I totally agree. I often struggle to locate bathrooms/toilets when out and
about.
in Japan i was totally amazed that i would find clearly marked toilets
anywhere and everywhere! it was radically different than here where even
the skytrain stations do not have a washroom.
simple the things the city could do. change the requirements for business
license applicataions to require public bathrooms for certain types of
businesses. all gas stations must provide publicly available easily
accessed working bathroom (and air/water), all restaurants, and retail
shops. that would quickly go along way to easing the situation.
pol
On 10 May 2012 02:42, Richard Campbell <richard.campbell.li...@gmail.com>wrote:
> --
> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land use
> issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do not
> necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
Another aspect of the urgency of supporting mobility for seniors is
the baby boomers' "pig in the python" that's just around the corner.
Users of Motorized Personal Mobility Devices are considered to be
pedestrians and are required to use sidewalks. The Canadian Council
of Motor Transport Administrators notes:
3.1 Market for MPMDs
• Between 2009 and 2036, the 65 and over population in Canada is
expected to double to around 10 million.
• Nearly one-third of adults in Canada aged 65 and over have a
mobility-related disability.
• These trends will increase the number of elderly persons who will
be unable to drive and who will, therefore, require alternatives to
the personal vehicle for transportation.
• Environmental and energy concerns may generate increased demand for
smaller alternatives to traditional passenger cars for personal
transportation.
Fostering independence for those less mobile will put additional
strain on sidewalks. The need for Urban Trails with adequate width
will rank up there with separated bike lanes.
> I totally agree. I often struggle to locate bathrooms/toilets when
> out and about.
> in Japan i was totally amazed that i would find clearly marked
> toilets anywhere and everywhere! it was radically different than
> here where even the skytrain stations do not have a washroom.
> simple the things the city could do. change the requirements for
> business license applicataions to require public bathrooms for
> certain types of businesses. all gas stations must provide publicly
> available easily accessed working bathroom (and air/water), all
> restaurants, and retail shops. that would quickly go along way to
> easing the situation.
> pol
> On 10 May 2012 02:42, Richard Campbell
> <richard.campbell.li...@gmail.com> wrote:
> One of my goals. Hopefully completed way before I'm one.
> -- > The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and
> land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed
> here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action- > unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> To change to digest mode, view the list archive or otherwise manage
> your
> status on the list, visit this group at: http://groups.google.com/ > group/trans-action
> -- > The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and
> land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed
> here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action- > unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> To change to digest mode, view the list archive or otherwise manage
> your
> status on the list, visit this group at: http://groups.google.com/ > group/trans-action
Are you sure BC law actually clarifies that "Users of Motorized Personal Mobility Devices are considered to be pedestrians and are required to use sidewalks"? I don't think this is the case in BC, unless there has been a recent change in the law, which I understand used to be silent or ambiguous on the issue. If this is the law, cycling advocacy groups should be working to change the law to make it legal for people to use electric mobility scooters and electric wheelchairs in bike lanes, as they do already. People with disabilities could be powerful allies in campaigns for better cycling facilities.
> Another aspect of the urgency of supporting mobility for seniors is > the baby boomers' "pig in the python" that's just around the corner.
> Users of Motorized Personal Mobility Devices are considered to be > pedestrians and are required to use sidewalks. The Canadian Council > of Motor Transport Administrators notes:
> *
> *
> *
> *3.1 Market for MPMDs *
> �Between 2009 and 2036, the 65 and over population in Canada is > expected to double to around *
> 10 million.
> *
> �Nearly one-third of adults in Canada aged 65 and over have a > mobility-related disability.
> �These trends will increase the number of elderly persons who will be > unable to drive and who will, *
> therefore, require alternatives to the personal vehicle for > transportation.
> *
> *
> *
> *
> �Environmental and energy concerns may generate increased demand for > smaller alternatives to *
> *
> traditional passenger cars for personal transportation.
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *Fostering independence for those less mobile will put additional > strain on sidewalks. The need for Urban Trails with adequate width > will rank up there with separated bike lanes.*
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> On May 10, 2012, at 8:42 AM, paul bogaert wrote:
>> I totally agree. I often struggle to locate bathrooms/toilets when >> out and about.
>> in Japan i was totally amazed that i would find clearly marked >> toilets anywhere and everywhere! it was radically different than here >> where even the skytrain stations do not have a washroom.
>> simple the things the city could do. change the requirements for >> business license applicataions to require public bathrooms for >> certain types of businesses. all gas stations must provide publicly >> available easily accessed working bathroom (and air/water), all >> restaurants, and retail shops. that would quickly go along way to >> easing the situation.
>> pol
>> On 10 May 2012 02:42, Richard Campbell >> <richard.campbell.li...@gmail.com >> <mailto:richard.campbell.li...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> One of my goals. Hopefully completed way before I'm one.
>> -- >> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and
>> land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed
>> here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
>> To post to this group, send email to
>> trans-action@googlegroups.com <mailto:trans-action@googlegroups.com>
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>> <mailto:trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
>> -- >> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and >> land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here >> do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
>> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:trans-action@googlegroups.com>
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
> -- > The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land > use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do > not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> Are you sure BC law actually clarifies that "Users of Motorized Personal
> Mobility Devices are considered to be pedestrians and are required to use
> sidewalks"? I don't think this is the case in BC, unless there has been a
> recent change in the law, which I understand used to be silent or ambiguous
> on the issue. If this is the law, cycling advocacy groups should be working
> to change the law to make it legal for people to use electric mobility
> scooters and electric wheelchairs in bike lanes, as they do already. People
> with disabilities could be powerful allies in campaigns for better cycling
> facilities.
> Eric
> On 10/05/2012 10:20 AM, Larry Pamer wrote:
> Another aspect of the urgency of supporting mobility for seniors is the
> baby boomers' "pig in the python" that's just around the corner.
> Users of Motorized Personal Mobility Devices are considered to be
> pedestrians and are required to use sidewalks. The Canadian Council of
> Motor Transport Administrators notes:
> *
> *
> *
> 3.1 Market for MPMDs
> • Between 2009 and 2036, the 65 and over population in Canada is expected
> to double to around
> 10 million.
> • Nearly one-third of adults in Canada aged 65 and over have a
> mobility-related disability.
> • These trends will increase the number of elderly persons who will be
> unable to drive and who will,
> therefore, require alternatives to the personal vehicle for transportation.
> • Environmental and energy concerns may generate increased demand for
> smaller alternatives to
> traditional passenger cars for personal transportation.
> *
> *Fostering independence for those less mobile will put additional strain
> on sidewalks. The need for Urban Trails with adequate width will rank up
> there with separated bike lanes.*
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> On May 10, 2012, at 8:42 AM, paul bogaert wrote:
> I totally agree. I often struggle to locate bathrooms/toilets when out and
> about.
> in Japan i was totally amazed that i would find clearly marked toilets
> anywhere and everywhere! it was radically different than here where even
> the skytrain stations do not have a washroom.
