TiddlySpace First Time User Experience

[chris...@gmail.com]

The Osmosoft gang is going to be spending some time over the next
couple of weeks attempting to improve the first time experience with
TiddlySpace. Some of the goals of that have been captured in a few
tiddlers[1] but in order for the work to be successful input is needed
from a diverse audience.

If you have recently tried TiddlySpace (at http://tiddlyspace.com/) (or
have been interested in trying, please do) it would be great if you
could report on your impressions here in this thread.

* Where things were confusing.
* The bumps in the road.
* What was most or least interesting or useful.
* Suggestions for making the system more approachable and informative.

We are aware that the system doesn't yet sell itself well, but we
aren't quite sure what approach to take to make it better.

One major issue is that TiddlySpace is designed to be accessible to
people who may not have seen TiddlyWiki before, and in some
situations will never see the TiddlyWiki interface when using
TiddlySpace (instead they will see and use tiddlers, in a variety of
interfaces).

Thanks very much for any input. We are only able to bring TiddlySpace
to its full potential with input from all kinds of voices, including
yours.

P.S: In case you're concerned the issues with import and related
problems in recent TiddlyWiki releases are actively being worked on,
primarily by Martin, simultaneously with this other work.

[1] http://tiddlyspace.com/search?q=title:TiddlySpaceGoals

--
Chris Dent http://burningchrome.com/
[...]

[Reenen]

Hi Chris (and others)

What I found confusing, was for instance when I clicked on the site's
subtitle (to edit it), it opened up a tiddler for TiddlySpace (as in a
TiddlySpace), whilst the obvious action would be to open up the
subtitle tiddler.

The main menu I edited appeared at the top of the page, not to the
left, as the GettingStarted Tiddler suggested. Also, that wasn't
particularly pretty.

I'll continue a bit and give more feedback later.

Regards,
-Reenen

On Sep 5, 3:11 pm, chris.d...@gmail.com wrote:
> The Osmosoft gang is going to be spending some time over the next
> couple of weeks attempting to improve the first time experience with
> TiddlySpace. Some of the goals of that have been captured in a few
> tiddlers[1] but in order for the work to be successful input is needed
> from a diverse audience.
>

> If you have recently tried TiddlySpace (athttp://tiddlyspace.com/) (or

[Reenen]

Other than the siteicon it's very hard (in fact I haven't seen how) to
upload an image.

[colmjude]

Thanks very much for the feedback Reenen, it's greatly appreciated.

On this specific point

On Sep 6, 7:50 am, Reenen <rlau...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Other than the siteicon it's very hard (in fact I haven't seen how) to
> upload an image.

This is very useful, in the past we haven't always been great at
exposing all the useful functionality. This is something we really
want to rectify with our current focus on this first time experience.

To upload images you can use the uploader that can be found in the
backstage under the options tab, or you can use the uploader plugin.
To use the plugin create a tiddler with either
<<binaryUploadPublic>> in it to save the uploaded images to public
or
<<binaryUploadPrivate>> to save them privately.

The macro does accept some other parameters, which if you are
interested you can read about[1]

Hope that helps, and thanks once again for your's

Colm

[1] - http://macros.tiddlyspace.com/binaryUpload%20macro

[Yakov]

Is it ok to put feedback into a TiddlySpaceGoals tiddler in a
TiddlySpace or it's better to write here?

[Reenen]

In terms of Chris's post on Google+ (https://plus.google.com/
116116783696216238689/posts/JgAmbBTcmSQ), it seems that the
tiddlyspace architecture is very versatile, but in that less user
friendly.

So if the end use of tiddlyspace is to be a wiki-like environment,
then things like uploading binary files should be very easy and
intuitive user interface.

If you envision tiddlyspace to be versatile, then when opening a new
space, users could be prompted what they're aim for the space is, so
then think of some options (wiki, notes, sandbox, more ??, and empty
(for advanced users only))

For each of the end-uses a template could be built (a customized
GettingStarted page if you like), but perhaps also a collection of
plug-ins which will expose things like formatting, uploading of
images.

Are you pitching TiddlySpace at people with advanced knowledge of
tiddlers, or are you trying to to offer a service? Depending on
which, gear yourselfs towards that customer.

In *my* case, I am trying to generate a wiki about a game, so
naturally screenshots of in-game events, or the user interface is an
obvious requirement, so for me having to search to find a way to
upload an image is in no way good. But I am not necessarily the
target audience, in which case not supporting it intuitively is fine.

In terms of the technical aspects, clicking on the Space: XXXX part is
not at all intuitive if never (or in my case very long ago) faced with
a tiddlywiki backend.

In terms of the backend we have:
Members
Includes
Tiddlers
Plugins
Batch
Options
Tweaks
Import
Export

I'd suggest starting the backend with a summary page:
No of members: X
No of tiddlers: Y
Activity: (ie people visiting/using the space)
Other interesting stats about the space... (edits?)

Then have Options and Tweaks and perhaps Plugins as obvious stuff that
a space administrator may want to explore, and then have tuck the more
advanced stuff like Includes, Batch, Plugins, Import, Export away
somewhere deeper.

Anyawy, I gtg, good luck!

