British version of Wuppertal - making significant progress in the U.K.

[Jerry Schneider]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOQyFYXQSEQ 53,730 views, 57 likes
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 11:26:12 -0800
To: m-m...@dircon.co.uk
From: Jerry Schneider <j...@peak.org>
Subject: Re: New Vectus PRT Video

At 05:06 PM 2/4/2012, you wrote:
>Jerry ,
>We have made good progress with Cardiff City
>Council agreeing the most difficult part of the
>route. There are elections in May so the outline
>planning has to be held back till then but
>planning has agreed to work through all the
>necessay difficulties with us so that outline
>planning will be a foregone conclusion. The
>environmental assessment can also be submitted
>at outline planning stage. It's a two stage
>process outline first and full planning some
>time later maybe a year, in time to start construction on site.
>We have two potential investors wanting to buy
>the entire £122mm Private Debenture shares with
>a 5% stock option. Its a bit of a frenzied fight.
>I think its very important we complete the
>development of MonoMetro, the world needs it
>now. Its a simple railway and no technology to
>worry about. New system old technology. Metal to
>metal wheel rail interface proven in bearings
>applications, rolled rail section where the
>rolling "patch" contact geometry renders such an
>effectively low rolling point load that
>threshold of excitation leading to Hysterisis is
>never breached thus eliminating wear significantly over conventional
>rail.

>We also have the high speed test track route in
>early stage of planning negotiations. We
>presented the route and we are waiting to hear
>from the County Council planning department.
>Mech Engineering informs me their design
>criteria for the bogies will be 140km/h. So with
>both high speed and urban test track routes in
>place we can tender for a wide spectrum of projects. Easy as she goes.
>Best regards,
>Gareth

- Jerry Schneider -
Innovative Transportation Technologies
http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans

[Jack Slade]

Isn't this the same City Council that didn't like UlTra because of visual intrusion?   Jack Slade

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "transport-innovators" group. To post to this group, send email to transport-...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to transport-innovators+unsub...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/transport-innovators?hl=en.

[Dennis Manning]

Speaking of Britain I heard yesterday that they have rejected maglev in
favor of steel wheel for a national high speed rail network. Anyone been
following that? Got an update?

Dennis

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jerry Schneider" <j...@peak.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 9:22 AM
To: <transport-...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: [t-i] British version of Wuppertal - making significant progress in
the U.K.

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOQyFYXQSEQ 53,730 views, 57 likes

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "transport-innovators" group.
> To post to this group, send email to
> transport-...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> transport-innova...@googlegroups.com.

[Dennis Manning]

I seem to recall some newly elected politician that didn't know much about PRT came into office and derailed the funding plans. So ULTra had to look beyond Cardiff for an initial project.

 

Dennis

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to transport-innova...@googlegroups.com.

[Bruff]

Except for the You Tube video and FaceBook, MonoMetro is non-existent.
Moreover, it leaves me wondering what's different about it and what
(seems like) an almost identical system built for the 1963 NY World's
Fair http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjRgX37N-_E&feature=related --
which, before a committee got hold of it, was actually PRT
http://www.monorails.org/tmspages/Santa.html
I recently visited the latter, now a defunct Santa's Village turned
wood salvage yard, and found the entire ride still up and, except for
a coat of paint, actually looking 'runable'. Turns out that the ride
was actually sold on eBay, but the new owner defaulted. The place is
overseen by a Grizzly Adams lookalike, who is none too happy about
entertaining visitors. So if you want to visit, bring your binocs and
stay outside on the road. Better still, stay home and Google
Streetview it. You'll see more.