> simple the things the city could do. change the requirements for business
> license applicataions to require public bathrooms for certain types of
> businesses. all gas stations must provide publicly available easily
> accessed working bathroom (and air/water), all restaurants, and retail
> shops. that would quickly go along way to easing the situation.
> pol
> On 10 May 2012 02:42, Richard Campbell <richard.campbell.li...@gmail.com>wrote:
>> One of my goals. Hopefully completed way before I'm one.
>> --
>> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land
>> use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do not
>> necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
>> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> --
> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land use
> issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do not
> necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> --
> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land use
> issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do not
> necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> --
> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land use
> issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do not
> necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
-- ==================================
"All this free parking is charity for cars" - Donald Shoup - The High Cost
of Free Parking
==================================
Agreed. The city got a legal opinion that users of mobility devices are not allowed to use bicycle lanes, separated or not. The province should change the law to allow them on bike lanes. As well, paths and lanes need to be designed so they can safely and comfortably be used by people in such mobility devices.
Richard
On 2012-05-10, at 11:31 AM, Eric Doherty wrote:
> Are you sure BC law actually clarifies that "Users of Motorized Personal Mobility Devices are considered to be pedestrians and are required to use sidewalks"? I don't think this is the case in BC, unless there has been a recent change in the law, which I understand used to be silent or ambiguous on the issue. If this is the law, cycling advocacy groups should be working to change the law to make it legal for people to use electric mobility scooters and electric wheelchairs in bike lanes, as they do already. People with disabilities could be powerful allies in campaigns for better cycling facilities.
> Eric
> On 10/05/2012 10:20 AM, Larry Pamer wrote:
>> Another aspect of the urgency of supporting mobility for seniors is the baby boomers' "pig in the python" that's just around the corner.
>> Users of Motorized Personal Mobility Devices are considered to be pedestrians and are required to use sidewalks. The Canadian Council of Motor Transport Administrators notes:
>> 3.1 Market for MPMDs
>> • Between 2009 and 2036, the 65 and over population in Canada is expected to double to around 10 million.
>> • Nearly one-third of adults in Canada aged 65 and over have a mobility-related disability.
>> • These trends will increase the number of elderly persons who will be unable to drive and who will, therefore, require alternatives to the personal vehicle for transportation.
>> • Environmental and energy concerns may generate increased demand for smaller alternatives to traditional passenger cars for personal transportation.
>> Fostering independence for those less mobile will put additional strain on sidewalks. The need for Urban Trails with adequate width will rank up there with separated bike lanes.
>> On May 10, 2012, at 8:42 AM, paul bogaert wrote:
>>> I totally agree. I often struggle to locate bathrooms/toilets when out and about.
>>> in Japan i was totally amazed that i would find clearly marked toilets anywhere and everywhere! it was radically different than here where even the skytrain stations do not have a washroom.
>>> simple the things the city could do. change the requirements for business license applicataions to require public bathrooms for certain types of businesses. all gas stations must provide publicly available easily accessed working bathroom (and air/water), all restaurants, and retail shops. that would quickly go along way to easing the situation.
>>> pol
>>> On 10 May 2012 02:42, Richard Campbell <richard.campbell.li...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> One of my goals. Hopefully completed way before I'm one.
>>> -- >>> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
>>> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>>> -- >>> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
>>> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>> -- >> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
>> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> -- > The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
Vancouver City council just asked the province to amend the MVA regs restricting the maximum length of buses, they could certainly do the same for bike lanes. A joint letter from the BC Cycling Coalition and a group like the BC Coalition of People with Disabilities is probably all it would take.
> Agreed. The city got a legal opinion that users of mobility devices > are not allowed to use bicycle lanes, separated or not. The province > should change the law to allow them on bike lanes. As well, paths and > lanes need to be designed so they can safely and comfortably be used > by people in such mobility devices.
> Richard
> On 2012-05-10, at 11:31 AM, Eric Doherty wrote:
>> Larry,
>> Are you sure BC law actually clarifies that "Users of Motorized >> Personal Mobility Devices are considered to be pedestrians and are >> required to use sidewalks"? I don't think this is the case in BC, >> unless there has been a recent change in the law, which I understand >> used to be silent or ambiguous on the issue. If this is the law, >> cycling advocacy groups should be working to change the law to make >> it legal for people to use electric mobility scooters and electric >> wheelchairs in bike lanes, as they do already. People with >> disabilities could be powerful allies in campaigns for better cycling >> facilities.
>> Eric
>> On 10/05/2012 10:20 AM, Larry Pamer wrote:
>>> Another aspect of the urgency of supporting mobility for seniors is >>> the baby boomers' "pig in the python" that's just around the corner.
>>> Users of Motorized Personal Mobility Devices are considered to be >>> pedestrians and are required to use sidewalks. The Canadian Council >>> of Motor Transport Administrators notes:
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *3.1 Market for MPMDs *
>>> �Between 2009 and 2036, the 65 and over population in Canada is >>> expected to double to around *
>>> 10 million.
>>> *
>>> �Nearly one-third of adults in Canada aged 65 and over have a >>> mobility-related disability.
>>> �These trends will increase the number of elderly persons who will >>> be unable to drive and who will, *
>>> therefore, require alternatives to the personal vehicle for >>> transportation.
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> �Environmental and energy concerns may generate increased demand for >>> smaller alternatives to *
>>> *
>>> traditional passenger cars for personal transportation.
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *Fostering independence for those less mobile will put additional >>> strain on sidewalks. The need for Urban Trails with adequate width >>> will rank up there with separated bike lanes.*
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> On May 10, 2012, at 8:42 AM, paul bogaert wrote:
>>>> I totally agree. I often struggle to locate bathrooms/toilets when >>>> out and about.
>>>> in Japan i was totally amazed that i would find clearly marked >>>> toilets anywhere and everywhere! it was radically different than >>>> here where even the skytrain stations do not have a washroom.
>>>> simple the things the city could do. change the requirements for >>>> business license applicataions to require public bathrooms for >>>> certain types of businesses. all gas stations must provide publicly >>>> available easily accessed working bathroom (and air/water), all >>>> restaurants, and retail shops. that would quickly go along way to >>>> easing the situation.
>>>> pol
>>>> On 10 May 2012 02:42, Richard Campbell >>>> <richard.campbell.li...@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:richard.campbell.li...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> One of my goals. Hopefully completed way before I'm one.
>>>> -- >>>> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation
>>>> and land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions
>>>> expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list
>>>> administrators.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to
>>>> trans-action@googlegroups.com
>>>> <mailto:trans-action@googlegroups.com>
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>> trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>>>> <mailto:trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
>>>> To change to digest mode, view the list archive or otherwise
>>>> manage your
>>>> status on the list, visit this group at:
>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/trans-action
>>>> -- >>>> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and >>>> land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed >>>> here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com >>>> <mailto:trans-action@googlegroups.com>
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>> <mailto:trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
>>>> To change to digest mode, view the list archive or otherwise manage >>>> your
>>>> status on the list, visit this group at: >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/trans-action
>>> -- >>> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and >>> land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed >>> here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
>>> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>> -- >> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and >> land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here >> do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
>> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:trans-action@googlegroups.com>
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
> -- > The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land > use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do > not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
=v= Think about all the Baby Boomers who are out in the 'burbs,
utterly dependent on driving. An urban housing arrangement that
used to work was an "in-law" unit, often on the ground floor of
a family home. Unfortunately, many of these have been converted
into garages all across the continent.
