As far as I can tell; a NEW and MAJOR application for TW
twgrp
TW as a tool for authoring books!
No, I cannot find any existing implementation for this, surprisingly.
A few attemps have been made at writing books with TW and some ideas
to use TW as a hypertext story tool. That's not what I'm talking
about. I'm talking about TW as a tool to create normal, longer, to-be-
printed books, articles, academic papers, magazines etc. I.e
effectively creating, displaying and sequencing(!) tiddlers so that
they can build up a *linear* whole.
Let us make an attempt at identifying existing plugins and otherwise
specify the needs to use TW as an effective authoring tool.
I think a good solution to this really could open a new MAJOR
APPLICATION for TW!
The concept is generic and easily understood by anyone considering
using TW.
In my experience almost everyone has ideas about writing a book in him/
her. (Don't you?)
I'd even guess that this is of wider use than ANY of the applications/
examples explicitly mentioned to promote TW at http://www.tiddlywiki.com/#Examples
Ironically, TWs fractionated and non-linear nature that makes it
perfect for information collection and flexible "information
association" is almost the opposite of a printed books rigid,
structured and linear nature. The authoring process itself, regardless
of TW, is typically a matter of transforming creative and loose ideas
into refined information and put into one exact location. This is true
both for fictional and non-fictional writing, as well as for books,
articles, papers or a Ph.D thesis. Note I'm talking about authoring,
not formatting, let alone publishing etc. Any result would eventually
have to be exported into some other tool like a word processor.
I will post my thoughts on the needs and relevant plugins but figured
it would be good to hear your general thoughts on the matter first.
Solutions, problems, whys and whynots and particularly needs and
specifications for the concept to be useful.
:-)
PMario
Have a look at TiddlyDocs
http://hoster.peermore.com/recipes/tiddlydocs-demo/tiddlers.wiki
search TiddlyWeb group for more
regards Mario
On Mar 18, 11:35 pm, twgrp <matiasg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Touched upon many times, but simply not satisfactorily manifested yet:
> TW as a tool for authoring books!
>
> No, I cannot find any existing implementation for this, surprisingly.
> A few attemps have been made at writing books with TW and some ideas
> to use TW as a hypertext story tool. That's not what I'm talking
> about. I'm talking about TW as a tool to create normal, longer, to-be-
> printed books, articles, academic papers, magazines etc. I.e
> effectively creating, displaying and sequencing(!) tiddlers so that
> they can build up a *linear* whole.
>
> Let us make an attempt at identifying existing plugins and otherwise
> specify the needs to use TW as an effective authoring tool.
>
> I think a good solution to this really could open a new MAJOR
> APPLICATION for TW!
> The concept is generic and easily understood by anyone considering
> using TW.
> In my experience almost everyone has ideas about writing a book in him/
> her. (Don't you?)
> I'd even guess that this is of wider use than ANY of the applications/
> examples explicitly mentioned to promote TW athttp://www.tiddlywiki.com/#Examples
Vincent
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Vincent
twgrp
> Have a look at TiddlyDocshttp://hoster.peermore.com/recipes/tiddlydocs-demo/tiddlers.wiki
Thanks! That is interesting and very beautiful! But it seems
especially made for TiddlyWeb... which, as far as I know, is a
different beast than good ol' vanilla TW that I understand. Not to
mentino newcomers to TW. I also found some indications that TiddlyDocs
even is a beast in itself within TiddlyWeb.
The interface seems great though; Particularly that menu seems to deal
with a core necessity for effective authoring, i.e that of being able
to relocate tiddlers (or, actually, their names in the menu). Drag'n
drop, and even with subtiddlers following - wonderful!!! (Some type of
slider or accordion feature is probably necessary when you have a lot
of subtiddlers though.) I can't go backstage to peek, I'm guessing
that menu is not available as a plugin for vanilla TW, correct?
Again, thank you!
twgrp
> http://twspot.tiddlyspot.com/
>
> http://tiddlytagmindmap.tiddlyspot.com/
I appreciate all input, so thanks.
But Oy! ;-)
That seems as far from linear as you can get, lol! I'm sure it's great
for brainstorming though!
