Looking for some feedback
David
hop over and take a look. You don't need to read all this to see what
I'm trying to accomplish! Visit http://tiddly960.tiddlyspot.com/ and
let me know what you think.)
I think you will see how inspired I have been by TW and its seemingly
infinite customizability. I've spent the last few days tinkering on a
TW project and I'd be curious to hear your response.
I love the way TW let's you very quickly and easily enter, edit, and
format content, as well as retrieve what you've stored. I also love
all the great TW tools I've found in various resources. There's some
really cool stuff out there.
But TW stymied me on one issue ... I found it really, really, really
hard to do any really significant customization to the layout. TW is
designed that way, I'm sure, because its focus is on content, and it
has a very simple UI that most folks adapt to easily. It serves its
purpose very well. But I wondered if there might be an easy way to
give users very broad control over the layout (beyond even the header,
mainmenu, sidebar, and story).
One of the other tools I use often in my design work is a fluid CSS
layout framework. It's designed for rapid prototyping and development
of web sites, and it makes it very easy to play "what if" with
layouts. Its weakness (because it isn't intended for this purpose) is
that it does nothing to help you generate content. Most designers
would "lorem ipsum" everything, or apply it on top of whatever
existing static content they have available.
Since I'm one of those people who likes peanut butter on my chocolate,
I decided to try two put to great tools together. My goal was to
create a very easy way to display tiddlers anywhere on a page and
create any kind of layout, and still have TW running the show. I've
made a proof of concept putting the two tools together, letting the
grid framework drive the CSS layout, and TW drive the content, and do
it by using transclusion and making a very very simple and extensible
syntax. This is something that someone with no HTML or CSS experience
could work with easily, yet make quite simple or complex layout
changes for whatever purpose they may have. This also uses only CSS
and no javascript, though you'll see that there are plenty of
possibilities for including. That's just not in my skill set.
I've only been around TW and the community for a few weeks, and I
don't know a lot of the history, and I'm still getting familiar with
all the tools that are available, so there may well be other excellent
ways to achieve the same goal. But I would be very eager to get some
feedback from you TW wizards about whether this would make some kind
of contribution to the TW community. I can imagine it being used for a
variety of purposes beyond just theming.
This has not been extensively tested in any way, other than quick
browser checks in Firefox, Safari, Opera and Camino (all on a Mac).
I'm too lazy to boot my WinXP to see how it performs in IE (but I'm
not sure I really care :-) ). So check it out, download it, kick the
tires, and tell me what works and what doesn't. I'm very curious to
hear your suggestions and ideas.
http://tiddly960.tiddlyspot.com
Thanks for taking a tour!
David
P.S.: It is a testament to the brilliance of TiddlyWiki's design and
the good will of the members of this group that I was about to go from
and idea to a working site in about three days.
Alex Hough
I'm snowed in today so will have a play.
Alex
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lynnjUK
about import plugins), is it as easy as TW to use for simple website
development?
David
here in Memphis for days, but very dry (thank goodness, I don't like
the shiny stuff much). Have a play and let me know what you think!
David
On Jan 5, 5:28 am, Alex Hough <r.a.ho...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> First impressions: I really like it.
> I'm snowed in today so will have a play.
>
> Alex
>
> 2010/1/5 David <davidconne...@gmail.com>
> > tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com<tiddlywiki%2Bunsubscribe@googlegrou ps.com>
David
plugins or macros, but those may be helpful down the road (especially
for packaging it into something you can import into TW). It just uses
TW's transclusion to do everything (the ability to have one tiddler
show up inside of another).
As far as actually using it is concerned, one of the aha! moments I
had was when I realized that all an end user really needed was a very
simple syntax (NewRow, NewCol4, etc) to "design" a layout, then add
that to the basic TW PageTemplate. One of the benefits is that you
don't need to know any HTML, CSS, or Javascript, just create a few
tiddlers you want to display, write out a few short codes, and pop it
into the PageTemplate and you're done. I think if you can use TW, you
can use this.
Feel free to download it and play with it and let me know. I'd love to
get a non-technical person's perspective.
Thanks for taking the time to check it out.
David
Craig in Calgary
Thump! That's the sound of the palm of my hand slapping my forehead.
If Tiddly960 is the result of three (3) days' work, PLEASE continue to
contribute to the TW community.
If you're interested in a UI paradigm that might make configuring a
Tiddly960 easier for the neophyte TW user, take a look at
http://a-pm-experimental.tiddlyspot.com/#JQSorter by Mario Pietsch.
His drag-n-drop approach to arranging tiddlers for a presentation
could be adapted to allow a Tiddly960 user to take something like
http://tiddly960.tiddlyspot.com/#Tiddly960conceptualModel and arrange
their TW to suit.
Keep me posted on Tiddly960, I'm keenly interested.
Take care,
Craig Prichard
mailto : first_name period last_name at gmail period com
Mike
I like the layout :D
Neighbors?. . . (My family and I live it Bartlett, TN)
Thanks for sharing your project,
Mike
On Jan 5, 9:01 am, Craig in Calgary <craig.prich...@gmail.com> wrote:
> David,
>
> Thump! That's the sound of the palm of my hand slapping my forehead.
> If Tiddly960 is the result of three (3) days' work, PLEASE continue to
> contribute to the TW community.
>
> If you're interested in a UI paradigm that might make configuring a
> Tiddly960 easier for the neophyte TW user, take a look athttp://a-pm-experimental.tiddlyspot.com/#JQSorterby Mario Pietsch.
> His drag-n-drop approach to arranging tiddlers for a presentation
> could be adapted to allow a Tiddly960 user to take something likehttp://tiddly960.tiddlyspot.com/#Tiddly960conceptualModeland arrange
Tobias Beer
You clearly provided a powerful example on how to modify the
tiddlywiki layout in a more structured way... as opposed to fiddling
about until you kind of get what you wanted.
Tobias.
PMario
Have you tested emastic[1] or "the golden grid" [2] from the same
author (Vladimir Carrer)? What do you think about them? And why did
you choose "fluid 960"?
I really love malo[3] because of its size and it was easy to use with
JQSorter[4] and the transclude mechanism with the tiddler macro.