=v= Laws for "empowered" pedestrian gadgets are courtesy of
Segway LLC, who sent out an army of lobbyists to write these
laws, and pay legislators to enact them.
<_Jym_>
I've been using ICBC info where possible to avoid reading the MVA. (I don't know how Colin does it.) If you scroll down to the bottom
of page 84, it says that users of PMDs should be on the sidewalk:
http://www.icbc.com/driver-licensing/Getting-licensed/drivers6.pdf
In as friendly a way as possible, I disagree with allowing anything
other than motorized vehicles and bicycles on the road. I have
started referring to other roadway candidates as Other Wheeled
Things. OWTs lack the agility, brakes, lights and user competence to
qualify them to be out there in the slaughterhouse; I think it's 1.3
million road deaths annually as it is.
As a wannabe community advocate, I would combine forces to convert
local streets to two lanes, strip parking and put in sidewalks that
could handle all the mobility devices necessary. Bylaws would manage
compatibility of devices. Interesting to note that Oregon allows
sidewalk cycling, if done courteously and at ped speeds.
> Are you sure BC law actually clarifies that "Users of Motorized
> Personal Mobility Devices are considered to be pedestrians and are
> required to use sidewalks"? I don't think this is the case in BC,
> unless there has been a recent change in the law, which I
> understand used to be silent or ambiguous on the issue. If this is
> the law, cycling advocacy groups should be working to change the
> law to make it legal for people to use electric mobility scooters
> and electric wheelchairs in bike lanes, as they do already. People
> with disabilities could be powerful allies in campaigns for better
> cycling facilities.
> Eric
> On 10/05/2012 10:20 AM, Larry Pamer wrote:
>> Another aspect of the urgency of supporting mobility for seniors
>> is the baby boomers' "pig in the python" that's just around the
>> corner.
>> Users of Motorized Personal Mobility Devices are considered to be
>> pedestrians and are required to use sidewalks. The Canadian
>> Council of Motor Transport Administrators notes:
>> 3.1 Market for MPMDs
>> • Between 2009 and 2036, the 65 and over population in Canada is
>> expected to double to around 10 million.
>> • Nearly one-third of adults in Canada aged 65 and over have a
>> mobility-related disability.
>> • These trends will increase the number of elderly persons who
>> will be unable to drive and who will, therefore, require
>> alternatives to the personal vehicle for transportation.
>> • Environmental and energy concerns may generate increased demand
>> for smaller alternatives to traditional passenger cars for
>> personal transportation.
>> Fostering independence for those less mobile will put additional
>> strain on sidewalks. The need for Urban Trails with adequate
>> width will rank up there with separated bike lanes.
>> On May 10, 2012, at 8:42 AM, paul bogaert wrote:
>>> I totally agree. I often struggle to locate bathrooms/toilets
>>> when out and about.
>>> in Japan i was totally amazed that i would find clearly marked
>>> toilets anywhere and everywhere! it was radically different than
>>> here where even the skytrain stations do not have a washroom.
>>> simple the things the city could do. change the requirements for
>>> business license applicataions to require public bathrooms for
>>> certain types of businesses. all gas stations must provide
>>> publicly available easily accessed working bathroom (and air/ >>> water), all restaurants, and retail shops. that would quickly go
>>> along way to easing the situation.
>>> pol
>>> On 10 May 2012 02:42, Richard Campbell
>>> <richard.campbell.li...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> One of my goals. Hopefully completed way before I'm one.
>>> -- >>> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and
>>> land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed
>>> here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list
>>> administrators.
>>> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action- >>> unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>>> To change to digest mode, view the list archive or otherwise
>>> manage your
>>> status on the list, visit this group at: http://groups.google.com/ >>> group/trans-action
>>> -- >>> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and
>>> land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed
>>> here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list
>>> administrators.
>>> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action- >>> unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>>> To change to digest mode, view the list archive or otherwise
>>> manage your
>>> status on the list, visit this group at: http://groups.google.com/ >>> group/trans-action
>> -- >> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and
>> land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed
>> here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
>> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action- >> unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>> To change to digest mode, view the list archive or otherwise
>> manage your
>> status on the list, visit this group at: http://groups.google.com/ >> group/trans-action
> -- > The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and
> land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed
> here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action- > unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> To change to digest mode, view the list archive or otherwise manage
> your
> status on the list, visit this group at: http://groups.google.com/ > group/trans-action
What! You don't enjoy wading through century-old legalese?
In any case, ICBC adds nothing but another source of ambiguity on the legal status of electric mobility scooters in bike lanes and on roadways. In law "should" is not at all the same as "must", and the interpretation of laws and regulation relies heavily on past court decisions. Actually, this reminds me that most areas of BC don't have curb cuts for wheelchairs on 100% of intersections - so often people in wheelchairs cannot reasonably use sidewalks = "difficult to access".
*People in motorized
scooters or wheelchairs
also share the roads.*
Technically, they *should* be
on the sidewalk, but not
all roads have sidewalks.
Also, sidewalks may be too
rough or narrow to travel
on, or *difficult to access*.
I cycling facilities are good enough for a 8-year old and an 80-year old to cycle together, then they will be good enough for an 8-year old on a bicycle and an 88-year old on an electric scooter to travel together safely.
> I've been using ICBC info where possible to avoid reading the MVA. (I > don't know how Colin does it.) If you scroll down to the bottom of > page 84, it says that users of PMDs should be on the sidewalk:
> http://www.icbc.com/driver-licensing/Getting-licensed/drivers6.pdf
> In as friendly a way as possible, I disagree with allowing anything > other than motorized vehicles and bicycles on the road. I have > started referring to other roadway candidates as Other Wheeled Things. > OWTs lack the agility, brakes, lights and user competence to qualify > them to be out there in the slaughterhouse; I think it's 1.3 million > road deaths annually as it is.
> As a wannabe community advocate, I would combine forces to convert > local streets to two lanes, strip parking and put in sidewalks that > could handle all the mobility devices necessary. Bylaws would manage > compatibility of devices. Interesting to note that Oregon allows > sidewalk cycling, if done courteously and at ped speeds.
> On May 10, 2012, at 11:31 AM, Eric Doherty wrote:
>> Larry,
>> Are you sure BC law actually clarifies that "Users of Motorized >> Personal Mobility Devices are considered to be pedestrians and are >> required to use sidewalks"? I don't think this is the case in BC, >> unless there has been a recent change in the law, which I understand >> used to be silent or ambiguous on the issue. If this is the law, >> cycling advocacy groups should be working to change the law to make >> it legal for people to use electric mobility scooters and electric >> wheelchairs in bike lanes, as they do already. People with >> disabilities could be powerful allies in campaigns for better cycling >> facilities.
