to be implemented. Let
> people donate what they think it is worth. A base amount can be for sponsors
> .... but don't rule out those on slender means. Every little bit helps.
> Mac
>
they manage to keep going.
Wouter van Oortmerssen
Jul 23, 2009, 1:58:32 PM7/23/09
to trees...@googlegroups.com
I think it would have to offer pretty streamlined integration (i.e.
automatic syncing with whatever device you have TreeSheets on)
for such a cloud service to make sense.
Wouter
Wouter van Oortmerssen
Jul 23, 2009, 3:00:23 PM7/23/09
to trees...@googlegroups.com
I have looked at DonationCoder extensively.
My impression of it is that it is a rather small group of authors making most
of the software on that site, and most software are really tiny utilities that
command small donations (on the order of dollars).
I really like the system though, in that they have these credits which you buy
once, and then can distribute among authors as you please (which reduces
the barrier of having to whip out your credit card for each individual bit of
software). However, this system would work best if LOTS of software authors
were associated with the site, and consequently LOTS of software users have
credits on the site they can spend. Currently that is far from the case.
Now, I could join donationcoder, but I feel TreeSheets as a more "substantial"
application would not fit in their economy of quick and easy apps. I am not
looking to make small dollar amounts from a few people, in that case, I'd
rather just keep it 100% free as it is. What the sponsor system is aimed at,
is making it significant enough to warrant more time investment compared
to what I am doing already.
Also, adopting their system instead of joining them wouldn't work, as their
main feature is being able to conveniently donate to many apps at once.
Pure "donations" also don't work well. I have tried that before with my free
(Open Source) game, Sauerbraten, which has had several million downloads,
and yet received a total of 100$ from 5 or so people in several months. I already
earn a steady income otherwise, so such small total amounts will not have
a useful impact.
Hence the idea of a "sponsor". I think making your association with the
software more visible will make it more attractive for people to be financially
involved.
Wouter
Alf
Jul 27, 2009, 1:50:13 AM7/27/09
to TreeSheets
In case TreeSheets is going OpenSource, sponsor system would be a good
choice before that because it doesn't create problems in the process
of going OpenSource.
Since TreeSheets is developing scripts for advanced usage, and not
every user is a programmer. Scripting service would be an alternatvie
method of monetizing it, just like Linux. Though you will not be the
only one being able to make money this way, and you may want to hire
somebody to do this but continue development yourself.
On Jul 22, 6:06 am, Wouter <aardap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have been thinking recently about the future of treesheets, and
> wether it is possible to monetize it without annoying its users.
> Please read and give your opinion!
>
> In the good old days (we're talking the 80ies here), software got sold
> in boxes without as much as a demo. You'd know what to buy from the
> fact that there was very little choice in software to start with, and
> abundant paper magazine reviews. This model of software is long dead,
> maybe only the most well known of software (microsoft office?) can
> still do this.
>
> Then we had a period where time or functionality limited demos were
> the norm. People would not buy software unless they were able to buy
> it first. This form of software is still common, but is dying out.
> People are less and less inclined to even try software if they know
> that if they want to keep using it, they have to pay. They prefer
> searching for free alternatives instead.
>
> So todays prevalent model is that of "freemium" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemium
choice before that because it doesn't create problems in the process
of going OpenSource.
Since TreeSheets is developing scripts for advanced usage, and not
every user is a programmer. Scripting service would be an alternatvie
method of monetizing it, just like Linux. Though you will not be the
only one being able to make money this way, and you may want to hire
somebody to do this but continue development yourself.
On Jul 22, 6:06 am, Wouter <aardap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have been thinking recently about the future of treesheets, and
> wether it is possible to monetize it without annoying its users.
> Please read and give your opinion!
>
> In the good old days (we're talking the 80ies here), software got sold
> in boxes without as much as a demo. You'd know what to buy from the
> fact that there was very little choice in software to start with, and
> abundant paper magazine reviews. This model of software is long dead,
> maybe only the most well known of software (microsoft office?) can
> still do this.
>
> Then we had a period where time or functionality limited demos were
> the norm. People would not buy software unless they were able to buy
> it first. This form of software is still common, but is dying out.
> People are less and less inclined to even try software if they know
> that if they want to keep using it, they have to pay. They prefer
> searching for free alternatives instead.