Regards,
-Reenen

[chris...@gmail.com]

On Sep 6, 2:53 pm, Yakov <yakov.litvin.publi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is it ok to put feedback into a TiddlySpaceGoals tiddler in a
> TiddlySpace or it's better to write here?

Either is fine. I found your TiddlySpaceGoals tiddler soon after you
created it. Thanks for your input.

It may seem counterintuitive but I think that as we evolve TiddlySpace
to be a system where one of the interfaces is TiddlyWiki, rather than
TiddlyWiki being _the_ interface, the TiddlyWiki experience will
actually get better.

It is because we've tried to hork TiddlySpace stuff into TiddlyWiki
that the TiddlyWiki experience is not a "seamless" as it could be. I
think if we let TiddlyWiki be TiddlyWiki, and let TiddlySpace be about
tiddlers, we can keep things bounded, clean, and easier to understand.

[Julie]

Hi Chris & everyone,

I've been using TW for years now to collect and organization
information for schooling my children. When they were younger, it was
easy to pop in the thumb drive and get the info. However, it's getting
old switching the drive between my computer and my son's. TiddlySpace
seems like a good solution for us to collaborate.

First impressions:

Well, I'd like to actually have some. I used FF6 on an iMac then FF7
on the PC. No blockers enabled et. cetera. I can't create a site.

I tried to create a space with a username/pwd. The page appears to be
updating and then returns to the home page. I tried to login with the
new info and just get returned to the home page again.

I tried to create the site with my OpenID. I get authorized and the
URL updates to show "http://tiddlyspace.com/?
openid=tau.myvidoop.com&user=GUEST#auth:OpenID=tau.myvidoop.com" but
displays the home page. I tried to login with the OpenID with the same
result.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Julie

[chris...@gmail.com]

On Sat, 1 Oct 2011, Julie wrote:

> I've been using TW for years now to collect and organization
> information for schooling my children. When they were younger, it was
> easy to pop in the thumb drive and get the info. However, it's getting
> old switching the drive between my computer and my son's. TiddlySpace
> seems like a good solution for us to collaborate.

Yes, I think it will probably work very well for that...

> Well, I'd like to actually have some. I used FF6 on an iMac then FF7
> on the PC. No blockers enabled et. cetera. I can't create a site.

...once it is going :(

> I tried to create a space with a username/pwd. The page appears to be
> updating and then returns to the home page. I tried to login with the
> new info and just get returned to the home page again.

My guess is that in the recent changes we made to the frontpage and
the registation code some error handling got dropped and what is
happening is that you're attempting to register a username that is
either taken or doesn't fit the required format and the system is
failing to tell you about it.

However testing bad usernames myself, just now, I get appropriate
error messages, so not sure. With good usernames new accounts are
being created.

Is it possible you are blocking cookies in any way?

If you could tell me a time and date (and time zone) of round about
when you tried I can look in the logs to see if I could discover
more information.

Also if you could report the username (or usernames) you tried that
will help. If you prefer not to share that information in public you
can email me privately.

We should be able to get things rolling soon.

[tejjyid]

I created a tiddler called "tsjuly" as per some posting related to this...should I repost here?

I have never had a clear idea of how Tiddlyspace is supposed to work, nor its relation to Tiddlywiki. Pretty much every time I try to use some plugin - painfully tracked down - it turns out to be TW specific. The comment made further down here - that TW should be about TW and TS about tiddlers I find particularly bewildering: I thought TW was about tiddlers? And I thought TS was about collaboration?

And how does one use TW, if not through tiddlers? And what/where are the TS interfaces that expose tiddlers without exposing TW?

(And in fact, how does that gel with this, from the docs space?
A space may be thought of as a TiddlyWiki hosted on TiddlyWeb.)

Plus you say "We haven't been very good about exposing functionality": Endorsed!

I'm actually quite keen to get involved in documenting stuff - but I have no idea where or how to start.

Andrew

[chris...@gmail.com]

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012, tejjyid wrote:

> I created a tiddler called "tsjuly" as per some posting related to
> this...should I repost here?

The idea was to tag the tiddler tsjuly, so if you add that tag, it
will show up on the radar.

> I have never had a clear idea of how Tiddlyspace is supposed to work, nor
> its relation to Tiddlywiki. Pretty much every time I try to use some plugin
> - painfully tracked down - it turns out to be TW specific. The comment made
> further down here - that TW should be about TW and TS about tiddlers I find
> particularly bewildering: I thought TW was about tiddlers? And I thought TS
> was about collaboration?

What do you mean by "TW specific"?

> And how does one use TW, if not through tiddlers? And what/where are the TS
> interfaces that expose tiddlers without exposing TW?

The idea there is that TiddlyWeb makes it possible to work with
tiddlers outside of tiddlywiki. For example your tsjuly tiddler
(assuming this is yours) can be reached on the web like this:

http://andrewsimon.tiddlyspace.com/tsjuly

From which I can make a bookmark, that quotes it:

http://cdent-bkm.tiddlyspace.com/tsjuly

> (And in fact, how does that gel with this, from the docs space?
> A space may be thought of as a TiddlyWiki hosted on TiddlyWeb.)