My initial post may have been a bit cryptic, but the main issue is to
get from TW's naturally non-linear structure, i.e tiddlers cross-
referencing each-others and sometimes existing without any reference
at all, etc, into a linear sequence, i.e a form of "start to finish"
och "from cover to cover". Each tiddlers content is supposed to
eventually end up in a specific location on a page, squeezed in
between two other tiddlers. That TiddlyDocs menu captures this, and I
would say that this is the most important aspect of the whole issue.
I'll post some thoughts but it's too late here for the time being.
Thank you :-)
Anthony Muscio
I would suggest creating tiddlers and tagging them according to various criteria - some will form character definitions some just story-lettes. Tagging allows you to organise in anyway you want.
Now for the linear structure - base it on a heirachy
You could then build a set of chapter and sub-chapter tags with a field in each to set the order of the chapters.
You could then assign a story-lette or paragraph tiddler to a chapter with a field in each to set the order of the story-lettes within chapters.
Maintain a tag to indicate "include in book" for any item you want included.
Always set your order field to something in the hundereds eg; 0000100 then 0000200 so you will allways be able to insert between them eg; 0000150 - you could have multiple order fields and only string them together in the final sort.
Your could then use a sophisticated For Each Tiddler to list links to tiddlers as the contents in book order, and a seperate one to Display the content in a single tiddler for Publishing.
Tools to select a chapter, promote or demote within your heirachy or change its order would make it a dream to use.
TonyM
If you have not found an easy way to do it with TiddlyWiki, you have missed something.
www.tiddlywiki.com
--
Alex Hough
TiddlyWikiRoman, von Hartmut Abendschein [1] seems to be German TW novel
ALex
[1] http://bc.etkbooks.com/opac/
http://www.multiurl.com/g/64
Eric Weir
On Mar 19, 2010, at 6:05 AM, Alex Hough wrote:
> TiddlyWikiRoman, von Hartmut Abendschein [1] seems to be German TW novel
May be a counter example to your interest in linear writing. Seems to be a non-linear novel.
http://davidvanwert.com/die-vampire-die/
I would point out one thing, though. Both examples are published works. I wonder whether TW was used to write them, though.
A question: For getting text, possibly text created and organized in a TiddlyWiki, into linear form, what's wrong with an ordinary wordprocessor, e.g., Word, OpenOfficeWrite, or Apple's Pages?
I've been working on a long article for some time now. Initially, notes on my reading and thinking about the issue were collected, revised, added to, organized, and reorganized in a TW. In my experience, this kind of thinking is a big part of "authoring," and it is i\distinctly non-linear, and TW is ideally suited for it. Especially a TW using taggly tagging.
Once I'd gotten to the point where I'd nailed now my exposition of and position on the issue, I wrote a brief overview sketch of the article. Then I used my TW notes as a basis for and guide to piecing together a linear exposition of the argument. I did that in a wordprocessor. I'm not sure I could have done it in a TW. Especially, as in my case, footnoting and bibliography creation are part of the task.
This fits well with the distinction between "composing" and "editing" that has become common in teaching writing. And to sum up my experience: TW for composing, wordprocessors for editing.
My two cents,
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA USA
eew...@bellsouth.net
PMario
I like the idea of a linear story line. Thats why I made
SelectStoryMacro[1], and StoryGlueMacro[2] which uses
NavigationMacro[3]. Have a look at my presentation manager [4]. (which
needs some update)
The blue sqares in the main menu are from SelectStoryMacro. A Story is
a set of tiddlers, that are stored as a bracketed list, which can be
produced using some TiddlyTools Tools.
If you open a tiddler, which is not part of the actual story, the
black menue in the tiddler footer changes, and indicates a new
storyline, which the actual tiddler is part of.
Breadcrumbs can be used, to find your way back :)
regards Mario
[1] http://a-pm.tiddlyspot.com/#SelectStoryMacro
[2] http://a-pm.tiddlyspot.com/#StoryGlueMacro
[3] http://a-pm.tiddlyspot.com/#NavigationMacro
[4] http://a-pm.tiddlyspot.com
Alex Hough
For whatever its worth, I think that the barriers to writing non-linear works of literature in TW are not comprised of plugins or another technical aspect. TW is a hypertext tool, and there is a body of work in this field. It seams that serious writers are not drawn to TiddlyWiki so much as people practicing other disciplines.