>
Wouter van Oortmerssen
Aug 6, 2009, 3:53:34 PM8/6/09
to trees...@googlegroups.com
>
> In case TreeSheets is going OpenSource, sponsor system would be a good
> choice before that because it doesn't create problems in the process
> of going OpenSource.
>
> Since TreeSheets is developing scripts for advanced usage, and not
> every user is a programmer. Scripting service would be an alternatvie
> method of monetizing it, just like Linux. Though you will not be the
> only one being able to make money this way, and you may want to hire
> somebody to do this but continue development yourself.
> In case TreeSheets is going OpenSource, sponsor system would be a good
> choice before that because it doesn't create problems in the process
> of going OpenSource.
>
> Since TreeSheets is developing scripts for advanced usage, and not
> every user is a programmer. Scripting service would be an alternatvie
> method of monetizing it, just like Linux. Though you will not be the
> only one being able to make money this way, and you may want to hire
> somebody to do this but continue development yourself.
I very much doubt there would be enough money in custom scripts.
Besides, that would make me a contract programmer, and the results of
my programming would not be available to all.
Contract programming is easy to make money with, but it is not what
I want to be doing necessarily. I prefer to make things that larger
audiences can use.
Wouter
Bob
Aug 7, 2009, 2:40:26 AM8/7/09
to TreeSheets
I think you might be able to score more donations from Treesheets than
an FPS since it's a different market. It's the kind of program people
who use in a business setting and there'd be more desire to donate
some money to keep it going.
My opinion, of course.
On Jul 23, 3:00 pm, Wouter van Oortmerssen <aardap...@gmail.com>
wrote:
an FPS since it's a different market. It's the kind of program people
who use in a business setting and there'd be more desire to donate
some money to keep it going.
My opinion, of course.
On Jul 23, 3:00 pm, Wouter van Oortmerssen <aardap...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Wouter van Oortmerssen
Aug 9, 2009, 7:48:25 PM8/9/09
to trees...@googlegroups.com
> I think you might be able to score more donations from Treesheets than
> an FPS since it's a different market. It's the kind of program people
> who use in a business setting and there'd be more desire to donate
> some money to keep it going.
I would think so too, it is a much smaller group, but probably people that
once they use it, use it for much longer on average.
Games get "consumed" :)
Wouter
Bill
Aug 17, 2009, 7:36:26 AM8/17/09
to TreeSheets
Sorry folks, been away on hols, but saw interesting discussion.
I would agree with this assessment - I think business users (such as
myself) would be much more likely to donate to promising projects. I
already contribute to a number of other projects (e.g. DFM2HTML,
EssentialPIM) with suggestions, beta feedback and, if I think they're
worth it, some sponsorship money. But building up a network of people
who recommend/refer the product is also essential, and for that
purpose I'd suggest creating a "TreeSheets" logo and code snippet that
people could paste into their websites, blogs etc. Can do a lot to
enhance your reputation, even if the money earned isn't awesome...
My two ha'p'orth.
Bill
myself) would be much more likely to donate to promising projects. I
already contribute to a number of other projects (e.g. DFM2HTML,
EssentialPIM) with suggestions, beta feedback and, if I think they're
worth it, some sponsorship money. But building up a network of people
who recommend/refer the product is also essential, and for that
purpose I'd suggest creating a "TreeSheets" logo and code snippet that
people could paste into their websites, blogs etc. Can do a lot to
enhance your reputation, even if the money earned isn't awesome...
My two ha'p'orth.
Bill
jschall
Aug 18, 2009, 2:52:14 PM8/18/09
to TreeSheets
On Jul 21, 6:06 pm, Wouter <aardap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Then we had a period where time or functionality limited demos were
> the norm. People would not buy software unless they were able to buy
> it first. This form of software is still common, but is dying out.
> People are less and less inclined to even try software if they know
> that if they want to keep using it, they have to pay. They prefer
> searching for free alternatives instead.
There are no alternatives - free or otherwise - for TreeSheets!
> Then we had a period where time or functionality limited demos were
> the norm. People would not buy software unless they were able to buy
> it first. This form of software is still common, but is dying out.
> People are less and less inclined to even try software if they know
> that if they want to keep using it, they have to pay. They prefer
> searching for free alternatives instead.