As you've noted the docs are a bit inconsistent, but it is true that a
space may be thought of as a tiddlywiki hosted on tiddlyweb. It may
also be thought of a collection of tiddlers that are present on the
web. My main space doesn't use tiddlywiki at all, it just operates as
a more standard wiki:

http://cdent.tiddlyspace.com/

You might ask, why bother? What do I gain from not using TiddlyWiki.
For me what I get is more direct access to the tiddlers without
TiddylyWiki being in the way. Each of those tiddlers can be access and
edited directly over the HTTP API that tiddlyweb present.

The canonical URI of that HelloThere tiddlers is:

http://cdent.tiddlyspace.com/bags/cdent_public/tiddlers/HelloThere

it can be accessed in other representations. Here are some (but not
all):

http://cdent.tiddlyspace.com/bags/cdent_public/tiddlers/HelloThere.txt
http://cdent.tiddlyspace.com/bags/cdent_public/tiddlers/HelloThere.json
http://cdent.tiddlyspace.com/bags/cdent_public/tiddlers/HelloThere.atom

Using the web API it can be changed and manipulated by a large number
of tools, including, but not limited to TiddlyWiki.

> Plus you say "We haven't been very good about exposing functionality":
> Endorsed!

You might wish to read this posting in the [tiddlyspace] group where I
explain some of the reasons for this:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlyspace/g3SOnPGX8_U/_7KhIpyrv_QJ

> I'm actually quite keen to get involved in documenting stuff - but I have
> no idea where or how to start.

I recommend you get in contact with pmario and mat mentioned in that
thread referenced just above. They appear to have some plans and hopes for
improving and consolidating the TiddlyWiki aspects of TiddlySpace.

[tejjyid]

On Saturday, 21 July 2012 21:40:15 UTC+10, Chris Dent wrote:

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012, tejjyid wrote:

> I created a tiddler called "tsjuly" as per some posting related to
> this...should I repost here?

The idea was to tag the tiddler tsjuly, so if you add that tag, it
will show up on the radar.

If only I could read; OK, will do.

> I have never had a clear idea of how Tiddlyspace is supposed to work, nor
> its relation to Tiddlywiki. Pretty much every time I try to use some plugin
> - painfully tracked down - it turns out to be TW specific. The comment made
> further down here - that TW should be about TW and TS about tiddlers I find
> particularly bewildering: I thought TW was about tiddlers? And I thought TS
> was about collaboration?

What do you mean by "TW specific"?

TiddlyWiki specific; that is, there are a number of plugins that work in the TiddlyWiki file format that don't work in Tiddlyspace.

> And how does one use TW, if not through tiddlers? And what/where are the TS
> interfaces that expose tiddlers without exposing TW?

The idea there is that TiddlyWeb makes it possible to work with
tiddlers outside of tiddlywiki. For example your tsjuly tiddler
(assuming this is yours) can be reached on the web like this:

    http://andrewsimon.tiddlyspace.com/tsjuly

From which I can make a bookmark, that quotes it:

    http://cdent-bkm.tiddlyspace.com/tsjuly

I understand that now, but I note that you introduced a "new" concept, TiddlyWeb to explain it.

> (And in fact, how does that gel with this, from the docs space?
> A space may be thought of as a TiddlyWiki hosted on TiddlyWeb.)

As you've noted the docs are a bit inconsistent, but it is true that a
space may be thought of as a tiddlywiki hosted on tiddlyweb. It may
also be thought of a collection of tiddlers that are present on the
web. My main space doesn't use tiddlywiki at all, it just operates as
a more standard wiki:

    http://cdent.tiddlyspace.com/

I know it's true that a space MAY be thought of as a tiddlywiki hosted on tiddlyweb, but it's clearly a bit misleading.

You might ask, why bother? What do I gain from not using TiddlyWiki.
For me what I get is more direct access to the tiddlers without
TiddylyWiki being in the way. Each of those tiddlers can be access and
edited directly over the HTTP API that tiddlyweb present.

 

I would never ask "why bother"; my questions would be much more along the lines of
a.) Why keep it secret?
b.) What are some ideas for how/when/why to think about when to use each path?

The canonical URI of that HelloThere tiddlers is:

    http://cdent.tiddlyspace.com/bags/cdent_public/tiddlers/HelloThere

it can be accessed in other representations. Here are some (but not
all):

    http://cdent.tiddlyspace.com/bags/cdent_public/tiddlers/HelloThere.txt
    http://cdent.tiddlyspace.com/bags/cdent_public/tiddlers/HelloThere.json
    http://cdent.tiddlyspace.com/bags/cdent_public/tiddlers/HelloThere.atom

Using the web API it can be changed and manipulated by a large number
of tools, including, but not limited to TiddlyWiki.

> Plus you say "We haven't been very good about exposing functionality":
> Endorsed!

You might wish to read this posting in the [tiddlyspace] group where I
explain some of the reasons for this:

    https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlyspace/g3SOnPGX8_U/_7KhIpyrv_QJ

> I'm actually quite keen to get involved in documenting stuff - but I have
> no idea where or how to start.

I recommend you get in contact with pmario and mat mentioned in that
thread referenced just above. They appear to have some plans and hopes for
improving and consolidating the TiddlyWiki aspects of TiddlySpace.

