Why is that Cyclist in the Middle of the Road?

[ron]

  http://tinyurl.com/y893rfy

Some good advice from a California blogger.  There are times when you should be in the middle of the road.

Ron Richings

[Eric....@pc.gc.ca]

I saw a "scooter" (the kind used by mobility impaired people) going down
the Hornby bike lane today, at Georgia. Looked dangerous. (It much lower
than the average bike)

It did not look like a good idea

[Luis Bernhardt]

I have always been suspicious of people in "scooters." It is my
understanding that one does not need to be "mobility-impaired" in order to
avail oneself of a scooter. Therefore, any fat, lazy person can ride a
scooter in order to avoid physical exercise. Thus, I have no respect for
people on scooters.

- L.

[Stephen Rees]

Simply because " any fat, lazy person can ride a scooter in order to avoid physical exercise" does not mean that all people who ride scooters are lazy. I have friend who has post polio and as she has aged has had to rely on a scooter if she is to get out of her home and do simple everyday tasks. But more than that I believe every human being deserves simple basic respect. Even someone who writes thoughtlessly to list serves 

--
Stephen Rees
Richmond, BC Canada
http://stephenrees.wordpress.com

[Richard Campbell]

Stephan, thanks for beating me to this. Tragically flawed logic and such disrespectful comments have no place on the list or anywhere for that matter.

In addition, people in scooters could be valuable allies in pushing for better cycling facilities. What works well for bikes I expect works well for scooters. And who knows, in a few years we could be them.

Richard

[Luis Bernhardt]

My, touchy, aren’t we? It’s amusing to see how easy it is to pull some people’s political correctness strings, especially when the puller is someone who doesn’t toe the party line! Ah, but I will always think for myself; I adhere to no ideology.

 

OK, I phrased it incorrectly. I don’t like being scammed by people who are perfectly capable of walking but who choose to ride in scooters. They really annoy me. But how do we know who is truly in need of mobility and who is just lazy? No choice but to just assume everyone is in need of mobility, therefore getting scammed at least some of the time. Therefore, annoyed by anybody on a scooter. Twisted logic? Maybe. Tragically flawed? Oh, get serious.

 

Luis

 

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[Eric Floden]

my understanding is that in Las Vegas (for one) there is a good market for scooter rentals for "able-bodied"people, so I do not assume all people using them are impaired.  Either way though, the scotter I saw earlier today looked like it was ripe for getting hit by a car, sitting so low as it does . . .

[David Thompson]

When did empathy get branded by the derogatory term political correctness?

 

When did politeness and civility become partisan?

 

When did “there but for the grace of God go I” become “I don’t have anything in common with you”?

 

Was it Thatcher and Reagan?

 

Was it Gordon Gecko?

 

Moreover, where does it lead to?

 

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[Karly Coleman]

Fair questions, all.  It was disappointing to read the posts today.

 

ta k

 

Anything that happens, happens - Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

Please only print this email should it be necessary - thanks.

 

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[Eric Doherty]

Thanks David,

 

Your questions are a better answer than what I could have come up with.

 

But I have a few more:

 

Why is it objectionable for an able bodied person to drive a small electric vehicle?

 

Is it not much more objectionable for the same person to drive a larger and heavier petroleum powered car?

[Terry Dyck]

electric vehicles, large and small, reduce green house gases.
 
Terry Dyck
 

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From: edoh...@uniserve.com

To: trans-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [trans-action] Re: Why is that Cyclist in the Middle of the Road?

Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:54:01 -0800

<BR

[Jym Dyer]

> electric vehicles, large and small, reduce green house gases.

=v= This again? I am somehow reminded of this message that I
wrote just last July:

> =v= We had this discussion already. What I wrote then was:
>
>> Unfortunately, nobody has really bothered to tally up the
>> increased demand for electricity from plug-in hybrids if
>> they were to be deployed in large numbers. There are just
>> blithe assumptions that they'll be recharged off-peak ...
>> or that renewable energy sources will suffice.
>
> I went on to say that the argument needs some rigorous math
> to support it. Your response then was, "No math, however,
> lots of philosophy."
>
> =v= Here it is, a year and a half later, and there's still no
> no math.

=v= Make that two years later.

> P.S.: Lots of info in that earlier discussion, archived here:

http://groups.google.com/group/trans-action/browse_thread/thread/9fb0bfbb71b8a20b/b37f9a6d3239f477

<_Jym_>

[Terry Dyck]

Hi Jim,
 
You asked for some rigorous math so here are some numbers for you.  In Canada 58% of electrical energy is produced by hydro and only 3% from oil and 16% from coal.  If you plug your computor into the grid for its electrical power you are only using 3% oil, however, if you were to plug your computor into a gas powered generator you would use 100% oil.  When you use an internal combustion vehicle 100% is oil energy.  If you were to use a total electric powered car only 3% would be energy from oil and 16% from dirty coal.  The best math is that a study from Stanford University demonstrated that wind source energy could provide 40 times more energy than the planet is using today.  That plus solar, geothermal, waves, bio mass and many other sources of alternative energy could easily replace the 16% coal burning and the 3% oil burning sources of energy.  Electric cars might be the incentive to replace coal and oil sources of electricity which should be done anyway.
 