That model is still valid today, Wouter. I just paid $30US for RealVNC
Personal Edition simply to be able to do file transfer to and from my
home PC across the Net. And lots of game software still use the 7-day
time-limited demo.
No need to invent a fancy sponsorship scheme. Just allow users 30 days
to decide if it's worth $50 to them or their company.
- Jeff Schallenberg
Mont Saint-Hilaire, Québec
coolrat
Aug 19, 2009, 12:24:04 AM8/19/09
to TreeSheets
Hi
I would strongly suggest going with Open Source.
I'm a sociologist and quite interested in Open Source movement but up
to now, know little about it.
When you make something open source, the amount of social trust
increases dramatically. People believe in the software and know that
its not purely for-profit.
People like being having their voice heard, and are often happy to
contribute time to open source movements.
NoteCasePro has a free open source version, and a paid version as
well. Its developing rather quickly too and is multi-platform.
Right now, other than NoteCase Pro, there are not really any powerful
note-taking software for Linux. This is rather odd, considering the
huge popularity of Linux netbooks. A single powerful note-taking
software is all most people would really need on a small netbook with
limited memory and harddrive space.
I would guess that if you want to make Treesheets popular quickly,
make it open source, cross platform and USB-portable. You can ask for
donations, sell advertising perhaps, and sell a premium version that
offers special features (maybe something including online-syncing
between computers or something like that). Have a look at what
Mendeley is doing to attract the academic research crowd. They seem
to be doing everything right EXCEPT its not OpenSource.
Your software looks intriguing. I hope to test it more.
(I will be happy to donate if it has most of the features that I use
now in TreeDBNotes and I can import my data easily)
I would strongly suggest going with Open Source.
I'm a sociologist and quite interested in Open Source movement but up
to now, know little about it.
When you make something open source, the amount of social trust
increases dramatically. People believe in the software and know that
its not purely for-profit.
People like being having their voice heard, and are often happy to
contribute time to open source movements.
NoteCasePro has a free open source version, and a paid version as
well. Its developing rather quickly too and is multi-platform.
Right now, other than NoteCase Pro, there are not really any powerful
note-taking software for Linux. This is rather odd, considering the
huge popularity of Linux netbooks. A single powerful note-taking
software is all most people would really need on a small netbook with
limited memory and harddrive space.
I would guess that if you want to make Treesheets popular quickly,
make it open source, cross platform and USB-portable. You can ask for
donations, sell advertising perhaps, and sell a premium version that
offers special features (maybe something including online-syncing
between computers or something like that). Have a look at what
Mendeley is doing to attract the academic research crowd. They seem
to be doing everything right EXCEPT its not OpenSource.
Your software looks intriguing. I hope to test it more.
(I will be happy to donate if it has most of the features that I use
now in TreeDBNotes and I can import my data easily)
Wouter van Oortmerssen
Aug 19, 2009, 5:37:05 PM8/19/09
to trees...@googlegroups.com
> I would agree with this assessment - I think business users (such as
> myself) would be much more likely to donate to promising projects. I
> already contribute to a number of other projects (e.g. DFM2HTML,
> EssentialPIM) with suggestions, beta feedback and, if I think they're
> worth it, some sponsorship money. But building up a network of people
> who recommend/refer the product is also essential, and for that
> purpose I'd suggest creating a "TreeSheets" logo and code snippet that
> people could paste into their websites, blogs etc. Can do a lot to
> enhance your reputation, even if the money earned isn't awesome...
>
> My two ha'p'orth.
> Bill
I agree that it appears to be worth trying, from the feedback I have gotten
sofar.
As for a logo, maybe some kind of "I support TreeSheets" button for
donors/sponsors?
Wouter
Wouter van Oortmerssen
Aug 19, 2009, 6:17:18 PM8/19/09
to trees...@googlegroups.com
> There are no alternatives - free or otherwise - for TreeSheets!
Not in the sense of something that is exactly the same, no. But that
assumes that you have already discovered that TreeSheets is exactly
what you need, which most people don't know until they have tried
it extensively.
There are endless alternatives to TreeSheets out there, in the form of
mindmappers, outliners, tree databases, and even plain spreadsheets
and text editors. If you don't know TreeSheets, you could rightfully
assume those are just as good to get the job done.