Well, I will - but I note that you haven't mentioned collaboration at all, and I don't quite understand where it fits in to what you have said.
"Collaboration", as a use-purpose, and the primary reason I switced from Tiddlyspot to Tiddlyspace, wouldn't be expected to be specific to one of json/wikify/htm/txt/atom access methods, would it?. So is it built into TiddlyWeb? Or is it a red herring? Or something else?

It's not a given that I'm necessarily interested in the Tiddlywiki interface - it's just what I happen to know right now, and what I guess most people coming into Tiddlyspace know. What I'm interested in is functionality around collaborative work practices.

--
Chris Dent                                   http://burningchrome.com/

                                 [...] d4e3ynbttttt

[chris...@gmail.com]

First off, I realize based on your comments at the end of your
response that I missed the main thrust of your inquiry which was about
collaboration, I can try to address that in this thread as well, but
keep in mind that I'm just "having a conversation" here so may not
always see the details you want me to see unless you ask your
questions explicitly.

That out of the way on into some of your comments:

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012, tejjyid wrote:

> TiddlyWiki specific; that is, there are a number of plugins that work in
> the TiddlyWiki file format that don't work in Tiddlyspace.

True. But there are plenty of TiddlyWiki plugins that don't work in
TiddlyWiki when other plugins are in that TiddlyWiki too. The
incompatibility between plugins is a function of the plugins, usually
not TiddlyWiki (that is, the file "empty.html" that you get from
tiddlywiki.com) nor TiddlySpace.

There _is_ a subset of TiddlyWiki plugins that create and automatically
save tiddlers, that because of a bug in the core of TiddlyWiki, do not
quite work on TidldyWikis hosted on TiddlySpace: the tiddlers get
created but not saved. A fix for this has been made in the TiddlyWiki
core, but not yet released into the wild, and thus not into the
TiddlySpace ecosystem. There's activite discussion in the
[tiddlywikidev] group about the state of releases.

So what I'm trying to say is: using plugins in TiddlyWiki has always
been a bit of crapshoot, long before TiddlySpace ever came along, and
it is often the case that some experimentation is required to get
things to work as desired.

One of the early goals of TiddlySpace was to make it easy for people
to establish known-good collections of plugins that other people could
then include in their spaces using the inclusion mechanism. When I say
"people" here, I mean members of the using public.

> I understand that now, but I note that you introduced a "new" concept,
> TiddlyWeb to explain it.

That's pretty common when explaining anything isn't it? If you like we
can go back to first principles, but in the name of expediency and
efficiency I'd like to be able to assume that you have access to the
internet and are willing and able to learn?

http://tiddlyweb.com/

TiddlyWeb is the core web service that runs underneath TiddlyWeb.

If we are to go back to first principles then it is important that we
engage in a dialog rather than me guessing everything you might want
to know. I can't make that guess so my only option there would be to
write endlessly about things. If I did that there wouldn't be any
TiddlySpace. If I started doing that now, then when TiddlySpace broke
I would be too busy writing for you to fix it.

However, if we engage in dialog I can target my responses and we
_both_ become more aware of what matters, what is missing and we are
both empowered to share with other people.

> I know it's true that a space MAY be thought of as a tiddlywiki hosted on
> tiddlyweb, but it's clearly a bit misleading.

No, it's not "clearly". I'm not yet fully understanding where you feel
you've been misled?

> I would never ask "why bother"; my questions would be much more along the
> lines of
> a.) Why keep it secret?
> b.) What are some ideas for how/when/why to think about when to use each
> path?

a) There's no intention to keep it a secret. It is, pretty much, a
resource allocation problem. The information is out there, but it is
not discoverable and that is bad. There have been some
misunderstandings about how or who is supposed to be managing taking
the esoterica that people like me write and packaging it into coherent
pieces of documentation. There's hope that this will improve somewhat
now that the technical underpinnings of the service have reached some
level of stability/maturity.

b) That's a very good question and I don't know that there is yet a
good answer because though the technical underpinnings have some
maturity, the UX does not. The decision tree at the moment is probably
something like:

* Do you like TiddlyWiki?
* then use the tiddlywiki path
* Are comfy with writing or assembling your own javascript, css and
html?
* Yes: then use the other path
* No: use the the tiddlywiki path

> Well, I will - but I note that you haven't mentioned collaboration at all,
> and I don't quite understand where it fits in to what you have said.
> "Collaboration", as a use-purpose, and the primary reason I switced from
> Tiddlyspot to Tiddlyspace, wouldn't be expected to be specific to one of
> json/wikify/htm/txt/atom access methods, would it?. So is it built into
> TiddlyWeb? Or is it a red herring? Or something else?

A few points:

* Because TiddlySpace/Web puts the tiddlers (including the tiddlywiki
form) on the web, it means that they are accessible from anywhere,
by anyone, at anytime (modulo net access but even that is fungible
by downloading a tiddlywiki and syncing it back up later).