Alex
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twgrp
> Always set your order field to something in the hundereds eg; 0000100 then
> 0000200 so you will allways be able to insert between them eg; 0000150 - you
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds like a lot of manual labor
particularly when wanting to relocate the position of a tiddler
(especially if it has subtiddlers). Do consider that each tiddler has
to be dealt wiht, even ones containing a a mere sentence or even a
single word. For this reason I think manual specification of position
is problematic, even if it sounds decent at a first glance.
Or maybe your added suggestion;
> Tools to select a chapter, promote or demote within your heirachy or change
> its order would make it a dream to use.
...deals with this? I.e some kind of tool taking over and automating
the numbering when tiddlers are relocated?
Eric Shulman
> SelectStoryMacro[1], and StoryGlueMacro[2] which uses
> NavigationMacro[3]. Have a look at my presentation manager [4]. (which
> needs some update)
http://www.TiddlyTools.com/#StorySaverPlugin
<<saveStory storyname label tooltip tag tag tag...>>
<<openStory list tagValue>>
<<openStory popup label tooltip tagValue>>
<<openStory storyname label tooltip fold>>
<<saveStory>> creates a space-separated list of the current tiddler
display, and saves it into a tiddler (tagged with 'story')
<<openStory>> displays either a drop-down or popup list of
available stories, or a simple command link for a specific story.
Selecting a story displays those tiddlers, in the order specified in
the story tiddler. Options include ability to close all open tiddlers
first, as well as 'fold' tiddlers (using CollapseTiddlersPlugin) when
displaying a story (so that you can see all the titles and then just
unfold and read the desired tiddlers.)
The plugin will optionally, automatically save the current story
(in a cookie) when exiting the document, so that the next session can
resume where you left off (i.e., by displaying the same tiddlers in
the same order when you re-open the document).
http://www.TiddlyTools.com/#StoryViewerPlugin
<<storyViewer storyname action buttonoption>> enables you to
quickly display and navigate between the tiddlers in a saved story,
one at a time, using a droplist containing tiddler titles or auto-
generated "first/previous/next/last" command links, embedded in
tiddler content. If the 'storyname' parameter is omitted, the story
associated with a given tiddler will be automatically located by
search all 'story' tiddlers for a matching title.
enjoy,
-e
Eric Shulman
TiddlyTools / ELS Design Studios
twgrp
> A question: For getting text, possibly text created and organized in a TiddlyWiki, into linear form, what's wrong with an ordinary wordprocessor, e.g., Word, OpenOfficeWrite, or Apple's Pages?
> TW for composing, wordprocessors for editing.
Editing is definitely not for TW, but TW has potential to automate
parts of the composing or at least semi automate it. Also, iif
linearized as late as in the wordprocessor, you'd be forced to
continually transfer things to get an overview of where you are in the
composing process. Also, you'll be missing out on a very powerful
"bottom-up approach" to parallel writing that I will soon describe
here. Basically this is "incidentally" generating books by letting
tiddlers group over time. I'll get back to this in a post soon.
:-)
Mark S.
far.
It seems like a serious barrier to serious publishing is getting the
data -- and formatting -- out. Need to be able to export in something
like RTF, at a minimum, if you want to create a document that a
publisher would be willing to consider. You're certainly not going to
want to go back and re-apply formatting.
Mark
On Mar 19, 11:20 am, Alex Hough <r.a.ho...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> For whatever its worth, I think that the barriers to writing non-linear
> works of literature in TW are not comprised of plugins or another technical
> aspect. TW is a hypertext tool, and there is a body of work in this field.
> It seams that serious writers are not drawn to TiddlyWiki so much as people
> practicing other disciplines.
>
> Alex
>
> > tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com<tiddlywiki%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
twgrp
> [4] http://a-pm.tiddlyspot.com
Ok, let's see if I get this right;
"Topics" are the actual pieces of a story. A story tiddler is defined
as a tiddler that lists all the individual Topics. Inside each such
topic you see a mini navigation display, (the Lewcid NavigationMacro
feature) with a dot representing all the topics in that story plus a
"previous" and "next" link to the adjacent topics.
And the main menu achieves a similiar result as having tabs to let you
flip among the defined stories.
Interesting! I particularly like the latter concept of a main menu
that could be your regular TW menu, but with a tab let you view an
overview for whichever books you have defined. And I like the
automatic generation of contents in the MainMenu. It seems each topic,
has to be manually listed in the story tiddler though. I'm guessing
the Lewcid macro requires it in this format.