>> Eric
>> On 10/05/2012 10:20 AM, Larry Pamer wrote:
>>> Another aspect of the urgency of supporting mobility for seniors is >>> the baby boomers' "pig in the python" that's just around the corner.
>>> Users of Motorized Personal Mobility Devices are considered to be >>> pedestrians and are required to use sidewalks. The Canadian Council >>> of Motor Transport Administrators notes:
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *3.1 Market for MPMDs *
>>> �Between 2009 and 2036, the 65 and over population in Canada is >>> expected to double to around *
>>> 10 million.
>>> *
>>> �Nearly one-third of adults in Canada aged 65 and over have a >>> mobility-related disability.
>>> �These trends will increase the number of elderly persons who will >>> be unable to drive and who will, *
>>> therefore, require alternatives to the personal vehicle for >>> transportation.
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> �Environmental and energy concerns may generate increased demand for >>> smaller alternatives to *
>>> *
>>> traditional passenger cars for personal transportation.
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *Fostering independence for those less mobile will put additional >>> strain on sidewalks. The need for Urban Trails with adequate width >>> will rank up there with separated bike lanes.*
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *
>>> On May 10, 2012, at 8:42 AM, paul bogaert wrote:
>>>> I totally agree. I often struggle to locate bathrooms/toilets when >>>> out and about.
>>>> in Japan i was totally amazed that i would find clearly marked >>>> toilets anywhere and everywhere! it was radically different than >>>> here where even the skytrain stations do not have a washroom.
>>>> simple the things the city could do. change the requirements for >>>> business license applicataions to require public bathrooms for >>>> certain types of businesses. all gas stations must provide publicly >>>> available easily accessed working bathroom (and air/water), all >>>> restaurants, and retail shops. that would quickly go along way to >>>> easing the situation.
>>>> pol
>>>> On 10 May 2012 02:42, Richard Campbell >>>> <richard.campbell.li...@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:richard.campbell.li...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> One of my goals. Hopefully completed way before I'm one.
>>>> -- >>>> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation
>>>> and land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions
>>>> expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list
>>>> administrators.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to
>>>> trans-action@googlegroups.com
>>>> <mailto:trans-action@googlegroups.com>
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>> trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>>>> <mailto:trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
>>>> To change to digest mode, view the list archive or otherwise
>>>> manage your
>>>> status on the list, visit this group at:
>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/trans-action
>>>> -- >>>> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and >>>> land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed >>>> here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com >>>> <mailto:trans-action@googlegroups.com>
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>> <mailto:trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
>>>> To change to digest mode, view the list archive or otherwise manage >>>> your
>>>> status on the list, visit this group at: >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/trans-action
>>> -- >>> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and >>> land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed >>> here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
>>> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>> -- >> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and >> land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here >> do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
>> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:trans-action@googlegroups.com>
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> -- > The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land > use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do > not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
Most sidewalks tend to be not designed for wheel vehicles of any kind.
- Pedestrians are highly mobile and can easily move laterally to avoid each other and other obstacles. Wheeled devices work much better when there are lanes for each direction.
- Sidewalks are are often rather bump which can cause significant pain and discomfort to those confined to wheelchair like devices. - Curb cuts, if they exist, are often not correctly constructed and can cause PMD's to tip over. At any rate, they require them to slow down a lot
- PMDs can go significantly faster than peds making them a poor fir for sidewalks
For all these reasons, it is actually probably easier and less expensive to install well designed separated bike lanes to better accommodate PMDs rather than attempt to fix up sidewalks which, even after significant investment, would likely perform poorly for PDMs.
Regarding the law, for the reasons above, many PMD users use roads instead of sidewalks. All the current law does is decrease their legal rights in the case of a collision that is not or is not entirely their fault. It likely does not increase their safety is except in extreme cases, I can't imagine someone in a PMD getting ticketed for riding on the road.
To ensure their safety and everyone else's it is critical to lower speeds and design roads so that they are safer.
As witnessed by the horrific levels of collisions and injuries on our streets, if "user competence" was a requirement to use roads, they would be practically empty.
> I've been using ICBC info where possible to avoid reading the MVA. (I don't know how Colin does it.) If you scroll down to the bottom of page 84, it says that users of PMDs should be on the sidewalk:
> http://www.icbc.com/driver-licensing/Getting-licensed/drivers6.pdf
> In as friendly a way as possible, I disagree with allowing anything other than motorized vehicles and bicycles on the road. I have started referring to other roadway candidates as Other Wheeled Things. OWTs lack the agility, brakes, lights and user competence to qualify them to be out there in the slaughterhouse; I think it's 1.3 million road deaths annually as it is.
> As a wannabe community advocate, I would combine forces to convert local streets to two lanes, strip parking and put in sidewalks that could handle all the mobility devices necessary. Bylaws would manage compatibility of devices. Interesting to note that Oregon allows sidewalk cycling, if done courteously and at ped speeds.
> On May 10, 2012, at 11:31 AM, Eric Doherty wrote:
>> Larry,
>> Are you sure BC law actually clarifies that "Users of Motorized Personal Mobility Devices are considered to be pedestrians and are required to use sidewalks"? I don't think this is the case in BC, unless there has been a recent change in the law, which I understand used to be silent or ambiguous on the issue. If this is the law, cycling advocacy groups should be working to change the law to make it legal for people to use electric mobility scooters and electric wheelchairs in bike lanes, as they do already. People with disabilities could be powerful allies in campaigns for better cycling facilities.
>> Eric
>> On 10/05/2012 10:20 AM, Larry Pamer wrote:
>>> Another aspect of the urgency of supporting mobility for seniors is the baby boomers' "pig in the python" that's just around the corner.
>>> Users of Motorized Personal Mobility Devices are considered to be pedestrians and are required to use sidewalks. The Canadian Council of Motor Transport Administrators notes:
>>> 3.1 Market for MPMDs
>>> • Between 2009 and 2036, the 65 and over population in Canada is expected to double to around 10 million.
>>> • Nearly one-third of adults in Canada aged 65 and over have a mobility-related disability.
>>> • These trends will increase the number of elderly persons who will be unable to drive and who will, therefore, require alternatives to the personal vehicle for transportation.
>>> • Environmental and energy concerns may generate increased demand for smaller alternatives to traditional passenger cars for personal transportation.
>>> Fostering independence for those less mobile will put additional strain on sidewalks. The need for Urban Trails with adequate width will rank up there with separated bike lanes.
>>> On May 10, 2012, at 8:42 AM, paul bogaert wrote:
>>>> I totally agree. I often struggle to locate bathrooms/toilets when out and about.
>>>> in Japan i was totally amazed that i would find clearly marked toilets anywhere and everywhere! it was radically different than here where even the skytrain stations do not have a washroom.
