JCO on Ted Kennedy in The Guardian

[Anthony]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/27/edward-kennedy-usa

-a.

[Kevin Frazier]

This is a fascinating article, given the way that Oates portrays Edward Kennedy in Black Water, and JFK and RFK in Blonde.  In her fiction, Oates has given a great deal of attention to the way that the Kennedys used and discarded women.  The question that she raises here, about whether good deeds can undo bad, whether the Kennedy mistreatment of women can be outweighed by their positive political actions, seems to me to run through many of the Oates novels in one way or another.  I'm reminded again of What I Lived For, an exceptional, ambitious book that I think is unfairly neglected.  The main character is a kind of minor Kennedy, an ambitious man who bulls his way through most situations with more energy than moral sense, yet whose basic drives seem to be decent and life-affirming, and who apparently ends up, like the Kennedys, being assassinated for his better actions while he has spent most of his life being rewarded for his worst.  I wonder if there are other readers who have thoughts on what looks to me like a career-long Oates fascination with the Kennedys, and if anyone else feels that there are other novels like What I Lived For dealing with the issues that the Kennedys appear to have raised in her imagination.

On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 3:30 AM, Anthony <ah...@yahoo.com> wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/27/edward-kennedy-usa

-a.

[Lennart Frimodig]

An excellent, and bravely timed article. I think she asks the correct
questions.

I say No to her basic question. He can´t be forgiven, he was, is and
remains an asshole. Certain acts can´t be rectified. Imo.

I am new here. Lennart Frimodig from Uppsala, Sweden, 65 years old. I
discovered Joyce Carol only recently. The diary book. Her productivity
and subjects (Marilyn Monroe) made me avoid her earlier. But after the
diary I am reading white girl/black girl, she is really interesting.

Normally I prefer authors like Coetzee and Naipaul. Or early Mailer
and James Jones.

Lennart Frimodig

[Virginia Bucci]

I am disappointed in the details of Oates' article, although I like it in
the broad brush. The questions are interesting, and I think are the right
questions to ask (although not the only ones). I disagree that there are
easy answers.

I wish she had not repeated practically verbatim the most outrageous version
of events-- i.e. the version accepted by the media at the time, which has
long since been tempered by the scientific and medical information uncovered
in various investigations. The idea that the victim died of an excruciating
hours-long suffocation is almost certainly untrue. 'Expert diver testimony'
regarding the tidal currents-- though it made Kennedy look like a liar at
the time-- turned out to be inaccurate. Strangest of all to me is the
continued oblivion to the state of a driver who has sustained significant
head and neck injuries while narrowly escaping drowing in a cold, strong
current. I survived a head-on auto crash; my injuries were far less thanks
to seat-belt and airbag, yet I had to piece together my memories with the
evidence of eye witnesses, and I never regained memory of the 5 miles or so
just prior. If you correct for the typical short-term amnesia that occurs
just before and just after head injury, it puts the accident in a time-frame
which fits with the available information.

Nevertheless. The facts of the case do not change the moral issues. That
JCO chose the "suffocation" theory as the basis for Black Water is no doubt
the correct literary choice and makes the important points in the most
salient way. Her terse summary of the 36-y.o. Kennedy as "another spoiled
younger brother of a well-to-do and influential family whose subsequent
success in politics had little to do with his own evident talent,
intelligence, or ambition": on target (tho he was subsequently a valuable
member of govt)

None of that makes me feel better about her taking the easy way out in
summarizing the accident for her recent essay.

Ginny

p.s. if Chappaquidick happened in today's era of weak-kneed morals, what do
you want to bet everyone would place all blame on the town for allowing the
death-trap bridge to stand?

[adva1]

It is very interesting to note the participants here in their opposing views, personal projections, and JCO's, it shows that no matter who we are, we are subjective in our view of the world and reality. What is the role of the writer then? Does he have moral obligation? Does he have also the obligation to better understand the events he is discussing in his books? I do not necessarily have the answer.

 

Myself, I am torn between the good that a person does for his family or town or country and the wrong doings that he also does. Would not perhaps the tragic event been a turning point in the life of 36 years old Ted who thought he could get away with anything, moved him to be the admired senator? Had I written a book about him, I would wish to consider that process.

 

But back to JCO, in books and theatre, there is the essence of drama which gives us the readers, the sense of excitement, interest and identification, rather more than we would when reading about it in the newspaper. There is also bound to be her own personal identification with Marilyn as the victim and Ted as the perpetrator, or John before him, while in truth, they were all both.

 

Adva

[Lennart Frimodig]

When I read her diaries, I meet a person who I can respect. She is honest, peculiar and wanting to understand. Her Jesus-analysis is very good, especially since she is an american. She explains the point of novel-writers.

She teach me things. Very few people do that. Her devotion to her husbands is very encouraging. She defines a whole new female attitude, very impressive. It is ok, I should not write that, ok.

The article in Guardian is a statement of how she sees the situation, it is not a novel, short-story or poem. I agree with her analysis. Imo, the silence of the family of the dead girl is especially bad. That is Stalin Russia, or Mao China. People are silenced. With threats, money or anything. If your daugher had been killed, would you have shut up?

If Ted Kennedy had came to me,after the C-affair,and asked what to do with the rest of his life? I would have said something like this:
First, you leave public life forever. Second, you put all your money, beyond personal substistence, in a fund. Third, you concentrate on helping people who have noone on their side. You use the money in the fund to help aids-people, rape victims, abandoned children and such. You change yourself into a kind of buddhist monk. You support the dead girls family from afar. You never talk to a journalist.

You solve the subjectivist problem with putting up objective criteria for things. very easy.

I don´t believe in Freud, I do no projections.

I believe in Karl Popper. Another austrian, with a different message.

Lennart Frimodig

________________________________

[adva1]

Lennart, very interesting, cannot say that I do not agree with you, ideally
I most definitely do.



But the Americans would say and on another professional list I heard
Americans give him accolades and forgive him his sins, that he did a lot of
good to the American people while in service. So who is to say? Who is to
know?



Thanks for mentioning Karl Popper, I will delve into him just now via google
and see why you recommend him.



Could you tell us some more on JCO's diaries?



Again about JCO, I wonder if Ted would have chosen your way, if it would
have made a good subject for her novels.



Also I suppose she has something to teach and write, because she is
passionate and cares. Or so it seems.



Adva

[Lennart Frimodig]

You think Joyce Carol is a moron, she bought these obvious lies. Obvious to you.

You think Ted Kennedy was a fall guy. You think she is just unfair.

If you are right, Joyce Carol should be abandoned.

I guess you have to decide.

Comitting to a definitive point of view entails responsibility.

Lennart Frimodig



________________________________

[Virginia Bucci]

These are such great questions, Adva.

 

What I value in a writer is the ability to take the broader view.  Black Water is often characterized as 'giving the victim [Mary Jo Kopechne] a voice.'  It seems to me a narrow goal with a polemical or legal angle. If that had been JCO's intent, she would have been bound by the facts of the case.  What she did, in fictionalizing the case and telling the story from the victim's point of view was to step out of the tangled facts and highlight the issues which have resonance for American society. 

 

One of the things that makes JCO an exceptional writer to me is that the situation she sets up, like a Greek myth, gives rise to many questions of import to society-- she is able to make the strings visible and follow the leads far enough to get readers pondering at the moral level.  This tiny book does that, like a tour de force, without spending much time on the Senator.  Placing the public in the shoes of the victim creates the balance necessary to consider many questions, not the least of which is, "How do I, as a media consumer and voter, contribute to the society which so easily gave rise to this tragedy?"

 

I agree with you that the question of Ted Kennedy's development is also fascinating. Family tragedies no doubt influenced him to become the paternal watchdog for the more helpless among his constituents. Yet without this senseless tragedy he might never have attained the necessary humanity and humility. 

 

Ginny

[adva1]

Lennart, I suspect that due to language barriers, that you do not fully
understand what I am saying. Also, I am raising questions and it is allowed
in discussion room/forums and so forth.



I never hinted, thought or said JCO is a moron. Had I thought so, I would
have been a member of this list.

Adva



-----Original Message-----
From: Lennart Frimodig [mailto:tonecl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
Lennart Frimodig
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 5:32 PM
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com

Subject: SV: [JCO:358] Re: JCO on Ted Kennedy in The Guardian



You think Joyce Carol is a moron, she bought these obvious lies. Obvious to
you.



You think Ted Kennedy was a fall guy. You think she is just unfair.



If you are right, Joyce Carol should be abandoned.



I guess you have to decide.



Comitting to a definitive point of view entails responsibility.



