MAKE proposal for the DARPA MENTOR program

[Jack Bailey]

Hi Guys,

Long time lurker, first time poster!

As many of you will know, MAKE (O'Reilly Media) recently made a
successful DARPA MENTOR proposal. MAKE will receive funding from the
Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) to encourage US
schools to engage more kids in acquiring the technical skills and
creativity desperately needed by the US Department Of Defense.

There has been a lot of discussion on the web recently regarding
various aspects of the MAKE MENTOR proposal, partly because of
Mitchell Altman's very public withdrawal from MakerFaire over the
"military money" that MAKE will now have access to. Most of this
discussion has consisted of hyperbole, disinformation and conspiracy
theories.

As a former employee of the DoD, a proud American, and a self-
confessed hacker/tinkerer/maker based in Tokyo, I'd like to point out
a few realities that seem to have been lost in the debate.

By helping the young people of America develop(via the MENTOR program)
the ability to make new things and inviting them to become makers,
MAKE is playing a vital role. It is essential that the DoD has access
to the people and technologies needed to keep Americans safe and to
preserve the American Way.

For example, the US currently requires 15% of the world's energy, and
we will need more as the living standard of all Americans continues to
rise. To meet this rising demand, we must ensure our energy security
by safeguarding US oil interests in the Middle East, and our mineral
interests in Africa. MAKE's mentor proposal will help DARPA and the
DoD meet this challenge, enabling them to rapidly prototype, test and
deploy transport and weapons systems for use in extremely hostile
environments.

Just to give one example from the MENTOR program; the "Adaptive
Vehicle Make" project seeks to "dramatically compress development
times for complex defense systems such as military air and ground
attack vehicles." Basically this could include mine clearing and mine
laying (anti-tank, not anti-personnel) vehicles, truck-mounted area-
denial systems and the next-generation of less-than-lethal devices for
civil disorder control.

I'm sure you'll all agree that it's reassuring to know the current
generation of young Makers will be working together with DARPA and the
DoD to create next-generation clothing, tools and weapons for
tomorrow's Warfighters. The US is the world's police force and our
brave Warfighters in the Army, Navy and Air Force put themselves in
harm's way to defend democracy and the free market at a time when they
face threats from all sides. Clearly anything that MAKE can do to
better equip US Warfighters is massively valuable.

Another aspect that has been lost in this debate is that the DoD and
DARPA both do a huge amount of non-military work. Most of you will
know the US Department of Defense is the largest employer in the
world. However, you may not know the the majority of opportunities are
for civilian roles. For example, thousands of men and women are
employed by the DARAPA Information Awareness Office, applying
surveillance and information technology to track and monitor
terrorists and other asymmetric threats to national security:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_information_awareness There are
lots of great employment opportunities for code monkeys in the DARAPA
Information Awareness Office and I'd recommend any of you to get
involved.

I hope everyone can see that MAKE's DARPA MENTOR proposal will help
make the US, and the world, a safer place to live.
Jack Bailey, US Navy LCDR (ret)

[Chris Shannon]

yeah whatever, fuck DoDs

chris shannon

ODA722, 7th SFGA. US Army

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[Garrett deRosset]

Slow down there. This is an opportunity.

[Akiba]

I side with Mitch on this issue. I think DARPA can do a lot of good with the
MENTOR program, but I want no part of it. I'd just like to draw a clear line
between me and any type of military research. Since I do wireless and
communications, it is possible that my designs may be used for malicious
purposes, but I won't knowingly or purposely design anything that would hurt
someone else. I definitely won't go near any type of project whose purpose
is to be a weapon. I won't try to force my principles on anyone else,
however I won't compromise on this either.

Apologies since this is your first post, but you should understand this from
our point of view. Mitch's withdrawal was not due to hyperbole,
disinformation, or anything else. It's simply his principles and I respect
them.

