Morgantown PRT system shut down by unusual behavior by passenger

[Jerry Schneider]

<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&q=http://www.dailymail.com/topStories7/200909100144&ct=ga&cd=wmKt69avhBQ&usg=AFQjCNHtKP-a-hH1KHpj192GAwSmGazntg>Power
outage, mischief shut down WVU monorail
Daily Mail - Charleston - Charleston,WV,USA
Some students had to find other transportation Wednesday afternoon
when a power outage shut down the Personal Rapid Transit system, or PRT.

[Jack Slade]

I thought Morgantown vehicles were battery powered. This article suggests that they get power from the guideway. If somebody does something to disable a vehicle, proper programing should take that vehicle out of service at the nearest exit, and let the others run. Program Glitch??   Jack Slade --- On Thu, 9/10/09, Jerry Schneider <j...@peak.org> wrote:

[Michael Weidler]

Hmm, I wonder who "WVU_Student" is?

--- On Thu, 9/10/09, Jerry Schneider <j...@peak.org> wrote:

From: Jerry Schneider <j...@peak.org> Subject: [t-i] Morgantown PRT system shut down by unusual behavior by passenger To: transport-...@googlegroups.com

[Michael Weidler]

No Jack, With a 3rd rail system, you need to shut down at least the local section of track if someone illegally exits the vehicle, so they don't "accidentally" get fried. --- On Thu, 9/10/09, Jack Slade <skytr...@rogers.com> wrote:

[Jack Slade]

There are no rails in the Morgantown system.  It has rubber wheels running on concrete surfaces, unless they have re-built the whole thing since I was there. That is the reason I asked the question.   Jack Slade --- On Sat, 9/12/09, Michael Weidler <pstr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Robbert Lohmann]

Jack,

Safety requires that if alarms are triggered (such as opening a door
of a vehicle in motion), that the vehicle is stopped immediately.
Unfortunately there is no opportunity to continue operating until the
vehicle is not disturbing operations, because it is a safety related
risk (which means immediate action). I assume this means the vehicle
is stopped immediately (although the article is oddly phrased, because
stopping the vehicle would be sufficient and there is no need to cut
power).

For the safety case you would have to assume that the stop is on the
guide way, stopping all the other vehicles behind you. And as the
passenger can now get out of the vehicle and walk around the guide
way, traffic from the opposing direction should be stopped as well to
avoid accidents (as none of the vehicles have obstacle detection). If
vehicles would have obstacle detection you might be able to argue to
the safety certification agency that you could continue to operate,
although at a lower speed, because any possible obstacles would be
detected.

Robbert

[Bengt Gustafsson]

Morgantown PRT runs on rubber wheels but has a three phase power rail
system with open rails so to cut power when someone exits a vehicle is
logical. That the system then looses track of where vehicles are is
probably due to the ancient technology level

On Sep 11, 1:14 am, Jerry Schneider <j...@peak.org> wrote:
> <http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&q=http://www.dailymail.com/topStories7...>Power

[Walter Brewer]

So dozens of PRT Pods are dashing along at< 2 seconds spacing and 60 mph. In
one someone opens a door.
What happens?
Or are passengers locked in to be released by whom when?

Walt Brewer

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robbert Lohmann" <rob...@2getthere.eu>
To: "transport-innovators" <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 4:44 AM
Subject: [t-i] Re: Morgantown PRT system shut down by unusual behavior by
passenger


>

[Dennis Manning]

I'd say locked in while in motion. Not too different in funcion than jet
aircraft doors.

Dennis

[Jerry Roane]

Walt

This is no different than any amusement park ride that runs every day.  The ride shuts down and security is sent to eject the person who wants to disrupt the ride.  There is always a need to have a thing you pull in an emergency that gets you out of the chamber or room you are in.  If you are traveling at 180 mph and you decide to break the glass and pull the thing you better expect to be stopped very quickly and have an emergency responder show up to deal with you.  It better be a heart attack or your hair is on fire or there would be some price to pay both to the operator of the equipment for devaluing his entire operation and also a payment is owed to the other people who are on the guideway you shutdown.  In our system someone acting out like this would only affect one guideway of a certain length so the problem would be isolated to a few on that guideway not the entire path through the city.  On a 16 mile long guideway at 137 foot spacing at 180 mph at maxed out traffic flow this act of vandalism would affect 802 people (assuming 1.3 persons per vehicle- the national average).  If each person were paid $5.00 for their wasted time and unnecessary drama of an emergency stop the offender on video tape would only owe them $4010.00.  Perhaps the amount owed to the operation of the system would be owed half of the personal inconvenience damages so cut a check for $6015.00 and call it even.