Terry Dyck 

[Richard Campbell]

Not likely. By increasing demand for electricity, electric cars will delay the decommission of coal powered plants and the associated reduction in GHG emissions.

Also, rivers all around BC are being destroyed to produce so called "green power" that is really not needed in BC given our current demand. I expect this is all being built to meet the expected increase in demand due to electric vehicles.

Richard

[Terry Dyck]

Hi Richard,
 
Don't you think that a new paradyn awareness to the benefits of alternative energy will allow people to still have electricity and prevent the oil companies from controlling our lives and destroying our planet?  Why should we keep on driving SUV.s and large pick up trucks with Green House Gas fuels when we already have the technology to power vehicles with clean green sources of energy?  At least a dozen large car manufacturers already have 100% electric cars on display at European car shows but they are not releasing them to the public until the year 2012.
 
Terry Dyck
 

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From: richard.cam...@gmail.com

To: trans-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [trans-action] Re: Why is that Cyclist in the Middle of the Road?

Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:51:38 -0800

[David Thompson]

I strongly support renewable energy, but am unsure what impact it can make on the transportation system.  These would be some useful numbers to come up with to demonstrate the potential of electric vehicles:

·        The amount of energy (GJ) that the fossil fuel-based vehicle fleet currently uses

·        The amount of energy (GJ) currently generated by renewables

·        The investment $ required to fill the above gap (or some portion of it, like 10% or 50%), in terms of electricity generation capacity, transmission, distribution and retail.

 

The next set of numbers to come up with would relate to the amount of energy and environmental cost involved in the future under the status quo (i.e. near 100% fossil fuel powered fleet) vs. the scenarios above.  And numbers for a conservation scenario.

 

Maybe these numbers are already out there.  If not, they should be (more accurately, they will need to be before anything like an EV future is possible).  Wish I had the time to look this up.  Terry or others do you?

 

Cheers,

Dave

 

</html

[Don Buchanan]

thanks david for your points regarding the marginal fat and lazy
argument. one more point to add: those scooters cost in the
neighbourhood of $2,500 and up. One would have to be pretty lazy and
wealthy to buy one just so they didn't have to walk.

on the subject of electric vehicles, we seem to be forgetting the
resources required to manufacture the vehicles, the space they take up
on the road, the parking spaces needed at home/work/mall/aquarium/nail
bar, the misery they create in road user injuries, the expensive
infrastructure required if everyone had one, etc. hardly a solution,
especially if we can agree we have to greatly reduce our consumption
of all natural resources not just carbon based energy in order to keep
within the carrying capacity of the planet.

don

On Nov 17, 1:09 pm, "David Thompson" <davidthomp...@telus.net> wrote:
> I strongly support renewable energy, but am unsure what impact it can make
> on the transportation system.  These would be some useful numbers to come up
> with to demonstrate the potential of electric vehicles:
>

> .        The amount of energy (GJ) that the fossil fuel-based vehicle fleet
> currently uses
>
> .        The amount of energy (GJ) currently generated by renewables
>
> .        The investment $ required to fill the above gap (or some portion of

> http://groups.google.com/group/trans-action/browse_thread/thread/9fb0...
> 8a20b/b37f9a6d3239f477

[David Thompson]

Hi Don and all,

Agree 100% about the importance of those factors. That's what I meant by
the energy and environmental costs of the status quo vs. renewables
scenarios and conservation.

Cheers,
Dave

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14:33:00

[Terry Dyck]

Hi David,
 
When we are talking about costs we can not over look the report released from one of the World's top economists, Sir Nicholas Stern, the former CEO and Senior Economist of the World Bank.  Sir Nicholas Stern announced to the world that the cost of not taking action immediately to slow down Global Warming could cost taxpayers of the future 7 Trillion Dollars.  You could build a lot of wind mills and solar farms with that amount of financing.
In answer to Don's message about manufacturing electric vehicles, I am sure that the damage to the environment would be the same or even less than manufacturing vehicles that burn fossil fuels.  The BC Sustainable energy assoc. is now promoting the idea of retofitting regular cars to become electric cars, so you could actually reduce the amount of manufacturing the car companies are now doing.  As far as parking goes, a small electric vehicle takes up less space than a large gas powered pick up truck, less space on the roads, etc.
The main point though is that we are not driving less so lets at least drive a pollution free, not fossil fuel burning vehicle and also walk more, cycle and drive less.  Reducing GHG immediately is now extremely important.  Transportation, though only makes up 11% of GHG so we need to also focus on the biggest contributor of Green House Gases, Livestock Production, which makes up 18% of GHG.  Paul McCartney states that going vegetarian for 2 days a week could drastically reduce Global Warming.
 