Dave Brough


On Feb 15, 9:51 am, "Dennis Manning" <john.manni...@comcast.net>
wrote:

> I seem to recall some newly elected politician that didn't know much about PRT came into office and derailed the funding plans. So ULTra had to look beyond Cardiff for an initial project.
>
> Dennis
>
> From: Jack Slade
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 9:54 AM
> To: transport-...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [t-i] British version of Wuppertal - making significant progress in the U.K.
>
>       Isn't this the same City Council that didn't like UlTra because of visual intrusion?
>
>       Jack Slade
>
>       --- On Tue, 2/14/12, Jerry Schneider <j...@peak.org> wrote:
>
>         From: Jerry Schneider <j...@peak.org>
>         Subject: [t-i] British version of Wuppertal - making significant progress in the U.K.
>         To: transport-...@googlegroups.com
>         Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 5:22 PM
>
>        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOQyFYXQSEQ 53,730 views, 57 likes
>         --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---
>
>         Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 11:26:12 -0800

>         To: m-me...@dircon.co.uk

>         From: Jerry Schneider <j...@peak.org>
>         Subject: Re: New Vectus PRT Video
>
>         At 05:06 PM 2/4/2012, you wrote:
>         > Jerry ,
>         > We have made good progress with Cardiff City Council agreeing the most difficult part of the
>         > route. There are elections in May so the outline planning has to be held back till then but
>         > planning has agreed to work through all the necessay difficulties with us so that outline planning will be a foregone conclusion. The environmental assessment can also be submitted at outline planning stage. It's a two stage process outline first and full planning some time later maybe a year, in time to start construction on site.
>         > We have two potential investors wanting to buy the entire £122mm Private Debenture shares with a 5% stock option. Its a bit of a frenzied fight.
>         > I think its very important we complete the development of MonoMetro, the world needs it now. Its a simple railway and no technology to worry about. New system old technology. Metal to metal wheel rail interface proven in bearings applications, rolled rail section where the rolling "patch" contact geometry renders such an effectively low rolling point load that threshold of excitation leading to Hysterisis is never breached thus eliminating wear significantly over conventional
>         > rail.
>
>         > We also have the high speed test track route in early stage of planning negotiations. We presented the route and we are waiting to hear from the County Council planning department. Mech Engineering informs me their design criteria for the bogies will be 140km/h. So with both high speed and urban test track routes in place we can tender for a wide spectrum of projects. Easy as she goes.
>         > Best regards,
>         > Gareth
>
>         - Jerry Schneider -
>             Innovative Transportation Technologies
>              http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans
>
>         -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "transport-innovators" group.
>         To post to this group, send email to transport-...@googlegroups.com.

>         To unsubscribe from this group, send email to transport-innova...@googlegroups.com.

>         For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/transport-innovators?hl=en.

[Jerry Schneider]

At 07:59 AM 2/16/2012, you wrote:
>Except for the You Tube video and FaceBook, MonoMetro is non-existent.
>Moreover, it leaves me wondering what's different about it and what
>(seems like) an almost identical system built for the 1963 NY World's
>Fair http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjRgX37N-_E&feature=related --
>which, before a committee got hold of it, was actually PRT
>http://www.monorails.org/tmspages/Santa.html
>I recently visited the latter, now a defunct Santa's Village turned
>wood salvage yard, and found the entire ride still up and, except for
>a coat of paint, actually looking 'runable'. Turns out that the ride
>was actually sold on eBay, but the new owner defaulted. The place is
>overseen by a Grizzly Adams lookalike, who is none too happy about
>entertaining visitors. So if you want to visit, bring your binocs and
>stay outside on the road. Better still, stay home and Google
>Streetview it. You'll see more.

Monometro is a greatly updated version of the Wuppertal suspended monorail
which has been running for the past 50 years. It's not a "new" idea
but has evolved from
an established and successful (so far as I know) Wuppertal system. There are
many other similar concepts that have been proposed (Sky Train, Sky
Trolly, Sky Tram)
but none have attracted the necessary funding to make progress.
Monometro apparently has overcome this problem and may actually make
it to the demo stage in a year or two. That
would be a significant accomplishment as it would be a rare event. Moreover,
it overcomes the "sole source" problem by using conventional rail components.
How the market will react is yet to be determined. Links to other
similar systems are
available at: http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/techtable.htm

[Dennis Manning]

I'd still like to see a sketch or something showing a "monorail PRT" and the
switching explained.