I have to think about Craigs idea to bring your concept and JQSorter
together. hmmmm....
regards Mario
[1] http://code.google.com/p/emastic/
[2] http://code.google.com/p/the-golden-grid/
[3] http://www.vcarrer.com/2009/01/prototyping-with-malo-css-library.html
[4] http://a-pm-experimental.tiddlyspot.com/#JQSorter
David
continue to contribute. I think TiddlyWiki is a fascinating project,
and, well, I had some free time on my hands during the winter break.
Actually, as I said, the fact that I could do this in just three days
says much more about TiddlyWiki, the Fluid 960 Grid System, and the
good folks in this forum. Great products and great people make great
ideas.
Mario really does some fantastic work. I had not seen his JQsorter
until now, and you're right ... that's exactly what this project
needs! I like Eric's "moveable" (TIddyTools) very much, but I just
prefer things that drop into place rather than float around. Just
personal preference. I'll be interested in whatever other ideas this
may generate.
Thanks for your feedbak, Craig!
David
On Jan 5, 9:01 am, Craig in Calgary <craig.prich...@gmail.com> wrote:
> David,
>
> Thump! That's the sound of the palm of my hand slapping my forehead.
> If Tiddly960 is the result of three (3) days' work, PLEASE continue to
> contribute to the TW community.
>
> If you're interested in a UI paradigm that might make configuring a
> Tiddly960 easier for the neophyte TW user, take a look athttp://a-pm-experimental.tiddlyspot.com/#JQSorterby Mario Pietsch.
> His drag-n-drop approach to arranging tiddlers for a presentation
> could be adapted to allow a Tiddly960 user to take something likehttp://tiddly960.tiddlyspot.com/#Tiddly960conceptualModeland arrange
David
Palace. I spent a good deal of time going back and forth to Bartlett
when I first moved to Memphis from New Orleans after Hurricane
Katrina. I was able to get my dad into a great assisted living
facility in Bartlett. I think if I chose to live out east, that's
probably the area I would pick.
Thanks for your feedback on the project!
David
On Jan 5, 9:16 am, Mike <eris...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello David !
>
> I like the layout :D
>
> Neighbors?. . . (My family and I live it Bartlett, TN)
>
> Thanks for sharing your project,
>
> Mike
>
> On Jan 5, 9:01 am, Craig in Calgary <craig.prich...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > David,
>
> > Thump! That's the sound of the palm of my hand slapping my forehead.
> > If Tiddly960 is the result of three (3) days' work, PLEASE continue to
> > contribute to the TW community.
>
> > If you're interested in a UI paradigm that might make configuring a
> > Tiddly960 easier for the neophyte TW user, take a look athttp://a-pm-experimental.tiddlyspot.com/#JQSorterbyMario Pietsch.
Craig in Calgary
The base Tiddly960 has 97 untagged tiddlers. A few appropriate tags
would help with navigating through your solution, especially if
someone incorporates [[TagglyTagging|http://mptw.tiddlyspot.com/
#TagglyTagging]] into Tiddly960. TagglyTagging Tutorial (http://
mptw.tiddlyspot.com/#[[TagglyTagging Tutorial]]) explains and
demonstrate how this works and [[TiddlySpot FAQ|http://
faq.tiddlyspot.com]] is an excellent example of how TagglyTagging can
work.
My suggestions for the first level of tags (I haven't accounted for
all tiddlers or all tags):
* tag=instruction or documentation or help or howto or ...:
12ColumnGrid, Anywhere, Documentation (the See Also section is a good
touch and it could be generated automatically via the forEachTiddler
(fET) plugin (http://tiddlywiki.abego-software.de/
#ForEachTiddlerPlugin), [[How it works]], [[Introducing Tiddly 960]]
(you're on the right with links to other tiddlers), NeedMedia,
Tiddly960conceptualModel, [[Under the hood]], [[Welcome to Tiddly
960]], etc.
* tag=css: BrandingHeader, FluidGrid.css, FluidLayout.css,
FluidNav.css, FluidReset.css, etc.
* tag=example: BlurbOne, BoxMediaContent, MainMenuAnnounce,
MediaContent, etc.
* tag=element: NewBanner, NewBox, NewCol1, NewRow, RowHeader,
TwStartsHere, etc.
* tag=system or systemTiddler: GettingStarted, PageTemplate,
StyleSheet, etc.
* a tag to identify all tiddlers that can be deleted without
compromising the integrity of Tiddly960
* a tag to identify all core Tiddly960 tiddlers so someone could
import them into their TW
If you applying any tagging, be sure to review all your instructional
content to insure consistent use of terms. I'm a Technical
Communicator and Information Architect. This is the kind of stuff I
notice. I'm also currently between contracts (thus the time to spend
on this).
More suggestions in no particular order (remember, you asked):
* You might want to consider upgrading to the latest TW Core (2.5.3)
* There are some tiddlers I think you don't need to include anymore.
So far I've found: HowToMakeaBox, HowToMakeaColumn, LoremIpsum.
* I would break the Documentation tiddler into several tiddlers
(Tiddly 960 Markup, Extending Tiddly 960, What is a "fluid grid"?,
What does 960 mean?). You can still render the content within
Documentation as if it's a single tiddler. And by breaking it down a
little (chunking) you can reuse the 'chunks' for popup definitions, a
glossary, etc.
* For consistency with TW CSS (e.g. StyleSheet), wrap your CSS
tiddlers (e.g., Fluid*.css, BrandingHeader) in <!--{{{--> and <!--}}}--
> - BrandingHeader is a good example of TW confusing the source code
markup for wiki markup and rendering the content incorrectly
* re:CssTheming tiddler (a more knowledgeable TWer can correct me on
this if I'm wrong) - colors should be handled through ColorPalette,
not StyleSheet
* re:WhatIsTiddlyWiki tiddler - change the tiddler title to just
TiddlyWiki then you can change all ~TiddlyWiki references to just
TiddlyWiki and they will link to this tiddler
* re:WhatIsTiddlyWiki tiddler - To be consistent with most TW
adaptations change ''~TiddlyWiki'' to ''[[TiddlyWiki|http://
tiddlywiki.com]]
* If you want to allow a single Tiddly960 TW to support multiple
layouts, something like http://www.tiddlytools.com/#SwitchThemePlugin
could be implemented - see http://www.tiddlytools.com/#SwitchThemePluginInfo
for details
* By putting a reference to where a example tiddler is being
displayed, it will make it easier to find and modify elements in the
current PageTemplate. Put another way: unraveling the heirarchy of
your tiddlers is currently very difficult. For example:
** In NeedaFooter, add "see [[RowFooter]]"
** In RowFooter, add "see [[RowBelowOther]]"
** In BannerText2, add "see [[RowBelowOther]]"
** In Box12ColumnExample, add "see [[RowBelowOther]]"
* Create another Tiddly960conceptualModel tiddler that is formatted
for the layout of Tiddly960, i.e. PageTemplate (see
http://tbgtd.tiddlyspot.com/#SiteLayout for a good example) with
working links to the tiddler elements. Here is the beginning of a mock-
up which doesn't have working links. It only includes the top section
of Tiddly960 (Note: Google Groups will push CRLFs into this listing):
This demonstrates the Tiddly 960 conceptual model of rows, columns,
and boxes, based on [[PageTemplate]].