>>>> simple the things the city could do. change the requirements for business license applicataions to require public bathrooms for certain types of businesses. all gas stations must provide publicly available easily accessed working bathroom (and air/water), all restaurants, and retail shops. that would quickly go along way to easing the situation.
>>>> pol
>>>> On 10 May 2012 02:42, Richard Campbell <richard.campbell.li...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> One of my goals. Hopefully completed way before I'm one.
>>>> -- >>>> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>>>> -- >>>> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>>> -- >>> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
>>> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>> -- >> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
>> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> -- > The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
One of the big differences between Canada & the US is that in Canada:
1. Pay toilets are illegal, and
2. All restaurants must have toilets.
This is why you can go into any fast food restaurant & find a washroom. Where the law makes a distinction between a restaurant and a food stand is unclear, as I have seen small brick & mortar places without toilets. The places downtown that sell 99-cent pizza slices are a good example. I think they are technically illegal.
I think it's pretty deplorable that Skytrain stations don't have washrooms, but then there'd be additional expenses (& fare increases resultant), plus the vandalism. Why do ignorant humanoids need to go around destroying things?
I have stopped drinking coffee before my ride to work during the winter just because it's so hard to find any washrooms along my 50-minute bike commute.
----- Original Message -----
From: "paul bogaert" <p...@thebikedr.com>
To: trans-action@googlegroups.com
Cc: v...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:42:11 AM
Subject: Re: [trans-action] Making streets safer for seniors
I totally agree. I often struggle to locate bathrooms/toilets when out and about.
in Japan i was totally amazed that i would find clearly marked toilets anywhere and everywhere! it was radically different than here where even the skytrain stations do not have a washroom.
simple the things the city could do. change the requirements for business license applicataions to require public bathrooms for certain types of businesses. all gas stations must provide publicly available easily accessed working bathroom (and air/water), all restaurants, and retail shops. that would quickly go along way to easing the situation.
pol
On 10 May 2012 02:42, Richard Campbell < richard.campbell.li...@gmail.com > wrote:
One of my goals. Hopefully completed way before I'm one.
-- The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
-- The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
Thanks for your thoughts on this. I think we should concede that we
live in grey mobility times. The MVA maintenance team was probably
not thrilled to learn that they had to accommodate bicycles. The
result isn't good, but at least it has been reviewed.
Transport Canada hasn't gotten around to setting standards for PMDs. It's possible to purchase one and not be able to get it onto a
transit vehicle because that imported batch of PMDs exceeds the
allowable width. It would help to have PMDs specified, perhaps
affording the opportunity to design them in a way that might offset
some of the physical environment problems.
To add to the greyness, I think sidewalks were intended to handle non- roadway traffic like strollers, bikes, trikes, letter carrier
caddies, wheelchairs, roller skates, kick scooters, hopscotch,
personal grocery carts and peds without segregation linearly. Graduating to mixed use trails, volume may necessitate signing,
splitting of modes, etc.
That said, you're right, the smoother the surface, the better for
PMDs. Sidewalks tend to be old and in need of repair. Upgrades
could be done on the basis of neighbourhood connections provided or
with a US mentality:
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jan/30/local/la-me-sidewalks-20120131
The consideration for PMD top end has led to bylaws in Europe setting
their max speed at 6kph to maintain similar rates of sidewalk movement.
Separated bike lanes are more of a cycling facility than a multi-use
path which is why I think PMDs would add clutter.
I think of roads as being for motor vehicles and knowledgeable
cyclists. Sidewalks are where the remaining OWTs go. New West has
taken this a step further my permitting sidewalk cycling in lesser
congested areas.
I know you're not a big fan of anecdotal data, but to confirm PMD
users' need for a smooth surface, I asked one in a crowded store what
would be the number one thing the City could do for her. She said,
because of her broken back, go fix the g.d. potholes in crosswalks.
Larry
On May 10, 2012, at 5:55 PM, Richard Campbell wrote:
> Most sidewalks tend to be not designed for wheel vehicles of any kind.
> - Pedestrians are highly mobile and can easily move laterally to
> avoid each other and other obstacles. Wheeled devices work much
> better when there are lanes for each direction.
> - Sidewalks are are often rather bump which can cause significant
> pain and discomfort to those confined to wheelchair like devices.
> - Curb cuts, if they exist, are often not correctly constructed and
> can cause PMD's to tip over. At any rate, they require them to slow
> down a lot
> - PMDs can go significantly faster than peds making them a poor fir
> for sidewalks
> For all these reasons, it is actually probably easier and less
> expensive to install well designed separated bike lanes to better
> accommodate PMDs rather than attempt to fix up sidewalks which,
> even after significant investment, would likely perform poorly for
> PDMs.
> Regarding the law, for the reasons above, many PMD users use roads
> instead of sidewalks. All the current law does is decrease their
> legal rights in the case of a collision that is not or is not
> entirely their fault. It likely does not increase their safety is
> except in extreme cases, I can't imagine someone in a PMD getting
> ticketed for riding on the road.
> To ensure their safety and everyone else's it is critical to lower
> speeds and design roads so that they are safer.
> As witnessed by the horrific levels of collisions and injuries on
> our streets, if "user competence" was a requirement to use roads,
> they would be practically empty.
> Richard
> On 2012-05-10, at 3:13 PM, Larry Pamer wrote:
>> Eric,
>> I've been using ICBC info where possible to avoid reading the
>> MVA. (I don't know how Colin does it.) If you scroll down to the
>> bottom of page 84, it says that users of PMDs should be on the
>> sidewalk:
>> http://www.icbc.com/driver-licensing/Getting-licensed/drivers6.pdf
>> In as friendly a way as possible, I disagree with allowing
>> anything other than motorized vehicles and bicycles on the road. >> I have started referring to other roadway candidates as Other
>> Wheeled Things. OWTs lack the agility, brakes, lights and user
>> competence to qualify them to be out there in the slaughterhouse;
>> I think it's 1.3 million road deaths annually as it is.
>> As a wannabe community advocate, I would combine forces to convert
>> local streets to two lanes, strip parking and put in sidewalks
>> that could handle all the mobility devices necessary. Bylaws
>> would manage compatibility of devices. Interesting to note that
>> Oregon allows sidewalk cycling, if done courteously and at ped
>> speeds.
>> On May 10, 2012, at 11:31 AM, Eric Doherty wrote:
>>> Larry,
>>> Are you sure BC law actually clarifies that "Users of Motorized
>>> Personal Mobility Devices are considered to be pedestrians and
>>> are required to use sidewalks"? I don't think this is the case in
>>> BC, unless there has been a recent change in the law, which I
>>> understand used to be silent or ambiguous on the issue. If this
>>> is the law, cycling advocacy groups should be working to change
>>> the law to make it legal for people to use electric mobility
>>> scooters and electric wheelchairs in bike lanes, as they do
>>> already. People with disabilities could be powerful allies in
>>> campaigns for better cycling facilities.