It seems the *order* for topics is auto sorted by title of the topic
tiddler which sets some rigid specifications to what you must name
each newly created topic tiddler. And what happens when you want to
shuffle around a few topic tiddlers...?
Thanks.
Vincent
Eric Weir
On Mar 19, 2010, at 4:15 PM, twgrp wrote:
> ...if linearized as late as in the wordprocessor, you'd be forced to
> continually transfer things to get an overview of where you are in the
> composing process.
Perhaps I have not made as much use of TW in composing as I could have. For me it has primarily been a way to move from relatively random note taking to a relatively clearly thought out and organized understanding of the issues and ideas I'm writing about. I have not attempted to use it to take me through to a nearly final, let alone final, exposition.
When I get to the editing stage, I am relying heavily on my organized notes to keep me on-track, but I am really doing my first exposition for an outside audience, i.e., composing the first draft for the intended audience. And I'm doing it in a wordprocessor. Perhaps I could get closer to this nearly final stage remaining in TW than I have tried to do so far. I'll give it a try.
As it is now, when I'm ready to write, I turn to the wordprocessor.
> Also, you'll be missing out on a very powerful
> "bottom-up approach" to parallel writing that I will soon describe
> here. Basically this is "incidentally" generating books by letting
> tiddlers group over time.
I'm intrigued. I'll be interested in hearing more. Not sure what you mean by "parallel writing," though.
The value of TW for me is realized in the manual work I do with it -- tagging, structuring tagging, revising tagging. A way I've thought of it to myself is as starting in a real, almost random, free writing way, and letting the structure emerge in the process of that. But there is a distinctly manual, though definitely not mechanical, dimension to it.
Regards,
Eric Weir
On Mar 19, 2010, at 4:21 PM, Mark S. wrote:
> It seems like a serious barrier to serious publishing is getting the
> data -- and formatting -- out. Need to be able to export in something
> like RTF, at a minimum, if you want to create a document that a
> publisher would be willing to consider. You're certainly not going to
> want to go back and re-apply formatting.
That's exactly what I do. And that definitely does not mean that TW has not been useful to me. To the contrary, I can do things with it -- things ultimately related to producing linear text -- I could never do with a wordprocessor.
PMario
On Mar 19, 11:39 pm, twgrp <matiasg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 19, 4:11 pm, PMario <pmari...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > [4]http://a-pm.tiddlyspot.com
>
> Ok, let's see if I get this right;
> "Topics" are the actual pieces of a story. A story tiddler is defined
> as a tiddler that lists all the individual Topics. Inside each such
> topic you see a mini navigation display, (the Lewcid NavigationMacro
> feature) with a dot representing all the topics in that story plus a
> "previous" and "next" link to the adjacent topics.
> And the main menu achieves a similiar result as having tabs to let you
> flip among the defined stories.
I think you got it right :)
And if you open a topic, which is not part of the actual story, the
navigation in the footer is changed, from black to blue. The
StoryGlueMacro searches all known stories, if the actual topic is part
of it. And displays a (blue) set of stories, which contain the actual
Topic. You can switch the story if you want. As I wrote, if
breadcrumbs is installed, it is also possible to find the way back.
> Interesting! I particularly like the latter concept of a main menu
> that could be your regular TW menu, but with a tab let you view an
> overview for whichever books you have defined. ...
This is an interesting idea. I have to think about it.
> ... And I like the
> automatic generation of contents in the MainMenu. It seems each topic,
> has to be manually listed in the story tiddler though. I'm guessing
> the Lewcid macro requires it in this format.
You are right. The navigation macro needs it that way, if you want a
manually generated order. There is a possibility to "feed" the
navigationMacro with a tagged list, which is orderd by name :(
> It seems the *order* for topics is auto sorted by title of the topic
The main menue is automatic generated and sorted by name.
The stories are manually sorted.
> tiddler which sets some rigid specifications to what you must name
> each newly created topic tiddler. ...
I didn't solve the "sorting by name problem" :( .. yet
It was the reason for me to extend the core list macro with <<list
numberedText ..>>[3]. It is not the right solution for me, because I
don't want to name tiddlers that way, but it thought it may be usefull
for others.
> ... And what happens when you want to
> shuffle around a few topic tiddlers...?