<html><style>
.T960container { border: 1px solid gray; background: #fff; font-
weight: normal; padding: 6px; width:auto; overflow:auto;}
.T960Pagecontainer { border: 1px solid gray; background: #eee; font-
weight: normal; padding: 6px; width:auto; overflow:auto;}
.T960row { border: 1px solid red; background: #fbb; padding: 12px;
margin-bottom:6px; position:relative; width:auto; overflow:auto;}
.T960column { border: 1px solid green; background: #9c9; padding: 6px;
margin-bottom:6px; margin-right:6px; float:left; position:relative;
overflow:auto;}
.T960box { border: 1px solid blue; background: #99c; padding: 6px;
margin-bottom:6px; position:relative; width:auto; overflow:auto;}
.TW960row { border: 6px solid blue; background: #99f; padding: 12px;
margin-bottom:6px; position:relative; width:auto; overflow:auto;}
.TW960column { border: 1px solid blue; background: #bbf; padding: 6px;
margin-bottom:6px; margin-right:6px; float:left; position:relative;
overflow:auto;}
.TW960box { border: 1px solid blue; background: #ddf; padding: 6px;
margin-bottom:6px; position:relative; width:auto; overflow:hidden;}
.T960label { margin:6px; margin-bottom:9px; display:block;
width:auto;}
.T960Headerlabel { padding: 6px; background: #99c; margin:6px; margin-
bottom:9px; display:block; width:auto;}
.T960grid { background-color:#ffc; border:1px solid yellow; margin:
5px; margin-bottom:9px; display:inline-block; width: 5%;}
</style>
<div class="T960Pagecontainer">
<div class="T960container"><span class='T960Headerlabel'>RowHeader,
which calls <b>BrandingHeader</b> <i>(SiteTitle, SiteSubtitle, etc.)</
i></span>
<span class='T960label'><b>RowAbove</b>, which calls NewRow,
NewCol12, NewBanner (so that "tiddler BannerText" can be displayed),
EndBanner - <i>A Fluid 960...</i></span><hr/>
<div class="T960box"><span class='T960label'>Then <b>RowAbove</b>
calls NewRow, NewCol12, NewBoxBorder (so that "tiddler
WhatIsTiddly960" can be displayed), EndBox - <i>What is Tiddly
960?...</i></span></div>
<span class='T960label'>Then <b>RowAbove</b> calls NewRow, <i>(no
content)</i></span>
<div class="T960column" style="width:29%"><span
class='T960label'>NewCol4, <i>(no content)</i></span>
<div class="T960box"><span class='T960label'>NewBox,
"tiddler BlurbOne", EndBox, - <i>Display tiddlers anywhere</i></span></
div></div>
<div class="T960column" style="width:29%"><span
class='T960label'>NewCol4, <i>(no content)</i></span>
<div class="T960box"><span class='T960label'>NewBox,
"tiddler BlurbTwo", EndBox, - <i>Put them above or below your main TW</
i></span></div></div>
<div class="T960column" style="width:29%"><span
class='T960label'>NewCol4, <i>(no content)</i></span>
<div class="T960box"><span class='T960label'>NewBox,
"tiddler BlurbThree", EndBox, - <i>Scroll below this TW to find out
more</i></span></div></div></div>
<div style='clear:both;'></div>
</html>
Take care,
Craig
p.s. And you thought ''you'' were long winded.
David
frameworks, and personally I just keep coming back to 960. I used the
original fixed system from Nathan Smith for a good while, and then
switched to Stephen Bau's version (I happen to prefer fluid over
fixed, but it's personal preference).
But I think what really cllcked for me was when I put 2 and 2 together
and realized Bau's Fluid 960 had been adapted to work with some jQuery
widgets (http://www.designinfluences.com/fluid960gs/12/), and of
course TiddlyWiki uses jQuery too. I'm not much of a javascripter, but
it just seemed like a good match. It has been an interesting
experiment. I'm sure that this same approach could be used with nearly
any CSS framework. It took me only about three days to put TiddlyWiki
and Fluid 960 together -- but that's not counting the week I spent
coming up with the code to reset TiddlyWiki's CSS so the main
components did not have to be fixed in their usual places:
#mainMenu, #submainMenu, #sidebar, #sidebarOptions, #sidebarTabs,
#displayArea, #tiddlerDisplay { position: relative; border:1px solid
#ddd;}
#mainMenu { background: none; margin:0; padding:0;}
#submainMenu { background: none; margin:0; padding:0;}
#displayArea { margin:0;padding:0; background: none;}
#tiddlerDisplay { background: none; margin:0; padding: 0;}
#sidebar { float:right; background: none; margin:0; padding: 0;}
#sidebarOptions { background: none; margin:0; padding: 0;}
#sidebarTabs { background: none; margin:0; padding: 0;}
That gives you a clean start to work from.
And I have just taken my first look at JQsorter, and think it would be
a wonderful drag and drop interface for something like 960 (or any
other CSS framework). I'll be very interested to see what comes of
that. Let me know how I can help.
Thanks for the feedback!
David
David
If anyone prefers to start with an "empty" TiddlyWiki with just the
bare-bones of the Tiddly 960 framework, you can download that from
http://tinyurl.com/tiddly960empty, which will redirect you to drop.io.
David
David
to give me such detail. It's very, very helpful.
