For persons who want to get rid of autos - a CarFree wiki link
Jerry Schneider
I think that auto free zones are fairly common in Europe. I have
walked in some of them - Munich was particularly good.
There have also been some efforts to implement them in the U.S. but
so far as I know, none have been successful.
The one in Eugene, Oregon, failed and is now open to autos, with a
fair number of empty store fronts in evidence.
My impression from monitoring the CarFree discussion list is that
these people do not find PRT attractive as a way of providing
mobility in carfree zones. Of course, most of them live in EU cities
with narrow streets and very old buildings that would make it
difficult if not impossible to install elevated guideways. However,
they do have members outside the EU but the attitude seems to be
similar among them as well.
Walter Brewer
provide with personal transport. Thus the social/economic activities dries
up, stops, or goes elsewhere.
The flawed assumption is that mass transit will replace autos.
Buffalo's downtown nearly disappered after LRT was run along and under Main
Street. Most activity moved to suburbs, thus increasing sprawl.
Strangely the LRT is on th surface downtown, and tunnel further out. Should
have been the opposite.
Walt Brewer
rob...@2getthere.eu
minutes from Amsterdam) is also becoming less accessible to cars. Large
parking garages at the perimeter still allow people to travel towards
the centre, but really walking is the way to get to the stores,
restaurants, bars, disco's and cinema's. The zone is gradually being
expanded; nobody is complaining, except for maybe a few store owners as
their deliveries are restricted to 'window-times' (specific designated
times when the innner city is open to small trucks to supply the stores,
typically during low intensity shopping times: weekdays, in the morning).
Haarlem is not an exception, rather it confirms a trend. No
social/economic activities drying up here. Actually they are thriving!
The city centre is not closed to public transit, but no special
additional systems are installed either. Slow traffic (bikes and
pedestrians) is the way to get around.
Perhaps the US/Europe are too different in this respect; or should I say
the mentality of the people is too different? Or perhaps the succes
depends on how the car-free zone is applied and marketed? All I know it
works fine here...
Robbert
Walter Brewer schreef:
Mike C
that they collectively attract millions of visitors a year who pay top
dollar for the privilege of spending even a few days there.
Of course, in the US we call them "theme parks" and they're privately
owned. ;-)
(Think maybe our public leaders might learn from these profitable
ventures? Nah.)
Mike C.
Walter Brewer
intellectual in some areas, they may become models for the future.
For its number of "Adventures" Disneyland in CA is extremly compact.
Shifting from entertainment to productive it would have to go hi rise to a
major extent if it tried to remain insde current physical boundaries. It
could probably stay walkable. But bigger could use PRT in some form,
including getting from the parking lots, and or some mass transit.
Walt Brewer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike C" <mwil...@gmail.com>
To: "transport-innovators" <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 10:34 AM
Subject: [t-i] Re: For persons who want to get rid of autos - a CarFree wiki
link
Kirston Henderson
> The city centre of my city in the Netherlands (Haarlem, approximately 15
> minutes from Amsterdam) is also becoming less accessible to cars. Large
> parking garages at the perimeter still allow people to travel towards
> the centre, but really walking is the way to get to the stores,
> restaurants, bars, disco's and cinema's. The zone is gradually being
> expanded; nobody is complaining, except for maybe a few store owners as
> their deliveries are restricted to 'window-times' (specific designated
> times when the innner city is open to small trucks to supply the stores,
> typically during low intensity shopping times: weekdays, in the morning).
>
> Haarlem is not an exception, rather it confirms a trend. No
> social/economic activities drying up here. Actually they are thriving!
>
> The city centre is not closed to public transit, but no special
> additional systems are installed either. Slow traffic (bikes and
> pedestrians) is the way to get around.
>
> Perhaps the US/Europe are too different in this respect; or should I say
> the mentality of the people is too different? Or perhaps the succes
> depends on how the car-free zone is applied and marketed? All I know it
> works fine here...
Please tell us what the typical and maximum walking distances are in the
centre city area.
Kirston Henderson
MegaRail®
Walter Brewer
rob...@2getthere.eu
to 2-3 kilometers (2 miles) depending on the garage where you park, if
you only go to a bar or shopping (Europe has shopping streets rather
than malls). These are relatively short distances, which probably
contributes to its success (and the fact that no additional transit
systems are required).
Robbert
Kirston Henderson schreef:
Mike C
face, and I'm not suggesting we turn our cities into Disneyland. But I
don't think it's a coincidence that the rise in popularity of theme
parks (as well as festivals, fairs, etc) has roughly coincided with
the decline of walkability in our cities. People seem to crave what
has been lost in the automobile era - i.e. dense walkable villages -
and many now seem to fill that need by going to Six Flags.