* TiddlyWeb has the concept of users, which TiddlySpace uses to have
the concept of members. Any space can add as any members as the
existing members wish to add. For example you can add additional
authors in the andrewsimon space from here:

http://andrewsimon.tiddlyspace.com/_space

* Those additional representations provide a mode of tracking stuff.
For instance you can subscribe to the Atom feed of a space, by which
a group can then track what's going on it.

* TiddlyWeb supports a technique to avoid what is described as the
lost update problem[1]. What this means is that multiple people can
edit in the same space at pretty much the same time with low risk of
clobbering content.

* There's a project called AMBIT on TiddlySpace which is a good
example of collaborating groups:

http://tiddlymanuals.tiddlyspace.com/
http://ambit.tiddlyspace.com/

Those things above are for collaboration where there is a collection
of people who have already identified as some kind of group and
through the membership concept have access to the same content. There
are also proto-groups which collaborate by seeing other people's
content and annotating their own to refer elsewhere. The following and
reply concepts in TiddlySpace (which are not yet fully formed) are
designed to support this kind of interaction.

> It's not a given that I'm necessarily interested in the Tiddlywiki
> interface - it's just what I happen to know right now, and what I guess
> most people coming into Tiddlyspace know. What I'm interested in is
> functionality around collaborative work practices.

At the moment the most effective way to learn about and improve that
interest is to talk with people who are in the same boat. It's what
I'm interested in as well. Your input and feedback, but most
importantly conversation, will drive things forward.

[1] http://www.w3.org/1999/04/Editing/

[HansWobbe]

On Sunday, July 22, 2012 5:37:45 AM UTC-4, Chris Dent wrote:

...

That out of the way on into some of your comments:

...

Chris...

I've been using TW and TS for quite a few years, but only as a technically interested "amateur" developer, as I haven't been a "professional" programmer since the 1970s.  In spite of my tenure, I found your explanations of some of these TW and TS concepts very helpful.  It is, after all, relatively easy for me to just make use of what what I've learned so far to get things done, in spite of knowing that I really should spend some time studying the under-pinnings in order to become more productive and to be able to contribute more.

I also really liked your statements about the need for meaningful dialog since most of the "new" learning I've acquired over the years came from monitoring the questions and answers posted by others.  And I emphatically agree that the time spent documenting, detracts from time spent on development and support.

From my perspective, both TW and TS are maturing nicely.  As they do so, it will become easier for "veteran" users like me to help with tasks like documentation.  This will then make it easier for eager newcomers to become productive personally and, hopefully, in a collaborative manner.

My purpose in posting this is simply to express my appreciation for your work and that of the many other contributors and to state that I think your point about the need for "dialog" is very valid. As the available tools for this continue to mature, I suspect the resulting "documentation" also will.

-- Hans

[tejjyid]

Thanks Chris - see below. I wouldn't want to say I've had an epiphany, but I think I've started to crystallise some ideas.

On Sunday, July 22, 2012 7:37:45 PM UTC+10, Chris Dent wrote:

First off, I realize based on your comments at the end of your
response that I missed the main thrust of your inquiry which was about
collaboration, I can try to address that in this thread as well, but
keep in mind that I'm just "having a conversation" here so may not
always see the details you want me to see unless you ask your
questions explicitly.

That out of the way on into some of your comments:

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012, tejjyid wrote:

> TiddlyWiki specific; that is, there are a number of plugins that work in
> the TiddlyWiki file format that don't work in Tiddlyspace.

True. But there are plenty of TiddlyWiki plugins that don't work in
TiddlyWiki when other plugins are in that TiddlyWiki too. The
incompatibility between plugins is a function of the plugins, usually
not TiddlyWiki (that is, the file "empty.html" that you get from
tiddlywiki.com) nor TiddlySpace.

Yes. I think I need to re-think my conception of TW *back* to the idea of the empty.html file. I can see that will be more productive. The compatibility/interoperability of plugins is more usefully a separate discussion.  

There _is_ a subset of TiddlyWiki plugins that create and automatically
save tiddlers, that because of a bug in the core of TiddlyWiki, do not
quite work on TidldyWikis hosted on TiddlySpace: the tiddlers get
created but not saved. A fix for this has been made in the TiddlyWiki
core, but not yet released into the wild, and thus not into the
TiddlySpace ecosystem. There's activite discussion in the
[tiddlywikidev] group about the state of releases.

So what I'm trying to say is: using plugins in TiddlyWiki has always
been a bit of crapshoot, long before TiddlySpace ever came along, and
it is often the case that some experimentation is required to get
things to work as desired.

One of the early goals of TiddlySpace was to make it easy for people
to establish known-good collections of plugins that other people could
then include in their spaces using the inclusion mechanism. When I say
"people" here, I mean members of the using public.

I'm not sure how that's working, BTW, in terms of the "known". No mind, I'll think about that as I get moving on documentation. I'm thinking of starting a thread here for discussions about documentation strategy/standards. 

> I understand that now, but I note that you introduced a "new" concept,
> TiddlyWeb to explain it.

That's pretty common when explaining anything isn't it?

Well, I hope not, but never mind.

 

If you like we
can go back to first principles, but in the name of expediency and
efficiency I'd like to be able to assume that you have access to the
internet and are willing and able to learn?