Why would someone open a door at 180 mph?  That seems like a stupid thing to attempt.  Making a financial link between bad action and debt owed seems equitable.  This ties back to the free discussion where linkages need to be made between money and expectations of service.  In my little story I added the break glass aspect so it is apparent that this is an irreversible act.  The glass shattered will trigger a lot of activity and someone needs to suck up and be responsible.  The cheaper thing for this person to do would be to wait 5.33 minutes to decide to open the door.  At the end of their journey the door opening will be free and not mess with others trying to live their lives.  Naturally the dollar amounts could be adjusted but I think five bucks for an unnecessary panic stop is about right.  To save money the offender should do his criminal mischief on the 2 mile long guideway so his upper bound on the check he gets to write at $750.00.  On a slow day at non peak his check amount may only be a hundred bucks.  As a ppp it would be simple to incorporate this financial program into the contract on day one.  If you want to use the guideway network you sign a contract that spells out the cost and responsibility of being stupid.  If you call Hong Kong on your cell phone and leave it on, your bill will be substantial and the contract you sign up front spells out your debt for doing this action. 

Jerry Roane

[Dennis Manning]

We also need to keep in mind the relative simplicity of the Morgantown
system. It's basically a single line. There isn't too much to keep in
operation if something goes wrong on that line. So there wasn't much
incentive to program the computer to keep some vehicles running in an
emergency. This obviously isn't the case for more extensive networks.

Which brings us back to the cloudy picture of control system capability of
the various budding systems.

Dennis

[Walter Brewer]

People do stupid things-----even on amusment park rides, where the significance to others in much less than a public transportation system

Wouldn't it be sufficient to shunt the offending pod immediataley to the nearest station w/o disturbing the whole parade? (Except maybe other pods shecualed to the same station reset to bypass.)Couldn't even fire be best handled that way?

[rober...@aol.com]

see attached for the next behavior problem PRT will have to solve.

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Brewer
To: transport-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Sep 13, 2009 1:05 pm
Subject: [t-i] Re: Morgantown PRT system shut down by unusual behavior by passenger



People do stupid things-----even on amusment park rides, where the significance to others in much less than a public transportation system

Wouldn't it be sufficient to shunt the offending pod immediataley to the nearest station w/o disturbing the whole parade? (Except maybe other pods shecualed to the same station reset to bypass.)Couldn't even fire be best handled that way?

 

 Walt Brewer


----- Original Message -----

From: Jerry Roane

To: transport-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 12:42 PM

Subject: [t-i] Re: Morgantown PRT system shut down by unusual behavior by passenger



Walt

This is no different than any amusement park ride that runs every day.  The ride shuts down and security is sent to eject the person who wants to disrupt the ride.  There is always a need to have a thing you pull in an emergency that gets you out of the chamber or room you are in.  If you are traveling at 180 mph and you decide to break the glass and pull the thing you better expect to be stopped very quickly and have an emergency responder show up to deal with you.  It better be a heart attack or your hair is on fire or there would be some price to pay both to the operator of the equipment for devaluing his entire operation and also a payment is owed to the other people who are on the guideway you shutdown.  In our system someone acting out like this would only affect one guideway of a certain length so the problem would be isolated to a few on that guideway not the entire path through the city.  On a 16 mile long guideway at 137 foot spacing at 180 mph at maxed out traffic flow this act of vandalism would affect 802 people (assuming 1.3 persons per vehicle- the national average).  If each person were paid $5.00 for their wasted time and unnecessary drama of an emergency stop the offender on video tape would only owe them $4010.00.  Perhaps the amount owed to the operation of the system would be owed half of the personal inconvenience damages so cut a check for $6015.00 and call it even.