And one last thing. This line is really creepy:

"I'm sure you'll all agree that it's reassuring to know the
> current generation of young Makers will be working together
> with DARPA and the DoD to create next-generation clothing,
> tools and weapons for tomorrow's Warfighters."

I sincerely hope that the skills Make instills on children and youth will
not be put to use making weapons.

Akiba
FreakLabs Open Source Wireless
Web: http://www.freaklabs.org
Shop:http://www.freaklabsstore.com
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freaklabs

[Mikele]

friday the 13th

[Taylan Ayken]

Well...

As a non-American in this group, proud Turkish citizen, ex-intern of a defense company in Turkey, master student/hacker/tinkerer/maker/open source hardware designer based in Tokyo I have a couple of things to say, and it will be in the form of a furious rant:

"For example, the US currently requires 15% of the world's energy, and we will need more as the living standard of all Americans continues to rise. To meet this rising demand, we must ensure our energy security by safeguarding US oil interests in the Middle East, and our mineral interests in Africa. MAKE's mentor proposal will help DARPA and the DoD meet this challenge, enabling them to rapidly prototype, test and deploy transport and weapons systems for use in extremely hostile environments."

This gives nobody the excuse to bomb the shit out of a country at the other side of the World. You might require more energy, you might require more minerals but there are other ways to get them besides dropping bombs, creating shitty stories about WMDs as an excuse to invade & destabilize a region (remember, Turkey is real close to Iraq) and all other type of crimes against humanity happening over there.

"The US is the world's police force and our brave Warfighters in the Army, Navy and Air Force put themselves in harm's way to defend democracy and the free market at a time when they face threats from all sides. Clearly anything that MAKE can do to better equip US Warfighters is massively valuable."

Well, basically FUCK THIS!!! Who gave the right to US to police the world?! Who made US the "defender of freedom and democracy and all good things"?! Yeah, everybody in the world is trying to invade and harm a country that is miles & miles away from them, that's why US is facing threats from all sides. Except the countries that have a puppet government that does everything their big brother says (like mine). Yeah, everyone in the world want to invade US, kill all males, rape all females and make children their slaves. It is totally dangerous out there, you don't want to get out without a dozen Blackwater bodyguards.

"Another aspect that has been lost in this debate is that the DoD and DARPA both do a huge amount of non-military work. Most of you will know the US Department of Defense is the largest employer in the world. However, you may not know the the majority of opportunities are for civilian roles. For example, thousands of men and women are employed by the DARAPA Information Awareness Office, applying surveillance and information technology to track and monitor terrorists and other asymmetric threats to national security: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_information_awareness There are lots of great employment opportunities for code monkeys in the DARAPA Information Awareness Office and I'd recommend any of you to get involved."

That lost me. If you want to talk about civilian opportunities and what DARPA gave to us talk about the Internet, or talk about DARPA Grand Challenge (which affected my research topic during my undergrad years) or talk about anything else but asymmetric threats and spying on others. Yep, I know that grand challenge was made to replace supply convoys with autonomous trucks in order to save lives in an ambush but civilian applications like self-driving cars which optimize your route and let you read your newspaper during morning commute are more important IMO. And code monkeys? That is an insult as far as it goes if you are not a fellow programmer: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/C/code-monkey.html

Don't get me wrong, I worked with military industry during my internship, got a real sweet job offer (and refused it as I had other plans, if I did not I would have accepted it), a few people in my family are in defense industry as designers/engineers/managers, there is nothing wrong with that. When I was in high school, I was in an American Boarding School (Uskudar American Academy) and I don't hate US citizens or USA as some people might think as some maps put Turkey in the Middle East. What I hate is the people who have this mentality, this strange/twisted view where they have the right to go to another country and kill people there so that people can continue living the American Dream and having the biggest guns gives them these rights. Yeah, and having a giant dick gives people to ass-rape others! C'mon, this is an international group, we don't have US citizens only, we have Japanese, Italian, Dutch, Turkish... Nobody wants to hear a bunch of propaganda about USA-the-World-Police! I support Mitch for his decision, if he thinks this is the best for him and if he wants to withdraw himself from Make then I have nothing to do but respect his decision & principles.