I'll let you off explaining the first principles, so long as they're written down somewhere and you keep telling me where that is. FWIW, I think you have supplied me with enough documentation for a little while. Thanks, I like to read. It might be my best thing.

    http://tiddlyweb.com/

TiddlyWeb is the core web service that runs underneath TiddlyWeb.

If we are to go back to first principles then it is important that we
engage in a dialog rather than me guessing everything you might want
to know. I can't make that guess so my only option there would be to
write endlessly about things. If I did that there wouldn't be any
TiddlySpace. If I started doing that now, then when TiddlySpace broke
I would be too busy writing for you to fix it.

However, if we engage in dialog I can target my responses and we
_both_ become more aware of what matters, what is missing and we are
both empowered to share with other people.

That's fair enough. I'll try to be more precise. 

> I know it's true that a space MAY be thought of as a tiddlywiki hosted on
> tiddlyweb, but it's clearly a bit misleading.

No, it's not "clearly". I'm not yet fully understanding where you feel
you've been misled?

I think there's quite a big difference between this description, and the idea that TW is an application running on a datastore called TiddlySpace (Which was my understanding of something you had said elsewhere). I still think it's a big difference (hence misleading) but I doubt now whether the difference will be that important in the overall scheme of things. For different users, there may well be different descriptions.

> I would never ask "why bother"; my questions would be much more along the
> lines of
> a.) Why keep it secret? 
> b.) What are some ideas for how/when/why to think about when to use each
> path?

a) There's no intention to keep it a secret. It is, pretty much, a
resource allocation problem. The information is out there, but it is
not discoverable and that is bad. There have been some
misunderstandings about how or who is supposed to be managing taking
the esoterica that people like me write and packaging it into coherent
pieces of documentation. There's hope that this will improve somewhat
now that the technical underpinnings of the service have reached some
level of stability/maturity.

Yes, sorry, that was unnecessarily snarky on my part. 

b) That's a very good question and I don't know that there is yet a
good answer because though the technical underpinnings have some
maturity, the UX does not. The decision tree at the moment is probably
something like:

    * Do you like TiddlyWiki?
      * then use the tiddlywiki path
    * Are comfy with writing or assembling your own javascript, css and
      html?
      * Yes: then use the other path
      * No: use the the tiddlywiki path

Yes, although I like "edit" for journalling on the bus.

I just saw this in the other group and will certainly check it out. My collaboration interest is for a group of teachers who when not teaching are mainly actors, musicians, filmmakers, dancers and writers (i.e. the long term unemployed). They are radically non-technical, but all pretty switched on. I think AMBIT may have some good ideas for this.

Those things above are for collaboration where there is a collection
of people who have already identified as some kind of group and
through the membership concept have access to the same content. There
are also proto-groups which collaborate by seeing other people's
content and annotating their own to refer elsewhere. The following and
reply concepts in TiddlySpace (which are not yet fully formed) are
designed to support this kind of interaction.

Pmario's sent me some stuff on this, will follow up soon. 

> It's not a given that I'm necessarily interested in the Tiddlywiki
> interface - it's just what I happen to know right now, and what I guess
> most people coming into Tiddlyspace know. What I'm interested in is
> functionality around collaborative work practices.

At the moment the most effective way to learn about and improve that
interest is to talk with people who are in the same boat. It's what
I'm interested in as well. Your input and feedback, but most
importantly conversation, will drive things forward.

I think the documentation exercise will keep me busy. Thanks for the time/effort on this to date - I certainly feel a lot more comfortable in terms of being able to think about the whole TS/TW universe. Hopefully I can reciprocate with something useful.

[chris...@gmail.com]

On Thu, 26 Jul 2012, tejjyid wrote:

> Thanks Chris - see below. I wouldn't want to say I've had an epiphany, but
> I think I've started to crystallise some ideas.

I'm glad things are starting to fill in. They are for me too.

More below:

>> One of the early goals of TiddlySpace was to make it easy for people
>> to establish known-good collections of plugins that other people could
>> then include in their spaces using the inclusion mechanism. When I say
>> "people" here, I mean members of the using public.
>
> I'm not sure how that's working, BTW, in terms of the "known". No mind,
> I'll think about that as I get moving on documentation. I'm thinking of
> starting a thread here for discussions about documentation
> strategy/standards.

Yes, it's not yet working in the common case. I think there are at
least three forces working against it (in addition to the already
oft-stated documentation issue):

* The common TiddlyWiki behavior is to copy plugins around, because
that's how it works in offline TiddlyWiki.
* There's no warning mechanism, when you copy in a plugin, that tells
you "Hey, did you know you could just include this from space X?"
* We're all a bunch of hippies around here and neither want to force
people to do things a certain way, nor do the work people might be
able to do themselves, so there aren't many officially blessed
spaces.

>>> I understand that now, but I note that you introduced a "new" concept,
>>> TiddlyWeb to explain it.
>>
>> That's pretty common when explaining anything isn't it?
>
> Well, I hope not, but never mind.

We may wish to take this part of the conversation over to
alt.philosophy.epistemology or something...

> I think there's quite a big difference between this description, and the
> idea that TW is an application running on a datastore called TiddlySpace
> (Which was my understanding of something you had said elsewhere). I still
> think it's a big difference (hence misleading) but I doubt now whether the
> difference will be that important in the overall scheme of things. For
> different users, there may well be different descriptions.