Why would someone open a door at 180 mph?  That seems like a stupid thing to attempt.  Making a financial link between bad action and debt owed seems equitable.  This ties back to the free discussion where linkages need to be made between money and expectations of service.  In my little story I added the break glass aspect so it is apparent that this is an irreversible act.  The glass shattered will trigger a lot of activity and someone needs to suck up and be responsible.  The cheaper thing for this person to do would be to wait 5.33 minutes to decide to open the door.  At the end of their journey the door opening will be free and not mess with others trying to live their lives.  Naturally the dollar amounts could be adjusted but I think five bucks for an unnecessary panic stop is about right.  To save money the offender should do his criminal mischief on the 2 mile long guideway so his upper bound on the check he gets to write at $750.00.  On a slow day at non peak his check amount may only be a hundred bucks.  As a ppp it would be simple to incorporate this financial program into the contract on day one.  If you want to use the guideway network you sign a contract that spells out the cost and responsibility of being stupid.  If you call Hong Kong on your cell phone and leave it on, your bill will be substantial and the contract you sign up front spells out your debt for doing this action. 

Jerry Roane

[Roy Reynolds]

 

---

From: transport-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:transport-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of rober...@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 12:43 PM
To: transport-...@googlegroups.com

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.94/2367 - Release Date: 09/13/09 05:50:00

[Richard Gronning]

<snip>People do stupid things--
Amen!!!
<snip>Wouldn't it be sufficient to shunt the offending pod immediately to the nearest station?
Wouldn't that depend on how far the next station is?
<snip>Couldn't even fire be best handled that way?
You know, this question might not be an engineering question. It might be a question to be fought out between insurance companies and fire departments.
Or,................. lawyers!

[Walter Brewer]

### Comment ###

 

Walt Brewer

----- Original Message -----

From: Richard Gronning

To: transport-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 4:34 PM

Subject: [t-i] Re: Morgantown PRT system shut down by unusual behavior by passenger

<snip>People do stupid things--
Amen!!!
<snip>Wouldn't it be sufficient to shunt the offending pod immediately to the nearest station?

### A mature PRT would have spacing between stations no more than one mile. On ave that's 30 seconds to help/escape. Or at worse 60 seconds. ###

[Walter Brewer]

Gotcha!!

 

Then there are the chicken buses in Guatamala where at least it's only the chickens, and farm animals that ride on the roof.

Also a dozen or more in the bed of a pickup.

[Jack Slade]

That is my plan, because it can be done faster than any other response. I can understand the Morgantown situation.  Some of the guideway is at least 75 ft above a ravine, and I don't see what good it would do you to get out.  Beer-farts are bad, but not that fatal.   Jack Slade --- On Sun, 9/13/09, Walter Brewer <catc...@verizon.net> wrote:

[Jack Slade]

No problem. I already plan that no overloaded vehicle will leave the loading dock.  If you leave space enough in the station for somebody to climb on a roof, some idiot will do it. He might even stay on till he reaches the exit gate, where he becomes a spot on the wall.   Jack Slade --- On Sun, 9/13/09, rober...@aol.com <rober...@aol.com> wrote:

From: rober...@aol.com <rober...@aol.com> Subject: [t-i] Re: Morgantown PRT system shut down by unusual behavior by passenger

[Richard Gronning]

I can't argue with your concept for escape. Even at a 6 mile interval
you'd be at a station in 3 minutes. Does that negate all the previous
talk about walkways along-side of guideways?
Maybe I'll modify your view on how systems will be developed. After
numerous conversations with various people in this area I could see many
smaller systems going into major high density areas. They'll go in these
areas because they'll pay for themselves. After these areas are
established, then they'll be connected. This idea is organic. It'll mean
that the connecting routs may very well have gaps between stations of up
to 5 miles. And, I see this as a mature system.

Of course, your vision of a mature system is for a dense metropolitan
area. What happens when we want to connect outlying towns? A system may
have spaces something like 15 miles between stations. Or, for safety
sake, it could be specified that "escape stations" be placed every, say,
5-6 miles. What does the list think? What would be cheaper, stations
every 6 miles, or a walkway?

Dick

Walter Brewer wrote:
> ### Comment ###
>
> Walt Brewer
>
> ----- Original Message -----

> *From:* Richard Gronning <mailto:rgro...@gofast.am>
> *To:* transport-...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:transport-...@googlegroups.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, September 13, 2009 4:34 PM
> *Subject:* [t-i] Re: Morgantown PRT system shut down by unusual

[Walter Brewer]

Physical failure of a pod that blocks travel on a guideway was the basis for
the earlier discussions.