If you want to shuffle them there is an other plugin -> jQSorter [1]
which is a little bit experimental, since it was the first time I saw
jQuery.
Have a look at TaggedStoryDp20 [2] which I like very much. It is fun,
if you have ab big screen (resulution) and if you hide the menues.
I did play with TiddlyDocs left menue, but I didn't figure out how to
extract it. It is too close tied to the whole project. What I found
out is, that it uses a jQuery plugin named NestedSortable [4], which
seems, is not maintained anymore. And this was a no-go for me.
have fun!
Mario
PS: I have seen a writers outline program (for windows) which
generates a TiddlyWiky as an output. But I didn't save the link.
[1] http://a-pm-experimental.tiddlyspot.com/
[2] http://a-pm-experimental.tiddlyspot.com/#TaggedStoryDp20
[3] http://apm-plugins.tiddlyspot.com/#[[Numbered%20vs%20xCase]]
[4] http://code.google.com/p/nestedsortables/
iain
fortnight and as an ex editor of a professional journal and as a TW
user I am going to add my 10c worth.
Firstly no editor would ever except a TW as manuscript. Most editors
want everything in simple plain text so that they can format the text
themselves rather than have to deal with odd bits of formatting code
causing problems in the production phase (this used to occur allot
with programs such as Ventura and with people who use Tabs to align
text).
Secondly, I am not sure anything that I read on line is in actual fact
a book. To me a book had pages, is portable and can be read in places
such where there is no electric power.
Thirdly, where I find TW useful, in fact almost indispensable, is in
doing the research and the organising my thinking (both linear and non-
linear). The hyper-linking and tagging are great. I wish TW was a
little less clunky with images such as photos, maps and plans. It
would be good to be able to add video as well.
I am mainly using Morris Gray's modification of No Brainer notes in
its c2008 incarnation with some TWeaks and a more cheery colour
scheme.
Iain
Mike
context
http://www.scribd.com/doc/5271682/Organize-Your-Novel-with-a-Wiki
http://www.ljcohen.net/resources-wiki.html
http://www.ljcohen.net/Tiddlywikiwrite-2-5-3.html
I think the power of TW is "currently" in organization more than
publishing. . . just my thoughts
Some great ideas here, found this
http://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener.html
http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/01/27/the-right-tool-for-writing/
Title screen says a lot, outline, edit, storyboard, write (export)
I am not suggesting 3rd party software - merely a reference of what
you might be looking for in a modified TW
Thoughts?
Mike
twgrp
authoring-tools is wider than I considered, dealing with everything
from brain storming, entering content, editing, filtering, assembling,
ordering and re-ordering, content display, overview-issues (ToC,
indexes etc) to features for exporting, printing and so on. Because of
this complexity, the following will be a bit wordy - I will define the
issue and at the same time try to clarify my vision:
Now, one of TWs strengths is that it is generic and adaptable, as
opposed to specialized. It is e.g; a database - but it cannot replace
any serious database. It can be used for calculations, but only very
simple ones. It can be used to design websites... but not really.
Point is this; my suggestion is aimed towards "average TiddlyWinking
Joe", you and me, not Stephen King nor an expert technical writer.
Thus;
I'd guess the most common use for a TW is as a an everyday note book.
A database to collect and access ideas, thoughts, snips of text.
Perhaps with a designated topic, perhaps not. For creating writings
*out of this*, the addition is that some tiddlers are "candidates for
book content" (or articles etc). Clearly there are many ways to write
books, articles etc, but TW allows for a **gradual, fractionated and
parallel** build up of multiple books. Really notelets crystallizing
into a greater whole.. or at least the beginning of greater wholes.
The writing process (@ Eric Weir)
Vincents top-down approach is definitely the classic way of writing,
but where I see the potential for TW is for a bottom-up approach; i.e
defining e.g chapters based on what natural groups of tiddlers have
emerged **over time**. A typical(?) TW have after some time
accumulated tiddlers with "character descriptions, that pie recipe, A+
fund managers, story plot ideas, that thermometer trick, cool villain
phrases, snips from other authors, that drink, that insight on
investing..." - and thanks to tagging of your tiddlers, a few "wholes"
are crystallizing, some three separate books or articles or papers or
whatever it is you aim at.