A few of the main points you made I was aware of. I had not done any
tagging of the content at this stage, and I also knew there were a
bunch of vestigial tiddlers floating around somewhere in that
tiddlyspace. I think even some of my own "notes to self" are still in
there. I did go through and strip out the extraneous material when I
posted the bare bones version for download this afternoon (http://
tinyurl.com/tiddly960empty). You are also absolutely right about
chunking the material into smaller bites, and copyediting for
editorial style. My original background was in journalism, so I'm sure
I will revisit all of that soon. As I'm sure you guessed, I mostly
wanted to throw this out there quickly to get feedback, so I
definitely need to go back and give the site some polish.
Also I just got a chuckle when I thought about your comment on
chunking. I used to be pretty disciplined about keeping information in
manageable chunks, but then I went to graduate school, where anything
less than 20 or 30 pages is considered trivial. :-)
You caught me by surprise on the core version. I thought I was on
2.5.3, but I see that this file is not. I think that may have happened
in the process of setting it up on tiddlyspot.com. This was my first
time through that process and I hit a few initial roadblocks. I think
I wound up importing my T960 content into their base file rather than
being able to upload my own original. I'm sure I'll get that straight
and I appreciate you catching it.
Thanks also for your guidance on some of the TW standards, such as
wrapping the CSS in <!--{{{--> and <!--}}}-->. Obviously I haven't
been working with TW long enough to pick up on those details yet, so
it's very helpful to know. Also your suggestions for a coherent
tagging system are great and give me a big head start down that road.
For that matter, I need to revisit my naming conventions for the
tiddlers themselves. The 960 syntax evolved consistently enough, but I
got a bit goofy with a lot of the other elements. Part of that was the
process of figuring out just how many levels I needed to create to do
what I was doing, and I made a few false starts that got deeper than
necessary. You see the debris of that in things like RowBelow and
RowBelowOther. I even think I had a RowRowColumnBox in there
somewhere, which kept making that darn children's song roll around in
my head.
You also make an excellent point about being able to navigate the
display hierarchy. It is something I grew aware of during my rapid
development frenzy, and I've been chewing on some possible approaches
to it. I got half the problem solved when I figured out how to make
the headline displayed in the tiddler link back and open the tiddler
in the main story, so I can get from a display box to edit the
content. Going the other way is more problematic and definitely
something that needs consideration. Some sort of parent/sibling/child
tagging may be a solution, but I haven't thought it out fully.
You're also right about the ColorPalette vs CSS styling. It's just a
case of TW and Fluid 960 handling it differently, and I have not made
an attempt to reconcile the two approaches. For the most part I tried
to let TW do its thing, and let Fluid 960 do its thing, and keep both
as true to their original as I could. But since the overriding goal is
putting Fluid to the service of TW, conflicts such as these should
probably follow TW standards. One of the main thoughts I'm trying to
sort out is just how radically this changes the default PageLayout
file and whether that is good for most users. It may be better to
build a handful insertion points into the PageLayout file (RowAbove,
BelowSidebar, AboveFooter) and then just have users insert their
changes in those tiddlers rather than tinkering around in PageLayout.
If the insertion points were empty they would have no effect, and more
technically savvy users would have no problem with adding additional
insertion points if they chose. I'm wondering (out loud) if there is a
tipping point somewhere for users between finding the right tiddler
among many to use, or finding the right section of code among
lengthier stretches. ThemeSwitcher is another possibility for
managing it too. I haven't really looked too closely yet at how most
TW theme packages are standardized, so that may move things one way or
another.
Your link to the tbgtd site layout example was really helpful. I knew
the conceptual model was not really up to snuff, but again it was just
getting it out quickly. I definitely want to revisit how I present it,
and also some of the ways I can demonstrate the grid through an
overlay. I think I have a place tucked away in the stylesheet or
pagelayout that puts borders on all the boxes, but it breaks the
layout miserably. What I really want to be able to do is to have a
semi-transparent overlay appear on the click of a button (see
http://fluidgrids.com and click Show Grids). I just haven't gotten
that far yet.
Your mockup of the conceptual model was great way of extending what
was already there (and BBedit swallowed those CRLFs like a champ). It
makes me think that a more interactive model would be an excellent way
to present it, and I'm not sure whether that means popup, tooltips,
folding/unfolding, or another kind of visual indicator of hierarchy as
the user interacts with the model. Even Mario's wonderful JQsorter
that you pointed to earlier could be an interesting possibility even
if it is just used for demonstrating the concepts. But stepping across
that line into javascriptopia is a big leap for me, so that will
probably take me a little longer. I've done enough different kinds of
scripting and coding over the years to have a good intuitive sense of
the logic of it, but I just haven't gotten deeper than plugging in
plug ins. Yet. I know there are going to be some good ideas from the
gurus on this group about "this or that piece would be better as a
script," so I'll just do my best to keep up. :-)
Thanks for the really thorough run through of the details. It's
actually pretty reassuring that most of your comments were all things
I had considered or things that I know are very manageable given a
little time to go back through things. I really was not quite sure
what to expect when I posted last night. I'm happy this little project
looks like it might be useful. I've been having fun putting together
some examples today, and I'm actually enjoying how darned easy it is
to shuffle things around and put this here and that there with just a
few lines of syntax.
TiddlyWiki is a blast!
David
> layouts, something likehttp://www.tiddlytools.com/#SwitchThemePlugin
> could be implemented - seehttp://www.tiddlytools.com/#SwitchThemePluginInfo
> for details
> * By putting a reference to where a example tiddler is being
> displayed, it will make it easier to find and modify elements in the
> current PageTemplate. Put another way: unraveling the heirarchy of
> your tiddlers is currently very difficult. For example:
> ** In NeedaFooter, add "see [[RowFooter]]"
> ** In RowFooter, add "see [[RowBelowOther]]"
> ** In BannerText2, add "see [[RowBelowOther]]"
> ** In Box12ColumnExample, add "see [[RowBelowOther]]"
> * Create another Tiddly960conceptualModel tiddler that is formatted
> for the layout of Tiddly960, i.e. PageTemplate (seehttp://tbgtd.tiddlyspot.com/#SiteLayoutfor a good example) with
Måns
Great job!
> I'm happy this little project
> looks like it might be useful. I've been having fun putting together
> some examples today, and I'm actually enjoying how darned easy it is
> to shuffle things around and put this here and that there with just a
> few lines of syntax.
This project of yours looks very promising!
Great to see new directions evolving and a fresh go on the layout.