Lennart Frimodig







_____

[adva1]

Jinny, I have to confess that what you just said simply moved me. thanks.

 

Especially your last words. That sums it all up.

 

One research called Leopold Szondi developed (he created a system for psychiatrists for diagnosis of mental patients among other achievements) recognized what he called the Cain syndrome and the Moses syndrome. The Cain syndrome was seen in how Stalin who emerged from priests' seminary became a bully and a murderer. Kennedy has emerged after his sins as a Moses or an Abel and worked hard for the good of his people.

 

In my country we have had such a case only now, with one of the most known persons who rocketed to the sky and fell on his face and nearly became a murderer (he hired people to beat very hard television personas including a helpless woman while her son was watching). At the end he murdered himself (committed suicide). At the funeral the same considerations were spoken of, of the good man and the bad man and how confusing it is to judge or not judge, what to remember and what not.

 

Back to the victim- yes, the victims are seldom interesting enough. No books are usually being written about them, so giving a voice to that poor young woman, is a compassionate achievement.

<BR

[Max Alberts]

Good morning, friends, from glorious pre-autumnal St. Paul, Minnesota!   You guys think she's tough on Kennedy--that's nothing compared to the "royal" treatment she gave the Windsors after Diana Spencer's death. She referred to "the so-called 'royals'" and just blasted them to kingdom come--anyone remember that piece? --- On Sat, 8/29/09, Virginia Bucci <ginn...@comcast.net> wrote:

[adva1]

Hi all, I found this just now, I am sure you will like to discover new things about JCO.

 

A Woman’s Work (see below photo and text) very interesting - Adva

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Interview by DEBORAH SOLOMON

Published: April 10, 2009

As a professor at Princeton and America’s foremost woman of letters, you’re presumably aware that the title of your new short-story collection, “Dear Husband,” could lead the reader to expect a tender remembrance of your longtime husband, who died last year.
It was just the strangest kind of ironic accident. The manuscript was all finished before Ray died. The husbandsin the stories are nothing like him.

Skip to next paragraph

Christian Oth for The New York Times

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·                                 Deborah Solomon's "Questions For..." Column »

Related

Times Topics: Joyce Carol Oates

Indeed, the woman in the title story is writing to her “dear husband” to explain how she did God’s work by drowning their young children in the tub. Why do you find violence so alluring as a literary subject?
If you’re going to spend the next year of your life writing, you would probably rather write “Moby Dick” than a little household mystery with cat detectives. I consider tragedy the highest form of art.

Although you grew up near Buffalo, you have often been described as the heir tothe Southern Gothic imagination of Flannery O’Connor, with whom you share a Catholic background.
I could never take the idea of religion very seriously. Other Catholics thought that God really cared if they ate meat on Friday and would be upset. I never thought that God could care at all what you were eating.

One of the most chilling stories in your new collection, “Special,” appears to draw on your own experiences as the older sister of a severely autistic woman.
When I look at photographs of Lynne, she looks a bit like me. It’s really ironic that I have a sister who’s never uttered one word and of course can’t read, and I’ve written all these books.

Perhaps you had a phobic reaction to her and felt you had to go to the other exaggeratedly productive extreme.
I think it’s actually completely unrelated. I was writing novels in high school and apprenticed myself in a way both to Faulkner and to Hemingway. I was a dedicated writer before she was born.

As the author of 56 novels, 32 short-story collections, 8 volumes of poetry and countless essays and book reviews, do you think anyone has read everything you’ve published?
I think I’m the only one probably.

Do you see prolificacy as a virtue?
No. I really don’t even see myself as productive, especially in the past year.

Do you have an assistant?
No. I’m too shy to hire anyone. I couldn’t even bear the thought of it. I remember Margaret Drabble saying that it was really hard for her to hire a cleaning woman because it seemed like hiring her own mother. We’re from a background where we did the cleaning ourselves.

It’s not too late to amend your ways.
The cleaning is something I use as a reward if I get some work done. I go into a very happy state of mind when I’m vacuuming. I think some of my male colleagues, like Philip Roth and Don DeLillo, are completely denied this pleasure.

Have you thought about writing a memoir?
I wanted to write a memoir about being a widow. It was going to be the opposite of Joan Didion. Hers is beautiful and elegiac. Mine would be filled with all sorts of slapstick, demeaning and humiliating things. Like trash cans whose bottoms are falling out.

Do you think widowhood is properly understood?
I think that Didion took it on a very high plane, and she does have assistants and maybe a maid. But it’s actually a very hardscrabble experience. It’s not placid and tragic so much as it’s physically arduous.

In your stories, you favor dramatic endings. Shall we attempt one here?
Yes. I’m game.

I hear you just became engaged. True?
To say how I feel about my engagement to Charles Gross, who is in the psychology department and the Neuroscience Institute at Princeton, is not really possible in such a small space.

INTERVIEW CONDUCTED, CONDENSED AND EDITED BY DEBORAH SOLOMON

Sign in to RecommendMore Articles in Magazine » A version of this article appeared in print on April 12, 2009, on page MM12 of the New York edition.

Times Reader 2.0: Daily delivery of The Times - straight to your computer. Subscribe for just $3.45 a week.

Past Coverage

·                               The Dying of the Light (April 20, 2008)

·                               The Oates Diaries (October 7, 2007)

·                               IDEAS & TRENDS; Writers Take Out Their Knives (May 20, 2007)

·                               TBR: Inside the List (March 18, 2007)

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Adva

 

 

[Lennart Frimodig]

On the diaries 73-82.

She don´t revise or read old stuff, unless she is forced to. She doesn´t reread old letters.

Writing a diary is the complete opposite of writing for others.
Greg Johnson put it together, he seems ok. Every year is preceeded by a short introduction by him. She was harassed by AK. An american deadly phenomenon. She is this incredibly happy with her husband Raymond, no feminist at all.

It is most about the book she is writing at the time.

She doesn´t like Rilke (that is very bad if you are an author, you should like Rilke, I have not read Rilke, I seldom do what people tell me to do..)

On 730223 she had been married for 12 years, happy. She married when she was 22. Today she is 70 years old. Born on 16/6-39, I think she has a second husband, Raymond died.

She works as a teacher, she never read evaluations of her teaching. She did once, very embarassing.

She has takyardi.

Do with me what you will, was very personal, in her eyes. She doesn´t like to repeat that.

1974, she and Raymond starts Ontario Review.

Joyce Carol sees teaching as a kind of intellectual celebration.

The Assasins controls 1974, I will have to read that.

She likes to take long walks, hand-in-hand with Raymond. I don´t understand.

She doesn´t drink alcohol.

She sees herself as quiet, low-key, non-agressive and in no need for domination. But she was an anorechtic in her early 30ies, clearly a contradiction. Anorechtics are very aggressive, as are self-killers.

She doesn´t think that one book of hers can ever represent her. She is like in-between books all the time.

She got her home invaded, in Windson.

She miss out on using violence for political reasons. She doesn´t understand it is never allowed in a democracy.
In this case she is a dumb voice from her age.

She express a wrong attitude to suicide. She thinks it is mainly a question for us who are left behind, that is wrong. It is mainly a question for the individual committing the suicide, everything else is a side-issue. It is a personal choice.

She likes music, Ravel and Debussy.

This is the 54 fírst pages from the diary. A critical reading.

She is very ok.

In swedish, there is a very good interview-book about Joyce Carol by Stig Bjoerkman. She in incredibly honest. She tells things that she have never told before. (that is my guess).

Lennart Frimodig














________________________________

________________________________

[Lennart Frimodig]

I replied to Virginias comment.

Sorry.

Lennart Frimodig

________________________________

Från: tonecl...@googlegroups.com genom adva1

Skickat: lö 2009-08-29 18:45
Till: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
Ämne: [JCO:364] Re: JCO on Ted Kennedy in The Guardian



Lennart, I suspect that due to language barriers, that you do not fully understand what I am saying. Also, I am raising questions and it is allowed in discussion room/forums and so forth.



I never hinted, thought or said JCO is a moron. Had I thought so, I would have been a member of this list.





Adva



-----Original Message-----
From: Lennart Frimodig [mailto:tonecl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Lennart Frimodig
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 5:32 PM
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
Subject: SV: [JCO:358] Re: JCO on Ted Kennedy in The Guardian



You think Joyce Carol is a moron, she bought these obvious lies. Obvious to you.



You think Ted Kennedy was a fall guy. You think she is just unfair.



If you are right, Joyce Carol should be abandoned.



I guess you have to decide.



Comitting to a definitive point of view entails responsibility.