Mike C.
>
> - Show quoted text -
Walter Brewer
Yes I think there is a cultural difference, and perhaps in USA more need to
handle growth.
USA people seem to travel along a time, (saving), axis, and even in the
Haalem situation would find a way to use cars. Example. In a typically
somewhat sprawled residential area on the edge of San Diego, a dense
residential develoment was built about 30 years ago. Small but neat
individual homes, and some condos with common grounds maintenance, and a few
recreation facilities. Surrounded on 3 sides by mass transit. Schools and
churches adjacent. A major shopping, medical, etc, and some enternainment
across one street and another smaller nearby. Occupants a mix of retires and
young families looking for lower cost housing.
A survey showed 65% of the very adjacent shopping was done by automobile.
Considerable walking, mostly by kids to school, spare time, etc. 3% use mass
transit for other trips including going to work. (Little nearby). An auto
ban would get about 500 people to the next city council meeting!
My term hedonic enclave may be a bit harsh. But I note for Haarlem you have
listed only social/entertainment functions. Would someone interested in
setting up a small factory be attracted there? The Netherlands is up to date
and productive. Where are the businesses and factories producing societies
needs? How do workers get around to those, and how far away do they live?
Wwere do they shop?
That leads into the very large growth factor USA communities have to handle,
and are less than efficient in meeting travel demand. Few communities are of
the dense live near work type. New job sources are getting away from
"downtown" rapidly. They are reasonably near residential areas, but few are
walking distance. And job turnover would quickly doom a "company town".
These are opportunity for some sort of PRT, but pre-ordained "no auto" zones
are unlikely. A PRT argument is to maintain modest density lifestyle with
significant energy savings.
Walt Brewer
----- Original Message -----
From: <rob...@2getthere.eu>
To: <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
Walter Brewer
If moving sidewalks were installed at Disneyland, I suspect at least 50%
would use them.
Come to think of it. Many years ago a demo moving sidewalk was there. I have
no data on its use.
Dennis Manning
that was part of the old Wedway people mover in Disneyland.
Jerry Schneider
>I doubt it.
> If moving sidewalks were installed at Disneyland, I suspect at least 50%
>would use them.
That would depend on whether it would take you to where you want to to.
If you didn't know, then why not use it.
I can remember seeing walking studies that found that people in theme parks
walk very long distances and don't complain about it much.
I've observed people in airline terminals that walk alongside a
moving way - for
what reasons I don't know.
gary
farmer's market. It's a very pleasant experience. Quiet, clean air,
no worry of being run over. It's hard to appreciate just how much the
automobile (adversely) dominates our environment until you have a
chance to experience it's absence. In some respects our ancestors had
a better quality of life.
gary
rob...@2getthere.eu
There are no factories downtown; it's a combination of residences,
shops, entertainment and restaurants (actually winning a price for best
shopping city in the Netherlands a couple of years ago). Factories
however small or large are typically not located in the heart of a city.
If there were any, they were moved years ago.
The industry of Haarlem is located in several suburbs (offices) and a
dedicated industrial site near the highway (mostly pharmaceutical
companies such as MSD). There is a large harbor nearby (IJmuiden) where
a large steel company is located. I guess it makes sense as the harbor
is at the sea and the businesspark has direct access to the high- and
freeways.
A couple of years ago a people mover system for the industrial site was
researched. In the end it turned out that even a group transit system
would not be an option, because carrying workers only, the demand was
too low for the system to be economically justifyable. An industrial
estate seems to attract cars rather than public transit, while in an
office estate those figures are quite differently...
And I think you are right that there are large cultural differences
between the continents. When I was an exchange student living in Montana
(Townsend) I made the mistake to say that I thought people were too
dependent on their cars. It was only weeks after that I realized that
with the vast distances involved the car is really the best way to get
around. I could ride my bike in town, but it would not get me to Helena,
Billings or Bozeman...
Whether you live in the Netherlands or the USA (or anywhere else), the
convenience of having a car in front of your door, makes you less prone
to think about how you are travelling to a particular destination. It's
just all too easy to use tha car for everything! This could very well be
part of the explanation why people in your example resort to using their
car even for small local trips.
We can talk all about new systems, but in the end using the systems will
also depend on establishing a change of mind with all people travelling.
They should choose their means of transit more conciously then they are
now... (including me!).