Even though TreeSheets is unique in many ways, the function it performs
for its users is not unique (organizing data), which means it has a lot of
competition to overcome.
> That model is still valid today, Wouter. I just paid $30US for RealVNC
> Personal Edition simply to be able to do file transfer to and from my
> home PC across the Net. And lots of game software still use the 7-day
> time-limited demo.
>
> No need to invent a fancy sponsorship scheme. Just allow users 30 days
> to decide if it's worth $50 to them or their company.
But that is exactly what I observe in the marketplace: that you won't
know that TreeSheets is really worth paying for until you have tried it,
but a lot of people won't try something if they think something free will
do just as well.
I feel that if TreeSheets was a 30 day trial (or even a 90 day trial, doesn't
matter), that the amount of people trying it would go down *significantly*.
Even though data from TreeSheets is very easy to convert to other applications
once you decide you don't want to use it anymore, a lot of people would
feel the investment of putting their data into and learning how to use it
could be a waste if for some reason they don't feel like paying for it.
I feel its important that TreeSheets will always be completely free in some
way or other. I would love to have some money to support it, but at the
same time, I find it important that it gets widespread use too.
Wouter
Wouter van Oortmerssen
Aug 19, 2009, 7:35:16 PM8/19/09
to trees...@googlegroups.com
> I would strongly suggest going with Open Source.
> I'm a sociologist and quite interested in Open Source movement but up
> to now, know little about it.
> When you make something open source, the amount of social trust
> increases dramatically. People believe in the software and know that
> its not purely for-profit.
>
> People like being having their voice heard, and are often happy to
> contribute time to open source movements.
>
> NoteCasePro has a free open source version, and a paid version as
> well. Its developing rather quickly too and is multi-platform.
It seems to me this software is not very "open source", I only see
binary downloads. Even if source is available somehow, it does not
seem to combine well with a paid for version. If this program ever
got popular, it be real easy for the open source version to get forked,
and the most popular for pay features integrated in the free source.
> Right now, other than NoteCase Pro, there are not really any powerful
> note-taking software for Linux. This is rather odd, considering the
> huge popularity of Linux netbooks. A single powerful note-taking
> software is all most people would really need on a small netbook with
> limited memory and harddrive space.
>
> I would guess that if you want to make Treesheets popular quickly,
> make it open source, cross platform and USB-portable. You can ask for
Well, it already is the latter two. I would like to turn it around: Open
Source it if it looks like sponsorship money is sufficient.
> donations, sell advertising perhaps, and sell a premium version that
> offers special features (maybe something including online-syncing
> between computers or something like that). Have a look at what
> Mendeley is doing to attract the academic research crowd. They seem
> to be doing everything right EXCEPT its not OpenSource.
>
> Your software looks intriguing. I hope to test it more.
>
>
> (I will be happy to donate if it has most of the features that I use
> now in TreeDBNotes and I can import my data easily)
Let me know what is important to you in TreeDBNotes and you can't
do in TreeSheets.
As for importing, see if it can export hierarchical (indented) text, XML
or OPML or whatever.
Wouter
Saam Simpson
Sep 6, 2009, 12:15:58 PM9/6/09
to TreeSheets
I just want to know the software version,please add it.
it's important for me.
;)
it's important for me.
;)
Hardik
Sep 16, 2009, 4:46:27 AM9/16/09
to TreeSheets
no updates happening for some time now???? the open source issue isnt
resolved yet???
On Aug 20, 4:35 am, Wouter van Oortmerssen <aardap...@gmail.com>
wrote:
resolved yet???
On Aug 20, 4:35 am, Wouter van Oortmerssen <aardap...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Wouter van Oortmerssen
Sep 16, 2009, 1:12:12 PM9/16/09
to trees...@googlegroups.com
I was only gathering opinions with this post, I am not quite sure which direction
to go with.
Updates are independent from that. There is one in the works, but I am still wanting
to fix some bugs before it goes out.