Lennart Frimodig

________________________________

[adva1]

Lennart, thanks for the information you are giving us on Oates.



I looked up in google and could not find any mention of her diaries. Could
you give me some information about it please?



Thanks, Adva



ennart Frimodig
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:10 PM
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
Subject: SV: [JCO:361] Re: JCO on Ted Kennedy in The Guardian

[Kevin Frazier]

Here's a link to the piece that Max Alberts mentions.  He's right -- it's well worth reading:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101970915-138283,00.html

Best, Kevin

[Virginia Bucci]

I am sorry Lennart if my message sounded insulting to you or to JCO. No
such intent here, I assure you. Joyce Carol Oates is my most revered
contemporary writer. Although I was surprised she excluded later
information, I have no doubt that as the author of Black Water she is
well-versed on all details, and chose her words carefully.

In fact I thank you for requiring me to think this over again! Regardless
of the facts of the case-- which are moot in the absence of trial-- JCO's
concern is in the moral truth that gave rise to the death of Mary Jo
Kopechne. From that angle, the important thing is not whether the actual
victim suffered for hours in panic, but that she could have. Stating
anything mitigating in that context might imply that her death was less of
a travesty.

Ginny

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lennart Frimodig" <Lennart....@integra-ab.se>
To: <tonecl...@googlegroups.com>

[Lennart Frimodig]

Hello,

I don´t get this.

In my swedish translation of the diaries, it says:

Title of american original: The journal of Joyce Carol Oates 1973-1982.
Cop 2007 Ontario. Published by HarperCollins.

Very good photo on the title page. (It is easy to make a bad picture of Joyce Carol)

It is your fucking book, I have a translation. It is your country.

Lennart Frimodig





________________________________

________________________________

________________________________

[Lennart Frimodig]

God,

you are very forgiving. (I am a relaxed atheist, don´t worry.)

Why was there no trial?
Why do you think the family of Mary Jo kept quiet? Keep quite? What is the value of Mary Jo`s life? What is fair to her?

Assuming this has happened to your sister, would you have kept quiet? Why?

What does this piece tells about Joyce Carol?

Lennart Frimodig

'

________________________________

Från: tonecl...@googlegroups.com genom Virginia Bucci

Skickat: lö 2009-08-29 19:26
Till: tonecl...@googlegroups.com

[Lennart Frimodig]

Thanks for that article.

It is a disaster. You can´t trust Joyce Carol. She is essentially completely wrong.

Diana did not live by truth. That is Joyce Carol´s myth. It suits her story.

Diana was a dumb beautiful blonde, to put it roughly. Many men seems to be attracted by that kind of women. I prefer black women with big behinds, personally.

There are insight in Joyce Carols article, but the main message is bullshit.

Sorry.

Lennart Frimodig

________________________________

[Kevin Frazier]

The book is very well-known in the United States.  Here's a review of it from the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/books/review/Campbell-t.html?fta=y

Living in Sweden, Lennart, you might not realize that only a fraction of the Oates oeuvre is published in your country, so it is very easy for Swedes to keep up with the small selection of her work that is translated there.  In the U.S., where all of her exceptionally large body of writing is actually published, very few readers have time to go through all of it.  Indeed, one reason we participate in this forum is to hear from readers who have read JCO books that we might not have had time to read ourselves. 

Best, K

[adva1]

Kevin thanks for the article, just read it.

 

I am not sure that I understand what she says really, probably just trying to weigh the complexities of Dianna's life, which were actually impossible complexities and thus unsolvable, much like Marilyn.

 

Adva

 

-----Original Message-----
From: tonecl...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tonecl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Frazier
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:22 PM
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com

[adva1]

I am wondering if the moderator of this list is in agreement with bad words
used here and with disrespect, no matter how truthful and sincerely said or
seem to be said out of sincerity.



I feel like being personally hit in the face with written aggression.



Advice anyone?

Adva



-----Original Message-----
From: Lennart Frimodig [mailto:tonecl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
Lennart Frimodig
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 8:09 PM
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com

Subject: SV: [JCO:371] Re: JCO on Ted Kennedy in The Guardian



Thanks for that article.



It is a disaster. You can´t trust Joyce Carol. She is essentially completely
wrong.



Diana did not live by truth. That is Joyce Carol´s myth. It suits her story.



Diana was a dumb beautiful blonde, to put it roughly. Many men seems to be
attracted by that kind of women. I prefer black women with big behinds,
personally.



There are insight in Joyce Carols article, but the main message is bullshit.




Sorry.



Lennart Frimodig



_____

< <mailto:tonecl...@googlegroups.com> tonecl...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 4:16 PM

Subject: [JCO:357] Re: JCO on Ted Kennedy in The Guardian

An excellent, and bravely timed article. I think she asks the correct

questions.

I say No to her basic question. He can´t be forgiven, he was, is and

remains an asshole. Certain acts can´t be rectified. Imo.

I am new here. Lennart Frimodig from Uppsala, Sweden, 65 years old. I

discovered Joyce Carol only recently. The diary book. Her productivity

and subjects (Marilyn Monroe) made me avoid her earlier. But after the

diary I am reading white girl/black girl, she is really interesting.

Normally I prefer authors like Coetzee and Naipaul. Or early Mailer

and James Jones.

Lennart Frimodig

On Aug 27, 2:30 am, Anthony <ah...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> <http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/27/edward-kennedy-usa>

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/27/edward-kennedy-usa

>

> -a.

[adva1]

Much obliged Kevin. Started reading it.

 

Adva

 

 

[Lennart Frimodig]

He asked, I answered.

Thanks for the review.

James Campbell`s Joyce Carol and my Joyce Carol are different people.
I share a lot of her peculiarities, he is just an on-looker.

So, I don´t think his review gives much insight. My suggestion is to read the diary and judge for yourself.

I realize.

Lennart Frimodig


________________________________

Från: tonecl...@googlegroups.com genom Kevin Frazier

[Max Alberts]

I agree--this person is extremely rude. --- On Sat, 8/29/09, adva1 <adva...@netvision.net.il> wrote:

[Jeffrey Smalldon]

I agree, too.   Jeff Smalldon --- On Sat, 8/29/09, Max Alberts <maxalbe...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Marian Reed]

Thanks Max, Alva, Ginny, others I may have missed, (and, especially JCO)...great questions raised.                                                                                                       Also, I agree that this format has no place for rude, crude and unacceptable language. My education included the instruction that such language merely shows the lack of a really good vocabulary to express strong emotions. Marian Reed 770-971-7852 --- On Sat, 8/29/09, Kevin Frazier <kevin.pau...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Marian Reed]

P.S. Do any of you know JCO's latest pen name and title of the detective story she recently wrote? Thanks. Marian Reed 770-971-7852 --- On Sat, 8/29/09, Marian Reed <meg...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[leslie caldarera]

This is what I tell my middle school students when they are being cyber bullied, which seems to be happening here, ignore him, Adva, his ugliness is not worth a moment of your intelligence.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: adva1 <adva...@netvision.net.il>

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 21:20:27
To: <tonecl...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: [JCO:378] Re: Bad language usage on this list

[Lennart Frimodig]

Wow, you think like that. This is your honest opinion. You think Joyce Carol is about acceptable language.

Interesting.

I will leave. I have no need to offend anyone.

I could not imagine that Joyce Carol attracted your kind of people. You think she gives a fuck about acceptable language. It is like spitting her in the face. But you don´t understand, it is ok.

I will keep your kind as a sort of reference. You tend to crop up everywhere.

Lennart Frimodig

________________________________

Från: tonecl...@googlegroups.com genom Marian Reed
Skickat: lö 2009-08-29 22:09
Till: tonecl...@googlegroups.com

Ämne: [JCO:383] Re: JCO on Ted Kennedy in The Guardian


Thanks Max, Alva, Ginny, others I may have missed, (and, especially JCO)...great questions raised. Also, I agree that this format has no place for rude, crude and unacceptable language. My education included the instruction that such language merely shows the lack of a really good vocabulary to express strong emotions.


Marian Reed
770-971-7852


--- On Sat, 8/29/09, Kevin Frazier <kevin.pau...@gmail.com> wrote:



From: Kevin Frazier <kevin.pau...@gmail.com>
Subject: [JCO:371] Re: JCO on Ted Kennedy in The Guardian
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
Date: Saturday, August 29, 2009, 1:21 PM


Here's a link to the piece that Max Alberts mentions. He's right -- it's well worth reading:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101970915-138283,00.html

Best, Kevin

On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Max Alberts <maxalbe...@yahoo.com <http://us.mc514.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=maxalbe...@yahoo.com> > wrote:


Good morning, friends, from glorious pre-autumnal St. Paul, Minnesota!