I'm really looking forward to see where it leads - and to me it seems
that it's potential is almost limitless..
Please carry on :-)
Thanks for sharing
regards Måns Mårtensson
Alex Hough
I'd be interested in getting the Eric and FND analysis on this approach.
Tiddlers in double brackets are used in PageTemplate. I've not seen this before, and was not aware it could be done. Its the same style as in the StyleSheet, only HTML is transcluded in the the PageTemplate.
My hunch is that the CSS framework is best made implementable as a theme.
Once one framework has been implemented as a theme, it would be easy for other frameworks to be plugged into TW.
I think it would be a great help. My long term project would have benefited from a framework approach - if only from the browser compatibility issue. However, without struggling with my project I wouldn't understand the benefits the fluid grid system uses.
keep up the good work, very interesting stuff
Alex
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David
evolves, too. This certainly isn't the only way to approach it, and I
hope it inspires others to build on it.
David
David
thoughts. One advantage of being new to TW is that I really don't know
what I'm doing. :-) So doing something like using transclusion to put
tiddlers in double brackets in PageTemplate may not be the normal way,
or even the best way, but I tried it and it worked. When I started I
hadn't really planned to have TW put together bits and pieces of the
PageTemplate on the fly, but that's where I wound up, and it seemed to
me that for folks unfamiliar with html and css it is technically a
little friendlier. I'm sure that my lack of knowledge of javascript
also pushed me in a certain direction within the bounds of my skill
set. This certainly isn't the only way to approach this, and other
frameworks may be a better choice, but I'll defer that discussion to
those with more experience with TW. As for the CSS as a theme, I'm
sure you're right, but I just haven't had any time to look at how TW
themes are usually structured. Once again, not knowing what I'm doing
has its benefits.
Thanks for the feedback. It's really appreciated.
David
On Jan 6, 5:15 am, Alex Hough <r.a.ho...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hi David
>
> I'd be interested in getting the Eric and FND analysis on this approach.
>
> Tiddlers in double brackets are used in PageTemplate. I've not seen this
> before, and was not aware it could be done. Its the same style as in the
> StyleSheet, only HTML is transcluded in the the PageTemplate.
>
> My hunch is that the CSS framework is best made implementable as a theme.
>
> Once one framework has been implemented as a theme, it would be easy for
> other frameworks to be plugged into TW.
>
> I think it would be a great help. My long term project would have benefited
> from a framework approach - if only from the browser compatibility issue.
> However, without struggling with my project I wouldn't understand the
> benefits the fluid grid system uses.
>
> keep up the good work, very interesting stuff
>
> Alex
>
> 2010/1/6 Måns <humam...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi David
>
> > Great job!
>
> > > I'm happy this little project
> > > looks like it might be useful. I've been having fun putting together
> > > some examples today, and I'm actually enjoying how darned easy it is
> > > to shuffle things around and put this here and that there with just a
> > > few lines of syntax.
>
> > This project of yours looks very promising!
> > Great to see new directions evolving and a fresh go on the layout.
> > I'm really looking forward to see where it leads - and to me it seems
> > that it's potential is almost limitless..
> > Please carry on :-)
> > Thanks for sharing
>
> > regards Måns Mårtensson
>
> > --
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shavinder
David, this is JUST what the doctor ordered!!!!!!!
Read my lips. PLEASE KEEP WORKING ON THIS.
Its great!!!
PMario
I tried to make a print preview with firefox 3.5.6 on a wind.ows
system. But it stopped after 2 pages. Only to mention it.
regards Mario
David
> system. But it stopped after 2 pages. Only to mention it.
>
> regards Mario
Thanks for mentioning it, Mario. I hadn't even thought about printing
yet. I don't think there are any print CSS styles set up in it, so
it's definitely something to put on the to do list ... or maybe now I
should call it a "bug tracker"? :-)
Safari on the Mac handled it pretty well, but Firefox Mac hit the same
two-page bump you did. That surprised me. I would have guessed Safari
and FF hook into the same print/PDF engine in Mac OS X, but I guess
not.
Thanks
David
David
continue the project and see where it leads. I'll be snowed in with
single-digit temps (in Memphis??) for the next few days, so we'll see
what progress I make. I do have to face the cold, hard reality of the
semester starting in about a week, but for now this is keeping me
quite entertained.
Keep me posted on how you think you can use it and what works and what
doesn't.
Thanks
David
Anthony Muscio
TonyM
If you have not found an easy way to do it with TiddlyWiki, you have missed something.
www.tiddlywiki.com
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David
both counts. The tiddler names I used in this example got a little
confusing, partly because I went through the development very quickly
and started without knowing where I would end up. These definitely
need an update. You are also spot on about navigation up and down the
hierarchy, and that has to be given some thought (I'm open to
suggestions). Right now, for a proof of concept, I was satisfied that
I could look at a tiddler in one of the display boxes and click the
headline and open it in edit mode in the main story. You are right
that going the other way is not very intuitive. Again I'm open to
suggestions.
I'm sure your thoughts about icons and cookies are good ones, but
that's beyond my current skill set (though I think I could probably
manage to get an icon to display where I want it). I hope this winds
up being a bit of a collaborative effort, especially when it comes to
plugins and macros and other more technical stuff. I'm sure there are
a lot of ways to approach it, and if indeed it becomes part of TW or a
"variant", much more thought will have to be given to all kinds of
questions, such as whether Fluid 960 is the best framework to use, how
it should be packaged (theme?), and how much can be made more
automated for users. Probably a lot of other stuff I haven't even
thought of yet.
Just glad to have the positive feedback, and glad to hear you're
interested in trying to integrate it with other TW tools.
David
On Jan 7, 6:13 pm, Anthony Muscio <anthony.mus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> David, and Craig
>
> First David.
> Love it - Tiddly960. It is the kind of revolution TiddlyWiki could use to
> maintain it's leading adaptability with a little more user friendliness it
> could be compulsory. Constructively The Names of the tiddlers in the wiki
> could be more user friendly. BlurbOne is not really intuitive and is
> not visible in the box itself - you need to follow a chain of information
> which maks me ask;
>
> Could there be an automatic way, perhaps an icon in the top left hand corner
> of each element where you could open the source tiddler. This would make
> development and customisation very simple with an individual cookie allowing
> it to be disabled and a global cookie to disable all icons
> from appearing (optionaly onced published).