Wouter
alx
Nov 14, 2009, 1:42:40 AM11/14/09
to TreeSheets
Coming from Windows, I am used to paying for useful software and will
support any business model you eventually choose to go for. That said,
my personal choice is either for 'freemium' pricing or some kind of a
service-related subscription model. A third favourite is sponsorhip/
donation. Here's a couple of examples of apps that I pay for through
such models, in case you are looking for ideas:
- Freemium: Notecase Pro (Notecase plain is open source) http://www.virtual-sky.com/
- Freemium/Subscription: Evernote Premium (Evernote is a free service/
app, but Premium users get additional functionality, mostly in the
online services) http://www.evernote.com/
That said, I'd add that if you don't necessarily want the money but
would appreciate some motivation, you could link a part or all of the
proceeds to a charity. An interesting take at this is TimeTo which has
specific pricing, but you get to choose whether your fee will go
towards Feature Improvement or the supported Charity:
http://www.davidberman.com/software/timeto.php
support any business model you eventually choose to go for. That said,
my personal choice is either for 'freemium' pricing or some kind of a
service-related subscription model. A third favourite is sponsorhip/
donation. Here's a couple of examples of apps that I pay for through
such models, in case you are looking for ideas:
- Freemium: Notecase Pro (Notecase plain is open source) http://www.virtual-sky.com/
- Freemium/Subscription: Evernote Premium (Evernote is a free service/
app, but Premium users get additional functionality, mostly in the
online services) http://www.evernote.com/
That said, I'd add that if you don't necessarily want the money but
would appreciate some motivation, you could link a part or all of the
proceeds to a charity. An interesting take at this is TimeTo which has
specific pricing, but you get to choose whether your fee will go
towards Feature Improvement or the supported Charity:
http://www.davidberman.com/software/timeto.php
Wouter van Oortmerssen
Nov 14, 2009, 5:05:43 PM11/14/09
to trees...@googlegroups.com
Alf,
TreeSheets does not have an online component, so the only way I could
make "freemium" work is to reserve certain features for the "pro" version,
which, like I said, I'd rather not do. I'd have to make some significant
features "pro" only to encourage people to buy it, yet that would also
cripple the free version too much.
For the moment, I have decided to keep treesheets fully free. I don't
think the userbase is big enough that a pro version (or a sponsorship
model) is going to make significant money.
Basically, if I can't make a lot of money, I'd rather be making no money
at all, it is simpler. I have a job, I don't depend on TreeSheets for income,
I guess the only thing is that if it did make a lot of money, I'd pour a lot
more time into it.
Wouter
Roy Grubb
Nov 15, 2009, 7:54:09 AM11/15/09
to TreeSheets
Wouter,
How about an iPhone version? You could charge a typical $4.99 for an
iPhone app., and keep the other versions free. If the iPhone version
could read TreeSheet files on local PCS over WiFi as some other iPhone
apps can, TreeSheets users with iPhones would probably buy it.
And iPhone users without TreeSheets on PCs might be drawn to it.
Roy
On Nov 14, 1:42 am, alx <symprax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Coming from Windows, I am used to paying for useful software and will
> support any business model you eventually choose to go for. That said,
> my personal choice is either for 'freemium' pricing or some kind of a
> service-related subscription model. A third favourite is sponsorhip/
> donation. Here's a couple of examples of apps that I pay for through
> such models, in case you are looking for ideas:
> - Freemium: Notecase Pro (Notecase plain is open source)http://www.virtual-sky.com/
How about an iPhone version? You could charge a typical $4.99 for an
iPhone app., and keep the other versions free. If the iPhone version
could read TreeSheet files on local PCS over WiFi as some other iPhone
apps can, TreeSheets users with iPhones would probably buy it.
And iPhone users without TreeSheets on PCs might be drawn to it.
Roy
On Nov 14, 1:42 am, alx <symprax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Coming from Windows, I am used to paying for useful software and will
> support any business model you eventually choose to go for. That said,
> my personal choice is either for 'freemium' pricing or some kind of a
> service-related subscription model. A third favourite is sponsorhip/
> donation. Here's a couple of examples of apps that I pay for through
> such models, in case you are looking for ideas:
> - Freemium/Subscription: Evernote Premium (Evernote is a free service/
> app, but Premium users get additional functionality, mostly in the
> online services)http://www.evernote.com/
> app, but Premium users get additional functionality, mostly in the
Wouter van Oortmerssen
Nov 18, 2009, 9:24:32 PM11/18/09
to trees...@googlegroups.com
I have definitely thought of an iPhone version.