Yes at Jerry's 3 miles/minute times get even shorter.

Walt Brewer

----- Original Message -----

From: "Richard Gronning" <rgro...@gofast.am>
To: <transport-...@googlegroups.com>

[Jay Andress]

This discussion points out the serious safety flaws with a supported system. The Morgantown System can fry people. There was a case of 20 people electrocuted during a subway crash in the 1920's in NYC. This is probably why the Magnemotion system, although a supported system uses overhead electric lines. I imagine that ULTRA and Masdar are using battery recharge systems instead of electric lines for similar reasons.

--
new contact info: jay.a...@monomobile.com

[Kirston Henderson]

on 9/13/09 9:01 PM, Jay Andress at andre...@gmail.com wrote:

This discussion points out the serious safety flaws with a supported system. The Morgantown System can fry people. There was a case of 20 people electrocuted during a subway crash in the 1920's in NYC. This is probably why the Magnemotion system, although a supported system uses overhead electric lines. I imagine that ULTRA and Masdar are using battery recharge systems instead of electric lines for similar reasons.  See the following url:  http://megarail.com/High_Speed_Rail/Power_Propulsion/

   The above is not universally true.  Our MegaRail® family of systems use power rails that are contained inside the enclosed rail tubes at each side of the guideway.  A passenger needing to escape a stopped or burning car on the guideway can safely exit via the fold-down end door ramps and walk between the side rail tubes without danger of contacting the power rails.  See the following url:  http://megarail.com/High_Speed_Rail/Power_Propulsion/

Kirston Henderson
MegaRail®

[Dennis Manning]

Jay:

 

Your stretching it. Morgantown with a near perfect safety record for over 30 years??? NYC subway back in the 20s??? Pure speculation re ULTra and Masdar design choices. The main driver as stated by ULtra was to seek off the shelf technology. Serious safety problems with supported systems??? You'll have to do better than that. 

 

Dennis

[Jack Slade]

Even for distances involved in connecting towns there has to be exit/entrances ro serve all the people who live in between the towns, just as there are interchanges for the Interstate Highways. Ot is not just a matter of providing service to them; they are paying customers, and I need them all.   What distance apart?  Stations are cheaper than interchanges, so I would aim for every 2  or 3 miles, depending on population of various areas.   These are not necessarily stations where people would get off and walk away.  Usually, cars would leave the high-speed line here and move onto the lower-speed lines that serve their areas.   This would be my long-term plan.  First priority, as you suggest, is serving the downtown cores where most congestion is, because that's where most of the people are, which is also where it is easiest to make profits. Profits means money to expand.   Jack Slade   --- On Mon, 9/14/09, Richard Gronning <rgro...@gofast.am> wrote:

[Jack Slade]

I doubt if the Morgantown system can fry people. I think the vehicles are battery powered. Somebody on this list worked on that system. Wasn't it Roy Reynolds?  Comment?   Jack Slade --- On Mon, 9/14/09, Jay Andress <andre...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Marsden Burger]

Here is an image of the power pickups on the Morgantown vehicle.

 

 

Best wishes,

 

Marsden

 

---

</table

 

[Robbert Lohmann]

Jack,

With regard to fire you might want to bring the vehicle to the nearest
station, but the safety case will have to consider what this means.
While you might be helping the people on-board, bringing a burning
vehicle into the station might actually jeopardize more people than
stopping the vehicle on track.

Which means you can only bring the vehicle into a station where fire-
fighters are present to address the issue. Most stations will not
feature personnel (otherwise there is no reason avoiding putting
drivers in the vehicles), so the vehicle will have to wait until the
fire fighters are actually there ;-)

Or you would have to define selected stations where trained personnel
is available. Assuming this is only 1 in so many stations, would it
still be best to drive to that station or wouldn't it be simpler to
just stop on the guide way? Especially in light of the likeliness of
this event to occur.

As for the batteries: for us this has been a technology push decision.
We worked with free ranging vehicles in the past and will continue to
do so. Installing a rail takes away all our advantages in terms of
flexibility. Which is one of our USPs. We are looking into inductive
power transfer to the vehicles by means of an embedded cable; this is
harmless to anybody accessing the guide way though.