I was really freaked out by the same line as Akiba did. And agree with him totally on this:

"I sincerely hope that the skills Make instills on children and youth will not be put to use making weapons."

And I want to add that hopefully these skills will be used with another Apollo program, another Space Shuttle program. Not for killing people in order to protect the American Dream but in order to help science and humanity.

Sorry for the rant, possible inappropriate words and the whole word salad but I snapped because of this message.

---

From: Jack Bailey <tokyo...@gmail.com>
To: TokyoHackerSpace <tokyohac...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 11:29 PM

Subject: [THS:16429] MAKE proposal for the DARPA MENTOR program

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[fakufaku]

Was this post just an elaborate troll ?

And I want to add that hopefully these skills will be used with another Apollo program, another Space Shuttle program. Not for killing people in order to protect the American Dream but in order to help science and humanity.

As you might know, US is now trying to shut down the North Korean equivalent of the US space program by pretending it's just a cover for intercontinental ballistic missile testing. Although, everyone knows that the race for space in the 60's was just a scientific, peaceful program. I'm a little lost by modern geopolitic.

[fakufaku]

On Saturday, April 14, 2012 2:11:57 AM UTC+9, fakufaku wrote:

Was this post just an elaborate troll ?

And just to be clear, I meant the troll is the first post. Not Taylan's. 

[Jud Taylor]

Smells Trolly to me, too.

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[lauren shannon]

Wow I read this and got chills. I know you mean well. But the things you listed as the pluses here are all things that I think the world needs LESS of not More of. If we up the anty everyone else does too. This is how we get into things like "the arms race" and nuclear stockpiles that need to be unwound years later when everyone wakes up from a fever dream and says OMG what the heck do we do now?

I think the DOD does good stuff, and bad stuff but they should use their money at the college level not influencing young kids- because trust me this money will come with real pressure- and very sophisticated messaging. Remember attitudes about war and recruitment are very LOW in the usa and the military is looking at ways to change their image with young people who would very much like to have a bit more peace in the world.

I know I might seem to rose-colored glasses on this- and I am sure they will do what they do- but we don't really need to be a part of it. Money is just money and there are better ways for the MAKE community to fund itself.

Lauren

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[Akiba]

Yeah, I agree with Lauren. Education reform is needed in the US (as well as Japan) but it should be handled by the government agency handling education. If DARPA comes in, even if the intentions are purely to improve the education of youth, there's always the idea that there's a military machine behind that money.

 

As for the possibility that this is an elaborate troll: yes, but I'll be taking it at face value because it brings up several good points. The issue between military research and hackers has divided the hacker/maker/DIY community. I can respect other people's opinions and choices and my personal choice is to stay away from military research funding.

 

Akiba

FreakLabs Open Source Wireless

Web: http://www.freaklabs.org

Shop:http://www.freaklabsstore.com

Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freaklabs

 

 

---

From: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tokyohac...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of lauren shannon
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 7:42 AM
To: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [THS:16441] MAKE proposal for the DARPA MENTOR program

[Jud Taylor]

After reading Akiba's recent post, I re-read the root post, and I now
more suspect that it is astroturfing rather than trolling. I mean
that it seems to raise an issue new to this mailing list (the issue of
DARPAMAKE) then jump more than one cycle of argument, seemingly
assuming that THS membership in aggregate has a particular opinion on
the controversy, then making a rather disjointed series of
counterpoints.

I fully respect Mitch's and Akiba's decisions as to how to direct
their efforts and passions. I have not read Mitch's, but Akiba states
his very clearly. It's a bright line that limits no one else's
legitimate liberties.

I concur that the educational system of the United States is failing
according to its publicly stated goals. I strongly disagree that
improving education in the United States should be entrusted to any
government agency. More, I would prefer that NO government agency be
involved.

Many who have met me know that I have a few other opinions, some of
which I feel strongly about.