Dennis

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Bruff" <daveb...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 7:59 AM
To: "transport-innovators" <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [t-i] Re: British version of Wuppertal - making significant

[Jerry Schneider]

At 08:49 AM 2/16/2012, you wrote:
>I'd still like to see a sketch or something showing a "monorail PRT"
>and the switching explained.

Perhaps it has to be a suspended monorail, not a supported one?

[kirston henderson]

on 2/16/12 10:40 AM, Jerry Schneider at j...@peak.org wrote:

> Monometro is a greatly updated version of the Wuppertal suspended monorail
> which has been running for the past 50 years. It's not a "new" idea
> but has evolved from
> an established and successful (so far as I know) Wuppertal system. There are
> many other similar concepts that have been proposed (Sky Train, Sky
> Trolly, Sky Tram)
> but none have attracted the necessary funding to make progress.
> Monometro apparently has overcome this problem and may actually make
> it to the demo stage in a year or two. That
> would be a significant accomplishment as it would be a rare event. Moreover,
> it overcomes the "sole source" problem by using conventional rail components.
> How the market will react is yet to be determined. Links to other
> similar systems are
> available at: http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/techtable.htm
>

It seems that I recall that the Indian Railway Company designed and
built a somewhat similar suspended system that also used standard railway
components. The project was abandoned after a high cross-wind gust slammed
the test car into a support and killed some people on board.

Kirston Henderson

[eph]

I think the ones that wrap around an I-beam will make PRT style on-board switching difficult.

Here is a version which should work from j-pods:
http://www.jpods.com/TechSwitches.html
It requires a "third wheel/surface" to temporarily secure the vehicle in the guideway as the switch happens.  There may still be issues with their design especially at higher speeds (guide wheel must accelerate from a stop when it hits the switch area, size of guide wheel is 1/4 size of main wheels but runs at same speed, tendency to push outwards I would imagine?).  Maybe a mechanical engineer could provide a better assessment.


F.

[Jerry Schneider]

At 10:24 AM 2/16/2012, you wrote:
>I think the ones that wrap around an I-beam will make PRT style
>on-board switching difficult.
>
>Here is a version which should work from j-pods:

><http://www.jpods.com/TechSwitches.html>http://www.jpods.com/TechSwitches.html

>It requires a "third wheel/surface" to temporarily secure the
>vehicle in the guideway as the switch happens. There may still be
>issues with their design especially at higher speeds (guide wheel
>must accelerate from a stop when it hits the switch area, size of
>guide wheel is 1/4 size of main wheels but runs at same speed,
>tendency to push outwards I would imagine?). Maybe a mechanical
>engineer could provide a better assessment.

Dan the Blogger has done quite a lot of design work on a switch for a
suspended PRT. Here is a post from 2009 - he has probably done more
on this topic by now:
http://openprtspecs.blogspot.com/2009/06/back-to-designing.html

[Dennis Manning]

eph:

 

Thanks for the jpod diagram. Not to be picky but I see a 2 rail system. They are close together, but it's not monorail.

 

Dennis

From: eph

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:24 AM

To: transport-...@googlegroups.com

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "transport-innovators" group.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/transport-innovators/-/hjzqbiQrLQ0J.

[Richard Gronning]

Interesting switch!
Bill originally had a track that switched. I vaguely remember 12 second
switching times/headways.
I think that this switch would work on a supported system, Ed
Anderson-type "U" guideway as well - maybe even better.
A shallow "U" like Vectus might have the switch at the bottom.
Dick

[eph]

OK.  I won't dispute definitions.  To the casual observer, it looks like a single beam and both those systems (mono metro and bumble-bee) have wheels on both sides I believe so they wouldn't qualify as monorail either.  Don't know of any monorail PRT by the single rail definition.

F.

[Richard Gronning]

Also interesting!
It's very similar to Bill James' switch - one more set of wheels.
BTW, It's an inverted "U" and not an "I" beam. J-Pod is also an inverted
"U."
Dick

[eph]

Just to muddy the waters, SAFEGE "monorail" with 2 rails/running surfaces.
http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/TPSafege.html

More "monorail" from the monorail society:
http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/TPindex.html

F.