You guys think she's tough on Kennedy--that's nothing compared to the "royal" treatment she gave the Windsors after Diana Spencer's death. She referred to "the so-called 'royals'" and just blasted them to kingdom come--anyone remember that piece?

--- On Sat, 8/29/09, Virginia Bucci <ginn...@comcast.net <http://us.mc514.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ginn...@comcast.net> > wrote:

From: Virginia Bucci <ginn...@comcast.net <http://us.mc514.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ginn...@comcast.net> >
Subject: [JCO:363] Re: JCO on Ted Kennedy in The Guardian
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com <http://us.mc514.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tonecl...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Saturday, August 29, 2009, 10:40 AM


These are such great questions, Adva.

What I value in a writer is the ability to take the broader view. Black Water is often characterized as 'giving the victim [Mary Jo Kopechne] a voice.' It seems to me a narrow goal with a polemical or legal angle. If that had been JCO's intent, she would have been bound by the facts of the case. What she did, in fictionalizing the case and telling the story from the victim's point of view was to step out of the tangled facts and highlight the issues which have resonance for American society.

One of the things that makes JCO an exceptional writer to me is that the situation she sets up, like a Greek myth, gives rise to many questions of import to society-- she is able to make the strings visible and follow the leads far enough to get readers pondering at the moral level. This tiny book does that, like a tour de force, without spending much time on the Senator. Placing the public in the shoes of the victim creates the balance necessary to consider many questions, not the least of which is, "How do I, as a media consumer and voter, contribute to the society which so easily gave rise to this tragedy?"

I agree with you that the question of Ted Kennedy's development is also fascinating. Family tragedies no doubt influenced him to become the paternal watchdog for the more helpless among his constituents. Yet without this senseless tragedy he might never have attained the necessary humanity and humility.

Ginny





----- Original Message -----

From: adva1 <http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=adva...@netvision.net.il>
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com <http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tonecl...@googlegroups.com>

From: "Lennart Frimodig" <lennart....@integra-ab.se <http://us.mc514.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lennart....@integra-ab.se> >

To: "Tone Clusters: The Joyce Carol Oates Discussion Group"

<tonecl...@googlegroups.com <http://us.mc514.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tonecl...@googlegroups.com> >

Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 4:16 PM

Subject: [JCO:357] Re: JCO on Ted Kennedy in The Guardian

An excellent, and bravely timed article. I think she asks the correct

questions.

I say No to her basic question. He can´t be forgiven, he was, is and

remains an asshole. Certain acts can´t be rectified. Imo.

I am new here. Lennart Frimodig from Uppsala, Sweden, 65 years old. I

discovered Joyce Carol only recently. The diary book. Her productivity

and subjects (Marilyn Monroe) made me avoid her earlier. But after the

diary I am reading white girl/black girl, she is really interesting.

Normally I prefer authors like Coetzee and Naipaul. Or early Mailer

and James Jones.

Lennart Frimodig

On Aug 27, 2:30 am, Anthony <ah...@yahoo.com <http://us.mc514.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ah...@yahoo.com> > wrote:

> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/27/edward-kennedy-usa

>

> -a.

[Alana Ronald]

The role of the writer is to write. 

To: "Tone Clusters: The Joyce Carol Oates Discussion Group"

<tonecl...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 4:16 PM

Subject: [JCO:357] Re: JCO on Ted Kennedy in The Guardian

 

 

 

An excellent, and bravely timed article. I think she asks the correct

questions.

 

I say No to her basic question. He can´t be forgiven, he was, is and

remains an asshole. Certain acts can´t be rectified. Imo.

 

I am new here. Lennart Frimodig from Uppsala, Sweden, 65 years old. I

discovered Joyce Carol only recently. The diary book. Her productivity

and subjects (Marilyn Monroe) made me avoid her earlier. But after the

diary I am reading white girl/black girl, she is really interesting.

 

Normally I prefer authors like Coetzee and Naipaul. Or early Mailer

and James Jones.

 

Lennart Frimodig

 

On Aug 27, 2:30 am, Anthony <ah...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/27/edward-kennedy-usa

>

> -a.

 

 

 

[Gordon Pryce]

 
True.  The writer role is to write, - point blank.
 

---

From: alana...@videotron.ca
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [JCO:389] Re: JCO on Ted Kennedy in The Guardian
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 17:56:05 -0400

<BR

[Alana Ronald]

Thanks Gordon.

[Caldarera, Leslie]

Thank you for this, enjoyed it much!

Leslie Caldarera
Teacher Librarian
Edison Middle School
LAUSD

1263

There is no Frigate like a Book
To take us Lands away
Nor any Coursers like a Page
Of prancing Poetry-
This Traverse may the poorest take
Without oppress of Toll-
How frugal is the Chariot
That bears the Human soul.
Emily Dickinson

________________________________

From: tonecl...@googlegroups.com on behalf of adva1
Sent: Sat 8/29/2009 10:45 AM
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [JCO:367] Re: JCO interview



Hi all, I found this just now, I am sure you will like to discover new things about JCO.



A Woman's Work (see below photo and text) very interesting - Adva

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Interview by DEBORAH SOLOMON

Published: April 10, 2009

As a professor at Princeton and America's foremost woman of letters, you're presumably aware that the title of your new short-story collection, "Dear Husband," could lead the reader to expect a tender remembrance of your longtime husband, who died last year.
It was just the strangest kind of ironic accident. The manuscript was all finished before Ray died. The husbandsin the stories are nothing like him.

Skip to next paragraph <http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/12/magazine/12wwln-q4-t.html#secondParagraph#secondParagraph>

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Christian Oth for The New York Times

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* Deborah Solomon's "Questions For..." Column » <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/features/magazine/columns/questions_for/index.html?rss=1>

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Times Topics: Joyce Carol Oates <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/joyce_carol_oates/index.html>

Indeed, the woman in the title story is writing to her "dear husband" to explain how she did God's work by drowning their young children in the tub. Why do you find violence so alluring as a literary subject?
If you're going to spend the next year of your life writing, you would probably rather write "Moby Dick" than a little household mystery with cat detectives. I consider tragedy the highest form of art.

Although you grew up near Buffalo, you have often been described as the heir tothe Southern Gothic imagination of Flannery O'Connor <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/flannery_oconnor/index.html?inline=nyt-per> , with whom you share a Catholic background.

I could never take the idea of religion very seriously. Other Catholics thought that God really cared if they ate meat on Friday and would be upset. I never thought that God could care at all what you were eating.

One of the most chilling stories in your new collection, "Special," appears to draw on your own experiences as the older sister of a severely autistic woman.
When I look at photographs of Lynne, she looks a bit like me. It's really ironic that I have a sister who's never uttered one word and of course can't read, and I've written all these books.

Perhaps you had a phobic reaction to her and felt you had to go to the other exaggeratedly productive extreme.
I think it's actually completely unrelated. I was writing novels in high school and apprenticed myself in a way both to Faulkner and to Hemingway. I was a dedicated writer before she was born.

As the author of 56 novels, 32 short-story collections, 8 volumes of poetry and countless essays and book reviews, do you think anyone has read everything you've published?
I think I'm the only one probably.

Do you see prolificacy as a virtue?
No. I really don't even see myself as productive, especially in the past year.

Do you have an assistant?
No. I'm too shy to hire anyone. I couldn't even bear the thought of it. I remember Margaret Drabble saying that it was really hard for her to hire a cleaning woman because it seemed like hiring her own mother. We're from a background where we did the cleaning ourselves.

It's not too late to amend your ways.

The cleaning is something I use as a reward if I get some work done. I go into a very happy state of mind when I'm vacuuming. I think some of my male colleagues, like Philip Roth <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/r/philip_roth/index.html?inline=nyt-per> and Don DeLillo <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/d/don_delillo/index.html?inline=nyt-per> , are completely denied this pleasure.

Have you thought about writing a memoir?

I wanted to write a memoir about being a widow. It was going to be the opposite of Joan Didion <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/d/joan_didion/index.html?inline=nyt-per> . Hers is beautiful and elegiac. Mine would be filled with all sorts of slapstick, demeaning and humiliating things. Like trash cans whose bottoms are falling out.

Do you think widowhood is properly understood?
I think that Didion took it on a very high plane, and she does have assistants and maybe a maid. But it's actually a very hardscrabble experience. It's not placid and tragic so much as it's physically arduous.

In your stories, you favor dramatic endings. Shall we attempt one here?
Yes. I'm game.