>>> Eric
>>> On 10/05/2012 10:20 AM, Larry Pamer wrote:
>>>> Another aspect of the urgency of supporting mobility for seniors
>>>> is the baby boomers' "pig in the python" that's just around the
>>>> corner.
>>>> Users of Motorized Personal Mobility Devices are considered to
>>>> be pedestrians and are required to use sidewalks. The Canadian
>>>> Council of Motor Transport Administrators notes:
>>>> 3.1 Market for MPMDs
>>>> • Between 2009 and 2036, the 65 and over population in Canada is
>>>> expected to double to around 10 million.
>>>> • Nearly one-third of adults in Canada aged 65 and over have a
>>>> mobility-related disability.
>>>> • These trends will increase the number of elderly persons who
>>>> will be unable to drive and who will, therefore, require
>>>> alternatives to the personal vehicle for transportation.
>>>> • Environmental and energy concerns may generate increased
>>>> demand for smaller alternatives to traditional passenger cars
>>>> for personal transportation.
>>>> Fostering independence for those less mobile will put additional
>>>> strain on sidewalks. The need for Urban Trails with adequate
>>>> width will rank up there with separated bike lanes.
>>>> On May 10, 2012, at 8:42 AM, paul bogaert wrote:
>>>>> I totally agree. I often struggle to locate bathrooms/toilets
>>>>> when out and about.
>>>>> in Japan i was totally amazed that i would find clearly marked
>>>>> toilets anywhere and everywhere! it was radically different
>>>>> than here where even the skytrain stations do not have a washroom.
>>>>> simple the things the city could do. change the requirements
>>>>> for business license applicataions to require public bathrooms
>>>>> for certain types of businesses. all gas stations must provide
>>>>> publicly available easily accessed working bathroom (and air/ >>>>> water), all restaurants, and retail shops. that would quickly
>>>>> go along way to easing the situation.
>>>>> pol
>>>>> On 10 May 2012 02:42, Richard Campbell
>>>>> <richard.campbell.li...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> One of my goals. Hopefully completed way before I'm one.
>>>>> -- >>>>> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation
>>>>> and land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions
>>>>> expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list
>>>>> administrators.
>>>>> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action- >>>>> unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>>>>> To change to digest mode, view the list archive or otherwise
>>>>> manage your
>>>>> status on the list, visit this group at: http:// >>>>> groups.google.com/group/trans-action
>>>>> -- >>>>> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation
>>>>> and land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions
>>>>> expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list
>>>>> administrators.
>>>>> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action- >>>>> unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>>>>> To change to digest mode, view the list archive or otherwise
>>>>> manage your
>>>>> status on the list, visit this group at: http:// >>>>> groups.google.com/group/trans-action
>>>> -- >>>> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation
>>>> and land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions
>>>> expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list
>>>> administrators.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action- >>>> unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> One of the big differences between Canada & the US is that in Canada:
> 1. Pay toilets are illegal, and
Pay toilets in BC are illegal. (One of the Dave Barrett's
claim to fame)
> 2. All restaurants must have toilets.
But not for public unless over 40 seats, Vancouver bylaw
and probably different elsewhere.
Staff do have to wash their hands etc, but not the public.
> This is why you can go into any fast food restaurant & find a washroom. Where the law makes a distinction between a restaurant and a food stand is unclear, as I have seen small brick & mortar places without toilets. The places downtown that sell 99-cent pizza slices are a good example. I think they are technically illegal.
> I think it's pretty deplorable that Skytrain stations don't have washrooms, but then there'd be additional expenses (& fare increases resultant), plus the vandalism. Why do ignorant humanoids need to go around destroying things?
I expect that they will all have blue lights in them,
(so you can't see your veins for injection sites),
as the one by the Surrey central Skytrain station has.
> I have stopped drinking coffee before my ride to work during the winter just because it's so hard to find any washrooms along my 50-minute bike commute.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "paul bogaert" <p...@thebikedr.com>
> To: trans-action@googlegroups.com
> Cc: v...@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:42:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [trans-action] Making streets safer for seniors
> I totally agree. I often struggle to locate bathrooms/toilets when out and about.
> in Japan i was totally amazed that i would find clearly marked toilets anywhere and everywhere! it was radically different than here where even the skytrain stations do not have a washroom.
> simple the things the city could do. change the requirements for business license applicataions to require public bathrooms for certain types of businesses. all gas stations must provide publicly available easily accessed working bathroom (and air/water), all restaurants, and retail shops. that would quickly go along way to easing the situation.
> pol
> On 10 May 2012 02:42, Richard Campbell < richard.campbell.li...@gmail.com > wrote:
> One of my goals. Hopefully completed way before I'm one.
> -- > The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators. > ? > To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > ? > To change to digest mode, view the list archive or otherwise manage your > status on the list, visit this group at: http://groups.google.com/group/trans-action
> -- > The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators. > ? > To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > ? > To change to digest mode, view the list archive or otherwise manage your > status on the list, visit this group at: http://groups.google.com/group/trans-action
> -- > The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
Most sidewalks have not been designed even to effectively and comfortably accommodate pedestrians and as you stated, maintenance is often very poor. Sidewalks were a creation of the motor vehicle lobby to get pedestrians off the streets to enable motor vehicles travelling at unsafe speeds. Turns out that this has been a failed and disastrous experiment that has cost likely hundreds of millions of lives around the world over the last century.
For most sidewalks, especially in North America, no efforts have been made to ensure that they can effectively accommodate any type of wheeled device. Even many curb cuts are badly designed.
> Thanks for your thoughts on this. I think we should concede that we live in grey mobility times. The MVA maintenance team was probably not thrilled to learn that they had to accommodate bicycles. The result isn't good, but at least it has been reviewed.
> Transport Canada hasn't gotten around to setting standards for PMDs. It's possible to purchase one and not be able to get it onto a transit vehicle because that imported batch of PMDs exceeds the allowable width. It would help to have PMDs specified, perhaps affording the opportunity to design them in a way that might offset some of the physical environment problems.
> To add to the greyness, I think sidewalks were intended to handle non-roadway traffic like strollers, bikes, trikes, letter carrier caddies, wheelchairs, roller skates, kick scooters, hopscotch, personal grocery carts and peds without segregation linearly. Graduating to mixed use trails, volume may necessitate signing, splitting of modes, etc.
> That said, you're right, the smoother the surface, the better for PMDs. Sidewalks tend to be old and in need of repair. Upgrades could be done on the basis of neighbourhood connections provided or with a US mentality:
> http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jan/30/local/la-me-sidewalks-20120131
> The consideration for PMD top end has led to bylaws in Europe setting their max speed at 6kph to maintain similar rates of sidewalk movement.
> Separated bike lanes are more of a cycling facility than a multi-use path which is why I think PMDs would add clutter.
> I think of roads as being for motor vehicles and knowledgeable cyclists. Sidewalks are where the remaining OWTs go. New West has taken this a step further my permitting sidewalk cycling in lesser congested areas.