Part of the fuzziness is the result of the several different visions
of people involved in creating the system and the documentation. The
great big tiddler database in the sky with many applications and tools
using them is the model that fits in (and comes from) my brain but
many consider that model too abstract.

> Yes, sorry, that was unnecessarily snarky on my part.

I didn't mind. I think a bit of snarky helps to keep the internet
moving. I remember the good ol days of constant goodhearted flame
wars.

> Yes, although I like "edit" for journalling on the bus.

That's part of why I made it. My hope is that tools like it can be
used as lego for people to build environments, piece-wise, that work
for them.

[Maitland Gill]

I've been working on a guide, so that newcomers like myself know how to use TiddlyWiki. However, I've reached a point where I can't go any further without some help. Everything I understand so far, can be seen here: http://theinvertedtower.tiddlyspace.com/Detailed%20instructions%20on%20how%20to%20use%20and%20modify%20TiddlyWiki

I don't really know how to use TiddlySpace, or Plugin's, or even how to connect with other users. What do you think we need to work on?

[Mat]

@Maitland Gill

It is important to note that there are significant differences between TiddlyWiki, TiddlyWikiClassic and TiddlySpace.

TiddlyWikiClassic (TWC) used to be "the only TiddlyWiki" and therefore simply known as TiddlyWiki at that time(!). Now when people say TiddlyWiki, they typically refer to the major reworked version TiddlyWiki5 (TW5). In other words: When people say TW they nowadays mean TW5. More on TW(...5) below.

A few years back came an exciting service known as TiddlySpace (TS) where you could easily set up on-line tiddlywikis for collaboration. The tiddlywikis here were built with a very different architecture from TWC, focussing more on individual tiddlers than the whole wiki. For instance, TWC has a kind of top down approach, "a wiki with tiddlers", whereas TS tiddlywikis are more centered around individual tiddlers - "tiddlers combined into a wiki". One major difference is that in a TS tiddlywiki you can include other peoples wikis into your own wiki, "live", so that changes they make to tiddlers also affect yours.

As you note, you can also "communicate" with others in TS. I would say you shouldn't bother with this though, at this stage. It won't be worth the effort, at this stage.

Unfortunately the architectural differences between a TS wiki and TWC means that a lot of what can be done in TS cannot be done with a TWC. (However, most of what you can do in TWC can also be done in TS.)

A year or so ago, TW inventor and chief developer Jeremy Ruston brought out a new brain child from his crypt; TiddlyWiki5 (the "5" refers to that it is built on/for html5 if I understand correctly). This is a total rework of TWC. While it has obvious similiartities to the eye, it is constructed in a whole other (and superior) way so you can't use any of the plugins and things from TWC other than perhaps the actual text in a TWC tiddler. Again, this is where the original TiddlyWiki changed name into TiddlyWikiClassic and this new creation is gradually taking over the name TiddlyWiki. TW(5) is the architecture we will keep "for the coming 25 years"! Yes, it is that good ;-)

Based on what you write here and in the TS-link you provide, I would suggest that you focus on TW5 and simply keep on playing around. You do mention collaboration as a goal with TW for you and while TS currently is the best solution for that I would say it is not a 100% satisfying one. A simple alternative could perhaps be to just store a TW(5) in a shared dropbox or google drive folder. Still not a 100% solution, but one major difference is that TW is being developed and there are steps towards more collaborative setups.

As you play around more and hang around here you will find that some of your questions are a bit odd in that you're focussing on things that are not very important or that can be considered a bit obscure for someone at your stage. For instance, text formatting with html in TW is in deed possible, but you'd primarily use other ways both in TWC/TS and TW5.

Ok, I probably don't answer your very questions but this gives you a background that IMO is of more value.

All best

<:-)

[Tobias Beer]

Great summary, Mat!

Best wishes, Tobias. 

[Danielo Rodríguez]

Very good summary mat! Really nice

[Maitland Gill]

Think you for you're insight.

TiddlySpace is a very strange website, compared to other services like Twitter or Tumblr. When I included the Spaces called faq and following, it changes the appearance of my home Space. It appears that new features, plugin's, and basic functions are added when you include different Spaces into you're own.

The Definition of a Space: A Space is an online Wiki that may be controlled by a single user, or with other members. The name of the Space which the user created upon registering, can be considered to be their username. But the Space and a user's account are two separate things. A user can see their account by clicking on the fish-egg symbol in the top-right corner. From there, a user can create a new Space.

But in the documentation, it says that the term 'User' refers to their 'Home Space'. But what would happen if the user was removed from their home Space (The first Space they started with)?

Is this a good explanation?

Do you have a "Space" that I can find? If so, then maybe we can work together on it? My TiddlySpace

TiddlySpace Documentation → User Guides → Socializing On Tiddly Space → How to Follow User or Space Activity

I still want to know how to add features (Plug-in's?) and change it's appearance (Such as the themes other people use). However, this seems to require a good understanding of how HTML is applied.