Robbert

[eph]

Is inductive power transfer preferable over LIM or LSM in the road? A
reaction plate/magnet array on the bottom of vehicles and regenerative
charging/power can be used if needed (this probably doesn't result in
better power transfer, but better motive transfer). Same idea as
Vectus but with more freedom.

F.

[Jay Andress]

Dennis,

 

   In college I was on the volunteer fire department and ambulance squad. We responded to many car accidents. Believe me when I say that a serious rear-end accident with metal and victims and severed electric lines would be a disaster. How do you fight a vehicle fire...with lots of water.

    I'm not saying that a supported system is impossible. But it would have to have many safety features.

                                                           Jay

[eph]

Why is a suspended system not vulnerable? If a crash creates "severed
electric lines", why would a suspended system not suffer the same
fate?

F.

On Sep 14, 11:46 am, Jay Andress <andress....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dennis,
>
>    In college I was on the volunteer fire department and ambulance squad. We
> responded to many car accidents. Believe me when I say that a serious
> rear-end accident with metal and victims and severed electric lines would be
> a disaster. How do you fight a vehicle fire...with lots of water.
>     I'm not saying that a supported system is impossible. But it would have
> to have many safety features.
>                                                            Jay
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 2:18 AM, Dennis Manning

> <john.manni...@comcast.net>wrote:

>
>
>
> >  Jay:
>
> > Your stretching it. Morgantown with a near perfect safety record for over
> > 30 years??? NYC subway back in the 20s??? Pure speculation re ULTra and
> > Masdar design choices. The main driver as stated by ULtra was to seek off
> > the shelf technology. Serious safety problems with supported systems???
> > You'll have to do better than that.
>
> > Dennis
>
> >  ----- Original Message -----

> > *From:* Jay Andress <andress....@gmail.com>
> > *To:* transport-...@googlegroups.com
> >   *Sent:* Sunday, September 13, 2009 7:01 PM
> > *Subject:* [t-i] Re: Morgantown PRT system shut down by unusual behavior

> > by passenger
>
> > This discussion points out the serious safety flaws with a supported
> > system. The Morgantown System can fry people. There was a case of 20 people
> > electrocuted during a subway crash in the 1920's in NYC. This is probably
> > why the Magnemotion system, although a supported system uses overhead
> > electric lines. I imagine that ULTRA and Masdar are using battery recharge
> > systems instead of electric lines for similar reasons.
>

> > On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 7:08 PM, Jack Slade <skytrek_...@rogers.com>wrote:
>
> >>   No problem. I already plan that no overloaded vehicle will leave the
> >> loading dock.  If you leave space enough in the station for somebody to
> >> climb on a roof, some idiot will do it. He might even stay on till he
> >> reaches the exit gate, where he becomes a spot on the wall.
>
> >> Jack Slade
>

> >> --- On *Sun, 9/13/09, robertp...@aol.com <robertp...@aol.com>* wrote:

> > new contact info: jay.andr...@monomobile.com
>
> --
> new contact info: jay.andr...@monomobile.com

[Jay Andress]

Jack,

 

   We stopped in Morgantown in April, on our way to Washington DC. The electric lines are pretty exposed and I believe that they would kill someone who leaned up against them.

   Overall my impression of Morgantown PRT was very favorable. The stations were attractive and the vehicles were clean and efficient. The ticketing and fare collection system was very well done and easy to understand. Despite the rumblings of a few students I imagine that the overall opinion is favorable. The campus is on a mountain ridge which makes it very inaccessible and very little room for parking.

   It is actually not a PRT system but a GRT. Each vehicle must hold about 40 people!

 

                                                                                    Jay

[Jay Andress]

The power lines are at the very top of the track, so it would be very unusual for there to be any damage. It is conceivable but unlikely.

[Michael Weidler]

A third rail is a power supply, Jack. The name derives from the typical use which is on Metrorails such as Wash DC. Essentially, a paddles inserts into a high voltage power supply along the side of the guideway. --- On Sat, 9/12/09, Jack Slade <skytr...@rogers.com> wrote:

From: Jack Slade <skytr...@rogers.com> Subject: [t-i] Re: Morgantown PRT system shut down by unusual behavior by passenger To: transport-...@googlegroups.com