[kirston henderson]

on 2/16/12 1:28 PM, Dennis Manning at john.m...@comcast.net wrote:

eph:

Thanks for the jpod diagram. Not to be picky but I see a 2 rail system. They are close together, but it's not monorail.

   Single beam monorails actually have three "tracks" or wheel running surfaces on a single beam.  The cars are supported by wheels that run on the top of the beam and are balanced by wheels that run on both sides of the beam.

Kirston Henderson
MegaRail® Transportation Systems

[kirston henderson]

on 2/16/12 1:52 PM, Richard Gronning at rgro...@gofast.am wrote:

> Interesting switch!
> Bill originally had a track that switched. I vaguely remember 12 second
> switching times/headways.
> I think that this switch would work on a supported system, Ed
> Anderson-type "U" guideway as well - maybe even better.
> A shallow "U" like Vectus might have the switch at the bottom.
> Dick

They all depend upon wheels that must quickly come up to speed when they
contact rails and that is always going to be tough on the traction portions
of the wheels involved. It's a lot like airplane tires being forced to
almost instantly coming up to speed when airplanes touch down on runways.
That is the reason that you see those black areas on runways in the areas
where the airplanes touch down. This makes for pretty short life for most
airplanes.

Kirston Henderson

[Jack Slade]

The first thing I would try is a lubricated slider that raplaces this "third wheel", since the contact would only be momentary.  Old machinery....planers and shapers, use to use sliders made from wood.  I think they used vacuum to extract all the liquids,  and then pressurized grease to imperveate the wood.  This lasted a very long time.   Jack Slade --- On Thu, 2/16/12, eph <rhaps...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: eph <rhaps...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [t-i] Re: British version of Wuppertal - making significant progress in the U.K.

[Richard Gronning]

Makes me wonder, "What's in a Name?" SAFEGE track IS 2 rails, like so
many PRT systems, but the shape of the "guideway" is an inverted "U". An
I-beam can provide 2 tracks as well. OK, with the double-flange system,
I'll opt for 3 tracks.

Dick

[Richard Gronning]

I'm ABSOLUTELY sure that you mean to say, "... short life for most
airplane TIRES." Right?
Actually they're pretty hard rubber. Maybe 18 plys or more. They get
retreaded. (At least NWA used to retread their tires. I was told that
the tread on NWA's retreads lasted 4X the original tread.) They actually
last a LONG time that way.

dick

[WALTER BREWER]

There are rather simple ways to bring airplane wheels up to rotatuon speed
at TD.
But that adds to the total kenetic energy which must be disapated on roll to
a stop. i.e. more wear om braks etc.
Experience shows itis cheaper to replace/retread tires a ss Dick says.

Walt Brewer

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Gronning" <rgro...@gofast.am>
To: <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: [t-i] Re: British version of Wuppertal - making significant
progress in the U.K.

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "transport-innovators" group.

[Richard Gronning]

Welcome back Walt!!! We were all concerned about you.

I vaguely remember that there were gyroscopic issues as well with
pre-spinning aircraft tires.
Such issues probably wouldn't effect a vehicle in a captured guideway.

Dick

[Jeff Davis]

Dick,

You are correct about the gyroscopic issues.  There were some early attempts to 'pre-spin' the landing tires on airplanes (one proposal was to use airfoil 'flaps' on each tire that deployed to cause the tires to rotate, another was to use electric motors).  All attempts led to maneuverability problems due to the spinning of large masses on the underside of the plane.

 

Jeff

 

From: Richard Gronning <rgro...@gofast.am>
To: transport-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: [t-i] Re: British version of Wuppertal - making significant progress in the U.K.

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "transport-innovators" group.
To post to this group, send email to transport-...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to transport-innovators+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

[Jerry Roane]

Dick

Yes suspended dangling systems with large mass gyroscopes would not allow the cars to go vertical at the stations.  The gyroscopes would lean the cars as you try to board and in a wind gust the tilt would remain or do what gyroscopes do which is to wobble.  I think that would be annoying to have the cars lean back and forth like a toy gyroscope after a wind gust or as it enters some mechanical constraints of a station or before a switch.  

