Masdar official worried about PRT capabilities at city-scale
Jerry Schneider
sounds like "capacity won't be sufficient" to me - especially if the
LRT doesn't get built soon. Some may have to walk, I guess. Might be
good for them.
Richard Gronning
Mr Frost said. “If you say, ‘Do I think the PRT works on a city-scale?’ No, it doesn’t.”
Who is Mr Frost?
Is he saying, generic, or all PRT systems won't work, city-scale? That's SOME statement!
What are his criteria for making this statement?
What are his qualifications?
Jerry Schneider
>Here's a quote!
>Mr Frost said. "If you say, 'Do I think the PRT works on a
>city-scale?' No, it doesn't."
Alan Frost is the director of the city's property development unit.
>Is he saying, generic, or all PRT systems won't work, city-scale?
>That's SOME statement!
>What are his criteria for making this statement?
>What are his qualifications?
I'm pretty sure he is talking only about 2getthere. I think he is
talking about "capacity" - his qualifications are unknown.
-----------------------------------------------------------
>Jerry Schneider wrote:
>>The reasons for his concern are not very clearly stated, but it
>>sounds like "capacity won't be sufficient" to me - especially if
>>the LRT doesn't get built soon. Some may have to walk, I
>>guess. Might be good for them.
>>
>><http://bit.ly/aHygAB>http://bit.ly/aHygAB
>>
>
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Dennis Manning
limited future transport options. The pods use exclusive tracks that mean
other electric vehicles would be excluded from the city, Mr. Frost said."
He seems to think exclusive use is a handicap rather than a plus. Stuff some
non-PRT electric vehicles in there and you really will have a capacity
problem. The statements have little detail but what is there hints that the
property manager doesn't grasp the PRT idea very well.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jerry Schneider" <j...@peak.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:54 PM
To: <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [t-i] Masdar official worried about PRT capabilities at
city-scale
Jerry Roane
The problem I see for Masdar is it is not big enough. It has narrow streets as one method to increase population density and make walking more practical so walking the entire project is possible. It is built on a vast desert so land was never a problem. It will have daily imported workers commuting so their homes are not provided for in the "walkable" space. The imported workers may just have to walk where they need to go leaving the electric golf carts for the elite.
If they want a solution to traffic flow for the population where they are not called upon to walk in scorching heat I suggest, like any city, they put in elevated guideway once they sell a few homes and office buildings in the project. Elevated sun-powered guideway that goes very fast can also let the worker bees have a nice life too. Rather than have the elite population energy be fossil fuel free they could have the human ecosystem enjoy real-time energy including the lower classes. Masdar proper may have the stated goal of energy freedom but the working system will be very much oil supported. It depends on where you draw your system circle. Either around the elite or around the elite and their support staff.
Jerry Roane
The reasons for his concern are not very clearly stated, but it sounds like "capacity won't be sufficient" to me - especially if the LRT doesn't get built soon. Some may have to walk, I guess. Might be good for them.
http://bit.ly/aHygAB
Jack Slade
Another example: A Google search for Ken Avidor gets me nothing, except there is a photographic shop in Minneapolis with the name (Avidor).
Question: If this is Ken, just how did he get to know so much about transportation? Also, is he operating under an assumed name,and why?
Jack Slade
--- On Tue, 3/16/10, Richard Gronning <rgro...@gofast.am> wrote:
> From: Richard Gronning <rgro...@gofast.am>
> Subject: Re: [t-i] Masdar official worried about PRT capabilities at city-scale
TanLienChiow
Quote from http://www.rechargenews.com/energy/solar/article208829.ece
Now Masdar officials acknowledge that much of the electricity that will
power the city may have to be imported, rather than produced on site, as
planned. Moreover, they concede that the city's electrically-powered
vehicles - known in Masdar-speak as Personal Rapid Transport pods - are
unlikely to be rolled out across the entire project.
Tan Lien Chiow
Roy Reynolds
Financial Woes Crimp Celebrated Middle East 'Green City'
A money crunch has forced the scaling back of a futuristic, sustainable research park being built in the United Arab Emirates, , according to project officials.