> I know you're not a big fan of anecdotal data, but to confirm PMD users' need for a smooth surface, I asked one in a crowded store what would be the number one thing the City could do for her. She said, because of her broken back, go fix the g.d. potholes in crosswalks.
> Larry
> On May 10, 2012, at 5:55 PM, Richard Campbell wrote:
>> Most sidewalks tend to be not designed for wheel vehicles of any kind.
>> - Pedestrians are highly mobile and can easily move laterally to avoid each other and other obstacles. Wheeled devices work much better when there are lanes for each direction.
>> - Sidewalks are are often rather bump which can cause significant pain and discomfort to those confined to wheelchair like devices. >> - Curb cuts, if they exist, are often not correctly constructed and can cause PMD's to tip over. At any rate, they require them to slow down a lot
>> - PMDs can go significantly faster than peds making them a poor fir for sidewalks
>> For all these reasons, it is actually probably easier and less expensive to install well designed separated bike lanes to better accommodate PMDs rather than attempt to fix up sidewalks which, even after significant investment, would likely perform poorly for PDMs.
>> Regarding the law, for the reasons above, many PMD users use roads instead of sidewalks. All the current law does is decrease their legal rights in the case of a collision that is not or is not entirely their fault. It likely does not increase their safety is except in extreme cases, I can't imagine someone in a PMD getting ticketed for riding on the road.
>> To ensure their safety and everyone else's it is critical to lower speeds and design roads so that they are safer.
>> As witnessed by the horrific levels of collisions and injuries on our streets, if "user competence" was a requirement to use roads, they would be practically empty.
>> Richard
>> On 2012-05-10, at 3:13 PM, Larry Pamer wrote:
>>> Eric,
>>> I've been using ICBC info where possible to avoid reading the MVA. (I don't know how Colin does it.) If you scroll down to the bottom of page 84, it says that users of PMDs should be on the sidewalk:
>>> http://www.icbc.com/driver-licensing/Getting-licensed/drivers6.pdf
>>> In as friendly a way as possible, I disagree with allowing anything other than motorized vehicles and bicycles on the road. I have started referring to other roadway candidates as Other Wheeled Things. OWTs lack the agility, brakes, lights and user competence to qualify them to be out there in the slaughterhouse; I think it's 1.3 million road deaths annually as it is.
>>> As a wannabe community advocate, I would combine forces to convert local streets to two lanes, strip parking and put in sidewalks that could handle all the mobility devices necessary. Bylaws would manage compatibility of devices. Interesting to note that Oregon allows sidewalk cycling, if done courteously and at ped speeds.
>>> On May 10, 2012, at 11:31 AM, Eric Doherty wrote:
>>>> Larry,
>>>> Are you sure BC law actually clarifies that "Users of Motorized Personal Mobility Devices are considered to be pedestrians and are required to use sidewalks"? I don't think this is the case in BC, unless there has been a recent change in the law, which I understand used to be silent or ambiguous on the issue. If this is the law, cycling advocacy groups should be working to change the law to make it legal for people to use electric mobility scooters and electric wheelchairs in bike lanes, as they do already. People with disabilities could be powerful allies in campaigns for better cycling facilities.
>>>> Eric
>>>> On 10/05/2012 10:20 AM, Larry Pamer wrote:
>>>>> Another aspect of the urgency of supporting mobility for seniors is the baby boomers' "pig in the python" that's just around the corner.
>>>>> Users of Motorized Personal Mobility Devices are considered to be pedestrians and are required to use sidewalks. The Canadian Council of Motor Transport Administrators notes:
>>>>> 3.1 Market for MPMDs
>>>>> • Between 2009 and 2036, the 65 and over population in Canada is expected to double to around 10 million.
>>>>> • Nearly one-third of adults in Canada aged 65 and over have a mobility-related disability.
>>>>> • These trends will increase the number of elderly persons who will be unable to drive and who will, therefore, require alternatives to the personal vehicle for transportation.
>>>>> • Environmental and energy concerns may generate increased demand for smaller alternatives to traditional passenger cars for personal transportation.
>>>>> Fostering independence for those less mobile will put additional strain on sidewalks. The need for Urban Trails with adequate width will rank up there with separated bike lanes.
>>>>> On May 10, 2012, at 8:42 AM, paul bogaert wrote:
>>>>>> I totally agree. I often struggle to locate bathrooms/toilets when out and about.
>>>>>> in Japan i was totally amazed that i would find clearly marked toilets anywhere and everywhere! it was radically different than here where even the skytrain stations do not have a washroom.
>>>>>> simple the things the city could do. change the requirements for business license applicataions to require public bathrooms for certain types of businesses. all gas stations must provide publicly available easily accessed working bathroom (and air/water), all restaurants, and retail shops. that would quickly go along way to easing the situation.
>>>>>> pol
>>>>>> On 10 May 2012 02:42, Richard Campbell <richard.campbell.li...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> One of my goals. Hopefully completed way before I'm one.
>>>>>> -- >>>>>> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
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>>>>>> -- >>>>>> The trans-action list is for the discussion of transportation and land use issues. The list is not moderated or opinions expressed here do not necessarily reflect the views of the list administrators.
>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to trans-action@googlegroups.com
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to trans-action-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
On May 11, 2012, at 1:08 PM, Richard Campbell wrote:
> Most sidewalks have not been designed even to effectively and
> comfortably accommodate pedestrians and as you stated, maintenance
> is often very poor.
Sidewalks can be well designed. The new sidewalk over the Canada
Line along Cambie is wide and pleasant to walk on. Never any
conflict with a wheeled thing. Leads to Cambie villiage.
> Sidewalks were a creation of the motor vehicle lobby to get
> pedestrians off the streets to enable motor vehicles travelling at
> unsafe speeds. Turns out that this has been a failed and disastrous
> experiment that has cost likely hundreds of millions of lives
> around the world over the last century.
I don't know what, if any, historical accuracy is provided by
Gunsmoke, but I assumed Marshall Dillon used a sidewalk to get to
Miss Kitty's because of horse byproducts. I credit the auto lobby
with destroying street car systems and the oil lobby for duping the
US DoD into building the Interstate Highway System, but I'll have to
read more about this. I assumed cars were just heavily advertised
shiny objects and the purchasers did the damage. I didn't think
there was any auto company profit after the sale. (Any suggested
reading?)
> For most sidewalks, especially in North America, no efforts have
> been made to ensure that they can effectively accommodate any type
> of wheeled device. Even many curb cuts are badly designed.
I wonder if it's semantics. I'm proposing urban trails / mixed use
paths to encourage a cyclist, his parent on a PMD, and his wife
pushing a stroller to all go out to the town centre together. Grooming the path by fixing curb cuts would be part of the package.
>> Thanks for your thoughts on this. I think we should concede that
>> we live in grey mobility times. The MVA maintenance team was
>> probably not thrilled to learn that they had to accommodate
>> bicycles. The result isn't good, but at least it has been reviewed.