My preference it so exactly control all motion to the prescribed optimum.  I do not like the idea of letting one axis just float to its natural position.  When you add the gyroscopic effect of whatever wheels might be on the car then the cars will move oddly just like toy gyroscopes do when you whack them on the side while they spin.  

I experienced this as a preteen.  I was pedaling my brother's bicycle up in the air as I laid on the bed.  (not recommended)  It had ten speeds and I was determined to run the bike through all the gears.  I was able to get to tenth gear at full pedaling speed on this bicycle and then the gyroscopic effect came into play.  Because my back was on the bed with foam rubber I was not able to push the bike against its will as the gyroscope starting to lean the bike over.  The more I fought this rotational movement of the bike with the rear tires traveling about 80 mph so so.  -----  long story short, the bike chewed the corner of my wooden dresser off about an inch and 1/2.  The spokes were shredded and my brother was pissed.  That out of control moment was a teachable moment for me about the gyroscope effect.  I have since never pedaled a bicycle holding it above my bed in high gear.  The gyroscope effect is what keeps most motorcycle drives upright but once it is disturbed it can mess with where you think the motorcycle should be going.   A suspended dangling car would be at the mercy of any gyroscopic effects going good or bad.  

Jerry Roane

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "transport-innovators" group.

To post to this group, send email to transport-innovators@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to transport-innovators+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

[Jack Slade]

I can't imagine any car trying to park before it is stopped.  In any event,  the gyroscopic effect is proportional to the speed of rotation.   Jack Slade --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Jerry Roane <jerry...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Jerry Roane <jerry...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [t-i] Re: British version of Wuppertal - making significant progress in the U.K.

To post to this group, send email to transport-...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to transport-innova...@googlegroups.com.

[Jerry Roane]

Jack 

We were talking about wheels that touch down and spin up.  They would free spin if they were not held still.  If these are steering wheels like the discussion was going they could be spinning down while the car went through a switch or stopped at a station.  I can see how you could get lost in this thread but we were talking about steering guide wheels skipping along to bump-steer.  The discussion wandered over to aircraft landing tires and then back to gyroscopic effect of the spun-up wheels either just before landing or just after.  On a bump steer these wheels could be free to continue spinning unless you added brakes.  These are not the support wheels as they would stop when you stop but still be spinning going through a switch.  What would be a bad effect of traveling through a switch leaning at some odd angle because the vehicle was on a big pivot and the wind gust just disturbed your gondola?  The bottom of your gondola may whack the switch protective opening because gravity would not necessarily be winning the argument as to what angle the car should be.  If the gondola is free on the tilt axis I think it creates a lot of problems when you have to bring the car into close fit with other things near or on the path.  The cars really need to be fully constrained to know exactly where they will be at any point along the path.  Partially constrained combined with some random free spin of gyroscopic things add a variability to the design that other means have to compensate for.  On a water park ride where the floating boat has to come back to the conveyor belt people have died at Six Flags Arlington from this lack of regaining control of trajectory after it is allowed to do random movement in the water flow.  Air flow or water flow are somewhat similar.  Gyroscopic effects are yet another source for being out of control when it is time to bring in the car to a known pitch yaw and roll.  

Jerry Roane 

[Michael Weidler]

Since we are talking small wheels in the case of PRT, why not just spin the guide wheel up to speed with a small electric motor?

---

From: Richard Gronning <rgro...@gofast.am>
To: transport-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 3:33 PM

Subject: Re: [t-i] Re: British version of Wuppertal - making significant progress in the U.K.

[Kirston Henderson]

On Apr 2, 2012, at 12:21 PM, Michael Weidler wrote:

Since we are talking small wheels in the case of PRT, why not just spin the guide wheel up to speed with a small electric motor?

---

You don't have to use "guide Wheels" to do the job.  For example, ULTra and 2gethere don't and we wouldn't even consider it for our systems.  About all that you get from that sort of guidance is continuous lateral jerking.

Kirston