Obviously; additional and dedicated work will be needed to transform
loose tiddlers into a full script. But I firmly feel TW has the
potential to bring a parallel composing aspect that few other tools
can match.
The core need
For a top-down approach, a central issue is the outline to be filled.
For the bottom-up approach, such an overview - in this case gradually
generated - is still central to see where things are heading. This is
comparable to OOo's Navigator or MS Words Outline, or just a table of
contents. Such an overview gives a sense of what is covered in a to-be-
book, how much content there is, where content is lacking and of
course the outline of it all.
The closest thing so far for a top-down approach in TW seems to be;
http://twt-treeview-executive.tiddlyspot.com/
It is top-down because you must define a structure before hand.
Tagglytagging is more bottoms-up, generating a tree based on tags;
http://mptw.tiddlyspot.com/
I was delighted to learn of TiddlyDocs for TiddlyWeb, by PMario above;
http://hoster.peermore.com/recipes/tiddlydocs-demo/tiddlers.wiki
I haven't been able to play around with it enough yet, but it looks
very promising... if it wasn't for that it appears to not be
applicable to vanilla TW - or?
Because a book is strictly linear, the sequence of tiddlers is
crucial. Or, I should say, it's enough that the titles, as in a menu,
are sequenced as desired. A key issue here, that typical TW solutions
don't solve is to allow custom ordering. Twt-treeview, tagglytagging
and the forEachTiddler plugin as well as most sorting and filtering
algorithms existing in TW typically sort alphabetically. TiddlyDocs
seems to allow "free" sequencing though, and even wonderfully allows
re-ordering by a very smooth dragn'drop!
Ok, I think I'd better not write longer or I'll loose everyone.
Thoughts?
:-)
twgrp
The called for concept is simply about a structured way to to turn
selected tiddlers into a sequence (...then to be exported).
In practice, it would mean to able to either start out with an outline
and insert old tiddlers or write new tiddlers into it - or the bottom-
upp approach identifying naturally occuring topics in TW and structure
these into an outline (that is then completed, shifting it into more
of a top-down process). I think TW has a unique potential particularly
for the latter approach.
At some point, content creation is no longer the *main* issue and the
result is exported to a word processor where you smooth out the
splices between tiddler content, fill in gaps and do the formatting
etc.
...and then off to the printers or an editor or whatever.
Hope this clarifies things.
:-)
Tobias Beer
To me it seems that this is more a question about guidelines, "how
to's" and workflows for writing books, essays, papers... rather than
just about specific plugins.
Once you have a clear vision of your desired workflow, it's probably a
rather "simple" matter in tiddlywiki to develop a solid implementation
to work with.
So, maybe what is really asked for is a boiled down, streamlined
guidebook for...
1) gathering thoughts and information, while developing meaningful
relations and structure
2) defining / authoring / assembing a storyline based on the
previously somewhat nonlinear bits and pieces
So in order to know how to best glue individual pieces together seems
to largely depend on how you were collecting them to begin with and
also their shape and function.
I can well imagine that different outcomes, like...
- books
- papers
- articles
- interactive stories
- ...
require or at least benefit from different approaches when it comes to
collecting and finally authoring tidbits.
Tobias.
On 18 Mrz., 23:35, twgrp <matiasg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Touched upon many times, but simply not satisfactorily manifested yet:
> TW as a tool for authoring books!
>
> No, I cannot find any existing implementation for this, surprisingly.
> A few attemps have been made at writing books with TW and some ideas
> to use TW as a hypertext story tool. That's not what I'm talking
> about. I'm talking about TW as a tool to create normal, longer, to-be-
> printed books, articles, academic papers, magazines etc. I.e
> effectively creating, displaying and sequencing(!) tiddlers so that
> they can build up a *linear* whole.
>
> Let us make an attempt at identifying existing plugins and otherwise
> specify the needs to use TW as an effective authoring tool.
>
> I think a good solution to this really could open a new MAJOR
> APPLICATION for TW!
> The concept is generic and easily understood by anyone considering
> using TW.
> In my experience almost everyone has ideas about writing a book in him/
> her. (Don't you?)
> I'd even guess that this is of wider use than ANY of the applications/
> examples explicitly mentioned to promote TW athttp://www.tiddlywiki.com/#Examples
Tobias Beer
(and today found it in a restored browser tab), hehe... little
late. ;o)
Eric Weir
On Mar 19, 2010, at 10:40 PM, twgrp wrote:
> The closest thing so far for a top-down approach in TW seems to be;
> http://twt-treeview-executive.tiddlyspot.com/
> It is top-down because you must define a structure before hand.