Alan Frost, the director of the Masdar City property development unit, told The National newspaper in UAE's capital, Abu Dhabi, that Masdar would cut costs by bringing in an outside developer to assist with construction. Frost's office has laid off 34 employees, about 20 percent of its staff, the newspaper reported yesterday.
A technology originally planned for the whole city -- computer-driven "personal rapid transit" pods -- might now be limited to the site of the research institute, the paper reported. The project is also reconsidering its plan to generate all of its power on-site from renewable sources, and is looking at importing power from elsewhere, Frost told the newspaper.
Launched with great fanfare in 2006, the Masdar Initiative is aimed at building a city with zero carbon emissions in the desert near Abu Dhabi and includes plans for a world-class research university modeled on the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, as well as high-tech corporate tenants and venture capitalists.
The research institute is under construction now, and the entire city was originally slated for completion by 2016. But officials in January said a segment of the city would be delivered first in a test of market readiness.
Fred Moavenzadeh, the director of MIT's technology and development program and head of the school's work with Masdar, said there are no immediate plans to scale back the research institute.
"Because of the drop in the housing market and the drop in the real estate property, they are planning to slow down the development" of the city, Moavenzadeh said, citing news reports.
"The institute is very independent from the Masdar Initiative, in the sense that it is a private university, not-for-profit, in that it is run by a board of trustees that is chaired by the crown prince and funded directly from the government," he added.
"Masdar City is committed to finish our campus, and I believe that ... the first phase of the delivery will take place sometime in April or May," with final delivery expected before students are scheduled to move in, in August.
Acknowledging that the city is also funded by the Abu Dhabian government, Moavenzadeh said he had not heard any indication that the institute's budget would be affected by the initiative's change in plans.
In fact, he said, the school is requesting additional funding for the coming year to fully equip laboratory space for new faculty members hired in microelectronics, a field that requires both pricey equipment and access to expensive "clean rooms."
Interconnections between the research institute and the high-tech community of Masdar City have been among the key selling points of the initiative, and changes to plans for the city could affect those collaborations. But Moavenzadeh expressed confidence that faculty research projects would not be hurt.
"I believe they will be continued, because the Masdar City administration sort of needs the type of study that the faculty and their students are doing," he said. "These faculty and their students can look at the feasibility of some of the proposed technologies," as well as the optimal scale, potential side effects and alternatives, he said.
Moavenzadeh said his recent conversations with Sultan al Jaber, the CEO of Masdar, have given no indication that the research center's activities would be cut back.
"These are not esoteric projects they are doing; they are very practical, down-to-earth projects," he said.
Copyright 2010 E&E Publishing. All Rights Reserved.
Mike C
secretive that we don't get much of a view of the inner workings, but
even given that secrecy it seems like there's been not enough progress
for the aggressive timeline they've scheduled.
Maybe Masdar is not what we all thought it was. I read some other
articles and there seems to be a change in focus. Until now it
appeared to be very much research driven and cutting edge, a "change
the world" kind of effort, but seeing some of the quotes from today
it's looking more and more like just a run-of-the-mill development
project with a gimmick. Several of the articles alluded to fast-
tracking the development and assuring "return on investment", two
glaring signs that this has become more about profitability than
innovation.
So which is it? Was Masdar a noble effort to change the world which is
now forced to scale back, or was it an opportunistic development
project which used the sustainability label to garner international
interest in developing a dead piece of land in the desert? I'm not
willing to abandon it entirely yet, but these announcements make it
seem much more the latter than the former.
In any case, even if they don't go city-wide with PRT, it will still
have a pilot system serving the Institute. That's still better than we
have today. But I wonder what happens to all those plans that were
based on narrow walkable streets? Without PRT there will be cars and
trucks (even garbage trucks!) on the streets of Masdar, so streets
will widen. With wider streets, there go some of the benefits of the
design, i.e. creating shielding from the sun and natural breezes
through the narrow spaces. Again, without PRT it devolves from a
cutting edge city to just another suburban development.