Taking the root post seriously, I'll decline to elucidate most of
those here, because I don't fully trust the motives of each of the "
thousands of men and women...employed by the DARAPA [sic] Information

Awareness Office, applying surveillance and information

technology...", or their inevitably political bosses.

[Akiba]

It's a shame you feel that way, Jud. I heard the DoD is handing out grants
for mansistor research.

BTW, have you seen my cat? Do you want to?

Akiba
FreakLabs Open Source Wireless
Web: http://www.freaklabs.org
Shop:http://www.freaklabsstore.com
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freaklabs

[Jud Taylor]

DAMMIT AKIBA! NOW THEY KNOW!

[Jud Taylor]

Oh, and also,

"brave Warfighters in the Army, Navy and Air Force"

somehow something seems missing...

Not to be SENSitive..

[Akiba]

You're right. I think they forgot to include NASA. You should let them know
:)

[Chris Shannon]

youre right, what about the brave wavefighters in the coast guard.

[Jud Taylor]

Or the postal service. Or DMV.

[Chris Shannon]

Karamoon false flag op

On Friday, April 13, 2012, Jack Bailey wrote:

[Jud Taylor]

Great.

Come for the brains.

Stay for the laughs.

Well done.

[Akiba]

Very nice. Perhaps I should alter my stance on weapons design for exceptions
on devices that attack karamoon.

Akiba
FreakLabs Open Source Wireless
Web: http://www.freaklabs.org
Shop:http://www.freaklabsstore.com
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freaklabs

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:tokyohac...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jud Taylor
> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 11:05 AM
> To: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com

[Chris Shannon]

it was a useful discussion i thought, especially since we never discussed Mitch's public stmts on Make.

c

[Jud Taylor]

I'll be blunt for once.

I take joy in confronting intelligent people about things I or they
are serious about.

I also like a good laugh.

I despise assholes.

[Chris Shannon]

so.. you're pretty much like the rest of us.

c

[Akiba]

Agreed. I despise assholes that still have a bit of poop around their
periphery. Its like my dog so I constantly have to wipe her.
Wait, what were we talking about again?

[Jack Bailey]

I deeply resent the accusation that my heartfelt email was some kind
of false flag op perpetrated by the dastardly Laramoon (or whatever
she calls herself nowadays)

Jack Bailey, US Navy LCDR (ret)

Seriously though, everyone has been raising some very good points. I'm
not trying to change anyone's opinion on anything, I just know (from
experience) that if these sorts of topics are not discussed they tend
to have very negative consequences in the future. Something to bear in
mind if THS is going to be entering into partnerships with other
spaces/groups etc. Always look VERY FUCKING CAREFULLY to see where the
money is coming from and where the motives lie. (pun intended)

Karamoon
ps. Well done to Chris Shannon!

[lauren shannon]

As this alludes to our new potential- space be clear- we are not accepting money from anyone. We are paying for a space just like now. And for the record no one ever looked into our current landlords political ties, affiliations or jobs.

There is also a good point to be made that we can have a positive impact offering an alternative opinion to those we disagree with. If we silo ourselves to only people who agree with us the world will become more divided not less.

xo
Lauren

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[Torsten Wagner]

Hehehe...
I knew why I did not responds immediately.
This was to fishy.

As for the serious discussion part.
Maybe somewhere, a hackerspace should have a manifesto (and part of it
should be send as email-confirmation for this list) which pretty much
say that all nations and people are welcome independent of any current
political issues.
That includes that you might piss off people in this group trying to
put any sensitive topic (like religion, politics or AKB48) onto the
table.
Not that we shouldn't discuss them but we should be aware that members
of such a divers group can have quite different meanings about it.
Thus, think twice before you write things like "All Turkish hackers
are Kebab eating, Turkish coffee drinking fools"... just as an example

Totti

[Akiba]

I agree with Torsten. We shouldn't allow Turkish people in the space.