The problem is that to make it usable, you need to completely redo
the UI, to the point where its almost a new app (if you notice, the
current UI requires a lot of precise clicking, and has lots of functionality
hidden in menus etc.). I am not sure how that would work, other than
providing excessive zooming.
I have an iPhone, and it continually surprises me how application writers
do not take precision of clicking into account with their UIs.
And no iPhone app would be complete without a painless way to sync
that data to your pc, etc.
I am also looking at some way to tie the web into it. Frankly, treesheets
would probably be more popular as a web app, since the amount of people
that use "productivity" apps on a single pc is rapidly declining. But
writing (complex) web apps as it stands is a total nightmare.
Wouter
alx
Nov 19, 2009, 12:13:33 AM11/19/09
to TreeSheets
Re iPhone: in my view the TreeSheets concept is excellent for small
screens. I would compare it with the work of your colleague Ben
Bederson with DateLens and more: http://www.windsorinterfaces.com/datelens.shtml
However, the fact that he didn't manage to make money out of it is not
very encouraging (DateLens was originally a paid app).
I don't think that you would have to get rid of the precise clicking,
just change the scale so that it's usable. In TreeSheets one starts
off with a 10x10 grid that takes up only a very small part of the
screen real estate, but could fit in nicely on a snartphone. You will
notice that I don't say iPhone as I am a Symbian user myself and have
many hopes for Nokia's updated QT cross-platform solution.
Re Web: Having in a previous message suggested that you provide an
online component for TreeSheets (and charging for it), I'm very glad
that you are giving it consideration. It's clear that at the moment
writing web apps that provide even partly comparative functionality to
desktop apps requires disproportional investment in development.
What's more, I expect that new technologies that will make things
easier are just around the corner. For example, I've had a try at the
Ulteo desktop and was quite impressed; why write separate under-
performing web apps when one will be able to get the real deal?
Alexander
On Nov 19, 4:24 am, Wouter van Oortmerssen <aardap...@gmail.com>
wrote:
screens. I would compare it with the work of your colleague Ben
Bederson with DateLens and more: http://www.windsorinterfaces.com/datelens.shtml
However, the fact that he didn't manage to make money out of it is not
very encouraging (DateLens was originally a paid app).
I don't think that you would have to get rid of the precise clicking,
just change the scale so that it's usable. In TreeSheets one starts
off with a 10x10 grid that takes up only a very small part of the
screen real estate, but could fit in nicely on a snartphone. You will
notice that I don't say iPhone as I am a Symbian user myself and have
many hopes for Nokia's updated QT cross-platform solution.
Re Web: Having in a previous message suggested that you provide an
online component for TreeSheets (and charging for it), I'm very glad
that you are giving it consideration. It's clear that at the moment
writing web apps that provide even partly comparative functionality to
desktop apps requires disproportional investment in development.
What's more, I expect that new technologies that will make things
easier are just around the corner. For example, I've had a try at the
Ulteo desktop and was quite impressed; why write separate under-
performing web apps when one will be able to get the real deal?
Alexander
On Nov 19, 4:24 am, Wouter van Oortmerssen <aardap...@gmail.com>
wrote:
David Lynch
Nov 19, 2009, 2:05:01 PM11/19/09
to trees...@googlegroups.com
Why not use a pay-per-view content model that is quite simple. For
proof of concept, lets say, a (purchased) cts link file can be
accessed for 3 months, but the TreeSheets app will not let you save
the encrypted file locally.
David
proof of concept, lets say, a (purchased) cts link file can be
accessed for 3 months, but the TreeSheets app will not let you save
the encrypted file locally.
David
Wouter van Oortmerssen
Nov 24, 2009, 6:56:10 PM11/24/09
to trees...@googlegroups.com
> Re iPhone: in my view the TreeSheets concept is excellent for small
> screens. I would compare it with the work of your colleague Ben
> Bederson with DateLens and more:
> http://www.windsorinterfaces.com/datelens.shtml
> However, the fact that he didn't manage to make money out of it is
> not
> very encouraging (DateLens was originally a paid app).
That's a very cool app, yes, I love fisheye style displays.