I hear you just became engaged. True?
To say how I feel about my engagement to Charles Gross, who is in the psychology department and the Neuroscience Institute at Princeton, is not really possible in such a small space.

INTERVIEW CONDUCTED, CONDENSED AND EDITED BY DEBORAH SOLOMON

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Adva

[Gordon Pryce]

 
You're welcome Alana :)

 

---

From: alana...@videotron.ca
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [JCO:391] Re: JCO on Ted Kennedy in The Guardian
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 09:11:11 -0400

Thanks Gordon.

</HTML<BR

[Alana Ronald]

I'd rather see have a somewhat graphic, admittedly profane reply than a beautifully proper one that is hypocritical or insincere: but maybe that's just me....a child of the 6o's, whose tolerance to "bad" language may be greater than my need for "perfect" parlance.

[Alana Ronald]

Lennart, I'm with you. Keep up the "good" fight!

[adva1]

Alana, I think it all depends on the intention of the writer. When one wants to convey strong ideas, they can still say them without using curses which for me at least, are like receiving slaps in the face. I am myself with unusual opinions oftentimes, in my own field, so I can appreciate others', but I cannot tolerate for no good reason swearing and what comes as violence and aggression. The writer can either learn something from this or go away, if we do not signal to others when they are doing things which are hurtful, we are not necessarily helping them. at least that is how I see things.

 

Adva

 

-----Original Message-----
From: tonecl...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tonecl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alana Ronald
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 11:01 PM
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com

</TABLE<BR

 

[adva1]

Having reread Lennart's ideas of JCO, I wish to say that it is probably a misinterpretation on his part, though I wish we could have asked her about it.

 

Had she had not sense of right and wrong, she would not have written a great deal of her books. The fact that she describes people who are aggressive, does not mean that she identifies with them. Food for literary thought. Maybe someone can pick up this thread and say more, about her, not about the F word unnecessarily used.

 

Adva

 

-----Original Message-----
From: tonecl...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tonecl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alana Ronald
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 11:02 PM

[Jane Ward]

I don't think Lennart meant his choice of words to be a slap in
anyone's face, least of all yours, Adva. I think he was engaging in a
fascinating conversation with the members of this list. Language is a
problem even among people of the same country and culture. It is so
easy to misunderstand words typed in response to an email. I hope,
Lennart, that you will not drop off the list. Let us get to know each
other and to understand each other's use of words.

I was so surprised to get home to my computer this afternoon and find
this engrossing discussion going on the JCO list! These conversations
open my thinking up to take in account the responses of others.
Without this list, I am alone with my JCO. I enjoy sharing my JCO and
getting to know each of yours.

Jane

On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 5:27 PM, adva1<adva...@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> Alana, I think it all depends on the intention of the writer. When one wants
> to convey strong ideas, they can still say them without using curses which
> for me at least, are like receiving slaps in the face. I am myself with
> unusual opinions oftentimes, in my own field, so I can appreciate others',
> but I cannot tolerate for no good reason swearing and what comes as violence
> and aggression. The writer can either learn something from this or go away,
> if we do not signal to others when they are doing things which are hurtful,
> we are not necessarily helping them. at least that is how I see things.
>
>
>
> Adva
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tonecl...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tonecl...@googlegroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Alana Ronald
> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 11:01 PM
> To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [JCO:394] Re: Bad language usage on this list
>
>
>
> I'd rather see have a somewhat graphic, admittedly profane reply than a
> beautifully proper one that is hypocritical or insincere: but maybe that's
> just me....a child of the 6o's, whose tolerance to "bad" language may be
> greater than my need for "perfect" parlance.
>

--
Jane Ward
Peoria, Illinois
http://walkwithmepart2.blogspot.com/

[adva1]

Jane, you are very right and I perfectly agree, and I think I mentioned to
Lennart how I was happy that he has mentioned Popper for instance and I
think he had interesting ideas, but personally, I find it hard to take
aggression when none is called for precisely because I am sure in his
country no one talks that way and be accepted, and precisely because we are
from various places and need to respect each other.

So as I said, Lennart can choose to stay and enjoy the list, or he can go on
using bad language or tell us that we understand nothing about JCO (which is
true for everyone since is the reason we discuss her books) in which case I
will not open his mails and what a pity that will be.

[Alana Ronald]

Perhaps, Adva, you are highly sensitive and I do understand if that is the
case. My point, however, is that JCO being a proponent of appropriate
language usage; appropriate, here, meaning, "true" to life.

Sometimes when I hear teenagers swear on the street or in public transit, or
even within themselves within earshot of me within public purview I feel
like telling them their words hurt. I don't, however, experience this the
same way within the medium of the printed word.

I appreciate hearing a panoply of opinions on the subject, and I, along with
Jane, feel privileged to share our personal experiences with regard to JCO's
work and life.

[Carol Kean]

Profanity is over-used and unoriginal, like cliches. The "f" word has
no impact anymore, so school kids use "N" word or call each other Jews.

I don't equate profanity with sincerity nor clean speech with hypocrisy.

The fellow who said "you people turn up everywhere" is casting
judgments, and saying he should be free to be profane because JCO
wrote occasional profanities is puerile.

That's my opinion, worth every penny you paid for it. (And I was born
in the early sixties.)

[adva1]

I understand you very well and I do not think we have different opinions on
the usual way things happen on this list, other than using bad words. So we
shall see how things proceed and if they are just bad behavior clues or
something worse as I suspect or feel intuitively, hope to be wrong though.

Let us go back to our subject matter now.

[Oehling, Rick]

For all the profanity that is in a novel like What I Lived For, I have never heard JCO swear in interviews or even descend to the level of insult. I don't think anyone here was being over-sensitive. And why should a composed and polite response be less authentic than a hastily-written "profane" one?
I was born in the 1960's as well and I live in Madison, WI which is filled with old hippies. Right now there is an old hippy festival occurring around the corner. One thing I've noticed about some folks from that era is that they are every bit as attached to their own conventions and orthodoxies as anyone else. I'm surprised everyone didn't find a number of Lennart's remarks rude and aggressive. I wasn't bothered by the profanity as much as by the sweeping -- and rather hysterical -- hostility projected. I thought his message was as clear as it was one-dimensional.
Signing off,
Rick
________________________________________
From: tonecl...@googlegroups.com [tonecl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of adva1 [adva...@netvision.net.il]
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 6:09 PM
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [JCO:402] Re: Bad language usage on this list

[Alana Ronald]

"I don't equate profanity with sincerity nor clean speech with hypocrisy."

Neither do I, Carol.

If you read exactly what I wrote I indicated a preference, if push comes to
shove, towards a "real" rendition of language as opposed to a slant towards
perfectly proper form that might not exactly indicate a personal point of
view.

I was waiting to hear from someone like you who is roughly my age but you
are a little younger, I see. Not that THAT makes any bit of difference
necessarily, but for those of us who went through the 60's when distrust for
authority was rampant, we needed a swing 'round from the stultification of
the late 4o's, early 50's Betty Crocker/Dwight Eisenhower-style contraints
of conventional behaviour to counter and assert our Aquarian age message.

I will here confess I did not read ALL of Lennart's emails before replying,
but I think he was referring to the stereotypical "dumb blonde" as opposed
to really tarring all blondes with the same brush. I also suggest he may,
(forgive me, Lennart, if I'm misreading you here), have inserted the bit
about black women, the size of the bottoms he prefers, etc, to be
provocative and stir things up a little. I'm not saying it's an entirely
"appropriate" remark given the nature of this forum, but as someone may have
already written, it's up to us to set the parameters and how can we do this
unless someone tests the boundaries a little?

All in all, JCO gives us lots of material, not only for each our own
particular reading pleaures, but as fodder for a most enjoyable discussion.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carol Kean" <kean...@inabc.net>
To: <tonecl...@googlegroups.com>

[Alana Ronald]

Well put.

[Alana Ronald]

"that they are every bit as attached to their own conventions and
orthodoxies as anyone else"

Absolutely.

As for rudeness, aggression and hostility, I tend to ignore this at first
just in case it's a "one off" and as I mentioned to someone previously I am
skimming, most of my mind being focused elsewhere.

[Virginia Bucci]

Hello Rick, Alana, Adva, Lennart, et al... from an old hippy. Swearwords
do not bother this school ma'arm, who has to bite her tongue to stem the
flow of them at the slightest frustration. I do, however, use these
brightly-colored words to express anger, which is an emotion a bit
surprising to find in such a discussion. I found Lennart's "f'" [as well as
the "moron"] simply out of place, like farts in church as they say. One's
attempt to trade ideas with him elicited hostility and insult, as well as
seemingly purposeful misreading of the other's post. Nevertheless he is
to be congratulated for attempting such a thing in other than his native
language.