Date: Saturday, September 12, 2009, 11:56 PM There are no rails in the Morgantown system.  It has rubber wheels running on concrete surfaces, unless they have re-built the whole thing since I was there. That is the reason I asked the question.   Jack Slade --- On Sat, 9/12/09, Michael Weidler <pstr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Michael Weidler <pstr...@yahoo.com> Subject: [t-i] Re: Morgantown PRT system shut down by unusual behavior by passenger To: transport-...@googlegroups.com

Received: Saturday, September 12, 2009, 3:51 PM No Jack, With a 3rd rail system, you need to shut down at least the local section of track if someone illegally exits the vehicle, so they don't "accidentally" get fried. --- On Thu, 9/10/09, Jack Slade <skytr...@rogers.com> wrote:

From: Jack Slade <skytr...@rogers.com> Subject: [t-i] Re: Morgantown PRT system shut down by unusual behavior by passenger To: transport-...@googlegroups.com

Date: Thursday, September 10, 2009, 11:54 PM I thought Morgantown vehicles were battery powered. This article suggests that they get power from the guideway. If somebody does something to disable a vehicle, proper programing should take that vehicle out of service at the nearest exit, and let the others run. Program Glitch??   Jack Slade --- On Thu, 9/10/09, Jerry Schneider <j...@peak.org> wrote:

From: Jerry Schneider <j...@peak.org> Subject: [t-i] Morgantown PRT system shut down by unusual behavior by passenger To: transport-...@googlegroups.com

Received: Thursday, September 10, 2009, 11:14 PM <http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&q=http://www.dailymail.com/topStories7/200909100144&ct=ga&cd=wmKt69avhBQ&usg=AFQjCNHtKP-a-hH1KHpj192GAwSmGazntg>Power outage, mischief shut down WVU monorail Daily Mail - Charleston - Charleston,WV,USA Some students had to find other transportation Wednesday afternoon when a power outage shut down the Personal Rapid Transit system, or PRT.

[Michael Weidler]

Walt, You need to bear in mind that Morgantown is not a network application. The system has very limited passing capabilities outside the stations. For a large network with multiple paths, i would expect only the section which has the "disabled" vehicle to shut down. Remaining traffic would be routed around the affected section. What happens after that depends on how the system is set up.

--- On Sun, 9/13/09, Walter Brewer <catc...@verizon.net> wrote:

From: Walter Brewer <catc...@verizon.net> Subject: [t-i] Re: Morgantown PRT system shut down by unusual behavior by passenger To: transport-...@googlegroups.com

Date: Sunday, September 13, 2009, 8:57 AM

So dozens of PRT Pods are dashing along at< 2 seconds spacing and 60 mph. In one someone opens a door. What happens? Or are passengers locked in to be released by whom when? Walt Brewer ----- Original Message -----

From: "Robbert Lohmann" <rob...@2getthere.eu> To: "transport-innovators" <transport-...@googlegroups.com> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 4:44 AM Subject: [t-i] Re: Morgantown PRT system shut down by unusual behavior by passenger >

[Michael Weidler]

ROFLMAO! Not likely unless the cab is a very bad design. First there is very little area on which to stand. Second, how do you get on the thing in the first place? Third, if the roof is curved, good luck staying on.

--- On Sun, 9/13/09, rober...@aol.com <rober...@aol.com> wrote:

From: rober...@aol.com <rober...@aol.com> Subject: [t-i] Re: Morgantown PRT system shut down by unusual behavior by passenger

[Michael Weidler]

To start with, it would need a dry extinguisher system. The last thing you want to do is mix water and electricity.

--- On Mon, 9/14/09, Jay Andress <andre...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Walter Brewer]

Yes dozens of pods at < 2 seconds------- is hardy Morgantown.

[Marsden Burger]

There is always many ways to do anything…..

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_rail

 

Best wishes,

 

Marsden

 

---

</table

 

[Kirston Henderson]

on 9/14/09 10:33 AM, Robbert Lohmann at rob...@2getthere.eu wrote:

> Jack,
>
> With regard to fire you might want to bring the vehicle to the nearest
> station, but the safety case will have to consider what this means.
> While you might be helping the people on-board, bringing a burning
> vehicle into the station might actually jeopardize more people than
> stopping the vehicle on track.
>
> Which means you can only bring the vehicle into a station where fire-
> fighters are present to address the issue. Most stations will not
> feature personnel (otherwise there is no reason avoiding putting
> drivers in the vehicles), so the vehicle will have to wait until the
> fire fighters are actually there ;-)

If you have a fire on board any vehicle, you must stop that vehicle ASAP
and allow people to get out of the car. Otherwise, people will likely die
or be seriously injured.