>
> Once again thanks for a great example of a flexible analytical approach to
> development.
>
> Craig,
> I have difficulty following the taggly Tagging instructions. Can you
> possible give me a summery of the main points in implementing it in
> tiddly960. Please please please.
>
> Thanks Tony
>
> TonyM
>
> If you have not found an easy way to do it with TiddlyWiki, you have missed
> something.www.tiddlywiki.com
>
> > layouts, something likehttp://www.tiddlytools.com/#SwitchThemePlugin
> > could be implemented - see
> >http://www.tiddlytools.com/#SwitchThemePluginInfo
> > for details
> > * By putting a reference to where a example tiddler is being
> > displayed, it will make it easier to find and modify elements in the
> > current PageTemplate. Put another way: unraveling the heirarchy of
> > your tiddlers is currently very difficult. For example:
> > ** In NeedaFooter, add "see [[RowFooter]]"
> > ** In RowFooter, add "see [[RowBelowOther]]"
> > ** In BannerText2, add "see [[RowBelowOther]]"
> > ** In Box12ColumnExample, add "see [[RowBelowOther]]"
> > * Create another Tiddly960conceptualModel tiddler that is formatted
> > for the layout of Tiddly960, i.e. PageTemplate (see
> >http://tbgtd.tiddlyspot.com/#SiteLayoutfor a good example) with
> > tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com<tiddlywiki%2Bunsubscribe@googlegrou ps.com>
David
Based on the feedback I've received this week in this forum (thank
you!), I've gone into Tiddly 960 and done some overall cleanup and
organization.
* BrandingHeader renamed AlternateHeader
* Added tiddler AllRows just for convenience (maybe can automate?)
* Tagged all current rows with Row
* Tagged all tiddlers on each row with that row's name
* Deleted unused tiddlers
* Tagged all tiddlers to identify their function
* Broke Documentation and FAQ into smaller chunks (but creating more
tiddlers)
* Created daily journal to track changes
* Created previous and next links in each Row tiddler so that you can
follow the chain
Nothing earthshaking here, just some needed tidying up, however the
result was a larger number of tiddlers with smaller chunks of content,
though overall better organized with tags. I still have not come up
with an effective solution of going from a tiddler displayed in the
story to the box it is displayed in elsewhere on the page. An HTML
anchor tag will jump you to the right area of the page, I just haven't
figured out exactly how or where it should be implemented in the main
tiddler display.
Suggestions on this or anything else are welcome! And thanks to all
for your terrific support on my little project!
David
oxydum
Could you have a look at this :
http://groups.google.fr/group/tiddlywikifr/browse_thread/thread/8e2d6e3554ca4aa6?hl=fr
Alex Hough
Alex
ps. French words for commands has a certain chic in my (admittedly Francophile) eyes -
isoloer: close others ,
chrono : timeline ,
plus : more
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Craig in Calgary
On Jan 7, 5:13 pm, Anthony Muscio <anthony.mus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Craig,
> I have difficulty following the taggly Tagging instructions. Can you
> possible give me a summery of the main points in implementing it in
> tiddly960. Please please please.
At the moment I can think of two (2) basic scenarios or approaches for
applying tags to tiddlers.
#1: in a basic TiddlyWiki, tags provide a mechanism for grouping and
filtering tiddlers. You can identify all plugins by finding the
tiddlers tagged 'systemConfig'. A TiddlyWiki containing hundreds of
tiddlers would be almost useless if you can't easily find what you are
looking for in one or more tiddlers within the TiddlyWiki. The default
search mechanism in TiddlyWiki and even the search plugins, e.g.
http://tiddlywiki.abego-software.de/#YourSearchPlugin,
http://devpad.tiddlyspot.com/#SimpleSearchPlugin,
http://www.tiddlytools.com/#SearchOptionsPlugin, can help you find
text and phrases but the number of hits can still be large and
difficult to traverse. At the least I would recommend each tiddler
have at least one (1) tag. For example, in my TiddlyWikis I tag any
tiddlers that were created from TiddlySnip with the tag 'TiddlySnip',
tiddlers containing any CSS code are tagged 'css', tiddlers that
contain information about making or spending money are tagged 'bank',
etc.
Tony, thinking about tagging to answer your question has sparked an
idea. I would like to see a more robust http://www.tiddlytools.com/#SearchOptionsPlugin
that can search on multiple fields with multiple values
simultaneously, e.g. 'title begins with Journal*' AND 'text includes
Budget' AND 'tags includes 2009'. The larger our TiddlyWikis become,
the more difficult it becomes to drill down and find the needle in the
haystack.
#2: TagglyTagging ([[TagglyTagging|http://mptw.tiddlyspot.com/
#TagglyTagging]]) takes tags to a new level. You need to be careful
and deliberate in your use of tags in a TagglyTagging-enabled
TiddlyWiki because the tags drive the tiddlers into a hierarchical
structure. All of the Getting Things Done (GTD) -enabled TiddlyWikis
leverage this behavior to facilitate a complex tree of tiddlers. Take
a look at Tobias' http://tbgtd.tiddlyspot.com. The tutorial at
http://mptw.tiddlyspot.com/#[[TagglyTagging%20Tutorial]] explains it
well.
Here's a simple example. I did the following steps in
http://craig.prichard.mptw.tiddlyspot.com/:
Step #1: create a tiddler titled 'Project TagglyTagging' but do not
give it any tags. Save the tiddler and leave it open.
Step #2: create a tiddler titled 'Phase 1' and give it the tag
[[Project TagglyTagging]] (the square brackets are required because
there's a space in the tag). As soon as you save this tiddler you'll
see the name of appear in the 'Project TagglyTagging' tiddler.
Additional tiddlers tagged [[Project TagglyTagging]] will appear
"under" the Project TagglyTagging tiddler (as if it was the root node
and these were subdirectories directly beneath it).
Step #3: create a tiddler titled 'Phase 2' and also give it the tag
[[Project TagglyTagging]].
Step #4: create a tiddler titled 'Read MPTW Tutorial' and give it the
tag [[Phase 1]]. You'll see this tiddler title appear in the 'Phase 1'
tiddler and you'll see a '(1)' appear next to the 'Phase 1' tiddler
link in the 'Project TagglyTagging' tiddler.