Ginny

----- Original Message -----
From: "Oehling, Rick" <oehl...@uww.edu>
To: <tonecl...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 6:45 PM

[Alana Ronald]

Brava, Ginny!

[Russ Morgan]

Yo, here comes the old nitpicking fussbudget again. You remember me? I'm
the one who made a big deal out of JCO's putting a scope on young
Hemingway's shotgun. Well, Lennie's crude language reminded me of the few
occasions when a student would direct a "forbidden" word at me, and if I was
in the mood, I would make it a "teachable moment".

I would tell the young culprit that using that kind of language required a
certain skill and talent. It needed practice and discrimination. Some have
the knack and can make music of it, whereas others are laughably clumsy at
it. (Are you listening, Lennie?)

I would then dust off old Lecture #137, and commence to classify the various
species of "Bad Language":

RELIGIOUS: Thou shalt not take the name of The Lord Thy God in vain.
Girls, every time you say "Oh my God!", you are being PROFANE; it is
PROFANITY. No? Yes!

BODY ELIMINATIONS: Everybody's got to eat and drink. Everybody's got to
eliminate what they eat and drink. We love to talk about what goes in. But
if we use the common words about what comes out, we're being VULGAR. Isn't
that curious?

SEX: Everybody got here because somebody else had sex. Yet we have to be
very careful about which words to use when describing sex or we will be
CRUDE, like poor Lennie.

Except Lennie wasn't using the sex word to talk about sex, was he? Here is
an irony: The word that should depict the most tender and sacred moment in
the lives of a man and a woman has been corrupted into the most violent and
abusive assault possible in the language.

I would say the role of a writer is to tell a story. A good writer, in one
way or another, makes the reader lose himself in the story, the old "willing
suspension of disbelief". To me, verisimilitude is key. I need to believe
the writer even while I know in the back of my head that it's fiction.
Otherwise, it's like the lights are low, the music's romantic, her cheek
tenderly brushes yours, her perfume is enchanting. Then the CD starts
skipping. Blowie!

[VIRGINIA J. KING]

ENOUGH ALREADY! GINNY K

----- Original Message -----
From: "Virginia Bucci" <ginn...@comcast.net>
To: <tonecl...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 7:57 PM

[Jeffrey Smalldon]

Thank you (Ginny K.).  Jeff --- On Mon, 8/31/09, VIRGINIA J. KING <vki...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:

[Marie Kabala-Rejment]

Adva,
I fully agree with you. I also live in Sweden and people are normal and
polite here so let's not talk about "culture clash" and different ways of
communicating. Lennart was simply rude and offensive for no reason at all.
It made me ashamed. You can have brilliant ideas and you may even resort to
bad language to express them (although I personally don't like this) but
being rude and offensive to others participating in the discussion cannot be
accepted. This is bullying and not a discussion.
Marie

----- Original Message -----
From: "adva1" <adva...@netvision.net.il>
To: <tonecl...@googlegroups.com>

[Lennart Frimodig]

Thank´s.

But here, I obviously come across as pretty rude, to a number of people. Why?

Language is one thing. Since I never lived in an english-speaking country, I was never forced to understand the emotional content of questionable english. I was never forced to understand the emotional content of ordinary english either, for that matter.
Interestingly enought I prefer to read Joyce Carol in swedish, partly because the translators are very good. (You know, the devoted females, working behind the screens.) Partly because swedish tells me more. US english seems to be a language suited to naive people.

Personality is another, and the main thing. In mbti I am an intj. A rational and judging type. mbti is about 30 % science, the rest is speculation. In the big five, I am low on extroversion, neuroticism and agreeableness. Average on conscientiousness and very high on openness. The big five is perhaps 55 % science. The point is, I don´t understand beforehand how people will react. I just go for honesty.

Then, it is the Popper thing. I believe in wild conjectures and severe refutations, in the rational discussion of anything, including Joyce Carol. To get nearer to truth, the only really interesting thing.

And, I am no normal swede, most of us are just like people on this group.

In the diaries, Joyce Carol, indirectly, tells why she have no children, when she comments on child-upbringing. Anyone seen that?

Lennart Frimodig

________________________________

[Alana Ronald]

Joyce was obviously bullied, abused,or something related

[adva1]

Alana, I have not heard anything about this but if it is true, it clarifies her subjects of great violence. When I heard her lecture, she sounded delicate and tender and careful with her words and very cultured. Through her writing she can bring up the pain and the hurt which she shares with millions others who were hurt. But she does not hurt others, does she? By the way, despite what I said just now about her, her handwriting (I am graphologist), shows strength. Delicacy and strength obviously created a wealth.

<BR

[Alana Ronald]

her handwriting (I am graphologist), shows strength. Delicacy and strength obviously created a wealth.

 

RIGHT

[Alana Ronald]

:)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jane Ward" <jwar...@gmail.com>
To: <tonecl...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 5:37 PM

[Max Alberts]

Joyce Carol Oates has written of her early life many times: a strong, loving family, very poor but obviously intelligent and cultured. Her childhood was marked by almost daily exposure to bullies and various other violent, even depraved, individuals. Her powerful imagination and dynamic literary talent reflect that past, sometimes head-on, sometimes obliquely. You can find more information on her in the biography, INVISIBLE WRITER, by Greg Johnson, or you can read Oates's own words in the first published volume of her journal. --- On Mon, 8/31/09, Alana Ronald <alana...@videotron.ca> wrote:

From: Alana Ronald <alana...@videotron.ca> Subject: [JCO:414] Re: SV: [JCO:383] Re: JCO on Ted Kennedy in The Guardian To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com

[adva1]

Actually I am suddenly remembered by what I read about Oates past of violent granddads…also of their violent deaths. I have some psychological explanation but will refrain.

 

I strongly believe that those who are sincere writers, cannot refrain but write by their very own material even if they write about Marilines or Kennedies.

[Jane Ward]

Lennart, are you saying that you think devoted females work behind the
screens to translate English to Swedish? Translation does not seem to
be gender related to me. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.

I also don't understand why you think US English is a language suited
to naive people. English is a wonderfully rich language with many
possibilities for meaning, which is why we have problems understanding
each other in forums like this, where we type a response without
taking the time to revise and select our words more precisely. I can
understand your preference to read JCO in your native language, but in
doing so, you are missing out on her very precise use of English
words.

Your use of English intrigues me.

Jane

On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 12:34 PM, Lennart
Frimodig<Lennart....@integra-ab.se> wrote:

(You know, the devoted females, working behind the screens.) Partly
because swedish tells me more. US english seems to be a language
suited to naive people.

--

[Lennart Frimodig]

One. In Sweden, at least, it is well-known that middle-aged women are the backbone of culture. In translating it is a more complicated picture. In some languages, like polish-swedish, there is (are) nearly only men translating. But quality english-swedish, seems like a woman domain.

And, of course, I have an underlying hypothesis that women are behind much work that males get credit for. And, I expect that gradually women will dominate more and more the coming 100 years, many new areas. They have taken over the prosecuter-role in Sweden. And as women make careers fewer children will be born. I am no feminist.

Two. The people using US english that I meet, are like the characters in Bones, a tv-series I like. They talk like children. The same is true (imo) of many us movies. The characters express themselves like children. It is a feeling I get, not easily explained. Of course I might be completely wrong.

I theoretically know the english language is very rich, not least comparered to my primitive language. In terms of words, nuances and such. Possibilities of expressing things.

I know, theoretically, it is best to read things in the original language. But I got a new insight. Joyce Carol makes a stronger impression on me, when I read her in a good swedish translation. When I read her in english, she is tainted by the whole culture. This is all personal shit, don´t worry. You read her in your own language. I wonder if you can understand this. (I have no idea what anyone can understand, I never know what to explain, and what to skip explaining. I get surprised every time. The personality shit.)

Three. I translate. I think in swedish, then I translate into english. When I studied theoretical philosophy at the University of Uppsala in 1965-66, I translated simple sentences into logic. (Of course I mention this to brag.) It was somewhat more difficult than writing in english. What I wrote about being forced into understanding emotional content, I think is somewhat important.

And, I miss out on most things. It is the way of the world. I don´t worry about that.

I think you extract in a bad way. In my world you quote the whole shit.