Disappointing. But we'll see, maybe today's developments are not
final.
Mike C
On Mar 17, 1:20 pm, Roy Reynolds <roy.reyno...@prtstrategies.com>
wrote:
> From today's New York Times (emphasis added):
> March 17, 2010
>
> <http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2010/03/17/17greenwire-financial-woes-cr...>
> Financial Woes Crimp Celebrated Middle East 'Green City'
>
> By JENNY MANDEL of Greenwire <http://www.greenwire.com>
>
> A money crunch has forced the scaling back of a futuristic, sustainable
> research park being built in the United Arab Emirates, , according to
> project officials.
>
> Alan Frost, the director of the Masdar City property development unit,
> told /The National/ newspaper in UAE's capital, Abu Dhabi, that Masdar
> would cut costs by bringing in an outside developer to assist with
> construction. Frost's office has laid off 34 employees, about 20 percent
> of its staff, the newspaper reported yesterday.
>
> /*A technology originally planned for the whole city -- computer-driven
> "personal rapid transit" pods -- might now be limited to the site of the
> research institute, the paper reported. */The project is also
Brad Templeton
guidways beneath all the streets, because the streets are elevated,
and you think the answer would be to put elevated guideways on top of
the streets?
If you can get it, underground (or fake underground like Masdar's) is
the way to go. No obstruction, the noise is buried away, few limits
on where you can go. It's just that tunnels are too expensive if not
designed from scratch like Masdar. As you know, most cities prefer
to have subways over elevated rail, in spite of the huge cost.
(Though obviously elevated rail is much more obtrusive than small PRT
tracks.)
However, as the high line shows, elevated guideways are great for
pedestrians. They want the fresh air and sunshine. (At least outside
of the tropical and arab worlds.)
> > transport-innova...@googlegroups.com<transport-innovators%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
Jerry Schneider
My impression is that the only place non-PRT vehicles would be able to
travel is on the lower level which was designed for PRT exclusively.
But it might be possible to use personal mobility vehicles (e.g. Segways)
on the level designed for pedestrians. One wonders if the engineers were
wrong about PRT having sufficient capacity to meet the long-range requirements.
Or were they right, but others don't believe them?
Seems like PRT would not really be needed just to get around the
research facility,
unless it is much larger than I think it is.
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- Jerry Schneider -
Innovative Transportation Technologies
http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans
Jerry Roane
This guy Frost is putting the freeze on the Grand goals. Perhaps this whole exercise was a glorious sham to "prove" that renewables are a bad business decision and we should go back to burning Arabian oil like good sheeple. It is going to be cheaper in the next quarter to burn Arabian oil especially considering the oil is there in the piping. We all know the next quarter profit/loss is always going to drive morons to make their decisions. Maybe this is like when General Motors built the EV1 only to crush them into balls of plastic and steel scrap. GM only built them because California took a stand and forced the issue. When one guy on the committee in California waffled then the EV1s were toast. It looks like this Frost guy is the GM management clone. Perhaps he can bring the UAE into bankruptcy and the US taxpayer can then bail them out too.
If this Frosty guy thinks he can run his city on PV he better be planning to use pod cars. Obviously he has not bought into the concept of sustainable power levels and has no commitment to possible energy peace through advanced applied engineering. Frost is the biggest threat to the viability of this future city. If he is not fired he will bring down the whole project bottom to top.
Jerry Roane
Dennis Manning
Benke
transportation capacity by replacing PRT with something else, like
cars. Cars require at least as much space while running, but also
needs extensive parking areas.
Maybe the project is to futuristic for its ihabitants-to-be, and they
have a hard sell on the idea that inhabitants would not be allowed to
have their car at the house. What if I buy one of these houses and
then the PRT does not work, no one will want to buy my house. That
line of reasoning would be logical for any potential house buyer which
is not confident with what we say about PRT and its capabilities.
On Mar 18, 3:35 am, "Dennis Manning" <john.manni...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> We can easily speculate on what's going on with Masdar and the PRT. I'm going to wait and hope that Luca or Robbert can shed some light.