In an outline format this would appear as:
I. Project TagglyTagging
A. Phase 1
1. Read MPTW Tutorial
B. Phase 2
The basic concept is that the tags govern the placement of the
tiddlers within the hierarchy. Tiddlers can appear in multiple places
if they have multiple tags. This is where the complexity kicks in. For
example, http://tbgtd.tiddlyspot.com/#[[fixed%20stuff]] is tagged
#done, &tech, @dev, and tbGTD-project. These four (4) tags give this
tiddler four (4) different contexts to appear in:
* #done appears under the # action section
* &tech appears under the & area section
* @dev appears under the @ context section
* tbGTD-project appears under the $active section of the $ project
section
Tobias could also have tagged this tiddler with a priority (^1high,
^2medium, ^3low), a stage (§0.kickoff, etc.), a realm (-private or -
work), a contact, etc. The point is that once your structure is well-
defined and adhered to, you can arrange your tiddler content very
effectively.
I haven't addressed answering your question as it applies to Tiddly960
specifically because it's a work in progress that doesn't have the
TagglyTagging plugins incorporated in it currently.
I hope the muddy waters are less so.
Take care.
Craig
Tobias Beer
Just wanted to say that these were some very helpful explanations as
for tbGTD... I'll check if any of that should be in the help/
documentation bit of it. Btw., sorry if I have been a bit "lazy" as
for any further work on this.
Tobias.
On Jan 10, 8:09 am, Craig in Calgary <craig.prich...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tony,
>
> On Jan 7, 5:13 pm, Anthony Muscio <anthony.mus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Craig,
> > I have difficulty following the taggly Tagging instructions. Can you
> > possible give me a summery of the main points in implementing it in
> > tiddly960. Please please please.
>
> At the moment I can think of two (2) basic scenarios or approaches for
> applying tags to tiddlers.
>
> #1: in a basic TiddlyWiki, tags provide a mechanism for grouping and
> filtering tiddlers. You can identify all plugins by finding the
> tiddlers tagged 'systemConfig'. A TiddlyWiki containing hundreds of
> tiddlers would be almost useless if you can't easily find what you are
> looking for in one or more tiddlers within the TiddlyWiki. The default
> search mechanism in TiddlyWiki and even the search plugins, e.g.http://tiddlywiki.abego-software.de/#YourSearchPlugin,http://devpad.tiddlyspot.com/#SimpleSearchPlugin,http://www.tiddlytools.com/#SearchOptionsPlugin, can help you find
> text and phrases but the number of hits can still be large and
> difficult to traverse. At the least I would recommend each tiddler
> have at least one (1) tag. For example, in my TiddlyWikis I tag any
> tiddlers that were created from TiddlySnip with the tag 'TiddlySnip',
> tiddlers containing any CSS code are tagged 'css', tiddlers that
> contain information about making or spending money are tagged 'bank',
> etc.
>
> Tony, thinking about tagging to answer your question has sparked an
> idea. I would like to see a more robusthttp://www.tiddlytools.com/#SearchOptionsPlugin
> that can search on multiple fields with multiple values
> simultaneously, e.g. 'title begins with Journal*' AND 'text includes
> Budget' AND 'tags includes 2009'. The larger our TiddlyWikis become,
> the more difficult it becomes to drill down and find the needle in the
> haystack.
>
> #2: TagglyTagging ([[TagglyTagging|http://mptw.tiddlyspot.com/
> #TagglyTagging]]) takes tags to a new level. You need to be careful
> and deliberate in your use of tags in a TagglyTagging-enabled
> TiddlyWiki because the tags drive the tiddlers into a hierarchical
> structure. All of the Getting Things Done (GTD) -enabled TiddlyWikis
> leverage this behavior to facilitate a complex tree of tiddlers. Take
> a look at Tobias'http://tbgtd.tiddlyspot.com. The tutorial athttp://mptw.tiddlyspot.com/#[[TagglyTagging%20Tutorial]] explains it
> well.
>
> Here's a simple example. I did the following steps inhttp://craig.prichard.mptw.tiddlyspot.com/:
>
> Step #1: create a tiddler titled 'Project TagglyTagging' but do not
> give it any tags. Save the tiddler and leave it open.
> Step #2: create a tiddler titled 'Phase 1' and give it the tag
> [[Project TagglyTagging]] (the square brackets are required because
> there's a space in the tag). As soon as you save this tiddler you'll
> see the name of appear in the 'Project TagglyTagging' tiddler.
> Additional tiddlers tagged [[Project TagglyTagging]] will appear
> "under" the Project TagglyTagging tiddler (as if it was the root node
> and these were subdirectories directly beneath it).
> Step #3: create a tiddler titled 'Phase 2' and also give it the tag
> [[Project TagglyTagging]].
> Step #4: create a tiddler titled 'Read MPTW Tutorial' and give it the
> tag [[Phase 1]]. You'll see this tiddler title appear in the 'Phase 1'
> tiddler and you'll see a '(1)' appear next to the 'Phase 1' tiddler
> link in the 'Project TagglyTagging' tiddler.
>
> In an outline format this would appear as:
> I. Project TagglyTagging
> A. Phase 1
> 1. Read MPTW Tutorial
> B. Phase 2
>
> The basic concept is that the tags govern the placement of the
> tiddlers within the hierarchy. Tiddlers can appear in multiple places
> if they have multiple tags. This is where the complexity kicks in. For
> example,http://tbgtd.tiddlyspot.com/#[[fixed%20stuff]] is tagged
Craig in Calgary
No apologies necessary. I haven't done any more work on breaking and
rebuilding tbGTD and I haven't been waiting on anything from you
either. So all is well. BTW, is there an update to tbGTD in the near
future or any other updates to your goodies that we can look forward
to? I learn much from picking apart the work of others, kind of like
Sylar on "Heroes" without the sociopathology (I hope).
I'm wondering if it's time to review and revise the MPTW TagglyTagging
Tutorial or just supplement it. I too struggled with the concepts at
first. What helped me the most was to dig in and do some
experimenting. Maybe a video tutorial along those lines would reduce
the cognitive load of TW newbies.
Just thinking outloud.
Take care.
Craig
David
960 system *within* the tiddlers is an interesting approach for
creating multicolumn content within tiddlers.
David
On Jan 9, 3:41 pm, oxydum <infofiltr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi David,
>
> Could you have a look at this :http://groups.google.fr/group/tiddlywikifr/browse_thread/thread/8e2d6...