Kirston Henderson
MegaRail®

[Jerry Roane]

Kirston

You don't even have to supply instructions.  People will figure this one out quickly when properly motivated.  When your hair is on fire you will do anything and everything possible to put it out ignoring all instruction booklets and signage. 

A common sense companion to this is to make cars that don't burn well.  Self extinguishing materials or nonflammable materials should be used wherever possible.  Our cars will be sans cigarette lighters and will have no ash trays.  I think our customer base will not be smokers so no loss of customers with this decision.  Of course the customer can bring his own ignitable materials and lighter if he really wants to set a fire.  His video image will be streaming the whole time so his stay in prison will be the next stop if the fire is on purpose.  With battery power limited to the energy sipping concept the energy to continue a flame on fire retardant materials will end after a few moments.  Each car will have an appropriate fire extinguisher as should all cars.  Race cars and boats require them.  Finally if there is still a flame there is a decent rope and handle so you can bail.  The cars will come to an emergency stop along that section of guideway so no one will be running you down. 

Naturally safety needs lots of thought and backup to the backup.  An escape method or three is called for.

Jerry Roane

[Richard Gronning]

I wonder if anybody would like a good idea about preventing fires in car
collisions.(???) It might even lessen the fire hazard of PRT. If/when
cars get into accidents, gas lines rupture. Many times wires are broken
too. When this happens, a spark occurs and there's a fire or explosion.
An old, now gone, engineer friend of mine named Mat Krieter said that
this type of occurrence could be diminished by a whopping % by merely
disconnecting the battery. It would be simple to just hook a line to the
same sensor that fires the air bags. The battery would be disconnected.
I ran the idea by a firm that makes battery cables. They didn't think
that the idea was worth anything.

I do!

Maybe it might lessen PRT hazards if any type of collision were to occur
if batteries and power were to be disconnected in this manner.

Dick

Michael Weidler wrote:
> To start with, it would need a dry extinguisher system. The last thing
> you want to do is mix water and electricity.
>

> --- On *Mon, 9/14/09, Jay Andress /<andre...@gmail.com>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: Jay Andress <andre...@gmail.com>
> Subject: [t-i] Re: Morgantown PRT system shut down by unusual
> behavior by passenger
> To: transport-...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Monday, September 14, 2009, 8:46 AM
>
> Dennis,
>
> In college I was on the volunteer fire department and ambulance
> squad. We responded to many car accidents. Believe me when I say
> that a serious rear-end accident with metal and victims and
> severed electric lines would be a disaster. How do you fight a
> vehicle fire...with lots of water.
> I'm not saying that a supported system is impossible. But it
> would have to have many safety features.
> Jay
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 2:18 AM, Dennis Manning
> <john.m...@comcast.net

> </mc/compose?to=john.m...@comcast.net>> wrote:
>
> Jay:
>
> Your stretching it. Morgantown with a near perfect safety
> record for over 30 years??? NYC subway back in the 20s??? Pure
> speculation re ULTra and Masdar design choices. The main
> driver as stated by ULtra was to seek off the shelf
> technology. Serious safety problems with supported systems???
> You'll have to do better than that.
>
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----

> *From:* Jay Andress </mc/compose?to=andre...@gmail.com>
> *To:* transport-...@googlegroups.com
> </mc/compose?to=transport-...@googlegroups.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, September 13, 2009 7:01 PM
> *Subject:* [t-i] Re: Morgantown PRT system shut down by

> unusual behavior by passenger
>
> This discussion points out the serious safety flaws with a
> supported system. The Morgantown System can fry people.
> There was a case of 20 people electrocuted during a subway
> crash in the 1920's in NYC. This is probably why the
> Magnemotion system, although a supported system uses
> overhead electric lines. I imagine that ULTRA and Masdar
> are using battery recharge systems instead of electric
> lines for similar reasons.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 7:08 PM, Jack Slade
> <skytr...@rogers.com

> </mc/compose?to=skytr...@rogers.com>> wrote:
>
> No problem. I already plan that no overloaded vehicle
> will leave the loading dock. If you leave space
> enough in the station for somebody to climb on a roof,
> some idiot will do it. He might even stay on till he
> reaches the exit gate, where he becomes a spot on the
> wall.
>
> Jack Slade
>