As for the new space, Lauren is correct. Regardless what the affiliation is,
we're renters and not accepting charity. I'd prefer not to perform extensive
background checks on landlords since that's a privacy issue. If something is
amiss and we're suddenly asked to assist in "special projects", then I'm
pretty sure we're smart enough to figure out that something is amiss.
Otherwise, we can simply ask Jack Bailey.

[Mikele]

a THS manifesto seems a good idea.

Limit the use of the space only for peaceful, entertaining, educational, socially useful purpose...

if members wants to build a mind control ray gun to turn kids into braindead assassins, it should at least be done somewhere else, like the secret dungeon.

[Torsten Wagner]

But we would loose
Akiba, Taylan and for sure MRE ;)

Totti

[Mikele]

we just need to make sure the dungeon is really secret.

:)
I said that, because I went to bed thinking I would bring up this issue on Tuesday meeting and if there was even a chance for the THS to be serving any kind of military op. I would have asked for my membership money back... and torch the place.

[Jud Taylor]

No.

Fuck You Kamaroon.

I am an officer of the U.S. Military, in the Naval Service, and I take
comments by or about them seriously.

[Chris Shannon]

settle down francis

[Taylan Ayken]

Well, Karamoon, that was nice, well played sir, well played. I literally snapped to the idea that we have such an asshole in THS. :)

As for special projects: I don't think that we will be asked to do special projects, at least for the Japanese. If we are asked and we do not deny, I will just walk away.

---

From: Torsten Wagner <torsten...@gmail.com>
To: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: [THS:16467] MAKE proposal for the DARPA MENTOR program

>> > >> tokyohackerspace+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

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[Jud Taylor]

No.

Here is my key.

[Akiba]

And here is my key:

The key to a long healthy life is to eat well, exercise, and try to
masturbate less. It uses up your life essence.

[Mikele]

all worthless if you don't include red wine in the equation.

[Akiba]

Yes, well red wine was implied. It's what I use to get in that "romantic" mood with myself.

 

Akiba

FreakLabs Open Source Wireless

Web: http://www.freaklabs.org

Shop:http://www.freaklabsstore.com

Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freaklabs

 

 

---

From: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tokyohac...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mikele
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 4:05 PM
To: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [THS:16474] MAKE proposal for the DARPA MENTOR program

[Mikele]

old school candles or sweat controlled LEDs ?

[Akiba]

No no no. I make aromatically infused DIY soy candles.

Actually, I do...seriously. We should put together a workshop on DIY soy candles using mason jars. Perfect for outdoor dining in the summer...

 

 

Akiba

FreakLabs Open Source Wireless

Web: http://www.freaklabs.org

Shop:http://www.freaklabsstore.com

Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freaklabs

 

 

From: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tokyohac...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mikele

Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 4:17 PM
To: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [THS:16476] MAKE proposal for the DARPA MENTOR program

[Mikele]

...mmmm, now, that sounds dangerous...
if I'll come for the workshop I'll make sure to stay away from the wine 

[lauren shannon]

AND your cactus

On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 4:12 PM, Akiba <ch...@freaklabs.org> wrote:

--

[Akiba]

No, the cactus is the cherry on my akiba sundae. The wine is the santorum. Wait...am I using that word properly?

 

Akiba

FreakLabs Open Source Wireless

Web: http://www.freaklabs.org

Shop:http://www.freaklabsstore.com

Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freaklabs

 

 

---

From: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tokyohac...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of lauren shannon
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 4:39 PM
To: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [THS:16479] MAKE proposal for the DARPA MENTOR program

[lauren shannon]

ok. ewwww

[Taylan Ayken]

No, the santorum is the whipped cream on top of the sundae

---

From: Akiba <ch...@freaklabs.org>
To: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 4:44 PM
Subject: RE: [THS:16480] MAKE proposal for the DARPA MENTOR program

[Akiba]

Thank you. I got it. With the whipped cream and the cherry, all I need are nuts. Does anyone have nuts? I need some really big nuts...