> screens. I would compare it with the work of your colleague Ben
> Bederson with DateLens and more:
> http://www.windsorinterfaces.com/datelens.shtml
> However, the fact that he didn't manage to make money out of it is
> not
> very encouraging (DateLens was originally a paid app).
Though I would have rotated it, such that you can have 1 liners for the
current week, not for "all wednesdays" as he has now.
> I don't think that you would have to get rid of the precise
> clicking,
> just change the scale so that it's usable. In TreeSheets one starts
> off with a 10x10 grid that takes up only a very small part of the
> screen real estate, but could fit in nicely on a snartphone. You
least with my clumsy fingers, I'd have to render stuff at
3x the size or so in pixels compared to what I do now. That
would shrink the effective res of the iphone display from
320x480 to 100x150 or so, not good compared to the 1900x1200
I use at home.
Of course, the real solution would be to change the UI such that
you don't need to make such clicks. I'd redo the interface such
that you don't need to click on grid borders ever, that text editing
is not "inline" but a special screen, etc. But that is a fair bit of
work, not a straight port.
> will
> notice that I don't say iPhone as I am a Symbian user myself and
> have
> many hopes for Nokia's updated QT cross-platform solution.
the iphone. It's a UI rewrite for every platform. Not likely to happen.
> Re Web: Having in a previous message suggested that you provide an
> online component for TreeSheets (and charging for it), I'm very glad
> that you are giving it consideration. It's clear that at the moment
> writing web apps that provide even partly comparative functionality
> to
> desktop apps requires disproportional investment in development.
> What's more, I expect that new technologies that will make things
> easier are just around the corner. For example, I've had a try at
> the
in a single language, which then get dynamically converted to whatever
spaghetti of html/css/javascript is required on the client side.
> Ulteo desktop and was quite impressed; why write separate under-
> performing web apps when one will be able to get the real deal?
> Alexander
Wouter
Wouter van Oortmerssen
Nov 24, 2009, 6:57:16 PM11/24/09
to trees...@googlegroups.com
That sounds a bit too forward thinking to me. TreeSheets has a relative
niche reach, its not quite "youtube for data" ready yet :P
Wouter
alx
Nov 25, 2009, 2:50:01 AM11/25/09
to TreeSheets
On Nov 25, 1:56 am, Wouter van Oortmerssen <aardap...@gmail.com>
wrote:
something like that before I invested in re-learning programming for
the web. I am reluctant to spend my time on platform-specific
languages.
wrote:
> Yeah, there are now some toolkits that allow you to write a webapp
> in a single language, which then get dynamically converted to whatever
> spaghetti of html/css/javascript is required on the client side.
That's brilliant! Can you suggest any such toolkit? I've been wanting
> in a single language, which then get dynamically converted to whatever
> spaghetti of html/css/javascript is required on the client side.
something like that before I invested in re-learning programming for
the web. I am reluctant to spend my time on platform-specific
languages.
David Lynch
Nov 25, 2009, 8:44:16 AM11/25/09
to trees...@googlegroups.com
Agreed, .. , but I'm also imagining
a view only,
maybe auto divided into sections (outlines/ pages/ like a power point).
and also a command such as ctrl+h, which will overlay an image of the
current nodes parents, so you can see the relative heirarchy of any
node without scrolling up again, I think is a simple and useful
feature to implement. It would require a separate draw routine, once
ctrl+h is pressed.
I think the utility of static non-write, and pay-per-content, could be
good for tutorials, textbooks, and learning applications. Since,
writing in trees can be a bit more time-consuming initially, and
tree-writing organization/style can be more author-centric than flat
texts, I think single-authorship may be a good model for monetization.
Also I've thought before, one of the reasons it is hard to monetize
articles, is because of their inherent static structure, that limits
self-discovery, and causes one to pay for chunks of text, they are no
longer interested in reading .. as such.
Wiki-style editing would obviously be a fully flexible long term goal,
but would require extensive tree-aids to the reader/writer, and auto
data-gathering. There are a number of reasons I think pay-per-view
model could be important initially.
> --
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TreeSheets" group.
> To post to this group, send email to trees...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to treesheets+...@googlegroups.com.
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>
>
>
a view only,
maybe auto divided into sections (outlines/ pages/ like a power point).
and also a command such as ctrl+h, which will overlay an image of the
current nodes parents, so you can see the relative heirarchy of any
node without scrolling up again, I think is a simple and useful
feature to implement. It would require a separate draw routine, once
ctrl+h is pressed.