I tell a story about language. I coached a suddenly unemployed chinese atomic structure scientist at the Angstroem laboratory. (I understand shit about that.) He spoke bad swedish and was afraid to speak in swedish. He had been in Sweden for 16 years, now a swedish citizen. His physical laboratory had choosed a direction where his ability was useless. He was out in the cold. Everybody had accepted his english. And he was like me, he made no social connections. He never drank coffe with work-comrades, or take part in other social activities. He carried out his work. Essentially he did not know what happened when he was let go. But he was really meaningful to coach. He realized he had to change, he had to learn swedish to understand this fucking society. There is no way out. Together we worked on his old network, and he discovered a position 350 km from Uppsala. You travel by weeks. He went for that. And decided to learn fluent swedish. Unless you understand the language of the country you live in, you are for-ever fucked. You can´t defend yourself.

It is ok.

Lennart Frimodig





________________________________

Från: tonecl...@googlegroups.com genom Jane Ward

[Lennart Frimodig]

Exposure to bullies in her diary, where is that? I found one important place, I wrote a letter to my local newspaper to create a child-defender in every school and pre-school. Someone who is independent of the hierarchy of the school or institution. Someone on the side of the child. Unconditionally. I know, it is ok.

Lennart Frimodig

________________________________

[Jane Ward]

Wow, Lennart, thanks for that explanation. I understand you better
already. (Adva, please forgive profanity unless it is directed with
hostility; sometimes it works best to explain feelings as in this
message.)

I have no idea whether males or females dominate the translation
business, but your remarks are interesting, and make me wonder why it
would be that way.

I don't know Bones the TV series, but I got your drift that Americans
(that's what we call ourselves over here) do talk like children. Most
are not well educated, resulting in a huge underclass and a middle
class without ambition to education beyond what is necessary to get a
job after high school.

When you said that you translate when you read in English, I
understood completely. I can read French, but I translate as I read,
and I translate as I write. And I'm not good at it so I don't even try
to get on any French discussion lists. You are very brave and
confident to come on here and get into these discussions. I am
grateful that you do so because you have opened my eyes to things I
had not considered before.

When you say, "I think you extract in a bad way. In my world you quote
the whole shit." do you mean that I clipped a quote from your
response? I appologize if that bothered you. It is something I do to
shorten the email message. I'll keep your entire response in future
emails if that is the case.

Intrigued,

Jane

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 12:25 PM, Lennart

[Gordon Pryce]

Hello Everyone,

 

Lennart, I must admit – like Jane, you intrigue me too.  I have a total dichotomy of (mixed – for emphasis) emotions where you are concerned.  You remind me of Hotspur in Shakespeare’s Henry IV First Part.  You cannot love this guy but by-and-by – you cannot hate him either.

 

I look forward to seeing how things develop on this online JCO reading club.

 

Sincerely,

Gordon

 > Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 19:17:01 -0500
> Subject: [JCO:423] Re: SV: [JCO:420] Re: SV: [JCO:398] Re: Bad language usage on this list
> From: jwar...@gmail.com
> To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com

[Virginia Bucci]

I have just ordered "Lauren Kelly"'s three mysteries.  Has anyone else read them, or will someone consider reading one or all of them, so we can discuss?

 

ginny

[Alana Ronald]

I'm prejudiced in favour of guys like Leonard who just lay it all out there, warts and all.  Bravo, Len, although you are who you are and I imagine that's just how you're made.

 

I have not a clue about Len's IMG, (or whatever appellation, abbreviation, indices, this is.)  Can you explain Lennart, for my edification, please?  Looks like some personality index.  Medical model? 

 

I understand Lennart's calling N. Americans naive, but at the same understand that some might take this as an insult.  I don't:  it's just a short form way of saying Americans, with their shorter history, reliance, in general, on more prevalent right-wing news media, oh, I seem to be expressing myself badly here.  Sorry, folks, I'm reeling from the shock of finding my boss passed out on the floor after suffering a stroke.  better sign off and rest

----- Original Message -----

From: Gordon Pryce

To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 3:10 PM

[Virginia Bucci]

Oh, so totally wrong, Alana!  sorry but I just had to speak up.  Regarding the N Americans. that is...

 

Don't forget, we watch your TV, too! 

 

I will acquiesce to the difference cited (NA vs UK, that is) in this way:

 

You over there are OK with, that is to say honestly admitting, class differences as indicated by how the language is spoken.  My Fair Lady and all that. Our view would be:  In the UK, each  class speaks its own way, and anyone may assess another's class just by listening.  On this side of the pond we have this "politically correct" thing going on, which means, we prefer to pretend that all men are created equal-- sorry, we just don't buy into class differences--  and the way we play it out is by trying to establish a "happy medium."  Or to say it another way, "when in Rome, do as the Romans do."

 

So...  Don't know how far I can get with this.  The idea is:  we over here place a much higher value on being able to communicate as humans across that class/education divide.  So, if we can make a connection Christian to Muslim, or upper-class to working-class by finding the right level of language to use, that is a highly-valued achievement.  As opposed to the relatively simple upper-to-lower smackdown effected by using the vocab one learned in the Ivy League.  SO....  When Lennart says, we North Americans sound like children, by comparison to the Brits, in our use of the language....   I would have to respond, "Yes, Lennart, you are  beginning to understand what it is to be an American." 

 

Ginny

[Jane Ward]

What a strange turn in conversation Lennart has begun! I do think
we've all been making sweeping generalizations. I don't think it is
so much that Americans don't value being able to communicate as humans
across class/education divides as that our classes are segregated from
each other. They do not overlap, unless deliberately as with our
magnate school system for performing arts, drawing from all
communities in the school district. Unfortunately, the USA remains a
highly segregated community, with poorer people not getting education
and perpetuating more poverty. Middle class chances are getting
slimmer with this economic turn. They do not value education. TV is
dumbed down and that works across culture lines, homogenizing the
culture norm. Just my opinion of course.

[Alana Ronald]

I get the general sense of what you're trying to say,  Ginny, but I thought Lennart was saying N. Americans are naiive compared to Swedes, in general. And wouldn't it be more "politically correct" and polite and all that to say, instead of "wrong", that we have a misunderstanding or disagree? Hair splitting?   

 

 Anyway, to guide this back to JCO, a quintessentially American, interestingly only fairly recently finding her German roots were German/Jewish, I will say she's a case in point of the extremely bright, EXCEPTION to what I believe Len was trying to express, I believe.  JCO's highly educated, bright, sensitive, canny, (with an uncanny ear for the vernacular) and NOT NAIIVE.

 

She writes what she knows, and MORE: what she imagines in that fascinating brain.  Not particularly a fan of the Gothic, I've skipped over her books in that genre, but admire so very very much her ability to give full vent and expression to so much of her monumental talent.  It's as if she is a medium possessed, driven by not only her demons but her angels and channeling whatever and/or processing the sum total of her life and literary experiences and psychic adventures. In awe of her skills and ferociously prolific outpourings, I simply can't really get enough of her writing.  On another hand, because it is so rich and dense with lovely language, joy, anger, dark and light intertwined like a gorgeous tapestry, I find I need space after reading one or two or possibly three, max, to ponder, digest and ruminate.

 

She's simply superb, top of the tree in my book, and her courageous exploration of so much staggers. She seems, on one hand, a sort of American cousin to Anais Nin, devoted, and almost consumed by her art. Is this making sense? If I see these two authors as accolytes does that resonate with anyone here? 

 

Signing off....sleep calls 

[Virginia Bucci]

Haha quite right Alana, calling someone "wrong" is hardly politically correct! :-)   Excuse my rudeness.  I think Jane is right, we've all begun to make sweeping generalizations-- you too, Jane, by the way!  Your description of "American" (highly segregated, magnet schools etc) sounds like city and dense suburb-- growing up rural everyone was thrown together.  And sttropez, I grew up in an ivy league town as well, but ours had a preponderance of foreign students, and foreign travel was considered a very basic part of a cultured education.  [An incredible culture clash with the surrounding yokel hamlets as one can imagine!!)  You just cannot generalize very much, and certainly not from mainstream TV shows which since the advent of cable have as Jane points out sunk to the lowest common denominator.

 

I very much loved JCO at first "read".  In many of her novels, I heard the voice of unsophisticated country people, like those among whom I was raised, clear as a bell.  No sentimentalism, no pity, but rather a drive to expose the tangle of motivation and circumstance which separates people into powerful and powerless, looking, like Diogenes, for anyone who has the moral compass to rise above the easy reaction. Her search has taken her since then among many classes and cultures of people, though her theme remains pretty much the same.  I can think of few novels which stand out with the same richness, depth of perception, and sheer readability... The Great Fire by Shirley Hazzard..  Housekeeping by Marilynne Robinson..  The Known World by Edward P Jones.. The Sea by John Banville..  these are a few of the best books I've read; many of JCO's novels are on a par with these, I believe.