>
> Dennis
>
> From: Jerry Roane
> Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:17 PM
> To: transport-...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [t-i] Masdar official worried about PRT capabilities at city-scale
>
> Roy
>
> This guy Frost is putting the freeze on the Grand goals. Perhaps this whole exercise was a glorious sham to "prove" that renewables are a bad business decision and we should go back to burning Arabian oil like good sheeple. It is going to be cheaper in the next quarter to burn Arabian oil especially considering the oil is there in the piping. We all know the next quarter profit/loss is always going to drive morons to make their decisions. Maybe this is like when General Motors built the EV1 only to crush them into balls of plastic and steel scrap. GM only built them because California took a stand and forced the issue. When one guy on the committee in California waffled then the EV1s were toast. It looks like this Frost guy is the GM management clone. Perhaps he can bring the UAE into bankruptcy and the US taxpayer can then bail them out too.
>
> If this Frosty guy thinks he can run his city on PV he better be planning to use pod cars. Obviously he has not bought into the concept of sustainable power levels and has no commitment to possible energy peace through advanced applied engineering. Frost is the biggest threat to the viability of this future city. If he is not fired he will bring down the whole project bottom to top.
>
> Jerry Roane
>
> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/transport-innovators?hl=en.
Brad Templeton
expect they plan to increase capacity more with the light rail and
other group transit.
Of course they could put group vehicles into their PRT tracks, since
those tracks have the advantage of just being pavement, and being on
the ground so they can take whatever will fit.
Depending on the tolerance for waiting, a clever system can say, "Hey,
there are 6 people, all wanting to go to the same place or a set of
places along a line" and program a jitney. At rush hour, this would
happen a lot and most rides would perhaps be jitneys, increasing
capacity a lot.
Robbert Lohmann
To us the situation is unchanged. Mist Phase 1a is a pilot where PRT
has to proof itself to be able to make a decision whether it is going
to be rolled out to the city as a whole. This remains unchanged.
However, like any smart company, Masdar is evaluating whether its
plans are still up to date. Naturally the transit strategy as a whole,
and PRT as part of that, is also being evaluated. The jury is still
out, but what was phrased is a concern that needs to be taken into
account in those discussions. Can PRT handle the peak capacity
requirements of the city? If there are 'thick' connections, other
transit means might very well make sense for establishing those
connections! Even in the early days of the project Systematica
concluded that GRT or shared-rides PRT might make sense for those
connections during peak hours.
It is correct that this doesn't change the situation for Mist Phase
1a. The system will commence operations later this year.
Robbert
Jerry Schneider
>I have a hard time imagining that they would be able to increase
>transportation capacity by replacing PRT with something else, like
>cars. Cars require at least as much space while running, but also
>needs extensive parking areas.
It seems to me that capacity could be increased somewhat by using
larger vehicles at certain times on certain routes, like those
2getthere has been using
in the Netherlands (e.g. ParkShuttle). Also, I think that bicycles and personal
mobility devices (e.g. Segways, Vilco Speedy, folding bicycles,
Roboscooters, Green Wheels)
could be used at the pedestrian level for many trips.
>Maybe the project is to futuristic for its ihabitants-to-be, and they
>have a hard sell on the idea that inhabitants would not be allowed to
>have their car at the house. What if I buy one of these houses and
>then the PRT does not work, no one will want to buy my house. That
>line of reasoning would be logical for any potential house buyer which
>is not confident with what we say about PRT and its capabilities.
I wonder how long the PRT ride from a "house" might be to one
of the parking areas outside of the walls? I would guess something less
than 10 minutes. I don't know if these parking areas are covered or open,
but the parked cars would need some protection from the sun and high
temps.
eph
is more expensive and so is providing personal transport. Group
transport tends to be cheaper, but with more waiting and perhaps even
transfers required. It may be necessary to add waiting areas for GRT
type system. I have faith the designers got capacity requirements for
PRT right but capital requirements may exceed what is now available.
The ideas already mentioned should help.
F.