Terry Dyck

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[Eric Doherty]

There are some very serious questions to be answered about the lifecycle emissions and ecological footprint of electric cars, particularly larger ones capable of prolonged highway travel. I don't think a precise answer can be available at the moment simply because electric cars (as opposed to golf-cart-like neighbourhood electric vehicles and electric scooters) are not in large-scale production yet.

 

My take on this is that the carbon footprint of manufacturing and maintaining a $40,000+ electric or plug in hybrid is going to be fairly high. Probably considerably higher than an equivelent gasoline car. The per km emissions will likely be much reduced if used in high-milage taxi or car-share use. But for an urban driver going say 10,000 km per year, there may not be any reduction in carbon footprint. BC's Pacific Institute for Climate Solutions recently suggested that over 40,000 km per year may be where hybrids and electric cars have clear lifecycle benefits.

 

On the other hand, a $2500 mobility scooter probably has a very low carbon footprint.

 

We need to shift rapidly to electric public transit, cycling and walking (and electric mobility scooters for those who have difficulty walking longer distances). The case for full-size electric automobiles in personal use in urban areas (as opposed to car-shares, taxis and delivery vehicles) is still to be established.

 

There is no technological magic wand that will allow automobile dominated cities to become sustainable automobile dominated cities. We need to overcome automobile domination quickly, like Zurich did decades ago.

 

Cheers,

 

Eric

[Richard Campbell]

The other issue with electric cars is that because they cost less to drive per km, people will likely drive them more leading to increased energy use. As well, this will also encourage sprawl which is less energy efficient than more compact development. All and all, electric cars will really not be an improvement for the environment nor will they solve many of the health, social and environmental issues associated with automobile overuse.

Richard

[Carmen Mills]

Any technology that adds more "cheap" energy to the system, without
replacing existing carbon-reliant energy, is bad news. That's one of
the main problems with run-of-river electrical projects. Who said we
need more energy (to heat the swimming pools of California)? We need
LESS energy; the notion that we can cross the ocean in 5 hours and
travel 400km/hr is a hubris which has nearly destroyed our planet. We
know the most immediately effective way to get people to drive less
is to let the cost of gas rise; as long as energy is cheap, we will
abuse it. We need to -- and we will - learn to get by with less, slow
down, and rediscover the energy in our own limbs.

Speaking of which (back to the cyclist in the middle of the road), I
know its a risky question and not meant to disrespect those with
physical limitations, but I sometimes wonder how many of the folks in
motorized scooters have been given the gift of mobility (some,
certainly), vs. how many have lost the strength of their own arms
which would have been previously put to use in conventional
wheelchairs. Would love to see some medical stats on that.

[Terry Dyck]

Okay, so how do you get the tremendous amount of fossil fuel burning cars off the roads in time to save the planet from reaching the tipping point?  Wouldn't converting regular gas burning cars to electric cars plus electric transit and electric
 freight carriers reduce GHG faster than the 85 million barrels of oil we are now consuming per day?

 
Terry  Dyck 

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From: richard.cam...@gmail.com
To: trans-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [trans-action] Re: Why is that Cyclist in the Middle of the Road?
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:08:56 -0800

[Terry Dyck]

Hi Carmen,
 
There are some mixed views here.  First of all the feed back to my idea of replacing coal and oil burning with alternative sources of energy was expensive, now you are suggesting that electric cars are "cheap".  I agree that we need to use conservation; less swimming pools.  The technology is only a change, maybe too drastic of a change for people who don't like change, but it is only a change from a very high polluting source of energy to a very low polluting source of energy, provided alternative energy replaces coal, oil and nuclear.  Thousands of people in Canada die every year from smog produced from burning fossil fuels, and many more people are hospitalized.
 
Terry Dyck

 
> From: car...@emeraldcity.bc.ca
> Subject: Re: [trans-action] Re: Why is that Cyclist in the Middle of the Road?

[Mike McArthur]

I just saw a CBC story on a car plant in India, putting out 1,200 small cars a day. The Indians, whom have one of the fast growing economies, were leaving their transit system in favour of small, petroleum powered cars (huge wait lists for the Nano). CDN suppliers were doing their best to enable/profit from this new 'Detroit' and the PM was being encouraged to expedite CDN business helping to this end. 

So, while we all argue how to best to take one step fwd in the transportation emissions problem (conservation vs alternative energy), there's a lot of energy being placed on taking steps in the opposite direction (non-sustainable fuels, GHG's etc) on our global problem. 

Being a global issue, even if we export our clean-power, it's a win for the airsheds. To simply say BC is clean and California can go on burning coal while we stop at self sufficiency is as troubling as Canada finding a way to build more traditional cars for India. 

Mike