> --- On *Sun, 9/13/09, rober...@aol.com
> </mc/compose?to=rober...@aol.com>
> /<rober...@aol.com

[Jack Slade]

That may be the new system, after the upgrade that took place this year, but It is not what I saw 6 years ago.   Jack Slade --- On Mon, 9/14/09, Marsden Burger <Cabint...@msn.com> wrote:

Best wishes,   Marsden

--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "transport-innovators" group. To post to this group, send email to transport-...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to transport-innova...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/transport-innovators?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---

[Jack Slade]

I follow your thinking, Robertt, but consider the following points:   1.  I don't plan on building any vehicles that can be set on fire by anything colder than a blow-torch.   2.  If somebody wants to start a fire this way, it is intentional, and I don't really care what happens to him.   3.  There will never be any people waiting in the arrival area....they will be in the departure section of the platform.   I think your idea of sticking with batteries is correct. I think your experiment with induced power is a waste of money. I know that people are using harmonized transformers with some results, which is OK if you are using an electric razor,  but it will be a failure when larger amounts of power are needed......unless you can invent a way of focusing the magnetic field from a transformer in one particular direction.  This technology has escaped us, so far.   I am very interested in the nano-tube batteries, and especially the latest finding that filling the tubes with sulphur triples their capacity.  I am disappointed that none of the recent Govt money giveaway did not go to a crash program of bringing this technology to production ASAP.   There is one other new battery  that somebody posted information about 6 months ago that I have lost track of, but it looked good>   Jack Slade   --- On Mon, 9/14/09, Robbert Lohmann <rob...@2getthere.eu> wrote:

From: Robbert Lohmann <rob...@2getthere.eu> Subject: [t-i] Re: Morgantown PRT system shut down by unusual behavior by passenger

[Jack Slade]

I do have a contact at Morgantown, so I think I will ask him a couple of questions.

[Jack Slade]

Perhaps I didn't say it correctly: When I saw the system a few years ago there was no third rail. There was also no first or second rails. There were NO rails.   Jack Slade

[Marsden Burger]

 

Jack,

 

In this early Morgantown photo, taken form Jerry’s site, you can see how one might not notice the power rails as they are tucked tight against the guideway walls.  Here you can see them on the wall away from the station platform.  You can see these same rails on the other side of the color picture that was sent earlier.

 

I have always believed that PRT supporters have set the cause of small vehicle systems back significantly by indicating that Morgantown was not “true” PRT and down-playing the significance of this system.  I believe it remains the most advanced operating transit system in the world and not to identify this as such does not help, and has not helped, the introduction of new technology.  In the real world, institutional resistance has been able to overwhelm technological change, and still does.  Technologists are looking for a better “transit mouse trap” to overwhelm the governmental transit bureaucracy, which in reality has no interest in catching mice.

 

Fully understanding the most important example of small vehicle system operation in the world is a good point to start in an effort to improve on it.

 

Best wishes,

 

Marsden

 

 

[Robbert Lohmann]

Jack; seems we agree.

Please note though that when you build a system of which you claim you
can't put it on fire without a blow-torch, you still have to proof
this. Unfortunately that is what safety cases require. And often
enough they will claim that you can't foresee what is going to set the
vehicle on fire (and in a sense that is correct) and hence you have to
account for anything that can happen ;-(

The requirement I understood f is that the vehicle has to be flame
resistant for a duration that is three (or five) times the value that
it takes for passengers to disembark the vehicle at a station. Which
makes it a lot easier for PRT to meet this requirement than for a
fully loaded Metro!

And although you personally don't care for somebody that sets the
vehicle on fire intentionally, you might need to from a system
perspective, because the fatality will count in the statistics, making
it hard for you to achieve the Safety Integrity Level required...

Robbert

[Jack Slade]

I agree with your comments, and I do see how I missed seeing those wires. My vantage point only gave me a view of one side of the guideway, and I was there on a weekend when the system was not operating. Morgantown is the perfect put-down for anybody who says small vehicles won't have enough capacity, and rant about other faults. It has been operating for almost 40 years with no problems or fatalaties, and recent passenger figures puts it up there with most LRT and train's daily figures.   Jack Slade

Best wishes,   Marsden