Is their a way you can include individual Tiddlers from other Spaces, besides making a copy of them? So if it becomes edited by it's User, it will be updated on you're own Space?

Also, is there someone else who could help?

I don't know how many times Google+ will let me post the same link to my Space, before it considers it spam. So it'll help if you could spread the word.

On Sunday, December 7, 2014 3:26:50 AM UTC+8, Mat wrote:

@Maitland Gill

It is important to note that there are significant differences between TiddlyWiki, TiddlyWikiClassic and TiddlySpace.

TiddlyWikiClassic (TWC) used to be "the only TiddlyWiki" and therefore simply known as TiddlyWiki at that time(!). Now when people say TiddlyWiki, they typically refer to the major reworked version TiddlyWiki5 (TW5). In other words: When people say TW they nowadays mean TW5. More on TW(...5) below.

A few years back came an exciting service known as TiddlySpace (TS) where you could easily set up on-line tiddlywikis for collaboration. The tiddlywikis here were build with a very different architecture from TWC, focussing more on individual tiddlers than the whole wiki. For instance, where TWC has a kind of top down approach, i.e "a wiki with tiddlers", TS tiddlywikis are more centered around individual tiddlers - "tiddlers combined into a wiki". One major difference is that in a TS tiddlywiki you can include other peoples tiddlers into your own wiki, "live", so that changes they make also affect yours.

As you note, you can also "communicate" with others in TS. I would say you shouldn't bother with this though, at this stage. It won't be worth the effort, at this stage.

Unfortunately the architectural differences between a TS wiki and TWC means that a lot of what can be done in TS cannot be done with a TWC. (However, most of what you can do in TWC can also be done in TS.)

A year or so ago, TW inventor and chief developer Jeremy Ruston presented brought out a new brain child from his crypt; TiddlyWiki5 (the "5" refers to that it is built on/for html5 if I understand correctly). This is a total rework of TWC. While it has obvious similiartities to the eye, it is constructed in a whole other (and superior) way so you can't use any of the plugins and things from TWC other than perhaps the actual text in a TWC tiddler. Again, this is where the original TiddlyWiki changed name into TiddlyWikiClassic and this new creation is gradually taking over the name TiddlyWiki. TW(5) is the architecture we will keep "for the coming 25 years"! Yes, it is that good ;-)

[Mat]

Tobias and Danielo - thanks for your compliments.

Maitland:

TiddlySpace is a very strange website, compared to other services like Twitter or Tumblr. When I included the Spaces called faq and following, it changes the appearance of my home Space. It appears that new features, plugin's, and basic functions are added when you include different Spaces into you're own.

Twitter or Tumblr are not very good comparisons. TiddlySpace is another concept. And, yes, as you note, when you include another space it's features and plugins are added to your own. However, note that the order in which things are included is important. They are executed from top -down in the "Included spaces" list.
 
 

The Definition of a Space: A Space is an online Wiki that may be controlled by a single user, or with other members. The name of the Space which the user created upon registering, can be considered to be their username. But the Space and a user's account are two separate things. A user can see their account by clicking on the fish-egg symbol in the top-right corner. From there, a user can create a new Space.

Yes IMO this is a good description (I wouldn't call it a definition because you include some side information, but anyway). Another way to create a new space is to somply type it in the url, ie: <newspacename>.tiddlyspace.com and, ah just test it.

 

But in the documentation, it says that the term 'User' refers to their 'Home Space'. But what would happen if the user was removed from their home Space (The first Space they started with)?

I actually don't know. But instead of sharing your account space with others, just create a new space and share that. Note that everyone who shares a space has the possibility to exclude other members.

 

Do you have a "Space" that I can find? If so, then maybe we can work together on it? My TiddlySpace

An idea might be for you to create a new space and then include my theme-a. (I hope it still works without problems.)

 

TiddlySpace Documentation → User Guides → Socializing On Tiddly Space → How to Follow User or Space Activity

I still want to know how to add features (Plug-in's?) and change it's appearance (Such as the themes other people use). However, this seems to require a good understanding of how HTML is applied.

No, no HTML. You just use inclusion. TS unfortunately suffers from the same problem TWC does, i.e that you don't know where to find those other plugins and themes. You must pretty much surf around or ask here on the boards etc. But even if you couldn't include spaces, there would still not really be any understanding of HTML required. It's typically just to copy-paste the content from tiddler in other spaces into your own. Open edit view, copy, go over to your space, create new tiddler, paste etc. Note that the tags can be crucial, such as the systemConfig tag.

 

Is their a way you can include individual Tiddlers from other Spaces, besides making a copy of them? So if it becomes edited by it's User, it will be updated on you're own Space?

This happens when you include another space. But individual tiddlers, as far as I remember, the TS system does not have a special ready made function for this.

 

Also, is there someone else who could help?

I don't know how many times Google+ will let me post the same link to my Space, before it considers it spam. So it'll help if you could spread the word.

Spread the word? You cannot count on anyone doing that for you. Besides, why would you want to spread it at this very rough stage?

Ok, hope this helps. A nice aspect with TS is that you can really create a zillion spaces as you experiment.

Also, this is not really the place for TS specific questions. Go here instead.  But do note that there is currently no development so it's not a very active list.


<:-)