Robbert
Walter Brewer schreef:
Jerry Roane
I looked up the population density of the Netherlands and it looks like it is the densest country in Europe at over 1,000 people per square mile. That is 3.6 times the population density of states like Ohio. If density is required for a transportation idea to work then the Netherlands would be the place. Here in Texas (74 per sq mi) we are three times less dense than Ohio so the mid continent is not a candidate for rail transportation or transit ideas they could profit at that density. It is only our CapMetro board chairman who spent half his time in Europe who thought we should buy Statdler (European) rail cars and park them over on the North part of town where they were parked yesterday. The cost of this parking facility for these rail cars could easily have parked hundreds of cars if not thousands. A thousand cars would service 1,500 population so the parking factility for the European train sets could serve 20 square miles worth of population. It would take 10 of these to equal the square miles of the city of Austin. Although rail car train sets may be spiffy where they came from, because of the required density they are out of place here at our density of 13.6 times less density. If we take the 200 seats in each car and ratio them down to our relative density then these multibillion dollar toys for this one rich dude's ego of his legacy would seat 15. I think the short bus holds 25. Three used minivans would be more size appropriate and pollute significantly less than these diesel powered smog belching monstrosities. Our city is having to tell the policemen they need to get paid less because the city debt is too large but if the millions that have been buried into just the parking facility for these monster trucks on steroids by weight they woud not need to negatively impact the police service in our city. If they had not replaced the ties in the line with old growth tree creosote log ties they would not need to reduce the firemen's pay either to bring the budget back to just heavy debt.
We have an auto free zone here in Austin. It is the UT stadium. To fill up the auoto free zone for an afternoon takes all the available parking in the entire downtown district. It is a perfect match between the available parking and the supply of parking or they could not fill the stadium. As soon as one team gets ahead by two touchdowns the stadium empties so they can get out of the traffic from these cars but again the traffic is equal to the ability of the atofree zone participants to stand it or they would not come. If there is a market for an auto free zone someone will supply it. If there is no need then no one will pay for it to happen. If the decisionmakers are not paying but merely directing the police with guns on their hips to direct the cars away then the market idea is lost and the autofree zone is just power and ego of the decisionmakers. The individual freedom of the car guy trying to get where he wants to go when he wants to go there is impaired by the gun/imposed fine deterent. Austin has an auto free zone each weekend in the bar district once people get drunk enough. Hhistory has proven that it is safer to exclude cars from drunks so we have autofree 6th street if you don't count the parked cars already parked on 6th when they put of the street barriers.
Jerry Roane
Walter Brewer
Walter Brewer
I understand shops in Pennsylvania still build buggies. A museum might loan
a buggy whip.
Walt Brewer
----- Original Message -----
From: "gary" <garyd...@gmail.com>
To: "transport-innovators" <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 4:58 PM
Subject: [t-i] Re: For persons who want to get rid of autos - a CarFree wiki
link
>
Jerry Roane
I am interested in the addresses of these auto-free zones. I would like to study these locations. My guess is these are not free zones but heavily taxed fined or discouraged zones. If you can derive cash flow from exclusivity you can pull a few more bucks from the average Joe's pocket. In many locations they pull public parking spots to force you to pay some rich dude for parking on his near by property. There are many places in the city where someone has erected a sign (not voted on by the way) that says you are not allowed to park. Even though the public owns the paved area you are not allowed by threat of fine to stop your car on that location. These money producing spots not only bring in money from people paying fines to those who hold the guns but they generate a good towing and "storage" business. Here in Austin the towing companies are owned by conflict of interest persons. Towing and impounding is a great business to be in if you are the recipient of the cash. For the rest of us, not so much. Transit Oriented Development or development in general is great for maybe three people and the rest of us take it in the shorts.
Could you send me the addresses of these locations? Certainly as a percentage of the state landmass these are insignificantly rare.
Jerry Roane
Jerry,"If there is a market for an auto free zone someone will supply it. If there is no need then no one will pay for it to happen."Not so in California in principle at least. The Transit Oriented Deveelopments are heavily subsidized out of funds that could be used to improve roads, or add PRT. Many TOD's have auto free zones, or at least heavy restrictions on use or parking.Walt Brewer
snip
gary
gary
Walter Brewer
Walt Brewer
----- Original Message -----
From: "gary" <garyd...@gmail.com>
To: "transport-innovators" <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
gary
vaccinations, but drop the saber tooth tiger attacks.
gary
Walter Brewer
----- Original Message -----From: Jerry RoaneSent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 2:07 PMSubject: [t-i] Re: For persons who want to get rid of autos - a CarFree wiki link