>
> http://oxydum.tiddlyspot.com/index.html
> oxydum
Anthony Muscio
Thanks for your exhaustive description of tigglytagging. I am sure it will prove useful to many. Unfortunately my needs (an I expect for others) are much more refined. I really love the MPTW and tagglytagging plugins. They do provide ways of using TiddlyWiki that expands it's use quite substantialy. The Problem is that the tools are not documented in such a way that one can easily take what the want from MPTW and put it in an existing tiddlywiki such as one that has the TaggedTemplate Tweek, tiddly960 etc... It is hard to separate what is interdependent and what is part of MPTW with the actual Plugins I want to use. In some ways the documentation well written for the novice, the tools autoconfig themselves etc... But following the trail to reverse engineer it is impossible to my limited brain especially when I do not have details of viewtemplate changes etc...
You help would be helpful as we could add these great tools to Tiddly960.
TonyM
If you have not found an easy way to do it with TiddlyWiki, you have missed something.
www.tiddlywiki.com
BLMHStech
I have been following Tiddlywiki discussions for quite some time
before trying my hand at it.
I'd dare say that this is a very fascinating subject to say the least.
When I saw David's creation
I was like 'wow' so I started experimenting and wondered 'this would
be great if it could be themed!'
I decided to work at and this is what I have so far:
http://t960black.tiddlyspot.com/
Critiques? Sure go ahead!
And...a show of gratitude is in order to Jeremy Ruston all the way
through the community to David Lester (the small tips worked, but
still experimenting...THANKS!) for being an inspiration.
Sincerely,
Julio
On Jan 5, 3:41 am, David <davidconne...@gmail.com> wrote:
> (I tend to get long winded, so if you want to cut to the chase, just
> hop over and take a look. You don't need to read all this to see what
> I'm trying to accomplish! Visithttp://tiddly960.tiddlyspot.com/and
> let me know what you think.)
>
> I think you will see how inspired I have been by TW and its seemingly
> infinite customizability. I've spent the last few days tinkering on a
> TW project and I'd be curious to hear your response.
>
> I love the way TW let's you very quickly and easily enter, edit, and
> format content, as well as retrieve what you've stored. I also love
> all the great TW tools I've found in various resources. There's some
> really cool stuff out there.
>
> But TW stymied me on one issue ... I found it really, really, really
> hard to do any really significant customization to the layout. TW is
> designed that way, I'm sure, because its focus is on content, and it
> has a very simple UI that most folks adapt to easily. It serves its
> purpose very well. But I wondered if there might be an easy way to
> give users very broad control over the layout (beyond even the header,
> mainmenu, sidebar, and story).
>
> One of the other tools I use often in my design work is a fluid CSS
> layout framework. It's designed for rapid prototyping and development
> of web sites, and it makes it very easy to play "what if" with
> layouts. Its weakness (because it isn't intended for this purpose) is
> that it does nothing to help you generate content. Most designers
> would "lorem ipsum" everything, or apply it on top of whatever
> existing static content they have available.
>
> Since I'm one of those people who likes peanut butter on my chocolate,
> I decided to try two put to great tools together. My goal was to
> create a very easy way to display tiddlers anywhere on a page and
> create any kind of layout, and still have TW running the show. I've
> made a proof of concept putting the two tools together, letting the
> grid framework drive the CSS layout, and TW drive the content, and do
> it by using transclusion and making a very very simple and extensible
> syntax. This is something that someone with no HTML or CSS experience
> could work with easily, yet make quite simple or complex layout
> changes for whatever purpose they may have. This also uses only CSS
> and no javascript, though you'll see that there are plenty of
> possibilities for including. That's just not in my skill set.
>
> I've only been around TW and the community for a few weeks, and I
> don't know a lot of the history, and I'm still getting familiar with
> all the tools that are available, so there may well be other excellent
> ways to achieve the same goal. But I would be very eager to get some
> feedback from you TW wizards about whether this would make some kind
> of contribution to the TW community. I can imagine it being used for a
> variety of purposes beyond just theming.
>
> This has not been extensively tested in any way, other than quick
> browser checks in Firefox, Safari, Opera and Camino (all on a Mac).
> I'm too lazy to boot my WinXP to see how it performs in IE (but I'm
> not sure I really care :-) ). So check it out, download it, kick the
> tires, and tell me what works and what doesn't. I'm very curious to
> hear your suggestions and ideas.
>
> http://tiddly960.tiddlyspot.com
>
> Thanks for taking a tour!
>
> David
>
> P.S.: It is a testament to the brilliance of TiddlyWiki's design and
> the good will of the members of this group that I was about to go from
> and idea to a working site in about three days.
Tobias Beer
David
Even beyond the theme styling, I'm really excited to see you
experimenting with the layout syntax. You added RowJulio :-) above the
TW, and you rearranged the columns on RowMedia. Looks like you're
getting the hang of it very quickly. I really wanted to get a few more
examples posted but just haven't had much time this week. Thanks for
showing off your creation! Keep it up and keep us posted.
David
(P.S.: Thank you for the kind mention, but don't think my name really
belongs in the same sentence as Jeremy's). :-)
Alex Hough
Alex
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Julio
* David - In effect we all (from a philosophical standpoint) belong
in the same sentence with Jeremy. Because an old saying goes to the
effect of: 'without the student what is there to teach!?...without the
teacher what is there to learn!?...it's all part of that harmonious
balance... :)
* Alex - I did toy with the idea of orange but personal preference
lured me to yellow...but definitely I will toy around a bit!
Hmmm...maybe on gradients a combo of the 3 may work well...
Have a great day!
Julio
http://t960black.tiddlyspot.com/
On Jan 13, 1:36 am, Alex Hough <r.a.ho...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Looks great: the black and orange really work too
>
> Alex
>
> 2010/1/13 David <davidconne...@gmail.com>
> > tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com<tiddlywiki%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
Jeremy Ruston
* David - In effect we all (from a philosophical standpoint) belong
in the same sentence with Jeremy. Because an old saying goes to the
effect of: 'without the student what is there to teach!?...without the
teacher what is there to learn!?...it's all part of that harmonious
balance... :)
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--
Jeremy Ruston
mailto:jer...@osmosoft.com
http://www.tiddlywiki.com