In that sense, I would say twt-treeview-executive -- which as I understand it is simply a "classier" version of twt-treeview, the Blackicity-themed version of which is what I use -- is definitely not top-down. I use it very effectively with taggly-tagging, so that the tree menu reflects the taggly tagging structure, and is every bit as capable of evolving over time as the latter.
In addition to allowing for structure to emerge out of note taking and making, one of the things I like about this version of TW is that it gives me multiple routes into my collection of tiddlers -- through the tree, through tags, through searches, through the sidebar timeline, and through the alphabetized listing in the sidebar.
iain
surely you need to have some general structure in mind before you hit
twt-treeview-executive or some other form of Dave Gifford's original
notebook idea.
The question then is whether the mind map TW's might be of some use to
generate the ideas and some structure.
I must say I've never got the TW mind maps to work for me probably
because I don't understand them (which points to a fundamental problem
of no mind) but that isnt to say they wont work or inspire someone.
Regards
Iain
Eric Weir
On Mar 21, 2010, at 3:56 AM, iain wrote:
> surely you need to have some general structure in mind before you hit
> twt-treeview-executive or some other form of Dave Gifford's original
> notebook idea
Nope. I can start with an arbitrary structure -- a root topic and a few subtopics named without giving much thought to the naming or "proper" place in the tree heirarchy. As thinking develops as I collect notes, my thinking about how to structure them becomes a little more refined. There have been times when I've undertaken a radical restucturing of a TW containing in which I've collected a lot of notes and that as a consequence has a relatively carefully thought out structure. That, for me, is the beauty of TW. Or should I say, one of the beauties.
The only piece of software that comes anywhere close to it is an old DOS application, MaxThink, that I still use. It too, is good at organizing and reorganizing. When I said earlier that when I get to the place where I'm reading to write for an external audience I switch to a wordprocessor, that was not quite accurate. I go from TW to MaxThink, and only when I'm ready to format a finished product do I move to a wordprocessor.
Vincent
Anthony Muscio
I think you put the requirements rather well. As an interested, but lay Author this subject is of some interest to me. One of the things I enjoy doing, and hope I could demonstrate is an ability to conceptualise and generalise. This is a big part of tiddlywiki's current strength using tags/tiddler/WikiWords and the macros that operate against them.
I think it is arguable that tiddlyWiki's non-linear nature is a strength that sometimes expresses itself as a weakness. It is possible to represent any organisational model such as networked, hierarchical etc... in tiddlywiki however we do not have all the tools to efficiently manage these alternate models - eg; Book heiracy along with it's non-linear research notes or associated lists/tables.
In keeping with your crystallisation of the needs My notes in italic
If carefully defined the above solution could also be used for structured tagging eg; left hand side has a tagging structure and filtered tiddler on the right can be dragged and dropped to the left and obtain the relevant tag set - eg; Chapter1 Section2 MeetingCharacter1 or Personal Task Urgent
The final extension of these features would allow two heirachcal lists on the screen at once and the ability to drag drop tiddlers between them with an option to have the tiddler exist in both structures or only one (Thus remove during drag/drop).
With the above suggestion the tiddler name needs to be a meaningful descriptor of the contents (to assist organisation) so would not itself appear in the view one would use to "publish" the heirachy. It would be nice to be able to have the Published version in the left with the tiddlernames corresponding to it displayed in the right hand side and/or allow dbl-clicking on the published version would open the contributing tiddler.
On output formats - The wiki formatting is always ultimately presented as a HTML in your browser. This can be selected and "Copied as HTML' or text. Once captured in HTML a large pile of tools and converters are available for placement into a traditional word processor or other file format for delivery to the editor.
Perhaps a generic order within tag set tool could be developed. eg; The Tag "Items" may exist. If a global variable says tiddlywiki should order tiddlers tagged "items" then a field will be created in each tiddler tagged "OrderedItems" and a serial number placed in this - initially as created but updated when reordered.
Tags effectively act as sets We should have a a small suit of set manipulation tools and tiddlywki will be very strong..
Anyway I hope this is of some value to those that may like to develop these powerful additions.