 

Akiba

FreakLabs Open Source Wireless

Web: http://www.freaklabs.org

Shop:http://www.freaklabsstore.com

Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freaklabs

 

 

---

From: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tokyohac...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Taylan Ayken
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 4:51 PM
To: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [THS:16482] MAKE proposal for the DARPA MENTOR program

[Torsten Wagner]

I knew he was cheating on his cactus.  Poor cactus hope it finds someone who really loves it.

[Mikele]

I can help with that, come to the next party, I will hook you up with some really big nuts

[Chris Shannon]

oh, there are going to be some nuts at the next meeting alright.

c

[Akiba]

Hmmm...if Jessica Alba and Karamoon had a baby....

 

 

Akiba

FreakLabs Open Source Wireless

Web: http://www.freaklabs.org

Shop:http://www.freaklabsstore.com

Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freaklabs

 

 

---

From: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tokyohac...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Shannon
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 5:25 PM
To: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [THS:16487] MAKE proposal for the DARPA MENTOR program

--

[Sean]

This involves breaking the Seventh Seal of the Apocalypse.

Sent from an undisclosed location

[Chris Shannon]

Jud,
I dont understand why you turned in your key. Did you leave THS?

if so, I dont understand why, surely it wasnt because nobody mentioned the USMC.

Chris

[Jud Taylor]

Lauren, Chris, MRE, others,

I've been quite upset at others and myself for the last few days.

I'll speak briefly this evening.

Best,

Jud

[Mikele]

upset is the new black.
:)

[Lauren Shannon]

Upset doesn't equal quitting 

Sent from my iPhone

[Chris Shannon]

"I'll speak briefly this evening."

promise?  ;)

c

[Akiba]

Wait, hold on a sec. What would we do without your...ummm...without
your...uhhhh. Hmmm, this is awkward.
I'll just wait for your speech.

[Taylan Ayken]

Card-duino is the item you are looking for

---

From: Akiba <ch...@freaklabs.org>
To: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 3:57 PM
Subject: RE: [THS:16528] MAKE proposal for the DARPA MENTOR program

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[Chris Shannon]

I thought it was Mansistor!

c

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tokyohackerspa...@googlegroups.com.

[MRE]

Seriously, hackerspaces te world over learn of the family of
components you created.

On Apr 17, 4:40 pm, Chris Shannon <cshan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I thought it was Mansistor!
>
> c
>

> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 4:39 PM, Taylan Ayken <taylan_ay...@yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> > Card-duino is the item you are looking for
>

> >   ------------------------------
> > *From:* Akiba <ch...@freaklabs.org>
> > *To:* tokyohac...@googlegroups.com
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 17, 2012 3:57 PM
> > *Subject:* RE: [THS:16528] MAKE proposal for the DARPA MENTOR program

> > > >> >> <torsten.wag...@gmail.com>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Akiba]

Personally, I thought the mansistor was sexist. There's no mention of
womansistors, hermaphrosistors, or transgensistors. I was appalled. 21st
century, people!

[Jud Taylor]

Funnystory...

I read it on MAKE, this site that caters to the hacker community.

http://tinyurl.com/6p9m2o2

So, the story...

Some no-name compaines try to sell their wares.

Not many takers.

No-name company (actually, companies) decides to appropriate the name
and brand Arduiino, a brand trusted by many. The goal of the no-name
company is to be taken more seriously.

This works for short periods, but soon the people getting duped catch on.

This pisses those people off, even to the point in some cases of not
trusting Arduino, and, apocryphally, to quit their pursuit of
electronics as a hobby.

Open source hardware afficianados take enough offense at the duplicity
to state unequivically "Cloning ain’t cool".

PERSONally, I'm not sure why they got all bent out of shape.

Anyway, not sure why I thought of it...

A,AA,FYK

[Mikele]

cloners and copycatters are #@%@#$%#@
-snip- removed my rant, in the industry I work in, jewelry, it is an everyday frustration.