 

ginny

[Alana Ronald]

[Lennart Frimodig]

You are a nice person.

From my experience in Sweden, I would guess that women have more open minds. They get more out of novels, theatrical plays, classical music, poetry, paintings. For some peculiar reason, I suspect men get more out of architecture. I don´t understand why architecture is a male speciality.

You don´t get much credit for being an excellent translator. Hidden areas are areas where women dominates. My wild guess is, that up until now. men defined the rules of the game. That is one aspect. The other is that men are the lunatic fringe, positive and negative. A great majority of severe mental cases in every country are men. A great majority of Nobel Prize winners in anything, are men. Great novelists, like Joyce Carol, play on male territory. I think she is very important as a positve example for young girls. They should read her diaries to meet a soul-partner.

I was trying to make the point, that in US, it seems ok to make an appearance as a child. Whether you are a president candidate, a candidate for the Supreme Court, or a governor. None of them seems the least bit embarassed by appearing too naive, or common. Appearing really intelligent don´t seem all that smart in their position. In total contradiction to the french. But, in my world, I learn from some Harvard and Yale people. You have the best.

When I was on the intj-list, (introverted, idea persons, strictly rational, judging) I learned to be very careful about what I erasede, when I responded. You have to keep everything relevant to the mail you are commenting on. Relevant to the person you comment on.

[Carol Kean]

Lennart, we can agree on this,

Great novelists, like Joyce Carol, play on male territory. I think
she is very important as a positve example for young girls. They
should read her diaries to meet a soul-partner.

But this almost sounds like flame throwing, or my experience is way
more limited than yours, or you like to stir up controversy, or, or,

> From my experience in Sweden, I would guess that women have more
> open minds. They get more out of novels, theatrical plays,
> classical music, poetry, paintings.

Funny, those are still male dominated playing fields, and yet women
are more receptive or perceptive than--

Oh, I don't have time for this.

Carol

[Lennart Frimodig]

Yes, we agree.

What do you have to have time for?

Reading and thinking about Joyce Carol and her visions makes your life better. You should make time for that.

Lennart Frimodig

________________________________

[Lennart Frimodig]

I sometime do a short-course in self-enhancement. (I coach a whole lot of different people, a lot of methods are required to get to their souls.)
You accept two sentences. One. What anyone express about you is their opinion, their problem. Two. If you think they speak the truth, you listen, otherwise it is about them and their problems.

I guess you mean well. It is ok.

Lennart Frimodig



________________________________

Från: tonecl...@googlegroups.com genom Gordon Pryce
Skickat: on 2009-09-02 21:10
Till: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
Ämne: [JCO:424] Re: SV: [JCO:420] Re: SV: [JCO:398] Re: Bad language usage on this list


Hello Everyone,

Lennart, I must admit - like Jane, you intrigue me too. I have a total dichotomy of (mixed - for emphasis) emotions where you are concerned. You remind me of Hotspur in Shakespeare's Henry IV First Part. You cannot love this guy but by-and-by - you cannot hate him either.

[Lennart Frimodig]

What is IMG? I never mentioned that.

You mean intj? It is the Meyer-Briggs interpretation of Jung. 16 personality types. 30 % science.

Where did you learn that my first name is Leonard. it is Lennart.

You lost your boss, I am a boss. It is not a completely comfortable position. I admit that.

Lennart Frimodig


________________________________

Från: tonecl...@googlegroups.com genom Alana Ronald
Skickat: to 2009-09-03 00:20
Till: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
Ämne: [JCO:426] Re: SV: [JCO:420] Re: SV: [JCO:398] Re: Bad language usage on this list


I'm prejudiced in favour of guys like Leonard who just lay it all out there, warts and all. Bravo, Len, although you are who you are and I imagine that's just how you're made.

I have not a clue about Len's IMG, (or whatever appellation, abbreviation, indices, this is.) Can you explain Lennart, for my edification, please? Looks like some personality index. Medical model?

I understand Lennart's calling N. Americans naive, but at the same understand that some might take this as an insult. I don't: it's just a short form way of saying Americans, with their shorter history, reliance, in general, on more prevalent right-wing news media, oh, I seem to be expressing myself badly here. Sorry, folks, I'm reeling from the shock of finding my boss passed out on the floor after suffering a stroke. better sign off and rest

----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon Pryce <mailto:g.p...@hotmail.com>
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 3:10 PM
Subject: [JCO:424] Re: SV: [JCO:420] Re: SV: [JCO:398] Re: Bad language usage on this list

Hello Everyone,

Lennart, I must admit - like Jane, you intrigue me too. I have a total dichotomy of (mixed - for emphasis) emotions where you are concerned. You remind me of Hotspur in Shakespeare's Henry IV First Part. You cannot love this guy but by-and-by - you cannot hate him either.

[Lennart Frimodig]

What is your idea about Karl Popper?

Lennart Frimodig

________________________________

Från: tonecl...@googlegroups.com genom adva1
Skickat: må 2009-08-31 00:46
Till: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
Ämne: [JCO:399] Re: Bad language usage on this list




Jane, you are very right and I perfectly agree, and I think I mentioned to
Lennart how I was happy that he has mentioned Popper for instance and I
think he had interesting ideas, but personally, I find it hard to take
aggression when none is called for precisely because I am sure in his
country no one talks that way and be accepted, and precisely because we are
from various places and need to respect each other.

So as I said, Lennart can choose to stay and enjoy the list, or he can go on
using bad language or tell us that we understand nothing about JCO (which is
true for everyone since is the reason we discuss her books) in which case I
will not open his mails and what a pity that will be.

Adva


-----Original Message-----
From: tonecl...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tonecl...@googlegroups.com]

On Behalf Of Jane Ward
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 11:38 PM
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com

> Adva
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tonecl...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tonecl...@googlegroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Alana Ronald
> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 11:01 PM
> To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com

> Subject: [JCO:394] Re: Bad language usage on this list
>
>
>
> I'd rather see have a somewhat graphic, admittedly profane reply than a
> beautifully proper one that is hypocritical or insincere: but maybe that's
> just me....a child of the 6o's, whose tolerance to "bad" language may be
> greater than my need for "perfect" parlance.
>

[The Garretts]

Lennart must be having a whole lot of fun with you guys over this bad
language business! Perhaps the offense is just a hang over from the
Puritans who settled this great nation. It certainly doesn't bother me.
Actually, I have been observing these emails for months now and have found
them to be quite tedious with folks taking themselves rather seriously -
it's been quite refreshing to hear from a 65 year old guy who still appears
to have some balls!

There's clearly an awful lot of love and admiration for CJO, but I am
wondering, are any of you writers, or aspiring writers?

I became included on this list months ago when I asked a question about a
particular poem that I thought might have been written by CJO. When I was
about thirteen my English teacher read a poem that had a profound effect on
me, or perhaps it's effect was actually on my soul. The poem was spoken in
the voice of a unborn child who was about to be aborted. I, myself survived
an abortion in the 1960's. This poem really resonated with me and I thought
perhaps CJO wrote it. Any ideas as to whether this might be the case? I
guess I am looking for the "voice" that spoke so profoundly to my soul as a
thirteen year old, and I'm wondering if that voice was hers.

X Joanna

X Joanna

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lennart Frimodig" <Lennart....@integra-ab.se>
To: <tonecl...@googlegroups.com>

[Carol Kean]

I've written two novels, Joanna, and the second was inspired (or
rather, the concept for it was reinforced) by the vigilante cop in
Rape: A Love Story. I love JCO's style and look to her as a role
model. I try not to copy her style -- but I'm also told it can be a
form of exercise for artists to copy paintings of the masters and
then move on to find their own style. And so, in any book I read, if
I love a certain passage, I copy it longhand into a notebook.

Hey, your story is incredible -- surviving an abortion!! If you've
written about it, please send it to me offlist, if you wouldn't mind.

Sorry I can't answer your question but what a story you have.

Carol

[pamela sloan]

Max: thank you for recommending the JCO biography by Greg Johnson.  I'm about half way through the book, and am finding it well-researched and informative.  I knew a bit about her diverse family background after reading "A Gravedigger's Daughter" and doing a bit of minor research on the internet. But this biography is so far putting into context many of her novels' themes, the characters' psychological torments, dilemmas, etc.    It inspires me to go back and re-read some of her books that I read many years ago -- Marya A Life comes to mind -- as well as read those books that I have not yet read, which are too many to count.  Thanks again, Pamela