>> Transport Canada hasn't gotten around to setting standards for
>> PMDs. It's possible to purchase one and not be able to get it
>> onto a transit vehicle because that imported batch of PMDs exceeds
>> the allowable width. It would help to have PMDs specified,
>> perhaps affording the opportunity to design them in a way that
>> might offset some of the physical environment problems.
>> To add to the greyness, I think sidewalks were intended to handle
>> non-roadway traffic like strollers, bikes, trikes, letter carrier
>> caddies, wheelchairs, roller skates, kick scooters, hopscotch,
>> personal grocery carts and peds without segregation linearly. >> Graduating to mixed use trails, volume may necessitate signing,
>> splitting of modes, etc.
>> That said, you're right, the smoother the surface, the better for
>> PMDs. Sidewalks tend to be old and in need of repair. Upgrades
>> could be done on the basis of neighbourhood connections provided
>> or with a US mentality:
>> http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jan/30/local/la-me- >> sidewalks-20120131
>> The consideration for PMD top end has led to bylaws in Europe
>> setting their max speed at 6kph to maintain similar rates of
>> sidewalk movement.
>> Separated bike lanes are more of a cycling facility than a multi- >> use path which is why I think PMDs would add clutter.
>> I think of roads as being for motor vehicles and knowledgeable
>> cyclists. Sidewalks are where the remaining OWTs go. New West
>> has taken this a step further my permitting sidewalk cycling in
>> lesser congested areas.
>> I know you're not a big fan of anecdotal data, but to confirm PMD
>> users' need for a smooth surface, I asked one in a crowded store
>> what would be the number one thing the City could do for her. She
>> said, because of her broken back, go fix the g.d. potholes in
>> crosswalks.
>> Larry
>> On May 10, 2012, at 5:55 PM, Richard Campbell wrote:
>>> Most sidewalks tend to be not designed for wheel vehicles of any
>>> kind.
>>> - Pedestrians are highly mobile and can easily move laterally to
>>> avoid each other and other obstacles. Wheeled devices work much
>>> better when there are lanes for each direction.
>>> - Sidewalks are are often rather bump which can cause significant
>>> pain and discomfort to those confined to wheelchair like devices.
>>> - Curb cuts, if they exist, are often not correctly constructed
>>> and can cause PMD's to tip over. At any rate, they require them
>>> to slow down a lot
>>> - PMDs can go significantly faster than peds making them a poor
>>> fir for sidewalks
>>> For all these reasons, it is actually probably easier and less
>>> expensive to install well designed separated bike lanes to better
>>> accommodate PMDs rather than attempt to fix up sidewalks which,
>>> even after significant investment, would likely perform poorly
>>> for PDMs.
>>> Regarding the law, for the reasons above, many PMD users use
>>> roads instead of sidewalks. All the current law does is decrease
>>> their legal rights in the case of a collision that is not or is
>>> not entirely their fault. It likely does not increase their
>>> safety is except in extreme cases, I can't imagine someone in a
>>> PMD getting ticketed for riding on the road.
>>> To ensure their safety and everyone else's it is critical to
>>> lower speeds and design roads so that they are safer.
>>> As witnessed by the horrific levels of collisions and injuries on
>>> our streets, if "user competence" was a requirement to use roads,
>>> they would be practically empty.
>>> Richard
>>> On 2012-05-10, at 3:13 PM, Larry Pamer wrote:
>>>> Eric,
>>>> I've been using ICBC info where possible to avoid reading the
>>>> MVA. (I don't know how Colin does it.) If you scroll down to
>>>> the bottom of page 84, it says that users of PMDs should be on
>>>> the sidewalk:
>>>> http://www.icbc.com/driver-licensing/Getting-licensed/drivers6.pdf
>>>> In as friendly a way as possible, I disagree with allowing
>>>> anything other than motorized vehicles and bicycles on the
>>>> road. I have started referring to other roadway candidates as
>>>> Other Wheeled Things. OWTs lack the agility, brakes, lights and
>>>> user competence to qualify them to be out there in the
>>>> slaughterhouse; I think it's 1.3 million road deaths annually as
>>>> it is.
>>>> As a wannabe community advocate, I would combine forces to
>>>> convert local streets to two lanes, strip parking and put in
>>>> sidewalks that could handle all the mobility devices necessary. >>>> Bylaws would manage compatibility of devices. Interesting to
>>>> note that Oregon allows sidewalk cycling, if done courteously
>>>> and at ped speeds.
>>>> On May 10, 2012, at 11:31 AM, Eric Doherty wrote:
>>>>> Larry,
>>>>> Are you sure BC law actually clarifies that "Users of Motorized
>>>>> Personal Mobility Devices are considered to be pedestrians and
>>>>> are required to use sidewalks"? I don't think this is the case
>>>>> in BC, unless there has been a recent change in the law,
>>>>> which I understand used to be silent or ambiguous on the issue.
>>>>> If this is the law, cycling advocacy groups should be working
>>>>> to change the law to make it legal for people to use electric
>>>>> mobility scooters and electric wheelchairs in bike lanes, as
>>>>> they do already. People with disabilities could be powerful
>>>>> allies in campaigns for better cycling facilities.
>>>>> Eric
>>>>> On 10/05/2012 10:20 AM, Larry Pamer wrote:
>>>>>> Another aspect of the urgency of supporting mobility for
>>>>>> seniors is the baby boomers' "pig in the python" that's just
>>>>>> around the corner.
>>>>>> Users of Motorized Personal Mobility Devices are considered to
>>>>>> be pedestrians and are required to use sidewalks. The
>>>>>> Canadian Council of Motor Transport Administrators notes:
>>>>>> 3.1 Market for MPMDs
>>>>>> • Between 2009 and 2036, the 65 and over population in Canada
>>>>>> is expected to double to around 10 million.
>>>>>> • Nearly one-third of adults in Canada aged 65 and over have a
>>>>>> mobility-related disability.
>>>>>> • These trends will increase the number of elderly persons who
>>>>>> will be unable to drive and who will, therefore, require
>>>>>> alternatives to the personal vehicle for transportation.
>>>>>> • Environmental and energy concerns may generate increased
>>>>>> demand for smaller alternatives to traditional passenger cars
>>>>>> for personal transportation.
>>>>>> Fostering independence for those less mobile will put
>>>>>> additional strain on sidewalks. The need for Urban Trails
>>>>>> with adequate width will rank up there with separated bike lanes.
>>>>>> On May 10, 2012, at 8:42 AM, paul bogaert wrote:
>>>>>>> I totally agree. I often struggle to locate bathrooms/toilets
>>>>>>> when out and about.
>>>>>>> in Japan i was totally amazed that i would find clearly
>>>>>>> marked toilets anywhere and everywhere! it was radically
>>>>>>> different than here where even the skytrain stations do not
>>>>>>> have a washroom.
>>>>>>> simple the things the city could do. change the requirements
>>>>>>> for business license applicataions to