I think the utility of static non-write, and pay-per-content, could be
good for tutorials, textbooks, and learning applications. Since,
writing in trees can be a bit more time-consuming initially, and
tree-writing organization/style can be more author-centric than flat
texts, I think single-authorship may be a good model for monetization.
Also I've thought before, one of the reasons it is hard to monetize
articles, is because of their inherent static structure, that limits
self-discovery, and causes one to pay for chunks of text, they are no
longer interested in reading .. as such.
Wiki-style editing would obviously be a fully flexible long term goal,
but would require extensive tree-aids to the reader/writer, and auto
data-gathering. There are a number of reasons I think pay-per-view
model could be important initially.
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TreeSheets" group.
> To post to this group, send email to trees...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to treesheets+...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/treesheets?hl=en.
>
>
>
Wouter van Oortmerssen
Dec 1, 2009, 6:21:43 PM12/1/09
to trees...@googlegroups.com
The most well known one is probably the google app engine: http://code.google.com/appengine/
However, to me wt seems more promising, because its not tied to google servers and can also
be used with C++: http://www.webtoolkit.eu/wt
Wouter
Gus
Dec 4, 2009, 9:16:00 AM12/4/09
to TreeSheets
Hi, just stumbled across this thread and have not even downloaded the
app yet but am intrigued and will take a look at it soon as I have
seen some good reviews.
Having spent many thousands of dollars/euros/pounds over the years on
software, much of which I hardly used soon after purchase I am much
more circumspect today, especially as most major needs are now so well
catered for and every new addition takes time to learn and risks
clogging up the machine. Niche apps are always interesting when they
can improve productivity, however, and I think the donation model is
good for that type of app. Once you feel you are really benefitting
from an app you can pay what you think it is worth, be that $5, $10 or
whatever. With some software I have donated 2 or 3 times when I have
appreciated upgrades or just realised it has saved me more than I
originally expected. MyPhoneExplorer comes to mind as something that
I could easily do without but am happy to pay $5 every now and then to
keep it going. Something that actually saves me time (as TreeSheets
might if I get over the learning curve) I would happily pay more.
Sure, some people will freeload but there are enough people around who
appreciate good work.
I wouldn't rule out PayPal - yes it is a little steep on charges but
it is more than just a payment processor and there is a lot to be said
for an easy secure model for small payments and impulse purchases. I
don't like giving card details to small developers because you just
never know. There is the google equivalent but I would guess they
have a much smaller userbase?
On Dec 1, 11:21 pm, Wouter van Oortmerssen <aardap...@gmail.com>
Wouter van Oortmerssen
Dec 9, 2009, 4:10:39 PM12/9/09
to trees...@googlegroups.com
Yeah, donations is the only model I am considering at the moment,
with those opting in to be mentioned on the web page effectively
"sponsors".
Using paypal is a good idea. There's no point in using more complicated
payment services, because there's no actual product being sold or registration
key handed over. If anyone has ways they would prefer paying over paypal,
let me know. I'll have a look at google checkout.
I'll get around making a donation page soon, and I'll demo it here for
feedback before it goes online. Seeing how successful (or not) that is
will be helpful in determining future direction.
Wouter
man101
Dec 11, 2009, 6:46:29 AM12/11/09
to TreeSheets
why not some Google ads in your web pages.. I think it will fetch you
more than donations.. More popular this becomes more income you get..
On Dec 10, 2:10 am, Wouter van Oortmerssen <aardap...@gmail.com>
wrote:
more than donations.. More popular this becomes more income you get..
On Dec 10, 2:10 am, Wouter van Oortmerssen <aardap...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Wouter van Oortmerssen
Dec 15, 2009, 5:02:14 PM12/15/09
to trees...@googlegroups.com
I have tried google ads in the past on another of my domains,
cubeengine.com,
which currently gets about 100x more hits than treesheets.com. It only
earned
about 1$ a day, so I took them off again.
Now treesheets is a more specific site, so earnings per visitor may be
higher,
but still, if past experience is anything to go by, it will not be worth it.
You really need to have mega-traffic on a site for google ads to be
worth it.
Wouter
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